Should Linspire Offer CNR for Ubuntu Users?

[mstlyevil]

Porting CNR to Ubuntu was being discussed in another thread with Linspire CEO Kevin Carmony. Here are some quotes from that conversation.


Kevin, would your company consider selling a multimedia pack for distros like Ubuntu to provide a legal way to obtain codecs and other proprietary multimedia software. One of my major concerns is the fact I may be breaking the law just to have multimedia support under Ubuntu and I have been waiting for some one to step up and offer these at a reasonable price. Since your company already has contracts with the makers of these codecs and software it would be in the perfect position to offer this to the end users of the free distros who share my concerns. It could also help your company's bottom line and open source in general. What are your thoughts on doing something like this and is it feasible?



somewhat off topic, but have you ever considered porting cnr to other distros?

Here is Kevin's reply


Absolutely. And guess which distro is top on our list? =)

I've talked to Mark about it. We both like the idea a great deal. We'd just make a way to apt-get the CNR client for free, then Ubuntu users could choose to simply use apt, OR, for those who want the one-click convenience of CNR, they could try CNR for free for 15 days, and if they like it, pay for the service ($20 per year).

You can use apt or CNR with Linspire today. I think that would be a great choice for Ubuntu users as well. Having more choices is always a good thing.

Yes, I don't want to get off topic here with more about this here in this thread, so I'll make a separate post and get input from you all about this idea there. So, save any comments, and look for that post.

Kevin

So here is the question posed to you Ubuntuers. Do you want something like this as a option to download and legally install codecs and other non-free software? As it stands now in some countries it may be illegal to do so on your own without permission or paying the royalties. This would provide an economical and easy way to aquire these codecs legally. There are other benefits that can be discussed of course and this thread is not just limited to just the codecs. People can also voice their concerns and questions for such a move but please do so with respect.

Edit: BTW it is a multiple choice poll because some people that might support such a move still may not use the service.

[Kevin Carmony]

First off, I want to say thank you to everyone who has welcomed me to your forum in the past. I've made my share of posts here in the past, usually trying to address or answer any questions people had about Linspire, and I've always been treated with nothing but courtesy and respect. Thank you.

The most recent instance of me jumping in to answer some questions, was in regards to OOoFF, where I responded with this post (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138366). In that thread, someone asked if Linspire has ever considered offering our CNR (http://www.neolinkcomputers.com/linux/lindows_4.0.html) (click and run) service to other, non-Linspire distros. I didn't want to take that thread off topic, so I promised I'd make a separate post about this topic. So, here it is. =)

http://media.linspire.com/resource/logos/cnr/cnrpowered150.jpg

Has Linspire ever considered offering their CNR (click and run) service to other distros?

The short answer is yes, and Mark and I have discussed this possibility for Ubuntu and we both like the idea. (Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "we're both open minded to the idea." Linspire would need to come to learn that it was something some Ubuntu users would want, and Mark would insist it be done in a way true to the values of Ubuntu or not at all.) The longer answer follows and I'd LOVE to hear input from Ubuntu users about this, as well as participate in the quick poll (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138616) I posted.

First off, for those who may not know, CNR (click and run) is a service Linspire users can subscribe to ($20 per year) which allows them to install thousands of software programs with LITERALLY one click. Many have the misconception that CNR is simply a GUI for apt-get. Not at all true. CNR is a lot more, and includes total software management features, complete updating management for your entire PC, "Aisles" which allow for grouping of applications to be installed with one click, CNB's or click and buys to purchase dozens of commercial products such as Star Office, games, etc., all with one click, user reviews, screen shots, and so on. If you're not familiar with CNR, you can learn more about it here (http://www.linspire.com/products_cnr_whatis.php?tab=whatis), nd you can browse through the CNR Warehouse here (http://www.linspire.com/products_cnr_whatis.php?tab=warehouse).

It would be very difficult for Linspire to offer CNR to just any distro, however, we have considered doing it for Ubuntu. 1) I've talked with Mark about it, and he's supportive of looking into the idea. As you know, Mark is open to most ideas that involve seeing a Ubuntu baseline being used to build other offerings, allowing more people to enjoy open source. Mark would have to be OK with whatever happened here, if anything, or we won't do it. 2) There are a lot of Ubuntu users, justifying our work to do this, and 3) Ubuntu is Debian based, as is Linspire, so our CNR Warehouse model could be wrapped around Ubuntu.

CNR already has the ability to support different pools, or what we call "Warehouses." For example, depending which version of Linspire you're on, you have a different CNR Warehouse available to you. In fact, CNR is sophisticated enough that it can support hundreds of different Warehouses. For example, Linspire employees have a different Warehouse than others. Linspire "Insiders" (15,000 testers) have access to a different Warehouse, and so on.

The idea would be to create a CNR Warehouse for each of the different Ubuntu distros. We would then make the CNR client available via apt-get. Once you've got that, the rest becomes one-click easy.

Why would Ubuntu users want to use CNR?

Several reasons...

1. Linspire supports dozens of proprietary applications, drivers and codecs that you may want to have access to. MP3, DVD, Real Audio, Windows Media, Quick Time, Java, Flash, nVidia, ATI, Bitstream fonts, and so on. For example, right out of the box, Linspire users have access to all these different file types (http://linspire.com/filetypes). With CNR, you could, with one click, deliver all this capability to your Ubuntu computer.

2. You may simply want the one-click convenience of CNR. You'd get the software management tools, Aisles, update notification, CNB's, and so on.

3. You could more easily set up your non-technical friends with Ubuntu. 98% of the world will no way take the time to learn how apt-get works. With CNR, they can manage all their software needs easily and graphically. Linspire is well known for being ultra easy to use, and that anyone can use it. CNR allows Ubuntu to be used by more "average Joe" computer users.

4. More and more open source software is now available on the web via CNR, without even going to the CNR Warehouse. For example, if you go to the download page for Nvu (http://nvu.com/download.html), you'll see that with one click, you can install that product.

But, if I use CNR, can I no longer use apt?

Because the CNR pool would be the same pool at what you're using apt from, yes, you could still use it. In other words, Ubuntu users would simply have the choice: 1) just use apt, like they do now. 2) pay $20 to use the CNR service, or 3) do both.

The key is that the choice would totally be yours.

Why wouldn't Ubuntu just offer this on their own so it could be free?

Mark agrees that CNR has four years of wonderful technology behind it, and it would be very difficult to offer something like CNR, at least not in the near future. Even if they could, chances are it wouldn't be free, because CNR isn't just the software client (that's a very small part of CNR), it's about the farm of servers that Linspire has to pay to keep running and bandwidth costs. $20 a year is a very fair price for such service that costs us a lot to run and offer.

Anything we would do, Mark would of course make sure was in line with Ubuntu's goals and mission, and we'd be happy to work with him to assure that is the case. (For example, he wouldn't put our client in the default distro but would have to be apt from a different location or downloaded and installed separately.) We would only do this with Mark's OK.

Your input

Again, up to now this is still in the though process, so no guarantees if we would do this, and that's why I'd love to hear your input. I hope you'll answer the poll (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138616) and post your comments and questions below.

Thanks!

Kevin Carmony
CEO, Linspire, Inc.

[Stormy Eyes]

If I can ignore CNR and keep using apt, it's all good.

[GeneralZod]

Technical question: I understand Ubuntu has many deltas from the main debian line. How much work would be required to ensure that CNR for Ubuntu delivers all of the proper Ubuntu-patched packages? Would it just be a case of sync-ing the CNR servers with Ubuntu's, or would it be more complex?

Also, where would the proceeds go to? If it's back into the community (paying developers; offering bounties; maybe, if the issue of micropayments could be sorted, direct to the the developers of the most-downloaded apps!; etc), then I think this would be a good thing to have! :)

[Alpha_toxic]

BTW it is a multiple choice poll because some people that might support such a move still may not use the service.

I think I'm one of those people. It's good for those countries where it's illegal to dl the codecs, but as I'm not living in such a country I'm not going to use it.
BTW, I can't seem to find the right answer for that in the pool's options (or is it the first one?).

[Stormy Eyes]

I guess this answers my other question. It appears that you're saying that CNR for Ubuntu would use Ubuntu's repositories, so there would be no risk of breakage due to mixing repositories. I'd be tempted to use it myself if I could install Linux ports of commercial games (like Neverwinter Nights and Doom 3) via CNR.

[nocturn]

Thanks, but no thanks.

Off course, others may find it useful and I have nothing against it.

[Brunellus]

I guess this answers my other question. It appears that you're saying that CNR for Ubuntu would use Ubuntu's repositories, so there would be no risk of breakage due to mixing repositories. I'd be tempted to use it myself if I could install Linux ports of commercial games (like Neverwinter Nights and Doom 3) via CNR.
I concur with StormyEyes. For most users on these forums who are used to apt-get (or at least Synaptic), CNR seems rather pointless. But if you're offering repos with commercial software that won't break an ubuntu install, suddenly things become interesting.

That said, the universe and multiverse repos fill most of my needs, so CNR is still of very limited utility.

[Kevin Carmony]

Looks like someone beat me to the punch! By about 2 minutes!

I hope everyone will read the post I made about CNR (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138611) before answering and answer the poll I posted (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138616).

Thanks,

Kevin

[mstlyevil]

I think I'm one of those people. It's good for those countries where it's illegal to dl the codecs, but as I'm not living in such a country I'm not going to use it.
BTW, I can't seem to find the right answer for that in the pool's options (or is it the first one?).

It should be the first one if you support it but then you select the I will not use it option.

[mstlyevil]

Looks like someone beat me to the punch! By about 2 minutes!

I hope everyone will read the post I made about CNR (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138611) before answering and answer the poll I posted (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138616).

Thanks,

Kevin

Sorry Kevin. If the mods want they can just merge them with your post being the lead post and your poll. I missed the part where you were going to start a thread on the issue.

[engla]

First, I think all your reasoning makes sense. You should absolutely provide CNR to Ubuntu because, as you like to say ;-) choice is good.


1. Linspire supports dozens of propriatary applications, drivers and codecs that you may want to have access to. MP3, DVD, Real Audio, Windows Media, Quick Time, Java, Flash, nVidia, ATI, Bitstream fonts, and so on. For example, right out of the box, Linspire users have access to all these different file types (http://linspire.com/filetypes). With CNR, you could, with one click, deliver all this capability to your Ubuntu computer.

This sounds great. Right now we have noone to turn to if we really wanted to pay for those patents. With CNR I suppose Ubuntu would have a legal & valid way to do that. Not in my interest personally though, and I live in EU all the same also.
It's interesting if this could convey a point to the users though -- what proprietary formats actually mean! You have to pay to use it! Many here think this is absurd and if we can get this into the minds of regular users (via this backdoor), it would be a philosophical win.


And, because it interests me; what is the architecture support stance? Linspire is x86-only and that makes sense for you; debian, however supports lots of architectures so you have the backend in place.
I'm a PPC user (but will probably not be after this generation of computers is replaced), so will PPC be supported? I don't expect it to be, as you probably have to release something that you don't really want to support, and double the number of Ubuntu warehouses..

[PapaWiskas]

I like what you have said, as a recent ******* convert, I have been free from ******* since December.
I have learned a lot since then, and I realize I have a long ways to go.

Your suggestion really appeals to me, in fact it is downright lustfully tempting me. But then I realized something, it would bring me back to where I was before coming here to Ubuntu.

What I mean is this, I have had to learn to use my brain in Linux, not just use the OS. I have been more stimulated these last 3 months then I ever have been since 1995. But I really do see a need for something like this for users who just want to use their computers.

And what you are proposing is after all a choice, not a mandate. And in the end it is all about choices. And if there is something out there that will help people switch from ******* I am all for that, by all means, get the masses to wake up.

The only thing I can really offer you in terms of a suggestions is tiered service. I would be willing to pay $10.00 for say half a year, to see if I would really use it or not, or liked it for that matter. Because to be honest with you, $20.00 for a whole year, for something I might not even use because apt-get works just fine, just does not make sense, for me that is.

[Kevin Carmony]

Technical question: I understand Ubuntu has many deltas from the main debian line. How much work would be required to ensure that CNR for Ubuntu delivers all of the proper Ubuntu-patched packages? Would it just be a case of sync-ing the CNR servers with Ubuntu's, or would it be more complex?

Also, where would the proceeds go to? If it's back into the community (paying developers; offering bounties; maybe, if the issue of micropayments could be sorted, direct to the the developers of the most-downloaded apps!; etc), then I think this would be a good thing to have! :)

We'd work with Mark and Ubuntu to make sure we're mirroring the pools properly so this doesn't happen. Again, we solved this problem for Linspire users a long time ago, and CNR supports multiple warehouses. The Warehouse for Ubuntu users would be different than the one for Linspire users, so we don't break anything. In fact, each version of Ubuntu would have its own Warehouse.

Kevin

[jc87]

I personnaly think is good because is always nice to have a choice .

But if i consider use it it would be only for commercial software as Cedega , Games , etc... when it comes to other stuff i prefer apt-get.

About proprietary formats i would never pay for them , because :

A) I prefer the free ones , if i´m forced to use the closed ones against my will i should not have to pay for them.

B ) If they are free as in free beer at wintendo , they should also be for nix*:twisted:.

[KingBahamut]

I think Ive pretty much made my stance on this kind of move aware. But, again, goes back to informing the user and on what level we inform the user. If the user knows that they have a choice , It cant be harmful.

[Kevin Carmony]

I concur with StormyEyes. For most users on these forums who are used to apt-get (or at least Synaptic), CNR seems rather pointless. But if you're offering repos with commercial software that won't break an ubuntu install, suddenly things become interesting.

Correct.

Again, things you'd get with CNR:

- GUI interface, no clickety clack at the command line.

- One-click install.

- Nearly 100% success rate. CNR has been used millions of times, and today we have a better than 98% success rate, with the failures usually being related to modem users who lose connection, and even then, CNR is smart enough to simply work when it's reconnected. We have spent four years perfecting CNR. Breaking things, messed up dependencies, and so on are all the things we've spent years making sure users never experience. CNR will invisibly and automatically fix any wedges, and so on.

- Improved applications. Linspire spends a lot of time cleaning up the most popular applications in the Warehouse. We push all our changes back, but sometimes that takes time before the fixes hit the mainstream. For example, my version of Moz/FF corrects my spelling as I type this forum post. That is an enhancement we made to FF and given back, but who knows when it will hit the mainstream. Again, we test and make sure the changes don't break anything, and you always have access to the original way if you prefer that. If you see GIMP running on a computer that installed it with CNR, you see a much improved GIMP. and so on.

- Access to legal codecs, drivers and 3rd party proprietary software.

- Aisles for one-click of groups of software.

- Software management so that you can, for example, install Ubuntu on a brand new computer, and with one click, it adds all the software that CNR knows YOU like. So, with one click you turn a new computer into your dream development system, or dream gaming computer, etc. CNR is licensed to you as a user, so you can use it on all your computers without paying additional fees.

- Update notification and one-click updating of ALL software, drivers, and applications on your computer.

- A friendly Warehouse (http://www.linspire.com/products_cnr_whatis.php?tab=warehouse) with nice screenshots, user reviews, charts, and so on.

We know it's not for everyone, no service is, but it may be right for some of you or your friends?

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

And, because it interests me; what is the architecture support stance? Linspire is x86-only and that makes sense for you; debian, however supports lots of architectures so you have the backend in place.
I'm a PPC user (but will probably not be after this generation of computers is replaced), so will PPC be supported? I don't expect it to be, as you probably have to release something that you don't really want to support, and double the number of Ubuntu warehouses..

We'd naturally start with x86 and see how it goes. If there were demand, we'd expand out.

Kevin

[DigitalDuality]

Nothing wrong with extra choices :)

[Stormy Eyes]

I concur with StormyEyes. For most users on these forums who are used to apt-get (or at least Synaptic), CNR seems rather pointless. But if you're offering repos with commercial software that won't break an ubuntu install, suddenly things become interesting.

Exactly. I can install games like NWN or apps like StarOffice manually, but doing so is a pain and involves at least half an hour of RTFM and tinkering. My wife would definitely find CNR useful if it could be used to install commercial games without having to have me tie up her machine for half an hour to make sure everything works correctly.

[Kevin Carmony]

Also, where would the proceeds go to? If it's back into the community (paying developers; offering bounties; maybe, if the issue of micropayments could be sorted, direct to the the developers of the most-downloaded apps!; etc), then I think this would be a good thing to have! :)

To pay the salaries of the full-time employees who keep CNR humming, to pay for the server farms, to pay for the bandwidth, to pay for the support personnel to help you if you have a problem, to pay the license fees for the 3rd-party codecs and software, etc. You're not paying for open source software, you're paying for the convenience of this service. You'd only do it IF you felt that convenience was worth the $20. If not, keep using apt.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

The only thing I can really offer you in terms of a suggestions is tiered service. I would be willing to pay $10.00 for say half a year, to see if I would really use it or not, or liked it for that matter. Because to be honest with you, $20.00 for a whole year, for something I might not even use because apt-get works just fine, just does not make sense, for me that is.

CNR is free for the first 15 days, so you'd be able to try it before you buy it. In fact, during those first 15 days, you can even go and install every application in the Warehouse if you want. We don't worry about that. Why? Because 1) while you're doing all that installing, you'll become addicted to CNR, and 2) all those applications will need updating, and you may decide one-click is a slick way to keep everything updated.

Ubuntu updates their OS every 6 months, but Linspire adds things to our Warehouse DAILY. Linspire users find new and cool things to play with each week, not just every 6 months. Again, we make sure none of our changes break anything along the way.

The more CNR users we can get, the more we can invest in improving the CNR Warehouse, keeping it up to date, etc.

Kevin

[jrib]

I don't think I would personally be very interested in this. It might help ensure that the newcomers to ubuntu don't break any of their country's laws when they attempt to get support for proprietary formats, so it could be helpful to some.

One question, I skimmed through the CNR pages and couldn't find information on this (although i didn't look that hard). I assume CNR itself is proprietary and is not an open-source project?

[Kevin Carmony]

Your suggestion really appeals to me, in fact it is downright lustfully tempting me. But then I realized something, it would bring me back to where I was before coming here to Ubuntu.

What I mean is this, I have had to learn to use my brain in Linux, not just use the OS. I have been more stimulated these last 3 months then I ever have been since 1995. But I really do see a need for something like this for users who just want to use their computers.

Exactly. Even if it's not right for you, you may still find it necessary to recommend Ubuntu/Linux to your friends who don't want to spend the same time you have in the last 3 years. 98% of the world just want to use their computer, not use it as a way of learning about technology, for them, CNR is ideal, in fact, it's probably required or they won't use Linux.

Also, don't be surprised if YOU do fall in love with CNR. Do you think our engineers know how to use apt? Of course they do. But, even you will agree, at some point you're brain is no longer being stimulated by installing the same thing over and over on different computers, etc. That's great you now have that knowledge, but you may still find some tasks are tedious and you'll want to use a mixture of CNR and apt.

Kevin

[KingBahamut]

Again the glory and concept of what your offering vs what I feel the industry needs is way out of synch. We all could have made money this way. But I look at what this kind of thing does, it builds Walls in a community that should be driven by Openess and Freedom. Call me a RMS-droid, but Im old school. Synapitc, aptitude, apt, yum, emerge, whatever you choose to use in whatever distribution you use, is good.

Do other means of installing software need to come about , varied against the common user's ability? It might, but it should be equally as capable of supplying that user a Free alternative to doing so.

[Kevin Carmony]

Exactly. I can install games like NWN or apps like StarOffice manually, but doing so is a pain and involves at least half an hour of RTFM and tinkering. My wife would definitely find CNR useful if it could be used to install commercial games without having to have me tie up her machine for half an hour to make sure everything works correctly.

We have a lot of "wives" who are CNR subscribers. =)

Kevin

[Bandit]

Kevin,
I have noticed from a while back that CNR offers media players that play DVD's (encrypted, commercial).
Do these use the libdvdcss decryption codec? If so how do you legally handle this?
Is there a fee paid by CNR to the patent holders?
The reason I ask is I think this would be a great idea for many users to get what they need to make there linux experience much better and still keep us in the good faith of the legal world.
I for one would be very happy to pay a small fee to cover patent cost so if RIIA was to visit my home I could give them the finger instead.
Thanks,
Joe
www.banditshome.net - Ubuntu contributor.

[Kevin Carmony]

One question, I skimmed through the CNR pages and couldn't find information on this (although i didn't look that hard). I assume CNR itself is proprietary and is not an open-source project?

Yes. The CNR client is the only propriatary piece of Linspire software we put in our OS. All our other code is open source and contributed back. Because CNR is how we stay in business, we do keep it propriatary. However, I will say, the magic of CNR is 95% server side, not in the client.

Kevin

[Bragador]

while you're doing all that installing, you'll become addicted to CNR

Well that's what I was thinking. The system is good but it has the same philosophy as Apple and Miscrosoft. They are trying to get their users "addicted " to their ways so the customers will never change for another product, even if there are better choices out there. People hate to learn new things so I'm against that.

On the other hand, there IS a demand and providing an OPTIONAL product like you are doing is, in my mind, a very good compromise. I wouldn't use it but I'm sure many others would.

I'll teach my friends how to use apt and I'll tell my mom to use CNR. Then again I don't think she sees the need to update anything anyway lol

[aysiu]

Options are always a good thing, and CNR looks great.

I happen to think Synaptic is extremely user-friendly, but CNR fits more the online "shopping" model of things that consumers are used to.

[Kevin Carmony]

Again the glory and concept of what your offering vs what I feel the industry needs is way out of synch. We all could have made money this way. But I look at what this kind of thing does, it builds Walls in a community that should be driven by Openess and Freedom. Call me a RMS-droid, but Im old school. Synapitc, aptitude, apt, yum, emerge, whatever you choose to use in whatever distribution you use, is good.

Do other means of installing software need to come about , varied against the common user's ability? It might, but it should be equally as capable of supplying that user a Free alternative to doing so.

And you and RMS still have all the same choices you have today.

Now, if you're suggesting that in order for your ideals to survive, you and RMS must LIMIT others choices, that's just down right evil! =)

If alternatives to a totally open and free system slow down the advancement of that system, so be it. That will be a choice free-thinking people will make for themselves. Now, you can say, "I wish people wouldn't choose the easy way," but I hope you wouldn't say "We should force people by taking away that choice."

For example, I dislike DRM in music, and *I* may personally choose to NOT use things like iTunes or an iPod which facilitates the advancement of DRM, but I would NEVER take that choice away from others.

We at Linspire LOVE and CHERISH the open source ideals. We probably just have a different belief in how to best spread those ideals. RMS believes you hold true to the ideal, at all costs. I believe making open source solutions more accessible to all is the Trojan horse that could in fact bring MORE people to things like openoffice, etc. But, if you tell people, "Sorry, you can't use your mp3 player," you just lost any chance of winning these people over. If however, you can hook them on SOME open source ideals, then perhaps one day they'll understand OGG and embrace it.

I guess the question is are things like this a Trojan horse to better days for open source, or a slippery slope to the demise of open source. In the end, people will decide, and I have no interest in limiting their choices to force them to decide the way I want.

Kevin

[nblythin]

The lack of something like CNR was the biggest adjustment I had to make when switching to Ubuntu from Xandros... and it wasn't always a comfortable adjustment to make! Xandros had XN (Xandros Networks) which is a bit more in line with CNR than with Synaptic, and I really liked it.

I'm only just starting to wrap my head around Edubuntu - as its a project I'd like to get more involved with. I think for it to be successful both with kids, and with school IT people (most of whom are teachers, many with very little computer knowledge) - the availability of something like CNR would be a huge selling point.

So my vote would defenitely be "YES". Provided of course, that things worked out on the technical side.

Edit: While I do have the highest respect for RMS - I also think that you can take the rhetoric too far. With so many people in this world being locked into using proprietary technologies, strict adherence to an ideal or philosophy won't be enough to win them over. For the time being, competing with the mainstream means having to (in some cases, and for some people) use of licenced technologies - even if there is a cost involved. MP3 players are the prefect example.

[Kevin Carmony]

Kevin,
I have noticed from a while back that CNR offers media players that play DVD's (encrypted, commercial).
Do these use the libdvdcss decryption codec? If so how do you legally handle this?
Is there a fee paid by CNR to the patent holders?
The reason I ask is I think this would be a great idea for many users to get what they need to make there linux experience much better and still keep us in the good faith of the legal world.
I for one would be very happy to pay a small fee to cover patent cost so if RIIA was to visit my home I could give them the finger instead.
Thanks,
Joe
www.banditshome.net - Ubuntu contributor.

Linspire users can, with their CNR subscription, purchase a legal and licensed DVD playback solution for $9.95. Some codec licensing we include in the CNR or Linspire fees, but DVD is quite expensive to us, so we have to charge additional for it. There are multiple licenses that we have to pay to legally provide a DVD playback solution.

This is why CNR users can get things like OpenOffice for no additional charge, but they have to pay extra for things like StarOffice, because WE have to pay. We do, however, make big discounts available for CNR Gold users. For example, they can get StarOffice here (http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_details.php?product_id=23212) with one click for only $49.95, as opposed to the list price of $100.

By the way, you don't need to be a CNR subscriber to purchase commercial products with one click, so anyone could buy the DVD playback software, but we do offer discounts to subscribers.

Kevin

[towsonu2003]

CNR is free for the first 15 days, so you'd be able to try it before you buy it.
I oppose using anything that is not free in Linux. This only excludes support provided by professionals, and giving an "opensuse evaluation version" type choice[1].

I especially hate subscribing to something in order to get updates and software. If Ubuntu would put this as the feature, I'm outta here. If this will be a feature that is not mentioned in here and there as a great feature of ubuntu, then choice is ok, even though it is nonsense as we have repositories and automatix and EasyUbuntu. I'm pretty sure someone will also come soon with a proprietary version of ubuntu (Poopuntu?).

I'm not gonna be part of a distribution that is linked with subscription schemes. This is the sole reason I did not even try Mandriva and Linspire.

To make this clear:
* include CNR but don't promote it -> fine by me
* include CNR and promote it -> I'm outta here
* include CNR and replace with repositories in the future -> I'd predict everyone's (but newbies) outta here


[1]In opensuse, you can get OSS version for free or you can buy opensuse + proprietary stuff. OSS version works just like ubuntu (you struggle to get proprietary software installed and working).

[Stormy Eyes]

- GUI interface, no clickety clack at the command line.

I've found GUI package managers like Synaptic to be very clunky compared to using apt on the command line. How does CNR's interface compare to that of package managers like YaST and Synaptic?


- Improved applications. Linspire spends a lot of time cleaning up the most popular applications in the Warehouse. We push all our changes back, but sometimes that takes time before the fixes hit the mainstream. For example, my version of Moz/FF corrects my spelling as I type this forum post. That is an enhancement we made to FF and given back, but who knows when it will hit the mainstream. Again, we test and make sure the changes don't break anything, and you always have access to the original way if you prefer that. If you see GIMP running on a computer that installed it with CNR, you see a much improved GIMP. and so on.

Now I'm interested. I had thought that CNR was just another packaging system, albeit one better suited to non-geeks than apt-get. Does Linspire provide a list of enhanced packages?


- Access to legal codecs, drivers and 3rd party proprietary software.

I'll admit that this would help Ubuntu.


- Software management so that you can, for example, install Ubuntu on a brand new computer, and with one click, it adds all the software that CNR knows YOU like.

So, if I screwed up my installation, I could just reinstall the base system and have CNR automatically reinstall everything I've installed via CNR?

[PapaWiskas]

CNR is free for the first 15 days, so you'd be able to try it before you buy it. In fact, during those first 15 days, you can even go and install every application in the Warehouse if you want. We don't worry about that. Why? Because 1) while you're doing all that installing, you'll become addicted to CNR, and 2) all those applications will need updating, and you may decide one-click is a slick way to keep everything updated.

Ubuntu updates their OS every 6 months, but Linspire adds things to our Warehouse DAILY. Linspire users find new and cool things to play with each week, not just every 6 months. Again, we make sure none of our changes break anything along the way.

The more CNR users we can get, the more we can invest in improving the CNR Warehouse, keeping it up to date, etc.

Kevin

Now that is something I was not aware of 15 days free is a nice touch. Thank you for pointing that out.

I also like the idea of you having the most up to date software, vs 6 months.




Exactly. Even if it's not right for you, you may still find it necessary to recommend Ubuntu/Linux to your friends who don't want to spend the same time you have in the last 3 years. 98% of the world just want to use their computer, not use it as a way of learning about technology, for them, CNR is ideal, in fact, it's probably required or they won't use Linux.

Also, don't be surprised if YOU do fall in love with CNR. Do you think our engineers know how to use apt? Of course they do. But, even you will agree, at some point you're brain is no longer being stimulated by installing the same thing over and over on different computers, etc. That's great you now have that knowledge, but you may still find some tasks are tedious and you'll want to use a mixture of CNR and apt.

Kevin

You make a good point, it would be nice to just get things done ASAP rather than go through all the motions to get things where you want them even if you do know how to do it via apt-get.

I know sometimes I just want to be done and stop farting around.

Ok....so I am becoming more of a believer in this concept.
After all it comes down to a matter of choice in the end, and that is something I am not willing to give up.

[Bandit]

The system is good but it has the same philosophy as Apple and Miscrosoft.
M$ and Apple are multi million dollar corporations. They didn’t get on top buy being nice all the time. I honestly believe if Linux is going to survive in the corporate world and start taking a real foot hold in the market, then it will have to have a balance of good and bad. If we try to be "good" all the time and use only open source software and never use MP3 codecs or DVD decryption software and so one we will never succeed. There is always going to have to be some proprietary software out there. Sometimes it is a necessary evil. If we are ever, going to get hardware makers to start putting out better hardware drivers (proprietary or not) then we have to get Linux into a larger more financially feasible side of the market.
Cheers,
Joe

[Kernel Sanders]

*****WARNING - NOOB COMMENT! - MAY NOT MAKE SENSE OR EVEN BE CORRECT!*****

So basically, this would be an "add-on" as opposed to being part of the Ubuntu install?

If so, i'd have no objections, I, and others could just refuse to use/even recognise it exists if we want to?

If your planning to make it part of the install, i'd actually start a pressure group to crush this idea into tiny little pieces. My understanding is that this is a piece of proprietary software, or at least allows quick install of some software that is proprietary? In any case, proprietary software has no place anywhere near Ubuntu, and should stay at least one country mile from it at all times!

My 2 cents.

John \\:D/

[Bragador]

To Bandit :

I disagree with your logic.

If you took the time to talk to your friends about linux and its softwares you wouldn't need companies making private softwares. I also wouldn't recommand CNR to anybody that knows or can learn how to work with other ways.

Keeping your code private doesn't help linux in my mind, it SLOWS its progress.

[Bandit]

Linspire users can, with their CNR subscription, purchase a legal and licensed DVD playback solution for $9.95. Some codec licensing we include in the CNR or Linspire fees, but DVD is quite expensive to us, so we have to charge additional for it. There are multiple licenses that we have to pay to legally provide a DVD playback solution.

This is why CNR users can get things like OpenOffice for no additional charge, but they have to pay extra for things like StarOffice, because WE have to pay. We do, however, make big discounts available for CNR Gold users. For example, they can get StarOffice here (http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_details.php?product_id=23212) with one click for only $49.95, as opposed to the list price of $100.

Kevin

Very understandable and I think its a great idea.
The hardest part about the linux community is most think *everything* should be free and want no part in big corperations or proprietory software. But yeat they still complain about many hardware and software issues.
Like I siad. I think this is a great idea and if you can speak to Mark that would be nice.
Cheers,
Joe

[Kevin Carmony]

Well that's what I was thinking. The system is good but it has the same philosophy as Apple and Miscrosoft. They are trying to get their users "addicted " to their ways so the customers will never change for another product, even if there are better choices out there. People hate to learn new things so I'm against that.

Nothing wrong with that. I'm addicted to Godiva chocolate, and I love it! Those evil buggers at Godiva!

As long as users have a choice, there's nothing wrong with having pride in a product or service you offer and wanting it to be so great that your users never want to stop using it.

Over the last 20 years, I have owned about 7 cars, all from the same manufacturer. I haven't switched. Not because I'm locked in or don't have choices, but because I have had a great experience with this vendor and I don't want to change. I don't fault them for trying to keep my business, in fact, I WANT THEM to work hard to get me addicted to their cars, that way the car will be good.

It shouldn't be about limiting choice, but rather, making sure there are lots of options so people have a choice. Then, the only thing keeping someone there is if they like the product.

When you choose ANY technology, there is usually some level of lock out that is going to occure. When you use Ubuntu, you're basically locked out from Fedora updates. We all choose paths with our technology. It's all about choice, and that's why Linspire has NEVER tried to "lock out" apt get from our OS.

Kevin

[KingBahamut]

And you and RMS still have all the same choices you have today.

Now, if you're suggesting that in order for your ideals to survive, you and RMS must LIMIT others choices, that's just down right evil! =)

If alternatives to a totally open and free system slow down the advancement of that system, so be it. That will be a choice free-thinking people will make for themselves. Now, you can say, "I wish people wouldn't choose the easy way," but I hope you wouldn't say "We should force people by taking away that choice."

For example, I dislike DRM in music, and *I* may personally choose to NOT use things like iTunes or an iPod which facilitates the advancement of DRM, but I would NEVER take that choice away from others.

We at Linspire LOVE and CHERISH the open source ideals. We probably just have a different belief in how to best spread those ideals. RMS believes you hold true to the ideal, at all costs. I believe making open source solutions more accessible to all is the Trojan horse that could in fact bring MORE people to things like openoffice, etc. But, if you tell people, "Sorry, you can't use your mp3 player," you just lost any chance of winning these people over. If however, you can hook them on SOME open source ideals, then perhaps one day they'll understand OGG and embrace it.

I guess the question is are things like this a Trojan horse to better days for open source, or a slippery slope to the demise of open source. In the end, people will decide, and I have no interest in limiting their choices to force them to decide the way I want.

Kevin


I think your mistaking me taking choices away, I condone the concept of giving users a choice. When you offer Openoffice to your users, do you tell them that there is actually a Free Version of the product, rather than just trying to sell it to them? Do you tell your users that there are free versions for everything that CNR gives you? Do they have that choice? Im not taking choice away from the user by saying so. Im stating that the user should have it, wether it be Linspire, Ubuntu, whatever. If the user wants to pay money for it, that is the users well given right. But they also have a right to know that what they are paying for is given freely and openly somewhere else. It may not be supported, and youd think youd at least offer the user that choice, but from all Ive seen, you push CNR and you push your membership fees and no where do I see that the user is made aware that they also have free alternatives to what you offer within your own distribution.

[Bandit]

To Bandit :

I disagree with your logic.

If you took the time to talk to your friends about linux and its softwares you wouldn't need companies making private softwares. I also wouldn't recommand CNR to anybody that knows or can learn how to work with other ways.

Keeping your code private doesn't help linux in my mind, it SLOWS its progress.

You must have a ZEN. A middle ground for a business to succeed. Like it or not Linux is a business. I never said the kernel would not be open. I never said gnome would not be open. Even Linus agree's with this. That is why he said he was NOT going to use the GPL 3.0.

[Kevin Carmony]

I oppose using anything that is not free in Linux. This only excludes support provided by professionals, and giving an "opensuse evaluation version" type choice[1].

Then I assume you also...

- Don't subscribe to any magazines or newspapers. (Those buggers at the New York Times and Linux Journal are just plane evil!)

- Don't subscribe to any services like electricity or gas for your home. (Those blasted utility companies just want us to be beholden to their evil plot, that's why I generate my own power at all times with solar panels and my power generating cycle.)

- Don't pay rent to your land lord. (He's just evil, and we should all build our own homes to live in.)

Most people who feel the way you do (and there are many), ONLY feel that way about their software. They feel that way because they saw what happened with a monopoly, so they are paranoid to the other extreme. When there is no choice, people can behave in evil ways. I think the solution is just to have more choices, not less.

I respect your right to feel the way you do, and hopefully you respect my right to pay others to provide products and services to me that I find helpful.

I don't want to spend years learning how to use a computer. You may, but I don't, so I hope that doesn't mean I can't use a computer?

Kevin

[Bragador]

You must have a ZEN. A middle ground for a business to succeed. Like it or not Linux is a business. I never said the kernel would not be open. I never said gnome would not be open. Even Linus agree's with this. That is why he said he was NOT going to use the GPL 3.0.

Ah but if CNR is so great then opening the code wouldn't be a problem since the SERVICE wouldn't be replacable by competitors right ?

If you think someone else could offer a better service and thus you close your code, you ARE slowing the evolution of technology. It comes down to micorsoft and apple's strategies of making sure no one can compete with them on their own grounds. Sure the products are nice but they hate competition (understandable). On the other hand I am for 100% free competition and thus I stand my ground.

Also, if CNR was open source, the community could improve it and Linspire could also take what the other projects added/improved and add it to THEIR service.

Anyway, Mr. Carmony said the whole secret was that 5% was the software and 95% was server side.

It's okay that they charge for the service, but open the damn code for the love of Thor !

[Kevin Carmony]

Ok....so I am becoming more of a believer in this concept.
After all it comes down to a matter of choice in the end, and that is something I am not willing to give up.

Amen! Choice, I love it!

Kevin

[John.Michael.Kane]

Options are good for linux, however this is one that this user will never use.. i understand linux as a whole wanting to be user friendly however there should be another way to bring it to the mass'es without the use of closedsource programs.. now i known many of the programs some folks use are closed sourced however they are free to download, and free to use. this option just seems to make it easy for someone to install. ie those who don't want to use the comandline. which to me takes all the fun out of learning linux, and it's many functions.

[Kevin Carmony]

So, if I screwed up my installation, I could just reinstall the base system and have CNR automatically reinstall everything I've installed via CNR?

Yep! And you can make quick edits to any change you want to make before you do so, just check or uncheck boxes, then click CNR one time, and you're done'

For example, Linspire take less than 10 minutes to install, so I can do that, then with one click, come back in a half hour and that computer is set up exactly like I like it. We call it "BYOD" (build your own distro). That's basically what you're doing. We even have the option, when you use CNR, to store the install files locally in a handy repository directory. So, if you want, just make a copy of that directory (burn to CD, copy to network drive, USB drive, etc.), and if you then copy that directory to a new install, CNR will do all the work in just a minute or two, because it only downloads any new pieces. This is the kind of cool stuff most non-Linspire users don't know about CNR.

Kevin

[Bandit]

Then I assume you also...

- Don't subscribe to any magazines or newspapers. (Those buggers at the New York Times and Linux Journal are just plane evil!)

- Don't subscribe to any services like electricity or gas for your home. (Those blasted utility companies just want us to be beholden to their evil plot, that's why I generate my own power at all times with solar panels and my power generating cycle.)

- Don't pay rent to your land lord. (He's just evil, and we should all build our own homes to live in.)

Most people who feel the way you do (and there are many), ONLY feel that way about their software. They feel that way because they saw what happened with a monopoly, so they are paranoid to the other extreme. When there is no choice, people can behave in evil ways. I think the solution is just to have more choices, not less.

I respect your right to feel the way you do, and hopefully you respect my right to pay others to provide products and services to me that I find helpful.

I don't want to spend years learning how to use a computer. You may, but I don't, so I hope that doesn't mean I can't use a computer?

Kevin

You have a very good point Kevin. :)
Like I stated, its all about zen.
Linux must find a middle ground to succeed.

[jm2003uk]

My view is if i wanted to use CNR i would use Linspire. Now i've tried linspire before and thought it was pretty good. Easy to install, everything was set up and working (graphics and wireless) out of the box. But then i looked at how to install stuff and fround CNR. I then saw that it was a subscription service and that really put me off...especially when i knew i could get the same stuff FREE using a different distro.

So i ended up here using Ubuntu. And while things may not be as 'easy' to do we have an amazing community to help new comers as well as the extremly thorough Wiki. And just by searching and asking questions i've learnt how to set up my graphics card, i've been able to set up my wireless using ndiswrapper. I can also just load up synaptic and search for different programs, select it and then click apply and it downloads and installs it and i can remove programs just as easily.

Ubuntu is the distro that does everything that other os's do but is a real FREE alternative with no sudden charges popping up (CNR).


My thoughts. Feel much better now i've said that.

[KingBahamut]

Based on that argument Kevin....Are you a Car Salesman?

Your selling me a product that , once I buy the product if I really want it to work, then I have to put more money into it. Microsoft does the same thing with Windows, capn. Buy XP, then Buy Office, then Buy Quickbooks or Quicken or whatever. Keep dumping money into a product that for all intents an purposes , should work out of the box. Novell does it. Red Hat does it. Ubuntu does it. Mandriva Does it.

What makes you different?

[DrFunkenstein]

When you offer Openoffice to your users, do you tell them that there is actually a Free Version of the product, rather than just trying to sell it to them? Do you tell your users that there are free versions for everything that CNR gives you? Do they have that choice?
I think you are mixing stuff together here. If I understand it correctly, you don't have to pay to install open source software from CNR, you have to pay for being able to use the service.
This is not about the OooFf (or whatever it was called) that was discussed before.

Now on topic.
Personally I'm pretty sure I'd never use CNR. From reading the descriptions, I don't think it offers anything to me that would be worth shelling out the 20 bucks.

However, that doesn't mean that others don't feel different about it, so if the Linspire guys think that's economically feasible for them, great, go ahead and off this service to Ubuntu users.
Btw., I think there will at least be a market for the multimedia solutions CNR offers.

[towsonu2003]

- Don't subscribe to any magazines or newspapers.
correct (I have choice)


- Don't subscribe to any services like electricity or gas for your home. I don't have a choice there. here, I have.


- Don't pay rent to your land lord. (He's just evil, and we should all build our own homes to live in.) I don't have a choice there. here, I have. Landlords (and I am one) are evil. though that's irrelevant...


Most people who feel the way you do (and there are many), ONLY feel that way about their software. What if they had free choices? (get free laptop, get free gas, get free services, get free medical attention...) you see my point.


I respect your right to feel the way you do, and hopefully you respect my right to pay others to provide products and services to me that I find helpful.

There is nothing wrong with providing products for money, as long as you don't have the capitalist tendency to shut down free alternatives. This is in no way an offense to you. I have no idea whether you wanna shut down your business opponents ;)


I don't want to spend years learning how to use a computer. You may, but I don't, so I hope that doesn't mean I can't use a computer?

I don't like the elitist argument that if you own a computer, you have to spend time to learn how to use it. It has a point though, but it's still elitist.

As I mentioned above, I oppose using anything that is not free in Linux. This only excludes support provided by professionals, and giving an "opensuse evaluation version" type choice. The problem? The tendency of capitalist interests to shut down and take over non-capitalist offers...

[Bandit]

Ah but if CNR is so great then opening the code wouldn't be a problem since the SERVICE wouldn't be replacable by competitors right ?

If you think someone else could offer a better service and thus you close your code, you ARE slowing the evolution of technology. It comes down to micorsoft and apple's strategies of making sure no one can compete with them on their own grounds. Sure the products are nice but they hate competition (understandable). On the other hand I am for 100% free competition and thus I stand my ground.

Also, if CNR was open source, the community could improve it and Linspire could also take what the other projects added/improved and add it to THEIR service.

Anyway, Mr. Carmony said the whole secret was that 5% was the software and 95% was server side.

It's okay that they charge for the service, but open the damn code for the love of Thor !

I never said CNR wa so great. The idea behind it is though.
If you think you can do better then start coding, write your own software.
While your at it, start your own business, pay the licensing fees for all the patents.. Its your choice. Many here might even use your service.
Why should CNR open its code? They have the right to choose what license they wish to use. Dont they have a right of choice?
Cheers,
Joe

[Kevin Carmony]

Now I'm interested. I had thought that CNR was just another packaging system, albeit one better suited to non-geeks than apt-get. Does Linspire provide a list of enhanced packages?

Just visit the CNR Warehouse (http://www.linspire.com/products_cnr_whatis.php?tab=warehouse) and know that most of the top 100 or so applications have been touched by us. All the source code is available to anyone, and as I said, we make all our changes available upstream, but for obvious technical reasons, if you want the latest and greatest binaries, then you'd have to use CNR. This is why we'd have to do this special for Ubuntu, if we were to do it.

Kevin

[DrFunkenstein]

Based on that argument Kevin....Are you a Car Salesman?

Your selling me a product that , once I buy the product if I really want it to work, then I have to put more money into it. Microsoft does the same thing with Windows, capn. Buy XP, then Buy Office, then Buy Quickbooks or Quicken or whatever. Keep dumping money into a product that for all intents an purposes , should work out of the box. Novell does it. Red Hat does it. Ubuntu does it. Mandriva Does it.

What makes you different?
I really don't know what you're talking about. You have to pay a yearly subscribtion fee to be able to use CNR, but you won't have to pay for the free software in it (again, if I understand it correctly).

And guess what, you also have to pay to have access to additional software and updates for Novel, Red Hat and Mandriva.
So what on earth does Linspire do that makes you so angry?

[frodon]

Linspire users can, with their CNR subscription, purchase a legal and licensed DVD playback solution for $9.95. Some codec licensing we include in the CNR or Linspire fees, but DVD is quite expensive to us, so we have to charge additional for it. There are multiple licenses that we have to pay to legally provide a DVD playback solution.

This is why CNR users can get things like OpenOffice for no additional charge, but they have to pay extra for things like StarOffice, because WE have to pay. We do, however, make big discounts available for CNR Gold users. For example, they can get StarOffice here with one click for only $49.95, as opposed to the list price of $100.

By the way, you don't need to be a CNR subscriber to purchase commercial products with one click, so anyone could buy the DVD playback software, but we do offer discounts to subscribers.

KevinHere is the problem, i hate those concepts ... it's like saying DRM are fair !!!!!!!!!!
You shouldn't have to pay anything to get a software who play a dvd, i will never give up in front of those concepts !!!
If you want to spend money, well .... make donation for some open source projects and so you will offer something to the others, if i give money to CNR i help a company to make benefits which is really different.

CNR is clearly evil for me and i hope that the users will have the choice to use CNR in ubuntu (because of freedom principle) and won't use it.

[Kevin Carmony]

I've found GUI package managers like Synaptic to be very clunky compared to using apt on the command line. How does CNR's interface compare to that of package managers like YaST and Synaptic?

Of course I say it's vastly better, but the only way to really know is to try it yourself. Email me for a coupon code for a free copy of Linspire and then try CNR free for 15 days.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

*****WARNING - NOOB COMMENT! - MAY NOT MAKE SENSE OR EVEN BE CORRECT!*****

So basically, this would be an "add-on" as opposed to being part of the Ubuntu install?

Correct. You'd have to 1) know it exists, and 2) use apt to even get the CNR client.

Now, I'm sure someone will take the client, put it into Ubunut, and release CNRbuntu! But, that's the beauty of Ubuntu, Linux and open source.

Kevin

[dabear]

I really don't see why we need CNR. In Ubuntu Dapper Drake, we got gdebi, which can be set up to auomatically handle the installation of debs - and dependencies. If someone (like in Europe) made a web page with debs to install propitary stuff, what would be the difference (other than the implementation) between CNR and gdebi? Installation of open source programs? For that we have synaptic.

[Bragador]

I never said CNR wa so great. The idea behind it is though.
If you think you can do better then start coding, write your own software.
While your at it, start your own business, pay the licensing fees for all the patents.. Its your choice. Many here might even use your service.
Why should CNR open its code? They have the right to choose what license they wish to use. Dont they have a right of choice?
Cheers,
Joe

See, if I wanted to do that I'd have to start from scratch WHICH backs my claim that it slows evolution. Linux is all about building on what already exists, not about inventing the wheel each time. Sharing knowledge is the most important thing for me. Free knowledge to whoever wants to learn.

But like you also said, if I wanted to compete, I'd have to hire people, build the whole setting, do my marketing, etc etc etc. Not an easy task when CNR is known for its 4 years of experience and great support.

I say all codes must be open, all knowledge shared, all secrets revealed.

You want to make money with that ? Make sure you have the best service out there (like CNR is doing right ?). If CNR is closed source, I'm pretty sure it's because someone else could do a better job.

Anyway I'm not against it being offered I voted for it. Don't count on me for telling my friends to use it though. If the code was open, it would be a different topic altogether.

edit: also remember if CNR was open and I decided to create a software too (which I wouldn't since I'm no programmer), Linspire would also have the right to use my code.

[DrFunkenstein]

Here is the problem, i hate those concepts ... it's like saying DRM are fair !!!!!!!!!!
You shouldn't have to pay anything to get a software who play a dvd, i will never give up in front of those concepts !!!

Paying for mp3 or dvd decryption is the only way to offer these things legaly, so how is a company doing this evil?

[pchan42]

I would like the choice. I am a new user and haveing trouble loading new apps. I have used CNR and like its ease of use.

[Kevin Carmony]

To Bandit :

I disagree with your logic.

If you took the time to talk to your friends about linux and its softwares you wouldn't need companies making private softwares. I also wouldn't recommand CNR to anybody that knows or can learn how to work with other ways.

Keeping your code private doesn't help linux in my mind, it SLOWS its progress.

Good luck with that. My mother would send you packing, as would zillions of other people. She's not going to spend 2 minutes learning how to install Firefox, let alone hours and hours. Is my mother evil?

So, the choice YOU want to leave my poor ol' mum are:

- Keep using MS software
- Spend hours taking a Linux course
- Don't use a computer until open source solutions are as easy to use as other choices

=(

Don't say "learning apt is easy." Even if it only took just 5 minutes to learn, most people have no interest in that, and we know installing Linux software is NOT that easy.

I'm curious...do you grow all your own food? Sew all your own clothes? Cut your own hair? Fix your own car? Work on your own teeth when you get a cavity?

This would be like a dentist saying, "Anyone who doesn't want to take the time to learn how to remove plaque and clean their own teeth doesn't have a right to clean teeth. It's easy to learn to do, and then you could do it for free."

Kevin

[Bandit]

You shouldn't have to pay nothing to get a software who play a dvd
Here is the problem. You have to pay a licensing fee on software that may infrindge on a persons patent here in the US or you are BREAKING THE LAW.
CNR can provide you with a legal means to view your DVD's and such.
If you dont agree with this thats to bad. The law is the law.
If you wish to keep using libdvdcss, then you honestly are no better then the grafitie artist that keeps spray painting everthing in site.
Cheers,
Joe

[towsonu2003]

Paying for mp3 or dvd decryption is the only way to offer these things legaly
News News News: Not everyone lives in America... ;)

[Bragador]

Good luck with that. My mother would send you packing, as would zillions of other people. She's not going to spend 2 minutes learning how to install Firefox, let alone hours and hours. Is my mother evil?

So, the choice YOU want to leave my poor ol' mum are:

- Keep using MS software
- Spend hours taking a Linux course
- Don't use a computer until open source solutions are as easy to use as other choices

=(

Don't say "learning apt is easy." Even if it only took jsut 5 minutes to learn, most people have no interest in that, and we know installing Linux software is NOT that easy.

Kevin

hehe I like how you explain things.

I would answer your comment by saying "Who told your mother about linux and free software?".
You always have friends that can help you and install softwares for you. That's what I did for my parents. I also took 5 mins to explain to them how the open softwares worked and why it was better than MS. Also, if they had questions I was there for them. I'm sure you would do the same thing for your poor mother ;)

If I do that to my friends and they do that to theirs, there is no problem.

I do agree an alternative to "apt" would be good though. I also never said CNR was evil. If people are ready to pay for it fine, but I wouldn't encourage them since it's closed source.

[frodon]

Paying for mp3 or dvd decryption is the only way to offer these things legaly, so how is a company doing this evil?I'm sad to hear that.

Do you really beleive what you said ? :
the only way

[John.Michael.Kane]

@Kevin Carmony I'm one of those users who would rather spend the time reading a linux book to learn how linux works rather then clik, and go. if this means a few hours or a few days so be it. however i understand there are those who would want your clik and go method..

[Kevin Carmony]

Like I siad. I think this is a great idea and if you can speak to Mark that would be nice.
Cheers,
Joe

As I mentioned in my post, I have already spoken with Mark about this, and we both like the idea. I wouldn't have posted here had I not spoken with Mark. (By the way, Mark and I spoke about this a few weeks ago, I only made this post now, because it was brought up in my other post, so I thought now was a good time to bounce it off this group.)

Kevin

[frodon]

If you wish to keep using libdvdcss, then you honestly are no better then the grafitie artist that keeps spray painting everthing in site.
Cheers,
JoeIt's not illegal in my country ;)

[towsonu2003]

Don't say "learning apt is easy." Even if it only took just 5 minutes to learn, most people have no interest in that, and we know installing Linux software is NOT that easy.
It takes 5 minutes to learn how to use Internet Explorer... please...


I'm curious...do you grow all your own food? Sew all your own clothes? Cut your own hair? Fix your own car? Work on your own teeth when you get a cavity?what's up with personal remarks?


This would be like a dentist saying, "Anyone who doesn't want to take the time to learn how to remove plaque and clean their own teeth doesn't have a right to clean teeth. It's easy to learn to do, and then you could do it for free."they actually tend to say that [guy goes to dentist with no teeth left in mouth, dentist says: "it was your fault, you didn't brush your teeth"]

[DrFunkenstein]

I'm sad to hear that.

Do you really beleive what you said ? :
Huh?
Yes I do and yes it is the only legal way in many countries.
Your point?

[towsonu2003]

Wasn't one of the mottos of ubuntu "we will always provide software for free"? I started to think the conspiracy theorists were right about Mark (as he "liked" the idea)...

[welsh_spud]

I really love the idea of having CNR available for Ubuntu. I know I would use and pay for it. The Ubuntu repo's are great for getting most software that is opensource. The main problem with the repo's are that they only change every six months when Ubuntu is updated. CNR is constantly update which means no more hacks to get Firefox 1.5, or OO.org 2.0 installed.

Also, and this is main reason I want CNR, with CNR you can easily install other 3rd party/non-free programs such as Americas Army, Skype, Win4Lin and Cedega, just as easily as you would install something that is opensource (and in the repo's) like XMMS.

The price of $20/year seems like a bargain to me. That is just over £10, the price of a nice shirt from the high-street, and for that $20 you get updates for all those 3rd party programs without waitng (and praying) that someone makes a HOWTO to install the new software.

[Kevin Carmony]

I think your mistaking me taking choices away, I condone the concept of giving users a choice. When you offer Openoffice to your users, do you tell them that there is actually a Free Version of the product, rather than just trying to sell it to them? Do you tell your users that there are free versions for everything that CNR gives you? Do they have that choice? Im not taking choice away from the user by saying so. Im stating that the user should have it, wether it be Linspire, Ubuntu, whatever. If the user wants to pay money for it, that is the users well given right. But they also have a right to know that what they are paying for is given freely and openly somewhere else. It may not be supported, and youd think youd at least offer the user that choice, but from all Ive seen, you push CNR and you push your membership fees and no where do I see that the user is made aware that they also have free alternatives to what you offer within your own distribution.

You keep making this about free. This has nothing to do with free in my mind. This has to do with 98% of the world can't get to free Linux software today, and they have zero interest in learning how.

Linux software is like gold on the moon, it's great if you know how to get to it. Besides, Linux is only "free" if your time has no value. Most people consider their time MORE valuable than money. Money can be created, but time has an expiration date on it and is limited.

When I go to buy a hamburger, does McDonalds tell me first, "Now, you DO know you can make a hamburger at home for less money, right?" When I get the oil changed in my car, does someone say to me, "Now, you DO know you could change this oil yourself for free, right?" And if they did, I'd say, "I don't care. I don't have time for you to show me how to do that. Would you please stop wasting my valuable time and change the oil in my car?"

If apt were the same as CNR, you'd be right, but it's far from the same thing. I won't rehash all the points I have already made as to the difference.

You think that if we said to people, "Before buying this service, click here to learn how to do this for free," that everyone would click the link and then spend the hours to do it "for free." I think you'd be wrong. 98% wouldn't, and the other 2%, the kind of people who are willing to mess around with their computer ALREADY KNOW full well that this stuff can be had for "free" IF they want to spend the time to do that.

If we did a survey of our existing CNR subscribers, and asked, "Did you know you could have done this using apt for free" and the choices were "Yes" or "No - whats apt?" You'd agree we could not worry about those who said yes, right? Because they already knew. OK, so now, let's now ask those who said No, and we ask them, "Would you have preferred to learn how to do all the things CNR does for free?" and then let them know that it will be hours of investment, finding software, codecs, etc. How many do you really think are going to say yes to that question? Probably the same number who want to learn how to change the oil in their car.

Kevin

[Stormy Eyes]

Of course I say it's vastly better, but the only way to really know is to try it yourself. Email me for a coupon code for a free copy of Linspire and then try CNR free for 15 days.

I think I'll do that, and try it in Qemu. :)

[bored2k]

My answer:
I'd love it. Please consider offering CNR for Ubuntu!

[towsonu2003]

The price of $20/year seems like a bargain to me.
Isn't $20 a year a little bit too much just for installing codecs and updating Firefox and OpenOffice instead of searching the forums? If this will be the case (I don't like it), at least the price should be adjusted for international standards.

[PapaWiskas]

To Kevin:

I sent you a PM here because I was not sure how to get your email.

[super]

The key is that the choice would totally be yours.
exactly!

i probably wouldn't use it but i'm sure other people would. they should have the option.

[Bragador]

Tow: Yes but his point is that people don't want to wait a couple of months for updates and they don't want to go in forums if they really need the updates. This is why they need to pay 20$ (for proprietary software, my only complaint).

[Kevin Carmony]

Ah but if CNR is so great then opening the code wouldn't be a problem since the SERVICE wouldn't be replacable by competitors right ?

Right. But it would open up all the things we do to talk to our servers, etc.

Kevin

[PapaWiskas]

not waiting six months is a definite plus for someone like me, who stumbles around all the time, afraid he is going to break something....LOL

[Kernel Sanders]

@Kevin

The only problem is that this idea would be a great one.......if CNR, and all the software it installs was free! As its not, (I take it CNR itself wont be free either?) the majority of Linux users wont be interested.

The fact that Linux is free, along with the likes of Open Office and Gimp being free, is what draws a lot of people. If Linux and its very good software wasnt free, then A LOT would have just toughed it out with MS and Apple.

Your also tied by the fact that this is a LINSPIRE product, and as they are the biggest bunch of douchbags to ever touch the Linux kernal, your going to have a problem peddling anything that bunch of wankers come up with.

- John \\:D/

[towsonu2003]

they should have the option.
As long as money (CNR) doesn't take over freedom (Ubuntu)...

[Kevin Carmony]

You have a very good point Kevin. :)
Like I stated, its all about zen.
Linux must find a middle ground to succeed.

And in my view, as long as there is CHOICE and no one is FORCING anyone to do anything, you have Zen.

Kevin

[Alterion]

Well i have no problem with CNR being added to the mutlipverse repsotiory alongside crossover office and co- heck i may even use it (BTW on the fly spell check in FF sounds cool go google spell bound and give them the code and i'm sure they would update thier extension). I would have a problem if CNR was included on the ubuntu cd- promoted as a product that ubuntu people should buy in anyway or forced upon me in anyway eg i wouldn;t want the trial loaded by default like norton anti-virus trials on windows- $20 a year sounds a nice enough price point that i might even consider trying it (finally why arn;t the debain repositories updated on a daily basis too- it would be reaaly cool to have a dily updated "community" repo where anyone could compile .deb's form thier source code and upload it into)

[Rotarychainsaw]

Yeah.... hmmmm. It's a tough one. I really like being able to watch videos on ubuntu. But I don't like paying for stuff. tough choice indeed. yarr

[GeneralZod]

Your also tied by the fact that this is a LINSPIRE product, and as they are the biggest bunch of douchbags to ever touch the Linux kernal, your going to have a problem peddling anything that bunch of wankers come up with.


I think we can do without the pointless ad hominems :)

Oh, and for the record I would happily pay $20 a year for nice, up-to-date and near-guaranteed-working apps, but then I live in the UK and this is about the cost of two take away Chinese meals :)

Edit:

The sole thing I don't like is that the client is not open-source, but then, neither is ut04 so no big deal!

[Bragador]

Right. But it would open up all the things we do to talk to our servers, etc.

Kevin

OH.... THAT....

So it's a security issue then. I can understand that. Since I like to bring counter arguments I'll say hackers could then find a way to abuse your system since nobody is testing it for security though. I guess this is why open beta tests are important. If you want to open the code eventually, might I suggest to use a separate computer and offer a beta of the next release for 6 months and let everybody test the service and the code. I bet tons of hackers would love to break the system and help you make it safer.

But security by obscurity is a popular concept these days ;)

[Sirin]

This is huge! I think we should be doing CNR: Ubuntu Edition, because you can see screenshots of what the app looks like before you download it, see reviews of what people had to say about it, install Lphoto (my mouth is drooling for this ATM :D) with the click of a mouse... Do it, Kevin, DO IT! :D

This will reduce the times that I have to help my sister/mother install this application, and that application, and so on... :cool:

[Yagisan]

I'm going to be blunt. I maintain packages for a game. The doomsday engine. I notice you sell it here http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_details.php?product_id=23087 in your cnr werehouse. I don't know if it is based off my packages or not, frankly I don't care. However, obviously no one at linspire has ever read the license for that software, because COMMERCIAL REDISTRIBUTION IS FORBIDDEN . Now, I'd like to draw you attention to the following license file, which is in the upstream tarball.

HERETIC / HEXEN SOURCE CODE LICENCE
-----------------------------------

SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT

IMPORTANT - READ CAREFULLY: USE OF THIS PROGRAM IS SUBJECT TO THE
SOFTWARE LICENSE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW. “PROGRAM” INCLUDES ALL
SOFTWARE INCLUDED WITH THIS AGREEMENT, THE ASSOCIATED MEDIA, ANY
PRINTED MATERIALS, AND ANY ON-LINE OR ELECTRONIC DOCUMENTATION, AND
ANY AND ALL COPIES OF SUCH SOFTWARE AND MATERIALS. BY OPENING THIS
PACKAGE, INSTALLING, AND/OR USING THE PROGRAM AND ANY SOFTWARE PRGRAMS
INCLUDED WITHIN, YOU ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE WITH ACTIVISION,
INC. (“ACTIVISION”).

LIMITED USE LICENSE. Subject to the conditions described below,
Activision grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited
right and license to install and use one copy of this Program solely
and exclusively for your personal use. All rights not specifically
granted under this Agreement are reserved by Activision and, as
applicable, Activision’s licensors. This Program is licensed, not
sold, for your use. Your license confers no title or ownership in this
Program and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in this
Program.

LICENSE CONDITIONS.
You shall not:

* Exploit this Program or any of its parts commercially.

* Use this Program, or permit use of this Program, on more than one
computer, computer terminal, or workstation at the same time.

* Make copies of this Program or any part thereof, or make copies of
the materials accompanying this Program.

* Use the program, or permit use of this Program, in a network,
multi-user arrangement or remote access arrangement, including any
online use, except as otherwise explicitly provided by this Program.

* Sell, rent, lease or license any copies of this Program, without
the express prior written consent of Activision.

* Remove, disable or circumvent any proprietary notices or labels
contained on or within the Program.

OWNERSHIP. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property
rights in and to this Program and any and all copies thereof
(including but not limited to any titles, computer code, themes,
objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases,
locations, concepts, artwork, animation, sounds, musical compositions,
audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related
documentation, and “applets” incorporated into this Program) are owned
by Activision, affiliates of Activision or Activision’s licensors.
This Program is protected by the copyright laws of the United States,
international copyright treaties and conventions and other laws. This
Program contains certain licensed materials and Activision’s licensors
may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this
Agreement.

PROGRAM UTILITIES. This Program contains certain design, programming
and processing utilities, tools, assets and other resources (“Program
Utilities”) for use with this Program that allow you to create
customized new game levels and other related game materials for
personal use in connection with the Program (“New Game Materials”).
The use of the Program Utilities is subject to the following
additional license restrictions:

You agree that, as a condition to your using the Program Utilities,
you will not use or allow third parties to use the Program Utilities
and the New Game Materials created by you for any commercial purposes,
including but not limited to selling, renting, leasing, licensing,
distributing, or otherwise transferring the ownership of such New Game
Materials, whether on a stand alone basis or packaged in combination
with the New Game Materials created by others, through any and all
distribution channels, including, without limitation, retail sales and
on-line electronic distribution. You agree not to solicit, initiate or
encourage any proposal or offer from any person or entity to create
any New Game Materials for commercial distribution. You agree to
promptly inform Activision in writing of any instances of your receipt
of any such proposal or offer.

If you decide to make available the use of the New Game Materials
created by you to other gamers, you agree to do so solely without
charge.

New Game Materials may be created only if such New Game Materials can
be used exclusively in combination with the retail version of the
Program. New Game Materials may not be designed to be used as a stand-
alone product.

New Game Materials must not contain any illegal, obscene or defamatory
materials, materials that infringe rights of privacy and publicity of
third parties or (without appropriate irrevocable licenses granted
specifically for that purpose) any trademarks, copyright-protected
works or other properties of third parties.

All New Game Materials must contain prominent identification at least
in any on-line description and with reasonable duration on the opening
screen: (a) the name and E-mail address of the New Game Materials’
creator(s) and (b) the words “THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE OR SUPPORTED
BY ACTIVISION.”

WARRANTY INFORMATION. THIS PROGRAM IS PROVIDED AS IS. ACTIVISION AND
ITS AFFILIATES MAKE NO WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, WHETHER ORAL OR
WRITTEN, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING ANY WARRANTY OF
MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR NON-INFRINGEMENT,
AND NO OTHER REPRESENTATIONS OR CLAIMS OF ANY KIND SHALL BE BINDING ON
OR OBLIGATE ACTIVISION OR ITS AFFILIATES.

LIMITATION ON DAMAGES. IN NO EVENT WILL ACTIVISION OR ANY AFFILIATES
OF ACTIVISION BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL
DAMAGES RESULTING FROM POSSESSION, USE OR MALFUNCTION OF THE PROGRAM,
INCLUDING DAMAGES TO PROPERTY, LOSS OF GOODWILL, COMPUTER FAILURE OR
MALFUNCTION AND, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL
INJURIES, EVEN IF ACTIVISION HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
SUCH DAMAGES. ACTIVISION’S LIABILITY SHALL NOT EXCEED THE ACTUAL PRICE
PAID FOR THE LICENSE TO USE THIS PROGRAM. SOME STATES/COUNTRIES DO NOT
ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS AND/OR THE
EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THE
ABOVE LIMITAIONS AND/OR EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY MAY NOT
APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU
MAY HAVE OTHER RIGHTS WHICH VARY FROM JURISDICTION TO JURISDICTION.

TERMINATION. Without prejudice to any other rights of Activision, this
Agreement will terminate automatically if you fail to comply with its
terms and conditions. In such event, you must destroy all copies of
this Program and all of its component parts.

U.S. GOVERNMENT RESTRICTED RIGHTS. The Program and documentation have
been developed entirely at private expense and are provided as
“Commercial Computer Software” or “restricted computer software.” Use,
duplication or disclosure by the U.S. Government or a U.S. Government
subcontractor is subject to the restrictions set forth in subparagraph
(c)(1)(ii) of the Rights in Technical Data and Computer Software
clauses in DFARS 252.227-7013 or as set forth in subparagraph (c)(1)
and (2) of the Commercial Computer Software Restricted Rights clauses
at FAR 52.227-19, as applicable. The Contractor/Manufacturer is
Activision, Inc., 3100 Ocean Park Boulevard, Santa Monica, California
90405.

INJUNCTION. Because Activision would be irreparably damaged if the
terms of this Agreement were not specifically enforced, you agree that
Activision shall be entitled, without bond, other security or proof of
damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of
this Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Activision may
otherwise have under applicable laws.

INDEMNITY. You agree to indemnify, defend and hold Activision, its
partners, affiliates, licensors, contractors, officers, directors,
employees and agents harmless from all damages, losses and expenses
arising directly or indirectly from your acts and omissions to act in
using the Product pursuant to the terms of this Agreement

MISCELLANEOUS. This Agreement represents the complete agreement
concerning this license between the parties and supersedes all prior
agreements and representations between them. It may be amended only by
a writing executed by both parties. If any provision of this Agreement
is held to be unenforceable for any reason, such provision shall be
reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable and the
remaining provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected. This
Agreement shall be construed under California law as such law is
applied to agreements between California residents entered into and to
be performed within California, except as governed by federal law and
you consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of the state and federal
courts in Los Angeles, California.

If you have any questions concerning this license, you may contact
Activision at 3100 Ocean Park Boulevard, Santa Monica, California
90405, (310) 255-2000, Attn. Business and Legal Affairs,
legal@activision.com
I've bolded the relevant parts. Now, I wonder if you do compliy with the licenses of all the code in your cnr werehouse ?

Personally, I'd only be intrested in stuff in cnr that is not in ubuntu main/restricted/universe/multiverse. It would be unethical (but not illegal) to sell the same items as in the repositories. I for one, do my best to avoid dealing with unethical businesses (it's not hard to be an ethical business either - I'm doing rather well at that.)

[towsonu2003]

Oh, and for the record I would happily pay $20 a year for nice, up-to-date and near-guaranteed-working apps, but then I live in the UK and this is about the cost of two take away Chinese meals :)
Good point (relative expensiveness). $20 is not good for some other countries. at all.

[Kevin Carmony]

My view is if i wanted to use CNR i would use Linspire. Now i've tried linspire before and thought it was pretty good. Easy to install, everything was set up and working (graphics and wireless) out of the box. But then i looked at how to install stuff and fround CNR. I then saw that it was a subscription service and that really put me off...especially when i knew i could get the same stuff FREE using a different distro.

So i ended up here using Ubuntu. And while things may not be as 'easy' to do we have an amazing community to help new comers as well as the extremly thorough Wiki. And just by searching and asking questions i've learnt how to set up my graphics card, i've been able to set up my wireless using ndiswrapper. I can also just load up synaptic and search for different programs, select it and then click apply and it downloads and installs it and i can remove programs just as easily.

Ubuntu is the distro that does everything that other os's do but is a real FREE alternative with no sudden charges popping up (CNR).


My thoughts. Feel much better now i've said that.


No, Ubuntu is the distro that does everything YOU need it to do. My mother wouldn't be able to use it.

This is why choice is good, and there is a place for both Linspire, Ubuntu, Gentoo, etc.

You may be right, however, in that if ease of use is a factor, just have them use Linspire. And if they don't need something like CNR, use Ubuntu. What Mark and I were wondering is, is there a need for Ubuntu to have CNR. The answer may very well be no.

However, if "Ubuntu" ever wants to expand beyond the 2% techie market, they will need something like CNR, even if not from us.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Thanks for the input and good discussion. I need to get to a meeting right now, but I'll be back tonight and try to catch up!

Kevin

[towsonu2003]

I'm going to be blunt. I maintain packages for a game. The doomsday engine. I notice you sell it here http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_details.php?product_id=23087 in your cnr werehouse. I don't know if it is based off my packages or not, frankly I don't care. However, obviously no one at linspire has ever read the license for that software (...)
LICENSE CONDITIONS.
You shall not:
* Exploit this Program or any of its parts commercially.
oh boy...

Thanks for the input and good discussion. I need to get to a meeting right now, but I'll be back tonight and try to catch up!
lol
j/k

[welsh_spud]

Isn't $20 a year a little bit too much just for installing codecs and updating Firefox and OpenOffice instead of searching the forums? If this will be the case (I don't like it), at least the price should be adjusted for international standards.

What I was trying to say was, don't you just love it when you can select about fifty things in Synaptic to install, leave your computer on overnight and wake up to a computer that has automagically installed KDE and all the extra goodies that come with it. CNR is that, but for 3rd party proprietary software.

[Kevin Carmony]

I'm going to be blunt. I maintain packages for a game. The doomsday engine. I notice you sell it here http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_details.php?product_id=23087 in your cnr werehouse. I don't know if it is based off my packages or not, frankly I don't care. However, obviously no one at linspire has ever read the license for that software, because COMMERCIAL REDISTRIBUTION IS FORBIDDEN . Now, I'd like to draw you attention to the following license file, which is in the upstream tarball.

HERETIC / HEXEN SOURCE CODE LICENCE
-----------------------------------

SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT

IMPORTANT - READ CAREFULLY: USE OF THIS PROGRAM IS SUBJECT TO THE
SOFTWARE LICENSE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW. “PROGRAM” INCLUDES ALL
SOFTWARE INCLUDED WITH THIS AGREEMENT, THE ASSOCIATED MEDIA, ANY
PRINTED MATERIALS, AND ANY ON-LINE OR ELECTRONIC DOCUMENTATION, AND
ANY AND ALL COPIES OF SUCH SOFTWARE AND MATERIALS. BY OPENING THIS
PACKAGE, INSTALLING, AND/OR USING THE PROGRAM AND ANY SOFTWARE PRGRAMS
INCLUDED WITHIN, YOU ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE WITH ACTIVISION,
INC. (“ACTIVISION”).

LIMITED USE LICENSE. Subject to the conditions described below,
Activision grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited
right and license to install and use one copy of this Program solely
and exclusively for your personal use. All rights not specifically
granted under this Agreement are reserved by Activision and, as
applicable, Activision’s licensors. This Program is licensed, not
sold, for your use. Your license confers no title or ownership in this
Program and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in this
Program.

LICENSE CONDITIONS.
You shall not:

* Exploit this Program or any of its parts commercially.

* Use this Program, or permit use of this Program, on more than one
computer, computer terminal, or workstation at the same time.

* Make copies of this Program or any part thereof, or make copies of
the materials accompanying this Program.

* Use the program, or permit use of this Program, in a network,
multi-user arrangement or remote access arrangement, including any
online use, except as otherwise explicitly provided by this Program.

* Sell, rent, lease or license any copies of this Program, without
the express prior written consent of Activision.

* Remove, disable or circumvent any proprietary notices or labels
contained on or within the Program.

OWNERSHIP. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property
rights in and to this Program and any and all copies thereof
(including but not limited to any titles, computer code, themes,
objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases,
locations, concepts, artwork, animation, sounds, musical compositions,
audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related
documentation, and “applets” incorporated into this Program) are owned
by Activision, affiliates of Activision or Activision’s licensors.
This Program is protected by the copyright laws of the United States,
international copyright treaties and conventions and other laws. This
Program contains certain licensed materials and Activision’s licensors
may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this
Agreement.

PROGRAM UTILITIES. This Program contains certain design, programming
and processing utilities, tools, assets and other resources (“Program
Utilities”) for use with this Program that allow you to create
customized new game levels and other related game materials for
personal use in connection with the Program (“New Game Materials”).
The use of the Program Utilities is subject to the following
additional license restrictions:

You agree that, as a condition to your using the Program Utilities,
you will not use or allow third parties to use the Program Utilities
and the New Game Materials created by you for any commercial purposes,
including but not limited to selling, renting, leasing, licensing,
distributing, or otherwise transferring the ownership of such New Game
Materials, whether on a stand alone basis or packaged in combination
with the New Game Materials created by others, through any and all
distribution channels, including, without limitation, retail sales and
on-line electronic distribution. You agree not to solicit, initiate or
encourage any proposal or offer from any person or entity to create
any New Game Materials for commercial distribution. You agree to
promptly inform Activision in writing of any instances of your receipt
of any such proposal or offer.

If you decide to make available the use of the New Game Materials
created by you to other gamers, you agree to do so solely without
charge.

New Game Materials may be created only if such New Game Materials can
be used exclusively in combination with the retail version of the
Program. New Game Materials may not be designed to be used as a stand-
alone product.

New Game Materials must not contain any illegal, obscene or defamatory
materials, materials that infringe rights of privacy and publicity of
third parties or (without appropriate irrevocable licenses granted
specifically for that purpose) any trademarks, copyright-protected
works or other properties of third parties.

All New Game Materials must contain prominent identification at least
in any on-line description and with reasonable duration on the opening
screen: (a) the name and E-mail address of the New Game Materials’
creator(s) and (b) the words “THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE OR SUPPORTED
BY ACTIVISION.”

WARRANTY INFORMATION. THIS PROGRAM IS PROVIDED AS IS. ACTIVISION AND
ITS AFFILIATES MAKE NO WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, WHETHER ORAL OR
WRITTEN, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING ANY WARRANTY OF
MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR NON-INFRINGEMENT,
AND NO OTHER REPRESENTATIONS OR CLAIMS OF ANY KIND SHALL BE BINDING ON
OR OBLIGATE ACTIVISION OR ITS AFFILIATES.

LIMITATION ON DAMAGES. IN NO EVENT WILL ACTIVISION OR ANY AFFILIATES
OF ACTIVISION BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL
DAMAGES RESULTING FROM POSSESSION, USE OR MALFUNCTION OF THE PROGRAM,
INCLUDING DAMAGES TO PROPERTY, LOSS OF GOODWILL, COMPUTER FAILURE OR
MALFUNCTION AND, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL
INJURIES, EVEN IF ACTIVISION HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
SUCH DAMAGES. ACTIVISION’S LIABILITY SHALL NOT EXCEED THE ACTUAL PRICE
PAID FOR THE LICENSE TO USE THIS PROGRAM. SOME STATES/COUNTRIES DO NOT
ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS AND/OR THE
EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THE
ABOVE LIMITAIONS AND/OR EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY MAY NOT
APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU
MAY HAVE OTHER RIGHTS WHICH VARY FROM JURISDICTION TO JURISDICTION.

TERMINATION. Without prejudice to any other rights of Activision, this
Agreement will terminate automatically if you fail to comply with its
terms and conditions. In such event, you must destroy all copies of
this Program and all of its component parts.

U.S. GOVERNMENT RESTRICTED RIGHTS. The Program and documentation have
been developed entirely at private expense and are provided as
“Commercial Computer Software” or “restricted computer software.” Use,
duplication or disclosure by the U.S. Government or a U.S. Government
subcontractor is subject to the restrictions set forth in subparagraph
(c)(1)(ii) of the Rights in Technical Data and Computer Software
clauses in DFARS 252.227-7013 or as set forth in subparagraph (c)(1)
and (2) of the Commercial Computer Software Restricted Rights clauses
at FAR 52.227-19, as applicable. The Contractor/Manufacturer is
Activision, Inc., 3100 Ocean Park Boulevard, Santa Monica, California
90405.

INJUNCTION. Because Activision would be irreparably damaged if the
terms of this Agreement were not specifically enforced, you agree that
Activision shall be entitled, without bond, other security or proof of
damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of
this Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Activision may
otherwise have under applicable laws.

INDEMNITY. You agree to indemnify, defend and hold Activision, its
partners, affiliates, licensors, contractors, officers, directors,
employees and agents harmless from all damages, losses and expenses
arising directly or indirectly from your acts and omissions to act in
using the Product pursuant to the terms of this Agreement

MISCELLANEOUS. This Agreement represents the complete agreement
concerning this license between the parties and supersedes all prior
agreements and representations between them. It may be amended only by
a writing executed by both parties. If any provision of this Agreement
is held to be unenforceable for any reason, such provision shall be
reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable and the
remaining provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected. This
Agreement shall be construed under California law as such law is
applied to agreements between California residents entered into and to
be performed within California, except as governed by federal law and
you consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of the state and federal
courts in Los Angeles, California.

If you have any questions concerning this license, you may contact
Activision at 3100 Ocean Park Boulevard, Santa Monica, California
90405, (310) 255-2000, Attn. Business and Legal Affairs,
legal@activision.com
I've bolded the relevant parts. Now, I wonder if you do compliy with the licenses of all the code in your cnr werehouse ?

Personally, I'd only be intrested in stuff in cnr that is not in ubuntu main/restricted/universe/multiverse. It would be unethical (but not illegal) to sell the same items as in the repositories. I for one, do my best to avoid dealing with unethical businesses (it's not hard to be an ethical business either - I'm doing rather well at that.)


I'll look in to this and we'll remove it.

Kevin

[Kernel Sanders]

I think we can do without the pointless ad hominems :)

Oh, and for the record I would happily pay $20 a year for nice, up-to-date and near-guaranteed-working apps, but then I live in the UK and this is about the cost of two take away Chinese meals :)

I live in the UK too! \\:D/

What I was getting at was Linux's strength comes from its freedom, and the fact that its free as in beer. CNR is neither of those things, so IMHO will be difficult to peddle to the general user base.

Apologies if my distain for Linspire overshadowed my original (Valid IMHO) point, but after I read that they tried **THIS** (http://www.comparesoft.com/products.html) and the fact that they feel that they were **JUSTIFIED** (http://forum.linspire.com/viewtopic.php?t=415990) makes me hate them more than Microsoft's Corporate Ethics Department.

[towsonu2003]

Apologies if my distain for Linspire overshadowed my original (Valid IMHO) point, but after I read that they tried **THIS** (http://www.comparesoft.com/products.html) and the fact that they feel that they were **JUSTIFIED** (http://forum.linspire.com/viewtopic.php?t=415990) makes me hate them more than Microsoft's Corporate Ethics Department.
OMG... WT*? 69.95? wow.

thanks for the insightful post.

Note: this was a serious comment

[Bandit]

News News News: Not everyone lives in America... ;)
I know that. Thats why I stated in a ealier post (in the US).
For those that live in the UK were the patent laws dont apply I truley envy you.
Cheers,
Joey

EDITED for Spelling :)

[Arktis]

To Kevin Carmony:

I don't think introducing a closed source method to installing proprietary software in an extremely ignorant-friendly way is what I would call a step forward. I am also suprised that Mark Shuttleworth thinks it is a good idea as you say. I am not particularly pleased about this at all. Linux is a powerful driving force for the creation and adoption of free and open alternatives. If you make the adoption of already mainstream proprietary stuff on Linux easy, then you are hurting the future of open alternatives.

And why the opinion polling? Why not just simply go ahead and offer it if it's so great? I think you have watched the Ubuntu Community closely, as I'm sure many companies have, and decided that the community here holds a very large mindshare with Ubuntu users and even the Linux community as a whole. So this is the reason for the idea introduction and polling. You know how some people might feel about this and you also know that this is a key place to be if you want to successfully introduce something.

Please keep your CNR at least 100 yards away from my Ubuntu at all times.

[DrFunkenstein]

I live in the UK too! \\:D/

What I was getting at was Linux's strength comes from its freedom, and the fact that its free as in beer.

But you are aware that Launchpad isn't free software either?
And you are aware that Red Hat and Novel are actually quite expensive and far from being free as in beer?

[bored2k]

1. Linspire supports dozens of proprietary applications, drivers and codecs that you may want to have access to. MP3, DVD, Real Audio, Windows Media, Quick Time, Java, Flash, nVidia, ATI, Bitstream fonts, and so on. For example, right out of the box, Linspire users have access to all these different file types. With CNR, you could, with one click, deliver all this capability to your Ubuntu computer. Although I'd be lying if I said that installing these type of packages still give the headaches it gave me before I learned how to do it, I completely understand and agree with Kevin C. on how "You could more easily set up your non-technical friends with Ubuntu. 98% of the world will no way take the time to learn how apt-get works.". Just recently I heard an advanced user (college teacher and programmer) -wrongly- argument on how linux wasn't ever going to be popular because not everyone wants to learn nor want to type code down in a terminal just to do the things usually done by simple mouse usage. Although I tried my best at explaining to him how much we have advanced, it would have been N times easier to just say "Listen, there's this "thing" called CnR which is arguably easier than anything you've ever tried on any operating system. And for what you get without the need of having to plunge into a CLI and/or reading manuals, it's mad cheap and comfortable.

I think it'd be a great move for both Ubuntu and Linspire. Would I absolutely need CnR to run my system? Not necessarily. No, not really. Would I consider paying the small fee just to ease my relatives into using Linux? That'd make for a great option. $20 dollars ain't cheap, but it would surely be a good investment for people making the transition. Heck, CNR leaves a first impression of linux a lot better than "Ok, go to Applications --> Accesories --> Terminal. Oh, they changed the location? Ok, uhm... hit Alt+F2 and type gnome-terminal, now type (...). *15 minutes later* And that's it! Wasn't it easy to setup MP3 support?!"

[Stormy Eyes]

You may be right, however, in that if ease of use is a factor, just have them use Linspire. And if they don't need something like CNR, use Ubuntu. What Mark and I were wondering is, is there a need for Ubuntu to have CNR. The answer may very well be no.

On the other hand, it looks to me like Linspire is somewhat KDE-centered, as opposed to Ubuntu's focus on GNOME. I don't care for KDE or its apps, but I personally wouldn't mind having access to CNR on a GNOME-centric Linux.

[endersshadow]

I think that Ubuntu users are, in general, not terrified of the command line and/or apt-get, and generally love Synaptic. It truly blows away yum and Fedora's up2date or whatever the hell it's called...I always got that flashing ! and it never did anything...anyway, not my point...

I think where Linspire could fit in as a very lucrative business for other Linux distributions is legally selling the proprietary multimedia codecs (dvd, win32, etc.) packaged for the major Linux distributions (Ubuntu, Gentoo, Debian, Fedora, etc.), and possibly for the major BSD distributions. I think what you'll find is that the Ubuntu community will generally resist an attempt to make Ubuntu Linspire-esque. No offense to you or your people, but you've been sort of villified and portrayed as the red-headed stepchild of Linux distributions, commercial or not, so you're going to experience a lot of resistance whenever you try to step into any other distribution.

The best thing that I think you could do is sell multimedia codecs for, say $10. I'm not sure what your contracts are, but even if it were $20, I would most definitely pay for that if it were a one-time fee. I've tried contacting the owners of the codecs and they wanted nothing to do with me...it happens. But I think that the biggest mistake you can make, Kevin, is staying with the CNR brand with other distributions. The Penguin Liberation Front has always been a little shady legally, so I wouldn't go under that or anything remotely similar, either. However, a solid brand of, oh, I don't know, say, TuxMedia, would be a fantastic effort. (By the way, I just made TuxMedia up out of the blue, I haven't been thinking about this for too long.) At any rate, for the other non-commercial distributions, you can create a simple GUI to grab the packages, and have it support the main distribution methods: emerge, apt, yum, yast, etc. On install, it either selects it for you, or you can select it yourself, and then it gets the appropriate repositories as necessary. You already have the hardest part done: Getting the contracts. All you need to do is make a GUI for it (hell, even a CLI tool would be great), and you're off to the races.

By the way, I expect 10% royalties on any proceeds coming from such a program. Only kidding...or am I? :-D

[towsonu2003]

But you are aware that Launchpad isn't free software either?
And you are aware that Red Hat and Novel are actually quite expensive and far from being free as in beer?
redhat -> centos and fedora ; novel -> opensuse

and I do not apt-get launchpad. Mark Shuttleworth recently clearly stated that launchpad will be released under GPL soon (can't find link).

[dbott67]

First, let me preface this by saying that I am an IT professional for the past 15 years. The thread that led me here was from the guy who questioned whether it was ethical to charge his friend $30 for time & expertise to install & configure Ubuntu (his friend got a great deal, IMHO). I have been helping friends and family for many years and have only rarely received payment from a few friends/neighbours who realize the benefit of having a knowledgeable person help them out.

As for CNR, I think that this is a great option to have. Typically, those that oppose the idea are type G personalities (geeks, like me!) Type G's (myself included) like to know how things work; we don't like to just blindly 'click & pray' and wonder what the heck happened.

Kevin's CNR is a 'service'; it allows for easy location and installation of software. If you don't think it's required, search the forums for how many people can't find an application because they didn't enable the universe/multiverse/backports repositories. Less than $2.00 per month to easily find & install an application is a very FAIR and REASONABLE amount to charge. If the end-user wishes to purchase a commercial app, such as Star Office, then have that choice. They also have the choice to install the absolutely free version of OOo.

As Kevin has stated in previous posts, most people don't care how to fix the car, they just want to drive it. And when it comes time to change the oil, they could spend 10 minutes searching the web on how to change the oil on a 1973 Gremlin, but they'd rather pay $30.00 for the convenience of having Jiffy Lube do it. Same thing for their computers... they just want to use it.

A small (and optional) price to pay for a very convenient service for all those non-type G geeks out there that will enable software developers to be paid to develop and enhance software for the better. I wonder how any of us would feel if one day our employer asked us to work for free.

-Dave

PS - I do believe in supporting many of things that I currently enjoy for free. I pay an optional monthly fee of $2.00 to support a podcast that I enjoy, as well as purchasing a number of items from online stores of Ubuntu, Gnome and a few other Linux-related things.

[Kernel Sanders]

OMG... WT*? 69.95? wow.

thanks for the insightful post.

Was that a serious comment? Or a dig? :confused:

Because if you look you will find that CompareOffice IS Open Office! Not a cheap copy they were peddling, the actual program Open Office burnt onto a CD and sold for $69.95

CompareWeb IS Mozilla Firefox, burnt onto a CD, and sold for $49.95

Oh and when Kevin said he'd spoken to "Mark" I take it he meant Mark Shuttleworth?

[towsonu2003]

I think we need some input from automatix and EasyUbuntu people, who risk being taken over by CNR, if Mark likes the idea of selling subscription over providing free tools...

Important: I say Mark Shuttleworth, because I am too lazy to check the correct spelling for his last name. That's my bad, sorry.

[towsonu2003]

Was that a serious comment? Or a dig? :confused:

it was an extremely serious comment...

[Stormy Eyes]

I think we need some input from automatix and EasyUbuntu people, who risk being taken over by CNR, if Mark likes the idea of selling subscription over providing free tools...

Why would they be "taken over"? Based on the discussion thus far, it appears that CNR will be strictly optional.

[towsonu2003]

Why would they be "taken over"? Based on the discussion thus far, it appears that CNR will be strictly optional.
you forget about capitalism :)

[DrFunkenstein]

redhat -> centos and fedora ; novel -> opensuse

Centos has nothing to do with Redhat and Fedora is different from Redhat, as is opensuse from the commercial Novel products.



and I do not apt-get launchpad. Mark recently clearly stated that launchpad will be released under GPL soon (can't find link).
No, you use a distro that does it's whole bugtracking and translations etc. on this non-free platfrom. And he stated that it will take some time before launchpad will be free.

[Kernel Sanders]

it was an extremely serious comment...

Sorry!

Just wondered if you got what I was trying to say thats all! *Sheepishly backs away* :oops:

Oh and i'll gladly put a wager on that Mark Shuttleworth knows nothing about this! Or maybe even who the hell Kevin Carmony is! :mrgreen:

[Bragador]

I just wish somebody would create OPENCNR for 20$ a year. But Mr. Carmony was able to get good and useful (hopefully) feedback from us and I'm sure it will greatly help Mr. Carmony in making business decisions when he decides to offer his services to the Ubuntu community.

Even though my opinion wasn't the same as Mr. Carmony's opinion, I'm really proud he listened to my vision and at least considered it.

Virtual meetings like these are what I like in the linux community. I doubt Bill Gates would drop by and say "hey linux dudes, so what's that I hear about you not liking my softwares ? Can I get some feedback so I can bring the points at my next meeting ?".

'nuff said

[towsonu2003]

Centos has nothing to do with Redhat and Fedora is different from Redhat, as is opensuse from the commercial Novel products. centos is the free'd fork of redhat as people were not happy with it being for-profit. I believe opensuse is supported extensively by Novell, which uses it as the testing platform.

[DrFunkenstein]

Oh and i'll gladly put a wager on that Mark Shuttleworth knows nothing about this! Or maybe even who the hell Kevin Carmody is! :mrgreen:
How about keeping this civil and polite?

[endersshadow]

I think we need some input from automatix and EasyUbuntu people, who risk being taken over by CNR, if Mark likes the idea of selling subscription over providing free tools...

Important: I say Mark, because I am too lazy to check the correct spelling for his last name. That's my bad, sorry.

1. EasyUbuntu is illegal in the United States to install proprietary codecs.

2. It's Shuttleworth.

[DrFunkenstein]

centos is the free'd fork of redhat as people were not happy with it being for-profit.

It's an inofficial rebuild of the Redhat sources. You know, you could do the same thing with the Linspire sources if you wanted to.



I believe opensuse is supported extensively by Novell, which uses it as the testing platform.
Yes, but that does make it the same as the commercial Novel offerings exactly how?

[Bragador]

endersshadow : haha, that's what you get for living in the states blehblehbleh :P

[Stormy Eyes]

you forget about capitalism :)

And you forget that I think capitalism, if bound by an ethic that respects individual rights, is a good thing. But let's not threadjack. I doubt Mr. Carmony needs to come back and wade through 69 posts arguing the pros and cons of capitalism, with a few "Ayn Rand was a nutter" posts for spice.

[maruchan]

The way I see it, it's only a matter of time before serious professional services spring up around Ubuntu. Kevin, if you want to be there before everyone else, so much the better for you.

I've never used CNR, but I would love to use CNR if it had the ability to easily transform Ubuntu into a specific type of system, e.g. a 3D modeling system, music system, or financial tracking system.

Example: If I could install Ubuntu, connect to CNR, and easily set up a box to be a complete Music workstation (with a low-latency kernel if possible), I would *gladly* pay $20. Per year, even. I'm not necessarily thinking of this for myself, but for friends who would be interested in having someone set this up for them. No matter how much I like to tool around with my own PC, doing it for someone else gets to be a hassle quickly.

[Kernel Sanders]

How about keeping this civil and polite?

Who's not being civil and polite? I gave my opinion earlier, with clear reasons for it, and commented that (as an endnote to my original far longer opinion) as Linspire isnt particularly popular as a company, and that will be in a hinderence in peddling this to the masses.

It is unfortunate that I allowed my distain of Linspire to show through in my earlier post by describing them as "douchbags" and "wankers" but I quickly apologised for that ill advised outburst.

Call me a cynic, but when some Linspire employee registers here to tell us that he has just spoke to "Mark" (like Mark Shuttleworth is some kind of personal friend of his), and that they are both excited by the prospect of linking up a proprietary subscription based service with Ubuntu, I take the whole thing with a pinch of salt.......

- John

[Bragador]

The way I see it, it's only a matter of time before serious professional services spring up around Ubuntu. Kevin, if you want to be there before everyone else, so much the better for you.

I've never used CNR, but I would love to use CNR if it had the ability to easily transform Ubuntu into a specific type of system, e.g. a 3D modeling system, music system, or financial tracking system.

Example: If I could install Ubuntu, connect to CNR, and easily set up a box to be a complete Music workstation (with a low-latency kernel if possible), I would *gladly* pay $20. Per year, even. I'm not necessarily thinking of this for myself, but for friends who would be interested in having someone set this up for them. No matter how much I like to tool around with my own PC, doing it for someone else gets to be a hassle quickly.

But then you would create another product like Mac OS or windows. If all software is open source on linux and people are making money out of that, then you are truly offering a different product with a different way of doings things. Linux is all about being different.

[DrFunkenstein]

Who's not being civil and polite?

You are. Implying someone is a liar without any prove, just minutes after you called this person names is neither civil, nor polite.


Call me a cynic, but when some Linspire employee registers here to tell us that he has just spoke to "Mark" (like Mark Shuttleworth is some kind of personal friend of his), and that they are both excited by the prospect of linking up a proprietary subscription based service with Ubuntu, I take the whole thing with a pinch of salt.......

I'll simply call you uninformed. Mark Shuttleworth has talked to Linspire folks several times. I'm sure you'll find stuff about this on the forum. Oh, and if you are interested, hit google, I even remember seeing photos of them together.

[Iandefor]

Why would they be "taken over"? Based on the discussion thus far, it appears that CNR will be strictly optional. In addition, I think CNR's main benefit would actually be to provide legal sources for codecs and the like. Currently, if I feel like watching a DVD on my Ubuntu installation, my only recourse is to install some illegal css cracking software. From what I can see, CNR would have legal software to accomplish that, albeit at a cost.

[shakin]

I would consider using CNR if it offered specialized packages of software.

Eg. I would love a CNR Ruby + Rails + Lighttpd + MySQL package with the newest stable versions of each, all configured to work together out of the box. The package can always install/upgrade the newest stable version.

Another package might be the PHP + Apache + MySQL setup.

This concept can be brought further with packages that install everything needed for a file server or print server or firewall, etc. Configuration is the key since that's the hard part. Apt won't help setting up firewall rules or getting Rails working on fastcgi.

[Bragador]

But then would people from countries where the legal dispute is not applicable have to pay for the rights too ?

[bored2k]

In addition, I think CNR's main benefit would actually be to provide legal sources for codecs and the like. Currently, if I feel like watching a DVD on my Ubuntu installation, my only recourse is to install some illegal css cracking software. From what I can see, CNR would have legal software to accomplish that, albeit at a cost.
Which is the cost everyone playing DVDs and other non-free codecs who live in the United States should be paying, thus the need for a legal way to do it.

[towsonu2003]

In addition, I think CNR's main benefit would actually be to provide legal sources for codecs and the like. Currently, if I feel like watching a DVD on my Ubuntu installation, my only recourse is to install some illegal css cracking software. From what I can see, CNR would have legal software to accomplish that, albeit at a cost.
If we are to make CNR officially part of Ubuntu, it is good only for US newbies. We need another service for non-US newbies that is the same as CNR but free. If The CEO is right about how easy and good CNR is, than non-US people will want CNR (minus legal stuff) as much as US people. If we were to offer CNR with fee to non-US people, who don't need to pay for the codecs, than we will end up discriminating against them.

If CNR will be something like Automatix or EasyUbuntu (not promoted by Ubuntu itself, but only by the community members who like them), than (as I mentioned before) I don't care (though I won't use it myself).

[endersshadow]

I'll simply call you uninformed. Mark Shuttleworth has talked to Linspire folks several times. I'm sure you'll find stuff about this on the forum. Oh, and if you are interested, hit google, I even remember seeing photos of them together.

Shuttleworth even hits up IRC every now and again to chat it up with us common folk. He really reaches out to the community and cares about it. He's a pretty grounded guy, and that's saying a lot for a multi-billionaire.

And Iandefor: Stop goofing off in school.

[Iandefor]

Which is the cost everyone playing DVDs and other non-free codecs who live in the United States should be paying, thus the need for a legal way to do it. I'm sorry, but I don't see why somebody using a non-free codec should necessarily have to pay to use that codec. Could you explain a little bit more clearly what you mean here?

[bonzodog]

Oh and i'll gladly put a wager on that Mark Shuttleworth knows nothing about this! Or maybe even who the hell Kevin Carmony is! :mrgreen:

John, hunt through the archives. Kevin and Mark are very good friends, and they met last year at a convention, and there is a post in here with a photo of Kevin and Mark together.
The post is here:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=47436

[Iandefor]

Shuttleworth even hits up IRC every now and again to chat it up with us common folk. He really reaches out to the community and cares about it. He's a pretty grounded guy, and that's saying a lot for a multi-billionaire.

And Iandefor: Stop goofing off in school. Last I checked, you didn't write my schedule. I don't have school today or tomorrow.

[Kernel Sanders]

**Originally Posted by *John*
Who's not being civil and polite?**

You are. Implying someone is a liar without any prove, just minutes after you called this person names is neither civil, nor polite.

**Originally Posted by *John*
Call me a cynic, but when some Linspire employee registers here to tell us that he has just spoke to "Mark" (like Mark Shuttleworth is some kind of personal friend of his), and that they are both excited by the prospect of linking up a proprietary subscription based service with Ubuntu, I take the whole thing with a pinch of salt.......**

I'll simply call you uninformed. Mark Shuttleworth has talked to Linspire folks several times. I'm sure you'll find stuff about this on the forum. Oh, and if you are interested, hit google, I even remember seeing photos of them together.

WOW...... :rolleyes:

As you seem to be intent on starting an inappropriate personal arguement with me, this will be my last post on this matter.

Point 1) I *NEVER* called Kevin "a liar" or directed *ANY* personal insults towards him, you are the only one behaving like that in this thread.

Point 2) I am entitled to my opinion, and in this thread I have given my opinion with clear reasoning on the issue at hand, and my opinion on how truthful I believe Kevin's claims to be. Its my opinion, and as this is a discussion forum, and my opinion is wholey relevent to the issue in question, I am well within my rights to give it.

[endersshadow]

I'm sorry, but I don't see why somebody using a non-free codec should necessarily have to pay to use that codec. Could you explain a little bit more clearly what you mean here?

You of all people...because someone owns the copyrights to those codecs and they are proprietary. Under the law of the United States, you must pay a licensing fee in order to use them. He's saying that you necessarily have to pay that fee in order to be legal here in the US. It's like the pirating music vs. buying music...except we have no choice but to pirate because they won't sell the licenses individually...

And I'll bet you don't have school...

[bored2k]

If we are to make CNR officially part of Ubuntu, it is good only for US newbies. We need another service for non-US newbies that is the same as CNR but free. If The CEO is right about how easy and good CNR is, than non-US people will want CNR (minus legal stuff) as much as US people. If we were to offer CNR with fee to non-US people, who don't need to pay for the codecs, than we will end up discriminating against them.

If CNR will be something like Automatix or EasyUbuntu (not promoted by Ubuntu itself, but only by the community members who like them), than (as I mentioned before) I don't care (though I won't use it myself).
I heavily disagree. Just because I am seasoned enough to work my way through installing things a green user would not, doesn't mean that I am a masochist that prefers doing things the long and more complicated way than just a -as advertised- mouse click! Also, remember that the main worry of both Kevin C. and Mark S. is the usability of their systems for both seasoned users and green as a dollar users. Besides the fact that certain rules also apply countries outside of the United States, the question would be if an Indonesian user, who has none or close to no problems regarding software and legality would be willing to pay $20 for a service which would ease up their linux experience.

[Kernel Sanders]

John, hunt through the archives. Kevin and Mark are very good friends, and they met last year at a convention, and there is a post in here with a photo of Kevin and Mark together.
The post is here:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=47436

But dont you find Mark Shuttleworth's personal aims with Ubuntu, and the concept that Ubuntu is founded on, a little incompatible with linking a subscription based piece of proprietary software with it?

Thats where my suspicion comes from...... :confused:

[Bragador]

I'll ask my question again. Does it mean non US residents have to pay for the rights too ?

If so, there is a problem. The world is not the united states.

[bored2k]

I'm sorry, but I don't see why somebody using a non-free codec should necessarily have to pay to use that codec. Could you explain a little bit more clearly what you mean here?
It is not legal to distribute and use codecs like libdvdcss in the United States of America. The "why?" goes out of our scope and it's been also discussed numerous times elsewhere.

[Stormy Eyes]

But dont you find Mark Shuttleworth's personal aims with Ubuntu, and the concept that Ubuntu is founded on, a little incompatible with linking a subscription based piece of proprietary software with it?

As long as CNR is strictly optional, how is its availability contradictory to Ubuntu Linux's stated ideals?

[bored2k]

--

This is just a reminder to certain people who I will *not* mention directly: This is thread is not about who's being polite or not. Anything other than the main topic can and has to be dealt with outside this thread. If anyone considers that someone else is being impolite, please report the post instead of calling the person out.

--

[endersshadow]

I'll ask my question again. Does it mean non US residents have to pay for the rights too ?

If so, there is a problem. The world is not the united states.

Depends on the country you live in. In your native Québec? I believe so. Each country has different copyright laws and the codecs are copyrighted only in certain countries. The US is by far the biggest market for computers, etc. at this time, that's just a fact of life. The only reason people always stipulate it with "It's illegal in the US" is because that most of the users are in the US, and that most of the global users come from all over, so it's very hard to just list all of the countries that it is/is not legal in. Check Canada's copyright laws. I'm not sure if Québec has different copyright laws than those that reside in Ottawa, but I'd recommend checking them both out before thinking that just because you live outside the US, you can do whatever you want with them.

[Bandit]

I'm sorry, but I don't see why somebody using a non-free codec should necessarily have to pay to use that codec. Could you explain a little bit more clearly what you mean here?
Patent laws, patent laws, patent laws. Its your choice, just becuase a stop sign is at the end of a road doesnt mean you have to stop at it. The world will not come to a sudden end and everything will not seist to exist. But if you get caught you have to pay the price for breaking the law.
Same goes for the use of libdvdcss. This nice peice of software decrypts encrypted DVD's. Here in the US of A that is illegal becuase it infrindges upon a patent that someone has already esstablished. Patents are bad. A patent can cover a way of doing something or even a idea behind performing a task. Which in this case is decrypting a DVD that is encrypted using CSS technology. Thus even tho the creater of CSS technology did not make libdvdcss, to use it legally you must pay the patent holder of CSS a nominal fee to license the software. If not and you live in the US you ARE breaking the law.

I would recommend anyone who has not read up on the current patent laws and live here in the US to take a good look at the US Patent and Trademark laws at their website found here before posting anymore. http://www.uspto.gov/

Cheers,
Joey

[frodon]

I heavily disagree. Just because I am seasoned enough to work my way through installing things a green user would not, doesn't mean that I am a masochist that prefers doing things the long and more complicated way than just a -as advertised- mouse click! Also, remember that the main worry of both Kevin C. and Mark S. is the usability of their systems for both seasoned users and green as a dollar users. Besides the fact that certain rules also apply countries outside of the United States, the question would be if an Indonesian user, who has none or close to no problems regarding software and legality would be willing to pay $20 for a service which would ease up their linux experience.I disagree, why not just improving apt which don't really need to be improved (my opinion), we don't need (i mean as a part of ubuntu) a non-free software which do the same thing, it's interesting only for US people who have to pay dvd playback and other things.
CNR should just be a compatible option mainly for US people but shouldn't be a part of ubuntu, but fortunately it won't be.

[Iandefor]

You of all people...because someone owns the copyrights to those codecs and they are proprietary. Under the law of the United States, you must pay a licensing fee in order to use them. He's saying that you necessarily have to pay that fee in order to be legal here in the US. It's like the pirating music vs. buying music...except we have no choice but to pirate because they won't sell the licenses individually...

And I'll bet you don't have school...
*Vitriolic post goes bye-bye!*

But thank you. I wasn't aware of the licensing fee.

[Bragador]

Depends on the country you live in. In your native Québec? I believe so. Each country has different copyright laws and the codecs are copyrighted only in certain countries. The US is by far the biggest market for computers, etc. at this time, that's just a fact of life. The only reason people always stipulate it with "It's illegal in the US" is because that most of the users are in the US, and that most of the global users come from all over, so it's very hard to just list all of the countries that it is/is not legal in. Check Canada's copyright laws. I'm not sure if Québec has different copyright laws than those that reside in Ottawa, but I'd recommend checking them both out before thinking that just because you live outside the US, you can do whatever you want with them.

Thanks I'll do that !

Also I believe most users are actually in asia.

[TeeAhr1]

Wow, what a great thread! Personally, I love apt and Synaptic, but I can definitely see the draw of CNR for people who (a) live in America and want a legal means of installing proprietary, non-free software, like media codecs, and/or (b) don't feel the need to "fix their own car," as Kevin put it. No, it's not open-source, but neither is, for instance, the nvidia driver, and who here uses that? Thought so. Hell, this could be what I've been waiting for to push my girlfriend into Linux!

Definitely, if an Ubuntu version of CNR came with the same 15-day free run that Linspire users get, I would try it. I have a very hard time believing that it could replace apt for me, but if they play well together, and CNR really lives up to the hype, would that service be worth $20 a year to me? Quite possibly.

And make no mistake, that's what you're paying for, a service. We all know what free software's about, but to have it "signed, sealed, and delivered" via something like CNR would be, to many people, an invaluable service, and well worth $20.

[towsonu2003]

I heavily disagree. Just because I am seasoned enough to work my way through installing things a green user would not, doesn't mean that I am a masochist that prefers doing things the long and more complicated way than just a -as advertised- mouse click! Also, remember that the main worry of both Kevin C. and Mark S. is the usability of their systems for both seasoned users and green as a dollar users. Besides the fact that certain rules also apply countries outside of the United States, the question would be if an Indonesian user, who has none or close to no problems regarding software and legality would be willing to pay $20 for a service which would ease up their linux experience.
so the Indonesian user doesn't deserve this ease of use because codecs are free in his/her country? this seems to be unfair... edit: outrageous...

[endersshadow]

Thanks I'll do that !

Also I believe most users are actually in asia.

Asia has more people, but the US has more Linux users:

http://counter.li.org/reports/arearank.php?orderby=users#table



For one, I wasn't asking about codecs that charge to be licensed. I was asking about codecs that are NON-FREE, ie, are not LICENSED UNDER THE GPL but are not necessarily charged for.

And don't ******* pretend you know the circumstances of my absence from school this day, Eric. Lemme let you in on a pretty good hint as to why I'm not in school: The only person even in my school today is probably the director if he has a meeting. Everybody else is gone. In fact, Eric, I could probably give you my school's number if you really felt like calling up Daniel or Lee or whoever's in the office today and ask where the hell everybody is.

Those non-free codecs aren't generally legal to grab for free (as in beer). We have them available, but they're pirated versions, sunshine.

And I was just picking on you about school, I know you'd never skip :-D

[towsonu2003]

Asia has more people, but the US has more Linux users:
http://counter.li.org/reports/arearank.php?orderby=users#table

this is irrelevant.

what's relevant is:
if it's gonna be easy for US users (with the legal requirements met), than it's gotta be easy for other users as well (with legal requirements met).

Legal requirements? Non-US people don't have to pay for codecs and stuff!

[Iandefor]

And I was just picking on you about school, I know you'd never skip :-D I need to get a sense of humour, ne :-D?

And I reread your post more carefully and edited my post accordingly.

[endersshadow]

this is irrelevant.

No it's not...it was in response to Bragador, not you. It's like you're illiterate, but just can write. That's a scary thing.


I need to get a sense of humour, ne ?

And I reread your post more carefully and edited my post accordingly.

Yes, yes you do.

[Bragador]

lol I doubt that 138160 users can prove your point. Especially on an english only website.:mrgreen:

Anyway we still have the right to vote with our wallet. I support open source and thus will not use CNR. But of course I'll never stop someone from using it (well perhaps a little if there are alternatives ;))

[towsonu2003]

No it's not...it was in response to Bragador, not you. It's like you're illiterate, but just can write. That's a scary thing.

yep, I know it wasn't to me. but it was an important point you made about how Linux is being shaped: for US users. That's why I picked on you :)
but, as to the personal attack of me being "illiterate": well, uhmm, I agree on that point, considering how many times I edit my own posts for grammar errors... [edited] [edited again] [again]

[endersshadow]

yep, I know it wasn't to me. but it was an important point you made about how Linux is being shaped: for US users. That's why I picked on you :)

The point I made was about the codecs laws, not about Linux as a whole. You forget that Linux was written by an ethnic Swede in Finland. All I was pointing out was why we don't specify the litany of places that it's illegal, especially on an English-based web site. ¿Verdad?

You editted while I was typing, no fair. It was a joke--obviously you're literate, as you can write, thereby defying illiteracy--my point was that it was in response to something totally different than what Linux is aimed at and rather why when we discuss codecs we always stipulate "Illegal in the US, but check your country's copyright laws if you're outside of it."

People are taking my jokes all wrong today...first Ian, now you...I'm hurt...

[Bragador]

The point I made was about the codecs laws, not about Linux as a whole. You forget that Linux was written by an ethnic Swede in Finland. All I was pointing out was why we don't specify the litany of places that it's illegal, especially on an English-based web site. ¿Verdad?

Linus is not from Sweden
http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds

[endersshadow]

Linus is not from Sweden
http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds

Oh, for the love of...he's an ethnic Swede, but a native of Finland. As I'm an ethnic Irish/English/Scottish/Welsh/French/Mohawk Indian but a native of the US.

[Bragador]

Because he can speak swedish he is an ethnic ?

[towsonu2003]

you / we are seriously forking the topic of the thread

[Iandefor]

you / we are seriously forking the topic of the thread This is very true.

So:

Kevin, I think that providing CNR services for Ubuntu wouldn't be a bad idea. I wouldn't use it (apt works lovely for me), but I think it could be very helpful for people who are new to Ubuntu and Linux to have a tool like CNR available.

[tarball]

I've been following the thread and I have several points:

If people want CNR ease of use, why don't they use Lindows instead of Ubuntu?

If people want CNR with a Gnome based distro, why don't Linspire produce an Gnome based version of Lindows?

Have Linspire possibly just looked at the rocketing popularity of Ubuntu (No 1 on distrowatch) and not so impressive Lindows (No 23) and thought 'there's gold in them Ubuntu hills'?

As a free alternative, what about Klik (http://klik.atekon.de/)?

[Michael_Valentine]

Great idea, most of my Computer run Linspire at home and a few have Ubuntu. I subscribe to CNR and think it's worth every penny. It's all about choice for me. The more the better! :)

[DrFunkenstein]

If people want CNR ease of use, why don't they use Lindows instead of Ubuntu?

Why should they not simply use Ubuntu if the prefer it and use CNR?


If people want CNR with a Gnome based distro, why don't Linspire produce an Gnome based version of Lindows?

Probably not economically viable. And how is that an argument against offering CNR as an option for Ubuntu users who want it?


Have Linspire possibly just looked at the rocketing popularity of Ubuntu (No 1 on distrowatch) and not so impressive Lindows (No 23) and thought 'there's gold in them Ubuntu hills'?

Could your last sentence simply be a flamebait?

[Bragador]

I've been following the thread and I have several points:

If people want CNR ease of use, why don't they use Lindows instead of Ubuntu?

If people want CNR with a Gnome based distro, why don't Linspire produce an Gnome based version of Lindows?

Have Linspire possibly just looked at the rocketing popularity of Ubuntu (No 1 on distrowatch) and not so impressive Lindows (No 23) and thought 'there's gold in them Ubuntu hills'?

As a free alternative, what about Klik (http://klik.atekon.de/)?

Why did you think he had to come here and talk to us ? He had to stop the bad vibes, bring good vibes and then follow through with his marketing of CNR. I think he's brilliant actually.

[Michael_Valentine]

Have Linspire possibly just looked at the rocketing popularity of Ubuntu (No 1 on distrowatch) and not so impressive Lindows (No 23) and thought 'there's gold in them Ubuntu hills'?

From the FAQ section of Distrowatch:

What is this "Page Hit Ranking"?

It is a lighthearted way of looking at a popularity of any given distribution. Since each distribution has its own page, I decided to track the number of visitors viewing individual web pages. The HPD figure represents hits per day by unique visitors, the emphasis being on the word unique; the uniqueness is determined by the visitor's IP address. This prevents those visitors, not disciplined enough, from rigging the results by reloading the pages multiple times. The idea is to identify which distributions attract most attention and to rank them accordingly. This also introduces an element of competition and competitions are fun, aren't they? Admittedly, the page clicks by themselves may not always reflect the popularity correctly. They are also "seasonal", meaning that distribution currently in beta testing will often receive much more clicks than the one past the stable release. All in all, these numbers should, over time, provide an indication about the popularity of Linux distributions.

These rules have been implemented to prevent various counter reloading schemes:

* Repeated page and counter reloads in short or regular intervals are not allowed. If you are inclined to set up cronjobs to repeatedly wget your favourite distro's page counter, then please do yourself a favour and go to see a psychologist. You need help.
* All suspicious page hit counts will be investigated and any regularly reloaded counts will be deducted from the total count.
* The repeat offender's IP address will be banned from accessing all areas of DistroWatch, including mirrors, for a period of 30 days.

[Iandefor]

Because he can speak swedish he is an ethnic ? I'll answer for Eric here: Because his family's origins lie in Sweden from not too terribly long ago he is an ethnic Swede. But if you want to continue this tangent, PM me. This thread has strayed wildly and it's about time for it to get back on topic.

[bored2k]

so the Indonesian user doesn't deserve this ease of use because codecs are free in his/her country? this seems to be unfair... edit: outrageous...
I didn't mean it that way. What I meant was that since the Indonesian user would not care if it's legal or not in the US, would he be willing to pay for a service that would just ease things up.

[beast2k]

I'm sorry but it sounds like your talking about synaptic I just don't see the difference between them. Paying $20/year for something we allready have for free just isn't logical. Your asking aptget users to use clicknrun, aptget is allready the easyest (free & open) package management system in linux especially with synaptic. synaptic was created ages ago to make things easy so your a bit late. You should really be asking this question on the fedora or mandriva forums they really could use an alternative package management system. Also is the clicknrun software open? if so, fine, sign ubuntu up and we'll call it an alternative, if it isn't open, adding closed source software to ubuntu in an attemt to make it easier will only serve to make you money and little else, people need education on how linux works not clicknrun. If we fill linux with closed source software we'll be right back where we started using windows but instead it will be called linux. Come to think of it, every distro on earth could have their own "warehouse" and once people came to depend on clicknrun (and you know they would people are lazy by nature) it would put all the controll firmly with linspire and I think one microsoft is enough thanks (this last part is just a "what if").:cry:

[Bragador]

Have Linspire possibly just looked at the rocketing popularity of Ubuntu (No 1 on distrowatch) and not so impressive Lindows (No 23) and thought 'there's gold in them Ubuntu hills'?

From the FAQ section of Distrowatch:

What is this "Page Hit Ranking"?

It is a lighthearted way of looking at a popularity of any given distribution. Since each distribution has its own page, I decided to track the number of visitors viewing individual web pages. The HPD figure represents hits per day by unique visitors, the emphasis being on the word unique; the uniqueness is determined by the visitor's IP address. This prevents those visitors, not disciplined enough, from rigging the results by reloading the pages multiple times. The idea is to identify which distributions attract most attention and to rank them accordingly. This also introduces an element of competition and competitions are fun, aren't they? Admittedly, the page clicks by themselves may not always reflect the popularity correctly. They are also "seasonal", meaning that distribution currently in beta testing will often receive much more clicks than the one past the stable release. All in all, these numbers should, over time, provide an indication about the popularity of Linux distributions.

These rules have been implemented to prevent various counter reloading schemes:

* Repeated page and counter reloads in short or regular intervals are not allowed. If you are inclined to set up cronjobs to repeatedly wget your favourite distro's page counter, then please do yourself a favour and go to see a psychologist. You need help.
* All suspicious page hit counts will be investigated and any regularly reloaded counts will be deducted from the total count.
* The repeat offender's IP address will be banned from accessing all areas of DistroWatch, including mirrors, for a period of 30 days.

Then again "may not always" also means it generally is.

[angkor]

I think choice is good, yet I wouldn't use it myself. I don't mind a cnr for Ubuntu as long as its an add-on and not included.

@Aysiu: I smell a poll here...;)

[Michael_Valentine]

Distro popularity is all in the eye of the beholder IMHO. As long as your using Linux it's 100% Ok with me. Linux provides choice, Windows provides......hmmmm!!!!! Read my sig! :)

[tarball]

Why should they not simply use Ubuntu if the prefer it and use CNR?
Ok, I'll rephrase. What does Ubuntu with CNR offer over and above Lindows?


Probably not economically viable. And how is that an argument against offering CNR as an option for Ubuntu users who want it?
I wouldn't have thought offering a different window manager would have that much of an economic overhead. And, It was 'an argument against offering CNR' because earlier responses to 'why not use Lindows?' were that Lindows is based on KDE not Gnome.


Could your last sentence simply be a flamebait?
Not at all, it is just a question. Ubuntu is enjoying a lot of popularity at the moment. Linspire are out to make money with their distro but have nowhere near the popularity. Does Linspire see Ubuntu as a way of cashing in on some of that popularity?

[DrFunkenstein]

Ok, I'll rephrase. What does Ubuntu with CNR offer over and above Lindows?

Being ubuntu, with a 6 month release cycle, a system you know, a community you know, etc..



I wouldn't have thought offering a different window manager would have that much of an economic overhead. It was 'an argument against offering CNR' because earlier responses to 'why not use Lindows?' were that Lindows is based on KDE not Gnome.

And how is that an argument against having CNR as an option available?



Not at all, it is just a question. Ubuntu is enjoying a lot of popularity at the moment. Linspire are out to make money with their distro but have nowhere near the popularity. Does Linspire see Ubuntu as a way of cashing in on some of that popularity?
I certainly hope they do as this is exactly what Canonical has always hoped would happen.

[KingBahamut]

You keep making this about free. This has nothing to do with free in my mind. This has to do with 98% of the world can't get to free Linux software today, and they have zero interest in learning how.

98% of the world is a stretch, Mon ami. There are millions of registered users. Popularity of linux (and most other unicies as well ) has grown to such a level to make a claim that 98% of the world doesnt know about it is utterly asinine. While I admit that the percentage is high, It isnt that High. Nor do users have Zero interest in learning about it. Again, another asinine statement.


Linux software is like gold on the moon, it's great if you know how to get to it. Besides, Linux is only "free" if your time has no value. Most people consider their time MORE valuable than money. Money can be created, but time has an expiration date on it and is limited.

This too is an oversight in statement. As the progression of the OS continues , the desireability of the OS becomes more paltable. Many users , even common users dont want a 4 click install. You can only dumb down the interface so far before a user will say, ok this is crap. And they will. It doesnt take that much time. It is a well known fact that Linux requires a learning curve, most of all the users of the OS aggree that this is something thats aggreeable.




When I go to buy a hamburger, does McDonalds tell me first, "Now, you DO know you can make a hamburger at home for less money, right?" When I get the oil changed in my car, does someone say to me, "Now, you DO know you could change this oil yourself for free, right?" And if they did, I'd say, "I don't care. I don't have time for you to show me how to do that. Would you please stop wasting my valuable time and change the oil in my car?"

A person has the choice, a known choice Kevin. They can get in their car, go to Mcdonalds get a burger, or they can stay home and cook one themselves. In Linspire there is only , here is your burger, you have to eat this burger, and there isnt really a need to know if there are any other choices available to you.


You think that if we said to people, "Before buying this service, click here to learn how to do this for free," that everyone would click the link and then spend the hours to do it "for free." I think you'd be wrong. 98% wouldn't, and the other 2%, the kind of people who are willing to mess around with their computer ALREADY KNOW full well that this stuff can be had for "free" IF they want to spend the time to do that.

No, what I am saying is, give your users that option. You cram all you can into your Warehouses to fit your users needs. Thats amicable. But as Yags pointed out about Doomsday, do you carefully select what goes in there? Do you pay attention to what should and should not go in there? So really the issue is about whats free and whats not free. What is and isnt distributable and whether or not thats ethical or not. It would seem a person as you, so concerned about the concept of ethics and the rights of the user would take this into account. Time , I can say quite honestly that time is more valuable than money. I can say without a doubt that with resources like the UDSF(http://doc.gwos.org), These forums (http://ubuntuforums.org) and The Official Wiki(http://wiki.ubuntu.com), that a normal user can save both time and money. Equally. The user has to be willing to read, and if all your doing is targetting end users that have a little understanding, your going to alienate yourelf into a group that for all purposes isnt very profitable. What I would ask is , how many Linspire Servers are there outside running? How much of a corporate presence do you have?


If we did a survey of our existing CNR subscribers, and asked, "Did you know you could have done this using apt for free" and the choices were "Yes" or "No - whats apt?" You'd agree we could not worry about those who said yes, right? Because they already knew. OK, so now, let's now ask those who said No, and we ask them, "Would you have preferred to learn how to do all the things CNR does for free?" and then let them know that it will be hours of investment, finding software, codecs, etc. How many do you really think are going to say yes to that question? Probably the same number who want to learn how to change the oil in their car.

Assuming that a user doesnt know about apt, or other such bits of info. Thats only because you dont offer to tell them that. Thats rooted in what you tell the user and what you dont. Users, common, intermediate, or advanced thrive on information. And honestly Kevin, CNR doesnt do it for free, it does it at a cost. No matter the variable of that cost, desireable or not, you still take that away from the user.

All that be said, I thank your time here, for listening, responding, and listening more Mr. Carmony.

[wazari5]

To All

This is my first time in the Ubuntu forums and this is the only thread I have read. I have to say what a dynamic and open forum this is. Now to get back on topic.

I am a Linspire user, I choose Linspire because of CnR and how easy it was for *me* to use Linux instead of MS. Linspire opened up Linux to me. If Ubuntu was to have the *option* of CnR then I would use Ubuntu for that very same reason. But at the moment Ubuntu scares the hebegebees out of me, I am not a geek or a command line install software person, I am an ex MS user who knows how to use a mouse.

I am sorry if I offend anyone in the Ubuntu forums with my lack of Linux skills but we all have to start somewhere. The next generation of Linux users also have to start somewhere and *if* CnR helps people to make that move from MS to Ubuntu, Linspire (insert fav distro here) then all the better.

On the pricing issue I don’t see $20 a being much money - regardless, but that my view only

On the CnR is not open source issue, then I am sure this debate will go on for a long time, the only thing I do know about Linspire is that they do give back to the open souce community http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_license.php#ope

That’s all I have to say

Waz

[beast2k]

M$ and Apple are multi million dollar corporations. They didn’t get on top buy being nice all the time. I honestly believe if Linux is going to survive in the corporate world and start taking a real foot hold in the market, then it will have to have a balance of good and bad. If we try to be "good" all the time and use only open source software and never use MP3 codecs or DVD decryption software and so one we will never succeed. There is always going to have to be some proprietary software out there. Sometimes it is a necessary evil. If we are ever, going to get hardware makers to start putting out better hardware drivers (proprietary or not) then we have to get Linux into a larger more financially feasible side of the market.
Cheers,
Joe
More truthful words have never been spoken, on this forum anyway.:KS

[Bragador]

To All

This is my first time in the Ubuntu forums and this is the only thread I have read. I have to say what a dynamic and open forum this is. Now to get back on topic.

I am a Linspire user, I choose Linspire because of CnR and how easy it was for *me* to use Linux instead of MS. Linspire opened up Linux to me. If Ubuntu was to have the *option* of CnR then I would use Ubuntu for that very same reason. But at the moment Ubuntu scares the hebegebees out of me, I am not a geek or a command line install software person, I am an ex MS user who knows how to use a mouse.

I am sorry if I offend anyone in the Ubuntu forums with my lack of Linux skills but we all have to start somewhere. The next generation of Linux users also have to start somewhere and *if* CnR helps people to make that move from MS to Ubuntu, Linspire (insert fav distro here) then all the better.

On the pricing issue I don’t see $20 a being much money - regardless, but that my view only

On the CnR is not open source issue, then I am sure this debate will go on for a long time, the only thing I do know about Linspire is that they do give back to the open souce community http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_license.php#ope

That’s all I have to say

Waz
Welcome to the forums ! And you might want to try a live cd of Ubuntu to get an idea of what it is.

I'm also glad you found a linux product that was made for you and welcome to the world of open source software !

[aysiu]

Good luck with that. My mother would send you packing, as would zillions of other people. She's not going to spend 2 minutes learning how to install Firefox, let alone hours and hours. Is my mother evil?

Don't say "learning apt is easy." Even if it only took just 5 minutes to learn, most people have no interest in that, and we know installing Linux software is NOT that easy. Using Synaptic Package Manager is easy enough for most people. I've outlined a little guide that takes less than five minutes to read:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/winuxinstall.php



I'm curious...do you grow all your own food? Sew all your own clothes? Cut your own hair? Fix your own car? Work on your own teeth when you get a cavity?

This would be like a dentist saying, "Anyone who doesn't want to take the time to learn how to remove plaque and clean their own teeth doesn't have a right to clean teeth. It's easy to learn to do, and then you could do it for free." No, it's not really like that at all. The dentist, car mechanic, and clothing manufacturer are all honest about what they charge you money for--services, physical items.

If you charge for Firefox, you should also be upfront about what you're charging for. Tell people clearly, "You can download this and install this yourself if you want. If you pay money, you get services, good packaging, and an easy installer." Same with Linspire or CNR--make it well known that people can download free distributions and use Synaptic Package Manager for free to apt-get stuff. Let them know that they're paying for convenience and user-interface, not for the software itself.

If you really advocate choice, be honest with your customers about what their choices are.

If people do, in fact, value money over time, they'll surely buy your product (which saves them time) even if you publicize the free option (which saves them money, not time).

A better analogy would be this:

One car mechanic gives you car parts for free but charges for the service of installing those car parts.

Another car mechanic sells you the car parts he gets for free and also charges for the service of installing those car parts.

Yet another car mechanic gives away the car parts for free but writes manuals telling you how to install those parts yourself.

The second car mechanic shouldn't make it sound as if she's giving you some kind of bargain if he's getting the parts free herself. He should be upfront about what she's charging you for--the convenience of having the parts installed for you. This is what the first car mechanic does.

I can assure you that if everyone in two knew about all three choices, they'd pick either the first car mechanic or the third car mechanic. No one would pick the second.

By the way, I think I'm taking Kevin's comment out of context and talking more about the OooFf thing. CNR is marketed pretty fairly:
What is CNR?
CNR stands for "click and run". It is a software delivery service designed for Linspire users that makes it easy to install Linux software.

With the CNR Service you can install more than 2,000 FREE Linux software titles direct from the CNR Warehouse - all with just a single click.

In fact, the CNR Service is the easiest way to install Linux software. Simply click the software you want and it installs on your computer and is ready to run.

And the CNR Service gives you more than just one-click access to tons of free software.

You also get a powerful, easy way to manage your entire software library. Like customizable aisles where you can install entire groups of software with a single click. Perfect for setting up a new computer!

[Michael_Valentine]

$20 is very little to pay for a service like CNR. Look at all the other services I pay for monthly...and trust me none are below $20:

TV
Internet
Electricity
Water
Phone

I guess some of these could be free if I choose to not make phone calls, use the internet, turn on the lights, flush the toilet or watch a TV show.

[pulp]

I would love to see more commercial applications for Linux. Although I love it, I do not get the point, why thousands of programmers spend thousands of hours to give their products to the people for free (beer). Kevin is right if he points out, that no one would even question the fact, that you have to pay for your beer, car, gas, pc, house, food etc. No one can pay his electricity bill of his programming prestige in the community. Most of the people seem to think, that gratious software is a human right.

And Doomsday itself isn't sold but the service of installing it. I think thats a difference but I may be wrong.

[Bragador]

Electricity is free. The service of giving it to you from far away costs money and the more electricity you use, the more you use the network. So they want a bigger contribution from you to improve and renew the network.

Making an open software is a collaboration to add what you like and want. Even games can be created like that. Look at battle for wesnoth.

[Bandit]

Kevin,
I know many users can only agree to disagree on this topic.
But if I think you offerd the service via your website with Marks permission of course. It would be a great idea.
For the users that dont want CNR's services, then they never have to worry or be botherd by it.
But for someone like my Mom, I would be very happy to set it up on her PC.
For most PC users they wouldnt want the service.
For windows users that dont know that much about linux this would be great for them as well.
I mean its not like your trying to force anything on them.
You can simply have Mark have the client side software for CNR in our current main repository.
That way the hardest thing most users would have to do it look up CNR in Apt and have it install it. Thats eaiser then winders up-date..
Cheers,
Joe

[commodore]

If Ubuntu will have CNR I will instantly stop using Ubuntu.

[Sirin]

If Ubuntu will have CNR I will instantly stop using Ubuntu.

For what purpose? You don't have to use CNR if you don't want to. ;)

[pulp]

Electricity is free. The service of giving it to you from far away costs money and the more electricity you use, the more you use the network. So they want a bigger contribution from you to improve and renew the network.


And I thankfully pay the company for delivering electricity to me. I don't know how it is handled in other countries but in Germany there is a market, and you can choose the company to deliver the electricity (but no one is doing it for free). But thats offtopic

[Bragador]

In Quebec there is one company only owned by the government.

But yeah this is off topic.

So...

Stop proprietary softwares ! Free CNR !

[commodore]

For me the biggest reason I wouldn't use CNR is because it's made by Linspire. For me Linspire is not Linux. It's more like Microsoft and Windows. Even their old name was like it- Lindows.

There's a lot of talk about free of charge on the Ubuntu website, but CNR isn't free of charge isn't it?

[Bandit]

If Ubuntu will have CNR I will instantly stop using Ubuntu.
So you are telling me. If Ubuntu was released without CNR client software on the CD, but the CNR software could be downloaded via Apt you would stop using Ubuntu?
If so that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life.
There is lots of software in the repositories that I dont like, even many of them ARE propreitery (nVidia drivers, hint hint). But that doesnt mean I will quit using Ubuntu...

[Perfect Storm]

Kevin,
I know many users can only agree to disagree on this topic.
But if I think you offerd the service via your website with Marks permission of course. It would be a great idea.
For the users that dont want CNR's services, then they never have to worry or be botherd by it.
But for someone like my Mom, I would be very happy to set it up on her PC.
For most PC users they wouldnt want the service.
For windows users that dont know that much about linux this would be great for them as well.
I mean its not like your trying to force anything on them.
You can simply have Mark have the client side software for CNR in our current main repository.
That way the hardest thing most users would have to do it look up CNR in Apt and have it install it. Thats eaiser then winders up-date..
Cheers,
Joe

I agree with Bandit.

Go for it Kevin. Non-techs like my brother, my mom and dad who shown and interest for linux the last couple of months a such project will be send from heaven.

[aysiu]

@Aysiu: I smell a poll here...;) Someone beat me to it:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138603

[Sirin]

Someone beat me to it:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138603

And so did Kevin: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138616 :)

[aysiu]

For me the biggest reason I wouldn't use CNR is because it's made by Linspire. For me Linspire is not Linux. It's more like Microsoft and Windows. Even their old name was like it- Lindows. Linspire is Linux. It's an operating system based on the Linux kernel. Ubuntu is also an operating system based on the Linux kernel.

In fact, both Ubuntu and Linspire are based on Debian, which, in turn, uses... the Linux kernel.

Linspire may look like Windows, but it is not Windows--either in its structure or its behavior. If cosmetics are all that matter to you, then Ubuntu itself is not Linux if it's using an XP or Mac theme.



There's a lot of talk about free of charge on the Ubuntu website, but CNR isn't free of charge isn't it? And Linux doesn't have to be free of charge. And Ubuntu doesn't have to use CNR. People are talking about the option of having CNR available.

[Bragador]

Linspire is Linux. It's an operating system based on the Linux kernel. Ubuntu is also an operating system based on the Linux kernel.

In fact, both Ubuntu and Linspire are based on Debian, which, in turn, uses... the Linux kernel.

Linspire may look like Windows, but it is not Windows--either in its structure or its behavior. If cosmetics are all that matter to you, then Ubuntu itself is not Linux if it's using an XP or Mac theme.

And Linux doesn't have to be free of charge. And Ubuntu doesn't have to use CNR. People are talking about the option of having CNR available.
I think he met that Linspire doesn't follow the Linux ideology of open software and whatnot.

[xequence]

Wow. 18 pages. I definitally wasnt the first one to post on this one =O

Keeping in mind I didnt read many of them, I might, but I dont have enough time right now.

Ok, now for my opinion.

I think this is a good idea. Sort of like two distros uniting and sharing resources. They would compliment each other VERY well. Two distros both promoting open source, but one is more for beginners and the other more for above beginner. While I think it is a good idea, I dont think I would use it. Apt and Synaptic are easy enough to use for me, but then again I am obviously not the target audience for CNR.

So go for it, uniting and sharing resources for linux distros is great.

[beast2k]

In Quebec there is one company only owned by the government.

But yeah this is off topic.

So...

Stop proprietary softwares ! Free CNR !
I dont know about your bill but one of the govt. guys is getting rich from my bill payments. Sorry back to the topic now:???:

[Malphas]

For me the biggest reason I wouldn't use CNR is because it's made by Linspire. For me Linspire is not Linux. It's more like Microsoft and Windows.
What utter wannabe-elitist garbage.

[Bragador]

Wow. 18 pages. I definitally wasnt the first one to post on this one =O

Keeping in mind I didnt read many of them, I might, but I dont have enough time right now.

Ok, now for my opinion.

I think this is a good idea. Sort of like two distros uniting and sharing resources. They would compliment each other VERY well. Two distros both promoting open source, but one is more for beginners and the other more for above beginner. While I think it is a good idea, I dont think I would use it. Apt and Synaptic are easy enough to use for me, but then again I am obviously not the target audience for CNR.

So go for it, uniting and sharing resources for linux distros is great.

*snickers*

yeah... BOTH promoting open software lol

Kevin did say CNR was how Linspire could make money and it isn't open software. So basically they are encouraging people to make money out of PROPRIETARY software. Yeah it's easier but it's not what linux is trying to be. Also he mentioned that the reason was for security purposes. Again, if the code was available, hackers could help improve the security instead of Linspire promoting security by obscurity.

[Sirin]

Would this be a nice logo for Ubuntu CNR? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=786240) :)

[xequence]

For me the biggest reason I wouldn't use CNR is because it's made by Linspire. For me Linspire is not Linux. It's more like Microsoft and Windows.

How is linspire in any way like microsoft or windows?

The only thing I can think of is the "Lauch" button, but thats just me, and it annoys me. Nothing to hate a company over.


So basically they are encouraging people to make money out of PROPRIETARY software.

Youre one of those extremists who believe there should be nothing but open source, right?

I believe in promoting the goodness of open source. I dont believe in everything being totally open source. It just doesent work in some situations. Like CNR. They need to make money from it (the same money that some of it goes into many open source projects), and if it was open source people could easily take it and crack it so anyone could use it free.

[Bandit]

*snickers*

yeah... BOTH promoting open software lol

Kevin did say CNR was how Linspire could make money and it isn't open software. So basically they are encouraging people to make money out of PROPRIETARY software. Yeah it's easier but it's not what linux is trying to be. Also he mentioned that the reason was for security purposes. Again, if the code was available, hackers could help improve the security instead of Linspire promoting security by obscurity.
Yea, but doesnt half the community here use the PROPRIETARY nVidia or ATI drivers ;)

So what is the diference?

[PsTJsT]

I'm not going to address the merits or evils of capitalism, free as in beer vs. free as in speech, or any of the other somewhat esoteric debates that have popped up in this thread (as interesting as some of them may be). However, I think offering CNR as an option in Ubuntu would be a very good thing for several practical reasons:

1) It would allow people in certain countries (in the U.S. and perhaps elsewhere) to legally obtain and use certain proprietary codecs (and packages that rely on those codecs) if they want/need to do so. I don't think the importance of this can be overemphasized.

2) It would make it significantly easier and more convenient for a number of people to more quickly setup their Ubuntu system(s) as they so desire.

3) It would allow people who "experiment" with their systems to do so with less fear since a borked system wouldn't require hours of reinstalling a multitude of packages. (Based on a review of Linspire in the August 2005 issue of TUX Magazine, the CNR servers apparently track the packages one has installed so it's easy to reinstall all packages on a clean install, or even on a different machine, with a single click).

4) It would make it significantly easier and more convenient to learn of/experiment with/use packages not available in the repositories (including newer/updated versions of packages currently in the repositories).

5) It likely would (or, at least, could) speed up and increase the acceptance and adoption of Linux in general or Ubuntu specifically. Like it or not, for most people ease=good and inconvenience=bad -- and those people are the individuals who ultimately will determine whether Linux (and possibly Ubuntu) is adopted by a large percentage of mainstream/"average" computer users. Who knows, if Ubuntu already included CNR, HP (and others) might pick Ubuntu over Linspire (and others)?

6) There clearly is a desire among many Ubuntu users for the quick/easy/painless installation of certain packages. If this wasn't the case, Easy Ubuntu and Automatix wouldn't exist.

7) With absolutely no ill will intended toward Easy Ubuntu or Automatix (I heartily applaud the efforts of keyes, arnieboy, and others who work tirelessly on Easy Ubuntu and Automatix), it seems clear based on the number of posts involving problems encountered by people using Easy Ubuntu and Automatix that a more comprehensive/less complex solution is needed. Whether the problems are "user error" or due to something else is irrelevant, the simple fact that there are so many problems mandates an easier solution.

Would "you" or I find CNR helpful and use it? Maybe, maybe not. (I probably would because of my desire to use certain codecs legally, and the appeal of easily learning of/locating/installing software not available in the repositories). But whether "you" or I find CNR helpful may not be incredibly important if CNR would allow people who are unfamiliar with Linux and/or Ubuntu to become comfortable with Linux and/or Ubuntu more quickly (so that they could then tell their friends and coworkers how great the Linux/Ubuntu experience can be ;) ).

FWIW, I've never used Linspire so I don't know whether CNR works as well as advertised, but I don't have any reason to doubt the merits of CNR since reviews of Linspire seem to universally agree that CNR is a very impressive feature. I'm also not a Linspire devotee (I don't use it and I don't care to use it), but I certainly think Ubuntu would be a better distro (and therefore "my" distro would be better) if CNR was an option.

In my mind, CNR equates to providing choice and convenience for those who want/need it.

Just my $2.02...

[Bragador]

Yea, but doesnt half the community here use the PROPRIETARY nVidia or ATI drivers ;)

So what is the diference?

The difference is you can either
a) Push for open software to be the norm
or
b) Do nothing

Drivers don't have to be proprietary and you know that. It's the hardware that makes the money.

[Bragador]

How is linspire in any way like microsoft or windows?

The only thing I can think of is the "Lauch" button, but thats just me, and it annoys me. Nothing to hate a company over.



Youre one of those extremists who believe there should be nothing but open source, right?

I believe in promoting the goodness of open source. I dont believe in everything being totally open source. It just doesent work in some situations. Like CNR. They need to make money from it (the same money that some of it goes into many open source projects), and if it was open source people could easily take it and crack it so anyone could use it free.

This is where you are wrong my good sire. CNR makes money thanks to the service. You might know how it works but you might not be able to get a new network up and running. Also being closed also means it is not secured. If the code was open Kevin said people could know how the network communications are handled and this is a security threat. Thus, if it was open, all the holes could be patched.

[xequence]

You might know how it works but you might not be able to get a new network up and running.

Like, you mean new unofficial CNR repos? Why would I want to do that?


Also being closed also means it is not secured.

Thats all opinion whether it it is more or less secure. Being closed source means people dont have access to the code to make a cracked version that lets you use the CNR servers for free. I know, get any good cracking group and they could do it even if it is closed, but if it was open any script kiddie could do it.

[Bragador]

Right, but if the servers are secured on a private network ?

See, I totally agree with you. People could make other programs to access the server but then the cost of the service shouldn't be in using the software in the first place but in using the servers !

So instead of how it currently works, when you access the network they simply check who you are and voilà !

[Bandit]

The difference is you can either
a) Push for open software to be the norm
or
b) Do nothing

Drivers don't have to be proprietary and you know that. It's the hardware that makes the money.
Everyone has the option to use proprietory or open source software. Why shoudl we force anyone to do anything. By doing so you eliminate FREEDOM. Everyone deserves the right to choose what they want.
I say let it be in the repositores for the ones who want/need the client software.
For the ones of us who may not use it. Then they dont have to. FREEDOM.

To say you want CNR to open the source up. Isnt that taking away from their rights and taking away their FREEDOM.
Why do you want them to open it up? Can you not take the time and effort as they did to write your own software? If you cant and you want CNR's software to base your software off of then thats just FREELOADING..
Good things in this world do not come easy and no one should be allowed to profit from other peoples hardwork.
CNR is only covering their service use and patent fees. There is nothing wrong with that.

Cheers,
Joey

[Bragador]

It is fair to allow people to shun Freedom (aka proprietary software).

On the other hand it is more fair to promote freedom (open software).

[Kevin Carmony]

Based on that argument Kevin....Are you a Car Salesman?

Your selling me a product that , once I buy the product if I really want it to work, then I have to put more money into it. Microsoft does the same thing with Windows, capn. Buy XP, then Buy Office, then Buy Quickbooks or Quicken or whatever. Keep dumping money into a product that for all intents an purposes , should work out of the box. Novell does it. Red Hat does it. Ubuntu does it. Mandriva Does it.

What makes you different?

Nothing. It's the nature of technology. When I buy a certain printer, I have to use certain print cartridges. When I subscribe to a cable provider, I'm locked into certain options they provide. When I use AT&T for my mobile phone, I'm locked into their services. When I use the PALM OS on my Treo, I'm locked into their technology.

That's just the way technology works.

For me, the key is having choice. As long as there are OTHER cable companies, cell phone providers, and operating system choices, then I'M making the choice of what technology to use.

When you choose Debian, you at the same time choose other technology choices. When you choose GNOME or KDE, you make a choice. They key is, YOU are making that choice, in a free market system.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

There is nothing wrong with providing products for money, as long as you don't have the capitalist tendency to shut down free alternatives. This is in no way an offense to you. I have no idea whether you wanna shut down your business opponents ;)

I'm a Libertarian, I don't want to see about ANY choice shut down...free, commercial, or otherwise. This is why Linspire has NEVER locked anyone out from installing software any way they like, including using apt.

Just because I may choose to have a milk man deliver milk to me each week, doesn't mean I forgo the option of driving to the store anytime I wish to buy it that way, or even getting myself a cow and milking it every morning for "free" milk. :)

Kevin

[xequence]

Microsoft does the same thing with Windows, capn. Buy XP, then Buy Office, then Buy Quickbooks or Quicken or whatever.

What are you talking about?

You are obviously not a big fan of Openoffice as you feel the need to use MS Office in windows.

(Nothing wrong with MS Office, but you complain they try to make you buy it)

[Brunellus]

Nothing. It's the nature of technology. When I buy a certain printer, I have to use certain print cartridges. When I subscribe to a cable provider, I'm locked into certain options they provide. When I use AT&T for my mobile phone, I'm locked into their services. When I use the PALM OS on my Treo, I'm locked into their technology.

That's just the way technology works.

For me, the key is having choice. As long as there are OTHER cable companies, cell phone providers, and operating system choices, then I'M making the choice of what technology to use.

When you choose Debian, you at the same time choose other technology choices. When you choose GNOME or KDE, you make a choice. They key is, YOU are making that choice, in a free market system.

Kevin
That's how it's worked out in monopoly systems, KC, but it's not *necessarily* so in all cases.

In the case of your cable provider: they are only able to make that kind of restriction because they have a local monopoly on that service. Legislation is before the Congress now which would compel them to unbundle programming.

In the case of your PalmOS device: yes. You are locked in to their operating system...but not necessarily compelled to use non-free software. I have an old Palm III, and have found much to my amusement that the only easily-available software for PalmOS 3.5.x is Free Software.

In any case,while I might have some issues with the way Linspire ships by default (which is why I have not chosen Linspire), I don't think it's objectionable that you should make CNR available to the Debian-Daughter distros--Ubuntu, Mepis, Xandros, Progeny, whoever.

[Bandit]

Kevin,
I think many users here are afraid that they may get "locked in" to using only CNR.
Like I said before, I think its a outstanding idea and would like to see CNR offering their services for the Ubuntu community.
But to protect everyones FREEDOM we need to make it avalible in the repositories as a option. That way everyone has a CHOICE to use it or not in conjunction with existing repositories.
Also if someone else started providing the same service at a competitive price. A Ubuntu user could use that service provider or both protecting everyones FREEDOM of CHOICE.
Dont you agree :)
Cheers,
Joe

[Kevin Carmony]

You shouldn't have to pay anything to get a software who play a dvd, i will never give up in front of those concepts !!!

I may not like DRM, but I respect the ownership of people to control the work they produce anyway they wish. I don't try to take the freedom away from ANYONE, including those who choose to use DRM with their works.

If I write a song, and then I record that song, in my mind, that's MY song. It's MY choice how I want to share that song. If I want to wrap a zillion layers of DRM around it, that's MY right.

Who gives YOU the right to say it's suddenly YOUR song, to be distributed the way YOU want?

Let me be clear, I REALLY dislike DRM. I was in the music business for a time in Los Angeles, and I was one of the few music execs who fought AGAINST using DRM. HOWEVER, I will NEVER fight against someone exercising their freedom to do what they want with THEIR music. I think DRM is dumb. I think it hurts a recording artist's career. However, just because *I* don't like it, doesn't give me the right to say, "Sorry Mr. musician, I know better than you, so I am going to use YOUR song any way I please."

Kevin

[John.Michael.Kane]

@Kevin Carmony as long as this cnr is just an optional peice of software the enduser can install via apt-get or synaptic then you might have an easy sell on it, however if this cnr is being proposed as a replacement for synaptic giving the end user cnr as the only option then you might run in to issues with those who dont want to use it.

Just my thoughts...

[Brunellus]

I may not like DRM, but I respect the ownership of people to control the work they produce anyway they wish. I don't try to take the freedom away from ANYONE, including those who choose to use DRM with their works.

If I write a song, and then I record that song, in my mind, that's MY song. It's MY choice how I want to share that song. If I want to wrap a zillion layers of DRM around it, that's MY right.

Who gives YOU the right to say it's suddenly YOUR song, to be distributed the way YOU want?

Let me be clear, I REALLY dislike DRM. I was in the music business for a time in Los Angeles, and I was one of the few music execs who fought AGAINST using DRM. HOWEVER, I will NEVER fight against someone exercising their freedom to do what they want with THEIR music. I think DRM is dumb. I think it hurts a recording artist's career. However, just because *I* don't like it, doesn't give me the right to say, "Sorry Mr. musician, I know better than you, so I am going to use YOUR song any way I please."

Kevin
this is likely to fork the discussion very badly, but.

the presumption of criminality is what offends a lot of people with the new restrictions, which have the side-effect of curtailing what had been free-use rights.

[byen]

I think many users here are afraid that they may get "locked in" to using only CNR.Like I said before, I think its a outstanding idea and would like to see CNR offering their services for the Ubuntu community.
But to protect everyones FREEDOM we need to make it avalible in the repositories as a option. That way everyone has a CHOICE to use it or not in conjunction with existing repositories.
I agree with this 100%. I think it finally boils down to this! Though I was skeptical at first...after looking at what you (Mr. Kevin Carmony) had to say..I now feel like you have a valid point. Again, what I see in this (and the other) thread is that Ubuntu users are worried that after the introduction of CNR we would eventually be deprived of what we have now.
What is important for us to realize is the fact that since thread one you have tried your best to put emphasis on the point that this would be optional. And to me, as long as it remains optional (the user being informed that he can either get it the apt-way (with tweaks) or by purchase... thus supporting the developers)...I see no point in why we should disagree with you. Better yet...users new to linux might find this service helpful and ease the transition!
Also... I think it would be one good way to support the developers and people like yourself who are helping linux reach its goals. It is a pleasure to see you here Mr.Kevin Carmony and I wish you good luck !
~byen

[xequence]

Where, anywhere here does it say CNR will be the default and you wont be able to use anything else? That would never happen.

[Kevin Carmony]

I do agree an alternative to "apt" would be good though. I also never said CNR was evil. If people are ready to pay for it fine, but I wouldn't encourage them since it's closed source.

I really do respect all you here that only use open source things!

That's awesome that you never drink Coca-Cola, eat a Mrs. Fields cookie, use Tide to clean your clothes, don't drive cars which have proprietary software running the nav and other systems, and never use Java, Flash, MP3, DVD, Real Audio, Windows Media, nVidia drives, ATI drivers, and so on. It's great that you refuse to use computes that have a closed source BIOS, or use a refrigerator that doesn't let you modify it's OS.

You're a special breed who can be so true to your belief that everything closed source is not be be used.

Or, do you still use some of this stuff, and just not let anyone know? ;)

Kevin

[xequence]

or use a refrigerator that doesn't let you modify it's OS

Fridges have OSes now? O_O

[Bandit]

I agree with this 100%. I think it finally boils down to this! Though I was skeptical at first...after looking at what you (Mr. Kevin Carmony) had to say..I now feel like you have a valid point. Again, what I see in this (and the other) thread is that Ubuntu users are worried that after the introduction of CNR we would eventually be deprived of what we have now.
What is important for us to realize is the fact that since thread one you have tried your best to put emphasis on the point that this would be optional. And to me as long as it remains optional...I see no point in why we should disagree with you. Better yet...users new to linux might find this service helpful and ease the transition!
Also... I think it would be one good way to support the developers and people like yourself who are helping linux reach its goals. It is a pleasure to see you here Mr.Kevin Carmony and I wish you good luck !
~byen
I see the CNR services is as any diferent then a department store.
You have KMart, Wal-Mart, Target and so one. You have the freedom to choose which you want to use if you even want to use any of them at all.
As long as it remains OPTIONAL. ;)

[Bragador]

There is also the ideological debate about supporting proprietary software. Like I posten in Mr. Carmony's poll, I strongly suggest to make the CNR software open source.

Originally Posted by xequence
Why open the code though? I dont think linspire wants people taking their CNR code.

1) Improve the program
2) Enable others to make other programs that are better
3) Enable CNR to look at the ideas from other projects and improve their own software
4) Make sure no bugs exist

Quote:
Originally Posted by xequence
And how easy would it be then for people to use the CNR servers without paying.

I don't know if I follow. The weak point is currently the software. If linux was more popular, hackers would have already cracked the damn thing anyway so you would be able to access the network for free.

What I suggest is to make it like a ... well see do you know World of Warcraft ? You have the software but you pay to get ACCESS to the network. Same thing I propose in here. People pay for an account for the CNR network and then access it with whatever program they want. If you want to log in, you have to pay.

In this way, instead of having to keep your software secret, you work on the security of your network.

Of course a lot of work has been done on how to install the softwares thanks to CNR but without the CNR network, you can't do anything.

If you think people could exploit this by using the same account for multiple computers, just charge for each time the person log in the network, or per task downloaded and installed. if it's 10 cents or 25 cents for each install I don't think people will mind. Just have your analysts see how much bandwith people usually use per year on your network divided by how many applications they install and it gives you a rough idea on what you could charge.

[lotusleaf]

I like Ubuntu the way it is right now, that's why I chose it.

Should CNR be available as an optional package installable via Synaptic, with no changes made to Ubuntu with it not installed, with no development on Ubuntu slowed by attention to CNR, then that's fine, because I wouldn't use it but others could choose to do so, just like they can choose whether or not to install Dungeon Crawl or not. :)

But were CNR to be integrated into Ubuntu, then I would switch back to Debian.

Edit: I agree with a few of the points Bragador makes, I feel all software should be open source. However some of us do choose to use the drivers provided by Nvidia and/or ATI, food for thought.

[Bandit]

Free CNR ! Open the code !
Be a Freeloader ! Take Away Human Rights to own THEIR own Property !

[Kevin Carmony]

@Kevin Carmony I'm one of those users who would rather spend the time reading a linux book to learn how linux works rather then clik, and go. if this means a few hours or a few days so be it. however i understand there are those who would want your clik and go method..

Exactly. Most of you here probably are the same, or you wouldn't be using Ubuntu. Anyone using Ubuntu today HAS to have some level of interest (or at least patience) to go through the process of installing a new OS and then learning how to add and update software (not to mention drivers for hardware support, etc.).

However, if Linux is to grow beyond 1% or 2% market share, it needs to be usable by those who don't want to learn all the tricks.

A good example of this is AOL. No one with any technical salt would have ever used AOL ("So easy to use, no wonder it's number one.") But, AOL brought MILLIONS of people to the Internet who would have never figured it out without AOL. When these millions came, they helped bring traffic to the Internet, which brought dollars, which helped pay for better routers, better software, thicker pipes, a better backbone for the net, and so on, all of which then came back and helped the technical user.

If you're reading this using a high speed net connection, that connection is as advanced and good as it is, because MILLIONS OF NON TECHNICAL PEOPLE use the Internet and have paid for those improvements, which then YOU enjoy.

Same can happen for Linux. The more users there are, the more energy flows to it, and the better the software becomes for everyone.

Linux either needs to have easier-to-use options, or expect 95% of the world to stay with MS.

Kevin

[Master Shake]

If CNR will give me access to LEGAL codecs, I'd be interested in it, at least for one year.

[Kvark]

It is already easy to install open source software on Ubuntu. Open synaptic. Type in keywords. Click on search results to see their descriptions. Mark the search results you like. Click apply. Anyone can do that so normal users can get by just fine on Ubuntu without CNR as long as they only need open source software. And when there is an update for any of the programs an icon pops up in the panel, you click the icon to see which programs there are updates fro and click the "ok update them" button.

But you can't buy propriarity software in synaptic. You have to visit some online shopping website just to get the program and that is too much trouble for my taste. In some cases you even have to drive to a store to buy a physical CD. I'm sure those who needs propriarity software would appriciate an easier way here.

For example if CNR has most of the commercial games that work on Linux, Cedega and some of the Windows games that work on Cedega then it would be worth a lot for any gamer, geek or not to be able to buy those without having to go to some website or physical store.

[Bandit]

Exactly. Most of you here probably are the same, or you wouldn't be using Ubuntu. Anyone using Ubuntu today HAS to have some level of interest (or at least patience) to go through the process of installing a new OS and then learning how to add and update software (not to mention drivers for hardware support, etc.).

However, if Linux is to grow beyond 1% or 2% market share, it needs to be usable by those who don't want to learn all the tricks.

A good example of this is AOL. No one with any technical salt would have ever used AOL ("So easy to use, no wonder it's number one.") But, AOL brought MILLIONS of people to the Internet who would have never figured it out without AOL. When these millions came, they helped bring traffic to the Internet, which brought dollars, which helped pay for better routers, better software, thicker pipes, a better backbone for the net, and so on, all of which then came back and helped the technical user.

If you're reading this using a high speed net connection, that connection is as advanced and good as it is, because MILLIONS OF NON TECHNICAL PEOPLE use the Internet and have paid for those improvements, which then YOU enjoy.

Same can happen for Linux. The more users there are, the more energy flows to it, and the better the software becomes for everyone.

Linux either needs to have easier-to-use options, or expect 95% of the world to stay with MS.

Kevin
Exactly!!

[Bragador]

Exactly!!

So for you linux is not about open software, it's about being AOL for microsoft users ?

[welsh_spud]

I'm guessing that CNR is Linspire's main source of income (you can often get Linspire 5-0 for free with a coupon), and was wondering; how much money does Linspire as a company actually make ? And if you made an Ubuntu version of CNR, how much of the money would find its way back to the programs that you packaged?

[kassetra]

I really do respect all you here that only use open source things!
Or, do you still use some of this stuff, and just not let anyone know? ;)

Kevin
Kevin -

As I type my message using my Saitek(tm) Eclipse Keyboard(r), I am reminded of the book 1984(c) by George Orwell(tm). Only, instead of Big Brother(tm) looking over my every move, I now have Microsoft(tm), the RIAA(tm), the MPAA(tm), Geico Insurance(tm), Pfizer(tm), Ford(tm), and many, many other Corporations(c) instructing me as to what I can and cannot do. I am not given any choices in whether or not I can use open-source insurance, open-source pharmaceuticals, open-source vehicles, nor many other things. In fact, I am uncertain whether or not I have the proper license in order to actually use the English(c) Language(tm) as I type.

Given these circumstances, yes, I use closed-source products, because I do not have viable alternatives to them. :)

When I do have a choice, however, I choose to be free. But, I do not tell everyone else to do as I do - because they may have different needs. :)

So, bring on the choices! (Everyone could use more choices.)

[xhie]

CNR will invisibly and automatically fix any wedges, and so on.

I'm sure for a LOT of people new to linux out there CNR would be great.

Not for me... One of the reasons I love linux as much as I do is that no part of it is a magic black box that does stuff without me knowing what it is. I'm just the type of person that needs to understand whats happing with my system on as many levils as is accecable to me. Open source totally free linux distros dive me that, total control over my system. Theres plenty of stuff that will confuse me every now and then as far as my system goes, but I know that whatever it is I can find it and figure out what is doing what. That is worth a lot me, I HATE having to say to myself "Dam... I installed this software and it did something to something and I dont understand what and all the people online just say to reinstall it" That happened to often with windows.

But yeah, plenty of people would love to have CNR do the dirty work for them.

The $soft party bus was on my college campus today, they sell alot of great widgets that are all magically connected somehow and other then a graphical installer / configuration tool you have no idea how your home threater or whatever thing you just payed thousands of dollars for is working and how to fix it if it crashes is a total mystery. No thank you.

I guess people are differant. Me, I have 2 laptops and 2 desktop computers at my house, and I the stuff I do is compartmentalized to the differnt systems. The Dell XPS is sitting at work, I use it for work, its a laptop because once every 4 months or so I have to take it somewhere. My laptop I ALWAYS have with me is a Toshiba R15 tablet, that stuff is mostly school, linux and programming related. Theres a really old desktop that I just fiddle around with, various distros of linux and whatnot, and theres a ricy gaming system.

Other people need one box to do everything, those people are better of with CNR and the like. I guess my point is that I dont work in any way that I would need magic pixy dust powered software on any of my systems.

[KiwiNZ]

I use open source and closed source software.Why ? simple I chose the best to do the job. If that means paying for it so be it.
I also sell both open source and closed source, why? again the best for the job and the customers choice.

Open source is not devine and closed source is not evil. Both have their place and both provide the customer the choice to chose.

[emperor]

Looks like someone beat me to the punch! By about 2 minutes!

I hope everyone will read the post I made about CNR (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138611) before answering and answer the poll I posted (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138616).

Thanks,

Kevin
The post you referred to above does not exists!

I do not see any real evidence that you are Kevin Carmony! There is just no way to tell by your profile. Anybody could say they are Kevin Carmony!

???

Update: I sent an e-mail to Kevin and he is indeed posting in this forum!

[towsonu2003]

I feel like the best solution for you to get a paid-subscription CNR into Ubuntu is to make it into a 3rd party ubuntu project. It will be no different than Automatix or EasyUbuntu and you can provide the way to install it from the forums just like Automatix does (or used to do?). Or from your website (linked from the forum) like EasyUbuntu does.

Here is a link where such a project can be started: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=46

I suppose the Forum staff would be okay with opening a new section for your "CNR Ubuntu" project.

There is no way anyone will object to a 3rd party project (except maybe questioning its usefulness, but that won't bother you once it kicks in). But with a paid-for subscription service inside the main repos, that will cause trouble within the community.

I, for one, <insert overlord joke here> would not feel comfortable if people start connecting ubuntu with paid subscription.

I would be overly paranoid as well. The reason, as I mentioned a number of times before, is because capitalist entities (for-profit organizations) have a tendency to shut down rival businesses (especially if they offer free services). This is just the nature of capitalism, and I don't see it useful to discuss capitalist business models here.

With a 3rd party project, such a connection will not be established. Moreover, with a 3rd party project, there will not be much opportunity for a capitalist business (yours) to try to eliminate rivals. What am I afraid of? A shift in Ubuntu views toward: "Let's put a subscription fee for the repositories and start a partnership with Linspire's CNR department. For one, newbies love it because it is so easy. And we could make some money out of it as well." Brrrrrrrr...

PS. even non-capitalist projects try to eliminate each other, recently demonstrated by the huge tension between Easy Ubuntu and Automatix. I don't even wanna know what would happen if one of these projects had money (power) and access to major Ubuntu developers or to Mark Shuttleworth.

[Vorian]

I do not see any real evidence that you are Kevin Carmony! There is just no way to tell by your profile. Anybody could say they are Kevin Carmony!

???

I think he is, I think he should have special "beans" too!

I believe in Kevin Carmony!

[lotusleaf]

towsonu2003, an excellent post with many great points, I agree. :)

[byen]

towsonu2003, an excellent post with many great points, I agree.
I second that!

[poofyhairguy]

I believe in Kevin Carmony!

He is a pretty fun guy.

[poofyhairguy]

Who gives YOU the right to say it's suddenly YOUR song, to be distributed the way YOU want?

A loophole in Russian copyright law gives me that right (snicker).

[Sirin]

Whoa! 25 pages in 9 hours! :o

[Iandefor]

Whoa! 25 pages in 9 hours! :o Yeah. I was thinking that.

[towsonu2003]

Whoa! 25 pages in 9 hours! :o
well, this is a pretty important topic indeed (may even change who stays and who leaves)

I see u already got the logo up and running

[David Valentine]

I realize that this is a catch 22, but CNR seems not to have some of the recent updates that I consider essential (e.g., no v. 1.5 of Firefox or Thunderbird), nor does it have software available that I have had trouble installing otherwise (e.g., Bibus or e17). Thus the only reason I would consider signing up for CNR is in order to be legal with respect to proprietary codecs. If CNR became larger and more current, then I'd subscribe as a way to be productive and happy with my PC while still learning this Linux thingy...:p

[FoxLogic]

YES! I want CNR for Ubuntu. I'd love to acquire commercial software for only $20 a year. I can afford that for once. This is a deal here for me, I'm a low budget person who would jump for a service like this.


My mouth is already watering at the amount of software your page claims, Kevin.
I've already configured and settled down well in the Ubuntu community.


I can benefit from both Ubuntu and CNR at the same time. Ubuntu with what it can give me for free and CNR for what I would need from commercial software.

That and keep using Gnome without having left overs from KDE that Linspire defaults on. Ewwww = KDE.

^.^

[xequence]

am reminded of the book 1984(c) by George Orwell(tm).

I am reading that book now!

Dont you dare mention anything else from that book, it might ruin it for me =P I am a bit after page 100 I think...


A loophole in Russian copyright law gives me that right (snicker).

Dude, Russian copyright law is cool :)

The Beatles discography is under the public domain ;O

[mstlyevil]

The post you referred to above does not exists!

I do not see any real evidence that you are Kevin Carmony! There is just no way to tell by your profile. Anybody could say they are Kevin Carmony!

???

The two post were merged at my request. I was the one that beat him to the punch.

[bonzodog]

heh...
It's stupid and extremely dumb in my opinion to assume that people can pay for services on the net. I cannot as I do not believe in Credit cards, and have NEVER owned one. My debit card is not recognised AT ALL by any website. I for one was around on the net before the advent of amazon and ebay, and believe them both to be extremely dangerous places to go. Also, I do not like giving out too much personal info on the net, and if I do, I want to know who has got it. I have NEVER given MS my home address or anything along those lines as I do not trust american corporations. I go to great lengths to avoid anything by MS, and will not even allow their hardware in my house. Most technology I own is either asian or european, the exceptions possibly being nvdia and AMD. Also, I am a 64 bit owner, and thus would never use this service anyway. I admit I am a linux zealot and an RMS fan, and the only propreitry codecs I believe I have on this system are the MP3 codecs for backwards compatability (all current stuff is in ogg), and the nvidia codecs, although they are free from their site as source code.