I'm getting a Windows Refund

[blazemore]

From my post here: http://www.ghacks.net/forum/linux/im-getting-windows-refund-39/



Here's the story.
On January 10th a bought a Samsung N140 netbook with XP Home from Amazon UK for £287
I'd recommend it, it's a lovely machine, but the screen doesn't tip back far enough.

Anyway I digress.
On the 12th January it arrived. I videoed the unboxing turning on of the machine.
But what's this?
As I read the license agreement I didn't want to sign up to some of the terms Microsoft had proposed.
I looked for what to do in these circumstances and found...

IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.So (still videoing), I pressed Decline, which shut down the machine. I put it back in its box, and emailed Amazon.

Now here it has to be said that I was inspired by this article: The Open Sourcerer Getting your Microsoft Tax Refunded: 10/10 for Amazon UK! [Updated] (http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/07/21/getting-your-microsoft-tax-refunded-1010-for-amazon-uk/)

That's why the email to them is word-for-word; I thought, "If it worked for him, it'll work for me, right?"
Wrong. Read on.



01/12/10 12:18:37
Your name:**
Order No: **
Comments:Hi, I have just received a new Samsung N140 netbook, which I purchased from you.

Upon opening the box I see that the unit is supplied with Microsoft Windows XP Software. For many reasons I am unable to accept their licensing terms and so wish to enquire how I go about returning the software. I will not accept their license and plan to install Linux on this machine.

According to the agreement, I am able to claim a refund for the software.

Could you let me know the correct procedure for this, please?

ps. I point you to this article (The Open Sourcerer Getting your Microsoft Tax Refunded: 10/10 for Amazon UK! [Updated] (http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/07/21/getting-your-microsoft-tax-refunded-1010-for-amazon-uk/)
where you have given someone a refund in the same circumstances.

*whitespace removed*
Dear Customer
Thank you for writing to Amazon.co.uk
I'm sorry to hear that you do not require Microsoft Windows XP Software included with your laptop.
I can confirm that you may be entitled to a partial refund from the manufacturer. Please be informed that it is directly between the manufacturer and the customers to verify whether they are due a partial refund or not on the software.
In this case, please kindly contact "Samsung" directly who will be able to assist you with this.

I've included the contact information for the manufacturer "Samsung" below:
Website : Samsung (http://www.samsung.com/uk/support/)
Phone Number : 0870 7267864

We hope that you are able to resolve the issue soon.

Thank you for shopping at Amazon.co.uk
Right well that's not what the guy on the blog said!
I phoned Amazon and was basically told to stuff it: Windows comes with the machine and if you don't want it you can send the whole thing back.

I hung up and phoned again later. I was told to contact Samsung. I told them that they had given refund before in near-identical circumstances. They said they were "unable to comment on other customers' orders"
I asked to speak to a superviser. This is where I decided to up the ante. Bear in mind I am in the right, so I am in control. If I wanted to, I could have contacted Trading Standards at this point: "I'm entitled to a refund and they won't give me one".

So I basically told this to the floor manager (!) and she told me, yes, we'll give you a refund if you just go away (not literally).
I decided to press, and asked how much. She said she's "unable to commend at the moment" and that she'd "get back to me".
I told her than Windows XP Home SP3 retails for ~£40 ex VAT, so I expect that amount (No way would Samsung disclose their OEM pricing deal with Microsoft).
She said to go through the returns procedure on the website, but just say I'm returning the software. She said she'd put a note on my account.

The following is the SECOND returns label, I can't seem to find the first. The first one was polite and informative. I waited three days and then sent this one:


Date: 20 Jan 2010
Order ID: XXX-XXXXXXX-xxxxxxxx


Title: Samsung N140 10.1 inch Netbook (Atom N270 1.6GHz Processor, 1GB RAM, 160GB HDD, BT, XP Home, 9 Hour Battery, Black)
Quantity: 1
Reason: Arrived in addition to what was ordered
Return Details: Windows XP Home Edition. STILL no refund offered. I was assured of a full refund over the phone.Now it's been another 3 days (Today, 23rd Jan)

I phoned Amazon, and had to go through the whole process again!
"If you want to return the machine, put it back in its box, dur dur durrrr... bleh blerrgh returns procedure durrrrrr"
"No, I want a refund on the SOFTWARE. Is there not a note on my account?"
eventually
"You'll have to contact Microsoft."

I phoned Microsoft. Helpfully, they're closed on a Saturday. I can see where they're spending their billions.

I phoned Samsung. SUCCESS! The guy on the phone totally understood, he took my details and phone number, plus the serial number of the netbook and apparently I'm going to be phoned next week with details of the refund.

However, no amount was settled, so I fear this is not over...
I will update.

UPDATE 08/02/2010
I phoned Samsung up AGAIN and the guy CCd me an email...


Hi Paolo,

I have CC the Customer in on this email.

[Blazemore] has rejected the windows licence agreement and installed Linux on the laptop.

He would like to know how to get a refund on the OS as per the policy in the windows agreement?

Do you have an update on this?

Regards,

Stewart

[blazemore]

Well it's 9.30pm on Sunday night. I guess Samsung aren't going to phone!

I'll give them a ring tomorrow. I hear retailers sit up straight at the words "Trading Standards" :-)

[blazemore]

I phoned Samsung today.
Apparently head office are making a policy on this just for me, and they'll phone me back and let me know. They didn't know when, but they "hope it can be resolved soon".

[Tristam Green]

Congratulations?

[blazemore]

Not yet. I haven't got it yet.

[thecoshman]

well if it saves you even £20 its something. maybe if enough people start to demand a refund on software that they never actually asked for, companies may start to get the idea. and let people by 'blank' machines.

[blazemore]

well if it saves you even £20 its something. maybe if enough people start to demand a refund on software that they never actually asked for, companies may start to get the idea. and let people by 'blank' machines.

Amazon have given £40 before

[Grenage]

While I see where people are coming from, I don't personally buy into the whole OS refund. Laptop dealers always say if the machine comes with XP/Vista/7, and all of MS' EULA are available online. The retailers are kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Am I the only person who feels that these refunds are only ever perused by Linux zealots actively looking for something to bitch about?

[LowSky]

Good luck I guess.... But why buy a laptop with Windows and go through all this crap for a few bucks? Do yourself a favor and take your current hourly salary and now add all the time you have used calling/emailing Amazon and Sumsung. If the refund is worth more than the amount you get paid fort he same time, then I guess doing all this is justifiable.

You expected a call on Sunday?
Companies work within business hours, which are Monday to Friday

And how was this all posted withing a few minutes? Is this some kind of log you just reposted?

[Tristam Green]

Am I the only person who feels that these refunds are only ever perused by Linux zealots actively looking for something to bitch about?

No, you're not.

It's the same kind of bs like actively looking for Ubuntu Logo ripoffs by fans of the OS, rather than by Canonicals IP lawyers.

[blazemore]

While I see where people are coming from, I don't personally buy into the whole OS refund. Laptop dealers always say if the machine comes with XP/Vista/7, and all of MS' EULA are available online. The retailers are kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Am I the only person who feels that these refunds are only ever perused by Linux zealots actively looking for something to bitch about?

Find me a nice netbook that doesn't come with Windows, that ships to the UK for a reasonable price.

[blazemore]

Good luck I guess.... But why buy a laptop with Windows and go through all this crap for a few bucks? Do yourself a favor and take your current hourly salary and now add all the time you have used calling/emailing Amazon and Sumsung. If the refund is worth more than the amount you get paid fort he same time, then I guess doing all this is justifiable.

You expected a call on Sunday?
Companies work within business hours, which are Monday to Friday

And how was this all posted withing a few minutes? Is this some kind of log you just reposted?

Yes, it's from my post on the Ghacks forum. They said they'd phone "next week" 2 weeks ago. They didn't phone on the week when they said they would.
I'm a student, so I'm poor.
It's more the principle of the thing.

[Grenage]

Find me a nice netbook that doesn't come with Windows, that ships to the UK for a reasonable price.

Ok.

http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/laptops/top-8-best-linux-netbooks-621830?artc_pg=2

[CharlesA]

No, you're not.

It's the same kind of bs like actively looking for Ubuntu Logo ripoffs by fans of the OS, rather than by Canonicals IP lawyers.

Agreed. It's a bit ridiculous tbh.


Good luck I guess.... But why buy a laptop with Windows and go through all this crap for a few bucks? Do yourself a favor and take your current hourly salary and now add all the time you have used calling/emailing Amazon and Sumsung. If the refund is worth more than the amount you get paid fort he same time, then I guess doing all this is justifiable.

This. Wasting yer time is pointless. Time = Money.


Find me a nice netbook that doesn't come with Windows, that ships to the UK for a reasonable price.

Almost all netbooks/notebooks and PCs ship with Windows. Instead of crying boo hoo and demanding a "Windows refund," suck it up and just throw Linux on there if that's what you want. Save time and hassle for both you and the company.

[Rhubarb]

I tried to get a refund of xp home from asus last year. It didn't work unfortunately.
The MS EULA stated that you can get a refund from the "Manufacturer". Asus changed their story many times as to why they couldn't give me a refund, all of which simply didn't make any sense (like why didn't you buy the laptop with linux pre-installed on it - the answer was, was that no stores in Australia actually stocked that particular model laptop without windows on it).
Anyway, one of the conversations I had with asus suggested I contact MS for a refund.
MS of all people were actually quite helpful and kind. They quite rightfully said that it was the manufacturer that should honor the refund, not MS.

Next time I buy a laptop that doesn't have Linux options for it, I think I'll try much harder to get a refund.
My dealing with asus were about 3 web form postings (they had given me no email address to contact), and about 8 phone conversations.

It was quite a frustrating experience.

[steindor2]

Find me a nice netbook that doesn't come with Windows, that ships to the UK for a reasonable price.

http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=92

netbook, reasonably priced, no windows, dosn't ship to the UK though, but you should be able to find a third party to ship it for you.

[thatguruguy]

Perhaps this thread would be better entitled as, "I'm seeking a Windows Refund."

[ssam]

just buy from linux emporium.

[The Toxic Mite]

just buy from linux emporium.

++

The stuff is pretty expensive but it's worth it.

Thinkpads FTW :)

[blazemore]

Perhaps this thread would be better entitled as, "I'm seeking a Windows Refund."
Nope, I'm definitely going to get a windows refund.

[aysiu]

When it comes to netbooks, Linux users basically have only three options: Buy with Windows preinstalled. Install Linux yourself. Buy with Linux preinstalled. Buy with Windows preinstalled. Attempt to get a Windows refund. Install Linux yourself. The first two options are sensible. The third is just inviting headaches and endless phone calls and emails with only the possibility (no guarantee) of success.

Please, if you are idealistic, just buy Linux preinstalled. The options are fewer, but it's less trouble and it actually encourages OEMs to keep supplying Linux preinstalled options.

If you are not idealistic, just buy Windows preinstalled and install Linux over it. Forget the refund.

[Ubom]

For every person who supposedly gets a refund there are many who don't. I question the reliability of the articles that say otherwise. I think there are only a few people who really have been given the refund and I find it very unlikely for anyone other than the manufacturer of the device to be giving out refunds.
If you don't like it just send the whole thing back. In the end the cost of calls and time wasted will probably end up costing you more than a potential refund does.

[aysiu]

I also question the long-term viability of this.

OEMs that give too many Windows refunds may fall out of grace with Microsoft, which will not be to their economic benefit. And by making it easier for Linux users to get refunds, all the OEM would be doing is encouraging more Linux users to attempt to get refunds.

You can't create a revolution by begging for it from the people you're trying to revolt against.

If you want a viable long-term strategy for removing the "Windows tax," it is supporting Linux preinstalled options, however limited they are at this point. If all you care about is the short-term, buy Windows preinstalled and forget about the refund.

[jrusso2]

Nice job your showing a lot of stick to it here.

[speedwell68]

I got a Windows refund from PC World. My Uncle's new Acer desktop was not supplied with the software needed to create the Windows recovery discs. After many heated disscussions with the 'numpties' at the Tech Guys about why I couldn't create the discs I was put throught to PC World head office. I explained that the missing software rendered the PC to be not of merchantable quality. I also explained that I owned a copy of my own Operating System software, Linux Mint, and that I was happy to accept a refund for the value of the operating system. They refunded £44 into my Uncle's account.

[RabbitWho]

I'd pay the 20 quid not to have to do all that, but I guess principle is a fine thing.




If you want a viable long-term strategy for removing the "Windows tax," it is supporting Linux preinstalled options, however limited they are at this point. If all you care about is the short-term, buy Windows preinstalled and forget about the refund.

If there is a demand for linux they should know that and they should fill it.
They don't have to worry about falling out of grace with microsoft, in the future microsoft will be begging PC manufacturers to preinstall their product.

[aysiu]

If there is a demand for linux they should know that and they should fill it. The best way to show a demand is to buy Linux preinstalled where it already exists.


They don't have to worry about falling out of grace with microsoft, in the future microsoft will be begging PC manufacturers to preinstall their product. I'm not talking about the future. I'm talking about now. If your business is selling non-Apple laptops or netbooks, you're going to lose a lot of money if you suddenly have to pay full price on Windows licenses instead of the OEM discount.

[mickie.kext]

Hm... I see business opportunity.

Buy bunch of laptops with Windows preinstalled, remove windows and refund it, and then install linux and sell laptops, or sell them blank.

Microsoft lose money and goes bankrupt eventualy, and I laugh all the way to the bank...

oh crap, I should not tell publicly about my masterplan

How I delete this message?

[aysiu]

Buy bunch of laptops with Windows preinstalled, remove windows and refund it, and then install linux and sell laptops, or sell them blank. How are you going to get refunds on all those laptops?

[mickie.kext]

How are you going to get refunds on all those laptops?

I will say I don't like EULA :popcorn:

I mean, obviously I was kidding but maybe it can be done for real...

[Crunchy the Headcrab]

I'm curious how much money your TIME is worth. How much money are you saving per hour you've been dealing with this problem?

[xpod]

I didn`t have to spend too much time with our girls deciding whether to buy pre-installed Linux Netbooks somewhere off the Internet(with the potential for headaches & even longer waits if any hardware issues ever occurred during warranty) or just go to some nice local shop and buy pre-installed Windows machines then install Linux ourselves.....Argos won the day.

I also didn`t have to spend any time deciding whether to try for any Windows refunds later on because the prospect of me having to spend all that time on the phone arguing the point with umpteen people who dont want to listen just didn`t appeal to me.
Even if i didn`t have to call any premium rate numbers to get said refund though i`m quite sure i could earn more just staying off the phone than i could with the possible hours & days on the thing trying to get £30-£40 back for Windows. Besides, me chasing partial refunds back for their Xmas pressies just wouldn`t have seemed right somehow.

EDIT: Good luck either way.

[blazemore]

I didn`t have to spend too much time with our girls deciding whether to buy pre-installed Linux Netbooks somewhere off the Internet(with the potential for headaches & even longer waits if any hardware issues ever occurred during warranty) or just go to some nice local shop and buy pre-installed Windows machines then install Linux ourselves.....Argos won the day.

I also didn`t have to spend any time deciding whether to try for any Windows refunds later on because the prospect of me having to spend all that time on the phone arguing the point with umpteen people who dont want to listen just didn`t appeal to me.
Even if i didn`t have to call any premium rate numbers to get said refund though i`m quite sure i could earn more just staying off the phone than i could with the possible hours & days on the thing trying to get £30-£40 back for Windows. Besides, me chasing partial refunds back for their Xmas pressies just wouldn`t have seemed right somehow.

EDIT: Good luck either way.

It's a matter of principle. I bought a car, I don't want the fuzzy dice that came with it! I never took the fuzzy dice out of their packet, and according to "ACME fuzzy dice ltd." I'm entitled to a refund.

[Queue29]

It's a matter of principle. I bought a car, I don't want the fuzzy dice that came with it! I never took the fuzzy dice out of their packet, and according to "ACME fuzzy dice ltd." I'm entitled to a refund.

You aren't entitled to a refund. The EULA states that if you don't agree to the license, you can ship the thing back and get a full refund, it says nothing about being able to split the package and get a partial refund for the things you don't like. The success story comes from a guy who got lucky, and was becoming so much of a PITA on the phone and over email that somebody just credited his account to get him to STFU.

In any case, you shouldn't have purchased a MS product in the first place if you're so against them.

[aysiu]

In any case, you shouldn't have purchased a MS product in the first place if you're so against them. Exactly.

Sort of or not against, buy Windows and just wipe it out. No refund.

Really against, buy Linux preinstalled. No Windows at all to worry about.

Have a lot of time on your hands and want no guarantee you won't be strapped with Windows but are still against it, good luck getting a refund. Roll up those sleeves!

[phrostbyte]

Good work. If people keep doing this maybe OEMs will get a clue that not everyone wants poor quality software forcibly bundled with their computers.

[Giant Speck]

In any case, you shouldn't have purchased a MS product in the first place if you're so against them.

This.

It's like buying coffee and then demanding the store take the caffeine out of it for you because you chose not to just buy decaffeinated coffee.

[Techsnap]

You don't buy something with Windows preinstalled if you know you're going to reformat it to another OS right away, the only reason you would do that is so you could just claim "I Got a refund from Microsoft for not accepting the EULA" in which case why buy it in the first place. Perhaps next time I buy a laptop I'll rip the DVD drive out and say I don't want it.

[mickie.kext]

DVD drive and crappy OS are not the same. DVD drive is needed.



In any case, you shouldn't have purchased a MS product in the first place if you're so against them.

Are you aware how hard it is to find computer without Windows in some countries? And even when you find it, it is usually low spec and often is overpriced.

[Techsnap]

No you buy the laptop as a package with the OS. You know you're buying it.



Are you aware how hard it is to find computer without Windows in some countries? And even when you find it, it is usually low spec and often is overpriced.

Well then you're still getting it cheaper with an OS installed, what more could you ask for?

[mickie.kext]

Well then you're still getting it cheaper with an OS installed, what more could you ask for?
I ask for decent computer (for decent price) which is not infested with Windows! Is that to much to ask?

[ebozzz]

You don't buy something with Windows preinstalled if you know you're going to reformat it to another OS right away

Well, I actually did just that because at the time I found that the machine with Windows preinstalled was actually less expensive than a comparable Linux counterpart with Ubuntu preinstalled. But, I did not ask for a refund for the Windows OS...

[Georgesl]

http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=92

netbook, reasonably priced, no windows, dosn't ship to the UK though, but you should be able to find a third party to ship it for you.

Problem is, their stuff is pretty much as expensive as their competition that is loaded with M$.

Also, my experience (with 2 different computers) is that they ship hardware with known incompatibilities. They have tech support in this forum, but the only support I received is "Reload the proprietary drivers," which did nothing, and "wait for the next release" which was not terribly helpful.

If I were overseas I wouldn't risk it.

[aysiu]

Problem is, their stuff is pretty much as expensive as their competition that is loaded with M$. If you really want to run Linux, you are not going to be saving a lot of money when compared to a Windows user.

1. Buy Windows preinstalled
Linux user - Research Linux compatibility before buying. Set up dual-boot or install Linux over Windows. Configure Linux. Takes time.
Windows user - Turn on the computer.

2. Buy Linux preinstalled
Linux user - Actually find a vendor that sells Linux preinstalled. Pay more.
Windows user - N/A

3. Buy Windows preinstalled, try for refund
Linux user - Waste a lot of time with phone calls, letters, emails, and possible small claims court appearance... may not even get a refund.
Windows user - N/A

So with Linux you're either spending extra time and energy to get back some money (which you may not even get), spending more upfront, or just spending a little more time. There is no ideal option here to save money... unless you're thinking of saving money long-term by not having to ever pay for or pirate an OS upgrade in the future.

[ebozzz]

So with Linux you're either spending extra time and energy to get back some money (which you may not even get), spending more upfront, or just spending a little more time. There is no ideal option here to save money... unless you're thinking of saving money long-term by not having to ever pay for or pirate an OS upgrade in the future.

I agree but I have more time than money right now therefore, I have chosen the option number 1 route..... ;)

[Georgesl]

No you buy the laptop as a package with the OS. You know you're buying it.

Actually, the purchaser has no idea what is included in the EULA that ships with that particular copy of the OS. Even if you could look it up on-line there is no way to know that the on-line version is identical to the legally-binding one that comes with the software. The only way to find out for sure is to purchase the machine, turn it on, and read the EULA as it is displayed. That's the reason that the OS includes a statement that says that if you don't agree you are entitled to a refund.

Now, whether the refund is for the OS or for the entire computer is (I believe intentionally) unclear. They don't actually want anyone to take them up on the offer of the refund and for that reason they keep it as ambiguous as possible. Between M$, the manufacturer and the retailer they can keep the person seeking a refund bouncing back and forth forever.

It's not fair, but that's the way it is.

[Georgesl]

If you really want to run Linux, you are not going to be saving a lot of money when compared to a Windows user.

The problem is, we should. W7 Home retails at about $200. Even after OEM discounts the version that comes pre-installed probably costs the manufacturer $100. That should be the savings if I buy a computer without the OS.

The exception might be Netbooks where the low price point and competition has caused M$ to deeply discount W7 to OEMs to keep Linux at bay. The OEM cost of the OS in this case might be down in the single digits, as it was with XP.

Unfortunately, there is no reason for the people running the game to change rules. Why should they change a system that works thus:

Use Windows: Pay M$
Use Linux: Pay M$

Nice, if you're M$

[mikewhatever]

The best way to show a demand is to buy Linux preinstalled where it already exists.

What if no vendor sells Linux in your country? What if the computer you really like is sold with Windows only? I think it makes perfect sense finding a good deal with Windows pre-installed and then asking for refund. You get the computer you want, cheep + refund, and send a message to the OEM. I'd say it's worth an effort and a few phone calls.


I'm not talking about the future. I'm talking about now. If your business is selling non-Apple laptops or netbooks, you're going to lose a lot of money if you suddenly have to pay full price on Windows licenses instead of the OEM discount.

I am sure OEMs can manage their deals with MS, and if they don't and loose money, they are still better off in the long run. Honestly, the longer they let MS milk and bully them, the more dependent they become on MS products.

[mikewhatever]

The problem is, we should. W7 Home retails at about $200. Even after OEM discounts the version that comes pre-installed probably costs the manufacturer $100. That should be the savings if I buy a computer without the OS.

The exception might be Netbooks where the low price point and competition has caused M$ to deeply discount W7 to OEMs to keep Linux at bay. The OEM cost of the OS in this case might be down in the single digits, as it was with XP.

Got 30$ discount for Windows XP I didn't want on a netbook. It's not much, but trust me, the money wasn't wasted.


Unfortunately, there is no reason for the people running the game to change rules. Why should they change a system that works thus:

Use Windows: Pay M$
Use Linux: Pay M$

Nice, if you're M$

Bingo, especially since most consumers play along meekly.

[aysiu]

What if no vendor sells Linux in your country? Well, I'm sorry that's how it is in Israel. The OP, however, is in the UK, and you can get Linux preinstalled on netbooks in the UK:
http://www1.euro.dell.com/uk/en/home/Laptops/laptop-inspiron-10/pd.aspx?refid=laptop-inspiron-10&s=dhs&cs=ukdhs1&~oid=uk~en~20211~laptop-inspiron-10_n00b1001~~
http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/products/laptops/#pidR27014

What if the computer you really like is sold with Windows only? Then buy it with Windows and don't bother with trying to get the refund. Or consider liking another computer.

[Thomas Garman]

I have an Acer Aspire One D250 with a webcam. The only reason I keep the XP installed on it is that so far as I can tell it is practically impossible to get Linux in ANY configuration to work with that webcam in such a way that it will record, which it does under XP no problem... also, I use it with my iPod Touch and I stream netflix with it (because silverlight only works with IE8.

So, anyway... that refund is only a refund if you count your time as being worth nothing, otherwise you have spent a fortune getting a refund on an operating system that does actually have value on that machine. It increases the number of uses the machine has over and above what Linux makes possible.

[Frak]

Don't bother getting a refund. It's not worth the time or effort.

[MLColejr]

While I see where people are coming from, I don't personally buy into the whole OS refund. Laptop dealers always say if the machine comes with XP/Vista/7, and all of MS' EULA are available online. The retailers are kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Am I the only person who feels that these refunds are only ever perused by Linux zealots actively looking for something to bitch about?


The principle of the matter is that we are charged an extra fee for the Microsoft OS because so many people use it and that is the deal that Bill Gates set up with IBM years ago that he subsequently struck with all the other manufacturers. This sales strategy is what made him a billionaire and it him got him in trouble with the U.S. courts. The decision of that court proceding is what gives people the right to get the refund this thread is referring to. By denying the opportunity to receive this refund Microsoft would be in violation of the antitrust act that they were prosicuted for all those years ago.

[Frak]

The principle of the matter is that we are charged an extra fee for the Microsoft OS because so many people use it and that is the deal that Bill Gates set up with IBM years ago that he subsequently struck with all the other manufacturers. This sales strategy is what made him a billionaire and it him got him in trouble with the U.S. courts. The decision of that court proceding is what gives people the right to get the refund this thread is referring to. By denying the opportunity to receive this refund Microsoft would be in violation of the antitrust act that they were prosicuted for all those years ago.
3 words:

Not Microsoft's fault.

[mikewhatever]

...
Then buy it with Windows and don't bother with trying to get the refund. Or consider liking another computer.

I guess we'd have to agree to disagree.


I have an Acer Aspire One D250 with a webcam. The only reason I keep the XP installed on it is that so far as I can tell it is practically impossible to get Linux in ANY configuration to work with that webcam in such a way that it will record, which it does under XP no problem... also, I use it with my iPod Touch and I stream netflix with it (because silverlight only works with IE8.

In case you need or want Windows on your computer and are willing to pay for it, nothing should stop you, but this thread is not about it. This thread is about someone who doesn't want to use Windows and would like to get a refund according to the EULA.


So, anyway... that refund is only a refund if you count your time as being worth nothing, otherwise you have spent a fortune getting a refund on an operating system that does actually have value on that machine. It increases the number of uses the machine has over and above what Linux makes possible.

That's what MS and OEMs would like you to believe. In fact, the OP was inspired by an Amazon customer who got his refund a day after receiving the netbook, and guess what, he didn't spend a fortune.
http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/07/21/getting-your-microsoft-tax-refunded-1010-for-amazon-uk/
...and who are all these multitudes using your computer?

[chillicampari]

Why would people even ask Amazon for the partial refund? Amazon isn't the manufacturer.

[MLColejr]

3 words:

Not Microsoft's fault.

Why is it not Microsoft's fault? Because of they're unscrupuluos actions in the past by cornering the market and forcing people to purchase they're software they were brought into the American courts to stand trial for Anti-trust practices and were found guilty. Not everyone in the world uses windows and it is not lawful to make them pay for software that they're not going to use. I, myself build my systems so I do not fall prey to MS, but for those users who want a cheap, convenient pc without windows they should have the right to make that purchase and not have to pay for the unused software. So sorry to disagree but if Microsoft refuses to give a refund it is they're fault.

[Frak]

Why is it not Microsoft's fault? Because of they're unscrupuluos actions in the past by cornering the market and forcing people to purchase they're software they were brought into the American courts to stand trial for Anti-trust practices and were found guilty. Not everyone in the world uses windows and it is not lawful to make them pay for software that they're not going to use. I, myself build my systems so I do not fall prey to MS, but for those users who want a cheap, convenient pc without windows they should have the right to make that purchase and not have to pay for the unused software. So sorry to disagree but if Microsoft refuses to give a refund it is they're fault.
Sorry that other systems were still pretty advanced for the average user, Apple decided they didn't want to directly compete with Microsoft, and Linux not maturing to the prime desktop platform because Linus even says that he doesn't care about Linux on the desktop.

You can say they cornered the market all day, but in the end, the competitors didn't put up a strong fight. (with the exception of BeOS)

[mamamia88]

damn even though i don't use windows i don't think it would be worth all that hassle

[JDShu]

Ehh of course its Microsoft's fault that you have to pay the "windows tax". Its just that you can't do anything about it. I agree with aysiu... buy a preinstall and help out Linux distributors. The money you spend on a windows computer is money that could have supported Linux.

[mikewhatever]

Does it matter who's fault it is? What matters is that linux users should get their refunds. Why is it that someone always comes to threads like this and tries steering them away from the topic.

And to all those thinking buying Windows is no big deal, I bought a computer with Windows in the past, still have it, so all of you can pay me for the license. I promise, you want be using it.

[MLColejr]

You can say they cornered the market all day, but in the end, the competitors didn't put up a strong fight. (with the exception of BeOS)[/QUOTE]

Ok. agreed, the competition was not burning Bills doors down for a piece of the pie, but that doesn't change the topic of not paying for unused software. It was ruled that charging a manufacturer or an end user for they're software if it was not used on the computer was unlawful. The agument of his competition is not the relavent issue, the issue is forcing someone to purchase a product that they're not going to use. and it shouldn't take weeks and months to get your money back either, as large and rich as microsoft is they should have no problem sending out $100 to a few linux user that don't feel they should have to support they're business

[JDShu]

Haven't you made the transaction once you buy the computer? Meaning, you've agreed to pay for the product, Windows and all.

[MLColejr]

Haven't you made the transaction once you buy the computer? Meaning, you've agreed to pay for the product, Windows and all.



No actually you haven't, the purchase you make is to obtain the computer itself. The ELUA is where you agree to the microsoft term of purchase.

[JDShu]

Hmm good to know.

[quinnten83]

Agreed. It's a bit ridiculous tbh.



This. Wasting yer time is pointless. Time = Money.



Almost all netbooks/notebooks and PCs ship with Windows. Instead of crying boo hoo and demanding a "Windows refund," suck it up and just throw Linux on there if that's what you want. Save time and hassle for both you and the company.

I disagree, this is about consumer choice.
I don't want to have a product on my laptop that binds me to a contract I don't agree with. Bundling only forces me to accept said product and contract. You should be given a choice at the time of purchase. Right now you lose your freedom and rights as a consumer and you aid in maintaining a monopoly. Not to mention that it makes the purchase more expensive, because you are paying for software and hardware.
Unless people start sending a clear signal to retailers that these conditions are undesirable they will keep bundling software with hardware. The thing that gets me the most is that it is clearly stated in the EULA that you should get a refund, but that retailers have no process in place to facilitate this. This is unacceptable.

I am glad that there is someone like the OP, who "harasses" the retailers, because that sends a message.

[Methuselah]

If the EULA says you CAN'T use it if you don't agree and you don't agree you should get a refund PERIOD.
But I do agree that it is far easer to return the whole machine that to get OEMs to refund you more than they paid to install windows (retail price).
Nontheless, if someone is willing to pursue this, more power to them!

[Giant Speck]

http://lxer.com/module/db/index.php?dbn=14

Click the above link for a list of vendors that sell computers with Linux distros preinstalled or no operating system installed.

[m4tic]

I don't want the airbag in my car, since i never use it i guess i'm entitled to a refund.

[blazemore]

The principle of the matter is that we are charged an extra fee for the Microsoft OS because so many people use it and that is the deal that Bill Gates set up with IBM years ago that he subsequently struck with all the other manufacturers. This sales strategy is what made him a billionaire and it him got him in trouble with the U.S. courts. The decision of that court proceding is what gives people the right to get the refund this thread is referring to. By denying the opportunity to receive this refund Microsoft would be in violation of the antitrust act that they were prosicuted for all those years ago.

Sums my thoughts up exactly. Microsoft feel they're "entitled" to a particular share of the PC market. Maybe if enough people do this, OEMs will sit up and listen.

[blazemore]

I don't want the airbag in my car, since i never use it i guess i'm entitled to a refund.
Tough, it's the law. You need an airbag, you don't need Windows.

[ade234uk]

Good on you. Users should be given the choice, Machine with Windows, or blank. If enough people do it, then it will actually start costing the company more money to process these refunds, so they might just might start bringing out as OS free machine.

However I think a lot of profit on these machines comes from having Windows installed, that's why there is no clear information on how much you should get refunded if you don't accept the agreement.

[blazemore]

Good on you. Users should be given the choice, Machine with Windows, or blank. If enough people do it, then it will actually start costing the company more money to process these refunds, so they might just might start bringing out as OS free machine.

However I think a lot of profit on these machines comes from having Windows installed, that's why there is no clear information on how much you should get refunded if you don't accept the agreement.

Well I will only accept two amount.
1. A full retail price of Windows XP Home SP3 £72.62 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Windows-Home-Service-Pack-English/dp/B0018RCADO)
2. Written proof that the amount they give me is the amount they paid for a license from Microsoft. They won't want to do that.

[Techsnap]

You know what, until the OEMs stop putting lackluster Linux distros on people are going to want Windows anyway because no matter what way you look at it, it's superior.

Acer Aspire one? Came with the Linpus Lite distro which wasn't functional at all and very VERY outdated. The XP AAOs next to it could run all the programs that you'd expect on the desktop within reason and have the most up to date versions of your software.

Also if you're STILL getting it cheaper than buying it with Linux I really don't know what there is to complain about. It's not a tax either, you had the choice to find a Linux system even if it was more expensive, it's not a tax though, look up the definition of tax.


A full retail price of Windows XP Home SP3 £72.62Nope OEMs do not pay anywhere near that price so it will not cost that much extra anyway for the Netbook to have Windows installed on. Also it's not going to be retail XP on there.

[Giant Speck]

Don't OEMs pay like $15 for XP nowadays, anyway?

[Grenage]

While I couldn't say for sure, I wouldn't be surprised if retailers paid $10-20 per license.

Hey look, my new graphics card came with a couple of free games; I wonder if Nvidia will refund me their full retail value....

[blazemore]

While I couldn't say for sure, I wouldn't be surprised if retailers paid $10-20 per license.

Hey look, my new graphics card came with a couple of free games; I wonder if Nvidia will refund me their full retail value....
They should, unless they want to disclose their OEM pricing.

[Techsnap]

Hey look, my new graphics card came with a couple of free games; I wonder if Nvidia will refund me their full retail value....Yep, they won't run on my Linux System, I wonder if ATi/nvidia will give me a refund because I don't want to pay EA Tax :P lol

[Zoot7]

Well I will only accept two amount.
1. A full retail price of Windows XP Home SP3 £72.62 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Windows-Home-Service-Pack-English/dp/B0018RCADO)
2. Written proof that the amount they give me is the amount they paid for a license from Microsoft. They won't want to do that.
There's no way you'll get either of those. You *may* (and that's a very big maybe) get a price similar to what the OEM themselves pay for the individual license, but there's no way in a million years that they'll automatically multiply the price by 3/4 and give you that.
Besides, the general word of mouth was that Microsoft were literally giving away XP to the OEMs, so I'd say you can forget about getting anything.

Whilst I agree that choice would be nice, and it certainly would be nice to have the ability to buy the machine without the OS. It's just far too much trouble to get a refund for the Windows license to bother trying IMO.

[blazemore]

There's precedent. Amazon gave some guy £40.

[Grenage]

It looks like it may (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2005/05/294.ars) have been between $15 and $35 on XP.


There's precedent. Amazon gave some guy £40.

Unfortunately precedent has little bearing on such refunds.

[Psykotik]

I can't believe what I'm reading; someone from the ubuntu staff claiming people should accept to buy windows preinstalled. Am I registered to the wrong forum? Is it a microsoft's propaganda one?

Say, antitrust rules are a reality. A legal reality. The EU used to fine Microsoft to comply to these rules. Why? Because Microsoft refused to offer a browser choice to their users. They forced their customers to use Internet Explorer.

Even if I don't agree with such decision (today, an OS is ALSO a browser), the rule extracted from this decision should be stronger when talking about the infamous hardware-OS link.

It is because some courageous people ask for their rights that rules are real. Don't talk about money or about time wasted: we're speaking about rights. We shouldn't be concerned about how much money it does cost fighting for our rights, but how much we are more free. Even though blazemore isn't get his money back, he's a freedom fighter; we should respect that... shouldn't we?

[suitedaces]

<snip>
the game
<snip>

Did I just lose the game?

The FOSS enthusiast in me congratulates OP, the accountant in me thinks it was a waste of time.

[Grenage]

Not everyone here is a fanatic, some people are a bit more grounded in practicality.

[Techsnap]

It is because some courageous people ask for their rights that rules are real. Don't talk about money or about time wasted: we're speaking about rights.Yep the OP had all the rights in the world to go and find a Netbook without Windows preinstalled. The netbook was bought with Windows as part of the package and that's the way it is. I don't like using car analogies but say I don't want the radio it comes with because I have my own what shall I do, phone Toyota and demand a refund for the included radio? It's not required to make the car run so it's an optional extra.

Anti-Trust and all that crap aside, as I said earlier, OEMs will choose Windows over Linux anyway because all of the preinstalled Linux offerings I have seen have been lackluster, Windows is superior to them.

[Psykotik]

Yep the OP had all the rights in the world to go and find a Netbook without Windows preinstalled. The netbook was bought with Windows as part of the package and that's the way it is. I don't like using car analogies but say I don't want the radio it comes with because I have my own what shall I do, phone Toyota and demand a refund for the included radio? It's not required to make the car run so it's an optional extra.

You're right, following car analogies is not the answer. You don't like Toyota? No issue here, go to buy a GM. Not happy with GM proposals ? Get a SMART. Or whatever else; you have THE CHOICE.


Anti-Trust and all that crap aside, as I said earlier, OEMs will choose Windows over Linux anyway because all of the preinstalled Linux offerings I have seen have been lackluster, Windows is superior to them.

Well, I remember some US anti-trust trials because Microsoft doesn't comply to rules. Because such big company change market rules taking every single oxygen molecule which would permit to have a competition breathing. That's why some politicians try to break Microsoft: it's unacceptable to see how this company has grown up.

We cannot accept on one hand free market and not accet on the other hand competition. We must refuse private monopoly: US and EU states refuse it. And you, a citizen, accept it? Can't believe what I read.

[Techsnap]

You're right, following car analogies is not the answer. You don't like Toyota? No issue here, go to buy a GM. Not happy with GM proposals ? Get a SMART. Or whatever else; you have THE CHOICE.

People have the choice to buy a different laptop with no OS installed. They're available.

[speedwell68]

Why would people even ask Amazon for the partial refund? Amazon isn't the manufacturer.

In the UK, when you buy a product, your contract exisits with the retailer and not the manufacurer. We have not paid the PC manufacturer or Microsoft, we have paid the retailer which in this case is Amazon. Also nowhere in the point of sale literature of any Windows based PC does it mention that you will have to agree to enter into another contractual agreement to use the computer, so if you don't agree to that secondary contract as a consumer you have a right to a refund, that is the law in the UK. If Amazon had added a piece in the point of sale literature that you would have to agree to a 3rd party EULA in order to use the software supplied, then the consumer would be deemed to have agreed to this at the time of sale and would not be entitled to a refund.

[Grenage]

That is correct, but since the license is part of the package, you'd usually send it all back or live with it.

[mikewhatever]

I don't want the airbag in my car, since i never use it i guess i'm entitled to a refund.


....
Hey look, my new graphics card came with a couple of free games; I wonder if Nvidia will refund me their full retail value....


...I don't like using car analogies but say I don't want the radio it comes with because I have my own what shall I do, phone Toyota and demand a refund for the included radio? It's not required to make the car run so it's an optional extra.


Did they have EULAa slapped on them stating you are entitled to a refund? If so, post the relevant part here and we'll see.
I am sorry the three of you just don't get it.

[Tristam Green]

I don't want the airbag in my car, since i never use it i guess i'm entitled to a refund.

More like, your iPod just came prepackaged with Foxconn components. Because Foxconn has a vast hold of market share on Apple componentry, and you don't feel they're entitled to it, you should be able to get a refund on that portion of the system because you don't want to use it.


Sums my thoughts up exactly. Microsoft feel they're "entitled" to a particular share of the PC market. Maybe if enough people do this, OEMs will sit up and listen.

They don't feel they're entitled to jack. They are doing business like any other company. They're priced competitively enough to corner the market.

OH NOES.


There's precedent. Amazon gave some guy £40.

There's precedent that says I can sue a coffee shop if their coffee burns me and the cup they pour it in doesn't say "CAUTION: THIS BEVERAGE IS FREAKING HOT". Doesn't mean it's smart.

[Grenage]

Did they have EULAa slapped on them stating you are entitled to a refund? If so, post the relevant part here and we'll see.

Obvious sarcasm aside, the EULA does say "where applicable". I think most people who don't have some axe to grind would view that as an option to return the whole lot, or not bother about it. The main reason people get these refunds is simply to shut them up.

[Tristam Green]

The main reason people get these refunds is simply to shut them up.

Doesn't work though :(

[jfl]

I can't believe what I'm reading; someone from the ubuntu staff claiming people should accept to buy windows preinstalled. Am I registered to the wrong forum? Is it a microsoft's propaganda one?

Say, antitrust rules are a reality. A legal reality. The EU used to fine Microsoft to comply to these rules. Why? Because Microsoft refused to offer a browser choice to their users. They forced their customers to use Internet Explorer.

Even if I don't agree with such decision (today, an OS is ALSO a browser), the rule extracted from this decision should be stronger when talking about the infamous hardware-OS link.

It is because some courageous people ask for their rights that rules are real. Don't talk about money or about time wasted: we're speaking about rights. We shouldn't be concerned about how much money it does cost fighting for our rights, but how much we are more free. Even though blazemore isn't get his money back, he's a freedom fighter; we should respect that... shouldn't we?

My thoughts exactly !!!
It is not a matter of money, it is a matter of principle !!!
You guys are on 2 different roads; one is practical-cost effective and the other one is fighting for a principles. These roads usually don't meet.

If you don't exercise your rights, you don't have any.

[JDShu]

My thoughts exactly !!!
It is not a matter of money, it is a matter of principle !!!
You guys are on 2 different roads; one is practical-cost effective and the other one is fighting for a principles. These roads usually don't meet.

If you don't exercise your rights, you don't have any.

What you usually do is achieve your ideals in the most practical way. In this case, its buying from companies that preinstall Linux.

[howlingmadhowie]

I don't want the airbag in my car, since i never use it i guess i'm entitled to a refund.

if it said explicitly in the documents you got with your car that you are allowed to return the airbag and get a refund for it, then yes. if it doesn't say that explicitly, then no.

[howlingmadhowie]

While I couldn't say for sure, I wouldn't be surprised if retailers paid $10-20 per license.

Hey look, my new graphics card came with a couple of free games; I wonder if Nvidia will refund me their full retail value....

If it says in the documentation you got with your graphics card "we promise to refund you the full retail value for the games you got bundled with the card if you don't want them" then yes. otherwise no.

[howlingmadhowie]

Not everyone here is a fanatic, some people are a bit more grounded in practicality.

no need to start name-calling.

some people consider standing up for their civic rights to be good.

[howlingmadhowie]

Yep the OP had all the rights in the world to go and find a Netbook without Windows preinstalled. The netbook was bought with Windows as part of the package and that's the way it is. I don't like using car analogies but say I don't want the radio it comes with because I have my own what shall I do, phone Toyota and demand a refund for the included radio? It's not required to make the car run so it's an optional extra.

Anti-Trust and all that crap aside, as I said earlier, OEMs will choose Windows over Linux anyway because all of the preinstalled Linux offerings I have seen have been lackluster, Windows is superior to them.

the difference being that nowhere in the documentation you get with a new Toyota does it say that you are entitled to return the radio and get a refund for it.

[Grenage]

If it says in the documentation you got with your graphics card "we promise to refund you the full retail value for the games you got bundled with the card if you don't want them" then yes. otherwise no.

It doesn't say that on the MS EULA, or in any computer literature received in a system bundle.


no need to start name-calling

I didn't.

I think I'll leave this topic as it is, trying to reason with people of this mindset is as productive as pounding my face into a cheese grater.

[MicrosoftFan]

Yeah some people are getting carried away here. Nowhere does MS say you're "entitled" to a refund on an OEM copy of Windows. They just suggest you should try to get one from the manufacturer.

For retail copies, they do offer a refund (http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/productrefund/refund.mspx) but not OEM versions.

Genuine question, where does it say OEMs are obligated to give a Windows refund?

[dmizer]

I don't like using car analogies but say I don't want the radio it comes with because I have my own what shall I do, phone Toyota and demand a refund for the included radio? It's not required to make the car run so it's an optional extra.

Actually for most new cars, the radio is an option. This means that you can order your car without a radio if you so desire, and the cost of the car will be discounted as a result.

[mikewhatever]

Yeah some people are getting carried away here. Nowhere does MS say you're "entitled" to a refund on an OEM copy of Windows. They just suggest you should try to get one from the manufacturer.

For retail copies, they do offer a refund (http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/productrefund/refund.mspx) but not OEM versions.

Genuine question, where does it say OEMs are obligated to give a Windows refund?


IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.

Clearly, the procedure is applicable as numerous refunds had been given to users in various countries by different vendors.

[speedwell68]

That is correct, but since the license is part of the package, you'd usually send it all back or live with it.

But the EULA says this...


YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.

So, what the debate with Amazon is whether or not a refund is applicable in this case. I got a refund as because the recovery software was missing the product was not of merchantable quality, therefore a refund was applicable. As Amazon does not stipulate an EULA at the point of purchase a refund is applicable, IMHO.

[MicrosoftFan]

Clearly, the procedure is applicable as numerous refunds had been given to users in various countries by different vendors.

LOL, just because a few manufactures give in to customers' whining and give a refund, that tranlates to some sort of legality?.

Now, I know for example that in France, Acer were ordered to give the refund, but that's was because Article L.122-1 of the French Consumer Code demands it.

But the OP is in the UK, so where's the UK law that applies?

[tjoff]

Genuine question, where does it say OEMs are obligated to give a Windows refund?

The EULAs for all Microsoft products can be found at their homepage:
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx

For an OEM version of Windows XP Home, I cite:

"This End-User License Agreement (“EULA”) is a legal agreement between you
(either an individual or a single legal entity) and the manufacturer ("Manufacturer") of the computer system or computer
system component (“HARDWARE”) with which you acquired the Microsoft software product(s) identified above (“SOFTWARE”)."
...
"By installing, copying, downloading, accessing or otherwise using the SOFTWARE, you agree to be bound by the terms of this EULA. If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, you may not use or copy the SOFTWARE, and you should promptly contact Manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused product(s) in accordance with Manufacturer’s return policies."

It is clear from this that:
1. It is a legal binding agreement between you and the manufacturer.
2. There is a clear distinction between HARDWARE and SOFTWARE, and the terms of the EULA does only concern the SOFTWARE, thus it is not "one package".
3. The wording "you should promptly contact Manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused product(s) in accordance with Manufacturer’s return policies" clearly states that the product (SOFTWARE) should be returned. Demanding the return of a product to the manufacturer will require a refund according to the legislation of most countries.

[Giant Speck]

Clearly, the procedure is applicable as numerous refunds had been given to users in various countries by different vendors.

Yes, but it greatly depends on the vendor's existing policies. That line in Windows' EULA does not require that vendors offer a full refund for the product if the consumer does not agree with the EULA or simply does not install and use it. A consumer can sure as hell attempt to obtain the full refund; however, the vendors are not legally subject to Windows' EULA and don't have to refund anything they sell that they don't want to.

[mikewhatever]

Yes, but it greatly depends on the vendor's existing policies. That line in Windows' EULA does not require that vendors offer a full refund for the product if the consumer does not agree with the EULA or simply does not install and use it. A consumer can sure as hell attempt to obtain the full refund; however, the vendors are not legally subject to Windows' EULA and don't have to refund anything they sell that they don't want to.

If that's the case, OEMs shouldn't be selling products with such licenses. They do, which strongly implies that they are bound by the EULA and possibly have an agreement with MS, covering the refunds.

Edit: I must say that tjoff had provided much better reasoning above. Thanks tjoff.

[phrostbyte]

I think I'll leave this topic as it is, trying to reason with people of this mindset is as productive as pounding my face into a cheese grater.

What do you want people to do? Not demand a refund? You don't have a right to get involved in other people's personal lives or decisions.

[MicrosoftFan]

3. The wording "you should promptly contact Manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused product(s) in accordance with Manufacturer’s return policies" clearly states that the product (SOFTWARE) should be returned. Demanding the return of a product to the manufacturer will require a refund according to the legislation of most countries.

They just say: you should return the product to the manufacturer and ask about a refund. There's no "demand" being made.

[Grenage]

What do you want people to do? Not demand a refund? You don't have a right to get involved in other people's personal lives or decisions.

I'd quite like people to exercise some common sense, but that's obviously asking a lot. If you don't want MS Windows, don't buy a computer that's advertising MS Windows as part of the deal.

[phrostbyte]

I'd quite like people to exercise some common sense, but that's obviously asking a lot. If you don't want MS Windows, don't buy a computer that's advertising MS Windows as part of the deal.

Or ask the OEM for a refund. Why are you so insulted by the fact that people are getting refunds for Windows?

[Grenage]

Or ask the OEM for a refund. Why are you so insulted by the fact that people are getting refunds for Windows?

I'm not, you sure do read a lot into a sentence.

[phrostbyte]

I'm not, you sure do read a lot into a sentence.

Well it looks like a bunch of people are attacking some random person as a "fanboy" on the Internet because he is receiving a refund for Windows. I guess you don't like getting checks in the mail for things you don't use. Sorry.

[Grenage]

Well it looks like a bunch of people are attacking some random person as a "fanboy" on the Internet because he is receiving a refund for Windows. I guess you don't like getting checks in the mail for things you don't use. Sorry.

Really? I haven't seen the word 'fanboy' used, and the OP hasn't received a refund.

[phrostbyte]

Really? I haven't seen the word 'fanboy' used, and the OP hasn't received a refund.

He said that he will. I don't know about "fanboy", but I've seen insults being leveled in his direction, and some of which came from you.

[Grenage]

He said that he will.

Well that makes all the difference. I plan on winning the lottery and scoring a ménage à trois with supermodels, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Christ, enough of this mindless drivel, and enough of this thread.

[phrostbyte]

Well that makes all the difference. I plan on winning the lottery and scoring a ménage à trois with supermodels, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Christ, enough of this mindless drivel, and enough of this thread.

So your purpose here is just to "nuh uh" the OP? Good bye anyway.

[mikewhatever]

I'd quite like people to exercise some common sense, but that's obviously asking a lot. If you don't want MS Windows, don't buy a computer that's advertising MS Windows as part of the deal.

In many parts of the world, your common sense would either leave users with no computers to buy, or with inferior and more expensive products. In case of the OP, he's simply following an EULA clause, which makes perfect sense to me.

[brawd]

Well I have to thank Blazemore for starting this thread. I haven't enjoyed such a saga in a long time. The paranoia on both sides is amazing.

Blazemore just wants a refund for an add-on he didn't want. Refunds on this have been given before. Seems reasonable to me.

I should imagine I've spent more time untangling the family MS machines than he probably has chasing his refund, that's why I changed them to Linux, and Ubuntu in particular. I don't have to untangle them, they just work properly now.

It's a bit ridiculous really. Every Wednesday evening I teach (for free) how to use computers and they are all windows machines. The first half hour is used running virus and spam checkers. I have to find lots of money for software because all 12 machines have to be the same, and that takes a lot of my time. Therefor I think the time spent chasing this refund will benefit people like me.

Way to go Blazemore!

regards,

brawd.

[fr1nkl3]

I can't believe what I'm reading; someone from the ubuntu staff claiming people should accept to buy windows preinstalled. Am I registered to the wrong forum? Is it a microsoft's propaganda one?

Say, antitrust rules are a reality. A legal reality. The EU used to fine Microsoft to comply to these rules. Why? Because Microsoft refused to offer a browser choice to their users. They forced their customers to use Internet Explorer.

Even if I don't agree with such decision (today, an OS is ALSO a browser), the rule extracted from this decision should be stronger when talking about the infamous hardware-OS link.

It is because some courageous people ask for their rights that rules are real. Don't talk about money or about time wasted: we're speaking about rights. We shouldn't be concerned about how much money it does cost fighting for our rights, but how much we are more free. Even though blazemore isn't get his money back, he's a freedom fighter; we should respect that... shouldn't we?

Props :D
btw, are you a lawyer or something?

[blazemore]

Hey OP here.
If anyone is, or knows a lawyer who might be able to shed some light on the legal situation, can they please post here?
If I don't get the refund, it seems to be a simple breach of contract, nothing more. If I took them to a small claims court they probably wouldn't show up, and I'd win by default.
I wouldn't settle, especially if they tried to make me sign a non-disclosure agreement.

[CharlesA]

I can't believe what I'm reading; someone from the ubuntu staff claiming people should accept to buy windows preinstalled. Am I registered to the wrong forum? Is it a microsoft's propaganda one?

Just becuz a person is a staff member doesn't mean that they cannot share their opinions.

People will get fired up about just about anything it seems.

It's just plain easier to do yer research and find a netbook/laptop/whatever that has Windows preinstalled, wipe the drive and install Linux on it then to buy a netbook with Windows and bitch and moan at the manufacturer or the retailer for a refund.

Either that or get one that has no OS or comes with Linux preinstalled.

There is always a choice.

[phrostbyte]

Well if you are a Microsoft apologist, this is probably the best forum on the Internet to hang out in.

[rotwang888]

Hey OP here.
If anyone is, or knows a lawyer who might be able to shed some light on the legal situation, can they please post here?
If I don't get the refund, it seems to be a simple breach of contract, nothing more. If I took them to a small claims court they probably wouldn't show up, and I'd win by default.
I wouldn't settle, especially if they tried to make me sign a non-disclosure agreement.

Well, I'm not a lawyer, but from what I've read about people going to small claims on these cases it just comes down to the amount of the refund. You have video of you refusing the EULA. The judge will want to know the market value of a copy of Windows. The manufacturer will not reveal what they paid, so you should bring in a few electronics store ads, print out the price on newegg.com. etc. Best of luck!

[mamamia88]

serioulsy the cost of a lawyer will probably be more than the refund

[rotwang888]

Small claims court. No lawyer, just a few bucks to file.

[AllRadioisDead]

I hope this is a joke, this is the biggest waste of time for the $20 most people will get back. If you don't want windows on your laptop, buy a laptop without windows on it, it's that simple. This is ridiculous, I actually pitty microsoft for having to put up with garbage like this.

[mickie.kext]

Hey OP here.
If anyone is, or knows a lawyer who might be able to shed some light on the legal situation, can they please post here?
If I don't get the refund, it seems to be a simple breach of contract, nothing more. If I took them to a small claims court they probably wouldn't show up, and I'd win by default.
I wouldn't settle, especially if they tried to make me sign a non-disclosure agreement.
That't the spirit! Sue Microsoft's pants off! Class action them to oblivion! I do not know any lawyer though, and I am not in US so probably even if I know a lawyer, laws would not be compatible.

Maybe call SFLC?:D

[mikewhatever]

Small claims court. No lawyer, just a few bucks to file.

I guess it wouldn't hurt adding court expenses to the refund.


I hope this is a joke, this is the biggest waste of time for the $20 most people will get back. If you don't want windows on your laptop, buy a laptop without windows on it, it's that simple. This is ridiculous, I actually pitty microsoft for having to put up with garbage like this.

Stuff like this keeps me wondering, why some people like being screwed and brag about it with appalling confidence. Send Microsoft a consolation check to make yourself feel better.

[mickie.kext]

If everyone would exercise his right on refund, OEM would take a hint and realize how dumb "I will tell you same thing like I told 50 customers today: There is no demand for Linux computers" actually sounds, and they would stop muscling Windows on every machine just to please Microsfof. And as a +, Microsoft would probably go in death spiral... So I am absolutely supporting the OP!

[LowSky]

If everyone would exercise his right on refund, OEM would take a hint and realize how dumb "I will tell you same thing like I told 50 customers today: There is no demand for Linux computers" actually sounds, and they would stop muscling Windows on every machine just to please Microsfof. And as a +, Microsoft would probably go in death spiral... So I am absolutely supporting the OP!

I guess you don't get that most Linux users use both Linux and Windows. Most of the community is this way. I'm sorry but like I posted much earlier going after a trivial few dollars when you should have just purchased a stripped (or Linux pre-installed) laptop in the first place is your own issue, not to mention is it even worth your time. I get what the MS EULA says but you essentially get Windows for nothing when you buy a new computer from a company like Dell, Acer, HP, Samsung, Lenovo, and etc... because of the trial-ware software they thrown onto them.

[mickie.kext]

But Microsoft gets money. That has to stop, or they will one day buy linux by hiring away all devs or something... so I will not have what to use.

And other who like to use windows, just pirate it. It is more ethical than giving M$ your money -haha.:popcorn:

[samalex]

Seems to me that the OP just wants to try and prove a point. I agree with the purpose of this argument, but it's nothing new. In 1999 the Silicon Valley LUG staged a Windows Refund Day (http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/) demonstration at Microsoft and tried to get refunds, but nothing productive came of it. This demonstration had ESR, Chris DiBona, and other well known hackers in the Linux community, and it did very little to change policy or bring notice to this problem.

Yes, I agree with you it is a breach of contract. Yes, I do believe you are entitled to the refund. I do however think this is one of those screwed-up things that just 'is' and unfortunately there's no good process to get past it. Microsoft knows about it, as do the higher-ups at pretty much all hardware manufacturers. But the minimum wage worker you talk to at Samgsung's call center will have nothing related to this scenario in their scripts, and I bet their supervisors won't either.

An argument could be that if more people complained and called there would be more recognition that this is a legitimate problem. But I also think the vendors know if they cave for a few and set a president then they'll be obliged to do it for everyone which causes them a loss of revenue. They won't let that happen... though they may cave in a few instances as they did to the person who wrote the blog you followed.

If you get a refund then kudos, but if not then give some gripes on the blogosphere and move on... you're not the only one who's paid the Microsoft tax.

Just my opinion, nothing more nothing less...

Sam

[thatguruguy]

Small claims court. No lawyer, just a few bucks to file.

In the district where I am, it's $35.00 plus another $10.00 for service by certified and registered mail.

In order to get a $20.00 refund.

Good luck!

[AllRadioisDead]

Stuff like this keeps me wondering, why some people like being screwed and brag about it with appalling confidence. Send Microsoft a consolation check to make yourself feel better.
Why would I do that? I made the smart choice, and bought my computer without windows since I would not be using windows, instead of wasting weeks of my life trying to get a $20 refund.

[blazemore]

Seems to me that the OP just wants to try and prove a point. I agree with the purpose of this argument, but it's nothing new. In 1999 the Silicon Valley LUG staged a Windows Refund Day (http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/) demonstration at Microsoft and tried to get refunds, but nothing productive came of it. This demonstration had ESR, Chris DiBona, and other well known hackers in the Linux community, and it did very little to change policy or bring notice to this problem.

Yes, I agree with you it is a breach of contract. Yes, I do believe you are entitled to the refund. I do however think this is one of those screwed-up things that just 'is' and unfortunately there's no good process to get past it. Microsoft knows about it, as do the higher-ups at pretty much all hardware manufacturers. But the minimum wage worker you talk to at Samgsung's call center will have nothing related to this scenario in their scripts, and I bet their supervisors won't either.

An argument could be that if more people complained and called there would be more recognition that this is a legitimate problem. But I also think the vendors know if they cave for a few and set a president then they'll be obliged to do it for everyone which causes them a loss of revenue. They won't let that happen... though they may cave in a few instances as they did to the person who wrote the blog you followed.

If you get a refund then kudos, but if not then give some gripes on the blogosphere and move on... you're not the only one who's paid the Microsoft tax.

Just my opinion, nothing more nothing less...

Sam

I know I'm not the only one. It's partly that reason why I'm posting my stories here, because the more people who get it, the more OEMs will sit up and take notice.

On a slightly unrelated note, are Dell going to offer Lucid hardware?

[mickie.kext]

Dell prenistalls every LTS on some of the crappiest computers they sell. They actually fight hard not to sell Linux PCs they are offering, always writing with all caps "THIS DO NOT SUPPORT MICROSOFT".

[blazemore]

Dell prenistalls every LTS on some of the crappiest computers they sell. They actually fight hard not to sell Linux PCs they are offering, always writing with all caps "THIS DO NOT SUPPORT MICROSOFT".
So why do they do it at all? I think that (the stuff in caps) is just to lower the return rate.

[Georgesl]

So why do they do it at all? I think that (the stuff in caps) is just to lower the return rate.

Yep, and it doesn't always work:

http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9667184

After a long and frustrating search to merely *find* the Ubuntu section of the Dell website, I'm amazed that this apparently technically unsophisticated lady managed to somehow order an Ubuntu laptop by accident! #-o

The underlying problem is that the vast majority of consumers now consider a computer to be an appliance and few would buy a computer without an OS. The fewer OSs to be supported, the easier it is for manufacturers, so they will discourage sales of more than one operating system. While M$ and the manufacturers avoid trust problems by putting weasel language into the EULA they really have no intention of following that language. Legal agreements apply only to those who don't have lawyers on staff. Same goes for selling alternative OSs. It gives the manufactuer the ability to say "look, we're giving customers a choice!" but they make it as cumbersome as possible to make the alternative choice!

[Frak]

Or ask the OEM for a refund. Why are you so insulted by the fact that people are getting refunds for Windows?
He's, as I am, a bit uneasy of people buying computer, obviously with Windows, and then asking for a refund. It's not that they're wanting the refund, it's that they went out of their way to set-up a situation to get a refund, instead of avoiding everything in the first place by going with a white computer or a Linux-preinstall computer.

[Frak]

In the district where I am, it's $35.00 plus another $10.00 for service by certified and registered mail.

In order to get a $20.00 refund.

Good luck!
Ours is $50.00. Not worth it.

[fr1nkl3]

All I have to say is that freedom is not free, you have to fight for it.
Too often we learn this the hard way, when its too late.

[quinnten83]

I don't want the airbag in my car, since i never use it i guess i'm entitled to a refund.

That is a completely ridiculous comparison.
The airbag is there in case an accident happens. It's a necessary part of the car to ensure your security.
Windows is not a necessary part of the computer to ensure proper functioning of your computer. That is the reason you can get a refund according to their EULA. Also if I am willing to live with less functionality it is my freaking choice; a choice made possible by their EULA. If I clicked yes and did something the EULA didn't permit, then they would be on my @SS like flies on manure, yet the other way around they make it difficult for me to get my money back.

I really shouldn't be this difficult. And I don't care who's fault it is. There should be a system for easy refund in place whether in conjunction with retailers or not, especially since it is mandated by law. Maybe they should have a class action suit thrown at them.

[quinnten83]

Not everyone here is a fanatic, some people are a bit more grounded in practicality.

being grounded never moved anybody forward.
You can use Linux today because of people who decided not to ground themselves...

[a2z]

It's more the principle of the thing.

5*`s for princible. But I'd have to agree. Is it worth the hassle for a few bucks?

a2z

[quinnten83]

Y I don't like using car analogies but say I don't want the radio it comes with because I have my own what shall I do, phone Toyota and demand a refund for the included radio? It's not required to make the car run so it's an optional extra.



When buying a car I get a choice of which radio I want in it. That is not so with computers. These laptops are NOT a total package. They just get packaged together. If MS wanted to make sure people didn't remove Windows from the computers, they should market their product as an integrated package, like apple does. They don't do that, then they offer the opportunity to get my money back and then make virtually impossible to get my money. I just don't feel that as a consumer I need to be treated this way. Actually this is false advertisement, you advertise a service, which actually is not a service at all.

[Ceiber Boy]

While I see where people are coming from, I don't personally buy into the whole OS refund. Laptop dealers always say if the machine comes with XP/Vista/7, and all of MS' EULA are available online. The retailers are kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Am I the only person who feels that these refunds are only ever perused by Linux zealots actively looking for something to bitch about?


Yes you Are!

[quinnten83]

If everyone would exercise his right on refund, OEM would take a hint and realize how dumb "I will tell you same thing like I told 50 customers today: There is no demand for Linux computers" actually sounds, and they would stop muscling Windows on every machine just to please Microsfof. And as a +, Microsoft would probably go in death spiral... So I am absolutely supporting the OP!

I don't need MS to die. I happen to like some of their products.
I just want my rights as a consumer respected.
I can run other software on a specific machine that's in the store (and I later bought). It's not sold as a bundled entity, but out of convenience it is already prepackaged with an OS. They don't offer me a choice to buy that specific machine, without an OS. But they tell me, hey you don't use the software, send it back, get your money back. When I try to send it back, they become difficult.
It just gets me mad that
a) They don't give me a choice when I buy the damn machine.
b) The EULA is not known before I start the machine, because the
retailers don't advertise it.
c) I have to jump through hoops to prove I didn't make use of the
software.
d) They make it difficult to get my money back, even though it says in
our agreement they will.

I happen to know that in Belgium bundling is illegal. People still install MS like crazy, but at least you get a choice.

[Dayofswords]

most computers come with windows, its harder to find a computer in a electronic store with linux on the model you want than it is to find a keyboard without a spacebar, so you buy the one with windows and get some money back for the part you don't want. for a good 99% of people, building a computer themselves is not an option.

the problem is that OEM and resellers and Microsoft bounce back and forth on who pays it.

i don't think people go out to get a computer on purpose to just get that refund from someone, its just that they dont want it and they are entitled to a refund according to the agreement.

i say its worth the hassle(unless you get fees that outweigh the refund) so some makers get the idea that not everyone wants windows. Or at least offer computers that are blank or have a OS choice when buying. perhaps clean up the process of obtaining a refund that people are legally entitled to get.

Microsoft has done well as a business but OEM need to understand there is more than windows out there that people may want.

i say good luck on that refund, but try not to make a crusade over it :).

[rottentree]

Yeah this isn't about free software idealism but rather that some companies think that the law doesn't apply to them if they are prick enough and if people just give in to them then they will continue to do so.

I hope the OP gets his refund.

[blazemore]

http://james7hall.wordpress.com/2010/01/15/77-99-microsoft-tax-refund-from-amazon-uk/
How come this guy gets a refund from Amazon but I get palmed off to Samsung?
I'm going back on the phone to Amazon; this is outrageous!

[MicrosoftFan]

Don't worry mate, you know you're in the right, so you're in control eh?

Maybe Amazon have had a few too many people reading blogs and getting ideas, so they've decided they can't afford to be so generous any more. Or maybe those people that got refunds had been good very customers to them in the past and they felt they needed to make sure they keep them.

[blazemore]

Don't worry mate, you know you're in the right, so you're in control eh?

Maybe Amazon have had a few too many people reading blogs and getting ideas, so they've decided they can't afford to be so generous any more. Or maybe those people that got refunds had been good very customers to them in the past and they felt they needed to make sure they keep them.

That would be me then; I always buy my stuff from Amazon.

[mikewhatever]

http://james7hall.wordpress.com/2010/01/15/77-99-microsoft-tax-refund-from-amazon-uk/
How come this guy gets a refund from Amazon but I get palmed off to Samsung?
I'm going back on the phone to Amazon; this is outrageous!

Wow! 78 BPS, that's a lot! It's 20% if the initial cost of the computer, to be precise. And for what, a stupid Vista you'd never use? That guy is a genius.

[blazemore]

I imagine it will be less for XP though.

[mikewhatever]

I imagine it will be less for XP though.

You are right. I'd be more then happy to get 40 BPS for XP.

[Frak]

You are right. I'd be more then happy to get 40 BPS for XP.
You'll get 10...



Maybe.

[Techsnap]

Maybe Amazon have had a few too many people reading blogs and getting ideas, so they've decided they can't afford to be so generous any more. Or maybe those people that got refunds had been good very customers to them in the past and they felt they needed to make sure they keep them.

Maybe Amazon realised how pathetic some Linux Zealots are.

[Frak]

maybe amazon realised how pathetic some linux zealots are.
+1

[mickie.kext]

Q: Who bashes Linux and insults people who not want to bow to Microsoft?

A: Few annoying linsux.org activists, same group every time!

[Techsnap]

I use Linux you know. I don't bash Linux (Exception Ubuntu & Arch) nearly as much as the community of people think they're paying "M$ tax". Anyway as I usually say, enough with the inter-site wars, this is Ubuntu Forums.

[Frak]

Q: Who bashes people who do idiotic things in order to make themselves look cooler on a forum full of anonymous people?

A: Few annoying linsux.org activists, same group every time!

That's right.

[Queue29]

That's right.

With threads like this, how can we keep silent?

[mickie.kext]

That's right.

Do not put words in my mouth! I reported you for calling people idiots and doing that in my name.

[Elfy]

Calm down please - keep the linsux comments to yourselves please.

[NoaHall]

Do not put words in my mouth! I reported you for calling people idiots and doing that in my name.

Relax, it's just the internet.

[Icehuck]

Relax, it's just the internet.

How can I relax? Someone is WRONG (http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png) on the Internet!

[Frak]

How can I relax? Someone is WRONG on the Internet!
Haha: http://www.xkcd.com/386/

[mickie.kext]

Relax, it's just the internet.

Insulting me personally is one thing, while is not nice, I can relax and ignore that. But insulting other people (the OP in this case) in a way that looks like I did it, that is over the line.[-X

[cptrohn]

I am not going to go through the whole 17 pages of this thread... but if you want a netbook without Windows installed Newegg is selling 2 models from OCZ and Zotac respectively.... I bought the Zotac Sam102 a couple of months ago and got it for $150 (with rebate)

Threw in a 2GB ramstick and an old 160 GB HD I had laying around and put UNR on it and it's been great....It only came with a 3 cell battery, but I contacted Zotac and I can get a 6cell for another $50. I love it and think it's been a great little machine, and Don't have to deal with M$ or an installed OS I didn't want to pay for.

[Icehuck]

I am not going to go through the whole 17 pages of this thread... but if you want a netbook without Windows installed Newegg is selling 2 models from OCZ and Zotac respectively.... I bought the Zotac Sam102 a couple of months ago and got it for $150 (with rebate)

Threw in a 2GB ramstick and an old 160 GB HD I had laying around and put UNR on it and it's been great....It only came with a 3 cell battery, but I contacted Zotac and I can get a 6cell for another $50. I love it and think it's been a great little machine, and Don't have to deal with M$ or an installed OS I didn't want to pay for.

I went and got a Dell Mini 9 off of Dell Outlet and got it preloaded with Ubuntu. It might have been a refurb but I didn't get a machine with an OS I didn't want. It's crazy that I can buy a machine with what I want and not complain about buying it with stuff I didn't want.

[Frak]

I'd like to get a fully working netbook with Haiku on it. That would be AWESOME.

[Techsnap]

Icehuck, you should have complained and got a refund for the time they paid their team (hence including with the price of the netbook) to install that OS. ¢anoni¢al eh?

[cptrohn]

I went and got a Dell Mini 9 off of Dell Outlet and got it preloaded with Ubuntu. It might have been a refurb but I didn't get a machine with an OS I didn't want. It's crazy that I can buy a machine with what I want and not complain about buying it with stuff I didn't want.

True, I also found a few Ebay stores that sell netbooks with no OS too, (I think they might be refurbs as well)

I think my next project is going to be the OCZ 17" gaming barebones laptop.. Still looking into it though.... I was thinking of waiting until they supported the Icore7 mobile Quad though.

If people research a little bit they can find netbooks/notebooks that are barebones as well.

I'd rather do that than jump through hoops trying to get a windows refund myself. (plus I can configure it how I want it as well)

[Techsnap]

Yep, the OS less versions are usually available in most cases. If they are more expensive then just buy it with Windows, then you have a "free" spare OS. I know it's not free literally but it's still cheaper.

[blazemore]

(OP)
The stupid thing is, if I wanted to put a Microsoft operating system on my lovely netbook, I'd use my MSDN Academic Alliance! I get all that kind of stuff for free.

[Icehuck]

(OP)
The stupid thing is, if I wanted to put a Microsoft operating system on my lovely netbook, I'd use my MSDN Academic Alliance! I get all that kind of stuff for free.

The real question I have is, why did you buy a machine you knew came with Windows? Then claim to only notice it after turning the machine on and reading the EULA? It just seems you had an agenda and are just trying to prove you can get a refund.

You have been on this site since 2007 and I'm pretty sure the you've seen the complaints about the Windows EULA. I can pretty much rule out you having no clue about Windows licensing since you linked the Microsoft Tax article to Amazon. I can only see this thread as, "I'm fighting Microsoft, look at me, look at me!"

[Frak]

The real question I have is, why did you buy a machine you knew came with Windows? Then claim to only notice it after turning the machine on and reading the EULA? It just seems you had an agenda and are just trying to prove you can get a refund.

You have been on this site since 2007 and I'm pretty sure the you've seen the complaints about the Windows EULA. I can pretty much rule out you having no clue about Windows licensing since you linked the Microsoft Tax article to Amazon. I can only see this thread as, "I'm fighting Microsoft, look at me, look at me!"
I wholeheartedly agree. This looks like a campaign to look like a hero, instigated by a purchase of a product with features and software included that fit your plan.

[blazemore]

Not at all.
Of course I knew the netbook came with Windows, and I knew I'd have an uphill battle to get my money back for it.
But I wanted this particular netbook, and I'd recommend it strongly. It's only weak point is that the screen doesn't fold back far enough.

Really though, I already knew the wording of the license agreement, and I bought the netbook knowing full well I didn't agree to it.

However "officially" you are supposed to read the license on the machine, and make a decision there and then whether or not you should accept it.

[mikewhatever]

Yep, the OS less versions are usually available in most cases. If they are more expensive then just buy it with Windows, then you have a "free" spare OS. I know it's not free literally but it's still cheaper.

Or better still, buy it with Windows and get a refund. ;)
I know what you think, and yet:
- you get the cheapest deal
- still get the model you want
- send a message to OEMs.

[aysiu]

Or better still, buy it with Windows and get a refund. ;)
I know what you think, and yet:
- you get the cheapest deal
- still get the model you want
- send a message to OEMs.
Sounds great in theory, but there are three major problems with that:

1. It's a lot of work to obtain a Windows license refund

2. More importantly, there is no guarantee that putting in all that work will get you the refund

3. Since the OEMs, third-party vendors, and Microsoft do not have to make it easy to get a refund, it's highly unlikely enough people would get refunds to really send any kind of message except "Some Linux users are really annoying" or, worse yet, "Some Windows pirates will say anything not to pay to get Windows, even lie about using Linux"

I get it. You live in Israel. You have no other choice. I fully support you trying to get a refund. The OP lives in the UK. There are Linux preinstalled options there. If people in the UK, the US, and other countries that do have Linux preinstalled options want to send a message to OEMs, they should put their money where their mouth is and buy Linux preinstalled.

[CharlesA]

Sounds great in theory, but there are three major problems with that:

1. It's a lot of work to obtain a Windows license refund

2. More importantly, there is no guarantee that putting in all that work will get you the refund

3. Since the OEMs, third-party vendors, and Microsoft do not have to make it easy to get a refund, it's highly unlikely enough people would get refunds to really send any kind of message except "Some Linux users are really annoying" or, worse yet, "Some Windows pirates will say anything not to pay to get Windows, even lie about using Linux"

I get it. You live in Israel. You have no other choice. I fully support you trying to get a refund. The OP lives in UK. There are Linux preinstalled options there. If people in the UK, the US, and other countries that do have Linux preinstalled options want to send a message to OEMs, they should put their money where their mouth is and buy Linux preinstalled.

This. 100%.

[Frak]

Sounds great in theory, but there are three major problems with that:

1. It's a lot of work to obtain a Windows license refund

2. More importantly, there is no guarantee that putting in all that work will get you the refund

3. Since the OEMs, third-party vendors, and Microsoft do not have to make it easy to get a refund, it's highly unlikely enough people would get refunds to really send any kind of message except "Some Linux users are really annoying" or, worse yet, "Some Windows pirates will say anything not to pay to get Windows, even lie about using Linux"

I get it. You live in Israel. You have no other choice. I fully support you trying to get a refund. The OP lives in UK. There are Linux preinstalled options there. If people in the UK, the US, and other countries that do have Linux preinstalled options want to send a message to OEMs, they should put their money where their mouth is and buy Linux preinstalled.


This. 100%.

Also, this. 100%.

[blazemore]

...there is no guarantee that putting in all that work will get you the refund...

Yes there is, it says so in the EULA. If they don't give me a refund I'll just serve them :P

[Frak]

Yes there is, it says so in the EULA. If they don't give me a refund I'll just serve them :P
I'll correct aysiu, even though he was correct, you technically are too:

There's no guarantee that you'll get a refund within your lifetime. They don't have to get it to you immediately, they just have to get it to you. There's no timescale placed on that.

[Techsnap]

Yes there is, it says so in the EULA. If they don't give me a refund I'll just serve them :P

Hmm.


YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.

[blazemore]

Hmm.

Luckily, it is applicable in the UK.

[MicrosoftFan]

Luckily, it is applicable in the UK.

Why's that?

[blazemore]

Okay I've written to Consumer Direct, who deal with consumer protection in the UK.
Here's what I said:


I purchased a computer manufactured by Samsung from Amazon.co.uk

Upon turning the computer on, I read the End User License Agreement for the "Microsoft Windows XP" software which had been bundled with the computer.

I do not agree to the license. I do not want the software. Crucially, there was no way of purchasing the computer without the software.

I wish to obtain a refund for the Microsoft Windows XP Software, and keep the hardware (the laptop), under the terms laid out in the license agreement for Windows XP.

I have installed equivalent replacement software (Linux) on the computer, and have never used the software that was bundled (Windows XP).

I have contacted Amazon who will not give me a refund, even though they have given refunds before in the same circumstances.

Amazon (the retailer) told me to contact Samsung (the manufacturer) who have not reasonably responded to my requests for a refund.

I would like your advice on exactly what section of consumer protection law entitles me to a refund, as I may wish to take this matter to a small claims court.

I appreciate your help.

[Frak]

Luckily, it is applicable in the UK.
It isn't talking about location. If the amount is less than or equal to $20/£20 (in many districts), you cannot fight it in small claims court. Since many OEM's do actually get it for $20/£20 or less, they don't even have to ship you a refund if the fees associated with it outweigh the returned amount.

[schauerlich]

Cool crusade bro.

[blazemore]

It isn't talking about location. If the amount is less than or equal to $20/£20 (in many districts), you cannot fight it in small claims court. Since many OEM's do actually get it for $20/£20 or less, they don't even have to ship you a refund if the fees associated with it outweigh the returned amount.

Right, but I'm going to take them to court for retail, unless they can prove Microsoft sold them the license for the amount they'll want to give me.

[baddog144]

To me, this thread should be titled "I'm wasting a lot of time in order to get x amount of money"

To be honest, I don't think you're entitled to a refund. You bought the computer knowing it came with Windows. If you don't want that, don't buy it. Seriously, as has been said, you can get computers pre-installed with Linux, or with no OS at all. If you care so much, buy one of those instead of wasting your time with this.

[phrostbyte]

Wow! 78 BPS, that's a lot! It's 20% if the initial cost of the computer, to be precise. And for what, a stupid Vista you'd never use? That guy is a genius.

There was a guy who posted here once who get his entirely computer purchase refunded, and still got to keep the computer. =P~

[blazemore]

There was a guy who posted here once who get his entirely computer purchase refunded, and still got to keep the computer. =P~

Where!?

[RiceMonster]

Cool crusade bro.

I lol'd

[phrostbyte]

Sounds great in theory, but there are three major problems with that:

1. It's a lot of work to obtain a Windows license refund

2. More importantly, there is no guarantee that putting in all that work will get you the refund

3. Since the OEMs, third-party vendors, and Microsoft do not have to make it easy to get a refund, it's highly unlikely enough people would get refunds to really send any kind of message except "Some Linux users are really annoying" or, worse yet, "Some Windows pirates will say anything not to pay to get Windows, even lie about using Linux"

I get it. You live in Israel. You have no other choice. I fully support you trying to get a refund. The OP lives in the UK. There are Linux preinstalled options there. If people in the UK, the US, and other countries that do have Linux preinstalled options want to send a message to OEMs, they should put their money where their mouth is and buy Linux preinstalled.

What we really need is a class-action lawsuit. California had a similar one in 2001, which they won. Then Linux users will be able to file for a refund enmasse without any hassle.

[Frak]

Right, but I'm going to take them to court for retail, unless they can prove Microsoft sold them the license for the amount they'll want to give me.
Because the cost of OEM is private to the company and Microsoft, the court will silently request the amount of the installation. If it's under the limit, they'll tell you that it is not able to be fought in court.

[Gadgetech]

OEM Windows doesn't cost much for most companies. They subsidize the cost of the OS by collecting fees to pre-install crapware with 60-90 day trial licenses. So it ends up a zero sum game.

[mikewhatever]

To me, this thread should be titled "I'm wasting a lot of time in order to get x amount of money"

To be honest, I don't think you're entitled to a refund. You bought the computer knowing it came with Windows. If you don't want that, don't buy it. Seriously, as has been said, you can get computers pre-installed with Linux, or with no OS at all. If you care so much, buy one of those instead of wasting your time with this.

I see what you are saying, and it would have been relevant, if the EULA had a clause saying "Should you know in advance the computer comes with Windows, you are not entitled to a refund". You seem to have invented a binary rule, 'buy with Linux or buy with Windows', and keep trying to force it on others. Don't you think both the rule and the forcing are fundamentally wrong?

[phrostbyte]

Where!?

I'm trying to find it, but no luck. What's interesting is this guy claimed he wasn't even a Linux user, he just had so many copies of Windows he didn't want to keep paying for it. And somehow the OEM refunded the ENTIRE cost of his computer after a few hours of nagging. :D If I find it somehow I will be sure to let you know.

[Dayofswords]

(OP)
The stupid thing is, if I wanted to put a Microsoft operating system on my lovely netbook, I'd use my MSDN Academic Alliance! I get all that kind of stuff for free.
its kinda cool huh

[phrostbyte]

I see what you are saying, and it would have been relevant, if the EULA had a clause saying "Should you know in advance the computer comes with Windows, you are not entitled to a refund". You seem to have invented a binary rule, 'buy with Linux or buy with Windows', and keep trying to force it on others. Don't you think both the rule and the forcing are fundamentally wrong?

When you see the common theme: "life is about stability, you should not go against the man". I think you are seeing something that I've studied academically in the past. There is some kind of latent subservience morality deep within much of Western Culture. I believe it is a remnant of the Middle Ages serfdom but still an aspect of many ethnic group latent culture ideals, or even genetic caused by centuries of systematic oppression of rebellious individuals (ie, the rebellious were killed, while the subservient where allowed to breed- this artificial selection applied to humans much like it is applied to livestock). I say this because ethnic groups which do not have a history of collective peasantry rarely possess this viewpoint, and don't have any qualms about "going against the man" for their personal benefit or even to prove a point.

[Dayofswords]

When you see the common theme: "life is about stability, you should not go against the man". I think you are seeing something that I've studied academically in the past. There is some kind of latent subservience morality deep within much of Western Culture. I believe it is a remnant of the Middle Ages serfdom but still an aspect of many ethnic group latent culture ideals. I say this because ethnic groups which do not have a history of collective peasantry rarely possess this viewpoint, and don't have any qualms about "going against the man" for their personal benefit or even to prove a point.

i'm sorry but... what?

i dont even know if that applies to computers.. i think
and i didnt see any ethnic groups come up before this

[Frak]

When you see the common theme: "life is about stability, you should not go against the man". I think you are seeing something that I've studied academically in the past. There is some kind of latent subservience morality deep within much of Western Culture. I believe it is a remnant of the Middle Ages serfdom but still an aspect of many ethnic group latent culture ideals, or even genetic caused by centuries of system oppression of rebellion (ie, the rebellious were killed, while the subservient where allowed to breed- artificial selection). I say this because ethnic groups which do not have a history of collective peasantry rarely possess this viewpoint, and don't have any qualms about "going against the man" for their personal benefit or even to prove a point.
Well, I mainly grew up in the south, where it was widely told "If you are deliberately setting yourself up for a fight, you are a fool."

I was told that a lot when I would get in fights with larger kids then me in school. There was no point in fighting them, I didn't have to. I wanted to prove a point that they shouldn't be so aggressive, but in the end, I was the fool for putting myself in a situation I could have avoided.

[phrostbyte]

Well, I mainly grew up in the south, where it was widely told "If you are deliberately setting yourself up for a fight, you are a fool."

I was told that a lot when I would get in fights with larger kids then me in school. There was no point in fighting them, I didn't have to. I wanted to prove a point that they shouldn't be so aggressive, but in the end, I was the fool for putting myself in a situation I could have avoided.

This isn't the jungle. You can make people subservient to you without ever lifting a finger. Where I grew up, it was widely told that "The pen is mightier then the sword". "If you are deliberately setting yourself up for a fight, you are a fool." is exactly the kind of subservient philosophy I was talking about. "Live free or die trying", is a better philosophy to live to, IMO. :)

[Frak]

This isn't the jungle. You can make people subservient to you without ever lifting a finger. Where I grew up, it was widely told that "The pen is mightier then the sword". "If you are deliberately setting yourself up for a fight, you are a fool." is exactly the kind of subservient philosophy I was talking about. "Live free or die trying", is a better philosophy to live to, IMO. :)
And where I grew up:

"Those Yankee's come here and think they're all high and mighty with their high position and lawyers, never shut up about their estates, and we usually find them messin' around with Slim."

[phrostbyte]

i'm sorry but... what?

i dont even know if that applies to computers.. i think
and i didnt see any ethnic groups come up before this

Well in any subjective debate, you aren't going to reach a consensus because humanity is not a hive mind. So by simply understanding this fact, it's worth to understand where the subjective viewpoints originate from. If you are like me and you have a goal of radically changing the world, you can not simply accomplish this by debating with people who are contrary to your goals. I think that's a better way to counter it is to counter it's source. This source I am led to believe, is a complex set of religious, cultural, and biological factors which ultimately come together to create a difference in opinion between two people. By being to able to identify and attacking this source directly, you can naturally adjust the number of opponents to nil.

The reason I'm saying this, is for people who like me, want to radically change the world (and hopefully for the better).

[Dayofswords]

Well in any subjective debate, you aren't going to reach a consensus because humanity is not a hive mind. So by simply understanding this fact, it's worth to understand where the subjective viewpoints originate from. If you are like me and you have a goal of radically changing the world, you can not simply accomplish this by debating with people who are contrary to your goals. I think that's a better way to counter it is to counter it's source. This source I am led to believe, is a complex set of religious, cultural, and biological factors which ultimately come together to create a difference in opinion between two people. By being to able to identify and attacking this source directly, you can naturally adjust the number of opponents to nil.

The reason I'm saying this, is for people who like me, want to radically change the world (and hopefully for the better).

i think this thread is starting to over analyze this whole refund thing

[mikewhatever]

Phrostbyte, that's interesting. It's rather surprising to see quite a few people speaking against Windows refunds here, but perhaps you are right. If one assumes that Microsoft and OEMs represent an establishment, perhaps we are seeing manifestations of deeply ingrained conservatism - not a bad quality at all, mind you. In fact, I like to think of myself as rather conservative. :)

[jfl]

Phrostbyte, I like the way you think.
However, I believe the subservient behavior is ingrained very early in life and reinforced by the school system. The chances of changing it are slim.

[blazemore]

Okay can I have your opinion on a few things? All of you?

1. Do you think I am entitled to a refund on the bundled Windows XP software?
2. Do you think it is worth my time pursuing a refund?
3. Do you think consumers should be able to choose to buy computers without an operating system, if they choose?

[Techsnap]

1. Do you think I am entitled to a refund on the bundled Windows XP software?No you're not, you live in the UK there are most definitely other options available where you can buy the product without Windows. It may be more expensive but so be it, if they choose to charge those prices then that's just the way it is.


2. Do you think it is worth my time pursuing a refund?If you were doing this on a time=money basis then no, you would have lost more money trying to get a refund then you would actually make out of it when you get it.


3. Do you think consumers should be able to choose to buy computers without an operating system, if they choose?You have the option to do so already. However I don't think that the typical stores (Currys, Comet, PC World etc) should sell OS less machines. Because most people don't know what they want to begin with, let's not give them the option of buy this and add this, or buy this but you can't have that software because it has Linux.

You know you could have got it somewhere else without an OS since these options are available here. I could understand if you were from a country where it's simply not an option but you know as well as I do that you have the choice to get it from another supplier and if it costs more than so be it, it's your choice.

[blazemore]

No you're not, you live in the UK there are most definitely other options available where you can buy the product without Windows. It may be more expensive but so be it, if they choose to charge those prices then that's just the way it is.

If you were doing this on a time=money basis then no, you would have lost more money trying to get a refund then you would actually make out of it when you get it.

You have the option to do so already. However I don't think that the typical stores (Currys, Comet, PC World etc) should sell OS less machines. Because most people don't know what they want to begin with, let's not give them the option of buy this and add this, or buy this but you can't have that software because it has Linux.

You know you could have got it somewhere else without an OS since these options are available here. I could understand if you were from a country where it's simply not an option but you know as well as I do that you have the choice to get it from another supplier and if it costs more than so be it, it's your choice.

Actually, I couldn't have got a new Samsung N140 without an OS.

[Dayofswords]

1. Do you think I am entitled to a refund on the bundled Windows XP software?
legally, yes
personally, why the heck not

2. Do you think it is worth my time pursuing a refund?
if you feel it is

3. Do you think consumers should be able to choose to buy computers without an operating system, if they choose?
would be nice

you dont have to seek our approval on this, do what you want

[Techsnap]

Actually, I couldn't have got a new Samsung N140 without an OS.

It looks like you're right about that so far from what I've searched for. So I was wrong about the first point. But still I think you're wasting time trying to get a refund for an OS which is worth practically nothing.

[Zoot7]

Okay can I have your opinion on a few things? All of you?

1. Do you think I am entitled to a refund on the bundled Windows XP software?
Well the machines OEMs sell are sold as packages generally you can't really expect to get a refund for one part alone.
Think of it like this, take graphics card in an OEM desktop as another example, say you buy one with an ATi card but you've an Nvidia card already, which you replace. Should you get a refund for the ATi card?


2. Do you think it is worth my time pursuing a refund?
No most certainly not, its far too much trouble. Anyway chances are you're not going to get much anyway, the general word of mouth is that OEMs aren't really paying anything for those XP licenses to begin with.


3. Do you think consumers should be able to choose to buy computers without an operating system, if they choose?
Yes I do think one should have the option, and it is there in some cases, just hard to find or not really economical in some cases. It would be great if the big OEMs offered their all machines without an OS, but they don't see money in it, so that's out. It's the nature of the beast when it comes to using an OS that has ~1/2% of marketshare.

But besides, I self build my desktops anyway, got extremely tired of the propriety lock down approach OEMs have when it comes to desktops. And as far as laptops are concerned if I'm realistic about it, one without Windows isn't much good to me, so I may aswell avail of the cheaper bundled copy of Windows, shame it's almost always full of crapware.

[blazemore]

Your analogies don't work because the EULA says I am entitled to a refund "In accordance with the manufacturers return policy" means they have to have one, not IF they have one!

[Ubom]

The manufacturers return policy might be either accept the EULA or return the whole thing, they might not offer a Windows return policy on its own.

[matthew1471]

I think all manufacturers should sell hardware with a 'no OS' option.

I'm surprised that there's not been any court action or similar. It must be nearly breaking some sort of law that hardware manufacturers force software on us that we don't want?

It's all about consumer choice; and at the moment, I don't get a choice!

[Zoot7]

Your analogies don't work because the EULA says I am entitled to a refund "In accordance with the manufacturers return policy" means they have to have one, not IF they have one!
The last time I remember seeing somebody quote the Windows EULA from an OEM license (I can't be bothered looking it up now) it said something to the effect that if you don't agree then you can return it to the OEM for a refund if applicable. The latter two words being rather significant.

I know it's annoying to have to pay Microsoft for their product if you have no intention to use it, but the OEMs don't see money in offering machines without an OS. After all, capitalism does fall down in places. ;)

[fewt]

Okay can I have your opinion on a few things? All of you?

1. Do you think I am entitled to a refund on the bundled Windows XP software?
2. Do you think it is worth my time pursuing a refund?
3. Do you think consumers should be able to choose to buy computers without an operating system, if they choose?


1. No
2. No
3. Yes, you can do that now. So what if it isn't the model that you like. Windows XP adds ~$10 US to the price of a netbook. If that is going to hurt then you shouldn't be purchasing a computer.

That said, there are plenty of non-windows netbooks, laptops, and desktops out there. Go buy one of those if it must be Windows free.

Your Windows install will be required if you need support, so go ahead and leave it on there. Just shrink the partition and forget its there.

[Queue29]

1. Do you think I am entitled to a refund on the bundled Windows XP software?
2. Do you think it is worth my time pursuing a refund?
3. Do you think consumers should be able to choose to buy computers without an operating system, if they choose?

1. No. You purchased a package of things. If I go to the store and buy a box of colored pencils, do I have the right to return the black one for a refund, just because I already own a gray pencil that does a good enough job?

2. That's up to you. In my world, time is money, time is limited, and I know for a fact I have better things to do than harass customer service reps who did nothing to me.

3. Yes, they're called servers, aimed at an audience that understands how to install operating systems. You're lucky that some manufactures even bother to sell linux-preinstalled on their products. Let me ask you this: do you think Apple should be required to ship their hardware without an OS installed? Or how about mobile phones? Do you think it would be a good idea for cell phones to be sold without an OS? Or how about graphing calculators? Do you think those should be sold without an OS? Or how about your alarm clock? Why not sell those with a blank flash chip, so you can program your own daylight savings time algorithms, since you're such a h4x0r.


Oh, and if you really wanted to "stick it to the man" or stand up for your "civil liberties", you should have purchased from System76 or Dell's Ubuntu section. They don't have exactly your flavor? Tough. That's a part of standing up for what you believe in. Purchasing a Windows license is hardly getting your point across.

[goldshirt9]

well i purchased a laptop without a operating system from ebuyer.co.uk
just under £400.
runs a treat and i did install XP and ubuntu.

i believs dell offer a no o/s or did do.
also they use to offer a linux laptop but am unsure if they still do.
in an ideal world all laptops would be supplied with the choice of o/s, but most people want Microsoft as its all they know of.
when highstreet stores start offering a choice then more people may choose other than microsoft.

[llawwehttam]

I usually by my computers from novatech or Dell ( both offer a no OS option) and I have never had problems.

I don't see why they should offer to refund you for windows when it came as part of a bundle deal.
I don't see that it is worth the effort of trying to reclaim your money and as you can already buy computers from many companies without OS's I don't see the problem myself.


Windows comes with most computers as It is a very easy OS to use with drivers for almost every piece of hardware so it is very good for the average computer user. I have seen many people get very upset when they buy a computer without an OS and then wonder why they can't start up into windows. Although linux has improved a lot in general it is still best used by geeks.

[sh4rkbyt3]

I agree with Grenage. Apparently you went into it initially knowing what you were going to try to do and then copied someone else's efforts to replicate the situation to make a point.
Sorry but my time is much more valuable than that and I chose battles that are more worthy of my investments.

[Frak]

1. Do you think I am entitled to a refund on the bundled Windows XP software?
2. Do you think it is worth my time pursuing a refund?
3. Do you think consumers should be able to choose to buy computers without an operating system, if they choose?

1. Yes and No. If it was a significant amount, yes, is it, no. I doubt they'll even be required to send it to you (less than 20 rule).
2. No
3. Only if the manufacturer decides it's a viable business model.

As for

"In accordance with the manufacturers return policy" means they have to have one, not IF they have one!

The policy they have might just be returning the whole computer.

[Giant Speck]

Your analogies don't work because the EULA says I am entitled to a refund "In accordance with the manufacturers return policy" means they have to have one, not IF they have one!

The quote "in accordance with the manufacturer's return policy" is not found within the EULA at all. The Windows XP EULA states the following only (boldface added for emphasis):


YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.

The EULA does not say you are entitled to a refund. It does, however, give you the freedom to seek a refund.
The EULA does not say that the manufacturer is required to give a refund.
The EULA does not say that the manufactuer's return policy must include terms and/or policies which must be followed in the specific case of returning a Microsoft product.

The Windows Vista EULA explains the process even better than the Windows XP EULA and includes instructions in the event that the consumer cannot receive a refund from the manufacturer:


By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit. If you cannot obtain a refund there, contact Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for information about Microsoft’s refund policies. See www.microsoft.com/worldwide. In the United States and Canada, call (800) MICROSOFT or see www.microsoft.com/info/nareturns.htm.


I cannot believe that after twenty two pages of discussion, we are still arguing about what the EULA itself specifically says.

[mikewhatever]

The last time I remember seeing somebody quote the Windows EULA from an OEM license (I can't be bothered looking it up now) it said something to the effect that if you don't agree then you can return it to the OEM for a refund if applicable. The latter two words being rather significant.

Well, what do you think is the significance of these last words? From the precedents sited in this thread, it should be clear that if users are persistent enough in demanding refunds, they get them. What do you think are the conditions, under which a Windows refund would not be applicable?

Edit: May I also propose staying within limits of reasonable objectivity. We've had lots of opinions, for and against, many of which are subjective.
Can anyone point to a court decision upholding the refusal of a Windows refund.


I know it's annoying to have to pay Microsoft for their product if you have no intention to use it, but the OEMs don't see money in offering machines without an OS. After all, capitalism does fall down in places. ;)

That's not true. OEMs sell hardware, that's their main business. Sure enough they may get additional revenue by reselling Windows and crapware, but to imply that's the only source of OEM's profit is rather preposterous.

[cptrohn]

Or better still, buy it with Windows and get a refund. ;)
I know what you think, and yet:
- you get the cheapest deal
- still get the model you want
- send a message to OEMs.

I just think that if you KNOWINGLY buy a computer with Windows that you shouldn't hassle them over it. Nobody made you buy it. You have the options from different manufacturers to get something else more to your needs and wants... I'm not going to buy a sandwich that I know comes with mushrooms if I don't like and don't eat mushrooms.

[mikewhatever]

I just think that if you KNOWINGLY buy a computer with Windows that you shouldn't hassle them over it. Nobody made you buy it. You have the options from different manufacturers to get something else more to your needs and wants... I'm not going to buy a sandwich that I know comes with mushrooms if I don't like and don't eat mushrooms.

Have you read the EULA clause referring to refunds? Had it not been for that clause, I would have completely understood your opinion. Yet, it clearly states that a user may seek the refund, so what's the problem? Why do OEMs sell products with such EULAs, if they have no intention of complying with them?

[fewt]

Have you read the EULA clause referring to refunds? Had it not been for that clause, I would have completely understood your opinion. Yet, it clearly states that a user may seek the refund, so what's the problem? Why do OEMs sell products with such EULAs, if they have no intention of complying with them?


YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.

Source: Microsoft (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/eula/home.mspx)

[mikewhatever]

YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.

Source: Microsoft (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/eula/home.mspx)

Please read post #230.;)
Are you trying to say that in this particular case the refund is not applicable? Can you explain why, objectively, if possible?

[fewt]

Please read post #230.;)

I did read it. It is only applicable if the vendor decides that it's applicable.

In this case, the method to get a refund seemed to be to return the whole system. That seems reasonable to me.

Read post #1 again, it appears that the vendor has decided that it is applicable and appears to be willing to give the user a refund.

If the vendor decided that it wasn't applicable though, it's not unreasonable to expect the consumer who made the purchase to have to accept that the consumer purchased the device knowing full well he or she was buying the device with Windows.

This user will most likely get no support from the vendor once his refund is complete, as the first thing the vendor will ask is for the user to restore from the restore media. That is not an unreasonable request either.

[mickie.kext]

Please read post #230.;)
Are you trying to say that in this particular case the refund is not applicable? Can you explain why, objectively, if possible?

Imposable. Bias overload detected.

[mikewhatever]

............

Read post #1 again, it appears that the vendor has decided that it is applicable and appears to be willing to give the user a refund.

If the vendor decided that it wasn't applicable though, it's not unreasonable to expect the consumer who made the purchase to have to accept that the consumer purchased the device knowing full well he or she was buying the device with Windows.

This user will most likely get no support from the vendor once his refund is complete, as the first thing the vendor will ask is for the user to restore from the restore media. That is not an unreasonable request either.

Agreed!:)
I think in most cases vendors have no choice but to comply with EULAs they redistribute with the software. Generally, the question is how much to refund, and not whether or not.
I am still curious to hear some sound and objective reasons to refuse Windows refunds. What might they be? Obviously, claims like 'you new in advance', 'it comes as a bundle' or 'you should have bought one with Linux' are not particularly useful, according to the precedents.
You are right about the support too. It would be unreasonable to expect support while running a different OS.

[fewt]

Agreed!:)
I think in most cases vendors have no choice but to comply with EULAs they redistribute with the software. Generally, the question is how much to refund, and not whether or not.
I am still curious to hear some sound and objective reasons to refuse Windows refunds. What might they be? Obviously, claims like 'you new in advance', 'it comes as a bundle' or 'you should have bought one with Linux' are not particularly useful, according to the precedents.
You are right about the support too. It would be unreasonable to expect support while running a different OS.

Being that the OS is disclosed in the description of the product and typically on the box, that would be sufficient reasoning to refuse a refund in my mind.

As for cost, I anticipate $10-$15.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/04/19/ms.asks.15.for.xp.netbooks/

[Post Monkeh]

is all this agro really worth it?
i mean i can understand people are annoyed that windows is everywhere, but the fact is that most people simply don't know enough about computers to care that there are options other than windows available, so i can't see there being any change to the way things are while the general public expect to just be able to turn a pc on and use it.

sorry to keep with the car analogies, but it essentially is like a car enthusiast buying a brand new car with the intention of modifying it to his own desires, and expecting to be able to strip the car out of all the things he doesn't want and get the price reduced accordingly. in reality, the car enthusiast will buy an already modified car, or just accept that he's going to be buying things that he's quickly going to replace.

there are options available if you don't want windows on a pc. maybe people want EVERY pc to be available with a choice, but like every other thing in the world, it aint gonna happen. some products offer a degree of customisation, most come as they are, like it or lump it. yes, the eula is there, and it may give you the right to fight for a refund, but realistically you know fine well before you buy a pc whether or not it comes with windows. as has been mentioned, if you want there to be more windowless options, then stop buying the ones that are bundled with windows.
personally if i saw a laptop that i really liked, but was really idealistic in my beliefs that i don't just want to pay for windows then delete it, then i'd contact the retailer prior to making the purchase and try to reach an agreement then.


while i can understand people's frustrations at the fact that the non-windows options seem to be more expensive, it's like mobile phones. buying the branded & locked handsets is cheaper than buying sim free ones. at least buying a windows laptop doesn't mean you can't install linux.

[mikewhatever]

Being that the OS is disclosed in the description of the product and typically on the box, that would be sufficient reasoning to refuse a refund in my mind.

Well, it could be the initial argument to try and put off the user. The question is, has it ever been upheld by any legal ruling? In the case sited in the link below, Dell had used the exact same argument, but opted to pay the refund nevertheless. Why? Why didn't they go to court to prove the case and create a precedent for the future refund claims?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/04/dell_windows_eula_israel/


As for cost, I anticipate $10-$15.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/04/19/ms.asks.15.for.xp.netbooks/

That could be.
Personally, I got a 30$ discount for Dell mini 10 netbook, and an Amazon customer sited in this thread got 44 BPS.

Edit:
Post Monkeh, a lot of people seem to like 'car and parts' analogy, but have you ever seen a car with parts licensed under EULAs? If so, can you quote one of those discussing refund policy.

[Post Monkeh]

Agreed!:)
I think in most cases vendors have no choice but to comply with EULAs they redistribute with the software. Generally, the question is how much to refund, and not whether or not.
I am still curious to hear some sound and objective reasons to refuse Windows refunds. What might they be? Obviously, claims like 'you new in advance', 'it comes as a bundle' or 'you should have bought one with Linux' are not particularly useful, according to the precedents.
You are right about the support too. It would be unreasonable to expect support while running a different OS.

precedents mean nothing. it just depends on who is dealing with each particular case.

[SuperSonic4]

"Pay for windows - whether you use it or not" seems to be a recurring element in this thread

[Post Monkeh]

If you really want to run Linux, you are not going to be saving a lot of money when compared to a Windows user.

1. Buy Windows preinstalled
Linux user - Research Linux compatibility before buying. Set up dual-boot or install Linux over Windows. Configure Linux. Takes time.
Windows user - Turn on the computer.

2. Buy Linux preinstalled
Linux user - Actually find a vendor that sells Linux preinstalled. Pay more.
Windows user - N/A

3. Buy Windows preinstalled, try for refund
Linux user - Waste a lot of time with phone calls, letters, emails, and possible small claims court appearance... may not even get a refund.
Windows user - N/A

So with Linux you're either spending extra time and energy to get back some money (which you may not even get), spending more upfront, or just spending a little more time. There is no ideal option here to save money... unless you're thinking of saving money long-term by not having to ever pay for or pirate an OS upgrade in the future.

i don't think the time involved in installing linux is too restrictive.

my very first install of ubuntu on my laptop a year ago took less than an hour, i can now do it in less than half an hour.

i was trying a few other distros on my desktop last month, i think it was maybe mandriva that installed in less than 5 minutes once i had completed the pre-install configuration!

[Post Monkeh]

"Pay for windows - whether you use it or not" seems to be a recurring element in this thread
more "if you really love a pc, even though it comes with windows and isn't available without windows - just buy it and then install linux.
if you're really against paying for anything that has windows installed, then buy a pc without windows"

[mikewhatever]

Post Monkeh, don't you have opinions bursting out of you.:p


"Pay for windows - whether you use it or not" seems to be a recurring element in this thread

Surprisingly so.

[Post Monkeh]

Post Monkeh, don't you have opinions bursting out from you.:p




i think the point here is that there should be more options available for people who don't want to use windows, but really, the vast majority of pc users simply aren't interested in os choices. windows does what they need it to, so most pcs will come with windows for reasons of pure simplicity.

and i know that technically you could argue that the eula entitles you to a refund, but it's an awful lot of hassle to go through for little reward.

[blazemore]

i think the point here is that there should be more options available for people who don't want to use windows, but really, the vast majority of pc users simply aren't interested in os choices. windows does what they need it to, so most pcs will come with windows for reasons of pure simplicity.

and i know that technically you could argue that the eula entitles you to a refund, but it's an awful lot of hassle to go through for little reward.

No it isn't! The more people who do this, the more manufacturers will start to write policies for this situation.
On the other hand, I'm a poor student with no job and too much time on my hands.

I want my tree-fitty (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tree%20fitty).

[saulgoode]

sorry to keep with the car analogies, but it essentially is like a car enthusiast buying a brand new car with the intention of modifying it to his own desires, and expecting to be able to strip the car out of all the things he doesn't want and get the price reduced accordingly. in reality, the car enthusiast will buy an already modified car, or just accept that he's going to be buying things that he's quickly going to replace.

To follow your analogy, one would have to consider that the customer is asked to sacrifice rights after purchasing the car, while those rights weren't sacrificed at the time of the purchase. For example, a customer buys a car and then when he later tries to use the radio, is told that he must agree to only use the radio for listening to country music or not be able to use the radio at all -- it would be quite within that customer's rights to return the car and ask for either a) to be refunded for amount of the useless radio (he doesn't like country) or b) have the entire transaction annulled and be compensated for his inconvenience.

[Post Monkeh]

we're all like microsoft in a way. we all want something for nothing.
keep fighting, i'm sure if you pester them enough you'll eventually get through, but for most people it simply isn't worth the time.
i would suggest that next time you're buying a pc you just buy one that doesn't have windows installed at all if it bothers you that much.

[Post Monkeh]

To follow your analogy, one would have to consider that the customer is asked to sacrifice rights after purchasing the car, while those rights weren't sacrificed at the time of the purchase. For example, a customer buys a car and then when he later tries to use the radio, is told that he must agree to only use the radio for listening to country music or not be able to use the radio at all -- it would be quite within that customer's rights to return the car and ask for either a) to be refunded for amount of the useless radio (he doesn't like country) or b) have the entire transaction annulled and be compensated for his inconvenience.

everyone knows what you're buying when you buy a pc bundled with windows, all this talk about the eula is just semantics, really it's not the eula people disagree with, they just don't want to pay for windows. the easiest solution is don't buy a pc that is bundled with windows. i understand that for some people this is difficult, which is unfortunate, but in most cases there are alternatives, people just choose to buy a pc bundled with windows then try their luck at getting a refund afterwards.

i think people should devote their time to promoting the benefits of linux, and actually educating people that there ARE options other than windows, then there would be a bigger market for windowless pcs.

as it stands, i think the availability of linux-only pcs on the market fairly reflects the demand, and people buying windows pcs then trying to fight to get refunds is really just a way of trying to annoy manufacturers into offering windowless pcs. i don't think it's ever going to work, manufacturers will offer products that will make them most money.