The preferred tone and tenor in the Cafe

[matthew]

I've been reading the last several weeks worth of threads in here and I noticed a trend that needs to be changed.

For the most part, people are posting just for fun and/or informative threads. I like that.

What I don't like is that once this happens a small group of people are choosing to make dismissive, rude, and sometime blatantly offensive responses. This derails threads, causes unnecessary conflict, and makes the overall atmosphere in the Cafe appear unfriendly and unwelcoming. That is unacceptable.

I will be following things more closely in this section and asking others to do the same. I am asking staff to pay attention for the purposes of acting on issues they find. I am asking forum participants to please not respond to the sort of behavior I am describing, but to please report these sort of posts immediately.

Finally, while it is likely that infractions will issued each and every time this behavior is exhibited, my preference is that infractions would be unnecessary and that all of our forum members simply choose to follow the Forum Code of Conduct and treat other members with the utmost respect. If that can not be done, I would rather escort mean, derogatory, and rude people out of our forum than allow the behavior to continue. A short term mess is worthwhile if it is in exchange for a more positive atmosphere in the long term.

The Cafe has always been one of my favorite parts of the Ubuntu Forums, going back to my first posts in April 2005. I would like to see the friendly, playful, and welcoming atmosphere we started with return to being the norm. Please help me.

[matthew]

I will be suggesting the following infraction scheme for staff to use in the Cafe starting now.

First time offense: official warning or 1 point infraction, with a 30 day expiration.

Second offense: 5 point infraction, with a 30 day expiration.

Third offense: 5 point infraction, with a 30 day expiration (this will result in a 30 day visit to the moderation queue, where every post must be approved by a staff member before it appears in the forums).

Fourth offense: user ban.

For especially egregious offenses or members with previous infractions, this process may be accelerated.

[bleeding±the±dead]

whats to stop someone just making a new account?

[matthew]

Nothing. We can ban the new accounts just as easily if the behavior is repeated...just as yours was.

[matthew]

Ah, I see you are back. That was quick. Goodbye, again.

[Kenny_Strawn]

I've been reading the last several weeks worth of threads in here and I noticed a trend that needs to be changed.

For the most part, people are posting just for fun and/or informative threads. I like that.

What I don't like is that once this happens a small group of people are choosing to make dismissive, rude, and sometime blatantly offensive responses. This derails threads, causes unnecessary conflict, and makes the overall atmosphere in the Cafe appear unfriendly and unwelcoming. That is unacceptable.

I will be following things more closely in this section and asking others to do the same. I am asking staff to pay attention for the purposes of acting on issues they find. I am asking forum participants to please not respond to the sort of behavior I am describing, but to please report these sort of posts immediately.

Finally, while it is likely that infractions will issued each and every time this behavior is exhibited, my preference is that infractions would be unnecessary and that all of our forum members simply choose to follow the Forum Code of Conduct and treat other members with the utmost respect. If that can not be done, I would rather escort mean, derogatory, and rude people out of our forum than allow the behavior to continue. A short term mess is worthwhile if it is in exchange for a more positive atmosphere in the long term.

The Cafe has always been one of my favorite parts of the Ubuntu Forums, going back to my first posts in April 2005. I would like to see the friendly, playful, and welcoming atmosphere we started with return to being the norm. Please help me.

I agree. Even though I have had some 1-point infractions on other things myself, such as posting cracks on the forums, I have had just as much harassment. Case in point: I ask users to stop calling me names other than my real one, and even created a new user account because of it, and they still call me names on purpose and for spite.

The Cafe is also my favorite part of the forums, and coming in second is Lucid Lynx Testing and Discussion. However, the Cafe is a real gift, and I embrace it.

I will try to report any of this behavior to you Mods, if I see any rude, dismissive, and/or blatantly offensive responses to informative Cafe threads. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

[matthew]

I will try to report any of this behavior to you Mods, if I see any rude, dismissive, and/or blatantly offensive responses to informative Cafe threads.
Thank you. This will be helpful.

[aliceinblunderland]

Ah, I see you are back. That was quick. Goodbye, again.


quick? not really.

and sorry "sheriff", or should that be dictator. but no it shouldnt, you arent one of the bad mods.

its a shame you refuse to look closer to home about problems, instead of blaming everyone else.

but denial is easier than reality huh?

[matthew]

bye

[The Toxic Mite]

I am always watching for posts that have the potential to offend someone. Or just general spam. :-)

[matthew]

and goodbye
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1032102

From post 2:

– Classic Troll Tactic Number 5: When all else fails, claim to be leaving forever. Trolls who claim they are leaving never do, of course; you can bet that anyone who proclaims, "I'm never coming back here," will most certainly at least check back for responses, and probably will not be able to resist posting again.

[xuCGC002]

I have a gut feeling that things will only get worse from here on out.

[KiwiNZ]

Our option is to close the Cafe. I am sure members do not want that . I don't . But if it continues to consume a lot of the staff time that may well be the result.

[Giant Speck]

I love how Page 1 is essentially Exhibit A of what not to do.

[KiwiNZ]

I have moved some off topic posts from here . Please stay on topic. This is a serious discussion.

[matthew]

My guess is there is a bet as to who can push the line the furthest before infractions are issued. Please call the bet off and move on to a different game, one that doesn't cause trouble. Thank you. Oh, and thank you, Kiwi.

[KiwiNZ]

My guess is there is a bet as to who can push the line the furthest before infractions are issued. Please call the bet off and move on to a different game, one that doesn't cause trouble. Thank you. Oh, and thank you, Kiwi.

+1

And you know I am not backward in coming forward in giving hefty infractions.

[gymophett]

The cafe seemed to of changed drastically over the past 6 months. I was gone from the friendliest forums I'd ever know for a while, and only to come back greeted rudely.
I love this place. Everyone feels like family to me. I'll try and report things also so the Cafe doesn't get shut down. I love it too much.

[SmittyJensen]

its because i reported all those "cool story bro" one-liner posts, huh? teehee. :popcorn:

[SmittyJensen]

The cafe seemed to of changed drastically over the past 6 months. I was gone from the friendliest forums I'd ever know for a while, and only to come back greeted rudely.
I love this place. Everyone feels like family to me. I'll try and report things also so the Cafe doesn't get shut down. I love it too much.
yeah but the sad part is everyone else thinks its cool and they start doing it too. =/

[schauerlich]

This is eerily reminiscent of the Last Days of the Backyard/OMGPP. In before someone makes a replacement forum off site?

[matthew]

This is eerily reminiscent of the Last Days of the Backyard/OMGPP. In before someone makes a replacement forum off site?
It is eerily similar. We are taking a different tack this time, though. We absolutely want the Cafe to remain, so we are going to be much more strict for a while and either convince people to change their posting style or get rid of the people who are damaging the community.

[Giant Speck]

This is eerily reminiscent of the Last Days of the Backyard/OMGPP. In before someone makes a replacement forum off site?

Well, with the significantly reduced traffic, they can bring back such features as the "thanks" button! :D

[Satoru-san]

Well, with the significantly reduced traffic, they can bring back such features as the "thanks" button! :D
That would be nice, I have had serveral people I wanted to thank. :)

And it would also be nice not to ever have to report something again.

[KiwiNZ]

This is eerily reminiscent of the Last Days of the Backyard/OMGPP. In before someone makes a replacement forum off site?

It really isn't hard . All we want is people to remember this

"Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness. If you do this the rest of the code of conduct won't need more than a cursory mention"

It's from the Code of Conduct that every member agreed to. If it is followed then there is no drama. Very simple , very clean and everyone has a good time.

[OrangeCrate]

I've been reading the last several weeks worth of threads in here and I noticed a trend that needs to be changed.

For the most part, people are posting just for fun and/or informative threads. I like that.

What I don't like is that once this happens a small group of people are choosing to make dismissive, rude, and sometime blatantly offensive responses. This derails threads, causes unnecessary conflict, and makes the overall atmosphere in the Cafe appear unfriendly and unwelcoming. That is unacceptable.

I will be following things more closely in this section and asking others to do the same. I am asking staff to pay attention for the purposes of acting on issues they find. I am asking forum participants to please not respond to the sort of behavior I am describing, but to please report these sort of posts immediately.

Finally, while it is likely that infractions will issued each and every time this behavior is exhibited, my preference is that infractions would be unnecessary and that all of our forum members simply choose to follow the Forum Code of Conduct and treat other members with the utmost respect. If that can not be done, I would rather escort mean, derogatory, and rude people out of our forum than allow the behavior to continue. A short term mess is worthwhile if it is in exchange for a more positive atmosphere in the long term.

The Cafe has always been one of my favorite parts of the Ubuntu Forums, going back to my first posts in April 2005. I would like to see the friendly, playful, and welcoming atmosphere we started with return to being the norm. Please help me.

An interesting thread...

I can certainly empathize with you on this topic Matthew, and I sincerely hope you, and the other staff members, can put the toothpaste back into the tube.

However, there has been a long established laissez-faire attitude regarding topics and behavior in the Cafe, a brat pack appears to have moved in, and I don't hold much hope that tightening up the topics and behavior now is going to do much good.

What's been proposed in this thread smacks of the old business joke, "firings will continue until morale improves".

Though I question the effectiveness of what you're proposing to do here, I'm certainly on your side on this issue.

Good luck.

[matthew]

Thanks.

It is hard to balance a desire to truly let people be themselves with another desire to have people treated appropriately. The conflict boils down to a clash of values: free speech vs. the freedom not to be treated like dirt. :)

Based on the last few months in the Cafe, it is time for the pendulum to swing...

[sertse]

It's all very well to get frustrated and demand people to be nicer, but there is another side of the coin; In turn people need to be....nudged to make better posts.

The number of times I just want to "facepalm", (for lack of a better word) after reading something has increased. I empathise sometimes with the curt responses. At times I feel the CoC has coddled ignorant opinions, giving them credibility and allowing them to spread and lowering the quality of what discussed on the forums overall.

This to me is worse than an occasional telling off. There used to be an "unspoken" agreement where the CoC protect things from getting nasty, but in return we should try to make good posts. That imo, has been abused to accept anything as legitimate.

[matthew]

Ignorance is not against the CoC and may be corrected with politeness just as it could be corrected with rudeness. Ignorant posting alone is not a reason to treat people poorly...although it could be a reason to report a post because it is sometimes done by people trolling for responses just to watch the chaos ensue.

[SuperSonic4]

I like the idea in theory but am apprehensive as to it's enforcement in practice. I can see the system being too open to abuse and I do not mean by members

[matthew]

I like the idea in theory but am apprehensive as to it's enforcement in practice. I can see the system being too open to abuse and I do not mean by members
I'm afraid that our lax enforcement for months (years?) has led to serious abuse by members. As I said, it is a difficult balance. Our honest intent and real goal is to be fair in encouraging people to feel welcome here, to foster the existence of an open and enjoyable environment that is fun and, within the bounds of the Forum CoC, also free.

It is not an easy balance, so I share your apprehension.

[Dobbie03]

I know when I first joined I was overwhelmed with the help I received and the friendliness of the board, that opinion has changed somewhat.

[SuperSonic4]

I'm afraid that our lax enforcement for months (years?) has led to serious abuse by members. As I said, it is a difficult balance. Our honest intent and real goal is to be fair in encouraging people to feel welcome here, to foster the existence of an open and enjoyable environment that is fun and, within the bounds of the Forum CoC, also free.

It is not an easy balance, so I share your apprehension.

I don't think it's been that bad, perhaps I've just not noticed it. Either way good luck and que sera, sera

[Tristam Green]

Ignorance is not against the CoC and may be corrected with politeness just as it could be corrected with rudeness. Ignorant posting alone is not a reason to treat people poorly...although it could be a reason to report a post because it is sometimes done by people trolling for responses just to watch the chaos ensue.

The problem is that kindness only goes so far, and it does go both ways. Staff, as a general rule with very few exceptions, have always been kind-hearted folk.

I won't deny that I've been repeatedly guilty of the posts you outlined in the OP, matthew. I will not deny that some of them are condescending in nature, because I mean them to be when I do post them with that intention in mind. I will defend those posts though, because there are some actions I see as pretty well intolerable - ignorance in the face of advice, belligerence, and condescension without just reason. I see all three from various posters in the Cafe (where I spend the vast majority of my time, evident from my low bean count), all the time.

While I certainly will keep the acidic tongue in check, I won't reduce myself to a sycophant (I doubt you expect that of us regardless).

Every site with any good sized amount of following goes through periods like this. I am sure you and the other staff members will handle it properly, because overall you've kept the Cafe tame (Backyard deletion notwithstanding, but hey...roll with the punches am I right?). I hope the Café comes out a better place because of it.

[gymophett]

I know when I first joined I was overwhelmed with the help I received and the friendliness of the board, that opinion has changed somewhat.

Exactly. If new users are greeted to this, what will make them want to stay?
I know this community sure is the thing that made Ubuntu all worth while. Not that it wasn't anyway.

[xuCGC002]

Looking through my recent posts I can definitely recognize myself as part of the problem. I am deeply sorry for offending anybody, but I have been going through some problems recently and I think I might of used the forums as a bit of an outlet. So here on out I'll keep as civil as I can.

My main reason for my other post is that the new tenor may be recognized as an abuse of power by the staff. But so far, it seems to be handled quite well.

[Giant Speck]

My only concern is where the line between acceptable and not acceptable will be drawn and how solid will that line be.

I mean, will sarcasm be considered too inappropriate? Or facetiousness? Will going off-topic be punishable, despite the fact that the entire Cafe is off-topic in nature? Will short, somewhat off-putting responses such as "facepalm" or "cool story, bro" be considered unacceptable?

[matthew]

How about this, at least for a while as we get things under control and try to restore a good natured form of communication in here: when in doubt, don't?

[chucky chuckaluck]

"will sarcasm be considered too inappropriate?"

perhaps. at which time, the forum title should be changed to 'community cotillion'. it may be cynical of me to suggest that, when trying to suit the largest number of people possible, one suits none, but i've always been a bit gloomy. hopefully, all will turn out to be "the best of all possilble worlds".

[matthew]

'community cotillion'
That's probably overstated, but it does make the point in a humorous way. My perspective is that there is a difference between how people communicate in their own home vs. in a community. From that standpoint, you aren't far off.

[chucky chuckaluck]

That's probably overstated, but it does make the point in a humorous way. My perspective is that there is a difference between how people communicate in their own home vs. in a community. From that standpoint, you aren't far off.

it's inevitable that all 'quirky little upstarts' who go mainstream, become more conservative and restrictive in nature. whether one regrets that or not (i do), it's just a fact that has to be accepted, or one has to move on. (etc., etc....skipping ahead to my main fear...)
it would be a shame, for me, for this place to swing all the way from 'quirky little upstart' to 'stepford wives downloading salisbury steak recipes'. i'd rather we all stay in the middle where none of us are happy, but we can live with it. (i'm sure there's point in there...somewhere...)

[matthew]

it's inevitable that all 'quirky little upstarts' who go mainstream, become more conservative and restrictive in nature. whether one regrets that or not (i do), it's just a fact that has to be accepted, or one has to move on. (etc., etc....skipping ahead to my main fear...)
it would be a shame, for me, for this place to swing all the way from 'quirky little upstart' to 'stepford wives downloading salisbury steak recipes'. i'd rather we all stay in the middle where none of us are happy, but we can live with it. (i'm sure there's point in there...somewhere...)
I wholeheartedly agree.

[chucky chuckaluck]

I wholeheartedly agree.

i do remember you from 'the old days'...

[click4851]

+2 "the beatings will continue till moral improves..." save time change the name to Pink Ponies....and close it.

[matthew]

+2 "the beatings will continue till moral improves..." save time change the name to Pink Ponies....and close it.
I'm afraid that is neither a particularly helpful comment nor a positive one. Instead, it is a bit passive aggressive. If this is your true perspective, then you may as well not even bother posting in this section as attitudes like this are what would be most likely to speed it's demise rather than assist in its resurrection.

[Sef]

"will sarcasm be considered too inappropriate?"

One must remember that sarcasm - which can be funny or insulting - is indicated by the tone in one's voice. That is lacking when one writes. Also what is funny to you can be insulting to someone else.

[Nevon]

I find it quite insulting and quite frankly appaling that the staff feels it needs to "change the users' attitudes". This forum is by far the most strictly moderated forum I have ever been a part of, and this is not my first time on the internets. I can fully understand the need for quite strict moderation policies in the support forums, but I really don't see why the community café needs to be so harshly controlled.

It's sad to see that it will now become even more controlled by the staff, but I suppose that's what happens in time - as chucky chuckaluck said.

[kio_http]

How about keeping all offenders in a sub-forum for themselves and seeing how they behave there. If its good then welcome them back, if not then its the ban.

[kio_http]

This forum is by far the most strictly moderated forum



I shudder to think what would happen if it wasn't!

[The Toxic Mite]

I find it quite insulting and quite frankly appaling that the staff feels it needs to "change the users' attitudes". This forum is by far the most strictly moderated forum I have ever been a part of, and this is not my first time on the internets. I can fully understand the need for quite strict moderation policies in the support forums, but I really don't see why the community café needs to be so harshly controlled.

It's sad to see that it will now become even more controlled by the staff, but I suppose that's what happens in time - as chucky chuckaluck said.

I don't agree with you. The Cafe's basically spinning out of control, at the moment. Therefore I agree with the administrators' decisions to introduce tougher methods of moderation in the Cafe.

One day, you'll be thankful for that.. ;)

[pelle.k]

I don't agree with you. The Cafe's basically spinning out of control, at the moment.
Lately i've been thinking exactly the same thing.
The thing matthew said, about a small group of individuals that are making rude (etc) responses is right on the money. A brat pack indeed.

I applaude the effort, matthew and co!

[The Toxic Mite]

I applaude the effort, matthew and co!

I second that!

[Grenage]

While the moderation is pretty good here, the one thing that does irk me is the occasional closing of threads for no real reason. I'm not talking about the abuse-ridden moans, just simple long threads that are admittedly pointless but cause no harm.

Closing a thread in the CC with 'this thread has run it's course' or the like, when there is nothing remotely offensive in it is silly (imho).

[The Toxic Mite]

While the moderation is pretty good here, the one thing that does irk me is the occasional closing of threads for no real reason. I'm not talking about the abuse-ridden moans, just simple long threads that are admittedly pointless but cause no harm.

Closing a thread in the CC with 'this thread has run it's course' or the like, when there is nothing remotely offensive in it is silly (imho).

I partly agree with you, but I think they mean "This thread has run it's course" as in "The thread's gettign a wee bit out of control".

[SuperSonic4]

Some topics deserve sarcastic replies yet don't break the rules - like the one which asked if murder is illegal. Saying "yes" is seen a curt and condescending

Without sarcasm there'd be no point in anything. Plus I'm concerned about the unaccountability of staff in this matter, it's an unwritten rule that no decision should be overturned on appeal

[The Toxic Mite]

Some topics deserve sarcastic replies yet don't break the rules - like the one which asked if murder is illegal. Saying "yes" is seen a curt and condescending

Without sarcasm there'd be no point in anything

I hate sarcasm with a passion!

Seriously, sarcasm has the potential to annoy anyone, really.

[SuperSonic4]

I hate sarcasm with a passion!

Seriously, sarcasm has the potential to annoy anyone, really.

Well, don't worry. I'm sure you'll be protected from it in the real world

[Berk]

I hate sarcasm with a passion!

Seriously, sarcasm has the potential to annoy anyone, really.

You say that, with that avatar? Seriously?

[The Toxic Mite]

You say that, with that avatar? Seriously?

lolwut

[Berk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_RLY%3F


The phrase "O RLY?" ("Oh, really?") is typically used in a sarcastic or sardonic manner, often in response to a statement that the speaker feels is obvious, or blatantly false and/or self-contradictory.

[matthew]

Some topics deserve sarcastic replies yet don't break the rules - like the one which asked if murder is illegal. Saying "yes" is seen a curt and condescendingIt helps if a smiley like this :rolleyes: or this ;) or this :roll: or a <sarcasm> tag of some sort is used. By itself, sarcasm translates very poorly to print.


Without sarcasm there'd be no point in anything. Plus I'm concerned about the unaccountability of staff in this matter, it's an unwritten rule that no decision should be overturned on appeal
I have personally overturned decisions. Your statement is false.

[The Toxic Mite]

The main reason why I don't appreciate sarcasm is because it's done to express contempt, especially if it's pointed towards me.

[Berk]

Okay, now I am pretty sure you're just trolling.
I will leave you to it.

[chucky chuckaluck]

It helps if a smiley like this :rolleyes: or this ;) or this :roll: or a <sarcasm> tag of some sort is used. By itself, sarcasm translates very poorly to print.

if only swift had used emoticons in "a modest proposal"...

side note: i've been told that i'm even less animated in person.

[Yes]

if only swift had used emoticons in "a modest proposal"...

side note: i've been told that i'm even less animated in person.

You'd be surprised at how many kids in my class thought Swift was being serious.

Plus, I imagine it's more difficult for non native English speakers to discern what is and isn't sarcasm.

[The Toxic Mite]

Okay, now I am pretty sure you're just trolling.
I will leave you to it.

I am not trolling, thank you very much...

:|

[Nevon]

I shudder to think what would happen if it wasn't!

Welcome to the internet. I think you'll find that most forums get by just fine without it.

[KiwiNZ]

Welcome to the internet. I think you'll find that most forums get by just fine without it.

Professional support forums are moderated.

[Icehuck]

Professional support forums are moderated.

This is true and most of the time the moderators are paid. It would be great if Canonical paid you guys.

[kio_http]

Welcome to the internet. I think you'll find that most forums get by just fine without it.

True, they attract a different kind of community than the one we want here in order to keep a good reputation for Ubuntu in general

[Giant Speck]

Professional support forums are moderated.

Community Cafe isn't a professional support forum. I understand that Ubuntu Forums as a whole is a professional support forum, but I find it difficult to expect the same level of professionalism out of an off-topic forum such as the Community Cafe.

[kio_http]

Community Cafe isn't a professional support forum. I understand that Ubuntu Forums as a whole is a professional support forum, but I find it difficult to expect the same level of professionalism out of an off-topic forum such as the Community Cafe.

If you want the Ubuntu community to have a good reputation then the whole of the forum should be decent and civilized.

[koleoptero]

Wow, what a discussion. I believe more moderation is needed and it's a good thing you decided to take that step. Too many threads dwindle in flamewars lately, and in general the whole atmosphere has deteriorated.

Don't forget though that the regular users too need to have the right attitude. Mods can't change the cafe by themselves.

[The Real Dave]

This is true and most of the time the moderators are paid. It would be great if Canonical paid you guys.

They definitely do a good job :) I agree with the need to calm things down a bit, but there's always going to be some banter, and to get rid of it would in itself have a negative impact. Its especially true with members who know each other, there's definitely plenty of friendly banter, and as far as I'm concerned, that's needed. Adds to the whole family feeling :)

So big yes getting rid of condescending and insulting posts, but within reason :)

Apologies if my post was rather pointless...

[KiwiNZ]

Community Cafe isn't a professional support forum. I understand that Ubuntu Forums as a whole is a professional support forum, but I find it difficult to expect the same level of professionalism out of an off-topic forum such as the Community Cafe.

We can expect the Code of conduct to be followed and courtesy applied.

[Nevon]

Professional support forums are moderated.

Definitely. I'm a moderator over at one of Sweden's largest youth-oriented forums. I'm just saying that most forums get by just fine without the kind of iron-fist moderation that is the norm here - without having any more abusive forum comments, etc.

[KiwiNZ]

Definitely. I'm a moderator over at one of Sweden's largest youth-oriented forums. I'm just saying that most forums get by just fine without the kind of iron-fist moderation that is the norm here - without having any more abusive forum comments, etc.

History does not support your view point

[NightwishFan]

I would really like to see less negative comments in the Community Cafe, although the general weal of the discussion is usually positive and to my liking. Also the moderators always seem to be very fair. Please keep up the good work and reinforce positive behaviour and we can keep the CC going. I would like to do my part as well, and refrain from fueling the fire on any derogatory messages. I too like the discussions and people in these forums and I hope to post here for a while to come.

Keep it up mods, and good luck.

[Nevon]

History does not support your view point

I understand the need for tougher moderation here, as the forum as a whole represents a professional operating system. What I'm saying is that there are other moderation policies that can be successfully adopted. I personally have never seen much success with simply becoming harsher and not accepting sarcasm or any kind of even semi-heated debates. It doesn't drive away the real pricks, it simply drives away those who enjoyed the spirit of the community.

But that's just the experience I've had in my years of moderating. I hope things work out for you, and that you are open minded enough to actually take the criticism you get seriously, and re-evaluate this new policy has had in a couple of months to see what effects it has had on the community.

[KiwiNZ]

I understand the need for tougher moderation here, as the forum as a whole represents a professional operating system. What I'm saying is that there are other moderation policies that can be successfully adopted. I personally have never seen much success with simply becoming harsher and not accepting sarcasm or any kind of even semi-heated debates. It doesn't drive away the real pricks, it simply drives away those who enjoyed the spirit of the community.

But that's just the experience I've had in my years of moderating. I hope things work out for you, and that you are open minded enough to actually take the criticism you get seriously, and re-evaluate this new policy has had in a couple of months to see what effects it has had on the community.

We have tried relaxed policies twice in the past. "The Back yard" , and "Pink ponies" and have both resulted in chaos that eventually spread into the rest of the Forum. We lost a number of good staff members and good members as a result. We do not want that again.

So we do have open minds, and we do have considerable experience at this. A number of us built this forum to what it is now a very successful and still growing venture that has won much praise.

[t0p]

Community Cafe isn't a professional support forum. I understand that Ubuntu Forums as a whole is a professional support forum, but I find it difficult to expect the same level of professionalism out of an off-topic forum such as the Community Cafe.

Actually Ubuntu Forums is not a professional support forum. It is an amateur support forum. Before anyone takes offence at that and bans me, I am using the word "amateur" in its original and true sense: indicating someone who does something for the sheer love of it. There's this terrible trend now to use "amateurish" to mean bad and "professional" to mean good. Anyone with life experience will know that you often get the best results in any field from the amateurs - those who do it for the love of it - and get awful results from the professionals - those who do it day in day out and have become jaded and cynical.

Could someone please provide some links to the kind of posts matthew is on about? I haven't noticed any real change of atmosphere here in recent months. And if I'm supposed to avoid a particular type of behaviour, it would help if I knew what type of behaviour it is I'm supposed to avoid...

[KiwiNZ]

Could someone please provide some links to the kind of posts matthew is on about? I haven't noticed any real change of atmosphere here in recent months. And if I'm supposed to avoid a particular type of behaviour, it would help if I knew what type of behaviour it is I'm supposed to avoid...

scan the jail would be a start;)

[KiwiNZ]

Actually Ubuntu Forums is not a professional support forum. It is an amateur support forum. Before anyone takes offence at that and bans me, I am using the word "amateur" in its original and true sense: indicating someone who does something for the sheer love of it. There's this terrible trend now to use "amateurish" to mean bad and "professional" to mean good. Anyone with life experience will know that you often get the best results in any field from the amateurs - those who do it for the love of it - and get awful results from the professionals - those who do it day in day out and have become jaded and cynical.

Could someone please provide some links to the kind of posts matthew is on about? I haven't noticed any real change of atmosphere here in recent months. And if I'm supposed to avoid a particular type of behaviour, it would help if I knew what type of behaviour it is I'm supposed to avoid...

I used the term Professional as the Forum is owned by a Corporate. The staff have formal IT qualifications.

EG I have 15 years + IT experience 10 years + in senior management and 4 IT Qualifications.

[chucky chuckaluck]

scan the jail would be a start;)

civilians can't view the jail.

[Satoru-san]

How do you find out if you have any infractions, I said something mean once, and I am sorry I did it.

[matthew]

scan the jail would be a start;)


civilians can't view the jail.
It's true. We made the jail staff only, except that non-staff may view their own posts that end up there. We did this a long time ago to prevent the posts from 1) being indexed by search engines and 2) giving spammers a helping hand. I think Kiwi just forgot for a moment.

To answer the original question: there has been an uprise in reported posts and general ugliness in the Cafe. I can't prove it to you directly, but staff are free to examine the jail, the reported posts forum, and their own level of burnout from dealing with unnecessary issues here.

I love the Cafe. The forums would be less enjoyable without it by a longshot. For that reason, I'm not threatening to remove the Cafe, but rather anyone who fails to post within the CoC. This isn't a new rule, just one we are working to enforce more consistently.

It's like when people get away with driving in excess of posted speed limits--eventually when those limits are enforced, some get cranky because they get caught even though they never should have been speeding in the first place, but after a very short time, the average speed of traffic slows down to within legal limits and people are safer (and traffic actually flows more smoothly overall). Welcome to the speed trap: people already following the rules have no reason to worry whatsoever.

[matthew]

How do you find out if you have any infractions, I said something mean once, and I am sorry I did it.
I just looked: you don't have any. If you did, it would show up in your profile (visible only to staff and the recipient).

[nothingspecial]

We lost a number of good staff members and good members as a result. We do not want that again.

Yes we did, and if this new policy prevents similar situations then I support it.

[schauerlich]

I can't remember the quote exactly, but it went something like this: edit: it's an xkcd, found the real quote

"More harm has been done by people panicked over societal decline than societal decline ever did."

Maybe this is an example of that?

Also: /b/ The Cafe was never good.

[matthew]

Also: /b/ The Cafe was never good.
You are free to post elsewhere. There are many of us who would disagree (and who would and do claim it is still a good place, if different from its original state).

[Giant Speck]

I can't remember the quote exactly, but it went something like this:

"More harm has been done because of fear of social decline than social decline itself has caused."

You're quoting an XKCD strip.

[schauerlich]

You are free to post elsewhere. There are many of us who would disagree (and who would and do claim it is still a good place, if different from its original state).

Sorry, perhaps I should explain the reference.

"/b/ was never good" is the canned response for when people complain about how "it used to be so much better before all of these other people came," "back in the good old days...," "this band was good until they got on the radio and went maintream...," etc. I didn't mean the Cafe was literally bad, it's just that people need to have perspective.


You're quoting an XKCD strip.

Figures.

[KiwiNZ]

I can't remember the quote exactly, but it went something like this:

"More harm has been done because of fear of social decline than social decline itself has caused."

Maybe this is an example of that?

Also: /b/ The Cafe was never good.

I do not and will not accept bad behavior. I do not and will not accept harassment and there has been examples of that of late.

It is not clever to be rude, it is the opposite.

Its all quite simple " Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness. If you do this the rest of the code of conduct won't need more than a cursory mention."

If people feel that they are unable to comply with that membership of this community is not compulsory.

[Giant Speck]

I think one of the major problems that has plagued the Community Cafe was the relaxing of the "tech-related posts only" rule that I seem to remember being in place during OMGPP's tenure. Since OMGPP closed, the Community Cafe has been more open to off-topic threads that have nothing to do with technology.

[23meg]

Will short, somewhat off-putting responses such as "facepalm" or "cool story, bro" be considered unacceptable?

They should definitely be considered unacceptable if ~90% of the entire contribution of an active poster over several months is "lol" + "Cool story bro." + "facepalm" + "This." + "Your idea sucks because I say so", and my understanding is that most of the recent wave of negativity has been caused by such posts.

[matthew]

They should definitely be considered unacceptable if ~90% of the entire contribution of an active poster over several months is "lol" + "Cool story bro." + "facepalm" + "This." + "Your idea sucks because I say so", and my understanding is that most of the recent wave of negativity has been caused by such posts.
That is part of it. Memes are fun, but when that is all a person posts, it just annoys people and contributes to a negative atmosphere. There are other places where this is the norm and very welcome, so I would politely suggest those who desire to post like this go to those places.

[Giant Speck]

They should definitely be considered unacceptable if ~90% of the entire contribution of an active poster over several months is "lol" + "Cool story bro." + "facepalm" + "This." + "Your idea sucks because I say so", and my understanding is that most of the recent wave of negativity has been caused by such posts.

Yes, but negativity doesn't always equate to rudeness. I do agree that if all a user posts is useless, one-lined, negative drivel, then they shouldn't be welcome because they are not actually contributing anything to the forums other than reaction; however, I think a user's overall reputation should be considered when dealing with possibly out-of-line comments.

A user's reputation really says a lot. A user's reputation tends to define the difference between that user being a random troll or an outspoken individual. If we judged each other by single posts, almost all of us would be guilty of something eventually.

For example, if I were to simply type "Cool story, bro" instead of everything I just typed, would you jump to the conclusion that this is something I always type? Would you assume that based on that post alone, that I am a troll seeking nothing more than an opportunity to cause mischief?

[matthew]

I think a user's overall reputation should be considered when dealing with possibly out-of-line comments.

A user's reputation really says a lot. A user's reputation tends to define the difference between that user being a random troll or an outspoken individual. If we judged each other by single posts, almost all of us would be guilty of something eventually.
I completely agree. I generally look at a person's posting history and infraction record before acting on a bad post, except in the most egregious of cases. This is also something staff are encouraged to do.

[23meg]

however, I think a user's overall reputation should be considered when dealing with possibly out-of-line comments.

Hence my saying "~90% of the entire contribution of an active poster over several months". Such people are hard not to notice and tell apart from people whose occasional snarky comment is and should be tolerable.

[kio_http]

For those saying that moderation is tough here, this would not be the case if there were fewer hard cases.Its certain that the the conditions toughen the more control is needed. At times this would cause misunderstanding whose justifications are not often accepted easily. If we want fewer innocent victims, its simple, follow the rules properly and moderation tactics will decrease.

[HappinessNow]

It appears that there is more of a systematic attack against the Ubuntu Forums Cafe from rogue members that would appear to make sport of Ubuntu Forums; the bulk of regular members here are friendly and awesome.

I wonder if there is any way technically to prevent these rogue members from entering into the cafe?

Since the cafe isn't the place for beginners to seek technical support is it possible to make access to the cafe only available to established members (minimum post count and/or age of account) in good standing (no current infractions)?

In this way the cafe would become an earned privilege through long standing members who exhibit good behavior, thus making the need for moderation less likely. Established members in good standing and the forum staff could then enjoy the cafe fully once again. With out the beast of burden of continued attacks from rogue members.

[KiwiNZ]

It appears that there is more of a systematic attack against the Ubuntu Forums Cafe from rogue members that would appear to make sport of Ubuntu Forums; the bulk of regular members here are friendly and awesome.

I wonder if there is any way technically to prevent these rogue members from entering into the cafe?

Since the cafe isn't the place for beginners to seek technical support is it possible to make access to the cafe only available to established members (minimum post count and/or age of account) in good standing (no current infractions)?

There is, but as adults we would expect members to follow the rules of the community as they do the rules of society.

It is an option we can employ.

[Elfy]

... only available to established members (minimum post count and/or age of account) in good standing (no current infractions)?

Shall we make it 1 year and 100 posts in support forums - or would that be not the right level to suit you personally? Making people post in support forums is just likely to cause more issues as the support forums become flooded with 'useless' or 'nonsense' posts in order to bump up a post count artificially.

The trouble with trying to do anything like that is someone somewhere will always be on the wrong side of the fence.

What is needed is for people to follow the CoC regardless of how long they have been here not set up arbitrary limits which would accomplish little.

[HappinessNow]

There is, but as adults we would expect members to follow the rules of the community as they do the rules of society.

It is an option we can employ.


Shall we make it 1 year and 100 posts in support forums - or would that be not the right level to suit you personally? Making people post in support forums is just likely to cause more issues as the support forums become flooded with 'useless' or 'nonsense' posts in order to bump up a post count artificially.

The trouble with trying to do anything like that is someone somewhere will always be on the wrong side of the fence.

What is needed is for people to follow the CoC regardless of how long they have been here not set up arbitrary limits which would accomplish little.

Good points, I was just wondering if something like that might work?

At the beginning of this thread there was multiple post by the same person under different names, it would be nice to prevent this kind of behavior.

Most people here I find do uphold the CoC, but I am seeing it more as a regular member. I try to report, and then ignore obvious people who just want to make sport of the forums.

I do hope change comes for the better and when regular members and staff sign in we can all look forward to better posting habits.

[kio_http]

Since the cafe isn't the place for beginners to seek technical support is it possible to make access to the cafe only available to established members (minimum post count and/or age of account) in good standing (no current infractions)?

members who exhibit good behavior.

I second this. Users should be allowed to use the cafe according to past record of posts in the cafe. It there is a tendency to violate the TOS, then no cafe for those users. Of course this would mean even more work for moderators in the res center.

To accomplish the task of enforcing the COC, we need even more moderators (good long established members with a good record.)

We need a system for making people volunteer to be mods then the current staff chose who is eligible.

[NightwishFan]

I think I agree with forestpiskie. There would be new and well meaning individuals who are unable to post on topics that aren't just for the support forum.

I think that if respect is given, respect may be returned. There are many good people out there who will not let an ill post affect their discussion.

[howefield]

There is, but as adults we would expect members to follow the rules of the community as they do the rules of society.

That would be a reasonable expectation were all members adults.

It has been some time since I registered and can't remember exactly what happens, but could the CoC, Faq ect be more prominently displayed to new members, either by way of email (link) or welcome pm.

It may well already be the case, I'm not sure.

[chucky chuckaluck]

What I don't like is that once this happens a small group of people are choosing to make dismissive, rude, and sometime blatantly offensive responses.

looking back at what matthew said in the op, the problem is a 'small group of people'. the solution is to deal with them, not keeping new people out of the cafe, or turning the cafe into a more restrictive area. the latter punishes the innocent and does nothing about the 'small group of people'. just deal with them. if it's a lot of work for the moderators, then that's the problem with a large forum. get more moderators, even if the only area they deal with is the cafe. in short, i'm saying the existing rules should be enforced, not new rules made.

[bapoumba]

looking back at what matthew said in the op, the problem is a 'small group of people'. the solution is to deal with them, not keeping new people out of the cafe, or turning the cafe into a more restrictive area. the latter punishes the innocent and does nothing about the 'small group of people'. just deal with them. if it's a lot of work for the moderators, then that's the problem with a large forum. get more moderators, even if the only area they deal with is the cafe. in short, i'm saying the existing rules should be enforced, not new rules made.

No new rules have been made, all that has been proposed already exists.

Couple points that have not been discussed so far :

- After we closed some areas of UF, other forums have taken over these discussions (BY, Ponies, OOT). If the moderation seems too drastic here, please use them. you should find the same users over there, with a more relaxed moderation. It's not like there are no other options. And there are many other resources dedicated to happy joyful and unleashed banter.
We draw lines here, and the Cafe has been crossing the line for some time now.

- Matthew did not post the OP out of the blue. Several Staff members had been pointing out the Cafe had changed, more reports were made from Cafe posts. Not for religion or politics which are clearly not welcomed, members know it and rarely contest a thread closure. Rather mockeries, abrasive answers contributing to a very negative atmosphere. This is what we are trying to change. Same as above, there are other resources on the internet where these are welcomed.

- More moderators are on the way in. UG is very busy with personal and work things. We have already been through the proposal and discussion process last month, he'll be ready when he'll be ready. I'm not in favor of Cafe (or any other area, minus the LoCos using native languages) specific Staff. We give and do here what we like giving and doing. The privilege of being volunteers :)
Of course, the CoC applies everywhere at all times. No big news.

[kio_http]

looking back at what matthew said in the op, the problem is a 'small group of people'. the solution is to deal with them, not keeping new people out of the cafe, or turning the cafe into a more restrictive area. the latter punishes the innocent and does nothing about the 'small group of people'. just deal with them. if it's a lot of work for the moderators, then that's the problem with a large forum. get more moderators, even if the only area they deal with is the cafe. in short, i'm saying the existing rules should be enforced, not new rules made.

I agree, a possible way of dealing with them is to restrict past offenders access to the cafe.

It is due to this "small group of people" that enforcement has toughened. This has both its ups and downs. While it does mean that discipline will stay, it also means that the rest of us have to take extreme care when posting in the cafe.

[HappinessNow]

I think I agree with forestpiskie. There would be new and well meaning individuals who are unable to post on topics that aren't just for the support forum.


I have to agree with forestpiskie too, these are some really good points.


the latter punishes the innocent and does nothing about the 'small group of people'. just deal with them. if it's a lot of work for the moderators, then that's the problem with a large forum. get more moderators...i'm saying the existing rules should be enforced, not new rules made.

An increase in moderators would lighten the load on current staff and help to keep the peace.



- More moderators are on the way in. UG is very busy with personal and work things. We have already been through the proposal and discussion process last month, he'll be ready when he'll be ready. I'm not in favor of Cafe (or any other area, minus the LoCos using native languages) specific Staff. We give and do here what we like giving and doing. The privilege of being volunteers :)
Of course, the CoC applies everywhere at all times. No big news.

This is very good news and a worthy solution.

To the existing staff and the all Ubuntu Forum members who utilize the "report post" feature, I salute you on a job well done. Let us all be responsible members of the community and keep our cafe an enjoyable one to come and visit online. Let's not let a few bad apples spoil it for the rest of us, and let's all take it upon ourselves to maintain the preferred tone and tenor in the cafe that Matthew speaks of in the OP.

I commit myself as a regular Ubuntu Forums member to maintain a positive and enjoyable tone and help to assure that a respectful tenor is maintained. I will do this in my posting habits, and threads; I also will use the "report post" when needed and not respond to obvious rogue members.

I do enjoy the cafe and trust that most members here do as well, let us all adopt the appropriate tone and tenor as Matthew and the rest of the staff as well as a majority of us regular Ubuntu Forum members would like to see. Let us all help keep the cafe a wonderful place online that we can enjoy in the spirit of Ubuntu, Linux and the FOSS community. :p

Prost!

今幸福

[MichealH]

I remember the first time I posted in this Cafe and I had got addicted. I have always wanted to help the cafe out by posing respectably and sensibly. When I see bad behavior on the Cafe I would always report it because I wouldn't be here right now If it wasn't for the Cafe. When I have helped people I chill out in this area and Contribute to the current discussions, Screenshot Threads and many more. I really love this month in particular I had made the Screenshot thread and ever since seeing that September 2009 Thread when I joined and wanting to post my own. I wouldn't want to get rid of all the great memories/activity to come.

I would kindly be in favor of keeping a sharp eye out for abusive/offensive behavior over the next week in particular because I am on holiday but I will keep an eye 24/7 still.

My Laptop is going to be special for 2 reasons:

1) It is my First laptop and I got it at 12 years old. I used It alot and will always till it dies.
2) It was the ONLY computer I would browse the forums on and Where I customized Ubuntu and had a laugh on the screenshot thread (In a nice way). Also "Chillaxing" on the forums Cafe and watching debates and joining in.

I have reported Spam on 2 instances before and I am not afraid to hit the report abuse button on any behavior that is unacceptable or rude. In the 2 instances I reported span I say it was one of those spam bots which was advertising their website on the forums. I watched for any more advertisements. They had their last one They were permanently banned from the forums. I have kept thinking It was a bad thing but actually its a good thing I know I am helping the forum grow and Develop because I HATE spam.

I want to keep the Community Cafe and In which reporting the behaviour that matthew (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=17635) had mentioned in his post (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8816797&postcount=1).

Thankyou and I am relieved I let that out because I feel the Cafe is the best thing that happened to these forums.

--MichealH--

[Bodsda]

I like the idea of the Cafe becoming a friendlier place, my only problem is with the current offenders. The way I see it there are the pointless and somewhat annoying posts like 'cool story bro' or '/facepalm' or 'no' etc. that serve absolutely no purpose what so ever. Then there are the condescending wannabe smart allecs who correct every little mistake that people make. I dont see very often people being out right rude.

So, what happens to these two groups? Well, if you try and moderate the 'First Post!!' guys, you are just gonna gain yourself an argument because in their eyes they have done nothing wrong. If you try and moderate the condescending smart allecs, you end up with a pointless political waste of time, which ends in the staff supporting each other until the user is silenced. This happens 90% of the time with these incidents from what I can tell by reading the resolution center. However, as the staff point out every now and again, the average user cannot see the whole picture, so does not know whether or not the staff are supporting each other correctly or not. I am not making a digg at staff by the way, I think you do a great job.

So I really don't see how this is gonna work. I have reported these types of people numerous times and from what I can see, my report is ignored each time. Probably due to no violation of the CoC happening, but they are degrading the experience of the Cafe.

If staff are asking members to report posts that are not in the spirit of the Cafe then you better be prepared to act on the reports. I could probably go through this thread and pick out 3 or 4. I defintaely could go through the Cafe front page and make several reports, but, would you listen?

Bodsda

[KiwiNZ]

I like the idea of the Cafe becoming a friendlier place, my only problem is with the current offenders. The way I see it there are the pointless and somewhat annoying posts like 'cool story bro' or '/facepalm' or 'no' etc. that serve absolutely no purpose what so ever. Then there are the condescending wannabe smart allecs who correct every little mistake that people make. I dont see very often people being out right rude.

So, what happens to these two groups? Well, if you try and moderate the 'First Post!!' guys, you are just gonna gain yourself an argument because in their eyes they have done nothing wrong. If you try and moderate the condescending smart allecs, you end up with a pointless political waste of time, which ends in the staff supporting each other until the user is silenced. This happens 90% of the time with these incidents from what I can tell by reading the resolution center. However, as the staff point out every now and again, the average user cannot see the whole picture, so does not know whether or not the staff are supporting each other correctly or not. I am not making a digg at staff by the way, I think you do a great job.

So I really don't see how this is gonna work. I have reported these types of people numerous times and from what I can see, my report is ignored each time. Probably due to no violation of the CoC happening, but they are degrading the experience of the Cafe.

If staff are asking members to report posts that are not in the spirit of the Cafe then you better be prepared to act on the reports. I could probably go through this thread and pick out 3 or 4. I defintaely could go through the Cafe front page and make several reports, but, would you listen?

Bodsda

Staff do act act on reports . However they do not reply to the reporter. In some cases considerable discussion takes place between staff before action is taken.

[KiwiNZ]

It is worth stating here that this is not a new policy for the Cafe. The rules for the Cafe have always been here. What is happening is a more active enforcement due to recent activity.

[Bodsda]

Staff do act act on reports . However they do not reply to the reporter. In some cases considerable discussion takes place between staff before action is taken.

Staff act on some reports, but do not reply to the reporter regardless of the decision. So I spend time reporting posts that you ignore, how will the average member ever be able to distinguish where this elusive line of being worthy of report is?

Bodsda

[KiwiNZ]

Staff act on some reports, but do not reply to the reporter regardless of the decision. So I spend time reporting posts that you ignore, how will the average member ever be able to distinguish where this elusive line of being worthy of report is?

Bodsda

I did not say that ,you have mis quoted me

[Icehuck]

Staff act on some reports, but do not reply to the reporter regardless of the decision. So I spend time reporting posts that you ignore, how will the average member ever be able to distinguish where this elusive line of being worthy of report is?

Bodsda

The point is that users are to report that which they think doesn't belong. They staff then checks the possibly offending post and take the appropriate action. Just because you report it doesn't mean the post is actually breaking any rules. If it breaks the rules the user either gets an infraction or the post gets edited.

If you just want recognition of a person getting in trouble after you report them, then it's not going to happen. It's not your business if they received a punishment or not. If you want confirmation of punishments being handed out, then I want the ability to confront my accuser.

[Bodsda]

I did not say that ,you have mis quoted me

No I didn't - See attachment

Bodsda

[Bodsda]

The point is that users are to report that which they think doesn't belong. They staff then checks the possibly offending post and take the appropriate action. Just because you report it doesn't mean the post is actually breaking any rules. If it breaks the rules the user either gets an infraction or the post gets edited.

If you just want recognition of a person getting in trouble after you report them, then it's not going to happen. It's not your business if they received a punishment or not. If you want confirmation of punishments being handed out, then I want the ability to confront my accuser.

I couldn't care less whether or not someone gets an infraction from a report I make. Would I would like to know, is whether or not my report was worthy of being made. If it isn't, then surely I am wasting the staff's time by reporting posts which should not be reported?

Bodsda

[NightwishFan]

I think it worthy to bring something rude, offensive, or illegal to the mods attention before it gets out of hand.

[KiwiNZ]

No I didn't - See attachment

Bodsda

I stated " Staff do act act on reports"

You have said "Staff act on some reports "

That is wrong

[KiwiNZ]

I couldn't care less whether or not someone gets an infraction from a report I make. Would I would like to know, is whether or not my report was worthy of being made. If it isn't, then surely I am wasting the staff's time by reporting posts which should not be reported?

Bodsda

We appreciate the reports very much , we simply do not have the time. To example why , so far today , we have received over 60 reports to look at and fro me its just after midday.

Remember staff are volunteers

[Bodsda]

I stated " Staff do act act on reports"

You have said "Staff act on some reports "

That is wrong

The statement 'Staff do act on reports' implies that they act on every report, or at least, that is the way I understood the statement. The next question would be what defines an act? Is an act deciding whether or not a report is worthy? If it is, then I was indeed incorrect, if it is not, and an act is giving a warning/infraction, then I was correct. Either way, I did not mis quote.


We appreciate the reports very much , we simply do not have the time.

Remember staff are volunteers

I fully understand that the staff are volunteers, and I would not expect a response to every report, but if I was reporting, say a signature, and then tomorrow I reported another signature with the same content, if neither signature was edited should I stop reporting what I think is an inappropriate signature or should I keep reporting them over and over?

I am not trying to cause an argument here KiwiNZ, I am just trying to figure out where this line is.

Bodsda

[KiwiNZ]

What can happen with a report

1. It can be report multiple times ( often is)

2. Looked at no further action taken deemed OK

3. Post edited/moved. No further action

4. Post jailed. No further action

5. Post jailed/edited , warning issued

6. Post jailed/edited , infraction issued

7. Incident deemed serious, discussion with other staff and decision as to further action made this may include referral to Forum Admins and or Forum Council.

At any point between 1 and 7 discussion can and does take place between the staff and the member concerned.

[Bodsda]

What can happen with a report

1. It can be report multiple times ( often is)

2. Looked at no further action taken deemed OK

3. Post edited/moved. No further action

4. Post jailed. No further action

5. Post jailed/edited , warning issued

6. Post jailed/edited , infraction issued

7. Incident deemed serious, discussion with other staff and decision as to further action made this may include referral to Forum Admins and or Forum Council.

At any point between 1 and 7 discussion can and does take place between the staff and the member concerned.

Im still struggling to see where this line is KiwiNZ. I guess im not gonna see it tonight. Im off to bed, thanks for the info on reports though, that is interesting.

Have a good day,

Bodsda

[gsmanners]

I only report 3 things:

1) Spam
2) Possibly illegal activity
3) Obvious and cruel personal attacks

Lesser offenses don't really bother me (anymore), and I imagine the mods spend a lot more time dealing with lesser offenses. I think if we as a community don't take the lesser offenses as personally, we would enjoy the forums more.

A harsh but teasing insult from a poster can be overlooked, but an overly-harsh reprimand from a mod cannot be overlooked.

[matthew]

I couldn't care less whether or not someone gets an infraction from a report I make. Would I would like to know, is whether or not my report was worthy of being made. If it isn't, then surely I am wasting the staff's time by reporting posts which should not be reported?

BodsdaIf the report wasn't acted on in the way you wanted or thought it should, then you probably misinterpreted the CoC or didn't see something that staff were able to discover. It really is that simple.


The statement 'Staff do act on reports' implies that they act on every report, or at least, that is the way I understood the statement. The next question would be what defines an act? Is an act deciding whether or not a report is worthy? If it is, then I was indeed incorrect, if it is not, and an act is giving a warning/infraction, then I was correct. Either way, I did not mis quote.
Staff act on every single report. Sometimes the action is simply noting for other staff that the issue was investigated and deemed unworthy of further action. Usually this is done by more than one person. That is still an act taken by staff, whether you see it or not.


I fully understand that the staff are volunteers, and I would not expect a response to every report, but if I was reporting, say a signature, and then tomorrow I reported another signature with the same content, if neither signature was edited should I stop reporting what I think is an inappropriate signature or should I keep reporting them over and over?

I am not trying to cause an argument here KiwiNZ, I am just trying to figure out where this line is.

Bodsda
If you report similar things multiple times and they are never acted upon, that would lead to a reasonable conclusion that you don't need to report that behavior.

Look, if you call the police on a neighbor because you think something nefarious is happening, they generally do not come to your house to discuss the matter after they investigate. If this bothers you, don't report things. I'm really not sure why this is such a big issue that it requires so much discussion...:confused:

[matthew]

I only report 3 things:

1) Spam
2) Possibly illegal activity
3) Obvious and cruel personal attacks

Lesser offenses don't really bother me (anymore), and I imagine the mods spend a lot more time dealing with lesser offenses. I think if we as a community don't take the lesser offenses as personally, we would enjoy the forums more.

A harsh but teasing insult from a poster can be overlooked, but an overly-harsh reprimand from a mod cannot be overlooked.
The three you mention are very high on our list and will be dealt with quickly and those reports are appreciated.

The problem with your other category is that the definition of "lesser offenses" is different for most people. This is far clearer and easier to abide by:

Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness. If you do this the rest of the code of conduct won't need more than a cursory mention.

[gymophett]

I don't think I can stand this place anymore, the way people are starting to act is just getting outrageous.

[KiwiNZ]

I don't think I can stand this place anymore, the way people are starting to act is just getting outrageous.

If you are feeling like this you should take a break away.

Remember 99% of members are awesome

[unknownPoster]

I don't think I can stand this place anymore, the way people are starting to act is just getting outrageous.

It really depends on which side of the fence you stand on. Some people find the current state of things to be terribly entertaining, others are very concerned and upset about it.

Along the same lines, some feel UF has become to restrictive while others feel it is too free.

In my opinion, it's terribly difficult to find a balance. Although some of us prefer the extremes.

[KiwiNZ]

It really depends on which side of the fence you stand on. Some people find the current state of things to be terribly entertaining, others are very concerned and upset about it.

Along the same lines, some feel UF has become to restrictive while others feel it is too free.

In my opinion, it's terribly difficult to find a balance. Although some of us prefer the extremes.

You are right.

It will surprise many when I say that I would love to be able to free things up more. But experience nags at me and says no.

I would love to see some of the old areas back again , such Other OS Talk and yes even The Backyard but history has shown that they just do not seem to work here. The actions of a small minority scuttle them and that is sad.

[NightwishFan]

I did not post for a while, nearly a year until a few months ago and the forums changed a lot. LaRosa was gone, and the other OS talk as well. Though perhaps it was for the best and we can probably work out a happy medium.

[unknownPoster]

I did not post for a while, nearly a year until a few months ago and the forums changed a lot. LaRosa was gone, and the other OS talk as well. Though perhaps it was for the best and we can probably work out a happy medium.

To be honest, I don't think anyone really wanted either of those events to happen. Unfortunately, it came down to facts rather than opinions. LaRoza broke the rules, albeit in an unusual and non-malicious way, and the server simply could not handle the load of the activity of particular subforums.

[sertse]

I was sure Other Os Talk was removed due to technical (server) issues and policy changes, (Ubuntu wanting to focus on Ubuntu), rather than any problems with the people there. I think you've lurked in it's current carnations before, and it was mostly pleasant experience..

[clanky]

My guess is there is a bet as to who can push the line the furthest before infractions are issued. Please call the bet off and move on to a different game

I would very much doubt that anyone is so organised as to actually have a competition or bet to see who can get closest to the line, however, it is human nature to push the boundaries a bit.

I know that I occasionally come pretty close to the line (I have just had a PM telling me so!), but for the most part my posts are meant in good humour and when I am trying to make a point to someone who is being stupid I generally try and be more respectful then I would when I am just messing with someone.

I am sure that you already do, but I think you need to look at the intentions behind posts as well as the words in them.

[Berk]

If the report wasn't acted on in the way you wanted or thought it should, then you probably misinterpreted the CoC or didn't see something that staff were able to discover. It really is that simple.


Look, if you call the police on a neighbor because you think something nefarious is happening, they generally do not come to your house to discuss the matter after they investigate. If this bothers you, don't report things. I'm really not sure why this is such a big issue that it requires so much discussion...:confused:

Am I wildly misinterpreting their posts, or are you? All I see is someone asking where the actual line is? What they should be reporting?
Not someone asking for a response to their every report with a detailed breakdown of the response complete with a full history of the reportee's life.

[Tristam Green]

It will surprise many when I say that I would love to be able to free things up more. But experience nags at me and says no.

It's refreshing to hear these words, amidst the clamor of the contrary.


I would love to see some of the old areas back again , such Other OS Talk and yes even The Backyard but history has shown that they just do not seem to work here. The actions of a small minority scuttle them and that is sad.

I don't know though. The actions of a small minority can never outweigh the physical power of those who actually..."have power?" on the server, if you take my meaning. I've always been of the persuasion that while yes, the forum is fairly free, it's still a privately-owned forum (unless I would be mistaken), so whomever's name is in red....their say goes. It's fairly authoritarian, but it works and people are generally still free to say what they want.


I am sure that you already do, but I think you need to look at the intentions behind posts as well as the words in them.

I agree with this, and it is the primary reason why I disagree wholly with the "attach a :) to the end of your sentence to denote sarcasm" idea. A person can just as easily have poison in his speech with a smile on his face as one who does not.

Granted, it's hard to read intentions (ever) in text...

[chucky chuckaluck]

It will surprise many when I say that I would love to be able to free things up more. But experience nags at me and says no.

a little bit. everyone is for their own freedom. it is the freedom of others that becomes a problem. some people just don't seem to use it right.


I would love to see some of the old areas back again , such Other OS Talk and yes even The Backyard but history has shown that they just do not seem to work here. The actions of a small minority scuttle them and that is sad.

you and bapoumba have stated that nothing new is being proposed here, but if that is the case, why bring it up at all? why not use the time to reprimand the trouble makers? experience tells me that these type of threads precede the closing/recoloring of various areas. it may not be the current intention, but you all may end up feeling you have no other choice. (i'm just sayin'...)

[matthew]

you and bapoumba have stated that nothing new is being proposed here, but if that is the case, why bring it up at all? why not use the time to reprimand the trouble makers? experience tells me that these type of threads precede the closing/recoloring of various areas. it may not be the current intention, but you all may end up feeling you have no other choice. (i'm just sayin'...)
I brought this up I wanted to give people a fair warning and give a chance to fix behavior without the necessity of infractions and all that. I have no interest nor desire to punish people. It isn't fun for me. I would rather just see things work the way they are supposed to work. That isn't realistic, but it is my honest preference. This thread is kind of like the sign about 50 meters before the photo radar installation--it gives people a chance to amend their behavior before they have to face consequences.

[bapoumba]

I couldn't care less whether or not someone gets an infraction from a report I make. Would I would like to know, is whether or not my report was worthy of being made. If it isn't, then surely I am wasting the staff's time by reporting posts which should not be reported?

Bodsda
Please be sure every single report gets read. Without real statistics, I'd say one report out of 10 or 15 remains without action (I'm not talking about spam, everyone agrees on that). We state the "no action" status of the report. Sometimes, it takes a couple reports on the same account for us to make a move. I think it is always better to wait in case of doubt rather than act wrongly. And we talk a lot in the reports. Sometimes it takes a day or 2 before we all agree and do something (timezones).


I think it worthy to bring something rude, offensive, or illegal to the mods attention before it gets out of hand.
Yes. those usually get handled right away. When you see a thread closure for review, that means we deemed necessary to close the thread on the spot to prevent any further addition and need other's input regarding the closure or cleaning.



you and bapoumba have stated that nothing new is being proposed here, but if that is the case, why bring it up at all? why not use the time to reprimand the trouble makers? experience tells me that these type of threads precede the closing/recoloring of various areas. it may not be the current intention, but you all may end up feeling you have no other choice. (i'm just sayin'...)
Why bring it up ? Just to say : hey, please get the memo, the Cafe is not going in the right direction, we'd like to have it back on tracks, so no surprise. Just like when we made the no politics no religion rules. There is no plan to close the Cafe as far as I know. I think the Cafe is unclosable, necessary and essential to UF. Some behaviors are not.

[chucky chuckaluck]

I brought this up I wanted to give people a fair warning and give a chance to fix behavior without the necessity of infractions and all that. I have no interest nor desire to punish people. It isn't fun for me. I would rather just see things work the way they are supposed to work. That isn't realistic, but it is my honest preference. This thread is kind of like the sign about 50 meters before the photo radar installation--it gives people a chance to amend their behavior before they have to face consequences.

that makes sense. two thoughts, though... i have to wonder if i'm one of those people, and, aren't the ones it's directed to most likely driving too fast to read the sign?

[matthew]

that makes sense. two thoughts, though... i have to wonder if i'm one of those people, and, aren't the ones it's directed to most likely driving too fast to read the sign?
I haven't seen any of your posts reported in a VERY long time and I haven't run across anything from you that was controversial in a long time either. While I obviously don't/can't see everything, I really think you are fine.

As to the last phrase about the one's the thread is directed toward missing the warning, it is possible. In any case, fair warning was given. :)

[chucky chuckaluck]

I haven't seen any of your posts reported in a VERY long time and I haven't run across anything from you that was controversial in a long time either. While I obviously don't/can't see everything, I really think you are fine.

i don't chase the other puppies around the yard anymore, either.


As to the last phrase about the one's the thread is directed toward missing the warning, it is possible. In any case, fair warning was given. :)

yup. might as well cover the "it's not like we didn't warn you" base.

looks like my work here is done. back to screwing up my laptop.

[steveneddy]

looks like my work here is done. back to screwing up my laptop.

Well said - HEAR, HEAR!

[hhh]

Oh, I see. You can be a *word I said* all you want, just don't say that word, because that's one of the George Carlin words.

[jfl]

I agree that the forum has changed; less friendly...
I have seen excellent forums in totally different field go to pot for lack of moderation; the problems were created by a very small group. OTOH a similar one which is heavily moderated is an enjoyable place to be.

If there are no rules (enforced) the "good guy" always loses to the "bad guy"; it is not fair, but who said life was fair ;)

If a people behaved, societies would not need laws ...

In short: Yes, I believe we need more moderation, at least for some time.

[hobo14]

On the other hand, this is going to encourage overzealous reporting.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1408437
A silly thread where the OP makes an admittedly ridiculous complaint about MS, but in post #9, someone threatens to report him for it!

This is just crazy. I know the OP was voicing an opinion that almost no-one else would agree with (I certainly don't agree with him), but he didn't break any rules here, or disrespect any members; there's absolutely no justification for reporting him at all.

I hope no mod would consider action against him just for posting an unpopular complaint, and I hope all mods can keep themselves centred in the face of an increase in spurious reports like this.

[gsmanners]

Reporting someone is one thing. Threatening to report someone is forum vigilantism, and to my mind breaches the CoC. It certainly shows a patronizing lack of respect for the other poster.

[matthew]

Reporting someone is one thing. Threatening to report someone is forum vigilantism, and to my mind breaches the CoC. It certainly shows a patronizing lack of respect for the other poster.

Then you just report that, too. I've dealt with that sort of thing as well.

[robertcoulson]

Thank goodness we have watch dogs like you Matthew....I would not like to see the cafe disappear....
Robert

[NightwishFan]

I agree, the mods do an excellent job. They are always polite and helpful and I have not had a disagreement with any. Keep up the good work.

[hobo14]

Thank goodness we have watch dogs like you Matthew....I would not like to see the cafe disappear....
Robert

I'm an admirer of Matthews moderation style too, but I find this post quite ironic. If the cafe does disappear it will be because Matthew (or someone like him) makes it disappear...;)

[The Toxic Mite]

Matthew's moderation style is pretty good.

I don't understand what's wrong with forum vigilantism though. Aren't we supposed to help combat these unruly people? Huh? :confused:

[gsmanners]

The problem with all forms of vigilantism is that they always rush forward to punishment without a thought for due process. It's also rude to the authorities, whose job it is to administer the rules.

[matthew]

Matthew's moderation style is pretty good.

I don't understand what's wrong with forum vigilantism though. Aren't we supposed to help combat these unruly people? Huh? :confused:

Usually the person doing so means well, but it is nearly always counter-productive. Also, it is against the Forum CoC (http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy) (for that very reason). Section I, number 10.

If you have found a post that you feel is inappropriate or that violates the forum code of conduct, please use the report post function. Do not attempt to moderate discussions or correct other users yourself.

[matthew]

Oh, and for those giving them, thank you for the kind words. :)

[JackRock]

I built and admin a paintball forum with the same software.

I can say that in my several years' experience of building and admining forums, it is HIGHLY NECESSARY to crack down in moderation once in a while. Every single forum I've been a part of, be it paintball or any other topic, has run up against users who just detract from the feel of the forum and its intentions. Then we staff had to go in and use a heavy hand.

We also prefaced such episodes with notices like Matthew's here. That way, when the INEVITABLE complaint of "well, you never punished me for that before" came up, we could then point them to a the warning thread and say "We were being nice before...and you took advantage. Good bye".

But banning and the like is not fun for admins and mods. So these warning also serve as a possible pre-remediation of the behavior. Meaning that users who are worth keeping around but have been pushing the line will reign themselves back in. Those who will continue to be jerks just keep on their activity and they are the ones who are ultimately banned/infractioned/reported.

If you're not sure about a particular behavior and think it violates the CoC, REPORT IT. Don't worry about if you're wrong or right. Report it, and maybe PM a mod about it later. "Hey, was that a valid post? I notice it wasn't removed, so I just want to make sure those types of comments are fine at UF.org". Eventually, you get a better sense of what is or is not acceptable on the forums. Bottom line: if a post violates the idea of common courtesy, then report it.

And common courtesy doesn't mean you have to agree with everybody. Hell, it's courtesy to tell the truth, albeit in a TACTFUL WAY. Disagreements are part of life, but there is no need to make those statements in a rude fashion. What's being reported is not the content, but the tone.

So, for those of you who are worried about the sudden "heavy moderation", then you're probably worried that you yourself are doing something wrong. If so, then stop it. For those of us who see this as "Hey, it'd be good to have a feel-good place to chat in again", then you're probably okay.

[Naiki Muliaina]

Mixed feelings about this post. I got the hump a while ago cause of all the one word meme responses giving me the impression this place was unfriendly and rude. Worse so when a mod joined on with a 'google it' kinda comment. So im sorta glad somethings being done about it.

However, i also sort of agree with something Chucky said. If its a small group of people doing it all the time, heavy modding might not be the best thing to do. Its something that could probably be dealt with with a quick IM from a mod saying 'Alright lads, thats enough, calm down on the memes and rudeness'. Once the main ones stop the atmosphere / culture of their attitudes would fade out, and normal service could resume. Heavy modding may push people of the forum. Well.... Banning certainly would.... Is that really necessary when a quick IM would probably do?

[t0p]

I'm interested to know how a ban works. Of course you can ban a particular username; but that's easily changed. You can ban a specific IP address; but these often change. You can ban an IP range; but many innocent users of the same ISP will be banned too. You can use a cookie system; but it's easy to get rid of cookies.

Or does the forum software use browser fingerprinting like at panopticlick.eff.org (https://panopticlick.eff.org/)? That could be an extremely effective way to identify a particular user: according to Panopticlick my browser fingerprint "appears to be unique among the 642,388 tested so far." Is that what's used?

[Tristam Green]

I'm interested to know how a ban works. Of course you can ban a particular username; but that's easily changed. You can ban a specific IP address; but these often change. You can ban an IP range; but many innocent users of the same ISP will be banned too. You can use a cookie system; but it's easy to get rid of cookies.

Or does the forum software use browser fingerprinting like at panopticlick.eff.org (https://panopticlick.eff.org/)? That could be an extremely effective way to identify a particular user: according to Panopticlick my browser fingerprint "appears to be unique among the 642,388 tested so far." Is that what's used?

You keep an eye on things. If you notice that the same username is used from a single IP address, *then* you IP ban.

Almost *never* do IP range bans exist.

All else fails, nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[clanky]

I'm interested to know how a ban works. Of course you can ban a particular username; but that's easily changed. You can ban a specific IP address; but these often change. You can ban an IP range; but many innocent users of the same ISP will be banned too. You can use a cookie system; but it's easy to get rid of cookies.

Or does the forum software use browser fingerprinting like at panopticlick.eff.org (https://panopticlick.eff.org/)? That could be an extremely effective way to identify a particular user: according to Panopticlick my browser fingerprint "appears to be unique among the 642,388 tested so far." Is that what's used?

This sort of stuff usually isn't necessary, in most forums I have ever been involved with banned users who create a new account do one of 2 things -

1. they occasionally realise the error of their ways and use the second account to stop being a douche - result forums win

or the other 99% of the time

2. rush in and mak their first post a huge bitch about how they got banned / how the forums staff suck / some random troll post and get insta - banned again anyway - result forums win or at worst a draw and a replay.

[MichealH]

I'm interested to know how a ban works. Of course you can ban a particular username; but that's easily changed. You can ban a specific IP address; but these often change. You can ban an IP range; but many innocent users of the same ISP will be banned too. You can use a cookie system; but it's easy to get rid of cookies.

Or does the forum software use browser fingerprinting like at panopticlick.eff.org (https://panopticlick.eff.org/)? That could be an extremely effective way to identify a particular user: according to Panopticlick my browser fingerprint "appears to be unique among the 642,388 tested so far." Is that what's used?

Well, I have seen lots of posts in the Resoloution Center where they have banned a user and They have came back. So that software isnt probalbly used Its probably

1- A username ban
2- A IP ban
3- Referal to court or something like that (possibly?)

In that order

[clanky]

3- referal to court or something like that (possibly?)

lol

[JSeymour]

... if I see any rude, dismissive, and/or blatantly offensive responses to informative Cafe threads. Thank you for pointing this out to me.The problem is that "rude" and "offensive" are in the eye of the beholder. As for "dismissive": If somebody writes something that's blatantly disingenuous, wrong, misinformed, etc.: Yeah, I might tend toward a dismissive attitude. I might well use sarcasm as a tool. But I promise: I'll try to be civil about it. ;)


I can say that in my several years' experience of building and admining forums, it is HIGHLY NECESSARY to crack down in moderation once in a while. Every single forum I've been a part of, be it paintball or any other topic, has run up against users who just detract from the feel of the forum and its intentions. Then we staff had to go in and use a heavy hand.IME: Jack's spot-on. The only forums where I've never seen this required are forums run with an iron fist--where trouble-makers are identified very quickly and, often, actually provoked into committing ban-able offenses.

In the end you have to trust the site admins and mods to know their customers/electorate/flock/whatever, and to run things more-or-less as most find most beneficial. *shrug* It's imperfect. People will get upset. Sometimes those people are people who've contributed a lot to a community and end up leaving over the disagreements. (Just happened on another forum to which I'm subscribed.) It happens. IME it's more-or-less unavoidable.

Jim

[mickie.kext]

I have one question. Considering that "Other OS talks" is closed, and that people who want to talk about it are asked to go to other forums... why do you tolerate Windows advocacy?

We all know who is wrecking havoc here and why this thread was necessary in the first place, just name of the group is usually gets sniped when mentioned.

[matthew]

I have one question. Considering that "Other OS talks" is closed, and that people who want to talk about it are asked to go to other forums... why do you tolerate Windows advocacy?
1. That is a false dichotomy.
2. We "tolerate" mentions of and even advocating several operating systems, we simply don't allow constant support requests for anything other than Ubuntu because we lack the resources to do so.

[unknownPoster]

We all know who is wrecking havoc here and why this thread was necessary in the first place, just name of the group is usually gets sniped when mentioned.

I think if you actually looked at who is causing trouble you'd be quite surprised.

[kio_http]

we all know who is wrecking havoc here and why this thread was necessary in the first place, just name of the group is usually gets sniped when mentioned.

+1

[Tibuda]

Or does the forum software use browser fingerprinting like at panopticlick.eff.org (https://panopticlick.eff.org/)? That could be an extremely effective way to identify a particular user: according to Panopticlick my browser fingerprint "appears to be unique among the 642,388 tested so far." Is that what's used?

The problem with this is that all you have to do to have multiple unique fingerprints is to change your user agent string or install a new font. Easier than changing proxies.

[JackRock]

The great thing about VBulletin is a nice couple of mods that makes banning more effective than other standard banning processes. Naturally, not being an admin, I couldn't say if these are installed/activated or not, but they can be quite easily.

[KiwiNZ]

I have one question. Considering that "Other OS talks" is closed, and that people who want to talk about it are asked to go to other forums... why do you tolerate Windows advocacy?

We all know who is wrecking havoc here and why this thread was necessary in the first place, just name of the group is usually gets sniped when mentioned.

There is no "one" group that is to blame. I will not tolerate any one group being singled out.

All members are welcome no matter where they are from , all we ask is they follow the COC.

[Frak]

There is no "one" group that is to blame. I will not tolerate any one group being singled out.

All members are welcome no matter where they are from , all we ask is they follow the COC.
Yep, be professional, well-versed, and polite, and everything will be alright.

[schauerlich]

Yep, be professional, well-versed, and polite, and everything will be alright.

It rhymes, so it must be true.

[Frak]

It rhymes, so it must be true.
Exactly, nothing rhymes with exactly.

[chucky chuckaluck]

Exactly, nothing rhymes with exactly.

fraktly: (adverb) to do something in a frak-like manner.

[Frak]

fraktly: (adverb) to do something in a frak-like manner.
I agree with this post.

[KiwiNZ]

Yep, be professional, well-versed, and polite, and everything will be alright.

That could be a song :p

[nothingspecial]

I might use it, if permission is granted:D

[Elfy]

I have one question. Considering that "Other OS talks" is closed, and that people who want to talk about it are asked to go to other forums... why do you tolerate Windows advocacy?

We all know who is wrecking havoc here and why this thread was necessary in the first place, just name of the group is usually gets sniped when mentioned.

This is wrong - at least the 'obvious' reading of this is wrong.


There is no "one" group that is to blame. I will not tolerate any one group being singled out.

All members are welcome no matter where they are from , all we ask is they follow the COC.

This I agree with

Exactly, nothing rhymes with exactly.


fraktly: (adverb) to do something in a frak-like manner.


I agree with this post.

Funktly enough I agree too.

[Elfy]

I might use it, if permission is granted:D

As long as you get a rhythm with fraktly that is in an Englsih english dictionary ...

[Frak]

That could be a song :p
I like songs.

[Elfy]

I like songs.

We all like songs - some of us also like Mike Oldfield.

Others like teapots.

[Frak]

We all like songs - some of us also like Mike Oldfield.

Others like teapots.
I like tea.

[chucky chuckaluck]

(what have i done? :confused: )

[Faolan84]

I think the best solution after having read about all of this drama is to keep things simple. The proper tone and tenor in the Cafe should be in key of "Bb" in the baritone octave register and the tenor should either be folksy or have a nice blues rhythm to it.

Also, I like my cafe to have a light scent of roasting beans as well. We should definitely get a roaster.

*ducks*

[KiwiNZ]

It is true that the staff and many members want a better tone in the Cafe that has been present of late.

I am one of them , however as an adult I have to accept that when I present myself in public, for public debate that I must allow myself to be open to strong debate. This is a public place with many very intelligent strong viewed members. They will not be backward in coming forward.

However strong debate still has its rules. One can be strong and abide by the rules of common courtesy.

It would be wrong for us as staff to stifle debate that is strong purely because it is strong.

[TheNosh]

It is true that the staff and many members want a better tone in the Cafe that has been present of late.

I am one of them , however as an adult I have to accept that when I present myself in public, for public debate that I must allow myself to be open to strong debate. This is a public place with many very intelligent strong viewed members. They will not be backward in coming forward.

However strong debate still has its rules. One can be strong and abide by the rules of common courtesy.

It would be wrong for us as staff to stifle debate that is strong purely because it is strong.

Pure, unadulterated truth!

[Frak]

Pure, unadulterated truth!
I hate truth. It makes it too easy to win arguments.

[Faolan84]

I hate truth. It makes it too easy to win arguments.

inorite? i just hate how the facts get in the way of my own egotistical delusions! why the audacity of veracity?!

[Frak]

inorite? i just hate how the facts get in the way of my own egotistical delusions! why the audacity of veracity?!
I agree with this post.

[schauerlich]

I hate truth. It makes it too easy to win arguments.

You should be a philosopher. The arguing never ends.

[chucky chuckaluck]

I hate truth. It makes it too easy to win arguments.

truth is a bit rigid, making switching gears when you're behind a field goal, less likely.

[phrostbyte]

Hi, I say this as someone with 90-95% of my posts in the Community Cafe.

I think there should be some kind of "karma system". Where to post in the Community Cafe, you need to like help lets say 1 person a week in the support forums. Or something like that, but some kind of system which encourages people to make support posts.

Also I think there should be some more forums. Something like a "Ubuntu/Linux General Discussion" forum, that isn't a support forum, but is only for discussing Ubuntu and/or Linux. This would be open to everyone.

To take this idea further, I want you to look at another site (I said this in a similar thread also):

Take a look at the site "StackOverflow", and notice the sheer quality of 99% of the posts on that site. It's no coincidence, the site ENCOURAGES people to post that way, with all kinds of "medals" and points you earn that make you more "powerful" on the site. There isn't even any mods on the site, it manages to self moderate itself.

If you can just replace this forum software with StackOverflow type software, I am very confident "the tone and tenor" of the whole place would shoot up considerably.

Just my two cents.

[Satoru-san]

I am not positive, but I don't think the right word is "tenor", I did some looking and it looks like the word is "tenure".

According to http://www.tuition.com.hk/geography/t.htm, tenure is:

Tenure -the conditions of occupancy of a piece of land.So if you want to post (or occupy a spot on the forum) you have to follow the conditions.

[matthew]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tenor


5. quality, character, or condition.

[schauerlich]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tenor

I prefer saxophones.

[matthew]

I prefer saxophones.

I believe you.

[thatguruguy]

The last thing this forum needs is more sax and violins.


EDIT: Thank you! I'll be here all week! Try the veal!

[KiwiNZ]

We are adding to our watch list repetitive pointless image posting, memes, posts containing just smilies for no obvious reason and excessive bumping.

Again we do not wish to stifle humor but if these are excessive and are hijacking a thread or are of a nuisance nature they will be removed and infraction may be issued.

[schauerlich]

We are adding to our watch list ... memes

Good luck...

Just sayin', this is a geeky part of the internet, memes will inevitably pop up.

[KiwiNZ]

The occasional is OK , but I have seen threads taken over by them and that really is not on. Its not fair on the others trying to read the real stuff in the thread concerned.
I know I am crazy Kiwi I just believe in a fair shot for all. If a thread if flooded with silly image posts by a few posters that is not a fair shot for all.

[uRock]

On a serious note. I don't venture to the Cafe often, but I have stumbled across some good conversations there. I hope you guys are using the same tactics on the T&E sub-forum. I would love to see some of the people that are bashing the Ubuntu haters with knowledge actually start posting in the help threads.

I wish the Mods good luck in pulling the weeds.

[kio_http]

If the amount of mods is high enough that automatically most of the threads get viewed by them, then it is certain that the situation won't get out of control.

[matthew]

If the amount of mods is high enough that automatically most of the threads get viewed by them, then there it is certain that the situation won't get out of control.

That is just not possible without increasing our staff ten-fold.

When I started here, I could read every single new post made each day in less than an hour. Later, I could keep up with the posts made in the previous hour, but not an entire day. Today, no one person could read every post in Absolute Beginners, so we have a team that focuses just on that section.

It is a nice idea, but not plausible. In addition, we really have a wonderful group of forum members who overwhelmingly post in accordance with the site rules or notify us when they discover abuse.

[schauerlich]

That is just not possible without increasing our staff ten-fold.

Conclusion: make me staff. :)

[MichealH]

Conclusion: make me staff. :)

You shouldnt of said that!


It has been said that the way not to become staff is to ask.

[Tristam Green]

You shouldnt of said that!

Arguably redacted, as LaRoza is/was fallen staff (RIP LR).

[MichealH]

I think I remember reading the CoC way back and I told us not to ask to be staff!

[Frak]

That is just not possible without increasing our staff ten-fold.

When I started here, I could read every single new post made each day in less than an hour. Later, I could keep up with the posts made in the previous hour, but not an entire day. Today, no one person could read every post in Absolute Beginners, so we have a team that focuses just on that section.

It is a nice idea, but not plausible. In addition, we really have a wonderful group of forum members who overwhelmingly post in accordance with the site rules or notify us when they discover abuse.
Too many cooks in the kitchen rule apply here?

[sertse]

One of my pet peeves is when someone either begins or end a post with "Please don't take offence/cause a flame war" when posting that is obviously provocative and hotly debated about.

Someone is of course going to be offended is you say something bad about someone/something. It is a right for them to want to rebut you and defend their POV. The poster should accept that and be prepared for it, if they going to be bold about their opinions, instead of using those weasel words and getting all insulted when the counter opinion inevitably comes.

Or more generally, "Either be prepared to back up your posts, or otherwise be willing to accept (or don't care if you are) being countered".

[Frak]

Or more generally, "Either be prepared to back up your posts, or otherwise be willing to accept (or don't care if you are) being countered".

I agree. Don't have a fit when somebody has a different opinion, or when you're just plain wrong. That's no reason to close a thread, and a great opportunity for the OP to learn humility.

[LinuxFanBoi]

How about keeping all offenders in a sub-forum for themselves and seeing how they behave there. If its good then welcome them back, if not then its the ban.

Thats like throwing them all in the prison yard with a single knife. While it may seem like a good PPV event, it solves nothing.

[Hwæt]

Conclusion: make me staff. :)

You're gonna need a lot of coffee if you plan on moderating the entire forum by yourself. :popcorn:

[OrangeCrate]

Conclusion: make me staff. :)

Shortly after you posted, I seem to remember that there was a response by KiwiNZ, that you were as good as "in" as a mod. Something about checking the news at 10:00, if I remember correctly.

Alas, it seems to be gone now, so, I would assume all bets are off...

:)

[cprofitt]

An interesting thread I had not read until now.

I think there are times when people may post thinking their response or post is witty and funny, but others find it rude or offensive. Usually the 'offending' party is quick to apologize when they then see how their post was taken as offensive... and usually those instances are rare and far between. It is best to really take your time in making a witty response -- try to pause and think about how it might be taken.

It is usually easy (as a moderator of other forums I found it to be easy) to tell the accidental offensive posts from the on-purpose inflammatory posts.

-----

In general these forums are well moderated by a team of volunteers that have been carefully selected for the task. I appreciate what the mods do.

Peace!

[koenn]

Alas, it seems to be gone now, ...

:)
probably got jailed for not having the right tone and tenor.

[Faolan84]

Did one of my posts get deleted in this thread. Oh well, I guess it wasn't of the appropriate tone and tenor for the Cafe :P Either that or I hit the wrong button.

EDIT: I was informed that post was moved to the Jail. My bad, I did not intend to offend anyone where with that post and it was all tongue-in-cheek. I'll make sure that in the future that my posts will be much clearer in intent.

[koleoptero]

I don't want to sound rude or ungrateful, but I believe it's time this thread is closed, or keep the OP as sticky and move the rest of the discussion in an unstickied thread to let it die in peace. It has become in the past few days a magnet for negativity rather than a good-natured discussion.

Anyway only a suggestion. :)

[kio_http]

That is just not possible without increasing our staff ten-fold.

Today, no one person could read every post in Absolute Beginners, so we have a team that focuses just on that section.


Absolute Beginners may be impossible (Anyway not much moderation is needed there). However, How about having enough moderators to read threads in Community discussions, that is where most of the trouble originates.

[Simon17]

I don't want to sound rude or ungrateful, but I believe it's time this thread is closed

Yes, I agree that this thread has really RUN ITS COURSE.

[uRock]

Looks like we have two new Moderators that want the thread closed?

[koleoptero]

Looks like we have two new Moderators that want the thread closed?

This response in this thread? Oh come on...

[KiwiNZ]

Please keep this on topic

[uRock]

Please keep this on topic

I am sorry if it was out of line. I just figured it was up to you when to close your own thread, not the fellow members.

[Nerd King]

I would very much doubt that anyone is so organised as to actually have a competition or bet to see who can get closest to the line, however, it is human nature to push the boundaries a bit.

I know that I occasionally come pretty close to the line (I have just had a PM telling me so!), but for the most part my posts are meant in good humour and when I am trying to make a point to someone who is being stupid I generally try and be more respectful then I would when I am just messing with someone.

I am sure that you already do, but I think you need to look at the intentions behind posts as well as the words in them.
You'd be surprised. I've seen it before on other forums. The usual pattern is a few disgruntled users form a spin-off, which then attracts every banned/troll user. Eventually they spend an inordinate amount of time trolling the original forum. People get a little obsessive and I've never seen it end pleasantly.

[Giant Speck]

I love how this thread is inching ever so slowly to a specific forum that everyone wants to say, but don't have the guts to actually say, regardless of the fact that what they want to say is far from the truth.

Hell, the previous post even gave a description of what most people think that specific forum is all about. And there's no way that's just a coincidence.

[unknownPoster]

I love how this thread is inching ever so slowly to a specific forum that everyone wants to say, but don't have the guts to actually say, regardless of the fact that what they want to say is far from the truth.


Kind of like saying "Voldemort" in the Harry Potter series. :P

[matthew]

I think we have exhausted the discussion of the actual issue over which I started this thread, so I'll close it now.

Oh, and I don't care one way or another about the linsux forum (feel better with the name being mentioned?) any more than I do any other of which I am not a part. All UF members are expected to abide by our Code of Conduct while active here. Other activities are outside the scope of interest for us here. I have neither time for nor interest in witch hunting.

[matthew]

Bump to again request that people please report, rather than respond to, posts that violate the CoC. Thank you.