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View Full Version : What would you do ? Widows or Linux for a beginner.



jfl
February 6th, 2010, 03:17 PM
An older lady wants to get her first computer and wants me to teach her the basics.
I can build one for her easily, but my dilemma is: Wich OS to install.
My gut feeling tells me ******* but that really upsets me.
What do you think ?
You gotta realize that if an app says "press any key to continue", she might call me in the middle of the night asking: "Where is the 'any' key ?"
It has happened to me before, in the good old time of DOS.

underquark
February 6th, 2010, 03:23 PM
Entirely depends what she wants to do with it. e-Mail, internet, Skype, basic accounts and look at photo's of grandchildren then Linux. Video editing then get her a Mac. Re-booting frequently then get her Windows.

NoaHall
February 6th, 2010, 03:28 PM
Windows XP, I would say.

Chilli Bob
February 6th, 2010, 03:29 PM
Definately Ubuntu. I have done exactly this for my parents and some of their friends. They are all in their mid sixties and have never used a PC in their lives. I set up Ubuntu boxes with all the codecs and updates, and gave it to them without the root password, so they can't stuff it up (at least not without my help). They now have computers that can do all they need (basic wordprocessing, spreadsheeting and powerpoint, browse the web, and manage digital photos), with an up-to-date OS, and costing less than $100.

The disadvantage is that most of the self-help books they might buy are Windows specific, but I have directed them to the help pages, and downloaded some PDF books for background reading, and it all seems good. At least most of the things they read about Office works almost the same in Open Office.org, at least at the level they are woring at.

The main arguments for Linux are the security against viruses and spyware, and lack of maintenance needed (Have you ever tried explaining what defragging is to someone who has never touched a computer before?) I don't want my parents doing their banking on a PC that I don't know is locked down tight. Also, for beginners, I can't imagine a better DE than Gnome.

Unfortunately, I have to go and do their updates, and help set up printers, but everything else just works.

Almost forgot the biggest disadvantage. My Mum is ADDICTED to Tetravex.

peakshysteria
February 6th, 2010, 03:34 PM
I would recommend Ubuntu 9.10.

OrangeCrate
February 6th, 2010, 03:35 PM
I dual boot both, but if I had to choose one for her, it would be an Ubuntu LTS, so as not to confuse her with a new version option every six months.

Everything I would guess she's need a computer for, from surfing to email to photos, can easily be done, and learned from a standard Ubuntu install (IMO, easier than Windows 7).

benmoran
February 6th, 2010, 03:42 PM
I can think of absolutely no reason that Windows would be a better choice.

Solethara
February 6th, 2010, 03:47 PM
She is just a starter. And she probably doesn't want performance, speed not any of that. Ubuntu is a good OS, but too complicated for a begginer.

Give her a Windows XP.

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 03:54 PM
Windows is more complicated for beginner than Ubuntu. She wont install it by herself, so I do not see how linux is complicated.

Make / and /home partition and /home will automont and she will never need to enter password. Install all programs, and there you have it.

If you install Windows, you will get called every day about viruses, defrags and stuff. Ubuntu LTS will just work.

Dr. C
February 6th, 2010, 03:55 PM
I can think of absolutely no reason that Windows would be a better choice.

I agree.

NoaHall
February 6th, 2010, 03:58 PM
You know, this old lady won't need to install anything other than what you install to begin with. So give her a limited account on Windows, she'll never get a virus problem.

SuperSonic4
February 6th, 2010, 04:00 PM
I can think of absolutely no reason that Windows would be a better choice.

Specialist software: for example: Flash, Consistent audio, home-video editing, WLM (esp transfer rate), Office. iPod/iPhone


It all depends on what the user wants to do with their system. Without knowing this it is equally silly to suggest ubuntu as it is to suggest windows.

If one interprets the basics as skype, IM, simple word processing, email and internet then I'd go with Ubuntu LTS server and put a GUI on to get it the 5 year support

MasterNetra
February 6th, 2010, 04:18 PM
Here's a idea, why not give her a layman's comparison of the two and let her decide? If she decides to leave it up to you, then ask her what she wants to do with it, then decide off of that what to install. If she is just going to check email and surf the web, she'd be better of with a Ubuntu LTS, if she needs to use some special tax program or something that is only found or is best used on windows then install windows.

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 04:27 PM
You know, this old lady won't need to install anything other than what you install to begin with. So give her a limited account on Windows, she'll never get a virus problem.

And why should he do that? Some programs on Windows wont even run as limited user, and some viruses run even as limited user.


Specialist software: for example: Flash, Consistent audio, home-video editing, WLM (esp transfer rate), Office. iPod/iPhone

Linux can do all that, exept iPhone. And you she is a beginner, so she will not have to compare with windows even if Linux is inferior (and it is not).

Pogeymanz
February 6th, 2010, 04:36 PM
If she will only be calling you for help, then just do Ubuntu LTS or Debian Stable (I'd prefer the latter for her).

If you think that she will look to others for help, she may just resent you for giving her something that nobody else can help her with.

It really depends on what she is going to do with it, but it sounds like Linux would be fine. Like someone above said, Gnome is a very nice, non-intimidating DE.

2hot6ft2
February 6th, 2010, 04:46 PM
Here's a idea, why not give her a layman's comparison of the two and let her decide? If she decides to leave it up to you, then ask her what she wants to do with it, then decide off of that what to install. If she is just going to check email and surf the web, she'd be better of with a Ubuntu LTS, if she needs to use some special tax program or something that is only found or is best used on windows then install windows.
That's the best suggestion I've seen here yet.

My Mom is in her 70's and I gave her a laptop with both Windows 7 Ultimate AND Ubuntu Ultimate Edition 2.5 (9.10) and let her decide which one she wants to boot into.

99% of the time she will use Ubuntu. The only time she went into Windows that I know of was to do some things with Excel which she felt more comfortable with since she had become familiar with it a few years ago.

If you have a laptop that dual boots take it and show her the difference. Or just set it up to dual boot and let her choose.

Dual booting would save you any future problem if she has a friend or relative that wants to share a program with her that they have and use that only works in Windows.

If Ubuntu show her how to change the theme and let her pick one that she likes so she will feel more comfortable using it...

mamamia88
February 6th, 2010, 04:46 PM
If she will only be calling you for help, then just do Ubuntu LTS or Debian Stable (I'd prefer the latter for her).

If you think that she will look to others for help, she may just resent you for giving her something that nobody else can help her with.

It really depends on what she is going to do with it, but it sounds like Linux would be fine. Like someone above said, Gnome is a very nice, non-intimidating DE.

yeah as much as i hate to say it maybe you should install windows that way you aren't her only tech support.

Desert Sailor
February 6th, 2010, 05:07 PM
I help my brother (75yrs) with his computer. He has windows XP and I regret it every time he calls. His wife is constantly getting mall-ware through e-mail attachments (she is one of those who exchanges e-mail with the world) and every few months I have to go over and clean up the mess.

I would convert him to Ubuntu LTS, but for a couple of programs which require windows. If you can possibly get your widow to use Ubuntu you will thank us all!

pwnst*r
February 6th, 2010, 05:27 PM
An older lady wants to get her first computer and wants me to teach her the basics.
I can build one for her easily, but my dilemma is: Wich OS to install.
My gut feeling tells me ******* but that really upsets me.
What do you think ?
You gotta realize that if an app says "press any key to continue", she might call me in the middle of the night asking: "Where is the 'any' key ?"
It has happened to me before, in the good old time of DOS.

Never heard of Widows or *******, so can't compare, sorry.

llawwehttam
February 6th, 2010, 05:30 PM
Personally for a complete beginner to computers ubuntu desktop remix would be good.

Once you've set it up it looks good and is very easy to use.
It doesn't really matter whether its on a netbook or not. Works great for noobs on desktops too.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 06:14 PM
Windows

Prepare them for the real world, where everyone uses Windows.

MooPi
February 6th, 2010, 07:03 PM
I'm stunned to read Ubuntu users recommending Microsoft Windows for a beginner. It's baffling that an Ubuntu or Linux user would even contemplate such an option. Windows is fraught with trouble for the novice. From using anti-virus correctly and knowing what not to click on as a beginner. Having Ubuntu in your corner is a buffer to all the nastiness that creeps on the modern web. Can you explain how a novice could navigate without running into malware or viruses.WTF. One piece of simple malware could get them to reveal all the details of their identity and possibly expose financial info that could end up being very expensive. I've seen experienced users tricked by clever malware , so what is there to protect a novice from this environment. Shame on anyone that suggested Windows.

NoaHall
February 6th, 2010, 07:06 PM
I'm stunned to read Ubuntu users recommending Microsoft Windows for a beginner. It's baffling that an Ubuntu or Linux user would even contemplate such an option. Windows is fraught with trouble for the novice. From using anti-virus correctly and knowing what not to click on as a beginner. Having Ubuntu in your corner is a buffer to all the nastiness that creeps on the modern web. Can you explain how a novice could navigate without running into malware or viruses.WTF. One piece of simple malware could get them to reveal all the details of their identity and possibly expose financial info that could end up being very expensive. I've seen experienced users tricked by clever malware , so what is there to protect a novice from this environment. Shame on anyone that suggested Windows.

I'm just going to say this. Limited Windows User Account. Also, Ubuntu updates? Yeah, nice job screwing everything up. It'll give her a nice system for about 6 months. Maybe less. New kernel update, and the whole system goes crazy. Oh, and malware can and has happened on GNU/Linux.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 07:09 PM
I'm stunned to read Ubuntu users recommending Microsoft Windows for a beginner. It's baffling that an Ubuntu or Linux user would even contemplate such an option. Windows is fraught with trouble for the novice. From using anti-virus correctly and knowing what not to click on as a beginner. Having Ubuntu in your corner is a buffer to all the nastiness that creeps on the modern web. Can you explain how a novice could navigate without running into malware or viruses.WTF. One piece of simple malware could get them to reveal all the details of their identity and possibly expose financial info that could end up being very expensive. I've seen experienced users tricked by clever malware , so what is there to protect a novice from this environment. Shame on anyone that suggested Windows.
This reason is flawed beyond belief.

Stan_1936
February 6th, 2010, 07:11 PM
I'm stunned to read Ubuntu users recommending Microsoft Windows for a beginner. It's baffling that an Ubuntu or Linux user would even contemplate such an option.....

+1


I can think of absolutely no reason that Windows would be a better choice.

+1


I dual boot both, but if I had to choose one for her, it would be an Ubuntu LTS, so as not to confuse her with a new version option every six months.....

That makes no sense.

You could simply go over, do a fresh install every 6 months and she will BARELY notice a difference...other than a new theme and the shutdown menu/app center(which she can't use anyways, without root access)!!!

wojox
February 6th, 2010, 07:12 PM
Windows XP, I would say.

+ 1 It's definitely dummy proof. :D

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 07:13 PM
You could simply go over, do a fresh install every 6 months and she will BARELY notice a difference...other than a new theme and the shutdown menu/app center(which she can't use anyways, without root access)!!!

Yep that's a good idea, even if certain hardware doesn't work with the newest version or a new audio system is introduced.

Dharmachakra
February 6th, 2010, 07:14 PM
I'm stunned to read Ubuntu users recommending Microsoft Windows for a beginner. It's baffling that an Ubuntu or Linux user would even contemplate such an option. Windows is fraught with trouble for the novice. From using anti-virus correctly and knowing what not to click on as a beginner. Having Ubuntu in your corner is a buffer to all the nastiness that creeps on the modern web. Can you explain how a novice could navigate without running into malware or viruses.WTF. One piece of simple malware could get them to reveal all the details of their identity and possibly expose financial info that could end up being very expensive. I've seen experienced users tricked by clever malware , so what is there to protect a novice from this environment. Shame on anyone that suggested Windows.

No. Being a Linux user doesn't mean that one has their head up their ****. ](*,)

That said, I'm gonna have to go with a limited Windows account.

Zoot7
February 6th, 2010, 07:17 PM
Windows

Prepare them for the real world, where everyone uses Windows.
Agreed on both Accounts.


I'm stunned to read Ubuntu users recommending Microsoft Windows for a beginner. It's baffling that an Ubuntu or Linux user would even contemplate such an option. Windows is fraught with trouble for the novice. From using anti-virus correctly and knowing what not to click on as a beginner. Having Ubuntu in your corner is a buffer to all the nastiness that creeps on the modern web. Can you explain how a novice could navigate without running into malware or viruses.WTF. One piece of simple malware could get them to reveal all the details of their identity and possibly expose financial info that could end up being very expensive. I've seen experienced users tricked by clever malware , so what is there to protect a novice from this environment. Shame on anyone that suggested Windows.
I used to have a similar viewpoint but then I think of the problems I have had with Linux over the years. Wireless issues, Sound issues, breakage, and the worst of all - dependency issues.
I wouldn't inflict that upon a beginner embarking on the broad world of computing.

Having said that a good Linux distro can have its place.
For instance I have a box setup for internet browsing and the odd movie or bit of music for the parents with Debian Stable, which does its job fine. But my main reason in this case was a lack of an XP license, it just wasn't worth going out and buying another one.

Stan_1936
February 6th, 2010, 07:19 PM
Yep that's a good idea, even if certain hardware doesn't work with the newest version or a new audio system is introduced.

In that event, one would revert(fresh install) to the older version.

A newer version could offer improved speed....one would never know without trying it out. IF she's backed up her files(which would presumable have been taught to her by you), then you(familiar with Ubuntu) should have no problem simply inserting a Live-CD, clicking the mouse a few times and installing the necessary drivers(which you, in the interest of saving your own time, should have made note of during the first install) to get her back up and running with the old(LTS) version.

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 07:21 PM
You wouldn't have to do that with Windows.

MooPi
February 6th, 2010, 07:22 PM
This reason is flawed beyond belief.
Okay make me a believer and explain. I have time as my house is buried under much snow and I'm not going anywhere.

NoaHall
February 6th, 2010, 07:23 PM
In that event, one would revert(fresh install) to the older version.

A newer version could offer improved speed....one would never know without trying it out. IF she's backed up her files(which would presumable have been taught to her by you), then you(familiar with Ubuntu) should have no problem simply inserting a Live-CD, clicking the mouse a few times and installing the necessary drivers(which you, in the interest of saving your own time, should have made note of during the first install) to get her back up and running with the old(LTS) version.

This old lady doesn't care about backing up her files. She just wants it to work, she just wants to use it. She doesn't want to have to mess around with CDs. She wants it to work, she's never used a computer before, she has no idea what a Live-CD is, nor how to install a operating system without destroying everything.

Simian Man
February 6th, 2010, 07:25 PM
Windows obviously. What happens when she gets a new printer and doesn't choose a Linux friendly brand? Or when she buys Print Artist at the store? Or wants to watch Netflix online? Sure Linux is just as easy to use as Windows for the basic tasks, but anything beyond that and it's so much harder.

And I find it pretty condescending how some people here seem to assume that just because she's old, she doesn't want to do a lot with her computer.

leandromartinez98
February 6th, 2010, 07:28 PM
I've installed Ubuntu for my father, mother, brother and girlfriend. All with dual boots. Except for my brother I simply disable updates. They rarely have problems. My mother some days ago asked me to install Ubuntu on her other laptop (which has XP), because she has wireless issues and the computer is much slower than the Ubuntu one (even with better hardware). My girlfriend only boots into XP to use Word, because she is very familiar with it, and it is always a pain to use the XP on that machine. If there is no specific program or device to use, which does not work for some reason on Linux, I would go with Ubuntu all the way. Just setup the system carefully for her, install all codecs and this kind of stuff.

RiceMonster
February 6th, 2010, 07:28 PM
Windows obviously. What happens when she gets a new printer and doesn't choose a Linux friendly brand? Or when she buys Print Artist at the store? Or wants to watch Netflix online? Sure Linux is just as easy to use as Windows for the basic tasks, but anything beyond that and it's so much harder.

And I find it pretty condescending how some people here seem to assume that just because she's old, she doesn't want to do a lot with her computer.

This.

chriswyatt
February 6th, 2010, 07:29 PM
My dad's rubbish with computers but he much prefers Ubuntu. I personally find it easier and more intuitive to use than Windows.

I'd say if it wasn't her first PC and she was more used to Windows then you might want to take that into consideration, but a first PC for an older user who probably just wants to browse the web and stuff, definitely Ubuntu.

leandromartinez98
February 6th, 2010, 07:31 PM
Windows obviously. What happens when she gets a new printer and doesn't choose a Linux friendly brand? Or when she buys Print Artist at the store? Or wants to watch Netflix online? Sure Linux is just as easy to use as Windows for the basic tasks, but anything beyond that and it's so much harder.

And I find it pretty condescending how some people here seem to assume that just because she's old, she doesn't want to do a lot with her computer.

I recently bought an Epson printer which, after a few clicks, was working on Ubuntu (and it was not withing the fully supported printers, which get automatically recognized). It was very slow, so I thought: ok, the linux driver sucks. Then I installed it on a laptop with Windows 7. It was as low, and the characters appeared distorted (with the driver from the installation CD!!!).

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 07:39 PM
I'm stunned to read Ubuntu users recommending Microsoft Windows for a beginner.

I see no Ubuntu users recommending Windows. Most people who recommend Windows are here just to do that. Other are just taking their example.

Arguments for Windows are fallacious. Windows XP is not designed to be used as limited user, half of software would not work that way. But viruses will sure work.

About arguments about Linux hardware (in)compatibility, Linux never stops recognizing hardware, when OP sets it up, it will work for ever. Any incompatibility, if it is there, will be seen from start. If updates are concern, go for Debian stable. It is unchanging and it supported almost forever. Heck, if you want crazy stability go for CentOS. I am yet to see a widow who can **** up enterprise class OS.

But my vote goes for Debian stable, if updates are concern.

Dharmachakra
February 6th, 2010, 07:43 PM
Arguments for Windows are fallacious. Windows XP is not designed to be used as limited user, half of software would not work that way. But viruses will sure work.


Funny thing is, when I run Windows on a limited account, all my applications work just fine. Actually, that's a lie. Morrowind took some work. Other than that, I have never had any problems.

I would assume that he wouldn't be using XP if he's building the system himself.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 07:43 PM
I recently bought an Epson printer which, after a few clicks, was working on Ubuntu (and it was not withing the fully supported printers, which get automatically recognized). It was very slow, so I thought: ok, the linux driver sucks. Then I installed it on a laptop with Windows 7. It was as low, and the characters appeared distorted (with the driver from the installation CD!!!).
That's the exception and not the rule. Say she bought a Cannon and it doesn't work at all.

underquark
February 6th, 2010, 07:44 PM
I've installed Windows and I've installed ubuntu on others' PCs. Given the choice I'd go for ubuntu just because I like it better and because I will have to deal with any repercussions. If someone else will be dropping by to deal with problems then ask them what they'd want.

Just set it up properly with a decent Linux distro - I'd go for Jaunty now or Lucid later in the year - and I'll bet most questions from her would have arisen whatever OS was installed. Check that any hardware is compatible.

Finally - ask her whether she is happy with free software or a pirate copy of Windows (unless you're actually buying her a copy, that is).

NoaHall
February 6th, 2010, 07:45 PM
I see no Ubuntu users recommending Windows. Most people who recommend Windows are here just to do that. Other are just taking their example.

Arguments for Windows are fallacious. Windows XP is not designed to be used as limited user, half of software would not work that way. But viruses will sure work.

About arguments about Linux hardware (in)compatibility, Linux never stops recognizing hardware, when OP sets it up, it will work for ever. Any incompatibility, if it is there, will be seen from start. If updates are concern, go for Debian stable. It is unchanging and it supported almost forever. Heck, if you want crazy stability go for CentOS. I am yet to see a widow who can **** up enterprise class OS.

But my vote goes for Debian stable, if updates are concern.


You're funny.
I use GNU/Linux, but I'm recommending Windows. You see, I can see the good AND bad in things. I'm not a "pick a side and fight for it, ignoring anything wrong with it" guy.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 07:45 PM
I see no Ubuntu users recommending Windows. Most people who recommend Windows are here just to do that. Other are just taking their example.

Actually, many of us who recommend Windows know it from experience. Others, who I won't name, recommend Ubuntu out of pure fanboy-dom.

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 07:49 PM
Actually, many of us who recommend Windows know it from experience. Others, who I won't name, recommend Ubuntu out of pure fanboy-dom.

What makes you think that you have more experience from me... about anything?

MooPi
February 6th, 2010, 07:51 PM
Actually, many of us who recommend Windows know it from experience. Others, who I won't name, recommend Ubuntu out of pure fanboy-dom.Please name..................... We are all here to debate the merits of each others arguments. Give us something to ponder. Please.

fewt
February 6th, 2010, 08:03 PM
I see no Ubuntu users recommending Windows. Most people who recommend Windows are here just to do that. Other are just taking their example.

Arguments for Windows are fallacious. Windows XP is not designed to be used as limited user, half of software would not work that way. But viruses will sure work.

About arguments about Linux hardware (in)compatibility, Linux never stops recognizing hardware, when OP sets it up, it will work for ever. Any incompatibility, if it is there, will be seen from start. If updates are concern, go for Debian stable. It is unchanging and it supported almost forever. Heck, if you want crazy stability go for CentOS. I am yet to see a widow who can **** up enterprise class OS.

But my vote goes for Debian stable, if updates are concern.

Let me be the first then to recommend Windows over Ubuntu for non-geeks. Linux itself is great, but Ubuntu has turned into a big crap salad, and end users are better off without it.

Case in point, the new devicekit-power update stops executing scripts in /etc/pm/power.d AGAIN.

Unless you are a new user that likes pain, use Windows. Linux is still for power users, it could have been great for consumers, but those building it don't have any concept of end user operating systems. They can't even stick to their own core values.

Need Proof? - How about the shift from OSS Office to closed source proprietary google docs.

"Linux never stops recognizing hardware, when OP sets it up, it will work for ever."

This is completely untrue. You have obviously never needed to compile kernel modules for your WIFI or other device that isn't supported. When a new kernel comes out, guess what. The driver doesn't load because it doesn't exist or conflicts.

The only way hardware will remain functional in some cases is to not patch at all, or to learn DKMS. I sure hope you don't expect end users to take on DKMS.

arnab_das
February 6th, 2010, 08:07 PM
had this question been asked a few years back i would have instantly said windows. but as of 2010, ubuntu is a really awesome OS, not just because of its security features etc. but because it now looks seriously mind blowing, with compiz, AWN, and now globalmenu. its poised to be the next big thing in the OS arena in the new few years.

i think in a few years time, mark shuttleworth will be launching new editions of ubuntu in front of world media, steve jobs style! :)

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 08:08 PM
You're funny.
I use GNU/Linux, but I'm recommending Windows. You see, I can see the good AND bad in things. I'm not a "pick a side and fight for it, ignoring anything wrong with it" guy.

No, you see just bad things with linux, most of things which are not even there. What makes you think that one woman who knows nothing about computers will see those things like flaws? You comparing Linux vs Windows. Basically saying "better is worse if it is different". That may be true for you, but for someone who never used computer is unimportant.

During last 6 months only I converted over 50 people from Windows to Linux, and another 60 newbies (who never used computer) to Linux and that just counting people for who I was tech support. So believe me, I know what I am talking about. I also used to recommend Windows to newbie computer using friends, thinking that will bring me less calling and headaches. It was just the opposite. Those with linux call just to remove Windows from their computer forever(if I left dualboot). There are people who are locked in with Windows, and there is no point recomending Linux to them, but to newbie computer users, just go with Linux.

@fewt
You missed the thread, this is not "I am getting Windows refund" thread.


PS: One point. You are all talking "Ubuntu is unstable". Did you ever used Ubuntu LTS for a while. It feals more like Debian. Some unstability claims can be made for regular releases, but LTS is more stable. And if that is not enough, Debian is there.

NoaHall
February 6th, 2010, 08:12 PM
No, you see just bad things with linux, most of things which are not even there. What makes you think that one woman who knows nothing about computers will see those things like flaws? You comparing Linux vs Windows. Basically saying "better is worse if it is different". That may be true for you, but for someone who never used computer is unimportant.

During last 6 months only I converted over 50 people from Windows to Linux, and another 60 newbies (who never used computer) to Linux and that just counting people for who I was tech support. So believe me, I know what I am talking about. I also used to recommend Windows to newbie computer using friends, thinking that will bring me less calling and headaches. It was just the opposite. Those with linux call just to remove Windows from their computer forever(if I left dualboot). There are people who are locked in with Windows, and there is no point recomending Linux to them, but to newbie computer users, just go with Linux.

@fewt
You missed the thread, this is not "I am getting Windows refund" thread.

I'm not even going to bother answering you, because you obviously haven't read anything in this thread. I like GNU/Linux. Doesn't mean I recommend it everywhere I go, nor that I think it's the "ONE OS TO RULE THEM ALL!!!1!!!!". Get over yourself, and get over this GNU/Linux fanboyism you have.

Name change
February 6th, 2010, 08:13 PM
I'd say Windows. It's easier to handle thing when they don't work...
Especially for someone who's not really good with computers.
Or if you must install Linux. Install a Linux with rolling releases and stable base.
So that she has nothing to do with updates it's just that updates it every time you're there.

pwnst*r
February 6th, 2010, 08:15 PM
Actually, many of us who recommend Windows know it from experience. Others, who I won't name, recommend Ubuntu out of pure fanboy-dom.

^This. End of thread material.

fewt
February 6th, 2010, 08:16 PM
@fewt
You missed the thread, this is not "I am getting Windows refund" thread.


PS: One point. You are all talking "Ubuntu". Did you ever used Ubuntu LTS for a while. It feals more like Debian. Some unstability claims can be made for regular releases, but LTS is more stable. And if that is not enough, Debian is there.

Corrected, I confused two tabs.

I've used every Ubuntu release since the very first, including LTS. The LTS release is only useful for hardware that was purchased before the LTS release. It is still buggy, and only gets security updates with very few general maintenance fixes.

Twitch6000
February 6th, 2010, 08:17 PM
I'm stunned to read Ubuntu users recommending Microsoft Windows for a beginner. It's baffling that an Ubuntu or Linux user would even contemplate such an option. Windows is fraught with trouble for the novice. From using anti-virus correctly and knowing what not to click on as a beginner. Having Ubuntu in your corner is a buffer to all the nastiness that creeps on the modern web. Can you explain how a novice could navigate without running into malware or viruses.WTF. One piece of simple malware could get them to reveal all the details of their identity and possibly expose financial info that could end up being very expensive. I've seen experienced users tricked by clever malware , so what is there to protect a novice from this environment. Shame on anyone that suggested Windows.

Why be upset. Windows is defiantly better for a new user. atleast when they make upgrades it truly is an upgrade,instead of a ubuntu upgrade that breaks half your system.

toupeiro
February 6th, 2010, 08:18 PM
I kind of compare this to learning to drive.

What I was taught (and it has held up abundantly true to date) is that if I learn stick shift first, and get good at it, then I can pretty much drive any class-C vehicle on the road, manual or automatic, with very little to no retraining. I think a lot of the same principles can be said about learning linux first. Picking up windows is easy to do, and learning linux may take a little more effort, but I think it gives you a more unbias view of terms such as "difficult" "easy" "virus" "slow" fast" and "works" when it comes to using a computer.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 08:20 PM
What makes you think that you have more experience from me... about anything?
It's not more or less at all. It's about having experience with it period. I was once an Ubuntu fanboy, and when I worked in a PC Shop, we did once advertise Ubuntu as an installed OS. It was nothing but trouble, even for absolute beginners. We would receive more complaints from the Linux clients than those who got Windows XP/Vista. That alone has convinced me that Ubuntu is not ready to be given to anyone besides a seasoned user.

johnboy1313
February 6th, 2010, 08:20 PM
An older lady wants to get her first computer and wants me to teach her the basics.
I can build one for her easily, but my dilemma is: Wich OS to install.
My gut feeling tells me ******* but that really upsets me.
What do you think ?
You gotta realize that if an app says "press any key to continue", she might call me in the middle of the night asking: "Where is the 'any' key ?"
It has happened to me before, in the good old time of DOS.

Considering the situation, I would install Windows, but simply for the reason that if this lady needs help with anything at any point she can call more than one place. For example, I work for an ISP, if we get calls and you don't use a "supported" os we dont have to help. That was the reason my mother in law is using windows, so when she has a problem im not the only person she calls for help. I'm not doubting that you will build a solid machichine regarless of the os you choose, I just think you might save yourself the headache by going with the everyone else uses it os.

toupeiro
February 6th, 2010, 08:24 PM
It's not more or less at all. It's about having experience with it period. I was once an Ubuntu fanboy, and when I worked in a PC Shop, we did once advertise Ubuntu as an installed OS. It was nothing but trouble, even for absolute beginners. We would receive more complaints from the Linux clients than those who got Windows XP/Vista. That alone has convinced me that Ubuntu is not ready to be given to anyone besides a seasoned user.

Can't help but ask, Did you tell them upfront that all their little apps from tucows and just about any software sitting on a store shelf wouldn't work or let them find out once they got it home?

I've had a much different experience supporting new users, but I made sure I disclosed all caveats I could think of before I put ubuntu on.

nothingspecial
February 6th, 2010, 08:27 PM
Just because my experience applies......


.....and I really, really couldn`t care less what operating system gets installed on this old lady`s computer, and I don`t care which operating system is better, and I don`t give a monkeys who`s a fanboy or not......

I`m 34, untill 3 years ago, I had never touched a Pc or laptop, I`d played games as a kid on friends Commodore 64s and zx spectrums but that was my life experience with computers. My wife had never owned a computer, although she used one at work and my kids had certainly never touched a computer.

My friend gave me his old one, it had 7.04 on it. My wife, kids and I have never used anything else.

So install what you will, but what I`m trying to say is that if you don`t know any different I don`t think it matters what you install. I think it`s doing things you`re not used to/comfortable with that causes issues.

Just my twopenneth.

MooPi
February 6th, 2010, 08:31 PM
Why be upset. Windows is defiantly better for a new user. atleast when they make upgrades it truly is an upgrade,instead of a ubuntu upgrade that breaks half your system.
Not mad, I'm stunned. I'm curious if any of you that have suggested Windows have ever helped someone convert to Linux or have helped anyone install Linux(other than this forum).I make it a point to commit to helping converts and holding their hand (figuratively). If I set it up I test and make certain things work before I hand it over. I then tell them I'm there to help with the smallest of problems. Then I do my best to get them to use it and change it and experiment to their hearts content. Because that's what it's all about, enjoying what is yours and having the freedom to manipulate and change whatever your capable of. I don't sit on the fence on this issue and yes I'm a fanboy. But I back up my words with commitment. I use Windows but I'm not a fan of their work.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 08:32 PM
Can't help but ask, Did you tell them upfront that all their little apps from tucows and just about any software sitting on a store shelf wouldn't work or let them find out once they got it home?

I've had a much different experience supporting new users, but I made sure I disclosed all caveats I could think of before I put ubuntu on.

Yes, I did. The people would still just expect applications to work, even after a very liberal dose of "99% of the applications you use now won't work". After about six months of two-thirds higher support requests (they were covered under warranty, so support was free), we decided to only offer them to people that we either were competent or those who came in and explicitly asked for it. We didn't advertise it after that. It become a money-blackhole of support.

Alexandre Putt
February 6th, 2010, 08:34 PM
Ubuntu no doubt. Easier to learn, use and maintain, better hardware support. Plus you get some very good software for free.

Those who claim otherwise either learned their ways with computers under Windows (and do not realise they are biased) or have never been exposed to hardware support problems like trying to make some old printer work under some new version of Windows. Come on, just a look at it makes me feel sick. Who would voluntarily want to use it? And do you really want this for an old lady?

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 08:35 PM
Ubuntu no doubt. Easier to learn, use and maintain, better hardware support. Plus you get some very good software for free.

Those who claim otherwise either learned their ways with computers under Windows (and do not realise they are biased) or have never been exposed to hardware support problems like trying to make some old printer work under some new version of Windows. Come on, just a look at it makes me feel sick. Who would voluntarily want to use it? And do you really want this for an old lady?

That :popcorn:

Kenny_Strawn
February 6th, 2010, 08:38 PM
Definitely Linux. It's easy to use and administrate, allows for easy accessibility, and, oh yes, FREE and open source. There is no comparison.

However, you guys are entitled to an opinion.

KiwiNZ
February 6th, 2010, 08:46 PM
An older lady wants to get her first computer and wants me to teach her the basics.
I can build one for her easily, but my dilemma is: Wich OS to install.
My gut feeling tells me ******* but that really upsets me.
What do you think ?
You gotta realize that if an app says "press any key to continue", she might call me in the middle of the night asking: "Where is the 'any' key ?"
It has happened to me before, in the good old time of DOS.

For an absolute beginner Windows 7 for sure. Off the shelf Apps that she can buy on the high street and install with a few clicks. Support that is a phone call away. If she is on the Internet on a seniors web support will be easy and available.

The learning curve on Windows is small compared to Linux people that say otherwise need to wake up a little, pushing Linux in the case study presented is a sure fired way to put the cause backwards.

nubimax
February 6th, 2010, 08:48 PM
I am 70 years old I have dipped in and out of computers for the last 50 years or so, untill I was introduced to ubuntu 8.04. This is the easiest OS that I have ever tried to learn. Before ubuntu I only used computers when I had to, now I find it a lot of fun to use computers.
my 2 cents worth.
M.

nothingspecial
February 6th, 2010, 08:51 PM
The learning curve on Windows is small compared to Linux people that say otherwise need to wake up a little

I don`t know what you know but all I know is that I`ve given up on windows within a day 3 times, because I couldn`t work it.

nothingspecial
February 6th, 2010, 08:53 PM
Double post sorry

fewt
February 6th, 2010, 08:53 PM
Ubuntu no doubt. Easier to learn, use and maintain, better hardware support. Plus you get some very good software for free.

Those who claim otherwise either learned their ways with computers under Windows (and do not realise they are biased) or have never been exposed to hardware support problems like trying to make some old printer work under some new version of Windows. Come on, just a look at it makes me feel sick. Who would voluntarily want to use it? And do you really want this for an old lady?

Perhaps some of us just know more about Linux and Windows, and know when to make an educated decision for one over the other.

Perhaps we know the difficulty in hardware support problems on both platforms. I spend a significant amount of my time developing (Windows and Linux) automated deployment solutions for corporations. This involved sometimes register level configuration changes. I probably know a thing or two about the subject.

Hands down, Windows is easier for non technical people than Ubuntu because Ubuntu just breaks too often to be useful. Even LTS releases are relatively unstable.

Then there is the argument for many of the things that consumers do. Shelfware, Netflix, etc. There are few options for consumers in this area. The Ubuntu store isn't going to fix that.

You probably don't remember the consumer backlash against Microsoft back in the early 2000s because of it's instability.

That's where Ubuntu is right now unfortunately, as unstable as XP pre SP2.

Speaking of "bias", way to throw the "bias" card right before stating:

"Come on, just a look at it makes me feel sick. Who would voluntarily want to use it?"

Gold star: :KS

Icehuck
February 6th, 2010, 08:55 PM
I don`t know what you know but all I know is that I`ve given up on windows within a day 3 times, because I couldn`t work it.

What couldn't you get Windows to do that you could do in Ubuntu?

koenn
February 6th, 2010, 08:58 PM
The learning curve on Windows is small compared to Linux people that say otherwise need to wake up a little

You gotta be kidding.
In the case of a user without any previous experience - which is what this thread is about, why would it be easier to learn point and click in a Windows desktop than in a Gnome DE ? Why would learning where to click to get to your files or programs be harder in Goneme than in Windows ? etc.
The learning curve will be identical in both cases.

fewt
February 6th, 2010, 09:00 PM
You gotta be kidding.
In the case of a user without any previous experience - which is what this thread is about, why would it be easier to learn point and click in a Windows desktop than in a Gnome DE ? Why would learning where to click to get to your files or programs be harder in Goneme than in Windows ? etc.
The learning curve will be identical in both cases.

It has little to do with Gnome vs Explorer, and everything to do with:

OMG I can't return TurboTax, what do you mean it doesn't work!!!

and

OMG What do you mean all my printer options aren't supported!!!

and

OMG Why doesn't my WIFI stay connected!!! It worked FINE in Windows!!!

jflaker
February 6th, 2010, 09:01 PM
The problem children are those who come to Linux from Windows and expect Windows.....

Since this person is new to computers, starting off in Linux is a good choice....they can't mess it up, they can't get virii and malware and best of all.....no learning curve.

You can set up remote connection over dial-up and be able to log into that machine from where you happen to be. Not quite sure how exactly to set that up.

ikt
February 6th, 2010, 09:01 PM
Depends what she wants to do with it, very basic computer usage, email, internet, skype, then ubuntu, broader use I'd say win7 just for the compatibility.

nothingspecial
February 6th, 2010, 09:03 PM
What couldn't you get Windows to do that you could do in Ubuntu?

Nothing. I couldn`t get iTunes to work.

I rescued an old computer from work, took it home, plugged in my trusty wifi dongle - the one that just works when you plug it into any ubuntu box.

"windows has detected new hardware, would you like it to search the internet for drivers"

No, because you can`t work the dongle, so I`ll just unplug everything and plug it in on the kitchen floor next to the router.

Then I downloaded iTunes which took about 40 mins compared to one for banshee/rhythmbox etc etc

Then I went through the stupid wizard and accepted all the nonsense.

When I finally launched it it said that it couldn`t find the music and something about the administrator and wouldn`t start.

So I checked google and started editing the registry according to instructions and ended up making things worse.

And in the end I just thought stuff this and installed linux on it, and now it`s my server.

KiwiNZ
February 6th, 2010, 09:03 PM
You gotta be kidding.
In the case of a user without any previous experience - which is what this thread is about, why would it be easier to learn point and click in a Windows desktop than in a Gnome DE ? Why would learning where to click to get to your files or programs be harder in Goneme than in Windows ? etc.
The learning curve will be identical in both cases.

Yep and ISP support is just a phone call away

Printer support is just a phone call away

:rolleyes:

Stan_1936
February 6th, 2010, 09:03 PM
This old lady doesn't care about backing up her files. She just wants it to work, she just wants to use it. She doesn't want to have to mess around with CDs. She wants it to work, she's never used a computer before, she has no idea what a Live-CD is, nor how to install a operating system without destroying everything.

YOU....NOT HER.....would be the person doing that!!!

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 09:06 PM
I've had a customer before who had their first PC, never knew anything about them. I gave them Windows XP, she at a later date went to a store and was just looking at the software for her computer and she found Spore and read the box and was interested. She bought it and has been playing it.

Now say I gave her openSUSE because I thought it's all she'd need, what am I supposed to do, explain to her that it doesn't work for her PC because she has openSUSE when the other 99% of the market has Windows or go through a really long tweak list for WINE. Of course not.

NoaHall
February 6th, 2010, 09:07 PM
YOU....NOT HER.....would be the person doing that!!!

Are you saying every 6 months the OP goes to her house, out of his time, and does this? For free?

koenn
February 6th, 2010, 09:07 PM
Funny thing is, when I run Windows on a limited account, all my applications work just fine. Actually, that's a lie. Morrowind took some work. Other than that, I have never had any problems.
It's a know fact that lots of programs did not run on XP under anything less than an administrator account because these programmes expected the user account had write access just about anywhere on the disks, and sometimes even in the registry. This was a huge problem when XP was first released, but most professional software got updated eventually to versions that behave more sensibly.

Nonetheless, it remains a problem with older versions, and sometimes with freeware and shareware by lazy or not too competent programmers.

nothingspecial
February 6th, 2010, 09:09 PM
I ought to point out that right from the start I have been fully aware that windows software will not work and to check hardware compatability before purchase.

koenn
February 6th, 2010, 09:09 PM
Yep and ISP support is just a phone call away

Printer support is just a phone call away

:rolleyes:
you talked about learning curve, and that's what I replied to.
Now you're changing horses to "support".

fewt
February 6th, 2010, 09:10 PM
I ought to point out that right from the start I have been fully aware that windows software will not work and to check hardware before purchase.

The quote in your sig ..

"Linux assumes you know exactly what you`re doing"

.. is exactly why Ubuntu is not for end users.

fewt
February 6th, 2010, 09:12 PM
you talked about learning curve, and that's what I replied to.
Now you're changing horses to "support".

Learning curve and support are directly related.

Computer breaks with Windows, end user looks in the box and calls the vendor.

Computer breaks with Ubuntu after some helpful UFer removed Windows, end user looks in the box and calls the vendor.

Which of those scenarios do you think would be successful.

That's the action an end user will take because they are end users.

KiwiNZ
February 6th, 2010, 09:13 PM
you talked about learning curve, and that's what I replied to.
Now you're changing horses to "support".

And with the learning comes support for with out support the learning curve is even sharper.

nothingspecial
February 6th, 2010, 09:18 PM
The quote in your sig ..

"Linux assumes you know exactly what you`re doing"

.. is exactly why Ubuntu is not for end users.

I`m not saying weather it is or not. I`m just saying that I started with linux and struggled hopelessly with windows.

The quote in my sig is for people who think there might be an undo when you

find ./ -type f -exec mv '{}' ./ \; from the root directory.

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 09:18 PM
Kiwi, you're right, it goes back to what I said about my customer buying Spore. If I had given her Linux it obviously wouldn't have worked, on the box of these games it usually has something a long the lines of:

"Need assistance installing this product? Call (number)"

Then when they ask the usual questions click your Start Button, which version are you using (It's easy to tell which version of Windows is being ran by either the way it looks or by clicking the start button, all the person would have to do is describe how it looks). Then when the customer can't give them the information they've requested, she'll probably spend more time on the phone trying to explain to them what she has on their PC. When they conclude that she's running Linux they will tell her it won't run.

Now in a lot of stores they do not accept PC games being returned. So money and time is wasted because the person who built the PC decided to be different and install something that most other computer users don't use thus limiting the software choice to the person they've given the computer to.

Twitch6000
February 6th, 2010, 09:19 PM
Not mad, I'm stunned. I'm curious if any of you that have suggested Windows have ever helped someone convert to Linux or have helped anyone install Linux(other than this forum).I make it a point to commit to helping converts and holding their hand (figuratively). If I set it up I test and make certain things work before I hand it over. I then tell them I'm there to help with the smallest of problems. Then I do my best to get them to use it and change it and experiment to their hearts content. Because that's what it's all about, enjoying what is yours and having the freedom to manipulate and change whatever your capable of. I don't sit on the fence on this issue and yes I'm a fanboy. But I back up my words with commitment. I use Windows but I'm not a fan of their work.

Well I know I have and he was very happy,but I sure as hell didn't give him ubuntu. Ubuntu is the worst linux distro I have used.

I set him up with opensuse using kde. I also put any icons he might need on the desktop.

He did complain once though about ms office not working. I did get that fixed though and he has been happy ever since.

However if a new user comes to me and wants me to setup a computer for him. I will use windows as the os unless he says otherwise.

koenn
February 6th, 2010, 09:22 PM
It has little to do with Gnome vs Explorer, and everything to do with:

OMG I can't return TurboTax, what do you mean it doesn't work!!!

and

OMG What do you mean all my printer options aren't supported!!!

and

OMG Why doesn't my WIFI stay connected!!! It worked FINE in Windows!!!
You may have a bot of a point about the turbotax - that's a regional issue, in Belgium "TaxOnWeb" is platform independent.

I doubt a first time user has any idea what printer options are - if the page gets printed more or less the way it looks on the screen, it's OK. Most people I know (at work) print, then fotocopy if they need multiple copies of a document - the concept of changing the number of copies to print, is foreign to them. So "printer options" are not a deal breaker, imo.

And a doubtr someone who never used a computer before is going to say "it worked fine on windows". :-)

Alexandre Putt
February 6th, 2010, 09:24 PM
Hands down, Windows is easier for non technical people than Ubuntu because Ubuntu just breaks too often to be useful. Even LTS releases are relatively unstable.

I don't agree. An old person most likely does not need to use a PC in any sophisticated way. All that needs to be done is to set it once, and it will operate fine for a few years. That's how it is done at public places (like my former uni), that how I made it for my mum (who has recently started using computers). I am happy that I installed Ubuntu, because I can forget about maintaining it. A Windows installation on the other hand would constantly accumulate trouble.

Moreover, you seem to confuse ease of use (or learning) with ease of maintenance. Ubuntu is definitely easier and better for a standard set of applications. It's not 1990ies anymore.

I am not even mentioning philosophical differences between Windows and Linux. The former is like a black box, if something gets wrong, it is hard to remedy it by design. Linux just works.

Twitch6000
February 6th, 2010, 09:28 PM
I don't agree. An old person most likely does not need to use a PC in any sophisticated way.

Wow what is with the hate of "old" people...

My grandparents do alot more then you suggest.

They play games surf the web check email and use abiword for writing stuff.

As long as the icon is on the desktop then they are happy.

However they are still not great with a computer. Once they see a message of any kind or a program minimizes for no reason,they think it is broke . So they get me to fix it.

If I left them with ubuntu and its breaking every update I would have to fix their problems daily..

Then they would also be asking for something easier to use.

I am sorry you cannot realize that windows still is the best of,but it is true get use to it.

fewt
February 6th, 2010, 09:28 PM
You may have a bot of a point about the turbotax - that's a regional issue, in Belgium "TaxOnWeb" is platform independent.

I doubt a first time user has any idea what printer options are - if the page gets printed more or less the way it looks on the screen, it's OK. Most people I know (at work) print, then fotocopy if they need multiple copies of a document - the concept of changing the number of copies to print, is foreign to them. So "printer options" are not a deal breaker, imo.

And a doubtr someone who never used a computer before is going to say "it worked fine on windows". :-)

They will figure it out fast when they need to learn how to print out a photo, and the user guide says to do it this way, but CUPS does it a completely different way, and doesn't support the option they need.

It can be a deal breaker, it is why my wife's computer has a Windows VM. CUPS doesn't support her "fully supported" printer because options aren't available that are with the Windows driver.

It prints therefor it is supported is not the right answer with end users.

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 09:32 PM
The total years I've been using Linux is more than I have Windows. Although I can fix most crap in Linux it doesn't mean that Linux is easier at all. This is why:



No Stable API/ABIs, if something worked in an old release, doesn't mean it will work in another.
Repos are restrictive (Not an issue on Slackware), you may not be able to get the latest versions of software without updating the whole OS.
Core Component Fragmentation, a new version of X11 will be released with no backwards compatibility so that certain drivers or video cards just won't work without downgrading.
You may have to upgrade the whole OS to use a new piece of software, this is due to dependencies, take VirtualBox as an easy example, you can't have OpenGL on VirtualBox additions without upgrading your kernel to 2.6.27, some people may not be able to do this or want to do this, that may break compatibility with their hardware.
Backwards Compatibility is a bugger, just like the above point, you may not be able to get old versions of applications installed without screwing around with loads of other stuff. On Windows you uninstall the new one, reinstall the old one, on Linux it's not always that simple.

I know you're all going to disagree with me, but as I said, I've used Linux longer than Windows when you add up how long I've used both OS's. So that rules out you saying, you're just choosing Windows because of preference.

fewt
February 6th, 2010, 09:32 PM
I don't agree. An old person most likely does not need to use a PC in any sophisticated way. All that needs to be done is to set it once, and it will operate fine for a few years. That's how it is done at public places (like my former uni), that how I made it for my mum (who has recently started using computers). I am happy that I installed Ubuntu, because I can forget about maintaining it. A Windows installation on the other hand would constantly accumulate trouble.

Moreover, you seem to confuse ease of use (or learning) with ease of maintenance. Ubuntu is definitely easier and better for a standard set of applications. It's not 1990ies anymore.

I am not even mentioning philosophical differences between Windows and Linux. The former is like a black box, if something gets wrong, it is hard to remedy it by design. Linux just works.

Try installing the last LTS on an Asus Eee PC 1000HE.

Simple things like missing drivers are not things that you can consider "sophisticated".

Having to compile kernel modules for WIFI so their hardware is supported, that is not OK. Having to compile kernel modules so their bluetooth turns on in the OS without having to go into the BIOS, that's not OK. That's what you are telling me is OK for an end user though by making an argument for LTS.

Telling people to "just use LTS" is a bad argument, full of fail.

You can "not agree" all you want, that doesn't make you right.

aysiu
February 6th, 2010, 09:33 PM
I think the reason the argument has lasted this long is you can't make a blanket statement that Windows is better for beginners or Linux is better for beginners.

No OS is better for everyone and every situation.

A lot of deciding factors have been brought up, and those should be taken into consideration. Is this person going to buy software or hardware peripherals? Who will she most likely go to for help? Does she really have absolutely no experience with computers? What operating systems do her friends use?

If you're pretty sure she has zero experience with computers, will be turning either solely or primarily to you for tech support, and has no plans to do anything with the computer that you haven't already set up (printer, extra software, iPhone, etc.), then Linux is an obvious choice. Set her up with Debian stable or a Ubuntu LTS and leave your phone number and email address in case she has problems or questions. Teach her how to install software, explaining that she can find new software through the Ubuntu Software Center. She does not need to buy software. Also ask that if she wants to buy some other hardware (smartphone, media player, printer) that she consult you first to find the best device for her computer.

If she isn't relying solely on you for tech support, and she has a bit of expendable income, set her up with a Mac.

Otherwise, Windows is a good choice (she doesn't have much money, she can't rely solely or primarily on you for tech support, she is likely to go buy peripherals or software on her own).

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 09:40 PM
I think the reason the argument has lasted this long is you can't make a blanket statement that Windows is better for beginners or Linux is better for beginners.

No OS is better for everyone and every situation.

A lot of deciding factors have been brought up, and those should be taken into consideration. Is this person going to buy software or hardware peripherals? Who will she most likely go to for help? Does she really have absolutely no experience with computers? What operating systems do her friends use?

If you're pretty sure she has zero experience with computers, will be turning either solely or primarily to you for tech support, and has no plans to do anything with the computer that you haven't already set up (printer, extra software, iPhone, etc.), then Linux is an obvious choice. Set her up with Debian stable or a Ubuntu LTS and leave your phone number and email address in case she has problems or questions. Teach her how to install software, explaining that she can find new software through the Ubuntu Software Center. She does not need to buy software. Also ask that if she wants to buy some other hardware (smartphone, media player, printer) that she consult you first to find the best device for her computer.

If she isn't relying solely on you for tech support, and she has a bit of expendable income, set her up with a Mac.

Otherwise, Windows is a good choice (she doesn't have much money, she can't rely solely or primarily on you for tech support, she is likely to go buy peripherals or software on her own).

That is correct.

koenn
February 6th, 2010, 09:47 PM
That is correct.
+1

except I don't know about the Mac, because I don't know anything about Mac

Alexandre Putt
February 6th, 2010, 09:50 PM
Try installing the last LTS on an Asus Eee PC 1000HE.

If the system is up and running, I do not see how this argument is going to be important. I have had problems with Ubuntu installations on some computers, but once it is done, voila! Just disable the updates for an innocent user. I can not possible imagine what could happen then.

Of course, I assume the OP will set the software himself.

As for Windows, it is stable until she opens a nasty email attachment or her antiviral software licence expires.

aysiu
February 6th, 2010, 09:50 PM
The other thing to take into consideration is that not all people who are ignorant of computers are also afraid to learn about computers. If she doesn't know much to start off with but is keen to learn, there's no reason not to be forthright about the benefits and drawbacks of each of the three major platforms and leave it up to her to decide.

MooPi
February 6th, 2010, 09:50 PM
I think the reason the argument has lasted this long is you can't make a blanket statement that Windows is better for beginners or Linux is better for beginners.

No OS is better for everyone and every situation.

A lot of deciding factors have been brought up, and those should be taken into consideration. Is this person going to buy software or hardware peripherals? Who will she most likely go to for help? Does she really have absolutely no experience with computers? What operating systems do her friends use?

If you're pretty sure she has zero experience with computers, will be turning either solely or primarily to you for tech support, and has no plans to do anything with the computer that you haven't already set up (printer, extra software, iPhone, etc.), then Linux is an obvious choice. Set her up with Debian stable or a Ubuntu LTS and leave your phone number and email address in case she has problems or questions. Teach her how to install software, explaining that she can find new software through the Ubuntu Software Center. She does not need to buy software. Also ask that if she wants to buy some other hardware (smartphone, media player, printer) that she consult you first to find the best device for her computer.

If she isn't relying solely on you for tech support, and she has a bit of expendable income, set her up with a Mac.

Otherwise, Windows is a good choice (she doesn't have much money, she can't rely solely or primarily on you for tech support, she is likely to go buy peripherals or software on her own).

Sound advice, Bravo. Some of the opinions expressed here today have opened my eyes to the vagaries of our user base. I personally try to persuade people to try Ubuntu or Linux versus Microsoft because I feel it is superior. I was deluded to assume that most of the forum responders felt the same way. Ooops

Zoot7
February 6th, 2010, 09:51 PM
Core Component Fragmentation, a new version of X11 will be released with no backwards compatibility so that certain drivers or video cards just won't work without downgrading.

That there is one of the most detrimental things when it comes to Linux in general.
I've lost count of the times a large update has broken core functionality over the years. Kernel updates being one of the major suspects among many other things.

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 09:53 PM
Just disable the updates for an innocent user.

Security Updates are just not required I take it?

fewt
February 6th, 2010, 09:56 PM
Just disable the updates for an innocent user. I can not possible imagine what could happen then.

Please turn in your license to use computers if you cannot possibly imagine what would happen to a computer that wasn't patched.

Gold Star: :KS

Just wait until she clicks the "Upgrade" button instead of "Update".

Wait, she isn't patched? Right, that's why her computer doesn't boot anymore and her credit card numbers belong to the Russian mafia.

Alexandre Putt
February 6th, 2010, 10:00 PM
Wow what is with the hate of "old" people...

My grandparents do alot more then you suggest.

Nothing, really. I assumed an old person just starting using computers wouldn't have too many needs. This does not generalize.



If I left them with ubuntu and its breaking every update I would have to fix their problems daily..

I am asked once in a while to fix some of my parents' friends computers. They constantly have problems with something not working properly. I wish they all didn't use Windows. Of course, this is limited personal experience. I am just saying that Windows is not as solid as you imply.

fewt
February 6th, 2010, 10:01 PM
That there is one of the most detrimental things when it comes to Linux in general.
I've lost count of the times a large update has broken core functionality over the years. Kernel updates being one of the major suspects among many other things.

A new change to devkit-power breaks scripts in /etc/pm/power.d. Guess what, that breaks my software for Ubuntu users.

Nothing in my product has changed since last October when I decided not to work on it any longer.

Trigger script works before devkit-power update.

Trigger script no longer works AFTER devkit-power update.

That means when you pull the power cord, your Eee PC won't go into power save mode automatically, or to high performance mode when it's plugged back in.

Huh, wonder how the end users will react to that one. (I have been the target of that fallout, the last time was just before October 6, 2009).

Zoot7
February 6th, 2010, 10:07 PM
A new change to devkit-power breaks scripts in /etc/pm/power.d. Guess what, that breaks my software for Ubuntu users.

Nothing in my product has changed since last October when I decided not to work on it any longer.

Trigger script works before devkit-power update.

Trigger script no longer works AFTER devkit-power update.

That means when you pull the power cord, your Eee PC won't go into power save mode automatically, or to high performance mode when it's plugged back in.

Huh, wonder how the end users will react to that one. (I have been the target of that fallout, the last time was just before October 6, 2009).
Good Point. They're going to see their battery life lasting a lot less in comparison to Windows, and they're most certainly not going to care about what any Linux advocates say.

Another thing that comes to mind are Hal updates breaking mounting when I gave Arch a shot a while back.

Can you imagine the hullabaloo that would ensue if Microsoft of Apple were guilty of something like this?

Alexandre Putt
February 6th, 2010, 10:09 PM
Security Updates are just not required I take it?

Do you know many security updates that broke the OS or the major applications?

The update manager can filter "important security updates" from anything else. Not even mentioning that if you decide to install say 9.04, the majority of the security updates will have been already released, so the update will be done concurrently with the first installation.

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 10:09 PM
Zoot7: It would be totally unacceptable, the argument against that would be "Linux is free", well just because it's free doesn't mean that these things should be ignored like that, if they even want to get a higher market share those things must be fixed. But they won't be because of the zealous attitude.


Do you know many security updates that broke the OS or the major applications?

You just contradicted yourself, you said you'd disable the updates.

Icehuck
February 6th, 2010, 10:10 PM
Good Point. They're going to see their battery life lasting a lot less in comparison to Windows, and they're most certainly not going to care about what any Linux advocates say.

Another thing that comes to mind are Hal updates breaking mounting when I gave Arch a shot a while back.

Can you imagine the hullabaloo that would ensue if Microsoft of Apple were guilty of something like this?

Don't get my started on HAL and breakage while on Arch.

MacJack
February 6th, 2010, 10:14 PM
Mac OS X is probably the easiest OS I've owned, the drag n drop implementation is godly.

Yet it offers complex command line acumen for users that want to go there.

Zoot7
February 6th, 2010, 10:20 PM
Zoot7: It would be totally unacceptable, the argument against that would be "Linux is free", well just because it's free doesn't mean that these things should be ignored like that, if they even want to get a higher market share those things must be fixed. But they won't be because of the zealous attitude.
Well in fairness the zealous attitude isn't prevelent when one considers the vast majority of other distros. It's particularly prevelent when it comes to Ubuntu because the attitude is very much install Ubuntu instead of Windows/Mac and See the Light!! Bug #1 is the prime example.

And yes indeed it would be totally unacceptable in Apple/Microsoft's case. That's not to say they're both totally innocent when it comes to fairly substantial issues/bugs, but the fact of the matter is that it happens FAR more often across the Linux ecosystem when it comes to the desktop.

Alexandre Putt
February 6th, 2010, 10:20 PM
You just contradicted yourself, you said you'd disable the updates.

I think you're taking the point too far. It is possible to disable all updates or allow security updates. Both ways are reasonable for a novice.

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 10:22 PM
Disabling all updates is unreasonable, because by all you mean including security updates. It's unreasonable if you like it or not.

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 10:25 PM
Please turn in your license to use computers if you cannot possibly imagine what would happen to a computer that wasn't patched.

Gold Star: :KS

Just wait until she clicks the "Upgrade" button instead of "Update".

Wait, she isn't patched? Right, that's why her computer doesn't boot anymore and her credit card numbers belong to the Russian mafia.

You are implying that Ubuntu is insecure and Windows is secure? Are you serious?

Non-patched Linux is 10x more secure than Windows will ever be, with or without patches. There are thousands exploits in Windows. Windws' security model is "make so many holes so cyber criminals can't decide which to use first". It is a joke.

All point made about ease of use for begginer actualy apply to OS X. Windows is not easy to use, expecialy no compared to Ubuntu.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 10:25 PM
Mac OS X is probably the easiest OS I've owned, the drag n drop implementation is godly.

Yet it offers complex command line acumen for users that want to go there.
I, too, would agree. The Mac interface is much more designed toward a desk than Windows or Linux is. If you expect that dragging this text on the desktop should store it in a file, it does. If you expect an image to transfer from Safari to Mail from a simple drag, it does.

It also doesn't break horribly per update.

wojox
February 6th, 2010, 10:26 PM
Get her Windows. I live down in South Florida and there are all kinds of Widows Groups she can join. Not to mention if something goes wrong her neighbour or someone could probably help her if your busy at the moment. Not to mention, as much as I'd like to see Linux grow and become more mainstream, it's still for the tech savy.

Alexandre Putt
February 6th, 2010, 10:27 PM
Disabling all updates is unreasonable, because by all you mean including security updates. It's unreasonable if you like it or not.

If you are maintaining someone else's computer, it may be better if you take care of the updates yourself (maybe even remotely). As such, there is no difference.

And I don't believe that the thread concerns critical applications. If you are administering a computer network at a research institute, that's one thing. Helping out your mom is another. They call for different approaches.

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 10:28 PM
If you are maintaining someone else's computer, it may be better if you take care of the updates yourself (maybe even remotely).

You shouldn't have to, you've just backed up why Linux is not suitable for a beginner.

Alexandre Putt
February 6th, 2010, 10:32 PM
You shouldn't have to, you've just backed up why Linux is not suitable for a beginner.

And in which precise way have I done so? There are many good reasons to start with Linux, and I think they were outlined above.

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 10:33 PM
You shouldn't have to, you've just backed up why Linux is not suitable for a beginner.

Windows Update is risky too, it can lend you "critical update" which destroys your licence. It is called Windows Genuine Advantage.

PS: And I am yet to see how Linux updates are risky, or why are even necessary if are perceived risky.

NoaHall
February 6th, 2010, 10:34 PM
Windows Update is risky too, it can lend you "critical update" which destroys your licence. It is called Windows Genuine Advantage.

What ARE you talking about? xD

thatguruguy
February 6th, 2010, 10:34 PM
You just contradicted yourself, you said you'd disable the updates.

Actually, I think he was pointing out that it's possible to set up update manager to only download security updates.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 10:34 PM
And in which precise way have I done so? There are many good reasons to start with Linux, and I think they were outlined above.
If you have to remotely manage updates in order to make sure that applications don't break as a result, that's not a reliable system and therefore not a system suitable for beginners.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 10:35 PM
Windows Update is risky too, it can lend you "critical update" which destroys your licence. It is called Windows Genuine Advantage.
This is gibberish.

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 10:35 PM
Windows Update is risky too, it can lend you "critical update" which destroys your licence. It is called Windows Genuine Advantage.

Yep, it's pretty damn unlikely that it will screw up a valid and genuine Windows license. The number of times Linux has broken through updates far outweighs the times Windows has, and that's because of the way Linux is designed in most cases.

chriswyatt
February 6th, 2010, 10:37 PM
I've heard Windows installations being borked by service pack updates, my Mum's PC messed up after a service pack update, someone at my workplace also mentioned a service pack update breaking their installation.

Ubuntu only release small fixes and security updates, so, the update manager is probably less likely to break anything. I've only ever had problems using beta versions of Ubuntu or from using external repositories, other than that I haven't had any issues.

wojox
February 6th, 2010, 10:41 PM
What ARE you talking about? xD

Sounds like someone has been playing with Pirated Software ;)

Alexandre Putt
February 6th, 2010, 10:42 PM
If you have to remotely manage updates in order to make sure that applications don't break as a result, that's not a reliable system and therefore not a system suitable for beginners.

Well, I guess we are using different Linux'es. Mine doesn't break to pieces, while yours does. What am I doing wrong?

By the way, I am not saying how things should be done. And I am not saying how they should be done for an average person. I am trying to show what one could do for this peculiar situation, and this is just one possible way. Ubuntu out of the box is stable and reliable enough for most novice users once it is set (hardware works etc.). Don't try to make me think that Windows is better in this sense, it's not like I've not set it up for different people. It has problems, too, and it attracts them like a magnet.

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 10:43 PM
Yep, it's pretty damn unlikely that it will screw up a valid and genuine Windows license. The number of times Linux has broken through updates far outweighs the times Windows has, and that's because of the way Linux is designed in most cases.

I rarely saw update screws Linux distro, unless you compiled your own kernel and apps. In Ubuntu you just use jockey for GFX driver and APT for programs and there is no problems. And when problem happens, it is because propriatary drivers. So just pick hardware with open drivers, and no problemo.

On the other side, I had lots of problems with WGA on Windows laptops and desktops with legit OEM licence. (not mine, I work as tech support). It usualy goes off when you flash BIOS or install some virtual drive emulator, like Alchohol120%.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 10:45 PM
I rarely saw update screws Linux distro, unless you compiled your own kernel and apps. In Ubuntu you just use jockey for GFX driver and APT for programs and there is no problems. And when problem happens, it is because propriatary drivers. So just pick hardware with open drivers, and no problemo.

If Ubuntu relies on Open Source drivers to work, it will continue to not be ready for the masses. Proprietary software is an essential part of a successful desktop OS.

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 10:45 PM
So just pick hardware with open drivers

Hooray for restrictions.

Icehuck
February 6th, 2010, 10:46 PM
On the other side, I had lots of problems with WGA on Windows laptops and desktops with legit OEM licence. (not mine, I work as tech support). It usualy goes off when you flash BIOS or install some virtual drive emulator, like Alchohol120%.

I never seen either of those cause WGA to bork Windows.

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 10:55 PM
If Ubuntu relies on Open Source drivers to work, it will continue to not be ready for the masses. Proprietary software is an essential part of a successful desktop OS.

Linux has greatest out-of-the-box hardware support of all OSes and just graphics drivers are not open source. And that is about to change.

So, why do you prefer closed drivers when open proved to be better? Or you just looking for ways to continue fallacious argument that Linux has no hardware support?

Twitch6000
February 6th, 2010, 10:55 PM
I rarely saw update screws Linux distro, unless you compiled your own kernel and apps. In Ubuntu you just use jockey for GFX driver and APT for programs and there is no problems. And when problem happens, it is because propriatary drivers. So just pick hardware with open drivers, and no problemo.

On the other side, I had lots of problems with WGA on Windows laptops and desktops with legit OEM licence. (not mine, I work as tech support). It usualy goes off when you flash BIOS or install some virtual drive emulator, like Alchohol120%.

You sir are ignoring the truth.

With every so called upgrade ubuntu breaks.

Want proof just look at the release notes.

Where as with windows an update is just that. It doesn't break your system..

MooPi
February 6th, 2010, 10:55 PM
My experiences have never had a Linux update bork a system. If you are using a special kernel and tweaking your system hard then updates may bork a setup and this is the risk of cutting edge. Or your just careless with your updates and don't pay attention to what's being updated. My experience with Microsoft updates is not much different. Other peoples computers have shown me how systems get borked. The problems arise from user error and lack of knowledge about their system. Multiple security programs , and every app under the sun starting at startup, multiple toolbars and search assistants tend to break systems. Not official updates, which are very important and useful. User error............system borkers.

Twitch6000
February 6th, 2010, 10:56 PM
Linux has greatest out-of-the-box hardware support of all OSes and just graphics drivers are not open source. And that is about to change.

So, why do you prefer closed drivers when open proved to be better? Or you just looking for ways to continue fallacious argument that Linux has no hardware support?

Linux with the best out of the box support.. Don't make me laugh..(maybe when compared to windows 2000 or xp,but windows 7 is way better)

The closed source drivers are better then the open source because, I can get 3d out of the box,youtube and other sites work in full screen,and I can play games. I am usign an nvidia card btw.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 10:56 PM
Linux has greatest out-of-the-box hardware support of all OSes and just graphics drivers are not open source. And that is about to change.

So, why do you prefer closed drivers when open proved to be better? Or you just looking for ways to continue fallacious argument that Linux has no hardware support?
I think you have a problem with drawing conclusions, none of which I have even implied toward.

I'm saying that if there is this big push to end proprietary anything, the Linux platform will never progress.

Sashin
February 6th, 2010, 10:59 PM
Not proprietary anything, just graphics drivers.

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 11:00 PM
The Open Drivers have temporarily bricked my hardware in the past. My Xbox 360 controller if used on a kernel 2.6.25 or older will be completely useless until the power is completely shut off, either by turning the computer off at the mains or pulling the controller out.

My Graphics card (ATi HD4850) will display artefacts on other OS's if I've rebooted into them from Linux without turning the power off, yeah it's obviously doing the hardware good. Also the open drivers do not make the hardware perform optimally.

Also Microsoft updates don't tend to include things like, possible filesystem corruption with files over 512MB.

Linux000
February 6th, 2010, 11:08 PM
Ubuntu, just tell her not to go and but software for it.

Twitch6000
February 6th, 2010, 11:11 PM
Ubuntu, just tell her not to go and but software for it.

Why so you can hide the truth that ubuntu is not supported very well?


Oh and lol @ your sig. Ubuntu is not better then windows xp that is why .

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 11:11 PM
Also Microsoft updates don't tend to include things like, possible filesystem corruption with files over 512MB.

Haha, +1.

DeadSuperHero
February 6th, 2010, 11:12 PM
That said, I see a lot of potential with the Gallium3D technologies. I think it'll at least help in standardizing how Linux graphics drivers even work to begin with.

Are open drivers good? Not really, not right now anyways. Perhaps in the future, Gallium will help alleviate the problem. Or not. We'll just have to wait and see.

Techsnap
February 6th, 2010, 11:14 PM
The Open Drivers are getting there (ATi), but to get any sort of 3D I have to compile mesa, dri, 2.6.32 and X from source usually, I don't think your beginner wants to do that. Also even that makes the card as good as a card from 2002.

"It's getting there", "It will be ready soon" are NOT suitable excuses for giving the OS to a new user.

koenn
February 6th, 2010, 11:24 PM
Where as with windows an update is just that. It doesn't break your system..
You, sir, are ignoring the truth.

I have seen WGA, installed through Windows updates, acting up on completely legit systems.

XP service pack 2, also automatically deployed through Windows Upates, was notorious for having programs suddenly stop working.

And recently, on of my suppliers of custom software warned me to skip certain updates because they conflicted with his software.

Twitch6000
February 6th, 2010, 11:27 PM
You, sir, are ignoring the truth.

I have seen WGA, installed through Windows updates, acting up on completely legit systems.

XP service pack 2, also automatically deployed through Windows Upates, was notorious for having programs suddenly stop working.

And recently, on of my suppliers of custom software warned me to skip certain updates because they conflicted with his software.
Okay maybe I never ran into that big whoop.

Where as ubuntu you can almost bet with each update something bad will happen.

Or atleast with every "upgrade" hell even canicoal themself show that ubuntu's upgrades are just bad things waiting to happen.

Icehuck
February 6th, 2010, 11:28 PM
XP service pack 2, also automatically deployed through Windows Upates,



Must have been a Belgium thing as Service Pack 2 didn't auto deploy unless you specified Windows Update to automatically update everything.

chris200x9
February 6th, 2010, 11:29 PM
I can't believe no one mentioned arch yet.

mickie.kext
February 6th, 2010, 11:38 PM
I'm saying that if there is this big push to end proprietary anything, the Linux platform will never progress.
You need to read stableapinonsense.txt (http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/gregkh/misc/2.6/stable-api-nonsense-2.6.10-rc2.patch).

Hate to spoil your fun but "the big push" is actualy helping linux.



Where as ubuntu you can almost bet with each update something bad will happen.

Or atleast with every "upgrade" hell even canicoal themself show that ubuntu's upgrades are just bad things waiting to happen.

Are you serious? Which distro are all you update-fobics using? I never had problem with updates in recent history(especialy not with Ubuntu). Few months ago I thougt my NIC driver failed affter update, but then I realised that it has nothing to do with update. My NIC died natural death. That is only problem "with update" I can think of in past year, and I manage lots of computers and servers. Most of them ruining some UNIX-like OS

koenn
February 6th, 2010, 11:43 PM
Must have been a Belgium thing as Service Pack 2 didn't auto deploy unless you specified Windows Update to automatically update everything.

IIRC, it would deploy automatically on systems with the default settings, which would be the case for most home users, and small, unmanaged environments.

wojox
February 6th, 2010, 11:45 PM
I can't believe no one mentioned arch yet.

She'd probably have a heart attack.

koenn
February 6th, 2010, 11:45 PM
I can't believe no one mentioned arch yet.
you obviously haven't read the whole thread

pwnst*r
February 6th, 2010, 11:48 PM
you obviously haven't read the whole thread

Or the title or the first post for that matter.

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 11:51 PM
You need to read stableapinonsense.txt (http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/gregkh/misc/2.6/stable-api-nonsense-2.6.10-rc2.patch).

Hate to spoil your fun but "the big push" is actualy helping linux.

Nonsense, the person who wrote that has no experience working for a company who pushes drivers. If the company suddenly has to update a driver because the platform they develop for changes, they'll become less enthused, especially if that system is minuscule. Note why many Linux drivers suck, badly.

A non stable API/ABI is that stick that breaks Linux's knees every time they heal back up. Don't put a lot of faith into kernel developers, they don't interact with business much. Nearly all of them live in fantasy land where life is perfect and all code is free.

chris200x9
February 7th, 2010, 12:02 AM
you obviously haven't read the whole thread

yes I have if he installs it, and doesn't give her the root password, as he has said in previous posts, what is the issue?

Techsnap
February 7th, 2010, 12:03 AM
This:

http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/910

MooPi
February 7th, 2010, 12:06 AM
Nonsense, the person who wrote that has no experience working for a company who pushes drivers. If the company suddenly has to update a driver because the platform they develop for changes, they'll become less enthused, especially if that system is minuscule. Note why many Linux drivers suck, badly.

A non stable API/ABI is that stick that breaks Linux's knees every time they heal back up. Don't put a lot of faith into kernel developers, they don't interact with business much. Nearly all of them live in fantasy land where life is perfect and all code is free.
Why are you here on this forum if you have such disdain for Linux, the kernel developers, platform etc.............. Really what is your agenda ?

mickie.kext
February 7th, 2010, 12:10 AM
@Frak

Person who wrote that happens to work at Novell, developing Linux kernel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Kroah-Hartman

You obviously did not read it carefully. This actually help companies to support Linux.

And user-space ABI/API is very stable. This only applies to in-kernel APIs. Another prof you did not read carefully.

@Techsnap

Most of that got fixed with first update. Microsoft did not even bothered to list shortcomings of Vista and W7.

RiceMonster
February 7th, 2010, 12:11 AM
Why are you here on this forum if you have such disdain for Linux, the kernel developers, platform etc.............. Really what is your agenda ?

To destroy Linux, obviously.

Techsnap
February 7th, 2010, 12:12 AM
Most of that got fixed with first update.

That's why GRUB2 still takes ages to load if you have it on a different drive to the one that the Linux system is installed on.

koenn
February 7th, 2010, 12:13 AM
Why are you here on this forum if you have such disdain for Linux, the kernel developers, platform etc.............. Really what is your agenda ?

here's a clue:
http://linsux.org/forum/index.php?/topic/5774-uf-never-disappoints/page__st__940
look at post 946 and following

Techsnap
February 7th, 2010, 12:14 AM
This is Ubuntu Forums, anything you want to discuss with Linsux should be done at the appropriate place and not here. The forum staff do not want an inter-site war and I don't think it's fair to be discussing Linsux on UF.

MooPi
February 7th, 2010, 12:14 AM
So you've come clean hmmmm Microsoft FUD pushers. I will have to tell my superiors about this infraction. Chuck Norris may be paying you a visit. Have you noticed the black helicopter circling ?

Techsnap
February 7th, 2010, 12:14 AM
You need to read the site, because many of us are and have been Linux users longer than a lot of people on this forum.

Frak
February 7th, 2010, 12:17 AM
And user-space ABI/API is very stable. This only applies to in-kernel APIs. Another prof you did not read carefully.

Wow, you are clueless. FYI, you can't do everything in userspace.

MooPi
February 7th, 2010, 12:20 AM
You need to read the site, because many of us are and have been Linux users longer than a lot of people on this forum.
Doubtful if you predate me, but we have stepped woefully off post and I must bid au revior

fewt
February 7th, 2010, 12:24 AM
You are implying that Ubuntu is insecure and Windows is secure? Are you serious?

Non-patched Linux is 10x more secure than Windows will ever be, with or without patches. There are thousands exploits in Windows. Windws' security model is "make so many holes so cyber criminals can't decide which to use first". It is a joke.

All point made about ease of use for begginer actualy apply to OS X. Windows is not easy to use, expecialy no compared to Ubuntu.


No, I implied nothing of the sort. Non-patched Linux may not be as insecure as unpatched Windows, but it is still insecure. Re-thinking, depending on the vulnerability it may well be just as insecure as unpatched Windows.

koenn
February 7th, 2010, 12:25 AM
This is Ubuntu Forums, anything you want to discuss with Linsux should be done at the appropriate place and not here. The forum staff do not want an inter-site war and I don't think it's fair to be discussing Linsux on UF.
If the UF staff thinks there is anything inappropriate about what I posted, I'm sure they will let me know.
Also, I'm not discussing linsux, I'm just providing context for someone who asked.

Apart from that, I find that 'no inter site war' policy rather ironical while at the same time there's that thread actively ridiculing threads and members of this forum.
But anyway ...

Techsnap
February 7th, 2010, 12:26 AM
Apart from that, I find that 'no inter site war' policy rather ironical while at the same time there's that thread actively ridiculing threads and members of this forum.

A different forum doesn't fall under UFs CoC. Also this is the Internet.

Frak
February 7th, 2010, 12:28 AM
Apart from that, I find that 'no inter site war' policy rather ironical while at the same time there's that thread actively ridiculing threads and members of this forum.
But anyway ...

The rule here is to be classy and polite. Be respectful and think before you type.

The rule there is directly equivalent to the first rule of Fight Club.

pwnst*r
February 7th, 2010, 12:30 AM
So you've come clean hmmmm Microsoft FUD pushers. I will have to tell my superiors about this infraction. Chuck Norris may be paying you a visit. Have you noticed the black helicopter circling ?

I think you need to learn to read.

koenn
February 7th, 2010, 12:32 AM
A different forum doesn't fall under UFs CoC. Also this is the Internet.
I'm aware of that. I just see the irony.

NoaHall
February 7th, 2010, 12:38 AM
Seriously, grow up kids. The Linsux community doesn't dislikes GNU/Linux, it dislike those of you who act like Ubuntu is the best thing in the whole world, that it will cure AIDS and bring global peace. By reacting in this way when the FACTS are pointed out to you, you simply strengthen the dislike for this community.

fewt
February 7th, 2010, 12:49 AM
You need to read stableapinonsense.txt (http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/gregkh/misc/2.6/stable-api-nonsense-2.6.10-rc2.patch).


I've read that, it's an excuse not to expose a stable interface for binary or source based drivers.

It's nothing more than an excuse. It's a developers reasoning that new code is better than a stable driver interface.

It is completely idiotic.

"What you want is a stable running driver, and you get that only if your driver is in the main kernel tree"

See my favorite bug #404262 in launchpad, the one that kernel panics Eee PCs using the driver in the main kernel tree.

That's one example of many why it's the stupidest idea on earth to not expose a stable driver interface.

Windows has done this since Windows 95, and has been completely successful. Does that mean that all vendors write good drivers? NO, but neither do people working on the Linux kernel.

'nuff said.

koenn
February 7th, 2010, 12:50 AM
Seriously, grow up kids. The Linsux community doesn't dislikes GNU/Linux, it dislike those of you who act like Ubuntu is the best thing in the whole world, that it will cure AIDS and bring global peace. By reacting in this way when the FACTS are pointed out to you, you simply strengthen the dislike for this community.

I have no problem with people being critical of Linux, or GNU/Linux, or whatever. And I find blatant fanboyism pretty annoying too.
But, seriously, I hardly see a difference between the behavior of these Linsux Youth and that of the Linux Youth. They're both one-sided, biased, and obnoxious.

OrangeCrate
February 7th, 2010, 12:52 AM
Off topic much boys?

Frak
February 7th, 2010, 12:53 AM
Off topic much boys?
Actually, it's very on-topic.

fewt
February 7th, 2010, 12:53 AM
So you've come clean hmmmm Microsoft FUD pushers. I will have to tell my superiors about this infraction. Chuck Norris may be paying you a visit. Have you noticed the black helicopter circling ?

I'm a RedHat Certified Engineer, and have worked with Linux for more than 14 years.

That said, I still recommend that the OP install Windows.

Thanks for playing the game.

nothingspecial
February 7th, 2010, 12:56 AM
Anyone else like Hawkwind ?

OrangeCrate
February 7th, 2010, 12:59 AM
An older lady wants to get her first computer and wants me to teach her the basics.
I can build one for her easily, but my dilemma is: Wich OS to install.
My gut feeling tells me ******* but that really upsets me.
What do you think ?
You gotta realize that if an app says "press any key to continue", she might call me in the middle of the night asking: "Where is the 'any' key ?"
It has happened to me before, in the good old time of DOS.


Actually, it's very on-topic.

On topic to what? Certainly not the OP's request for help. This thread has turned into a fanboi cat fight.

mickie.kext
February 7th, 2010, 01:00 AM
Seriously, grow up kids. The Linsux community doesn't dislikes GNU/Linux, it dislike those of you who act like Ubuntu is the best thing in the whole world, that it will cure AIDS and bring global peace. By reacting in this way when the FACTS are pointed out to you, you simply strengthen the dislike for this community.

No, Linsux just want open source, linux and/or Ubuntu to look bad. Some of you hate one of the three, some all. Some are really just messing around and trying to point on real shortcomings of Ubuntu/Linux/FLOSS, but other are just plain malicious and want to see FLOSS dead. And when you are in bunch, one can't tell the difference between malicious ones and jokey ones. So you are all regarded as malicious.

Ironically, you are the ones who spark zealotry in community because nobody wants to to talk about shortcomings of FLOSS/Linux/Ubuntu in front of people who say that shortcomings are all Linux/Ubuntu/FLOSS has. So people resort to zealotry just to counter your zealotry. Nobody wins. It is maybe fun for you, but it is also very stupid.

NoaHall
February 7th, 2010, 01:01 AM
No, Linsux just want open source, linux and/or Ubuntu to look bad. Some of you hate one of the three, some all. Some are really just messing around and trying to point on real shortcomings of Ubuntu/Linux/FLOSS, but other are just plain malicious and want to see FLOSS dead. And when you are in bunch, one can't tell the difference between malicious ones and jokey ones. So you are all regarded as malicious.

Ironically, you are the ones who spark zealotry in community because nobody wants to to talk about shortcomings of FLOSS/Linux/Ubuntu in front of people who say that shortcomings are all Linux/Ubuntu/FLOSS has. So people resort to zealotry just to counter your zealotry. Nobody wins. It is maybe fun for you, but it is also very stupid.

You really don't know much about the Linsux community, do you? Still, at least you try.

Icehuck
February 7th, 2010, 01:02 AM
Back on topic please.

Twitch6000
February 7th, 2010, 01:02 AM
You need to read stableapinonsense.txt (http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/gregkh/misc/2.6/stable-api-nonsense-2.6.10-rc2.patch).

Hate to spoil your fun but "the big push" is actualy helping linux.




Are you serious? Which distro are all you update-fobics using? I never had problem with updates in recent history(especialy not with Ubuntu). Few months ago I thougt my NIC driver failed affter update, but then I realised that it has nothing to do with update. My NIC died natural death. That is only problem "with update" I can think of in past year, and I manage lots of computers and servers. Most of them ruining some UNIX-like OS
Its right in the release notes of every ubuntu.

Check for yourself. Hell read the tesitmonies of others.

Sorry to break it to you,but ubuntu does break quite often.

OrangeCrate
February 7th, 2010, 01:03 AM
<deleted>

Frak
February 7th, 2010, 01:03 AM
On topic to what? Certainly not the OP's request for help. This thread has turned into a fanboi cat fight.
They're arguing that if the driver developer isn't able to keep up with development in an on-time manner, should it be considered suitable for a beginner if it breaks every update.

koenn
February 7th, 2010, 01:04 AM
Actually, it's very on-topic.
it went off-topic when it changed from 'what would be the best solution in this specific situation' to a general "Linux vs. Windows' thing.

nothingspecial
February 7th, 2010, 01:05 AM
What about marmite.

I love marmite. I eat marmite (almost) every day.

I think you should install marmite. :popcorn:

yester64
February 7th, 2010, 01:05 AM
She is just a starter. And she probably doesn't want performance, speed not any of that. Ubuntu is a good OS, but too complicated for a begginer.

Give her a Windows XP.

Yes, I vote for virus and blue screens. And in the end, its what everyone is using.

To be serious, i do not think there is a better or worse. If you can install it for her, i would do Ubuntu. Once it is setup, you don't have to worry. Updates are usually very easy to do. And most people do only web and email anyway and its free.

Twitch6000
February 7th, 2010, 01:06 AM
it went off-topic when it changed from 'what would be the best solution in this specific situation' to a general "Linux vs. Windows' thing.

Well that is basically what the op is saying..

And we are all stating are thoughts on the matter.

yester64
February 7th, 2010, 01:09 AM
Off topic much boys?

I think so. I wonder why every discussion end here on the forum in a war.
Come on, making jokes is fine but it doesn't have to be always a war. Please

NoaHall
February 7th, 2010, 01:09 AM
What about marmite.

I love marmite. I eat marmite (almost) every day.

I think you should install marmite. :popcorn:

I hate marmite! Jam is obviously the best!
Shame on you for suggesting anything other than it!

nothingspecial
February 7th, 2010, 01:10 AM
Anyone like opera?

I prefer Puccini but you can`t argue the genius of Wagner (musically).

nothingspecial
February 7th, 2010, 01:12 AM
I hate marmite! Jam is obviously the best!

I love jam, and honey.

But sometimes only marmite will do.

fewt
February 7th, 2010, 01:13 AM
No, Linsux just want open source, linux and/or Ubuntu to look bad. Some of you hate one of the three, some all. Some are really just messing around and trying to point on real shortcomings of Ubuntu/Linux/FLOSS, but other are just plain malicious and want to see FLOSS dead. And when you are in bunch, one can't tell the difference between malicious ones and jokey ones. So you are all regarded as malicious.

Ironically, you are the ones who spark zealotry in community because nobody wants to to talk about shortcomings of FLOSS/Linux/Ubuntu in front of people who say that shortcomings are all Linux/Ubuntu/FLOSS has. So people resort to zealotry just to counter your zealotry. Nobody wins. It is maybe fun for you, but it is also very stupid.

Seems like you are seriously making **** up now because you've lost your little argument.

Posts like this are the reason I joined Linsux.

NoaHall
February 7th, 2010, 01:13 AM
I love jam, and honey.

But sometimes only marmite will do.

YOU CAN'T SAY THAT ON A JAM FORUM! YOU MUST BE A TROLL OR SOMETHING! a

nothingspecial
February 7th, 2010, 01:15 AM
What about if you wanted a fun danceable (is that a word) for an old ladies party.

Maybe some NOFX ? - thay have catchy danceable tunes.

or Motorhead????

Frak
February 7th, 2010, 01:15 AM
Posts like this are the reason I joined Linsux.

I honestly had no idea you were on Linsux.

nothingspecial
February 7th, 2010, 01:16 AM
Seems like you are seriously making **** up now because you've lost your little argument.

Posts like this are the reason I joined Linsux.

Posts like this are the reason I joined jamsux

RiceMonster
February 7th, 2010, 01:18 AM
YOU CAN'T SAY THAT ON A JAM FORUM! YOU MUST BE A TROLL OR SOMETHING! a

marmite must be paying nothingspecial to spread FUD.

Icehuck
February 7th, 2010, 01:19 AM
Posts like this are the reason I joined jamsux

You're right, jam does suck. Jelly is much better, and not the dessert :p

opethfan89
February 7th, 2010, 01:19 AM
Having used windows most of my life, I would recommend a Windows XP install because, compared to MOST versions of Windows, XP is the simplest. However, ubuntu is known for its usability and friendly community (That's you guys!)

I don't think there is any harm is installing Ubuntu for her. Never too late to help expand the community, no matter how old they are.

mickie.kext
February 7th, 2010, 01:20 AM
Seems like you are seriously making **** up now because you've lost your little argument.

Posts like this are the reason I joined Linsux.

What argument I lost? I can't read all your spam. There is like 20 of you and you all making fallacious claims. I do not have time to reply to every of that.

NoaHall
February 7th, 2010, 01:21 AM
marmite must be paying nothingspecial to spread FUD.

Damn marTICK, bribing everyone they can!

nothingspecial
February 7th, 2010, 01:22 AM
marmite must be paying nothingspecial to spread FUD.

ssh -X -C -c blowfish ;)

Frak
February 7th, 2010, 01:25 AM
What argument I lost? I can't read all your spam. There is like 20 of you and you all making fallacious claims. I do not have time to reply to every of that.
When in doubt, type NO, I DUN LOOSE NOTHIN.

fewt
February 7th, 2010, 01:27 AM
What argument I lost? I can't read all your spam. There is like 20 of you and you all making fallacious claims. I do not have time to reply to every of that.

I promise you that you can verify every one of my claims.

I even gave you bug IDs.

Do you want more? You can click the website link in my sig, look for October 2009 and start reading. Every single one verifiable just like everything I've said here. Do you think I'm being misleading about being an RHCE? Verify me: 805009179442634.

You can stop lying now.

It's not that you don't have time, but rather that you can't form an argument that sticks.

nothingspecial
February 7th, 2010, 01:27 AM
marmite must be paying nothingspecial to spread FUD.

I don`t spread FUD

I spread MARMITE on my toast.

overdrank
February 7th, 2010, 01:28 AM
Closed for review

Edit by bapoumba: the thread will remain closed.