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hobo14
January 10th, 2010, 11:05 AM
I'm hanging out for a decent ARM based netbook, that will be cheap, and last all day. I know there's a few ultra-low end ones around with about the same processing power as a decent calculator, but I'm looking for something a little better, maybe with a Tegra, Snapdragon, or top end Freescale processor.

The following from Engadget look promising:


Pegatron/Freescale/Ubuntu (http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/22/pegatrons-ubuntu-equipped-netbook-spotted-in-the-wild/)

Asus/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/30/asus-android-based-secret-weapon-smartbook-launching-in-q1/)

This one (http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/15/cherrypal-debuts-99-netbook-names-it-africa/) probably not enough IMO

Pegatron/Tegra/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/08/asus-pegatron-neo-with-tegra-2-hands-on/)

Mobinova/Tegra/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/nvidia-tegra-2-powered-mobinnova-beam-hands-on/)

HP/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/hp-mini-snapdragon-powered-android-hands-on/)

Lenovo/Snapdragon/Skylight(Linux) (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/05/lenovo-skylight-its-first-arm-snapdragon-based-smartbook-com/) - too expensive

Lenovo?/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/26/lenovos-snapdragon-smartbook-gets-android-pictured-properly/)

And of course now that we know Google is happy to sell hardware, it may be worth waiting for the Google netbook (http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/28/googles-chrome-os-based-netbook-specs-leak-out-look-good/)

EDIT:

Compaq/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/12/compaq-airlife-100-puts-android-os-snapdragon-cpu-and-an-ssd-b/?s=t5)

Samsung/Snapdragon/Chrome (http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/13/samsung-doing-a-10-inch-chrome-os-netbook-later-this-year/)

ASUS/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.tweaktown.com/news/12339/eee_pc_spotted_running_android_qualcomm_1ghz_cpu/)

langelgjm
January 11th, 2010, 07:41 PM
That's a nice roundup. Thanks for posting it.

I too have been holding off on purchasing a netbook in the hopes of some decent ARM offerings. All throughout the fall, I kept finding articles from last year's CES talking about ARM-based netbooks will all-day battery life and at a $200 price point. They were going to launch in mid-2009... then late 2009... then Q1 2010.

Now this year's CES has rolled around and all we're seeing is prototypes and demo units. A few of those links talk about selling something in Q1 2010... some say mid-2010. I'm kind of bummed now - when is someone going to actually show me something I can BUY!

Seriously, I'd slap down USD 200 to 300 for that Pegatron model. Ultralight, long battery life, no fans... It figures the only model that seems to be actually going on sale is that Lenovo Skylight thing, which is way too expensive. I thought the big advantages of using ARM were 1) low power, thus needing smaller (and less expensive) battery to get the same performance; 2) integration (multiple functions integrated onto one chip, keeping costs down); 3) Windows can't run on it, so no MS tax.

BuffaloX
January 12th, 2010, 01:26 AM
I may buy one of the tablets and use as an e-book reader. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJSeNYfpC_o

hobo14
January 12th, 2010, 10:35 AM
That's a nice roundup. Thanks for posting it.

I too have been holding off on purchasing a netbook in the hopes of some decent ARM offerings. All throughout the fall, I kept finding articles from last year's CES talking about ARM-based netbooks will all-day battery life and at a $200 price point. They were going to launch in mid-2009... then late 2009... then Q1 2010.

Now this year's CES has rolled around and all we're seeing is prototypes and demo units. A few of those links talk about selling something in Q1 2010... some say mid-2010. I'm kind of bummed now - when is someone going to actually show me something I can BUY!

Seriously, I'd slap down USD 200 to 300 for that Pegatron model. Ultralight, long battery life, no fans... It figures the only model that seems to be actually going on sale is that Lenovo Skylight thing, which is way too expensive. I thought the big advantages of using ARM were 1) low power, thus needing smaller (and less expensive) battery to get the same performance; 2) integration (multiple functions integrated onto one chip, keeping costs down); 3) Windows can't run on it, so no MS tax.

;) I feel pretty much exactly the same: cheap ($200) and all day usage are king, and stop showing me prototypes, sell me something!

orlox
January 12th, 2010, 01:26 PM
On CES the Tegra 2 was announced. 8 proccesors on a single chip, including a dual core cortex A9 ARM proccesor, with a very low energy consumption. It looks very impressive, and it will probably end up powering some netbooks (though, I don't expect anything coming out soon...)

freechelmi
February 3rd, 2010, 10:54 AM
I 'm Also dying to find somthing usable with a 10p screen in a Store.

Seems like all the ig brands prefer to sell PineTrail Intel exensive ( 400 Euros) netbooks and are afraid of the ARM threat with would lower their earnings.

Finally the only real ARM netbook I see is the touch Book :http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/

hobo14
February 3rd, 2010, 12:20 PM
I 'm Also dying to find somthing usable with a 10p screen in a Store.

Seems like all the ig brands prefer to sell PineTrail Intel exensive ( 400 Euros) netbooks and are afraid of the ARM threat with would lower their earnings.

Finally the only real ARM netbook I see is the touch Book :http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/

Hmm, did you read the OP? Some big brands, and lots of "real" ARM netbooks.

freechelmi
February 3rd, 2010, 03:14 PM
Hmm, did you read the OP? Some big brands, and lots of "real" ARM netbooks.

You misunderstood. All biig brands and Big ODM have been anoucing tons of ARM products during the Last Two years.

We talked about Mid2009, Christmas 2009 and now Mid2010.... Nothing really come, aprta from HP whose product hit the FCC 2 weeks ago, all these are just prototypes to show the world that they work on it and won't be the last to sell a product ..... but nobody really start the ARM war ....


Mainly because until few months Flash was not ported/efficient on Linux/android on ARM.

It would be nice to have a PR between canonical and Nvidia such as the one with Marvell

langelgjm
February 6th, 2010, 07:16 PM
I don't think it's lack of Flash support holding them back... after all, that's not stopping Apple from releasing the iPad, right?

Speaking of which, the iPad's "A4" processor, from what I read, is really an ARM SoC. This is the type of processor we would expect in the fabled ARM netbooks that are going to be released [insert timeframe here].

AFAICT, in terms of ARM-based netbook/smartbook form factors products you buy and hope to receive right now, you are essentially limited to devices like these (http://haleron.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=11&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=63&vmcchk=1&Itemid=63). There are also a bunch of 7" generic mini-netbooks coming from various Chinese manufacturers. I have not heard good things about these - some, despite coming with Linux, do not even give you root shell access. Almost all of these are using old ARM processors. I have a Pocket PC from five years ago that has better specs than most of those products.

You can order a TouchBook, but they are a little pricey and also backordered.

You can't even order an iPad yet, not that anyone in this community would do such a thing :)

Lenovo's Skylight looks decent, but also not yet available for sale.

If any of you have heard about the $99 CherryPal Africa netbook, it appears to be a scam. No one can actually confirm having received one, and the only way to pay is via a wire transfer.

Then you have all the prototypes we see at CES 2009 and 2010.

In any case, when someone finally does release an ARM-based netbook/smartbook for us, I sincerely hope that it won't require a monumental effort on the community's part to get Linux running well on it. I imagine they are planning to ship with Android rather than a true Linux distro.

BuffaloX
February 6th, 2010, 08:10 PM
Speaking of which, the iPad's "A4" processor, from what I read, is really an ARM SoC. This is the type of processor we would expect in the fabled ARM netbooks that are going to be released [insert timeframe here].

If any of you have heard about the $99 CherryPal Africa netbook, it appears to be a scam. No one can actually confirm having received one, and the only way to pay is via a wire transfer.


No I don't think there is much Apple tech in the A4.
Basically an Arm with PowerVR graphics and some integration of other functions.

Where Apple has succeeded is in having a decent Arm based system ready first.

Too bad about the CherryPal, it sounded like such a cool concept, but probably next to impossible in reality.

rottentree
February 6th, 2010, 08:19 PM
no fans

How come?

langelgjm
February 13th, 2010, 04:52 PM
No fans usually means thinner, less waste heat meaning lower power consumption, quieter, etc.

Here's a promising article (http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2010/02/12/hp_europe_smartbook/). Still can't buy it, though!

say2sky
February 21st, 2010, 07:21 PM
ARM cortex A8 is good enough for handheld device.

4-6" size device with keyboard and running an open source debian/ubuntu should have huge market.

waiting for this kind of device.

pierro78
February 21st, 2010, 07:51 PM
actually such a handheld exists (5" screen clamshell Sharp Netwalker Z1) but I've read on oesf (user jiba) that it's no so great, notably because it misses graphics drivers which would speed it up ...

say2sky
February 22nd, 2010, 02:47 AM
I also have noticed that many ARM devices don't have 2D/3D acceleration driver for linux.

Next ubuntu verson Lucid will support ARM v7( Cortex A8 )I wonder if suitable driver will be included. Ubuntu seems have special kernel version for i.MX515 ARM cpu.

1337
March 13th, 2010, 05:19 PM
Great topic some good informations here about ARM based netbooks :). Hopefully vendors will start making them for the mass market.

chappajar
April 21st, 2010, 12:06 PM
I'm hanging out for a decent ARM based netbook, that will be cheap, and last all day. I know there's a few ultra-low end ones around with about the same processing power as a decent calculator, but I'm looking for something a little better, maybe with a Tegra, Snapdragon, or top end Freescale processor.

The following from Engadget look promising:


Pegatron/Freescale/Ubuntu (http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/22/pegatrons-ubuntu-equipped-netbook-spotted-in-the-wild/)

Asus/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/30/asus-android-based-secret-weapon-smartbook-launching-in-q1/)

This one (http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/15/cherrypal-debuts-99-netbook-names-it-africa/) probably not enough IMO

Pegatron/Tegra/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/08/asus-pegatron-neo-with-tegra-2-hands-on/)

Mobinova/Tegra/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/nvidia-tegra-2-powered-mobinnova-beam-hands-on/)

HP/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/hp-mini-snapdragon-powered-android-hands-on/)

Lenovo/Snapdragon/Skylight(Linux) (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/05/lenovo-skylight-its-first-arm-snapdragon-based-smartbook-com/) - too expensive

Lenovo?/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/26/lenovos-snapdragon-smartbook-gets-android-pictured-properly/)

And of course now that we know Google is happy to sell hardware, it may be worth waiting for the Google netbook (http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/28/googles-chrome-os-based-netbook-specs-leak-out-look-good/)

EDIT:

Compaq/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/12/compaq-airlife-100-puts-android-os-snapdragon-cpu-and-an-ssd-b/?s=t5)

Samsung/Snapdragon/Chrome (http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/13/samsung-doing-a-10-inch-chrome-os-netbook-later-this-year/)

ASUS/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.tweaktown.com/news/12339/eee_pc_spotted_running_android_qualcomm_1ghz_cpu/)

An update on the HP/SnapDragon/Android one from above: http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/20/hp-compaq-airlife-100-specs-revealed-on-its-official-webpage/

P4man
April 21st, 2010, 12:21 PM
I dont think the reason we still cant buy these is hardware; I think its a combination:

- OS support.
Android is barely ready for netbook form factors (larger screens and keyboards and touchpads). Moblin (now Meego) isnt there yet. Ubuntu is kind of new on ARM. ChromeOS isnt there yet. WindowsCE, well. hah. Most OEMs seem to go for Android, but the last time I saw a demo of android on netbook form factor, it seemed there was still a lot of work to be done on the GUI side.

- Flash.
Apple may have the guts to ignore flash, but no other OEM seems that daring.

- Intel.
I cant imagine intel is not leaning very hard on OEMs to not release ARM based netbooks as this opens the floodgates for competition with Atom, and eventually even higherend x86 chips. Its almost like intel drew a line in the sand: ARM based phones and tablets are okay, netbooks are not.

Anyway, Im pretty confident these things will arrive en masse this year, and Im quite looking forward to buying one myself. Something with a 12" touch screen if possible, thank you :)

chappajar
April 21st, 2010, 02:15 PM
I was confident they'd be out last year :p

There are some Android TVs/settop-boxes coming out, so I think they've probably got Android sorted for screens larger than phone.
Google might release a netbook (or tablet :()when they release Chrome OS. I don't want Chrome (I don't have internet access everywhere) but I'll bet Google get the hardware right, so I could install Ubuntu or similar on it.

P4man
April 21st, 2010, 02:25 PM
There are some Android TVs/settop-boxes coming out, so I think they've probably got Android sorted for screens larger than phone.

There is also keyboard/mouse(touchpad) and other GUI stuff to adapt. For instance, i just saw this preview of a $65 (!) android "netbook" that apparently is on sale already in mediamarkt (for €150):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5WrNb4hXCc

Notice how the onscreen keyboard pops up while typing and similar issues. Maybe they are solved now, but if so, they havent been for very long me thinks.

heads off to mediamarkt now to see if they actually have one of these :p

Shining Arcanine
April 21st, 2010, 02:34 PM
I am really excited about Nvidia's Tegra 2 processor. My little cousin wants a laptop and if one based on Tegra 2 became available, it would be a birthday/christmas present for him depending on the time of the year, assuming it is inexpensive.

madjr
April 21st, 2010, 02:53 PM
http://www.archos.com/img/nox_main/elem_gen7/archos5it_tmp2_en.jpg

archos 5 with android
http://www.archos.com/products/imt/archos_5it/internet.html?country=us&lang=en&p=feat31&v=yes


dual OS
http://www.archos.com/products/imt/archos_5it/dualos.html?country=us&lang=en

https://store.archos.com/

some refurbished
http://store.archos.com/refurb.php?language=en

chappajar
April 29th, 2010, 03:37 PM
I'm hanging out for a decent ARM based netbook, that will be cheap, and last all day. I know there's a few ultra-low end ones around with about the same processing power as a decent calculator, but I'm looking for something a little better, maybe with a Tegra, Snapdragon, or top end Freescale processor.

The following from Engadget look promising:


Pegatron/Freescale/Ubuntu (http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/22/pegatrons-ubuntu-equipped-netbook-spotted-in-the-wild/)

Asus/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/30/asus-android-based-secret-weapon-smartbook-launching-in-q1/)

This one (http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/15/cherrypal-debuts-99-netbook-names-it-africa/) probably not enough IMO

Pegatron/Tegra/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/08/asus-pegatron-neo-with-tegra-2-hands-on/)

Mobinova/Tegra/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/nvidia-tegra-2-powered-mobinnova-beam-hands-on/)

HP/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/hp-mini-snapdragon-powered-android-hands-on/)

Lenovo/Snapdragon/Skylight(Linux) (http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/05/lenovo-skylight-its-first-arm-snapdragon-based-smartbook-com/) - too expensive

Lenovo?/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/26/lenovos-snapdragon-smartbook-gets-android-pictured-properly/)

And of course now that we know Google is happy to sell hardware, it may be worth waiting for the Google netbook (http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/28/googles-chrome-os-based-netbook-specs-leak-out-look-good/)

EDIT:

Compaq/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/12/compaq-airlife-100-puts-android-os-snapdragon-cpu-and-an-ssd-b/?s=t5)

Samsung/Snapdragon/Chrome (http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/13/samsung-doing-a-10-inch-chrome-os-netbook-later-this-year/)

ASUS/Snapdragon/Android (http://www.tweaktown.com/news/12339/eee_pc_spotted_running_android_qualcomm_1ghz_cpu/)


An update on the HP/SnapDragon/Android one from above: http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/20/hp-compaq-airlife-100-specs-revealed-on-its-official-webpage/

Another update: http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/28/compaq-airlife-100-exclusively-available-to-telefonica-customers/

Price is 229 Euros, on contract! They are dreaming...
You would think they'd have someone in their company who could point out that people can buy a better machine for less, and without a contract, wouldn't you?

drewmat7
May 8th, 2010, 07:21 AM
A quick check of Ebay or youtube will show the flood of cheap android Arm devices this is a common one and they have a tablet too..all via arm 9
http://cgi.ebay.com/7-Inch-Netbook-Android-OS-WiFI-/250613070369 the feed back is good,,hasnt cheated anyone yet
If you buy from a Us seller at least you can yell at em on the phone ,pay by Paypal!! and at least you will get your money back

kapcom01
July 13th, 2010, 01:32 AM
so is there any ARM laptop with at least 12 inches screen out there to buy yet?

paultrafalgar
September 4th, 2010, 02:18 PM
Toshiba AC100 Android Smartbook is just coming on the market. There are unboxing videos on Youtube. I will buy one of these when someone demonstrates how to put Ubuntu on it. Let me know if you find any information on it.

jrusso2
September 4th, 2010, 04:44 PM
What a year ago you were all so sure Ubuntu was going to dominate these netbooks because there was no windows for it?

P4man
September 6th, 2010, 10:41 AM
Toshiba AC100 Android Smartbook is just coming on the market. There are unboxing videos on Youtube. I will buy one of these when someone demonstrates how to put Ubuntu on it. Let me know if you find any information on it.

I am very curious about this too. All I found about this was this link:
http://www.blogarm.net/toshiba-ac-100-il-est-la-il-est-la-il-est-la/

Its in french and the interesting part is in the comments where someome claims the video drivers for tegra do not work with current (non android) linux kernels, but that this "would be fixed for ubuntu 10.10". No idea how accurate that is.

P4man
September 6th, 2010, 10:44 AM
What a year ago you were all so sure Ubuntu was going to dominate these netbooks because there was no windows for it?

Sounds like flame bait and a strawman rolled in to one, but to me it seems ubuntu would be a far better choice for a keyboard/mouse device at this point (android 3.0 may or may not change that, personally I think ChromeOS will be the OS of choice for smartbooks) but its obvious OEMs see android devices selling by the gazillions and ubuntu devices by the handful and are therefore taking the "prudent" approach.

Either way, windows is not going to be installed on a lot of these ARM devices.

formaldehyde_spoon
September 6th, 2010, 01:32 PM
So far now there's the HP Airlife, the Toshiba AC100, and i saw another one just a couple of days ago with a Cortex A9 processor, but for the life of me I can't remember where...:(
It was (also) overpriced anyway.

I wonder how long it will take OEMs to realize that they'll have to play to ARMs strong points (low $, long battery life) if they want to get any marketshare. Otherwise they'll just be outgunned by Atoms.


Slightly off topic, I saw my first Android netbook in a large retailer today, Asus, seemed nice but still x86 hardware, and priced way too high.

P4man
September 7th, 2010, 12:37 PM
So far now there's the HP Airlife, the Toshiba AC100, and i saw another one just a couple of days ago with a Cortex A9 processor, but for the life of me I can't remember where...:(
It was (also) overpriced anyway.

You sure? The only cortex A9 soc actually shipping today is the tegra 2, and afaik the toshiba is the only netbook based around it for now (airlife is snapdragon based). There are a million tablets on their way based on tegra, but I havent seen any other netbooks, certainly not for sale.



I wonder how long it will take OEMs to realize that they'll have to play to ARMs strong points (low $, long battery life) if they want to get any marketshare. Otherwise they'll just be outgunned by Atoms.


The problem is software. Android 2.2 isnt fully baked yet and very, very unoptimized for non touchscreen devices. I mean seriously, you cant even scroll with a mouse. Doesnt help that there are all sorts of problems like the toshiba running out of battery on standby in less than a day due to a 3G modem that isnt even installed. Android is a fine mobile phone OS, it will do okay on tablets, but its far from a good desktop/laptop OS.

I hope the upcoming sales disaster isnt going to make OEMs draw the wrong conclusion that ARM based laptops dont sell, but the right conclusion that they need an appropriate OS and application stack. ChromeOS might be a better solution, ubuntu probably already is although Ive never used ubuntu on ARM.



Slightly off topic, I saw my first Android netbook in a large retailer today, Asus, seemed nice but still x86 hardware, and priced way too high.


I assume you mean this one:
http://www.connectionpros.com/acer-intros-dual-boot-androidwindows-xp-netbook

It dual boots with windows.

formaldehyde_spoon
September 7th, 2010, 05:09 PM
You sure? The only cortex A9 soc actually shipping today is the tegra 2, and afaik the toshiba is the only netbook based around it for now (airlife is snapdragon based). There are a million tablets on their way based on tegra, but I havent seen any other netbooks, certainly not for sale.



The problem is software. Android 2.2 isnt fully baked yet and very, very unoptimized for non touchscreen devices. I mean seriously, you cant even scroll with a mouse. Doesnt help that there are all sorts of problems like the toshiba running out of battery on standby in less than a day due to a 3G modem that isnt even installed. Android is a fine mobile phone OS, it will do okay on tablets, but its far from a good desktop/laptop OS.

I hope the upcoming sales disaster isnt going to make OEMs draw the wrong conclusion that ARM based laptops dont sell, but the right conclusion that they need an appropriate OS and application stack. ChromeOS might be a better solution, ubuntu probably already is although Ive never used ubuntu on ARM.



I assume you mean this one:
http://www.connectionpros.com/acer-intros-dual-boot-androidwindows-xp-netbook

It dual boots with windows.

No, not sure ;) It was something reasonable, but I'd only had one night's sleep in four days when I saw it, so I could easily be wrong...

I agree with you about OS's - you can't go around mixing touch/non-touch OSs/devices, it just doesn't give a good result (and that goes both ways ie. Windows on a tablet).

Yes, probably that one. Didn't notice it was dual boot. It was a bit weird not having the 4 android buttons, I couldn't figure out how to get around.

init1
September 7th, 2010, 05:49 PM
Yeah, I'd be interested in a cheap, fan-less ARM netbook with great battery life for web browsing and note taking. So far, nothing decent has been released. There are quite a few Windows CE and Android netbooks available, but the quality is too low to even consider.
The OpenPandora might be good, although it's I think it's a bit more expensive than originally projected. It was supposed to be released years ago, but it looks like it'll actually be available soon.

P4man
September 7th, 2010, 10:53 PM
Yeah, I'd be interested in a cheap, fan-less ARM netbook with great battery life for web browsing and note taking. So far, nothing decent has been released. There are quite a few Windows CE and Android netbooks available, but the quality is too low to even consider.

Both the HP airlife and toshiba AC100 seem decent enough hardware wise. If its possible to replace android with an OS that works better for that form factor (like ubuntu), Id certainly consider either, even though the toshiba is a bit pricy still and the HP not available here.

formaldehyde_spoon
September 8th, 2010, 03:17 AM
Yeah, I'd be interested in a cheap, fan-less ARM netbook with great battery life for web browsing and note taking. So far, nothing decent has been released. There are quite a few Windows CE and Android netbooks available, but the quality is too low to even consider.
The OpenPandora might be good, although it's I think it's a bit more expensive than originally projected. It was supposed to be released years ago, but it looks like it'll actually be available soon.

What P4man said.

OpenPandora is designed to be a portable gaming device, and at 4.3'' I wouldn't want to type more than my name ;) (and it's already shipping, btw).

There are plenty of good ARM netbooks ''on the way'' (and they've been ''on the way'' for at least a year...). I'm most interested in Pegatron's netbook, and maybe the Mobinova one, when/if they start shipping.

3rdalbum
September 8th, 2010, 06:46 AM
I wonder how long it will take OEMs to realize that they'll have to play to ARMs strong points (low $, long battery life) if they want to get any marketshare.

Power-to-performance, Atom just out-edges ARM when you're talking about the kinds of CPUs you'd find in netbooks. The ARMs are something like 35% slower and use 30% less power than the original single-core Atoms. The newer Atoms with the integrated graphics may end off being more efficient still.

x86 netbooks with extreme energy efficiency (that can run for over 8 hours in between charges) are currently available from at least one manufacturer and are on the drawing boards of several other manufacturers. The rest of the netbook's components are developed for efficiency too. The CPU is not a big part of the computer's power use.

As for price - I wouldn't be surprised if Atom-based netbooks end off being cheaper, there's about a billion of 'em in the marketplace right now, and almost no decent-performance ARM netbooks.

P4man
September 8th, 2010, 09:15 AM
Power-to-performance, Atom just out-edges ARM when you're talking about the kinds of CPUs you'd find in netbooks. The ARMs are something like 35% slower and use 30% less power than the original single-core Atoms. The newer Atoms with the integrated graphics may end off being more efficient still.

Where are you getting those numbers from?
Cortex A9 seens roughly on par with atom at similar clocks, perhaps slower on some loads, faster on others. Here is coremark:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_l82fIgiKElI/S7_D4aug-aI/AAAAAAAAAFs/wNPHss2-bcc/s1600/Table-1.gif

Be very VERY careful comparing application performance. The OS and software stack is evolving quite rapidly and just changing android from 2.1 to 2.2 can give a performance boost on things like web browsing that dwarfs any difference in CPU speed.

Now Atoms do run at higher clock speeds for now, which probably gives them the edge performance wise, but 2 GHz cortex A9 are on their way and ARM recently taped out the design for a dual core 2.5 GHz implementation with a turbo boost to 2.8 GHz:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2010/09/02/arm-tapes-2-5ghz-processor/1

Its aimed at mobile phones, so probably still fits within <1W TDP. Contrast that with the current ipad for instance, which is a single core, 1 GHz soc and based on the older and slower cortex A8. So thats twice the cores, almost 3x the clock and something like an extra 25% boost from the architecture. Good luck keeping up, intel !

Power consumption wise, the "original" single core Atom isnt even in the same ballpark, its literally orders of magnitude worse than any ARM chip. I assume you meant Moorestown, which is a stripped down single core atom. Its a brand new design specifically made to compete with ARM in the sub 1W space. Its getting closer but still isnt there when it comes to battery lifem or even peak power. There is a reason no one is buying these for tablets or phones (Well, no one but cisco who are building a $1000 tablet around it lol).


As for price - I wouldn't be surprised if Atom-based netbooks end off being cheaper, there's about a billion of 'em in the marketplace right now, and almost no decent-performance ARM netbooks.

Yeah for now OEMs will try to milk the ARM advantage and charge extra for the longer battery life and thinner design. On low end x86 netbooks, OEMs have a gross margin of a few dollars. Literally. I saw a cost breakdown of a cheap netbook that left the OEM with $6 margin. On the AC100 and similar ARM based designs, I suspect its north of $100. Cant blame OEMs to want to make a buck when they can.

But the simple fact of the matter is ARM chips and platforms only cost a fraction of intel's and once competition heats up, those retail prices will plummet. There is no way Atom can compete pricewise when ARM chips sell by the billions (again, literally) from a dozen suppliers and Atoms by the millions from a single monopolist that also has to protect its higher margin markets.

In short, ARMs challenge isnt on the hardware side. Its software.

formaldehyde_spoon
September 8th, 2010, 01:51 PM
Power-to-performance, Atom just out-edges ARM when you're talking about the kinds of CPUs you'd find in netbooks. The ARMs are something like 35% slower and use 30% less power than the original single-core Atoms. The newer Atoms with the integrated graphics may end off being more efficient still.

x86 netbooks with extreme energy efficiency (that can run for over 8 hours in between charges) are currently available from at least one manufacturer and are on the drawing boards of several other manufacturers. The rest of the netbook's components are developed for efficiency too. The CPU is not a big part of the computer's power use.

As for price - I wouldn't be surprised if Atom-based netbooks end off being cheaper, there's about a billion of 'em in the marketplace right now, and almost no decent-performance ARM netbooks.

Those figures are just plain wrong, 3rdalbum. There's a nice analysis of a comparison floating around somewhere, I'll try to find it and post the link. EDIT: http://iltsarnews.blogspot.com/2010/04/arm-vs-x86-low-power-vs-performance.html

In fact as a ball-park figure ARM chips consume just one quarter of the power an Atom does, while being about 30% less powerful.
Excellent ProcessingPower/EnergyConsumption ratio is ARMs strongest point, and the main factor that keeps them ahead of their competitors.

CPUs ARE a big part of netbook energy consumption. For an Atom netbook averaging about 9W, it's CPU is averaging about 4W. That's a lot. If you were to then cut that down to 1W by replacing it with an ARM processor you've just lowered your consumption by 33%. Even if the netbook were averaging 15W, that'd still be a 20% drop.

8 hours is nothing these days. MSI U110 is advertised as 15 hrs, Asus 1005PE is advertised at 14hr (I have one of these, and can get up to 12 hrs with Ubuntu), and there are plenty of other x86 netbooks up around there too. ARM netbooks will do even better when OEMs decide they want to make a long lasting ARM netbook.

I knew I'd heard this before:
That's a difference of 2-3 watts. Laptops generally use between 15 and 45 watts. My Atom-based netbook got 2 hours out of its battery - so a similar ARM netbook would get 1/5th more (20%) which is a total battery life of 2 hours and 40 minutes.

... My netbook goes from 5.5W (idle) to 12W.

tsh
September 8th, 2010, 02:26 PM
What P4man said.

OpenPandora is designed to be a portable gaming device, and at 4.3'' I wouldn't want to type more than my name ;)

I use mine mostly for web browsing, and the keyboard (once you get used to it) is fine for forums and stuff (and even for editing scripts). It is far better for example than using an android phone to reply to stuff on a forum.

I've not succeeded in getting an ubuntu image to run on it yet though (10.10 beta didn't load X, the omap-fb driver seems to be missing)

P4man
September 8th, 2010, 04:14 PM
Those figures are just plain wrong, 3rdalbum. There's a nice analysis of a comparison floating around somewhere, I'll try to find it and post the link. EDIT: http://iltsarnews.blogspot.com/2010/04/arm-vs-x86-low-power-vs-performance.html

I really wouldnt read too much in to those tests. At least not by just looking at the charts. Ive seen them before, and the author used what was available to him, but for the ARM chip it paints a terrible picture because that freescale chip is as bad as it gets (no wonder you dont see it used anywhere), and the platform they used even worse. Look at that memory subsystem, that just doesnt show what ARM cores are capable off. Thats like booting ubuntu from floppy disks to determine its a slow OS.

The only test that is not affected by the abysmal memory controller on that pegasus system is coremark which runs almost entirely onchip. No surprise on that test even the old Cortex A8 is rather competitive. Ignore the rest.


CPUs ARE a big part of netbook energy consumption. For an Atom netbook averaging about 9W, it's CPU is averaging about 4W. That's a lot.


Not all Atoms are equal. I think 3rdalbum was referring to Moorestown, which has a TDP (therefore maximum realworld powerconsumption) below 1 watt. That is approaching ARM solutions which are typically in the 6-700mW range. Again TDP.

For battery life, idle and standby power consumption is at least as important though. ARM chips idle at sub 10 mW and in standby their powerconsumption is expressed in mircowatts (hence instant on, weeks long standby); Atoms, even moorestowns, just arent there yet.

One last point; ARM SoCs integrate almost everything on the chip. The cpu cores, but also the GPU, the I/O, special encode and decode units, power and system management, camera controllers, audio controllers, touchscreen controllers, in some cases even RAM.

Atoms are not nearly as integrated. Not even moorestown, which still requires 7 chips before it becomes a basic mobile phone. So you have to compare complete platforms, not just the cpus.

demal
September 8th, 2010, 11:58 PM
There is this thing https://www.genesi-usa.com/store/details/12 for sale,
but i'm still holding out for this slew of A9 stuff that has been justaroundthecorner forever now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEovlXFKm84 sounds promising, but there were similar prototypes floating around the better part of a year ago, so who knows when one will finally be available.

bfc
September 9th, 2010, 12:04 AM
interesting comments from Qualcomm regarding smartbooks... Might explain why we haven't seen a bunch of smartbooks released as everyone expected.

http://gigaom.com/2010/09/08/qualcomm-admits-it-apples-ipad-killed-smartbooks/

mike_1
September 10th, 2010, 12:45 AM
Any updates on installing ubuntu on the Toshiba AC100? (Toshiba AZ in Japan).

Cheers,
Mike.

mikewhatever
September 10th, 2010, 01:12 PM
interesting comments from Qualcomm regarding smartbooks... Might explain why we haven't seen a bunch of smartbooks released as everyone expected.

http://gigaom.com/2010/09/08/qualcomm-admits-it-apples-ipad-killed-smartbooks/

I'd still very much prefer an Ubuntu powered 200$ ARM based netbook to the ipad. However, if that comment by Qualcomm CEO even remotely represents the stance of big OEMs, people can forget about ARM netbooks.

mips
September 10th, 2010, 01:58 PM
I'd still very much prefer an Ubuntu powered 200$ ARM based netbook to the ipad. However, if that comment by Qualcomm CEO even remotely represents the stance of big OEMs, people can forget about ARM netbooks.

I would love a dual core Cortex A15 netbook running Arch+Openbox.

I need a real keyboard, tablet lacks that.

P4man
September 10th, 2010, 04:58 PM
I'd still very much prefer an Ubuntu powered 200$ ARM based netbook to the ipad. However, if that comment by Qualcomm CEO even remotely represents the stance of big OEMs, people can forget about ARM netbooks.

Im not buying that argument for a second. Apple is now projected to sell 28 million ipads next year. Why on earth would all other OEMs throw the towel then, especially since the ipad has quite a few weak spots (no flash, no usb, hefty price tag etc).

I do want to believe the ipad caused a delay for android tablets, for the simple reason that it was and is rather good, especially the software stack which is nicely optimised. Browsing performance is rather impressive considering the mediocre hardware. With android 1.6 and without access to android marketplace, you are simply not going to compete (look at dell streak reviews) and promising flash but not having it actually work isnt going to help either.

However, tablets and netbooks are very different beasts. Im sure there is some overlap and some people may buy a tablet that would otherwise have bought netbooks, but there is definitely a market for both. I suspect Apple will prove that again later this year, as I suspect they will release a mac air like netbook based on their A5.

Shining Arcanine
September 10th, 2010, 06:00 PM
What about ARM laptops? I am more interested in laptops than "netbooks", which are nothing more than shrunken laptops.

P4man
September 10th, 2010, 07:17 PM
What about ARM laptops? I am more interested in laptops than "netbooks", which are nothing more than shrunken laptops.

For a full size laptop, you need a laptop OS and application stack. Something more capable than iOS or Android. I mean, you need an office suite at the very least (and support for scroll wheel, right mouse click, scrollbars,..). The only viable OS option for that at the moment is a linux distro like ubuntu, but I dont see any OEM designing a laptop that realistically can only run ubuntu. Especially not since doing so would greatly upset two of their most important suppliers (intel and MS).

ChromeOS might change that. Until then, no chance I think.

Another problem is video performance. Im not sure how well current ARM socs would do on a high resolution screen. Tegra might be able to cope with it, perhaps, but none of others I think.

mikewhatever
September 11th, 2010, 12:27 PM
Im not buying that argument for a second. Apple is now projected to sell 28 million ipads next year. Why on earth would all other OEMs throw the towel then, especially since the ipad has quite a few weak spots (no flash, no usb, hefty price tag etc).

I do want to believe the ipad caused a delay for android tablets, for the simple reason that it was and is rather good, especially the software stack which is nicely optimised. Browsing performance is rather impressive considering the mediocre hardware. With android 1.6 and without access to android marketplace, you are simply not going to compete (look at dell streak reviews) and promising flash but not having it actually work isnt going to help either.

However, tablets and netbooks are very different beasts. Im sure there is some overlap and some people may buy a tablet that would otherwise have bought netbooks, but there is definitely a market for both. I suspect Apple will prove that again later this year, as I suspect they will release a mac air like netbook based on their A5.

The explanation has its flaws, but it is at least an attempt, by someone close to OEMs, to explain why a host of ARM netbooks, that was supposed to appear in 2009, is still not on sale.

P4man
September 11th, 2010, 12:44 PM
The explanation has its flaws, but it is at least an attempt, by someone close to OEMs, to explain why a host of ARM netbooks, that was supposed to appear in 2009, is still not on sale.

ARM themselves blame flash:
http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/05/06/lenovo.others.held.up.by.flash.optimizations/

And this paragraph also gives a clue:

Drew wouldn't tell ZDNet exactly what had triggered the delay but said there was "lots of heavy lifting" involve in getting it to work. As an Internet-dependent notebook, it was important that Flash work well enough to be usefu

My interpretation of that "heavy lifting" is that its on the software side of things, specifically the OS. One can understand why an ARM VP or Qualcomm CEO wouldnt want to anger google and go on record saying they cant launch any products because android currently sucks for netbooks, but the simple fact is that it does.

As for ubuntu, canonical announced a 10.07 for ARM netbooks back in June. What happened to that?

matthewbpt
September 11th, 2010, 01:54 PM
I would love a dual core Cortex A15 netbook running Arch+Openbox.

I need a real keyboard, tablet lacks that.
I don't think that Arch has an ARM port, I think I would choose debian over Ubuntu ARM as it is more mature. A very interesting option would be Meego which looks to be a very interesting distro, and I think that once Meego is completed we will likely see a few ARM netbooks released with it.

mips
September 11th, 2010, 09:13 PM
I don't think that Arch has an ARM port,...

http://www.archmobile.org/

It does not have many packages at the moment but it will eventually get there, there is a guide for installing it on a SheevaPlug besides the openmoko device. Debian is probably a more sensible option right now as you suggested.

matthewbpt
September 13th, 2010, 11:06 AM
http://www.archmobile.org/

It does not have many packages at the moment but it will eventually get there, there is a guide for installing it on a SheevaPlug besides the openmoko device. Debian is probably a more sensible option right now as you suggested.
That looks great, I'd love to install that on my Nokia N900, just for the fun of it.

P4man
September 14th, 2010, 03:29 PM
A chinese company called nufront is working on a 2 GHz cortex A9 soc, and are working on getting ubuntu and android on it for tablets, notebooks and... PCs. We probably wont see it anywhere for another year but the future looks promising:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20100913007496/en

mike_1
September 23rd, 2010, 02:04 PM
Does anyone know if all the packages available for debian/i386 are available for debian/arm?.
I'm referring to things like gimp, openoffice and more productivity-type applications.

Thanks.

matthewbpt
September 23rd, 2010, 02:22 PM
Does anyone know if all the packages available for debian/i386 are available for debian/arm?.
I'm referring to things like gimp, openoffice and more productivity-type applications.

Thanks.
Open Office is available http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=openoffice&searchon=names&suite=stable&section=all , use the search to find any other packages, but I think practically everything in the debian repos is available for all their supported architectures

P4man
October 2nd, 2010, 08:05 PM
These guys hacked a Toshiba AC100 and put ubuntu 10.10 on it:
http://carrypad.com/2010/10/01/hacked-toshiba-ac100-ubuntu-10-10-is-running/

Now Im drooling.

formaldehyde_spoon
October 3rd, 2010, 01:10 AM
These guys hacked a Toshiba AC100 and put ubuntu 10.10 on it:
http://carrypad.com/2010/10/01/hacked-toshiba-ac100-ubuntu-10-10-is-running/

Now Im drooling.

Beautiful! If they make these available locally I might go to the trouble of buying one and doing that myself.

P4man
October 5th, 2010, 08:07 AM
Carrypad just posted a video of ubuntu running on the ac100:
http://carrypad.com/2010/10/02/coming-to-you-from-ubuntu-on-the-arm-based-ac100-its-working-well/

That looks very promising. Still no sound or flash or videoplayback, but performance is rather impressive given the constraints (512 Mb and a slow sd card).

zman0900
December 6th, 2010, 10:07 AM
Has anyone see this one? EFIKA MX Smartbook
http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/smartbook

Looks interesting, but not much info about operating system or how open it is. I wish I knew more, but their faq link is broken.

freechelmi
December 6th, 2010, 10:14 AM
Has anyone see this one? EFIKA MX Smartbook
http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/smartbook

Looks interesting, but not much info about operating system or how open it is. I wish I knew more, but their faq link is broken.

yes it's been 1 year people were waiting for the release to the public and it's been few weeks available in the shop.

the problem is that it's coming a bit late on Hardware : 800 Mhz 1 core (am i right ?) for the price 350$.

BUT : it's really the first real smartbook with Ubuntu supported because the Toshiba AC100 with Android is too limited really quickly. AND the genesi guys submit patches to Ubuntu ....


SO it's still a great deal I guess.

freechelmi
March 2nd, 2011, 09:05 AM
the problem is that it's coming a bit late on Hardware : 800 Mhz 1 core (am i right ?) for the price 350$.


Hi , genesi now sells its SmartBook for 200$ ! and 250 with 3G .

Slightly more pricy for Europe but with the right keyboard !

I think even with the 800 Mhz CPU it's definitly the best SmartBook for Ubuntu Around

pi3.1415926535...
April 3rd, 2011, 03:48 AM
I think the prospects for ARM netbooks are definitely improving, considering dual core chip appearing in smart phones, and this (http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/tms320c6678.html), from Texas Instruments, and eight core processor, one and a quarter Ghz per core.

doudou4978
April 16th, 2011, 08:05 PM
Announced but not yet available, the eCafe (slim or EX) HD (http://www.hercules.com/fr/ecafe/) seems quite interesting. A modified version of Ubuntu is installed on it.
Let's wait!

Meizirkki
November 10th, 2011, 07:12 PM
A full size OMAP4 laptop would be awesome. I had the Alwaysinnovating touchbook, but it was completely unusable and a bit underpowered. :(

newbie2
November 10th, 2011, 08:01 PM
The upcoming Nabi tablet is designed specifically with young children in mind. It features a “kiddified” user interface for web browsing, entertainment, learning, and more. The Nabi tablet comes preloaded with a bunch of kid-friendly apps including 30 apps for drawing and painting, 30 pre-loaded ebooks, access to Fooz Kids University, a site with lots of learning tools for kids of all ages. Additional apps can be downloaded from the custom Nabi App store, which features over 500 apps.
http://www.droidmatters.com/news/toys-r-us-selling-nabi-a-kid-friendly-android-tablet-for-199-99/
http://www.droidmatters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/nabi-tablet.jpg