If a printer doesn't work in Mac OS X and Linux...

[aysiu]

why are the reactions to the printer not working so different on Mac and Linux forums?

Exhibit A
Printer drivers for a Mac (http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/os-x-applications-games/165494-printer-drivers-mac.html)

Mac user has a Canon printer with only Windows drivers available. Asks if it can be made to work, is told pretty much it can't, and then buys a new printer. No theatrics. No crazy sweeping indictments of Apple.


G'day,

Hopefully I am posting in the right area.

Anyway, I just about Googled out trying to find a printer driver for my Canon MP370 printer. I've been to the Canon website and there is nothing on there and I've read hundred of threads who are looking at the problem.

Anyway do I give up and buy another printer or has someone got a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Bob

Exhibit B
Why ALL distros of LINUX suck (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1397658)

Ubuntu user tries to set up a Canon printer in Ubuntu and has trouble with it. Declares all versions of Linux to "suck."


Yes, this is a rant. So I really don't care who says what. And this post has come about due to trying to install a Canon MP 130 printer in Ubuntu 9.10 (and no, I do not want to install an iP1500 printer either) and failing, without any reason being given (by the software). I have spent over 2hrs on this bloody task which has sucked up MORE time than any interation of Windows ever did.

There is a fundamental problem with those who create this type of software. These developers hope that Linux or any distro of it, like Ubuntu, will unseat Windows as the OS of choice for everyone. Well, this ain't gonna happen in a hundred years. And here is why .....

What's the deal here?

[MacJack]

It seems a portion of Linux users have serious beef on Ubuntu forums.

Either something sucks or they hate it.

These forums I am subject to insult just because I have a Mac, no other place on the net I have had this.

[Frak]

And how does this make you feel?

If you're finding inconsistencies between community opinions based on their view of different products, there are a few of us here who have been pointing that out all along. Much of the time, it's from the notion that everything works in Linux just 'cause. When they use it and find that it doesn't work, they gripe and complain that it isn't everything they wanted it to be. It's not this great OS that everybody made it out to be.

[jrusso2]

Because Apple does not state that its software works with everything just with what their hardware list works with and their printer list.

Linux tries to be like windows and advertises as being easy to use and install but when you have an issue the new user feels mislead.

[Simon17]

Maybe it's because people go around saying crap like "Linux supports he most hardware".

[Zoot7]

Same thing again really.

Somebody tries some flavour of Linux, then they find something harder or more convoluted than Windows/Mac or something doesn't work because they've unsupported hardware.
Then the whole world is falling down as regards the whole Linux ecosystem and it's doomed to failure for all eternity just based on their experiences alone.

Peronsally myself I don't think its ready for mass adoption on the desktop, but posts that follow this structure are best ignored. :)

[Yes]

Because Apple does not state that its software works with everything just with what their hardware list works with and their printer list.

Linux tries to be like windows and advertises as being easy to use and install but when you have an issue the new user feels mislead.

Please tell me where Linux has advertised itself as such.

I've seen Ubuntu advertise itself as easy to use, but it's not fair to say that Linux claims to be easy to use.

[Warpnow]

And how does this make you feel?

If you're finding inconsistencies between community opinions based on their view of different products, there are a few of us here who have been pointing that out all along. Much of the time, it's from the notion that everything works in Linux just 'cause. When they use it and find that it doesn't work, they gripe and complain that it isn't everything they wanted it to be. It's not this great OS that everybody made it out to be.

Yeah, because Apple doesn't inflate the functionality, ease of use, or compatibility of OSX/Macintosh at aaaaallll..

/sarcasm

[red_Marvin]

Maybe it's because people go around saying crap like "Linux supports he most hardware".
Hardware is not the same thing as latest generation consumer appliances.

[jrusso2]

Please tell me where Linux has advertised itself as such.

I've seen Ubuntu advertise itself as easy to use, but it's not fair to say that Linux claims to be easy to use.

See bug one

[Frak]

Yeah, because Apple doesn't inflate the functionality, ease of use, or compatibility of OSX/Macintosh at aaaaallll..

/sarcasm
Nobody wants to say their $1000 purchase was worthless. Besides, Macs are valued to a point that if a piece of hardware doesn't work with the computer, than the hardware manufacturer wasn't "classy" enough to support it.

[Yes]

See bug one

You mean Ubuntu bug one? Again, that's Ubuntu. No one's going to claim that all Linux distros are easy to use or install.

[jrusso2]

You mean Ubuntu bug one? Again, that's Ubuntu. No one's going to claim that all Linux distros are easy to use or install.

Please thats pedanctic

[Yes]

What are you talking about? Do you really think that anyone's claiming Linux distros like LFS or Gentoo are easy to install and use?

[pwnst*r]

Hardware is not the same thing as latest generation consumer appliances.

It is to noobs.

[Simon17]

Hardware is not the same thing as latest generation consumer appliances.

Yes it is.

And you know it. To the vast majority of computer users, "hardware" means printers, scanners, cameras, graphics cards, etc. Nobody gives a rat's *** than Linux can run on SPARC or ARM. If you tell someone "Linux supports the most hardware", you are (intentionally) misleading him.

[jrusso2]

What are you talking about? Do you really think that anyone's claiming Linux distros like LFS or Gentoo are easy to install and use?

If you don't understand a word I use feel free to look it up.

[Zoot7]

Maybe it's because people go around saying crap like "Linux supports he most hardware".


See bug one

Whilst I stand by what I said in my previous post about ignoring posts like this, I couldn't agree more here in the case of Ubuntu.
I am of the opinion that Ubuntu advocates itself as something that promises to deliever much much more than it does (Bug #1 is the prime example), and thus would be more critical of it.

[Yes]

If you don't understand a word I use feel free to look it up.

I did, perhaps I misunderstood what you were referring to as "pedantic"?

[jrusso2]

I did, perhaps I misunderstood what you were referring to as "pedantic"?

The argument itself was pedantic or maybe I should have listed the 500 linux distros and stated which claimed to be easy?

[Yes]

Ah, see I didn't get that from your three word reply.

I wouldn't mind if you claimed "most distros claim to be easy to install and use", but to say that all of Linux does is just as misleading and false as the claim some make about being easy.

[samh785]

It is to noobs.
and hipsters.

[thatguruguy]

Please thats pedanctic


If you don't understand a word I use feel free to look it up.

Seriously, I have no idea what a "thats" is, or what "pedanctic" means. Could you elucidate?

[thatguruguy]

The argument itself was pedantic or maybe I should have listed the 500 linux distros and stated which claimed to be easy?

I'm pretty sure that "pedantic" doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Simian Man]

See bug one

And that's the "number one" reason I don't use Ubuntu. It's their own fault that they attract people like the one who's mad that his printer doesn't work. They bring it on themselves by putting itself out as a Windows killer.

[samantha_]

Mac users: Knows the OS is different, so some things might not be supported....

Linux users: Many people get the wrong notion that linux is supposed to be a replacement for windows. which means they expect everything in linux to work as well and be as easy to use as in windows. i dont deal with those people. its a waste of time and effort....

now if we could make linux users think the same way mac users do when we tell them their printers a huge heavy paperweight....

[Frak]

Mac users: Knows the OS is different, so some things might not be supported....

Linux users: Many people get the wrong notion that linux is supposed to be a replacement for windows. which means they expect everything in linux to work as well and be as easy to use as in windows. i dont deal with those people. its a waste of time and effort....

now if we could make linux users think the same way mac users do when we tell them their printers a huge heavy paperweight....
There's the price difference. A (good) Mac is well over a grand, and thus implies quality builds. The interface is one of a kind, and people love it. It's touted by the media to be "the computer" to have.

Linux... it's either a Windows replacement or a geek OS. Either way, free makes it look cheap and unmaintained. The price standpoint, alone, makes Linux look a bit worse.

[MasterNetra]

I usually try to emphasize the fact that a Linux distro isn't windows. As for the hardware I usually say that it usually does a great job at detecting and using hardware and such, but its far from perfect and you may or may not experience issues. And It varies between different PC's and devices as well as the distro thats used.

[mamamia88]

it's weird i think it would be the other way around where linux users would anticipate the printer not working out of the box and finding a way to make it work where mac users would complain about it but buy a new printer

[steveneddy]

Here's my opinion on this matter, for what it's worth:

Mac users actually purchase a Mac, which is usually a little more expensive that any Windows PC I have seen lately.

Mac users understand that the software is different and will be inclined to purchase whatever it takes to make the Mac work with peripherals like printers, monitors and networking.

On the other hand, a user comes from the Windows world and wants to use some hardware that may not be supported in Linux very well or not at all. Since these users seem to view Linux and Windows on the same level, assuming so since both OS's will run on the same hardware, they mistakenly believe that all "computers" have a GUI for everything.

These new users are scared, intimidated or somehow put off by the command line or simply cannot seem to navigate, what seems simple to most users, menus that a child could figure out.

My guess is that these users are former Windows "Power Users" who mistakenly believe that since they "mastered" Windows, they are masters of everything computing. They mostly have no command line experience in Windows and find it foreign that we Linux users choose such an archaic way of interacting with our PC's.

There will be no way to stop this from happening due to the fact that most of these individuals are seemingly immature and don't seem to be motivated to figure things out for themselves, or simply follow elementary instructions and directions for performing relatively mundane tasks.

Those that can learn will, those that can't or won't will be left behind.

[SirBismuth]

It seems that too many people are lead to believe that Linux (or Ubuntu) are a replacement for Windows, when it should really be called an alternative to Windows.

I have been that the hardware I had when I installed Ubuntu for the first time, basically did just work. I had a much harder time in the past with other distros, but never whined about it. Probably because one of the big issues I had was accessing the Windows machine to share the internet connection, and therefore couldn't even get on to the Internet to whine. But then again, I would be looking for solutions then, not just to rant.

When a bought a printer about a month ago, my first stop when researching which one to buy, was not a vendor or retailer's site, but linuxprinting.org. Decided I wanted an HP, as their support in Linux is good, found a printer that was stated as working in Linux, had the features I wanted, and was within my budget, and bought it. It was said to work out the box according to linuxprinting.org, and it did. HP PhotoSmart C4683, if anyone is interested.

But since being back into Linux with 8.04, I have read numerous comments about doing your research before purchasing hardware for Linux. Works for me.

B

[CharlesA]

It's the whole. ZOMG it's not working, start a flame war!

For the record, I just tried installing my networked printer in 9.10. Installed and printed without any problems.

Thank you HP.

[cariboo]

It's a little unfair using the op of Exhibit B as an example, as he has a lot of other problems too, most of which were of his own making.

[handy]

Since Apple bought CUPS, I would have thought that what works on Mac's would also work on Linux (printer wise)?

Anyway, a little research goes a long way when it comes to FOSS & hardware compatibility.

People trying to migrate to a distro from windows, usually haven't much of a clue what is ahead of them. I think that most of them, would find that if they can hang in for 3 months, they will start to feel at home.

Hardware wise, what they already own, or what they buy (without research) comes down to the luck of the draw. Which when you think about it, is totally understandable, as very few hardware manufacturers support anything besides MS, with a splash of Apple thrown in for good measure (here & there).

[kelvin spratt]

I personally don't think any answer so far has hit the nail on the head I use a lot of Linux / Ms forums under different user names and do not see this type of bashing.
To me Ubuntu has brought this on itself.
It is asking people to rant and rave, Ubuntu Testimonials & Experiences, this is the invitation for every body to beat the last rant,
It was never intended that way but the moderators started to except this sort or behaviour and now this is what you get.
Other forums Ms/Apple Just ban and delete this sort of ranting so people do not post rants.
I'm afraid this is now just a game lets go to Ubuntu forums and rant.

[handy]

...
I'm afraid this is now just a game lets go to Ubuntu forums and rant.

It's just one of the many games people play.

[dmizer]

It seems a portion of Linux users have serious beef on Ubuntu forums.

Either something sucks or they hate it.

These forums I am subject to insult just because I have a Mac, no other place on the net I have had this.

If anyone on this forums insults you for any reason, please use the report post feature.

Thank you.

[Zoot7]

To me Ubuntu has brought this on itself.
Indeed. The viewpoint is very much Oh Install Ubuntu instead of Windows and See the Light!
As long as this is what people are lead to believe there's always going an abundance of those who are quite stung about something not working as it does in Windows and who'll vent on forums/blogs etc.

[red_Marvin]

Yes it is.

And you know it. To the vast majority of computer users, "hardware" means printers, scanners, cameras, graphics cards, etc. Nobody gives a rat's *** than Linux can run on SPARC or ARM. If you tell someone "Linux supports the most hardware", you are (intentionally) misleading him.

I refuse to be faulted for others not knowing the meaning of a word. To the vast majority of the population, "hacker" means "cracker"/"black hat hacker", that does not make the interpretation correct.

However, if I am talking about the topic with a non linux user I do add a more elaborate explanation than that.

If the user wants to use the computer as a consumer appliance, the user should buy a consumer appliance computer.

[blueturtl]

why are the reactions to the printer not working so different on Mac and Linux forums?

Exhibit A
Printer drivers for a Mac (http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/os-x-applications-games/165494-printer-drivers-mac.html)

Mac user has a Canon printer with only Windows drivers available. Asks if it can be made to work, is told pretty much it can't, and then buys a new printer. No theatrics. No crazy sweeping indictments of Apple.



Exhibit B
Why ALL distros of LINUX suck (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1397658)

Ubuntu user tries to set up a Canon printer in Ubuntu and has trouble with it. Declares all versions of Linux to "suck."



What's the deal here?

The Mac owner has already invested in a solution that works for him (a Mac in this case). He's happy with it and problems coming from the outside don't apply to the choice he's already made. The problem is the printer which is not compatible with his computer and that is the only problem that concerns him at this moment.

The Ubuntu user is a bitter and angry ex-Windows user. He is desperate to get out of Windows (a number of reasons for that probably). That said getting this particular PC was his choice and now he is upset that he may have put all his money into a system that doesn't quite work as well as he'd like. Going the Linux route is a last attempt at regaining the value. Maybe now all his money won't have gone to waste. Unfortunately he's put a lot of time and effort in to fixing his Windows set up (and failing to make it work) so by the time he gets to Ubuntu he's pretty much expecting plug-and-play operation. Any additional setting up or learning is too much after all the trouble with Windows. If he's unlucky, he's got plenty of hardware that isn't Linux friendly and so when the community tells him to replace his hardware it dawns on him that all the money really has gone to waste. He should have gotten a different system/printer/peripheral. There is nothing more upsetting than realising you put X amount of money in to a system that is never going to work the way you want it to (or that you could have had one for much cheaper had you known to look for one in the first place).

Us human beings don't usually like to place blame on ourselves so the Exhibit B guy does the classic thing and vents his anger on someone else. Microsoft support phone charges money as does Canon's so putting some angry feedback on the Ubuntu Forums seems like the way to go especially since it's also the final stop for his makeitworkathon. The final escape from his own bad decisions.

All this is pure speculation but some of it is based on my own experiences so... :)

[handy]

You wrapped it up for me blueturtl.

I wish I could write as clearly as you.

[forrestcupp]

We need to be honest and let everyone know up front that GNU/Linux is a hobbyist OS and that they shouldn't expect anything to work correctly or easily. Then when someone tries it out, their experience will more than likely be a little bit better than their expectations.

Is it better to have a few people that are happy, or a bunch of people who are mad and end up leaving anyway? Bad publicity isn't usually helpful.

[Grenage]

We need to be honest and let everyone know up front that GNU/Linux is a hobbyist OS and that they shouldn't expect anything to work correctly or easily.

I don't agree with that, and neither would the many companies running on linux. What people need to know is that Linux is not Windows, a copy of Windows, or an OS trying to be Windows. People also need to know that when they buy software or hardware, it should have Linux support.

Years ago this was commonplace, now that Windows is so ubiquitous people tend to assume that any PC kit will work on their PC. After all, I'm a PC and Windows 7 was....

[john_spiral]

....Ubuntu user tries to set up a Canon printer in Ubuntu and has trouble with it. Declares all versions of Linux to "suck."

What's the deal here?

User B is using classical Linux sucks psychology in the hope he will irritate the one Linux Jedi who knows how to get it working.

[handy]

I don't agree with that, and neither would the many companies running on linux. What people need to know is that Linux is not Windows, a copy of Windows, or an OS trying to be Windows. People also need to know that when they buy software or hardware, it should have Linux support.

Years ago this was commonplace, now that Windows is so ubiquitous people tend to assume that any PC kit will work on their PC. After all, I'm a PC and Windows 7 was....

Would & should, are very different to is.

(I'm usually sorry to say.)

[Regenweald]

If you look at it in another way, look at the customer bases. Who can afford to install a linux distro? everyone, and that comes with all the good and crappy user attitudes when something is free. Now who can afford a Mac ? people that are well off and probably business professionals. One set will get printer problem and simply keep returning and buying till one works, one set bought the mac as a business tool and may just be level headed and mature. I sure mac rants pop up in their forums, it would just have a less likely incidence because Mac is a bit more choosey with it's clientele.

[red_Marvin]

We need to be honest and let everyone know up front that GNU/Linux is a hobbyist OS and that they shouldn't expect anything to work correctly or easily.
I get the association "unfit for professional use" from "hobbyist", which clearly linux is not. It might be just me though.


If you look at it in another way, look at the customer bases. Who can afford to install a linux distro? everyone, and that comes with all the good and crappy user attitudes when something is free. Now who can afford a Mac ? people that are well off and probably business professionals. One set will get printer problem and simply keep returning and buying till one works, one set bought the mac as a business tool and may just be level headed and mature. I sure mac rants pop up in their forums, it would just have a less likely incidence because Mac is a bit more choosey with it's clientele.

Hehe, linux should go back to being more elitist?

[handy]

I get the association "unfit for professional use" from "hobbyist", which clearly linux is not. It might be just me though.

I think forrestcupp may have meant that you need to be a bit of a geek to be a Linux user.

You certainly don't have to be a geek for OS X.

Whenever a non Linux user is curious about Linux, I always say that there needs to be a geek in the household, & if there is no geek, then get a Mac, it'll be more reliable in the long run & the money saved on getting people to fix an MS system which has been trashed by mal-ware of one form or another, & the money saved in not having to purchase (& subscribe annually) anti-virus/mal-ware will help offset the price difference.

[forrestcupp]

I don't agree with that, and neither would the many companies running on linux.


I get the association "unfit for professional use" from "hobbyist", which clearly linux is not. It might be just me though.

I confess. That statement may have been a small flame. :oops: Sorry.

I do think people should be upfront and honest about what Linux is and what it is not, though.

[cariboo]

If the guy in Example B had post a support question about his printer, I'm pretty sure most of the answers would have been "Get a different printer"

[red_Marvin]

I do think people should be upfront and honest about what Linux is and what it is not, though.
I agree on that, however the problem I think is more often than not, not insincerity, but that geek G and luddite L discussing technology will use the same words, but with different meanings and expectations.

[HC48]

I think forrestcupp may have meant that you need to be a bit of a geek to be a Linux user.

You certainly don't have to be a geek for OS X.

Whenever a non Linux user is curious about Linux, I always say that there needs to be a geek in the household, & if there is no geek, then get a Mac, it'll be more reliable in the long run & the money saved on getting people to fix an MS system which has been trashed by mal-ware of one form or another, & the money saved in not having to purchase (& subscribe annually) anti-virus/mal-ware will help offset the price difference.

I thoroughly agree with this, I am no specialist but I'm really enjoying the challenge of Ubuntu (with help from my'geeks') , it's freeeee, better than scrabble, great value I think.

H :)

[Shakz]

Please thats pedanctic

I had to look that up.
academic: marked by a narrow focus on or display of learning especially its trivial aspects
Good word! Props!
Mac sux....if your rich sure then why not. If your middle class like me dropping 2k on a laptop isnt feasible. Spent 1200 on my XPS and its running ubuntu like a champ HOWEVER....I also paid 150 for an all in one printer to go with it. (before I started using linux on my home puters.)

Yes I was miffed that my snazzy new wireless printer/scanner/footrubber wouldnt work with ubuntu. Didnt stop me from running ubuntu though. I just have a 60gb partition on my desktop and the wife is allowed to still use winblowz till we get a new printer years from now. Might just go ahead and bite the bullet next time we need ink...that craps expensive!

[gletob]

What's the deal here?

The deal is one sounds civilized, and one sounds like a inconsiderate person, and frankly seems like a complete idiot, for being so demanding of something that is 1. Free/Open Source 2. Caused by unopen Manufacturers.

This is in no way true for all of either type of users.

[aysiu]

If your middle class like me dropping 2k on a laptop isnt feasible. Spent 1200 on my XPS and its running ubuntu like a champ HOWEVER.... That's funny. My wife's $1200 Macbook Pro also runs like a champ. Where are you getting this 2k business from?

[murderslastcrow]

I've heard this many, many times. For some reason, Mac users are willing to get Mac-specific peripherals, while Linux users just expect a completely free OS to just support everything (and it nearly does!).

I think, since people can expect Ubuntu to work with most devices, people get that much more upset when something doesn't. However, in most cases, it's just a matter of getting a proprietary driver or waiting for the driver to be merged into the kernel.

This is personally part of the reason why I won't get a Mac. I don't use Adobe CS, iTunes, or any Mac-specific software, and I'm not going to pay to get less hardware support. It just doesn't make sense.

However, I think if you went out and bought Linux from a store for a hefty price and it was overhyped, just like OS X, people would be more willing to move around with that purchase.

The majority of new Linux converts are usually Windows refugees who just want everything to be the same as it was, but without the slow, malware infested, pricey part of it. And, ironically, that's usually what they get, although it's an unrealistic expectation.

We're spoiled, so we get upset when things don't go perfectly, when in all honesty, we don't deserve it to work so well as it does if we aren't grateful for what we already have.

Software freedom? I saved tons of money and hassle and time by using Linux, and my new printer isn't supported until the next kernel release!? Well, in that case, screw it all, EVERYTHING about Linux sucks because one tiny, miniscule, obscure problem happened to ME, and I felt like I wasn't using Windows 3000 anymore. Boohoo.

Seriously, man, it's not that hard to get Linux specific hardware; stop insulting the hard work of millions of developers because it's not exactly what you dreamed it up to be, only ridiculously close. If you're that upset, just dual-boot.

[madjr]

why are the reactions to the printer not working so different on Mac and Linux forums?

Exhibit A
Printer drivers for a Mac (http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/os-x-applications-games/165494-printer-drivers-mac.html)

Mac user has a Canon printer with only Windows drivers available. Asks if it can be made to work, is told pretty much it can't, and then buys a new printer. No theatrics. No crazy sweeping indictments of Apple.



Exhibit B
Why ALL distros of LINUX suck (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1397658)

Ubuntu user tries to set up a Canon printer in Ubuntu and has trouble with it. Declares all versions of Linux to "suck."



What's the deal here?

Plan A:
tell him only hp and lexmark(?) printers work

plan B:
forward him to mac forums (that thread)