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sxmaxchine
February 5th, 2010, 03:39 AM
i was just thinking as i am currently in my IT class as school using windows. and i thought do you think that schools should teach students about linux, and why.

i think they should because linux is a great operating system and if you are wanting to get into the it business the knowledge of linux could be very helpfull.

NovaAesa
February 5th, 2010, 03:49 AM
...if you are wanting to get into the IT business the knowledge of linux could be very helpfull.

Considering the market share of Linux compared to Windows, wouldn't knowledge of Windows be more helpful than the knowledge of Linux?

Bungo Pony
February 5th, 2010, 03:49 AM
I think they should teach how to program in LOGO.

There's a lot of things I believe schools should teach. I was taught nothing but the metric system, but when I got out into the world, I had to learn to use imperial.

I think schools should stick to the basic needs of a person for post-graduation. There's the basics: reading, writing, math. Nevermind calculus, trigonometry, physics, chemistry, etc etc. I think in this day of age that typing class should be mandatory. Also, why not teach CPR? Those are two very useful things that people should learn. Nevermind teaching how to find the length of the fifth side of a lopsided pentagon. More specialized topics such as the ones I mentioned belong with the trades they require.

People would be much more educated and dare I say intelligent if the time spent in school wasn't wasted on skills that benefit only 1-20% of the students.

00ber n00b
February 5th, 2010, 03:53 AM
Shouldn't schools teach more about real world finances?

sxmaxchine
February 5th, 2010, 03:54 AM
i have to agree that windows would be much more helpfull then linux i think that if you do IT subjects students should at least be given a little bit of information about linux or even mac. What i am trying to ask is that if schools tought linux do you think it would benifit the student

JDShu
February 5th, 2010, 04:02 AM
It makes most sense for a high school IT class to teach all three. Its not like they get very in depth anyway.

RiceMonster
February 5th, 2010, 04:11 AM
Only for for IT courses (networking and software development related). I don't see the point for anything else.

phrostbyte
February 5th, 2010, 04:15 AM
I think schools are clearly not doing enough to teach basic writing and spelling skills. Perhaps they should work on improving that first.

jrusso2
February 5th, 2010, 04:15 AM
Any IT school should offer UNIX/Linux classes

MasterNetra
February 5th, 2010, 04:39 AM
Any IT school should offer UNIX/Linux classes

ITT-tech does. At the very least one of its courses provides a linux class. I forget which though. Not sure if there is more then one class of it though.

aysiu
February 5th, 2010, 04:42 AM
Considering the market share of Linux compared to Windows, wouldn't knowledge of Windows be more helpful than the knowledge of Linux?


Shouldn't schools teach more about real world finances?


What i am trying to ask is that if schools tought linux do you think it would benifit the student

Schools should absolutely teach Linux. More details here:
Teach kids computer skills, not computer programs (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/teach-kids-computer-skills-not-computer-programs/)

MLColejr
February 5th, 2010, 05:22 AM
I graduated an IT school 21/2 years ago and we actually had a Linux class that prepped for the Comptia Linux + but since Windows xp is the most stable business environment that Bill Gates ever put out and because it is pre-installed on almost all store bought systems it is the most widely used by the masses so Windows will be a viable OS and will be the focus of most IT classes for a long time to come. You can always choose to study the Linux curriculum and make more money because it is specialized (in the U.S. anyway)

Frak
February 5th, 2010, 05:50 AM
My peers in high school could barely read, you think teaching a Linux OS should be a higher priority?

JDShu
February 5th, 2010, 05:54 AM
My peers in high school could barely read, you think teaching a Linux OS should be a higher priority?

This would be a case where you don't teach IT at all for now.

Roasted
February 5th, 2010, 06:06 AM
Considering the market share of Linux compared to Windows, wouldn't knowledge of Windows be more helpful than the knowledge of Linux?

Why not both?

I find Linux extremely important to be aware of. Far too many people have NO idea what Linux is. Some people think it's all Windows and Mac.

There's a distant thought of Linux being included as part of a lab in the school district I look forward to. I'd be very interested to see how it plays out.

RiceMonster
February 5th, 2010, 06:13 AM
Why not both?

I find Linux extremely important to be aware of. Far too many people have NO idea what Linux is. Some people think it's all Windows and Mac.

I don't understand why that's a reason to teach it. Most people have NO idea what OS/400 is. Should they teach that as well?

mamamia88
February 5th, 2010, 06:37 AM
linux is the future so of course they should teach it

Roasted
February 5th, 2010, 06:52 AM
I don't understand why that's a reason to teach it. Most people have NO idea what OS/400 is. Should they teach that as well?

That's a real stretch man. Linux is something that an average user is likely to run into, or at least hear about, with it being used in desktops (as well as servers). If OS/400 were something that a typical user could use and would likely run into, I'd see it. But that's not the case.

MLColejr
February 5th, 2010, 07:00 AM
my peers in high school could barely read, you think teaching a linux os should be a higher priority?


lmao!!!

had to edit this one lol . I m not laughing at the illiteracy of your classmates, that is a sad fact but the statement was funny as hell lol

sxmaxchine
February 5th, 2010, 07:04 AM
My peers in high school could barely read, you think teaching a Linux OS should be a higher priority?

i dont think linux is a priority subject but like i said i was in my IT class and i meant that they should teach it in an IT class, or even offer it as an elective you can choose to do if the school can manage it.

Khakilang
February 5th, 2010, 08:31 AM
They should teach language like English the basic form of communication.

doorknob60
February 5th, 2010, 08:45 AM
Should schools tech linux

Maybe, but I think basic spelling is a higher priority :)

Techsnap
February 5th, 2010, 09:32 AM
No they shouldn't, it's not a good idea to teach something which they most probably would not use in the real world. If students want to do Linux related stuff when they leave school then it is up to them to do this at a college or university.

newbie2
February 5th, 2010, 11:41 AM
Schools have a social mission: to teach students to be citizens of a strong, capable, independent, cooperating and free society. They should promote the use of free software just as they promote recycling. If schools teach students free software, then the students will tend to use free software after they graduate. This will help society as a whole escape from being dominated (and gouged) by megacorporations.

What schools should refuse to do is teach dependence. Those corporations offer free samples to schools for the same reason tobacco companies distribute free cigarettes to minors: to get children addicted (1). They will not give discounts to these students once they've grown up and graduated.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/schools.html
;)

Grenage
February 5th, 2010, 11:48 AM
Schools are there to give a rounded education, so I don't think anything other than covering the existence of Linux is required. Students can specialise in college or university.

The majority of school students aren't going into I.T, so they don't need to know about an OS they are unlikely to encounter. Hell, I'd be surprised if a school teacher had even used Linux.

madnessjack
February 5th, 2010, 12:13 PM
Surely Macs are the next priority after Windows?

ElSlunko
February 5th, 2010, 12:27 PM
I really REALLY wish I had more experience in Unix / Linux before entering college. Of course if I have no intention of going the IT route in college, then I suppose it wouldn't have mattered.

samjh
February 5th, 2010, 12:47 PM
I think students should be taught how to use computers with Windows, Mac, and Linux (Gnome and KDE). It will take at most two or three hour lessons for children in late primary or junior secondary school to learn basic web browsing and word processing using any of those operating systems (IE & Word for Windows, Safari and OO for Mac, and Firefox and OO for Linux). Not a big deal, really.

sxmaxchine
February 5th, 2010, 12:54 PM
I think students should be taught how to use computers with Windows, Mac, and Linux (Gnome and KDE). It will take at most two or three hour lessons for children in late primary or junior secondary school to learn basic web browsing and word processing using any of those operating systems (IE & Word for Windows, Safari and OO for Mac, and Firefox and OO for Linux). Not a big deal, really.

i agree with you fully there.

madnessjack
February 5th, 2010, 01:06 PM
I think students should be taught how to use computers with Windows, Mac, and Linux (Gnome and KDE). It will take at most two or three hour lessons for children in late primary or junior secondary school to learn basic web browsing and word processing using any of those operating systems (IE & Word for Windows, Safari and OO for Mac, and Firefox and OO for Linux). Not a big deal, really.
They're not going to have the time! Maybe studying ONLY computers, but even when I did my Information Systems GCSE, we were too busy learning about documents, presentations, speadsheets and desktop publishing to learn on alternative OSes.

Also wouldn't Microsoft Office be a more popular choice on a Mac?

Techsnap
February 5th, 2010, 01:13 PM
I think students should be taught how to use computers with Windows, Mac, and Linux (Gnome and KDE). It will take at most two or three hour lessons for children in late primary or junior secondary school to learn basic web browsing and word processing using any of those operating systems (IE & Word for Windows, Safari and OO for Mac, and Firefox and OO for Linux). Not a big deal, really.

That's unrealistic, as madnessjack said, it takes long enough for the students to learn basic tasks to get their coursework done, like changing fonts, converting to PDF and using a suitable file structure. It's not the priorities list to be playing with other Operating Systems.

As said before, people who want to use different OS will take the correct course when they join a college or university. Lower down the school it's just not required and it's as simple as that. Lets take maths for example, in school the students will learn the basics and some little extras to get them by on a day to day basis with maths. However if you wanted to go more in depth, you'd take it as a subject for further education.

audiomick
February 5th, 2010, 01:25 PM
Yes they should. If only to teach people that there are alternatives.
Teaching kids at school only windows only serves to support the windows "monopoly"

Techsnap
February 5th, 2010, 01:47 PM
No they teach standard ways of working more than anything in schools. Most people don't even know or care what Windows is. As I said it's not practical to be teaching a bunch of kids stuff about Operating Systems especially if they're never intending to go into computing.

RiceMonster
February 5th, 2010, 02:24 PM
That's a real stretch man. Linux is something that an average user is likely to run into, or at least hear about, with it being used in desktops (as well as servers). If OS/400 were something that a typical user could use and would likely run into, I'd see it. But that's not the case.

A typical user will pretty much never really run into Linux, unless their geek friend installs Ubuntu on their computer when they ask them to fix it, it will never happen. Typical users will never have to manage a server, either. I don't know where this idea that they will is coming from.

JDShu
February 5th, 2010, 02:56 PM
A coupple more points:

From a broader perspective, there is definitely a benefit to pushing everybody towards using Linux. Education is a good way to start this push. Of course, this decision would need to be made at the government level.

Don't insult people's intelligence. If a kid can use Windows, they can probably use one of the major distributions. Changing fonts? Converting PDFs? This is not impossible stuff. Its unfortunate that people often believe students to be incompetent and lower their expectations - to the detriment of the students.

My high school taught us how to use Acorn OS. NOBODY uses Acorn OS. But common computer tasks were taught and it was simple to transfer the skills to Windows. So maybe "teaching Linux" is not so important as letting people play with it and learn about what it is.

Oh yeah GCSE IT is a joke.

Bachstelze
February 5th, 2010, 03:07 PM
Schools shouldn't teach any OS, they should (and do) teach how to do basic tasks like using word processing and spreadsheet programs, that kind of stuff. And yes, I think they should do it in Linux (read RMS's essay on that matter (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/schools.html)) no other Free OS is convenient enough for that usage yet. OpenOffice is more than good enough to teach middle-schoolers how to use a word processor, and as the previous poster said, that knowledge will be easily transferrable to MS Office should the need arise.

madnessjack
February 5th, 2010, 03:07 PM
Teaching kids at school only windows only serves to support the windows "monopoly"
It's about what's best for THEM. If businesses use Windows, then surely they're better off learning Windows? Unless you can prove me wrong...

Oh yeah GCSE IT is a joke.
Excuse me? I get plenty of browny points off of my boss because I'm good with Word and Excel. Because I was taught all of this from a young age, I'm now confident when it comes to working in the REAL world.

ratcheer
February 5th, 2010, 03:13 PM
I think schools are clearly not doing enough to teach basic writing and spelling skills. Perhaps they should work on improving that first.

+1

Tim

JDShu
February 5th, 2010, 03:14 PM
Excuse me? I get plenty of browny points off of my boss because I'm good with Word and Excel. Because I was taught all of this from a young age, I'm now confident when it comes to working in the REAL world.

Haha sorry if you're offended. Maybe the curriculum changed for the worse. People in my school were all laughing at GCSE IT for its very silly and easy exam questions. The only difficult thing was the coursework. The grading of which was a joke in itself, as students printed hundreds of pages. Apparently more pages equaled better grades.

Roasted
February 5th, 2010, 04:32 PM
They're not going to have the time! Maybe studying ONLY computers, but even when I did my Information Systems GCSE, we were too busy learning about documents, presentations, speadsheets and desktop publishing to learn on alternative OSes.

Also wouldn't Microsoft Office be a more popular choice on a Mac?

As he said, it's not a big deal. When you know Microsoft Office, the layout, how it works, etc, OpenOffice is not that hard to adapt to.

I even work in a school district, and I'm failing to see the complication. No time? Come on... We're not talking about GCSE training, or to be a Linux network admin. The basics. What it is. The background. The acknowledging of the fact that other things exist besides Windows.

Bachstelze
February 5th, 2010, 04:36 PM
Also wouldn't Microsoft Office be a more popular choice on a Mac?

Not really. MS Office for Mac is notoriously horrible.

http://store.apple.com/us/reviews/TQ744LL/A?fnode=MTY1NDA0OA&mco=MTA4NDE5ODI

Roasted
February 5th, 2010, 04:42 PM
A typical user will pretty much never really run into Linux, unless their geek friend installs Ubuntu on their computer when they ask them to fix it, it will never happen. Typical users will never have to manage a server, either. I don't know where this idea that they will is coming from.

Did I say users will have to manage a server? o.O No... I didn't. Most users who aren't into computers at all won't care no matter what. But there are a ton of computer classes in the district I work for. It would be very logical to at least brush upon the basics of other operating systems so people are more aware of what exists out there.

I'm not saying to even install Linux and be like hey great here you go let's do xyz. I'm talking about just making users aware that other things exist besides Windows and Mac by having a discussion about it for a little bit. Perhaps some screen shots to show the difference in all of the major platforms for visual purposes. However, I believe if they do this in schools, having a Linux class once a year would make sense, so users could explore that class if the crash-course they received before sparked enough interest. It makes sense.

madnessjack
February 5th, 2010, 04:49 PM
Not really. MS Office for Mac is notoriously horrible.
What, and OpenOffice.org isn't? :P

We use it at work, I really like it.

timmy_sprinkles
February 5th, 2010, 05:04 PM
I don't feel people should have to be forced to use Linux. Windows does have the largest market share and is the most supported operating system out there. Most people just simply don't have the need to use Linux.

RiceMonster
February 5th, 2010, 05:27 PM
Did I say users will have to manage a server? o.O No... I didn't.

Then what did you mean by this:


Linux is something that an average user is likely to run into, or at least hear about, with it being used in desktops (as well as servers).

The only way I can possibly think that Linux use on a server would be relevant to them is if they're managing it.


It would be very logical to at least brush upon the basics of other operating systems so people are more aware of what exists out there.

Who cares what exists? How about focusing on what is useful. I'm fine with a more OS-agnostic approach, but teaching Linux "because it's out there" to everyday (not IT) people, does not seem justifiable to me.


I'm not saying to even install Linux and be like hey great here you go let's do xyz. I'm talking about just making users aware that other things exist besides Windows and Mac by having a discussion about it for a little bit. Perhaps some screen shots to show the difference in all of the major platforms for visual purposes.

What would be the gain from this?


However, I believe if they do this in schools, having a Linux class once a year would make sense, so users could explore that class if the crash-course they received before sparked enough interest. It makes sense.

I'm not following how it makes sense. What exactly are we gaining here? If they're interested in computers, they can pursue it in College or University. There they can learn about Linux/UNIX and find if it sparks their interest.

jenaniston
February 5th, 2010, 05:35 PM
No mention that I found in quick perusing these posts about . . . finding teachers . . . ?

Do high schools have many - if any - teachers that they could even offer an elective class in basic linux - as either college prep or vocational IT curriculum -
IF a school district wanted to offer linux instruction ?

Bachstelze
February 5th, 2010, 05:37 PM
I don't feel people should have to be forced to use Linux. Windows does have the largest market share and is the most supported operating system out there. Most people just simply don't have the need to use Linux.

People being forced to use Windows just because it has the highest market share doesn't make sense either. For example, the highest grossing movie of all time as of now is Avatar. I would really hate to be forced to see it.

Simian Man
February 5th, 2010, 05:43 PM
People being forced to use Windows just because it has the highest market share doesn't make sense either. For example, the highest grossing movie of all time as of now is Avatar. I would really hate to be forced to see it.

That's a dumb example because you seeing Avatar would not help you excel in the world. If someone goes to college / gets a job, chances are their professors / employers will expect them to use Windows and Office for assignments. So knowing how to use that software will be advantageous.

There is no point in teaching the general population how to use Linux. Useful to you != useful in general.

red_Marvin
February 5th, 2010, 05:51 PM
Who cares what exists? How about focusing on what is useful.
If they don't know it exists, it cannot be useful to them, hence in order for them to make informed desicions, at least the larger groups should be mentioned, e.g. on a top level categorisation; Windows and *NIX.

As you said, schools should be os agnostic, but today they often are windows specific, e.g. computer class is "How to use MSO".

The argument that that MS should be taught because it is common fails, it is akin to driving tutors should use $COMMON_CAR_BRAND.

RiceMonster
February 5th, 2010, 05:54 PM
If they don't know it exists, it cannot be useful to them, hence in order for them to make informed desicions, at least the larger groups should be mentioned, e.g. on a top level categorisation; Windows and *NIX.

But how would it be useful for them?

red_Marvin
February 5th, 2010, 06:04 PM
Why should we teach X, when they might only use Y in the job.
What I mean is that predicting peoples futures are a risky business to say the least, and because of this, the education should be as open ended as possible.

jenaniston
February 5th, 2010, 06:18 PM
Why should we teach X, when they might only use Y in the job.
. . . the education should be as open ended as possible.

A saying that applies to both . . . criminal prosecutors with alleged perpetrators . . .
as well as to . . . teachers confronted with (students') open minds . . .

"throw whatever you got at them and see what sticks"

Bachstelze
February 5th, 2010, 06:19 PM
If someone goes to college / gets a job, chances are their professors / employers will expect them to use Windows and Office for assignments. So knowing how to use that software will be advantageous.

"Chances are"? I don't know where you live, because in 6 years of university, I have never ever been even asked to use Windows.

EDIT: oh never mind, it's below your avatar. Oh well, there might be some conclusions to draw from that...

thatguruguy
February 5th, 2010, 06:19 PM
A saying that applies to both . . . criminal prosecutors with alleged perpetrators . . .
as well as to . . . teachers confronted with open minds . . .

"throw whatever you got at them and see what sticks"


Huh?

Roasted
February 5th, 2010, 06:34 PM
Then what did you mean by this:
The only way I can possibly think that Linux use on a server would be relevant to them is if they're managing it.


Oh, I see how what I said made you think about managing servers. What I meant in my head as I typed that was a lot of servers use Linux, more than anybody out there is probably aware of. I was just iterating the fact that Linux is out there in huge masses, but a lot of it is on the server side, so despite the fact users might be on Windows, they might be hitting a Linux server in the background without knowing it. It wasn't me saying servers are important for people to learn - I just meant making people aware of its high usage in the background might be an interesting thing to throw out on the table. This is of course from the standpoint of an IT related class in the first place. As I said (and I think we both agree on), your average user won't give a damn. They just won't. But if it's a computer class, why not throw out some fun facts that might make people kind of surprised?

Again, I'm just speaking from a very small scale standpoint. Anybody can print out a wikipedia article on Linux and do a quick "this is Linux, this is Mac, etc" even if they're not that familiar with it. I just wished I would have learned more about operating systems when I was in school instead of all of the nonsense ways to credit sources on papers, in MLA format or whatever, and how to use certain features in Office that I have yet to come across in the work field - and I even work with Office in IT every single day.

I think minor exposure with knowing more about the IT world in computer classes than Windows XP, coupled with the potential chance of (if interest is high enough) Mac and Linux classes, I think it'd be a good combination.

blur xc
February 5th, 2010, 06:41 PM
Not really. MS Office for Mac is notoriously horrible.

http://store.apple.com/us/reviews/TQ744LL/A?fnode=MTY1NDA0OA&mco=MTA4NDE5ODI

Really? Everyone one I know that has a Mac says that MS Office for Mac is way better than MS Office for windows... But then again- if that's true, it's only saying MS Office for windows sucks that much more over iworks...

BM

llawwehttam
February 5th, 2010, 06:41 PM
Lol. When I got into year 7 ( the first year of high school) we were taught what a kernel is, how to ssh and sftp and a few basic commands such as 'cd' 'ls' 'mkdir' etc....
At that point the school used fedora 1 (yarrow) running on LTSP thinclients which were running from bootable floppy disks to get them to boot from the network.
Started out with kde 3.1.

Yes the teacher was completely ignoring the curriculum but it was worth it for me.


That's a dumb example because you seeing Avatar would not help you excel in the world. If someone goes to college / gets a job, chances are their professors / employers will expect them to use Windows and Office for assignments. So knowing how to use that software will be advantageous.

There is no point in teaching the general population how to use Linux. Useful to you != useful in general.

What ?????

I am about to go to university which has 100% dual boot machines some mac/linux some windows/linux some BSD/Unix/Linux .
To do ANY programming it is best to be using linux/unix.( except for visual basic of course)

LightB
February 5th, 2010, 06:43 PM
There's no need to learn anything about windows, it's moot. Ok, maybe take a 1 day course called "point and click, sometimes press f1". That, to go through the formalities of getting a course out of it, because most people who use a computer will already know that. Linux is another story and it would be helpful to be taught it if you ever use it.

As far as the argument of what's used more. Maybe instead there should be a course titled "DVD watching"?

jenaniston
February 5th, 2010, 06:51 PM
Why should we teach X, when they might only use Y in the job.



to . . . teachers confronted with open minds . . .

"throw whatever you got at them and see what sticks"



Huh?

Maybe it loses something in translation . . . sorry 'bout 'dat.

Simian Man
February 5th, 2010, 07:02 PM
"Chances are"? I don't know where you live, because in 6 years of university, I have never ever been even asked to use Windows.


I am about to go to university which has 100% dual boot machines some mac/linux some windows/linux some BSD/Unix/Linux.

Well congratulations. Yes if you stick with academic computer science, you can avoid Windows software alltogether. I also have used predominately Linux for the past 6 years of my academic/work life (except for a few classes with Excel). But if you think that is the rule and not the exception, you're deluding yourself.


EDIT: oh never mind, it's below your avatar. Oh well, there might be some conclusions to draw from that...[/i]
WTF? Because I live in the South, you're implying...what exactly?

ZeroSpawn
February 5th, 2010, 07:10 PM
In my schooling for Electronic Engineering it was required to learn it.

oldos2er
February 5th, 2010, 08:09 PM
Maybe, but I think basic spelling is a higher priority :)

I would've said schools should tech tech.

gletob
February 5th, 2010, 09:34 PM
I think they should teach how to program in LOGO.

There's a lot of things I believe schools should teach. I was taught nothing but the metric system, but when I got out into the world, I had to learn to use imperial.

I think schools should stick to the basic needs of a person for post-graduation. There's the basics: reading, writing, math. Nevermind calculus, trigonometry, physics, chemistry, etc etc. I think in this day of age that typing class should be mandatory. Also, why not teach CPR? Those are two very useful things that people should learn. Nevermind teaching how to find the length of the fifth side of a lopsided pentagon. More specialized topics such as the ones I mentioned belong with the trades they require.

People would be much more educated and dare I say intelligent if the time spent in school wasn't wasted on skills that benefit only 1-20% of the students.


My schools system is already ahead of you, Freshman Health/PE students (Aka every freshman) get's taught CPR. And all Freshman starting this 09-10 school year will be required to complete a Keyboarding class to receive a diploma.

And I agree that much of our time is wasted on learning things that aren't completely necessary to our life or career.

MichealH
February 5th, 2010, 09:45 PM
Such a shame My school Bought Windows 7 They could of used Karmic :P

And/Or Buy System 76 Computers :lolflag:

samjh
February 6th, 2010, 12:39 AM
Such a shame My school Bought Windows 7 They could of used Karmic :P

And/Or Buy System 76 Computers :lolflag:

I think the people who pointed out the shortcomings of spelling and grammar training at schools have a point here. ;)

sxmaxchine
February 6th, 2010, 02:45 AM
thanks for all the opinions and it does help people reading to understand what students should learn.

also i use windows at school and ubuntu 9.04 at home and i have very good compatibility between them as my Open office files can be opened by open office and MSO on the windows pc, i do agree that windows would be more important but i also think that teaching other OS's would be very helpful if you go into the IT busines.

also if they learn a bit about Linux it could help students that cant afford to buy windows or MSO.

also after a little more thought i think that if they installed the windows versions of programs found on linux (e.g. Open office and MS Office, gimp and photoshop).

earthpigg
February 6th, 2010, 03:25 AM
Considering the market share of Linux compared to Windows, wouldn't knowledge of Windows be more helpful than the knowledge of Linux?

cubicle dwellers and the uneducated are the primary users of MS Windows.

it's no different than during the Industrial 'Revolution', when the purpose of public schools was to teach children to be future factory drones - while those that could get into the nice schools where taught to manage the factories.

folks that run webservers and supercomputers tend to use linux.

the local Community College i am attending is entirely Windows.

Berkeley, where i want to go, is a different story entirely. Windows-centric courses seem to have been added to their course catalog as an afterthought.

the parallel isn't exact, i will concede, but i find it relevant.

similarly: the worlds top doctors tend to be non-smokers.

the uneducated and poor masses feature the highest concentrations of smokers.

whom do you think it's best to emulate, assuming one hasn't done any tobacco/computer science research of their own (yet)?

Frak
February 6th, 2010, 06:36 AM
Not really. MS Office for Mac is notoriously horrible.

http://store.apple.com/us/reviews/TQ744LL/A?fnode=MTY1NDA0OA&mco=MTA4NDE5ODI
What's terrible is that iWork is even worse, in my opinion at least. I've yet to see a good office suite on Mac.

samantha_
February 6th, 2010, 06:57 AM
I actually had a teacher that knew about linux (ubuntu to be exact). that was while I was in grade 12. teachers are allowed (at my school at least) to bend the school board curriculum. she taught it for about 2 weeks. that was when I got interested. (ive actually been on here for some time already, but sadly, I cant remember my origional account name and password......)( i have a bad habit of making the web browser remember my username.....)

deathrow
February 6th, 2010, 07:21 AM
Hi, I'm new here and almost new with Ubuntu (mean Linux), since the first time my sister show me Linux, went to my PC, downloaded Ubuntu distro and start using it.
The first was 7.10 and now is 9.10 and growing.
Now I have both, Ubuntu 9.10 and Windows 7 installed. I use normally Ubuntu, like 90 %, and 10 for Windows.
But why I still working with Windows? cuz my job, suddenly, I need somethin I cannot do (at least in that moment) with Ubuntu, switch to Windows and averything is Ok; example, If I have a problem with a server and cannot log in using Terminal Services I can try through iLO but it says only runs under IE and is not installed yet in Ubuntu and Im in a hurry!!, switch to Win and everything is Ok now!!

I think it would be better if at school anywhere you can say, they could teach students about Operative Systems, not Windows or Ubuntu; using dual boot for students to choose whatever they want.

Sorry for my English, I'm from Guadalajara, Mxico!!

Gallahhad
February 6th, 2010, 07:30 AM
I'd like to see schools teach MS Windows, Apple OSX, and some distribution of GNU/Linux(CS Teachers discretion is fine with me).

I would also like to see schools teaching about other operating systems like BSD, Unix, and Minix.

Schools should not be just about what is popular, it should be about expanding minds, teaching progress, and encouraging thinking outside the box.

Sure, kids currently need Microsoft Windows, and it should get its due time in the academic spotlight. But the reality of the situation is that the MS Windows "classes" that my kids take, literally insult their intelligence; they are far more advanced from simply using computers at home(as most kids these days are), than the material they are getting in Jr. Highschool. Indeed, my 12 year old complained recently that the computer curriculum has not changed since 3rd grade, this is appalling.

Nerd King
February 6th, 2010, 09:43 AM
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/teach-kids-computer-skills-not-computer-programs/ as posted earlier says all I'd say on the matter. Teach kids how to use computers, not how to use MS Office or the Linux Terminal or iLife or whatever. Let them use old and new stuff, let them create content rather than just mindlessly consuming it, and you'll have a generation of hackers before you even know it ;)

Gadgetech
February 6th, 2010, 09:47 AM
I think schools are clearly not doing enough to teach basic writing and spelling skills. Perhaps they should work on improving that first.

i thnk thay R doing a gr8 job teeching speling an righting

Seriously though, I think they should expose students to several OS's. Computer classes should also expose kids to programming so they get an idea of what it takes to make computers actually do something useful.

blur xc
February 7th, 2010, 08:09 PM
i thnk thay R doing a gr8 job teeching speling an righting

Seriously though, I think they should expose students to several OS's. Computer classes should also expose kids to programming so they get an idea of what it takes to make computers actually do something useful.

When I was in highscool, computer class taught comp. lit (word processing, spread sheet, file management skills) for the first semester, and programming the 2nd. My first year it was on apple IIe's, and the next year was on IBM clones using DOS and then programming in qbasic, if memory serves...

BM

fewt
February 7th, 2010, 08:58 PM
Schools should absolutely teach Linux. More details here:
Teach kids computer skills, not computer programs (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/teach-kids-computer-skills-not-computer-programs/)

At the end of the day, Linux and Windows are just computer programs and neither should be taught in a classroom. Instead computing principles should be taught.

Principles like basic troubleshooting (problem identification and resolution, flowcharting issues), touch typing, smart internet use including avoiding scams and trojans, basic word processing, basic spreadsheets, a simple functional programming class.

The operating system itself should not be relevant to the class. Leave the OS training to the people that build the operating systems (RedHat RHCT, Microsoft MCP).

I agree with teaching skills not programs.

Kenny_Strawn
February 7th, 2010, 09:15 PM
Absolutely. Linux is the only OS to ever run the IT business. M$ just has a small portion of the server market. Servers almost always run Linux, especially data centers. If you have WinDoze on a data center, you're a small minority.

HermanAB
February 7th, 2010, 10:16 PM
Considering that there are about 2.5 billion Linux devices out there, versus less than 1 billion Windows systems, ignoring Linux/UNIX in school would be ill advised.

clanky
February 7th, 2010, 10:34 PM
Absolutely. Linux is the only OS to ever run the IT business. M$ just has a small portion of the server market. Servers almost always run Linux, especially data centers. If you have WinDoze on a data center, you're a small minority.

I lol'd (proper actual iRL LOL)

Nice one Lenny

Hwt
February 7th, 2010, 10:38 PM
Considering the market share of Linux compared to Windows, wouldn't knowledge of Windows be more helpful than the knowledge of Linux?

You're looking at the marketshare desktop-wise. The server marketshare is totally different, and there, Linux and UNIX both dominate.

sh4rkbyt3
February 7th, 2010, 11:00 PM
Why not teach both? Yes CPR and finances would be nice and useful and in most schools those classes (at least in my area) are taught. However, when I was in school (early 80's), the pre-requisite for any computer classes was trigonometry which has absolutely nothing to do with normal computer operations. That eliminated many potential students who did truly want to learn computer operations and programming. Windows is of course the most widely used OS so it's necessity is imperative for people to learn it. That being said though, it's also as useful for students to learn another OS just as we require two languages in most schools to graduate. In the IT field you will be working mostly with Windows products but for pentesting and extensive network security I feel that Linux is a much better OS for that purpose. In most schools today Windows is already being used as well as at home so to me the focus then should be to introduce Linux OS's as an alternative. One school in my area (DelMarVa) did teach Linux OS's and that was how I was initially introduced to Linux by one of the students who I worked with at a part-time job. While I am still a Nube, I am persistent in wanting to learn Linux (Ubuntu/Backtrack) because I believe it will open up a new world of very useful technology to me. So my opinion why not teach Windows, Linux and Apple in schools and allow students to pick what they want to learn?

Twitch6000
February 7th, 2010, 11:03 PM
i was just thinking as i am currently in my IT class as school using windows. and i thought do you think that schools should teach students about linux, and why.

i think they should because linux is a great operating system and if you are wanting to get into the it business the knowledge of linux could be very helpfull.

Only for servers. For desktop use I do not see why they should.

Heck when it comes to servers they should teach solaris and bsd.

rottentree
February 8th, 2010, 12:02 AM
Schools should absolutely teach Linux. More details here:
Teach kids computer skills, not computer programs (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/teach-kids-computer-skills-not-computer-programs/)

I have to agree with this!

Frak
February 8th, 2010, 03:39 AM
Considering that there are about 2.5 billion Linux devices out there, versus less than 1 billion Windows systems, ignoring Linux/UNIX in school would be ill advised.
The difference is that your phone only gives you a limited amount of functions. Learning how to use Linux will do zilch for learning how to use a phone or connect to a website.

Kenny_Strawn
February 8th, 2010, 03:44 AM
The difference is that your phone only gives you a limited amount of functions. Learning how to use Linux will do zilch for learning how to use a phone or connect to a website.

Yes, but.... Those devices also include netbooks, and will probably increase in number, thanks to Google ('http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/').

Frak
February 8th, 2010, 03:51 AM
Yes, but.... Those devices also include netbooks, and will probably increase in number, thanks to Google ('http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/').
If you can use a web browser, you can use Chrome OS. Period.

Kenny_Strawn
February 8th, 2010, 03:56 AM
If you can use a web browser, you can use Chrome OS. Period.

My point is that Chrome OS *IS* a GNU/Linux distribution with a full Ubuntu terminal.

The GUI in Chrome OS is different than Ubuntu's, but the shell is exactly the same.

Oh, and Chrome OS also has X.

Frak
February 8th, 2010, 04:18 AM
My point is that Chrome OS *IS* a GNU/Linux distribution with a full Ubuntu terminal.

The GUI in Chrome OS is different than Ubuntu's, but the shell is exactly the same.

Oh, and Chrome OS also has X.
That's good.

Users will never see it. They won't want to either, that's not the point.

Kenny_Strawn
February 8th, 2010, 04:20 AM
That's good.

Users will never see it. They won't want to either, that's not the point.

Yes, I know that users won't see it. True.

LightB
February 8th, 2010, 04:22 AM
cubicle dwellers and the uneducated are the primary users of MS Windows.

it's no different than during the Industrial 'Revolution', when the purpose of public schools was to teach children to be future factory drones - while those that could get into the nice schools where taught to manage the factories.

folks that run webservers and supercomputers tend to use linux.

the local Community College i am attending is entirely Windows.

Berkeley, where i want to go, is a different story entirely. Windows-centric courses seem to have been added to their course catalog as an afterthought.

the parallel isn't exact, i will concede, but i find it relevant.

You're right that it isn't exact when it comes to teaching windows. If anything, schools now are more like inverse irony related to industry. Kids before were prepared for industry in schools, now that it's not needed they go to school to stay out of the way of industry.

rob22941
February 8th, 2010, 05:36 AM
i was just thinking as i am currently in my IT class as school using windows. and i thought do you think that schools should teach students about linux, and why.

i think they should because linux is a great operating system and if you are wanting to get into the it business the knowledge of linux could be very helpfull.

High school would be a complete waste. My college does offer a Linux based course. I'm not a computer science major though. To be completely honest I hate computer classes. Prefer to learn on my own.

coldfusion1313
February 8th, 2010, 05:46 AM
I love the stories of schools having to lay off teachers because they needed to pay microsoft for windows. I think that all schools should have a Linux/UNIX class and there programming classes in linux not in visual basic like my school. That is why i am teaching myself how to program.

Techsnap
February 8th, 2010, 09:18 AM
I love the stories of schools having to lay off teachers because they needed to pay microsoft for windows.

They're probably a load of old crap, schools get Windows for next to nothing, in the UK anyways.

Viva
February 8th, 2010, 03:13 PM
Schools should teach computers not linux or windows or microsoft office

Chame_Wizard
February 8th, 2010, 05:38 PM
They teach here less Linux/BSD lessons,but professionals using FLOSS are very needed nowadays.:popcorn:

The Real Dave
February 8th, 2010, 08:26 PM
I think they should teach how to program in LOGO.

There's a lot of things I believe schools should teach. I was taught nothing but the metric system, but when I got out into the world, I had to learn to use imperial.


Wait a sec...who on earth still uses imperial measurements? :o



My own opinion, Linux ain't difficult to learn. In a year I became fairly good at it (through many hours of tinkering, breaking and re-installing ;)). Most people will spend their lives using Windows. So a knowledge of Windows is useful.

That being said, the college my sister attends, and I intend to attend, teach Computer Science through Linux, Mac and Windows. You can also do after classes in Linux. Handy ;)

coldfusion1313
February 8th, 2010, 08:50 PM
They're probably a load of old crap, schools get Windows for next to nothing, in the UK anyways.

Not really they have to pay volume licensing fees to microsoft, which cost a lot.

azagaros
February 8th, 2010, 09:33 PM
Should schools teach linux? This is a tough one to call, with the current path of technology in general. Linux is the back end that most of the computer development takes place on. It also reflects the tech knowledge'd group out there in its use patterns.

Linux is not for a novice computer user, that is for sure. For those you need a system one can turn on and do basic thinking like mac Os and the chrome OS Proposals. Windows is trying to be too many different technologies. The Ubuntu and Lime projects are trying to get the friendliness of the Mac and windows.

The general goal of a computer is to become easy enough for anyone to use with little thought. These tools need to learn to blend into the background and automate simple processes. But some of the applications out there require too many thoughts to do simple tasks.

Saw typing required in one post and I will ask which keyboard style? Again, the paths of technology derive this question. Take a look at the Iphone. Virtual keyboards that don't use standard five finger typing styles. Not to mention the keyboards that have specialize functions and I can represent on a touch screen.

Reading? The kindel reads the books to me and the technology has to become cheaper. The oral traditions are becoming relevant again for those who really need to know how to type.

Writing? In a push button world, which is filled with buttons and questions how much do I need to know to write? How much will the English language start to look like the Chinese over time?

Math? How much math do I need to know? The computer does most of the math I need to know anymore. I don't do deep math algorithms even in programming, unless I am doing fancy graphic animations and real world physics stuff.

Teaching Linux in school would depend on the path you were taking in life, which would give you a need to learn. And even then your are learning its individual tools and not the OS.

The collapsing schools are reflecting the lack of relevant information. They also reflect how much knowledge I can get on my own without a teacher. These schools are starting to reflect the impact of safety mongers and the copyright enforcers with the reduction in students attending specialized degree programs.

It is a good question what I need to teach anymore. One though is Self discipline through a martial art, a code of morality of some form, and money management. The Ability to read and write in two languages. Basic Math. Generalized logic and its context in the languages one learns. Communication skills, not the technology but the semantics of communication between people. This is the Basic educations standards I keep in mind and these are the skills I need to get by everyday.

The teaching of tools like linux and windows for specialize applications on them would be extra.

This is just a few thoughts.

Grenage
February 8th, 2010, 09:35 PM
Not that much for the education sector. It's in MS' interests, get the schools on board, students using their software. Once people are used to something it's what they'll want to use.

aysiu
February 8th, 2010, 09:39 PM
I should clarify my earlier post.

I don't believe schools should teach Linux, but I don't believe schools should not teach Linux.

Ultimately the two things that are most important are 1) the OS the schools use allow the schools to accomplish the tasks they need to accomplish (type papers, grade papers, organize events, communicate with each other, etc.) and 2) if computers are actually taught (and not just used), the teachers teach the students computer skills and not computer programs. Programs will change. OSes will change. But the basic approach to computing will not change. If you have the right attitude, you can learn a non-standard OS in school and still be just as fine as if not better than your classmates in the mainstream OS when you're actually in the workplace.

Don't forget--technology changes every year. What's mainstream today is obsolete tomorrow.

Hwt
February 8th, 2010, 10:24 PM
Wait a sec...who on earth still uses imperial measurements? :o

The customary system, which is a derivative of the old English system of measurements from which the imperial system is also derived, is the de facto standard system of measurement in the United States. Other than in the U.S., many people in the U.K. and Canada still use the Imperial System (It's mostly just old folks, there), as well, regardless of the fact that it's no longer the "official" measurement system in those places.

rottentree
February 8th, 2010, 11:12 PM
That being said, the college my sister attends, and I intend to attend, teach Computer Science through Linux, Mac and Windows.

That's not surprising. I mean it's called a Computer Science school not a Windows Science or Linux Science or Mac Science school...

agnes
February 9th, 2010, 04:22 AM
I assume you mean highschools with "schools".
No, they should nothing, it's their choice - I mean they should not be forced by law.
But they also should not give away "MS Office for Windows" for a reduced price to their pupils (like mine did), because that's too close to promoting an OS.
Teaching (basic) programming skills is what they do, can work on any platform.


That being said, the college my sister attends, and I intend to attend, teach Computer Science through Linux, Mac and Windows.
But, do they first learn you how to use Linux?
I think every study related to CS should teach you (something) about Linux in the first year, because it can get tasks easily done, plus: there should be more clarity.
E.g. on my university-faculty (not following a pure CS study), one teacher just laughed at me when I didn't know the ./configure -> make -> make install commands. In another course, it was just expected you knew (bash) shell scripts. But, how could I know, nobody ever "officially" learned it to me. Suddenly they said it was "expected from us".
For such studies there should be OS courses (probably only for Linux because the other mayor players are not sophisticated enough), but there aren't any AFAIK.
Weirdest thing is they DID teach us LaTeX.

Frak
February 9th, 2010, 05:47 AM
I love the stories of schools having to lay off teachers because they needed to pay microsoft for windows.

That's a load of crap. Microsoft donated our school 200 Windows 7 Enterprise licenses. All we had to do was tell them that we needed to upgrade but the upgrade was not in the budget. They sent us 200 VLKs free of charge.