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billenbois
February 3rd, 2010, 01:18 PM
I hope this is an ok place to post this. I *must* share my pain.
I have used MS office sometimes, not a lot. It's not all great but its ok i guess.

I have used openoffice the same way.. its been mostly ok. But these days, I have real document work, and I use openoffice. And i realized its the plague.
Seriously, openoffice plain sucks! There are so many bugs I don't bother going to report them anymore, it takes WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more time than to do the ACTUAL WORK i have to do.
The interface is so ugly, inconsistent, full of zillion crap options which do not matter and lack the ones which actually matters.
The auxilliary draw program is a bad joke of its own.

Let's start with a few ugly things:

you're working, typing, and autosave kicks in.. blocking keyboard input, resetting cursor position. YAY.

you're scrolling, and start selecting with shift.. instant rollback to your previous cursor location unless you wait 2 second doing nothing before pressing shift. YAY.

Your stuff get auto capitalized (among other things), so you find out the option menu, go into writer options and select "formatting aids".. only to find out theres no option there to disable it. Oh yay, Google it then! Oh look its in autocorrect, different menu. Logic? what logic? putting all options in "options"? Oh noes god forbid.

Now you want to space out a heading.. click on front, hit return.. bang it makes a new additional heading. ffs.

Going to stop here before my list reach 100 items.
Time lost due to openoffice weirdness, bugs, and illogic options would make me consider buying MS office + windows, unless there's any decent alternative (i don't care if it doesnt have all the functions as long as all the basic stuff WORKS (like scrolling you know.) and it outputs ODT)

dragos240
February 3rd, 2010, 01:22 PM
Well..... openoffice isn't the only free and open source office suite for linux you know. If you don't like it, don't use it.

Roasted
February 3rd, 2010, 01:27 PM
I use OpenOffice every day.

Love it.

*shrug*

Bachstelze
February 3rd, 2010, 01:29 PM
Learn to latex.

:D

dragos240
February 3rd, 2010, 01:30 PM
lrn2latex

:D

I knew someone would suggest latex.

billenbois
February 3rd, 2010, 01:34 PM
Well..... openoffice isn't the only free and open source office suite for linux you know. If you don't like it, don't use it.

like if i had a choice. in case you havent realized, the lobbying recently made a lot of administration switch to openoffice and you've to use this and nothing else. I thought it was a good thing. I really did. Until I had to actually make real work with it.

and i'm not sure how one can like ooo when they *really* have to do *real* document work, aka more than a simple report or simple documentation. its a complete horror. and slow on top of that.

i'll add some while i'm at it. Ever wanted to make a simple window split? Np! open 2 windows and put them on top of each other.. cause.. only the calc supports splitting. ofc. talk about impracticable

billenbois
February 3rd, 2010, 01:34 PM
lrn2latex

:D

i would prefer using latex 1000 times if i had the choice. that's saying a lot. (hell, i could use vim at least)

thatguruguy
February 3rd, 2010, 01:38 PM
I can't tell if, when you're talking about doing "real work", you're discussing work done at home or in an office. Assuming that you have control over the computer you're using, have you installed AbiWord and tried it?

thatguruguy
February 3rd, 2010, 01:39 PM
like if i had a choice. in case you havent realized, the lobbying recently made a lot of administration switch to openoffice and you've to use this and nothing else.

I have absolutely no idea what this means. Please restate.

Grenage
February 3rd, 2010, 01:41 PM
A lot of departments (especially in the public sector) have now switched to OO on the grounds that it's 'just as good, more secure and free'.

billenbois
February 3rd, 2010, 01:43 PM
dear guruguy, if you had read my rant, you'd realize i work in an office, and as i already wrote, i do not have a choice. i think "not have a choice" was clear enough.. wasn't it?

haven't you read how administrations of many countries switched to open office because "its so good" ? well thats why i'm forced to use it.
And I thought it was ok, its good software etc. I used it in the past for simple documents with simple formatting and its been ok. But god, I was wrong. Go head and work on a 200 pages doc with changes, styles, tables etc and experience the hell.

I'm an opensource fan kind of guy but there's limits. Crap software is crap software.

dragos240
February 3rd, 2010, 01:44 PM
Put the application on a usb stick, or have linux on a usb stick. You ALWAYS have a choice.

madnessjack
February 3rd, 2010, 01:47 PM
Just keep formatting simple, it can't be that hard if you don't anything too fancy, can it? :P

Grenage
February 3rd, 2010, 01:48 PM
I personally think that most problems stem from s%*t document design; it puts me in mind of users on office 97, with 100+ page documents and just as many embedded images. They ended up corrupt and unusable a lot of the time.

Not that OO is perfect, but I never got along with MS Office. For every person like me, there is a person like you. I have more issues with MS word, you have more with OO.

cb951303
February 3rd, 2010, 01:53 PM
I agree with you completely. I myself ranted couple of times about OOo in these forums. Did you try the formula editor and the spreadsheet charts yet? I assure you, you'll want to kill yourself.

There are couple of things that OOo is good for though.
1- Stability (It's slow and badly designed but I never actually saw it crash or mess the formatting/styling up.)
2- Spread of the ODF file format.

BTW, I tried AbiWord too. It's buggy and lacks features. Also the ODF support is very bad.

For spreadsheets, I highly recommend Gnumeric. It's the best spreadsheet I've ever used including all the MS Office versions. But again it's ODF support is very very bad.

thatguruguy
February 3rd, 2010, 01:57 PM
dear guruguy, if you had read my rant, you'd realize i work in an office, and as i already wrote, i do not have a choice. i think "not have a choice" was clear enough.. wasn't it?

I did read the rant, and you didn't state that you work in an office, nor did you state that you did "not have a choice." In fact, there was in implication that you did have a choice and that you were considering different alternatives:



Time lost due to openoffice weirdness, bugs, and illogic options would make me consider buying MS office + windows, unless there's any decent alternative (i don't care if it doesnt have all the functions as long as all the basic stuff WORKS (like scrolling you know.) and it outputs ODT)

BTW, how often do you work on documents that are several hundreds of pages? What kind of office do you work in?

Have you considered posting this or a similar rant on the open office forum (http://www.oooforum.org/)? Do you just want to complain, or do you want your issues addressed?

arnab_das
February 3rd, 2010, 02:09 PM
have been using open office for a long time. i have even used it on windows. i dont see the point in spending a few hundred $ on MS office, when u can have such a great alternative for free.

as for those issues, i can only identify with the capitalisation issues, the rest of the issues i havent faced (is that strange?).

and if u think open office needs to improve, ur in luck, you can actually send feedback and bug reports. if u had MS office, you could indeed do that as well, but then Microsoft would release a new version with the improvements and then ask you to pay again for it. see why i like open office?

Roasted
February 3rd, 2010, 02:16 PM
Not that OO is perfect, but I never got along with MS Office. For every person like me, there is a person like you. I have more issues with MS word, you have more with OO.

Agreed. I'm surrounded by Windows boxes at work with Office 07 on them, but I always seem to turn them away because OOo does everything I need to. It's quicker, laid out easier for me to run efficiently, etc.

The only gripe I have of OOo at all is when I hit the delete key on a cell in OOo's spreadsheet, it always prompts me what exactly I want to delete (just the contents, contents + formula, etc). Besides that, I friggen love it.

thatguruguy
February 3rd, 2010, 02:23 PM
The only gripe I have of OOo at all is when I hit the delete key on a cell in OOo's spreadsheet, it always prompts me what exactly I want to delete (just the contents, contents + formula, etc). Besides that, I friggen love it.

To me, that sounds like a feature instead of a bug.

Disc_golfer
February 3rd, 2010, 02:35 PM
Yep, if all the features bother you, use a plain text editor.

koshatnik
February 3rd, 2010, 02:55 PM
I hope this is an ok place to post this. I *must* share my pain.
I have used MS office sometimes, not a lot. It's not all great but its ok i guess.

I have used openoffice the same way.. its been mostly ok. But these days, I have real document work, and I use openoffice. And i realized its the plague.
Seriously, openoffice plain sucks! There are so many bugs I don't bother going to report them anymore, it takes WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more time than to do the ACTUAL WORK i have to do.
The interface is so ugly, inconsistent, full of zillion crap options which do not matter and lack the ones which actually matters.
The auxilliary draw program is a bad joke of its own.

Let's start with a few ugly things:

you're working, typing, and autosave kicks in.. blocking keyboard input, resetting cursor position. YAY.

you're scrolling, and start selecting with shift.. instant rollback to your previous cursor location unless you wait 2 second doing nothing before pressing shift. YAY.

Your stuff get auto capitalized (among other things), so you find out the option menu, go into writer options and select "formatting aids".. only to find out theres no option there to disable it. Oh yay, Google it then! Oh look its in autocorrect, different menu. Logic? what logic? putting all options in "options"? Oh noes god forbid.

Now you want to space out a heading.. click on front, hit return.. bang it makes a new additional heading. ffs.

Going to stop here before my list reach 100 items.
Time lost due to openoffice weirdness, bugs, and illogic options would make me consider buying MS office + windows, unless there's any decent alternative (i don't care if it doesnt have all the functions as long as all the basic stuff WORKS (like scrolling you know.) and it outputs ODT)

Thanks for ranting.

meho_r
February 3rd, 2010, 03:01 PM
@OP: dear bro, I think all you have to do is to sit down and learn to use the bloody program. And you don't even have to buy a book, just use help files provided. Your rant is more about you're lack of knowledge (or patience) than it is about OOo "bugs".

I've been using OOo for years now, I wrote countless number of documents, prepared couple of books for the press (yes, real books, over 300 pages, with latin and arabic text), recently proofread two over-600-pages books, with change tracking activated (I mention that because this is the only problematic thing when working on large projects since it has a great impact on performance). Apart from that, OOo worked beautifully.

Of course, there is nothing that can compare to LaTeX, but OOo do the job for great number of people. If you're not one of them, then report the bugs you encountered or go and buy Win+MSO. Simple as that.

BTW, "problems" you encountered are just ridiculous. Seriously, creating "space" before a heading with Enter/Return?! C'mon, man.

pwnst*r
February 3rd, 2010, 03:16 PM
Put the application on a usb stick, or have linux on a usb stick. You ALWAYS have a choice.

Not when ports are locked down.

Ozor Mox
February 3rd, 2010, 03:20 PM
*Processing your rant*

*Processing complete: 4 solutions found*

1. Complain that you don't like OpenOffice and want to use alternative software like Microsoft Office.

2. Bring alternative software on a memory stick or in some way work around it to use what you want.

3. Report bugs to OpenOffice to get them fixed.

4. Shut up.

For what it's worth, the most significant work I have done with OOo is my university final year project and I found the software no problem to use. Granted, I didn't do anything super complicated. I also didn't try to open Microsoft Office documents in it, which seems to be a very common complaint with OOo.

pwnst*r
February 3rd, 2010, 03:21 PM
2. Bring alternative software on a memory stick or in some way work around it to use what you want.



Before doing something stupid like #2, find out from your sys admin if that's doable.

cb951303
February 3rd, 2010, 03:29 PM
what happened to self-criticism? we are all free software advocates here but some of us are not afraid to tell that "Software X" sucks even if it's open source.

chewearn
February 3rd, 2010, 03:32 PM
The only gripe I have of OOo at all is when I hit the delete key on a cell in OOo's spreadsheet, it always prompts me what exactly I want to delete (just the contents, contents + formula, etc). Besides that, I friggen love it.

+1
Have the same gripe. Have to select "All" and click OK every frigging time. Where is the checkbox that says: "use this setting already, stop bugging me!"

If I want to change my default behaviour, I would use the menu for something like "Delete (special)".

And them saying it's a feature, it's a stooopid feature.

meho_r
February 3rd, 2010, 03:33 PM
what happened to self-criticism? we are all free software advocates here but some of us are not afraid to tell that "Software X" sucks even if it's open source.

Well if it does, we will :D

Ozor Mox
February 3rd, 2010, 03:36 PM
what happened to self-criticism? we are all free software advocates here but some of us are not afraid to tell that "Software X" sucks even if it's open source.

But what good is "Software X sucks" to anyone? In the case of the OP they can either report bugs, complain to IT or suck it up. If the OP thinks they know pain through being forced to use OpenOffice, I have to use IE6 at work when doing web development because that's what our customer uses. Not only is it the epitome of proprietary garbage, but I don't just have to use it I have to develop for it!

...

Where's the world's smallest violin? :)

CharlesA
February 3rd, 2010, 03:39 PM
The only gripe I have of OOo at all is when I hit the delete key on a cell in OOo's spreadsheet, it always prompts me what exactly I want to delete (just the contents, contents + formula, etc). Besides that, I friggen love it.

I get annoyed when I am doing mass deletions and get that prompt and wish it could be turned off.


Before doing something stupid like #2, find out from your sys admin if that's doable.

Agreed.

cb951303
February 3rd, 2010, 03:45 PM
But what good is "Software X sucks" to anyone? In the case of the OP they can either report bugs, complain to IT or suck it up. If the OP thinks they know pain through being forced to use OpenOffice, I have to use IE6 at work when doing web development because that's what our customer uses. Not only is it the epitome of proprietary garbage, but I don't just have to use it I have to develop for it!

...

Where's the world's smallest violin? :)

in that logic any criticism is useless.

as OP stated: "I hope this is an ok place to post this. I *must* share my pain."

he just wants to share. I don't find this type of thread as a "rant" because he actually have valid points. that's what I meant by "criticism".

there is a nuance between rant and critique.

Ozor Mox
February 3rd, 2010, 04:20 PM
in that logic any criticism is useless.

as OP stated: "I hope this is an ok place to post this. I *must* share my pain."

he just wants to share. I don't find this type of thread as a "rant" because he actually have valid points. that's what I meant by "criticism".

there is a nuance between rant and critique.

Agreed. I wasn't commenting on what the OP said, just that saying "Software X sucks" is useless to everyone. As for the criticisms that the OP did use, I haven't come across any of them, though I did also say the heaviest work I've done with OOo is not massively advanced. To be honest, I just found them a bit rude with all this "if you'd have read what I put" and so on, as if we're all tech support or something.

pwnst*r
February 3rd, 2010, 04:29 PM
as if we're all tech support or something.

Had to quote that.

clanky
February 3rd, 2010, 04:39 PM
I would have to agree, I use open office for my own personal stuff, but if I would rather stab myself in the eye with a fork than use it at work.

OOo is great for doing most word processing stuff and for basic spreadsheet work, but if you have to get serious stuff done then MS office is streets ahead.

newbie2
February 3rd, 2010, 04:54 PM
Here is also a 'rant' from R.M.S. himself (the original text is already from 2002 , but it is still 'up-to-date'):
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
:rolleyes::P

Keith_Beef
February 3rd, 2010, 05:18 PM
dear guruguy, if you had read my rant, you'd realize i work in an office, and as i already wrote, i do not have a choice. i think "not have a choice" was clear enough.. wasn't it?

haven't you read how administrations of many countries switched to open office because "its so good" ? well thats why i'm forced to use it.
And I thought it was ok, its good software etc. I used it in the past for simple documents with simple formatting and its been ok. But god, I was wrong. Go head and work on a 200 pages doc with changes, styles, tables etc and experience the hell.

I'm an opensource fan kind of guy but there's limits. Crap software is crap software.

OK, if you could just take a deep breath and calm down for a second... Now that you've let off a bit of steam, perhaps you'll accept a little bit of advice.

First of all, I think that many of us have been in a similar situation to yours.

The organisation (whether this is "la Fonction Publique", an NGO or a (hopefully) profit-making company makes no difference) decides to adopt a particular process or tool.

How the decision is taken is irrelevant, the decision has been taken, and you, the employees, must comply.

This requires a change in your work habits: you must adapt.

If you adapt quickly, the day-to-day running of the organisation is minimally disrupted, and hopefully the new process or tool improves the overall productivity after the period of adaptation is over.

It is management's duty to reduce both the intensity and duration of the disruption, and the best way to do this is through training.

If you have not been trained, you cannot be expected to perform at the best of your potential. Make this case to your management, and possibly your trade union.

Lastly, more specific to your adoption of Open Office, you should have been provided with standardized templates for your documents. If you don't have these, you need to point this out to management. You might even be able to lock down the number of formatting options that are presented in the interface (I don't have enough experience of OOo, but this should be possible).

K.

K.

JayKay3000
February 3rd, 2010, 05:30 PM
Not had any probs since I started using OpenOffice as my primary for uni, getting on near a year now.

I use it on windows 7(x64), linux ubuntu, vista when I use the uni machines and on my old x32 windows xp.

I submit all my uni work with it and never had any probs using it or teachers reading it.

As far as ugly it simply uses the same style of interface as Office 2000.

I've done drawings in their version of word, created presentations, databases and spreadsheets and never come across a bug or problem that has caused me anger or stopped me from doing what I need to do.

Friends who use it don't seem to have any problems either.

But everything is personal taste.

texaswriter
February 3rd, 2010, 05:44 PM
Open Office 3.0 is far better than the last version. So good, I custom installed it on my Debian Lenny box at home...Ubuntu comes with 3.0.xxx.. whatever version that is..

It has all the same functionality as MS Office 2007, just no ribbon.

Previous version of OO was very buggy, horrible. New one, I haven't had a single problem with it, especially even when converting something complex like a Power Point with all sorts of animations... They all translate over seamlessly to MS Office 2007.

BUT, OpenOffice is even better if you stay in its own format.

Abdus
February 3rd, 2010, 05:59 PM
you're scrolling, and start selecting with shift.. instant rollback to your previous cursor location unless you wait 2 second doing nothing before pressing shift. YAY.
I admit, this 'feature' drives me mad. :D

I won't defend OO till death. I like it, I use it, but I know its flaws and bugs. It's far from perfect, true. But it gets better every year.

And it is better than MS Word for many purposes (I mean OO Write), if you use it properly. And this sentence:

Now you want to space out a heading.. click on front, hit return.. bang it makes a new additional heading. ffs.
is a proof you don't use OO how you are supposed to. Formatting heading should be done only using paragraph/text styles. I do use them. They rock. Well... they are not perfect, but they do their job.

I hope your frustration will go away soon. Good luck!


EDIT:

and i'm not sure how one can like ooo when they *really* have to do *real* document work, aka more than a simple report or simple documentation. its a complete horror. and slow on top of that.
I did tons of very real and very freaking long documents in OO. I did funny stuff. Serious stuff. Stupid stuff. Stuff for kids. All kinds of stuff. It works, if yo use it correctly. Use styles. In a proper document there is never a need for a single empty line ('entered' line). Learn to use it properly, it will pay back.


The only gripe I have of OOo at all is when I hit the delete key on a cell in OOo's spreadsheet, it always prompts me what exactly I want to delete (just the contents, contents + formula, etc). Besides that, I friggen love it.
Hit Backspace instead. Voilą!

LowSky
February 3rd, 2010, 06:17 PM
I've been using OpenOffce at home for years. I love it for the most part, why pay hundreds if this is free? I've written college papers with it and even done Intensive Formula work in Calc. Sure it does support macros the same way as MS Office but I get bye very well with it. Even Impress works well with Powerpoint slides.

mkendall
February 3rd, 2010, 07:44 PM
The only gripe I have of OOo at all is when I hit the delete key on a cell in OOo's spreadsheet, it always prompts me what exactly I want to delete (just the contents, contents + formula, etc). Besides that, I friggen love it.


I get annoyed when I am doing mass deletions and get that prompt and wish it could be turned off.

If all you want to do is clear the content from a cell, press [Backspace].

The main gripe I have with Open Office is that in Calc they changed the separator from the semicolon to the comma. Unless that's Go-OO feature.

HermanAB
February 3rd, 2010, 08:01 PM
I use OOo on my Linux machines and MS Office on the Windows ones. OOo is mosltly OK. My only gripe is that if I create a docx in MS Word 2007 and stick some pictures (block diags) into it - then if I open the docx with OOo, the pictures are missing. That precludes any cross platform work on the same doc.

andras artois
February 3rd, 2010, 08:45 PM
It's free, complete office suite. There's no reason to complain. If you don't like it then you can fork out the £80 for MS Office.

drooze
February 3rd, 2010, 09:17 PM
all that needs to change for me is the interface. I'm not saying OOo needs to copy the ribbon, although I do think it's an improvement.

Surely, long-time users will have to relearn a lot, but you have to admit: for first-time users the menu-layouts are on big mess.

OOo is based on the old Ms office interface, and even Ms acknowledged that the current features have outgrown the interface.

(I saw a few mockups a while back, some of them very good. any updates on that?)

underquark
February 3rd, 2010, 09:52 PM
I tried the word-processor that came with the Apple II and wondered why anyone would bother with a word processor. Then I used Lotus 123 and got the point about spreadsheets. I've used various versions of Excel, Word, Powerpoint. OO is fine, as far as I'm concerned apart from the odd niggle in Calc -mainly I miss [ctrl-c]...[Alt-e-s-v] to quickly replace a formula with its result. Basically, you get used to something and then when you're made to change you don't like it.

pwnst*r
February 3rd, 2010, 09:55 PM
It's free, complete office suite. There's no reason to complain. If you don't like it then you can fork out the £80 for MS Office.

You're right. Because of the fact that it's free, people shouldn't voice any criticism.

yester64
February 3rd, 2010, 10:00 PM
Open Office has a 21% marketshare in germany. MS still leads with 72%
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/02/02/2148201/OpenOffice-Tops-21-Market-Share-In-Germany?from=rss


I worked with Openoffice and i, by my experience, can not see what is wrong with it.
But to be truth, if you expect MS Office and use OpenOffice you will get disappointed.
Still it can archive the same things that MS can. And, you hear also a lot of people saying positive things about OO. So it can't be that bad.

thatguruguy
February 3rd, 2010, 10:30 PM
You're right. Because of the fact that it's free, people shouldn't voice any criticism.

I think that people should criticize things that don't work. However, I think there's a difference between criticism and a "rant." Moreover, I'd think that if I had issues with a particular program, and the creators of that program maintained a forum, I'd go to that forum to get my issues addressed. If what I wanted was to actually get my issues addressed, rather than simply wanting to complain.

Zoot7
February 3rd, 2010, 10:32 PM
Openoffice is fine for some basic home usage despite its maddening shortcomings. But for advanced professional technical reports (which I have to prepare quite often) there's simply nothing to top Microsoft Word.

Open Office has a 21% marketshare in germany. MS still leads with 72%
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/02/02/2148201/OpenOffice-Tops-21-Market-Share-In-Germany?from=rss
I have to take those figures with a large grain of salt to say the least, they're are quite hard quantify and I'd say they're largely hearsay more than anything else.
Other than the friends of mine that run some flavor of Linux there's nobody I know that actively uses Openoffice.

pwnst*r
February 3rd, 2010, 10:47 PM
I think that people should criticize things that don't work. However, I think there's a difference between criticism and a "rant." Moreover, I'd think that if I had issues with a particular program, and the creators of that program maintained a forum, I'd go to that forum to get my issues addressed. If what I wanted was to actually get my issues addressed, rather than simply wanting to complain.

Except it's a general forum here and rants are seen on a constant basis.

thatguruguy
February 3rd, 2010, 10:56 PM
Except it's a general forum here and rants are seen on a constant basis.

I get that. As stated, though, there's a difference between a criticism and a rant. And I think that a different response should be expected based upon whether one is posting a criticism vs. a rant. Criticism has at least the potential to lead to something constructive, whereas a rant should be expected to lead to a flame war.

Rants are for kids.

gillmt
February 3rd, 2010, 10:58 PM
I use OO on my home PC and have downloaded it on my work M$ PC to compare performance. On the whole, I really appreciate all the hard work and thought that has gone into OO - particularly being able to turn documents into PDFs and to open PDFs and make some changes using OO Draw.

Only one thing bugs me about the Linux version of writer - in the Windows version, I can set up a mail merge database from Thunderbird's address book but not in Ubuntu or Fedora.

yester64
February 3rd, 2010, 11:27 PM
what happened to self-criticism? we are all free software advocates here but some of us are not afraid to tell that "Software X" sucks even if it's open source.


Well, i think this is justified to a certain degree.
Case in fact, OO is not perfect, its a project evolving and takes time to completion. But i think it should be clear that this is just another 'i dislike these opensource program and MS is much better' messages.
Fixes do not come in a 1 day turn around and much lesser in the MS world.
One thing i can agree on is, that if you use MSO you know what you got.
Familiar interface (because we grew up with MS anyway) and bloated software. OO is slow (altought it runs fast on my computer) and has its shortcomings. But for the daily task or even for professional use, its good. I mean, i read a lot of peoples comments and its positive. Even the last book i read praised it (oh that was a how MS sucks book).

So its fine to say that something sucks, but its not ok just to say it and not forward the issue to the bug line.
Because if everyone does it like this, it never gets fixed.
There are always issues. Ranting is the funny part to let steam out, but there should be also a cool off period where one takes steps. Hopefully in the right direction.

yester64
February 3rd, 2010, 11:32 PM
Openoffice is fine for some basic home usage despite its maddening shortcomings. But for advanced professional technical reports (which I have to prepare quite often) there's simply nothing to top Microsoft Word.

I have to take those figures with a large grain of salt to say the least, they're are quite hard quantify and I'd say they're largely hearsay more than anything else.
Other than the friends of mine that run some flavor of Linux there's nobody I know that actively uses Openoffice.

There are a lot of people who write book and not using MSO.
Anyway, in germany i know that people use more linux and OO then like here in the US.
72% for MS is not bad either.. they don't need to worry. 3/4 market control.

But i want to make clear, that i am not partisan with one solution.
In my opinion, if the author like to work better with MSO, he should do that. Complaining gets you only so far and does not benefit anyone.

mickie.kext
February 3rd, 2010, 11:40 PM
How do you mean "you do not have a choice"? You need ODF and M$ compatible office suite, do you? OO.o is not the only one. There is Lotus Symphony, there is Go-oo, KOffice...

Stan_1936
February 4th, 2010, 12:07 AM
I use OOo on my Linux machines and MS Office on the Windows ones. OOo is mosltly OK. My only gripe is that if I create a docx in MS Word 2007 and stick some pictures (block diags) into it - then if I open the docx with OOo, the pictures are missing. That precludes any cross platform work on the same doc.

Your only gripe is docx??? Then you don't have any gripes, to be quite honest. Why? Well, for a person that tries to open the docx with Office 2003.......oh wait, YOU CAN'T!!! See, THAT person has a gripe......and it's NOT with OpenOffice.

cb951303
February 4th, 2010, 12:12 AM
Your only gripe is docx??? Then you don't have any gripes, to be quite honest. Why? Well, for a person that tries to open the docx with Office 2003.......oh wait, YOU CAN'T!!! See, THAT person has a gripe......and it's NOT with OpenOffice.

yes you can: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HA100444731033.aspx

I didn't try it myself but I'm guessing it's 100 times better then the openoffice OOXML importer.

rhy7s
February 4th, 2010, 12:26 AM
BTW, "problems" you encountered are just ridiculous. Seriously, creating "space" before a heading with Enter/Return?! C'mon, man.


Formatting heading should be done only using paragraph/text styles.

This does sort of call into question how 'serious' you are about your documents.

Stan_1936
February 4th, 2010, 12:36 AM
yes you can: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HA100444731033.aspx

I didn't try it myself but I'm guessing it's 100 times better then the openoffice OOXML importer.

Equations will become images that cannot be changed. Sorry, but that add-on tool is not guaranteeing compatibility either.

Abdus
February 4th, 2010, 12:50 AM
This does sort of call into question how 'serious' you are about your documents.

No it doesn't. If you are not 'serious' and prepare your documents in any random/crude/careless way, you can't blame the application you're using for not typesetting them how it should be done. :)

cb951303
February 4th, 2010, 01:32 AM
Equations will become images that cannot be changed. Sorry, but that add-on tool is not guaranteeing compatibility either.

not messed up formats, styles and tables are good enough. image style formulas are not that bad either. sure you can't edit them but the document is 100% readable. OOo can't even do that.

JDShu
February 4th, 2010, 01:42 AM
Haven't had any problems with Writer. Calc however, needs alot more work.

jflaker
February 4th, 2010, 01:51 AM
Here is my take:
It isn't perfect, but you have the opportunity to report the bugs or request features and then get an update after such things are fixed all for free.

You can do the same with Microsoft and here is the difference.....once those bugs and features are fixed/created you get to shell out another few hundred $$$ for the joy of the new version.

Please report the bugs and get the application working as you would expect it to work....

Also, for many people, basic letter and document creation, Open Office is more than sufficient and gets the job done.

matthew.ball
February 4th, 2010, 02:01 AM
A few months back, my dad bought a little Asus netbook (Windows XP).
He's a senior academic, and writes *lots* of books, he's currently writing probably his biggest book yet - he has completed 2 chapters, and outlined a further 9. He's already at 400 pages, to give some perspective.

He has a desktop computer where he does the majority of his work, but he travels often, and wanted a portable computer, hence the netbook. His desktop is Windows Vista with Microsoft Office some version (probably '07?).

I was a bit unsure how OpenOffice would handle a document of that size considering the small netbook, but apparently he has had no problems using it. There are a few images included in the document too. Most surprisingly is the lack of conflict between the .docx and opening it in OpenOffice. No problems.

Likewise, my brother who's doing an undergraduate degree in political science at the same university uses a MacBook and OpenOffice without issue, he is so impressed by it he recommends it to everyone. He is definitely not into computers.

My point is, you're ranting like that is the general experience of *anyone* who uses OpenOffice. It's obviously not. You should instead have a look at what you're trying to do, because chances are that's where the problem is.

Personally, auctex and emacs do everything I could possibly want from a word processor.

samh785
February 4th, 2010, 02:59 AM
What version of open office is the OP using, and is he using it on Ubuntu or Windows?

thatguruguy
February 4th, 2010, 02:59 AM
What version of open office is the OP using, and is he using it on Ubuntu or Windows?

Excellent questions.

zerubbabel
February 4th, 2010, 03:29 AM
I use OpenOffice Writer all day every day, and have been for over a year since I switched to Linux, and am very happy with it. Right now I'm running version 3.2 RC4, and it's dramatically faster than even 3.1, and quite stable, in my experience. Every release gets better and faster.

RichardLinx
February 4th, 2010, 03:36 AM
There's a cure! http://www.kde.org/whatiskde/koffice.php
http://www.koffice.org/kword/
http://www.koffice.org/kword/kword-screenshots/

Stan_1936
February 4th, 2010, 03:40 AM
....Right now I'm running version 3.2 RC4....

Any idea when the stable version of 3.2 will be released?

What is their release cycle like?

SirBismuth
February 4th, 2010, 06:53 AM
In my early days with OpenOffice, and also then converting from MS Office, I did not enjoy the OOo interface. But, that was just it, it was a different interface. And of course, some shortcut keys/commands were different.

But that OpenOffice was archaic compared to what OpenOffice is nowadays. It has been my primary, actually ONLY, office suite for years now, and I love it. I have only had limited, very limited, exposure to Office 2007, and don't find the interface very intuitive. But, I imagine that you get used to it, and then won't have issues.

I have had no issues opening .docx and .xlsx files with the latest version of OpenOffice, and editing them as well. The Office 2007 can't even tell that I was NOT using Office as well. Okay, I don't edit complicated documents with multiple images, so don't know there. Haven't had issues with complex .xlsx spreadsheets so far.

B

cb951303
February 4th, 2010, 11:32 AM
I am, too, waiting for koffice. right now it lacks some features that I need but it's on the right track and looks very intuitive.

sideaway
February 4th, 2010, 11:49 AM
I am, too, waiting for koffice. right now it lacks some features that I need but it's on the right track and looks very intuitive.

Sigh, is it just me? Several years ago, before I used linux, I would've read 'koffice' as 'cough-iss' now I read it as 'k-office' ;) Same as every other KDE app.

Well on the OOo thing, I too do not like it, I have MS Office 2007 installed in Wine and it runs fine, only had it crash once on me, and it managed to recover the data. I'm just waiting on a new interface. Please OOo, change the interface, it feels like I'm using Office 98! Some things niggle me, especially in the spreadsheet application, but I think that may be me being used to Excel. I remember reading they were working on a new interface, but I can't find anything on it, nor any updates have come through,

newbie2
February 4th, 2010, 12:01 PM
Any idea when the stable version of 3.2 will be released?

What is their release cycle like?

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ReleaseSchedule


And here are several help forums : http://user.services.openoffice.org/
;)

meho_r
February 4th, 2010, 03:34 PM
Openoffice is fine for some basic home usage despite its maddening shortcomings. But for advanced professional technical reports (which I have to prepare quite often) there's simply nothing to top Microsoft Word.
One word: LaTeX.


I have to take those figures with a large grain of salt to say the least, they're are quite hard quantify and I'd say they're largely hearsay more than anything else.
Other than the friends of mine that run some flavor of Linux there's nobody I know that actively uses Openoffice.
Well, even if you know a million Germans, there are still +80 millions. Figures?

TenPlus1
February 4th, 2010, 04:26 PM
Try AbiWord, it's nice and simple to use...

Mr. Picklesworth
February 4th, 2010, 06:02 PM
One word: LaTeX.

And, if you want a pretty editor (like me!) and are willing to accept some minor incompatibilities with normal LaTeX: Lyx (http://lyx.org)!

Chronon
February 4th, 2010, 08:10 PM
Openoffice is fine for some basic home usage despite its maddening shortcomings. But for advanced professional technical reports (which I have to prepare quite often) there's simply nothing to top Microsoft Word.

I would never use Word to prepare a professional report. Use LaTeX if you want professional output.

megamania
February 4th, 2010, 08:24 PM
It's free, complete office suite. There's no reason to complain. If you don't like it then you can fork out the £80 for MS Office.
After many years on these forums, I'm still amazed to see so many people promoting the "free as in speech" and "free as in beer" philosophy, but instantly forgetting the "free speech" part as soon as criticism arises.

It often sounds like "you're free to say what I like".

Twitch6000
February 4th, 2010, 08:47 PM
I hope this is an ok place to post this. I *must* share my pain.
I have used MS office sometimes, not a lot. It's not all great but its ok i guess.

I have used openoffice the same way.. its been mostly ok. But these days, I have real document work, and I use openoffice. And i realized its the plague.
Seriously, openoffice plain sucks! There are so many bugs I don't bother going to report them anymore, it takes WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more time than to do the ACTUAL WORK i have to do.
The interface is so ugly, inconsistent, full of zillion crap options which do not matter and lack the ones which actually matters.
The auxilliary draw program is a bad joke of its own.

Let's start with a few ugly things:

you're working, typing, and autosave kicks in.. blocking keyboard input, resetting cursor position. YAY.

you're scrolling, and start selecting with shift.. instant rollback to your previous cursor location unless you wait 2 second doing nothing before pressing shift. YAY.

Your stuff get auto capitalized (among other things), so you find out the option menu, go into writer options and select "formatting aids".. only to find out theres no option there to disable it. Oh yay, Google it then! Oh look its in autocorrect, different menu. Logic? what logic? putting all options in "options"? Oh noes god forbid.

Now you want to space out a heading.. click on front, hit return.. bang it makes a new additional heading. ffs.

Going to stop here before my list reach 100 items.
Time lost due to openoffice weirdness, bugs, and illogic options would make me consider buying MS office + windows, unless there's any decent alternative (i don't care if it doesnt have all the functions as long as all the basic stuff WORKS (like scrolling you know.) and it outputs ODT)

Some of those problems sound more like a ubuntu issue.

I say this because I have not have this happen on windows or infact other linux distros.

However on ubuntu and mit both it has happened.

I am mainly pointing at your second problem. For the others I can't say anything.

Chronon
February 4th, 2010, 08:47 PM
After many years on these forums, I'm still amazed to see so many people promoting the "free as in speech" and "free as in beer" philosophy, but instantly forgetting the "free speech" part as soon as criticism arises.

It often sounds like "you're free to say what I like".

That "free" has to do with the software, not with comments on this forum. The source code for OOo is indeed free and you or anyone else can take a look at it and apply changes to a personal build or else submit patches for inclusion to the developers.

Complaints mainly just serve a need for the issuer of the complaint. Constructive criticism should be formatted as a bug report and submitted to the maintainers of the software. If someone just needs to vent then there's a perfectly good Testimonials forum, which seems like a better home for this thread.

megamania
February 4th, 2010, 11:13 PM
That "free" has to do with the software, not with comments on this forum.
I know. But if you say that software should be "free as in speech", then you should try to keep speech free.

lykwydchykyn
February 4th, 2010, 11:43 PM
I know. But if you say that software should be "free as in speech", then you should try to keep speech free.

Whose free speech was curtailed? Rebutting a criticism you disagree with is not curtailing free speech.

Honestly, there is a non-stop flow of rants and gripes on these forums about Ubuntu, Linux, and free software apps in general. It's like people expect to get patted on the back and apologized to, and when they actually get disagreed with they act like they're being repressed.

red_Marvin
February 5th, 2010, 12:59 AM
Whose free speech was curtailed? Rebutting a criticism you disagree with is not curtailing free speech.

Honestly, there is a non-stop flow of rants and gripes on these forums about Ubuntu, Linux, and free software apps in general. It's like people expect to get patted on the back and apologized to, and when they actually get disagreed with they act like they're being repressed.
+1
Also taking "I paid a considerable amount of money for" out of "I expect you to make this pos software I paid a considerable amount of money for work" lessens it's validity as a reasonable demand, and is noticeable on both the whine gauge and the insult meter.
It should be news to nobody that something percieved as an insult is getting harsher responses than constructive criticism and on the topic of free speech; so far this thread has remained open even though this forum is comparable to private property.

yester64
February 5th, 2010, 06:04 AM
This thread is already useless.
The OP stated that he demands an alternative which is not buggy and better or else, he considers to buy MS Office.
Not sure if you can demand anything from free open source. If you buy software you can demand, because you paid it. But your cries will most likely never be heard.

This is one of the things that amazed me always. You buy software and the software pops out to be bad. Now you complain on the support forum.
Perhaps you even talk or write to a customer service rep. But the software will not be altered shortly if at all.
So what you do? You paid money and then you buy another software.

Opensoftware has the same shortfalls in that it has bugs.
I stopped using F-Spot since it is just plain slow. And i found an alternative which works good for me.
The point is, that there are software solutions out there. But the problem is, that you may not get what you are looking for. And then you can cry all day long that you get that on a different OS but why not on Linux.

I think it is just useless to argument over that.
But people like to get aggravated and dig deeper into issues which are not really issues.

Now i am just guessing that the solution is MS Office all along anyway. So why complaining.

kidux
February 5th, 2010, 07:08 AM
+1
Have the same gripe. Have to select "All" and click OK every frigging time. Where is the checkbox that says: "use this setting already, stop bugging me!"

If I want to change my default behaviour, I would use the menu for something like "Delete (special)".

And them saying it's a feature, it's a stooopid feature.

As opposed, say, to MS' "feature" of completely deleting everything in that cell, including formatting and formulas? No thanks! As a heavy spreadsheet and database user, I welcome the question of what to delete.

chewearn
February 5th, 2010, 09:01 AM
As opposed, say, to MS' "feature" of completely deleting everything in that cell, including formatting and formulas? No thanks! As a heavy spreadsheet and database user, I welcome the question of what to delete.

Well, you want to be ask every time, it's your prerogative.

I don't want to be asked every time. That's my prerogative. It's annoying because I know I just pressed delete key. And if I made a mistake, there is the Undo.

As a heavy spreadsheet and database user, I do not welcome feature that stupidly ask the same question over and over again.

Imagine this. I put forward an exaggerate situation to demonstrate how absurd it could be.

You want to enter text into a cell. You press a button. Out comes a dialogbox:

You have just press "A" on your keyboard. Do you mean:
1) small "a" with formatting
2) Capital "A" with formatting
3) small "a" without formatting
4) Capital "A" without formatting
5) "A" to represent a variable in a formula

Select one of the above and press "OK'.
Or none of the above, press "Cancel".

chewearn
February 5th, 2010, 10:07 AM
Alright, I found a workaround, so I take back all I said above. Apologies.

underquark
February 5th, 2010, 10:07 AM
If someone offered you the full MS Office Professional suite - legally - for UK£8.95 (less than US$15) would you buy it? Here in the UK (and maybe elsewhere, for all I know) certain large companies have a deal with MS where employees can download their own copy of MS for an admin fee on the grounds that the company owns a great many licences and some employees take their office work home. Even though I am eligible for this and have a fast machine and run Windows XP in VirtualBox and can dual-boot into XP if I want to, I haven't taken them up on the offer. I use OO because I think it's a good idea and because it works for me.

Grenage
February 5th, 2010, 10:27 AM
certain large companies have a deal with MS where employees can download their own copy of MS for an admin fee on the grounds that the company owns a great many licences and some employees take their office work home

Our company isn't large, but we were offered that deal. For around 100 office licences (admin alone), working out as:

£8k per annum over three years.
Free license expansion for one year.
Free upgrade to new office version when released.
Home use of office for employees.
Some free training on Office apps.

One could argue that you'd have a hard time employing someone for £8k a year that could match the increased productivity gained - but £8k is still a lot of money.

kidux
February 5th, 2010, 10:42 AM
Well, you want to be ask every time, it's your prerogative.

I don't want to be asked every time. That's my prerogative. It's annoying because I know I just pressed delete key. And if I made a mistake, there is the Undo.

As a heavy spreadsheet and database user, I do not welcome feature that stupidly ask the same question over and over again.

Imagine this. I put forward an exaggerate situation to demonstrate how absurd it could be.

You want to enter text into a cell. You press a button. Out comes a dialogbox:

You have just press "A" on your keyboard. Do you mean:
1) small "a" with formatting
2) Capital "A" with formatting
3) small "a" without formatting
4) Capital "A" without formatting
5) "A" to represent a variable in a formula

Select one of the above and press "OK'.
Or none of the above, press "Cancel".

Perhaps, but a simple way around it is to hit the backspace key, rather than delete, which will clear the cell of it's contents.

chewearn
February 5th, 2010, 11:22 AM
Perhaps, but a simple way around it is to hit the backspace key, rather than delete, which will clear the cell of it's contents.

This is the fourth time I got this response about Backspace. I knew about Backspace. But backspace does not delete ALL. I already mentioned this earlier.

And, if you read one post below the one you quote, you would have found out I recanted my statement and apologies. I already found a workaround; (doesn't excuse for having to do a workaround for a frigging Delete), but I am happy my pet peeve is solved.

billenbois
February 5th, 2010, 01:30 PM
@all the so-called free-**** who only make the community look bad

if you take a pick in OOo bugtracker you'll see all the bugs i mention are reported, and not by me. that's the funny thing. Some are actually old.

Here's another one today:
make a custom property, use it and stuff.. close, reopen, change property value.. oh it's not updated. Save the document.. oh it's updated..
scroll down a few pages for another occurence of this property.. oh this one has not been updated (ridiculous isn't it?) insert a space, delete it, save again *while on the page* and it updates. Ofc its reported, too.

Then, "use another tool". Despite having to use OOo by policy there's not much choice. Try to open the ODT document in KOffice, Abiword, you-name-it it's going to look like ****. ODT is far from fully implemented.

Same remark for "buy MS Office". We do not run Windows here. I do not decide what we buy either. But i'm pretty sure you'll come with another "let's close our eyes and tell poster all open source stuff rocks and if he wanna complain, even properly, he can go to hell! no matter how valid points are!" (which is why you get refered as free-***** and make the community look terrible)

@stylying, etc.
my documents actually use styles, formating, etc. It works fine in most cases. You happen to need spacing sometimes without using rulers tho.
Most of the issues are actually not related to that (if the only trouble with OOo was that it create double numbered heading when you hit return i wouldn't care all that much. it's just adding to the moutain of issues)

@others
Indeed, openoffice makes me want to stab myself in the eye repeteadly.


@90% of the people who won't read everything:

again, all issues are already reported, and were already reported before i noticed them. they're just not fixed. I'm not going to fix em myself, hence there's such post poping up. Don't give a *** if it hurts your feelings.

meho_r
February 5th, 2010, 01:47 PM
@billenbois: I'm really curious of all this (I still think you simply should learn how to properly use the application). But, can you provide an example document with notes marking parts that you consider as bugs/issues/etc. and how to reproduce them? Maybe you get constructive advices and help here, not only critics and stuff.


Well, you want to be ask every time, it's your prerogative.

I don't want to be asked every time. That's my prerogative. It's annoying because I know I just pressed delete key. And if I made a mistake, there is the Undo.

As a heavy spreadsheet and database user, I do not welcome feature that stupidly ask the same question over and over again.

Imagine this. I put forward an exaggerate situation to demonstrate how absurd it could be.

You want to enter text into a cell. You press a button. Out comes a dialogbox:

You have just press "A" on your keyboard. Do you mean:
1) small "a" with formatting
2) Capital "A" with formatting
3) small "a" without formatting
4) Capital "A" without formatting
5) "A" to represent a variable in a formula

Select one of the above and press "OK'.
Or none of the above, press "Cancel".

Haha, why has this reminded me of this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA) :D

Ozor Mox
February 5th, 2010, 02:01 PM
free-**** **** free-***** give a ***

Just out of interest, have you had a whiny tantrum with your company's IT support yet instead of a community that, actually, has nothing to do with the subject of said tantrum?

As I said earlier, I have to work with IE6 every day, which is at least a trillion times worse than OpenOffice at doing just about anything, so forgive me if I feel little to no sympathy!

thatguruguy
February 5th, 2010, 02:22 PM
again, all issues are already reported, and were already reported before i noticed them. they're just not fixed. I'm not going to fix em myself, hence there's such post poping up. Don't give a *** if it hurts your feelings.

It doesn't hurt my feelings. I just don't get it. I understand that you have issues. People have tried to help, and the fact that people have tried to help you has apparently made you angry.

It sounds like the ultimate problem here is that you're not being given the tools you want to do your job by the management of your company. It strikes me that you have two real options:

1. Work with management of your company to resolve the issue, or
2. Quit.

There is a third potential option, of course. That option is to man up, stop complaining, and do the best you can with what you've got. I didn't mention that option as one of your "real" options, because I suspect that the likelihood of that happening is zero.

Complaining on this particular forum strikes me as non-productive.

HDave
February 5th, 2010, 03:15 PM
Rants are good sometimes! We all need to blow of some steam...besides the OP did put the word "rant" in the title to warn everybody.

I also happen to agree with the criticism. Everybody here loves open source, but lets just say it out loud.

OpenOffice actually does suck!!!

I use it frequently along with other office tools including MS Office. It is clumsy, ugly, and utterly bug ridden. As soon as you go to do anything slightly sophisticated you realize it's not meant for prime time.

It's a HUGE problem for the Linux community in general because it is a big-time turn-off to regular everyday Windows users who love Firefox/Thunderbird/Pidgin/Songbird and want to see what a total conversion to Linux would be like. They "dip their toes" into Openoffice and run away. Seen it dozens of times...Ouch!

meho_r
February 5th, 2010, 03:51 PM
@HDave: Not in my experience. Actually, I think OOo is great. There are bugs, but nothing too serious (OK, I'm talking about Writer and Calc since I use them only). And real work can be done with them, believe it or not. It comes as life-saver to not one ex-MSO users. And, again, for doing REAL work. After using it for some time, I heard only superlatives from them. So, stop generalizing and try to use: "It sucks for me" or similar expressions.

Not @HDave, but in general: If you had a hard time with an app, it doesn't actually mean it sucks. It may be because of your installation, OS, or numerous other reasons that you have problems. Ignorance of how to properly use the application at stake (especially if that app is a very complex software piece like OOo certainly is) is most highly ranked among them. Not to mention expectations of huge number of users that OOo should behave and work in MS-way. So, stop complaining and learn the app (for the third time in this thread).

cb951303
February 5th, 2010, 04:13 PM
@meho_r: by real work most of us mean complicated documents, such as reports that have nested headings, table of contents, charts and tables, maybe some forumlas. I assure you I know how to use openoffice and for this purpose IT SUCKS.

kahumba
February 5th, 2010, 05:06 PM
The guy who started this topic is correct, but (unfortunately) the topic won't solve his problems.

OpenOffice is spiced with lots of poor and childish decisions. Not to mention the ugly interface.
It has 2 historical problems:
1) has been developed by Sun Microsystems
2) has been declared open source by Sun but Sun still controlled it and did a bad job again and pissed off a lot of contributors.

Explanation on #1: Sun never had a clue how to develop desktop stuff that people would really like (desktop Java is still not ok and only lately slightly improved, flash killed the Java applets without any effort), they were only good at server related stuff.

The problem now is, that Oracle which acquired Sun is also a server-oriented company and has no clue about doing good desktop applications, all it cares about is clouds, databases etc.

I strongly believe that unless the likes from Canonical jump in (won't happen soon/ever) and actually start improving OpenOffice there won't be a good replacement for M$ office in the next 10 years.

Jackelope
February 5th, 2010, 05:07 PM
I think most of us are on ubuntu, meaning we actually use a patched version of OO, like GoOO. The OP should check out Go Open Office. Its better.

cb951303
February 5th, 2010, 05:14 PM
The guy who started this topic is correct, but (unfortunately) the topic won't solve his problems.

OpenOffice is spiced with lots of poor and childish decisions. Not to mention the ugly interface.
It has 2 historical problems:
1) has been developed by Sun Microsystems
2) has been declared open source by Sun but Sun still controlled it and did a bad job again and pissed off a lot of contributors.

Explanation on #1: Sun never had a clue how to develop desktop stuff that people would really like (desktop Java is still not ok and only lately slightly improved, flash killed the Java applets without any effort), they were only good at server related stuff.

The problem now is, that Oracle which acquired Java is also a server-oriented company and has no clue about doing good desktop applications, all it cares about is clouds, databases etc.

I strongly believe that unless the likes from Canonical jump in (won't happen soon/ever) and actually start improving OpenOffice there won't be a good replacement for M$ office.

good points.

we will have a good replacement for ms office in the very near future: koffice 2.3 (or maybe 2.4). but I'm afraid we'll have to install some kde libraries in order to make it work on a gnome system which really sucks.
it will have a windows version though (as all kde 4 applications) and that's actually a good news because most of the office users are on windows machines and it will help us getting rid of OOXML.

edit1: btw, there is also the cross-platform, proprietary and free(as in beer) lotus symphony office suite that uses ODF as its native file format. the latest version still had the unresizable side pane issue which made it very hard to use on linux systems but I'm hopefull for the future versions.

edit2: I wish abiword and gnumeric would go native ODF but both projects stated that they wont. they probably have good reasons but it would be nice nonetheless.

red_Marvin
February 5th, 2010, 05:29 PM
@meho_r: by real work most of us mean complicated documents, such as reports that have nested headings, table of contents, charts and tables, maybe some forumlas. I assure you I know how to use openoffice and for this purpose IT SUCKS.

If you are able to generate the charts in a dedicated program, LaTeX fills the other stated requirements, but you would have to be able to cope with a paradigm shift.

cb951303
February 5th, 2010, 05:34 PM
If you are able to generate the charts in a dedicated program, LaTeX fills the other stated requirements, but you would have to be able to cope with a paradigm shift.

I want to learn latex just didn't have time for it yet. one thing that scares me tough is the "interoperability" issues. it's great tool if you're going to publish documents in pdf format but if you need it in an editable format for others, it's just as useless as abiword (file format-wise)

Mr. Picklesworth
February 5th, 2010, 05:37 PM
The problem now is, that Oracle which acquired Sun is also a server-oriented company and has no clue about doing good desktop applications, all it cares about is clouds, databases etc.

I strongly believe that unless the likes from Canonical jump in (won't happen soon/ever) and actually start improving OpenOffice there won't be a good replacement for M$ office in the next 10 years.

The rumour mill suspects that Oracle will focus in on the web-based version of OpenOffice. Seems reasonable, since it fits a bit better with their thing for servers and also has a lot of money-making opportunity.

OpenOffice's code base is notorious for being difficult to figure out, so unless Canonical can hire a lot of existing OO.org developers, I think it would be a bad idea to throw that much support at it. A better notion would be to support KOffice, which is looking really good, uses a native UI toolkit (Qt, granted, not GTK+, but a lot closer than that thing OpenOffice uses), is easy to use, flexible, not an MS Office 2003 clone, and has real tangible integrity in its design.

meho_r
February 5th, 2010, 05:46 PM
@meho_r: by real work most of us mean complicated documents, such as reports that have nested headings, table of contents, charts and tables, maybe some forumlas. I assure you I know how to use openoffice and for this purpose IT SUCKS.

I meant the same. If you were following the thread, I said I prepared couple of books for the press in OpenOffice.org (don't ask why; and I am aware that you CANNOT get high-quality output with any of Word Processing apps, be it OOo or MSO or any other, no difference). I worked on couple of thesis (social sciences) as well some other materials which included all stuff you mentioned. OOo is up to the task. And I do pay much attention to create well structured document using all advanced features OOo provides. It sucks no more than MSO sucks or any other Word Processor does. On the contrary, it sucks less than any of those. And if you're picky about quality of output, you won't use any of them anyway.


I want to learn latex just didn't have time for it yet. one thing that scares me tough is the "interoperability" issues. it's great tool if you're going to publish documents in pdf format but if you need it in an editable format for others, it's just as useless as abiword (file format-wise)

Formatted output is presented through .dvi and .pdf (can be converted to, e.g., .odt, .html, .txt and some other formats, but with some limitations). "Editable" format should be defined. .tex files are simple text files, even Notepad can read them. But, of course, source file isn't the same as final output files since LaTeX is a markup language. It is worth mentioning that in scientific world, it is defacto standard. And regarding quality of output, even Adobe InDesign is just a little toy comparing to the power of (La)TeX.

lykwydchykyn
February 5th, 2010, 05:48 PM
I hope you guys are right about KOffice but I don't share the optimism. I've been watching it's development for years but it never seems to come together unfortunately.

I love KDE and working in QT, but every time I check up on Koffice some part of it seems fatally broken.

If it *does* come together it'll blow OpenOffice away, but IMHO it'd take someone with a business use angle coming in and giving development a shot in the arm.

cb951303
February 5th, 2010, 06:09 PM
I hope you guys are right about KOffice but I don't share the optimism. I've been watching it's development for years but it never seems to come together unfortunately.

I love KDE and working in QT, but every time I check up on Koffice some part of it seems fatally broken.

If it *does* come together it'll blow OpenOffice away, but IMHO it'd take someone with a business use angle coming in and giving development a shot in the arm.

give it time. office suites are really extensive applications. koffice 2.0 has been released in 2009 for testers and developers only. the current version 2.1 is the first stable release which lacks some important parts but usable.

when KDE 4 was released it was very buggy and unstable but by the time KDE 4.3 was released it was pretty stable and ready for everyday use. KDE 4.4 will be even more stable.

by the same logic, I guess Koffice 2.3 or 2.4 will be ready for consumers. Koffice 2.2 is scheduled for May 2010, 2.3 will probably be ready around early/mid 2011.

lykwydchykyn
February 5th, 2010, 07:02 PM
give it time. office suites are really extensive applications. koffice 2.0 has been released in 2009 for testers and developers only. the current version 2.1 is the first stable release which lacks some important parts but usable.

when KDE 4 was released it was very buggy and unstable but by the time KDE 4.3 was released it was pretty stable and ready for everyday use. KDE 4.4 will be even more stable.

by the same logic, I guess Koffice 2.3 or 2.4 will be ready for consumers. Koffice 2.2 is scheduled for May 2010, 2.3 will probably be ready around early/mid 2011.

Well I do sincerely hope you're right; I'm not complaining, just not optimistic. I've been checking out Koffice since about 1.4, and it's just never quite achieved the completeness one could hope for.

The good news is that Nokia seems to have some plans for using KOffice on smartphones and is putting some development resources behind it; that may be the "shot in the arm" I was hoping for.

cb951303
February 5th, 2010, 07:18 PM
Well I do sincerely hope you're right; I'm not complaining, just not optimistic. I've been checking out Koffice since about 1.4, and it's just never quite achieved the completeness one could hope for.


well the problem is koffice 1.x and koffice 2.x are completely different projects. koffice 2.x was re-written in order to make the suite use ODF as its native file format and QT4 as the gui toolkit. that's probably why you never saw it complete :)

Dragonbite
February 5th, 2010, 07:47 PM
IBM's Lotus Symphony 3 beta 2 (http://symphony.lotus.com/software/lotus/symphony/SymphonyBetaHome.nsf/home), which is based on an older OpenOffice but with a different GUI, is out for Ubuntu, Fedora, SUSE, Windows and maybe Mac now.

When I tried it before, it was pretty slow but the user interface (UI) was nicer than OpenOffice's.

cb951303
February 5th, 2010, 08:03 PM
IBM's Lotus Symphony 3 beta 2 (http://symphony.lotus.com/software/lotus/symphony/SymphonyBetaHome.nsf/home), which is based on an older OpenOffice but with a different GUI, is out for Ubuntu, Fedora, SUSE, Windows and maybe Mac now.

When I tried it before, it was pretty slow but the user interface (UI) was nicer than OpenOffice's.

why did they go from 1.3 to 3_
I'll definitely try this.

bailout
February 5th, 2010, 08:04 PM
A better notion would be to support KOffice, which is looking really good, uses a native UI toolkit (Qt, granted, not GTK+, but a lot closer than that thing OpenOffice uses), is easy to use, flexible, not an MS Office 2003 clone, and has real tangible integrity in its design.

I haven't tried the latest koffice but did try previous kde3 versions. The main problems were that it doesn't handle ms office formats at all and afaik there are no plans to do so. Also the previous versions I tried didnt even handle open doc format in the same way as OOo. It is pointless having an open standard format if documents created in it with one app aren't compatible with another app supposedly using the same format.

I have heard several times that the OOo code is a mess and is very difficult to work on. Koffice has the advntage that it is starting from scratch. I know that krita devs claimed it was easier for them to develop krits to do things like handle 16bit images than add that functionality to gimp which has been promising it for years. However, OOo and gimp are both accepted as the main oss projects in their field and it would be difficult for koffice or krita to gain widespread acceptance even if they were 'better'; especcially given the bias against kde apps from a lot of gnome users.

I suspect that OOo will remain the linux office suite despite its problems and just hope that Oracle and IBM get together and speed up development.

llawwehttam
February 5th, 2010, 08:07 PM
Just to reply to the original post, you haven't paid anything for open-office, if you don't like it why complain, they don't owe you anything.

Dragonbite
February 5th, 2010, 08:07 PM
I haven't tried the latest koffice but did try previous kde3 versions. The main problems were that it doesn't handle ms office formats at all and afaik there are no plans to do so.

I think when I last tried it, it could open MS Office file formats, but could not save it as such.

Now, isn't Ubuntu actually using Go-OO, which is Novell's tweaked OpenOffice and not the core (Sun) variety?

lykwydchykyn
February 5th, 2010, 08:23 PM
I haven't tried the latest koffice but did try previous kde3 versions. The main problems were that it doesn't handle ms office formats at all and afaik there are no plans to do so. Also the previous versions I tried didnt even handle open doc format in the same way as OOo. It is pointless having an open standard format if documents created in it with one app aren't compatible with another app supposedly using the same format.


http://www.koffice.org/news/nokia-announces-ms-office-2007-import-filters-for-koffice/

lykwydchykyn
February 5th, 2010, 08:26 PM
Now, isn't Ubuntu actually using Go-OO, which is Novell's tweaked OpenOffice and not the core (Sun) variety?

Yes, as are most other major distros.

cb951303
February 5th, 2010, 08:49 PM
I've just tried symphony 3 beta 2 with a 30+ page *.ODT document with formulas, tables, images, custom formats, table of content and charts. There are couple of glitches, nothing fatal, overall the renderer is 99.9% accurate.

I must say it's a lot faster to scroll on the document than OpenOffice.

Unfortunately it has the same ****** formula editor as OpenOffice (not really important for a lot of people).

Also, finally the side pane resize works. I can finally see the controls. The big side pane font issue is also fixed.

Although the user interface has some rendering glitches overall it's responsive and has good design taste

I must add the document I tried crashed when I tried to edit a formula so there is still room for bug hunting :)

I'm really hopeful for this software and I couldn't care less about it being closed-source :P

underquark
February 5th, 2010, 09:27 PM
Ah, well. Played around a bit and discovered that [Ctrl]-x deletes things nicely and I've written a macro for copy and paste values only so OO Calc has the facility for workarounds. Not about to spend my £8.95 on MS Office just yet.

texaswriter
February 7th, 2010, 10:45 PM
Nobody has said that feedback is bad... It's just kind of annoying when people come up and post about the stupid things they did and the results they got... Don't use a program the right way and you are going to get bad results. Oh, but do we turn that person away. No, we suggest a course of action to help them. Are they going to listen, sometimes not!!!. What do you do when somebody started off with stupidity and continued on that same path. What's that called? Garbage in Gargabe OUT.

So, OpenOffice is the plague, I mean, really where did that come from.

OO3.x.x. is pretty damn good. It has almost identical functionality, program for program, as MS Office. It's free. It doesn't have what some people call "the damn ribbon"... It's more customizable than MS Office. I mean, somebody had to make a fricking hack just to get rid of the ribbon [BTW MS patched that hack out so it doesn't even work now. MS WILL tell you how to use THEIR software].

Now, nothing is ever perfect for all people, but I would never start a thread with that type of attitude. OO is free and a DAMN good program for being free. I am getting to the poing where I won't even use MS Office for anything but checking for conversion compatibility when uploading or submitting MS office format documents. And I use .pdf as much as possible!!!

All I need to do is find a great program for doing graphing in and EXCEL will no longer be used even for my stats homework [ps I purposely don't use stats programs because they do all the work, just thought i'd post that...]

Anyways, bugs, comments, suggestions, should always be welcomed... but not ridiculous unconstructive criticism...

Even when I criticize MS, I am very specific about what I don't like. CONCEIVABLY, they could start CARING and actually implement fixes... They did "care" a little bit in releasing Windows 7, though IMO, Windows 7 is JUST A VLITE'D version of Vista....

Anyways, take care AND HAPPY SUPERBOWL XLIV!!!!!:popcorn: