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msknight
January 24th, 2010, 11:00 AM
From my conversations with Toshiba; Microsoft have got it sewn up.

Toshiba claims to have abandoned their Linux ranges because of lack of customer feedback. When I ask for an e-mail address so that the Linux community can feed back ... they won't give me one.

A big problem in going Linux fully for me, is when I buy a drawing tablet, a mobile phone, a camera ... anything ... it comes with Microsoft software, sometimes Apple too ... but hardly ever Linux.

Am I being simplistic when I thought that starting - this petition on Downing Streets web site - (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/linuxsupport/) calling for mandatory support of any OS that has a 1% market share, was a good idea?

Do I have completely the wrong idea when I believe that we should not bother waiting for the manufacturers to invite us, but should instead be banging on their door to stop them ignoring Linux?

Someone told me that forcing companies to support Linux would unacceptably increase costs ... my response was that if they can afford to play in the hardware market, then porting code is relatively not that expensive.

Can someone give me a reality check on my viewpoints please?

Techsnap
January 24th, 2010, 11:10 AM
Someone told me that forcing companies to support Linux would unacceptably increase costs ... my response was that if they can afford to play in the hardware market, then porting code is relatively not that expensive.

Too expensive considering the economical conditions. Also Linux changes all the time with no real backwards compatibility. Lets say for example ATi writes a driver, 2 months later it's completely useless because a new version of X and a new version fo the Kernel are out which the driver cannot possibly support.

Until Linux has a more stable driver API I fully support hardware manufacturers not supporting it.

3rdalbum
January 24th, 2010, 11:26 AM
Too expensive considering the economical conditions. Also Linux changes all the time with no real backwards compatibility. Lets say for example ATi writes a driver, 2 months later it's completely useless because a new version of X and a new version fo the Kernel are out which the driver cannot possibly support.

Until Linux has a more stable driver API I fully support hardware manufacturers not supporting it.

You're looking at things the absolute wrong way around.

The hardware manufacturers don't need to do any extra programming. All they need to do is release specifications for how to communicate with their devices. There are kernel coders lining up to recieve said specifications and write drivers from them. Those drivers will be maintained in the kernel no matter what internal kernel API changes may occur.

But that's not even the best option. Hardware manufacturers need to come together and decide to create a standard for communicating with a particular class of device. That way, kernel developers on any operating system can implement the standard and then drive all standards-compliant hardware.

For instance: All USB microphones and headsets work without needing special drivers, because they all follow the USB Audio standard. All flash drives, internal and external hard disks follow particular standards so they don't require special drivers. Keyboards and mice follow standards. Even now webcams are starting to follow the new UVC standard for 'driverless' operation.

Linux will never have a stable in-kernel API. There are good reasons why it won't. But hardware manufacturers can make it a complete non-issue, and at the same time it will benefit users of Windows systems AND reduce development costs.

Techsnap
January 24th, 2010, 11:36 AM
All they need to do is release specifications for how to communicate with their devices.

Yeah because they can just do that right? Sometimes that's just not possible especially if there is protected property from other companies doing so. Also look, ATi released their spec and the open driver is still not up to the standards of the real driver.

mrebanza
January 24th, 2010, 11:42 AM
Too expensive considering the economical conditions. Also Linux changes all the time with no real backwards compatibility. Lets say for example ATi writes a driver, 2 months later it's completely useless because a new version of X and a new version fo the Kernel are out which the driver cannot possibly support.

Until Linux has a more stable driver API I fully support hardware manufacturers not supporting it.


Then how come Firefox is Multi-OS Supported and Skype and Micro and Pidgin and Vuze and last.fm and filezilla and Google Chrome!?!?!?

:popcorn:

Techsnap
January 24th, 2010, 11:46 AM
They're not hardware drivers.

ElSlunko
January 24th, 2010, 11:52 AM
3rd album brings up some excellent points but in the end it's a costly effort (that isn't very costly at all) vs. the benefit.

Khakilang
January 24th, 2010, 12:01 PM
Linux is develop by community and windoze is by a huge corporation with years of track record. Naturally they have more confidence in windoze than Linux.

Techsnap
January 24th, 2010, 12:04 PM
If windoze is huge, how comes I've never heard of them?

msknight
January 24th, 2010, 12:52 PM
Well, it's not only the drivers, it's the support software too.

My mobile contacts the manufacturer for updates, via desktop software that doesn't work on Linux. My camera comes with software to convert the RAW files as it has the colour profiles tuned for the camera, but not on Linux. I have a USB stick has in-built encryption that won't run on Linux ... that puts me at odds in work because government dictat is that we use encrypted USB sticks now... which means I can't take my work home or on the road; I need to use a work-issued laptop and, no offence to Dell hulk-books, but my Tosh NB200 is much smaller and neater. My sat nav can't update via Linux. The soft key programs that came with my keyboard and mouse won't work ... and more.

I view it as a closed industry which forces me to use Microsoft, or it makes my life a serious pain in the backside.

blueturtl
January 24th, 2010, 02:23 PM
Mandatory support? Who would get the authority and power to enforce that all companies comply? The government can't do that in a free economy, nor should it.

In a free market the vote you take with your wallet counts. Don't buy stuff that doesn't support or work in Linux. Period. If your employer does, you have to go with what they give you.

The hardware selection is bad -- I know -- but it is a good deal better than it was ten years ago. Slowly but surely the change is happening!

audiomick
January 24th, 2010, 02:42 PM
I view it as a closed industry which forces me to use Microsoft, or it makes my life a serious pain in the backside.

I feel the same, at least to an extent.

I think there are lots of factors; things like manufacturers wanting to protect their secrets and therefore not releasing specs, companies wanting to reduce their development and support costs and therefore only offering support for the commonest OS, as I understand it various OEM contracts that exclude offering support for other OSs (but I can't confirm this), and not the least an unfortunately fairly successful monopoly maintainance program by MS to ensure that nearly all the PCs on the market are come with windows pre-installed.

I think the only thing that will change anything is enough people saying often enough in the right direction "I want it to work with Linux". I hope that is not too far away.

Babbage
January 24th, 2010, 02:52 PM
Forget about corporations, software companies and governments, the change to GNU/Linux will only happen one person at a time, bit by bit, PC by PC ..... To coin a phrase "the revolution will not be televised" there will be no epiphany, apocalypse or software revolution. The change to Linux will be arduous, painful and gradual. It will occur one PC at a time ...... think about your family, your friends, your neighbours, and work colleagues. With how many of them have you shared the good news about Linux? Talk about it, show them what it can do and offer to help them make the change. I believe this is the best way to spread free software.

pwnst*r
January 24th, 2010, 02:56 PM
If windoze is huge, how comes I've never heard of them?

Indeed. I googled that and most of the hits were posts in the Community Cafe.

Techsnap
January 24th, 2010, 02:57 PM
Indeed. I googled that and most of the hits were posts in the Community Cafe.

Yep, so it must be something to do with Ubuntu. Obviously never took off over here in the UK because it's not in shops or anything.

cascade9
January 24th, 2010, 03:14 PM
Meh..double post. Bedtime :D

cascade9
January 24th, 2010, 03:14 PM
Yep, so it must be something to do with Ubuntu. Obviously never took off over here in the UK because it's not in shops or anything.

There was me thinking that it was next to OS/blew on the shelves. If only WackOS was sold at the same places, it would be in between them.


Toshiba claims to have abandoned their Linux ranges because of lack of customer feedback. When I ask for an e-mail address so that the Linux community can feed back ... they won't give me one.

That is what I call 'called out'. ;) IMO, one of the reasons why the hardware manufacturers like windows is because they only have to deal with 1 company, and if anything goes wrong there is one basic response- 'reinstall'. Its easier for them than to actually give any real support....


I feel the same, at least to an extent.

I think there are lots of factors; things like manufacturers wanting to protect their secrets and therefore not releasing specs, companies wanting to reduce their development and support costs and therefore only offering support for the commonest OS, as I understand it various OEM contracts that exclude offering support for other OSs (but I can't confirm this), and not the least an unfortunately fairly successful monopoly maintainance program by MS to ensure that nearly all the PCs on the market are come with windows pre-installed.

I think the only thing that will change anything is enough people saying often enough in the right direction "I want it to work with Linux". I hope that is not too far away.

Points. :)

I've heard the same thing about OEMs. I actually know one company here that was told by a microsoft rep 'if you keep installing and supporting BSD and linux, your windows licensing fees may increase'. The guy laughed at them, he wasnt exactly pro-redmond and had just moved to the point where he could just support *nix and get more than a nice wage for his trouble.

I dont think that we need that many people saying 'I want it to work with linux' myself. IMO, all the major 'OS market share' stats are flawed, at least. Once there is a larger userbase (say 15-30%), that might stop....hardware manufacturers will be far more likely to release specifications, if not actual hardware drivers.

clanky
January 24th, 2010, 03:25 PM
From my conversations with Toshiba; Microsoft have got it sewn up.

Toshiba claims to have abandoned their Linux ranges because of lack of customer feedback. When I ask for an e-mail address so that the Linux community can feed back ... they won't give me one.

A big problem in going Linux fully for me, is when I buy a drawing tablet, a mobile phone, a camera ... anything ... it comes with Microsoft software, sometimes Apple too ... but hardly ever Linux.


You pays your money (or not)and you takes your chances, if you decide to use Linux then you have to accept Linux for what it is, you can't go around baawwwing because you downloaded this free operating system and no-one will make stuff that supports it.



Am I being simplistic when I thought that starting - this petition on Downing Streets web site - (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/linuxsupport/) calling for mandatory support of any OS that has a 1% market share, was a good idea?


To be honest you are being a bit naive if you think that starting any petition on the downing street website is going to have any real effect other than allowing you to vent your spleen.



Do I have completely the wrong idea when I believe that we should not bother waiting for the manufacturers to invite us, but should instead be banging on their door to stop them ignoring Linux?

Someone told me that forcing companies to support Linux would unacceptably increase costs ... my response was that if they can afford to play in the hardware market, then porting code is relatively not that expensive.


The only way that companies will support Linux, or any other OS is when it becomes commercially viable for them to do so, for Linux that means that:-

1. The market share will have to increase significantly

2. The eleventeen million distros out there need to have some form of commonality to allow hardware manufacturers to support all of them, not just 1 distro.

3. Updates need to stop breaking drivers which work in existing releases.

4. The community need to stop acting like a bunch of retards who want something for nothing all the time, if you were a company who wanted to make profit and looked at certain (vocal) sections of the linux community would you not think "hold on, these guys don't want to pay for anything, why should I bother"

As has been said above, the companies could release the hardware details so that an open source driver could be written, but in many cases this would give information to their competitors which they do not want to make public.



Can someone give me a reality check on my viewpoints please?

Done and done.

Frak
January 25th, 2010, 06:04 AM
All they need to do is release specifications for how to communicate with their devices.

Yeah, because IP is just something you can throw around without care.

hemimaniac
January 25th, 2010, 06:08 AM
forget about corporations, software companies and governments, the change to gnu/linux will only happen one person at a time, bit by bit, pc by pc ..... To coin a phrase "the revolution will not be televised" there will be no epiphany, apocalypse or software revolution. The change to linux will be arduous, painful and gradual. It will occur one pc at a time ...... Think about your family, your friends, your neighbours, and work colleagues. With how many of them have you shared the good news about linux? Talk about it, show them what it can do and offer to help them make the change. I believe this is the best way to spread free software.


+1

samh785
January 25th, 2010, 06:12 AM
If windoze is huge, how comes I've never heard of them?
Good job with the whole ignoring the actual content of the post and focusing on the way he spells a word.

Frak
January 25th, 2010, 06:21 AM
Good job with the whole ignoring the actual content of the post and focusing on the way he spells a word.
I'll go back with what I said in the PLZ Help!!! thread:


Other: The language somebody uses in a post can alter my response to the point of mocking them.

Using Windoze, Window$, Micro$oft, M$, Cr@pple, or anything of the sorts doesn't make you look cool, it doesn't make you look intelligent, and it in no way entitles you to an intelligent response.

msknight
January 25th, 2010, 08:43 AM
What has commercially viable got to do with it?

UT2004 came out with Linux on the install CD, and that was years ago when numbers were lower than today. That engine port couldn't have been cheap.

I still say there is a case for the manufacturers to answer here; and nothing is going to change unless we get vocal. That petitions site has achieved some things purely through people actually being arsed to start voicing their opinions in numbers. At the very least, it will achieve people getting talking.

I've tried telling companies that I want it to work with Linux and I do vote with my wallet. Guess what ... it seems I'm one of the so small number of people that are doing it, that the companies don't give a flying, and I'm stuck.

If a handfull of people can put enough pressure on governments to change policy, then think of what we can do and ask the question ... why ain't we doing it?

The latest most accurate rough-guess figures out there from web traffic puts Linux at 1% client side usage ... that is significant figures in my book not only for usage, but also for a customer base that the hardware companies should be serving.

Techsnap
January 25th, 2010, 09:06 AM
Then fewer will use what they release, there are too many FOSS purists that use Linux which would warrant them not buying the products. So on an already low marketshare OS they'll have an even lower marketshare because of these people who refuse to run anything proprietary.

Then you've got the issue of people pirating the software too which again on a lower marketshare OS will mean even less profit. Linux is not commercially viable for most companies simple as.


Good job with the whole ignoring the actual content of the post and focusing on the way he spells a word.

If I was to use n00buntu or something you'd ignore it and complain.

bryncoles
January 25th, 2010, 11:13 AM
@Frak - Just remember the CoC. (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct). Specifically:


Be respectful. The Ubuntu community and its members treat one another with respect. Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Ubuntu. We may not always agree, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It's important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. We expect members of the Ubuntu community to be respectful when dealing with other contributors as well as with people outside the Ubuntu project and with users of Ubuntu.

It is important to discourage the use of "Windoze", "Micro$haft" "Crapple" and the like, but we can do this politely, within the form guidelines and while addressing the content of the original post.

ankspo71
January 25th, 2010, 11:50 AM
From my conversations with Toshiba; Microsoft have got it sewn up.

Toshiba claims to have abandoned their Linux ranges because of lack of customer feedback. When I ask for an e-mail address so that the Linux community can feed back ... they won't give me one.

A big problem in going Linux fully for me, is when I buy a drawing tablet, a mobile phone, a camera ... anything ... it comes with Microsoft software, sometimes Apple too ... but hardly ever Linux.

Am I being simplistic when I thought that starting - this petition on Downing Streets web site - (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/linuxsupport/) calling for mandatory support of any OS that has a 1% market share, was a good idea?

Do I have completely the wrong idea when I believe that we should not bother waiting for the manufacturers to invite us, but should instead be banging on their door to stop them ignoring Linux?

Someone told me that forcing companies to support Linux would unacceptably increase costs ... my response was that if they can afford to play in the hardware market, then porting code is relatively not that expensive.

Can someone give me a reality check on my viewpoints please?

Well, I don't know about "requiring" them to include linux drivers (or making it a law), but I think if enough requests were sent to specific companies, they might start actually making some sooner or later. I'm not a programmer so I don't know how much harder it would be for a company to create drivers for linux when they already have drivers for windows and mac, but I don't think it would be like reinventing the drivers all over again. Linux is growing every day and sooner or later these companies will realise there is a market in Linux and start creating drivers. It's up to us to let them know how much we (linux users) have grown, and that we have a need for those Linux drivers.

Some large companies continue to support hundreds of their products, so it may seem to those large companies, that only a few requests for a few of their products is not that big of deal. We need to let them know as often as we can for a variety of products.

just my opinions.:)

sdowney717
January 25th, 2010, 12:12 PM
For Nvidia > 90% of the code base is shared between windows and linux drivers


Q: About what percentage of the driver's code-base is shared between Linux and Windows platforms?

I'd estimate greater than 90% of the Linux driver is cross-platform code. The NVIDIA GPU software development team has made a very conscious effort to architect our driver code base to be cross-platform (for the relevant components). We try to abstract anything that needs to be operating system specific into thin interface layers.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia_qa_linux&num=2

so what are they doing that others could do? Or is it not all that hard for a manufacturer to write a Linux driver .

Martiini
January 25th, 2010, 01:19 PM
Open_Handset_Alliance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Handset_Alliance
resulted in releasing Android by cooperating software companies.

Paqman
January 25th, 2010, 02:06 PM
so what are they doing that others could do?

Nvidia have CUDA, and want to push their hardware as the default choice for GPGPU (and seem to be succeeding). Since a lot of the people who do hardcore number crunching use Linux (or at least want the option) it's not surprising that Nvidia have made a design choice to go as OS agnostic as possible.

At least, that seems like the obvious commercial factor to me. It's not like there's a big Linux gaming market they want to tap into.

samh785
January 25th, 2010, 07:07 PM
If I was to use n00buntu or something you'd ignore it and complain.
I would think that you were using a demeaning nickname for ubuntu to indicate a position that you personally had about it. Perhaps I would feel that you were misguided in the feelings that you had towards it but I certainly wouldn't ignore it and complain if you had something meaningful to say elsewhere in the post.

Frak
January 25th, 2010, 10:40 PM
@Frak - Just remember the CoC. (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct). Specifically:



It is important to discourage the use of "Windoze", "Micro$haft" "Crapple" and the like, but we can do this politely, within the form guidelines and while addressing the content of the original post.
Yes, you should remember that. Also, you should speak in clear, concise terms. Threads have been closed because the op decided to tlk lik dis. And, you know what, that's disrespectful to everybody here. Take time for people to help you, and don't expect them to rewrite your problem.

Until then, I'm mocking them.