Drop Haiti's Debt.

[handy]

Avaaz members have so far given a million dollars to Haiti, but there is something even more important that needs to be done; & you CAN do it; we REALLY need you to make it happen & it will only take you a minute to help:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/haiti_cancel_the_debt_13/?vl

[Edit:] Here are the dollar donation figures:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stand_with_haiti/

[Xbehave]

http://www.avaaz.org/en/haiti_cancel_the_debt_7/?cl=457749159&v=5281
there are dots in the link in OP,

[handy]

http://www.avaaz.org/en/haiti_cancel_the_debt_7/?cl=457749159&v=5281
there are dots in the link in OP,

I just copied the post link & all from ostalk.org & it pasted it here. This hasn't happened before.

Thanks for pointing it out, I had just copied the URL from the linked to page & was about to replace it anyway. :)

[KiwiNZ]

Fixed

[handy]

Fixed

Yes, my error Mike, I copied the entire post from elsewhere & the link became corrupt in the process.

Sorry for the time I consumed. ;)

[witeshark17]

It would never be reasonable to expect Haiti to repay old debts considering...

[kernelhaxor]

Signed it. Count as of now: 195,761 have signed the petition.

[handy]

Signed it. Count as of now: 195,761 have signed the petition.

I expect that there will be many more than 200,000 sign this one. :)

[Methuselah]

From wikipedia article:



Haiti’s legacy of debt began shortly after gaining independence from France in 1804. In 1825, France, with warships at the ready, demanded Haiti “compensate” France for its loss of a slave colony. In exchange for French recognition of Haiti as a sovereign republic, France demanded payment of 150 million francs (modern equivalent of $21 billion).[1]


Debt repudiation by Haiti even in the event that debt is not 'forgiven' is long overdue.

[judge jankum]

Just signed, thanks for posting the link....:)

[Gallahhad]

Signed; I hope this becomes a mega thread.

[ankspo71]

I just signed it too

[~sHyLoCk~]

I expect that there will be many more than 200,000 sign this one. :)

Signed! It has crossed 200,000. As of now 206,737!

[handy]

Signed! It has crossed 200,000. As of now 206,737!

219,638 when I just looked, the new target is set for 300K. :)

[matthew.ball]

Done, thanks for the link handy.

[wewantutopia]

Signed and posted on facebook

[handy]

Signed and posted on facebook

I don't use facebook, will it find many viewers there?

[wewantutopia]

It has the possibility of being scene by many people because it is easy for things to spread virally there.

[LowSky]

I'm not going to sign it. People should be responsible for money they borrow.

Or how about this I'll sign the petition if someone agrees to pay or wipe my total of outstanding debts.

[whiskeylover]

I'm not going to sign it. People should be responsible for money they borrow.

Or how about this I'll sign the petition if someone agrees to pay or wipe my total of outstanding debts.

It was mostly the government that borrowed the money, not the tragedy stricken citizens.

Besides that, cool story, bro.

[Frak]

I'm not going to sign it. People should be responsible for money they borrow.

Or how about this I'll sign the petition if someone agrees to pay or wipe my total of outstanding debts.
It probably won't be our decision anyhow. The IMF has recognized Haiti as an impoverished nation stricken by tragedy, and is now eligible for external debt cancellation, lowering the public debt from ~$330 per person. The average annual income for each person is only ~$1,900. The debts come from past corrupt leaders and current problems paying import costs. Haiti imports roughly $2 billion, but only exports around $500 million.

[SuperSonic4]

Did someone say Politics?

[handy]

I'm not going to sign it. People should be responsible for money they borrow.

Or how about this I'll sign the petition if someone agrees to pay or wipe my total of outstanding debts.

Do you know where the debt came from LowSky?

As Methuselah quoted from the wiki earlier in this thread:

Haiti’s legacy of debt began shortly after gaining independence from France in 1804. In 1825, France, with warships at the ready, demanded Haiti “compensate” France for its loss of a slave colony. In exchange for French recognition of Haiti as a sovereign republic, France demanded payment of 150 million francs (modern equivalent of $21 billion).[1]

If you think that that debt, & the huge effect it has had ever since on the Haitian's is fair, well all I can say is that it takes all kinds. :confused:

Anyway, let us try to keep this thread open, for the potential of helping the Haitian people that it does have.

[JDShu]

Did someone say Politics?

I agree.

And to illustrate how political it is: How about we forgive the debt of all the less developed countries, make developed countries open up agricultural markets, allow free flow of labor around the world, and let poor countries grow fledgling industries.

Then maybe we wouldn't all be signing a petition because of a disaster that shouldn't have caused so many casualties.

[handy]

+1

& keeping the thread open. :)

[gletob]

EDIT:

Know what never mind. I disagree with this, that is my opinion, and you won't change my views.

A nation that can't support itself in a non crisis time should not exist, and the free market should not be interfered with so much as it is today.

[handy]

After having lived with my own stupidity all of my life, I am really surprised when something stupid I do does actually surprise me. :)

Similarly, after living well over 50 years in this world that is mostly run by & inhabited by so many selfish & short sighted people, I am still surprised by the examples of it that I see around me.

Very sad really.

[Frak]

My family has been in a not so great position lately. Maybe our debt should be dropped.

Do you also have no home, no food, and have shrapnel from debris lodged in your leg?

[samjh]

Although I don't agree with simply wiping debt for the sake of it, I've signed it for compassion's sake.


Do you also have no home, no food, and have shrapnel from debris lodged in your leg?

I don't think that was his/her point.

Rather, the question is: if Haiti should have its debts wiped because of the government's own incompetence, why not ordinary people with debts?

Wiping out Haiti's debt is unlikely to relieve the suffering of its people in any significant way. It will merely give Haiti's incompetent and corrupt officials more money to play with.

[handy]

In the interest of the longevity of this thread, I am applying self restraint. ](*,)

[KiwiNZ]

The selfishness I see on this Forum sometimes astounds me and deeply saddens me. I need a break.

[Frak]

The selfishness I see on this Forum sometimes astounds me and deeply saddens me. I need a break.
I'm with ya, brother.

[Kai69]

Sighned 253,254:p

[JDShu]

In the interest of the longevity of this thread, I am applying self restraint. ](*,)

I know how you feel.

[thatguruguy]

Why is this not considered a political discussion?

[KiwiNZ]

Why is this not considered a political discussion?

Its regarding calling on the IMF etc to drop Haiti's debt as part of the aid packages

[thatguruguy]

Its regarding calling on the IMF etc to drop Haiti's debt as part of the aid packages

I understand that. I'm not being confrontational nor obtuse. Nor am I suggesting that doing this is a bad thing. It's just that this issue strikes me as a political issue, and one that isn't directly related to free and open source issues.

[KiwiNZ]

I understand that. I'm not being confrontational nor obtuse. Nor am I suggesting that doing this is a bad thing. It's just that this issue strikes me as a political issue, and one that isn't directly related to free and open source issues.

I agree

it is being watched closely. We would like to keep it going while it is relevant given the subject matter.

[~sHyLoCk~]

This may not be a significant impact, maybe signing this petition is also pointless, but why should that stop you in trying to spend a few minutes in front of your computer to even "insignificantly" try and help out? It's not about charity but humanity as well. So your point charity begins at home does not apply! Have a heart.

PS- I didn't quote anybody to prevent flamewars, I think this topic should be kept open.

[thatguruguy]

I agree

it is being watched closely. We would like to keep it going while it is relevant given the subject matter.

Fair enough.

[Mahngiel]

How about we forgive the debt of all the less developed countries, make developed countries open up agricultural markets

-1
you're a fool

[Frak]

-1
you're a fool
Name calling doesn't solve anything.

[JDShu]

-1
you're a fool

While I would love to take the credit, unfortunately I'm not smart enough. I recently read about it from Joseph Stiglitz's book "Making Globalization Work". If you don't know who that is, look it up on wikipedia or something. Ad hominem? Sure, I'm not ashamed.

[Frak]

While I would love to take the credit, unfortunately I'm not smart enough. I recently read about it from Joseph Stiglitz's book "Making Globalization Work". If you don't know who that is, look it up on wikipedia or something. Ad hominem? Sure, I'm not ashamed.
No, JDShu, you disagreed so therefore you are not smart enough to follow this case, and I -1 you for that. Grumble grumble.

[JDShu]

No, JDShu, you disagreed so therefore you are not smart enough to follow this case, and I -1 you for that. Grumble grumble.

awww :(

[KiwiNZ]

Can we please keep this on topic and friendly . The topic is important .

Thank you

[JDShu]

Sorry Kiwinz! I signed it btw :)

But in all seriousness, I think we should all think about helping our fellow men around the world. We had a tsunami in 2004, a hurricane in 2005, an earthquake in 2008, and now we have another earthquake. All these events could have resulted in less deaths if the places had been more developed :( What happens in the future? Another calamity, another donation drive and more needless deaths?

Tried to keep it as unpolitical as possible... mods tell me if its unacceptable and I'll mod it.

[Frak]

sorry kiwinz! I signed it btw :)

but in all seriousness, i think we should all think about helping our fellow men around the world. We had a tsunami in 2004, a hurricane in 2005, an earthquake in 2008, and now we have another earthquake. All these events could have resulted in less deaths if the places had been more developed :( what happens in the future? Another calamity, another donation drive and more needless deaths?

Tried to keep it as unpolitical as possible... Mods tell me if its unacceptable and i'll mod it.
+1

[Mahngiel]

We had a tsunami in 2004, a hurricane in 2005, an earthquake in 2008, and now we have another earthquake.


Blame Global Warming

Blame Canada


All these events could have resulted in less deaths if the places had been more developed

You calling New Orleans undeveloped? You can't blame anything but mother nature. She killed the dinosaurs, after all.

[Frak]

You calling New Orleans undeveloped? You can't blame anything but mother nature. She killed the dinosaurs, after all.
I've been to Louisiana, and no, it really isn't as developed in a lot of areas. A lot of people lived in shacks, and fished the swamp for a living.

[JDShu]

You calling New Orleans undeveloped?

Yes. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9163091/)

[handy]

@Mahngiel: You just made it to my ignore list.

Congratulations, in over 4 years of using this forum, you are the 3rd person to get there.

You made it due to your insensitive, selfish, immaturity.

At least you have a chance of growing out of it.

Good luck & goodbye.

[JDShu]

ah.. handy, while I understand your sentiments, you could have just closed the thread :(

[JDShu]

@Frak: btw, I'm surprised I actually agree with you on something... feel like I disagree with you alot :P

[KiwiNZ]

You calling New Orleans undeveloped? You can't blame anything but mother nature. She killed the dinosaurs, after all.

What matters is those affected.

I have taken deceased babies from the water, I have buried entire villages. I have held a man for hours while tries to comprehend that everyone he has ever known is gone for ever.

These are people like you and me that are suffering more than you will ever know.

That is what matters.

Those people need help irrespective of their past, their religion , their politics.

Now , leave the petty bickering out of this thread.

[handy]

ah.. handy, while I understand your sentiments, you could have just closed the thread :(

No way.

I want people to sign the petition.

The last thing I want (in this forum) is for this thread to be closed.

The first thing I want (everywhere) is for people to be humane to humanity, & all other forms of life.

[Edit:] I didn't express it right at first so I rewrote it, more than once... ;)

[phrostbyte]

Haiti needs a lot more then debt cancellation, but signed. It's going to happen anyways.

[Frak]

Haiti needs a lot more then debt cancellation, but signed. It's going to happen anyways.
True. The IMF isn't one to go "Well, they all say we should!". They look at the books, see if they meet the conditions, and do the necessary actions. They don't really respond to petitions.

[handy]

True. The IMF isn't one to go "Well, they all say we should!". They look at the books, see if they meet the conditions, and do the necessary actions. They don't really respond to petitions.

Even so, if there are hundreds of thousands of signatures, it still sends a message from the people. Politicians know that they need to be aware of what is in the mind of the people, if they loose sight of that it can be the end of them.

Over 1.5 million signed by far the largest petition ever, which was requesting a COP15 commitment that actually achieved something. (The request was somewhat more articulate than that. :))

I too think that the IMF will do the right thing for Haiti, regarding their debt.

[Frak]

Even so, if there are hundreds of thousands of signatures, it still sends a message from the people. Politicians know that they need to be aware of what is in the mind of the people, if they loose sight of that it can be the end of them.

Over 1.5 million signed by far the largest petition ever, which was requesting a COP15 commitment that actually achieved something. (The request was somewhat more articulate than that. :))

I too think that the IMF will do the right thing for Haiti, regarding their debt.
Well, I'm just considering that this hasn't been the first time IMF has dropped Haiti's debts, and it most certainly won't be the last.

[handy]

Well, I'm just considering that this hasn't been the first time IMF has dropped Haiti's debts, and it most certainly won't be the last.

Just so long as they do it now, when it is so important.

[dmn_clown]

Can we please keep this on topic and friendly . The topic is important .

Thank you

Do you really believe an online petition is going to convince the IMF to do anything? Or is this just about relieving the guilt you feel from all of those products you've purchased that were made in Haitian sweatshops and at the same time getting a sense of empowerment by censoring the inconvenient truth of the matter?

[Perfect Storm]

/signed

[handy]

Do you really believe an online petition is going to convince the IMF to do anything? Or is this just about relieving the guilt you feel from all of those products you've purchased that were made in Haitian sweatshops and at the same time getting a sense of empowerment by censoring the inconvenient truth of the matter?

Many of us believe in standing up & being counted.

[handy]

287,237 have already signed the petition!

[~sHyLoCk~]

BUMP!:popcorn:

EDIT: Wow that was trashed in Arch forum :P sorry handy.

[handy]

BUMP!:popcorn:

EDIT: Wow that was trashed in Arch forum :P sorry handy.

My fault really, I hadn't realised that they have a very strict policy on thread topics outside of IT, that may be controversial.

It didn't last long though did it! :)

I sent Allan an email explaining & apologising; I should have known, it's like not being aware of the CoC here.

[bsharp]

Why is everyone who thinks that canceling the debt is a bad idea automatically a bad guy? What does canceling a national debt have anything to do with the amount of compassion a person has? No one is saying we shouldn't send food and medical aid to them, but how would forgiving the national debt help the people of Haiti?

Haiti's government is a pile of corruption (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60Q0JI20100127). When someone becomes powerful enough, they execute/overthrow the president and start a new dictatorship. Here's a list of all of the Haitian presidents since 1804 and how they left office:

Jean Jacques Dessalines 1804 - 1806 assassinated
Henri Christophe 1807 - 1820 suicide
Alexander Petion 1807 - 1818 died in office
Jean Pierre Boyer 1818 - 1843 overthrown
Riviere Riviere-Herard 1843 - 1844 overthrown
Philippe Guerrier 1844 - 1845 died in office
Jean Louis Pierrot 1845 - 1846 overthrown
Jean Baptiste Riche 1847 - 1847 died in office
Faustin Soulouque 1847 - 1859 overthrown
Fabre Nicholas Geffrard 1859 - 1867 overthrown
Sylvain Salnave 1867 - 1869 executed
Saget Nissage 1870 - 1874 full term
Michel Domingue 1874 - 1876 overthrown
Canal Boisrond 1876 - 1879 overthrown
Lysius Felicite Salomon 1879 - 1888 overthrown
Francois Legitime 1888 - 1889 overthrown
Florvil Hyppolite 1889 - 1896 died in office
Tiresias Simon Sam 1896 - 1902 full term
Alexis Nord 1902 - 1908 overthrown
Antoine Simon 1908 - 1911 overthrown
Cincinnatus Leconte 1911 - 1912 died in office
Tancrede Auguste 1912 - 1913 died in office
Michel Oreste 1913 - 1914 overthrown
Oreste Zamor 1914 overthrown
Davilmar Theodore 1914 - 1915 overthrown
Vilbrun Sam 1915 assassinated
Sudre Dartiguevave 1915 - 1922 full term (1st US Occupation)
Louis Borno 1922 - 1930 full term (1st US Occupation
Eugene Roy 1930 full term (1st US occupation)
Sternio Vincent 1930 - 1941 full term (occupation until 1934)
Élie Lescot 1941 - 1946 overthrown
Franck Lavaud 1946
Dumarsais Estimé 1946 - 1950 overthrown
Paul Eugène Magloire 1950 - 1956 overthrown
Joseph Nemours Pierre-Louis* 1956 - 1957
Franck Sylvain* 1957
Executive Government Council 1957
Antonio Thrasybule Kebreau
(Chairman of the Military Council) 1957
François Duvalier 1957 - 1971 died in office
Jean-Claude Duvalier 1971 - 1986 overthrown
Henri Namphy 1986 - 1987 full term
Lesli Manigat 1988 overthrown
Henri Namphy 1988 - 1989 overthrown
Prosper Avril 1989 - 1990 overthrown
Etha Pascal-Trouillot* 1990 - 1991 full term
Jean-Bertrand Aristide 1991 overthrown
Joseph Nerette* 1991 - 1992
Marc Bazin (acting prime minister) 1992 - 1993
Jean-Bertrand Aristide 1993 - 1994
Émile Jonassaint* 1994
Jean-Bertrand Aristide 1994 - 1996 finished remainder of term
Rene Preval 1996 - 2000 full term
Jean-Bertrand Aristide 2000 - 2004 overthrown
Boniface Alexandre* 2004 - 2006
René Garcia Préval 2006 -

[*Provisional Leader]

Canceling their debt would be like giving money to a homeless person in the fact that you have NO idea if they will buy drugs/alcohol instead of food. If this happens there will just be more money the gov't officials can pocket. Help the Haitian people with food, water, clothes, medicine, but don't help the government by eliminating their debt.

[handy]

Everyone doesn't think all that stuff.

We just think that now is the perfect time to help one of the poorest countries on Earth. Getting rid of that debt is surely a great way to assist these people during there recovery from such a devastating crisis.

If you don't agree, that is fine, just don't turn this thread into an argument please?

[bsharp]

A drunk person will not get better if you give him more money for his drinking, and a country that ranks #147 on the Index of Economic Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom_2003-2006) with no signs of improvement deserves to remain poor. I just wish there was more earthquakes in Cuba and North Korea as well.

This is where I would draw the line. You can't write off a whole country because they "deserve to be poor." It's the tyrannic leaders who should be punished, not the common people. Don't give them money to buy what they need, give them what they need.

You shouldn't wish destruction on any innocents (as you say about Cuba and NK), and there are certainly plenty of those in both of those countries.

[handy]

296,510 have already signed the petition!

I'm off to bed, looks like I'll get to see the 300k mark cracked for breakfast. :)

[Grenage]

My thoughts echo those of bsharp, not to mention that petitions achieve absolutely nothing.

[SuperSonic4]

Why don't we give our money to Washington (DC) as the US is controlling the airport and port

[handy]

302,284 :d

[JDShu]

Why is everyone who thinks that canceling the debt is a bad idea automatically a bad guy? What does canceling a national debt have anything to do with the amount of compassion a person has? No one is saying we shouldn't send food and medical aid to them, but how would forgiving the national debt help the people of Haiti?

Haiti's government is a pile of corruption (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60Q0JI20100127). When someone becomes powerful enough, they execute/overthrow the president and start a new dictatorship. Here's a list of all of the Haitian presidents since 1804 and how they left office:


Canceling their debt would be like giving money to a homeless person in the fact that you have NO idea if they will buy drugs/alcohol instead of food. If this happens there will just be more money the gov't officials can pocket. Help the Haitian people with food, water, clothes, medicine, but don't help the government by eliminating their debt.

Quite simply, its necessary but not sufficient.

[Frak]

Why is everyone who thinks that canceling the debt is a bad idea automatically a bad guy? What does canceling a national debt have anything to do with the amount of compassion a person has? No one is saying we shouldn't send food and medical aid to them, but how would forgiving the national debt help the people of Haiti?

Haiti's government is a pile of corruption (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60Q0JI20100127). When someone becomes powerful enough, they execute/overthrow the president and start a new dictatorship. Here's a list of all of the Haitian presidents since 1804 and how they left office:


Canceling their debt would be like giving money to a homeless person in the fact that you have NO idea if they will buy drugs/alcohol instead of food. If this happens there will just be more money the gov't officials can pocket. Help the Haitian people with food, water, clothes, medicine, but don't help the government by eliminating their debt.
Say a Haitian person wants to buy a foreign good. If their money is engrossed in national debt, the money is worth very little. If the debt is canceled, the money now has a higher worth. This can help Haitians buy the good they need, as individual, group, and government levels.

[sdowney717]

Tough living in Haiti. Many Haitians live in constant fear of Thuggish gangs. I think the world community should somehow take charge of Haiti, rebuild it right, get rid of the corruption, but I dont know how this can be done. Simply mindlessly throwing money at this wont fix it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8OvnvuQcRA&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[handy]

I really don't think that people will be walking around with bags of cash giving wads of it to native Haitian's.

There will be co-ordination, between a variety of aid groups, they will be working out how best to help the people of this poor country.

No matter what is done, it will be criticised by those who's nature predisposes them to be that way.

Dropping the debt, & rebuilding Haiti as best it can be, to my mind can't be faulted.

Unfortunately, most people don't understand, that We, humanity, are all in it together.

[handy]

307,911 aiming at 350K now.

[wirepuller134]

signed, and emails sent to friends. Thank you Handy for the link.

[handy]

321,932 have already signed the petition! Let's reach our new target of 350,000:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/haiti_cancel_the_debt_13/?vl

[cmay]

321,932 have already signed the petition! Let's reach our new target of 350,000:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/haiti_cancel_the_debt_13/?vl

one more added the number from here .

[simpleblue]

Signed. Haiti has enough to worry about. It would be nice if countries, like where I am from (Canada), would let it go. I'd be glad to pay the extra taxes.

Besides, we life in a life of luxury compared to the rest of the world anyways. We can easily afford it! ;)

[handy]

one more added the number from here .

Thanks cmay. :)


Signed. Haiti has enough to worry about. It would be nice if countries, like where I am from (Canada), would let it go. I'd be glad to pay the extra taxes.

Besides, we life in a life of luxury compared to the rest of the world anyways. We can easily afford it! ;)

Very few of us can appreciate, the fact that the vast majority of the worlds population, doesn't have a bed to sleep in!

Just my having been lucky (no skill involved at all) enough to have been born in Oz, automatically puts me amongst the top 6% of the wealthiest people on the planet. Even if I happen to be so poor that I'm homeless in this country!

Very hard to fathom, unless you have spent time traveling extensively through India, China, parts of South & Central America, Africa, South East Asia...

[handy]

374,965 have already signed the petition! Let's reach our new target of 450,000

http://www.avaaz.org/en/haiti_cancel_the_debt_13/?vl