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J V
December 30th, 2009, 06:42 PM
Edit: Putting this up here to stop the OT,

This is a Theory on why some people find ubuntu/linux too difficult

Not a statement just a theory, only applies to those who actually tried it and thought it was too hard during install, not people who leave because of iphones, or never come because of "Bad marketing" - PLEASE stay on topic: thank you

I have a theory on why some people find ubuntu/linux too hard to use...

There are generally 3 schools of thought:
1. Its ready for the desktop
2. Its not ready for the desktop
3. Its ready for the desktop if someone installs it for them

If you believe either of the top 2 are correct, stop right here.

Now, while people often have freinds to help them install ubuntu for them, when the next release pops up, they have to do it themselves...

This is when they freak out and switch back to windows, because there will be some bestbuy moron who will spend 3 days figuring out how to install it for them.

I can think of a number of things that could be done that would stop this problem:

1. Longer release dates
A recurring theme, all ubuntu releases seem to be incredibly bugged down and rushed nowadays, a 1 year release cycle would make things work smoother, and also leave a longer time for new users to use their new OS before needing to upgrade
2. Upgrade timeout
The option to upgrade should be disabled by default until a month or so after release, this way most bugs will be worked out.

Naturally it will still be available by going to prefs and enabling it, but hopefully this timeout will also help fix the upgrade issues (Which, lets face it, will always be around)
3. Fresh upgrade
This little idea I've been working on is a "Fresh upgrade" program.

Instead of upgrading the system files, this program will create a small backup partition, with on it, the user data, their /homes, a list of manually installed applications (Sorry synaptic, this one still doesn't work), and optionally "Upgrade scripts"

Of course a .tar.gz would be supplied as backup should the install fail.

The program will then install the new OS, fresh, add the users and their files, install the applications necessary, or make necessary changes through "Upgrade scripts"

Upgrade scripts would be simple scripts designed by the maintainers of packages, and would "Import" altered settings into the newly installed programs after a fresh upgrade.

Programs like the late dontzap being replaced would make changes in the other apps settings files, others would simply apply the changes to the new version.

Afterwards the backup partition would be merged with the main one, and the install is complete.
All of this will make the "Too hard to install" problem go away, meaning people will be much more ready to use ubuntu or other linux distributions.

Thoughts? Comments?

markp1989
December 30th, 2009, 06:46 PM
3. Its ready for the desktop if someone installs it for them



thats like windows really, give someone who uses windows every day (just for internet etc but doesnt understand any more then usage) a blank pc and a windows install disk + drivers disk and most of them wouldnt have a clue what there doing, and they would be having lots of hardware support issues.

oems like dell selling computers with linux preinstalled is the best way to get wide usage , my sister uses ubuntu now ( i set it up for her) , and she is clueless when it comes to setting up anything, and she is happy with it.

she said she likes the feeling of having all of her software not costing her a penny and still being legal.

Shpongle
December 30th, 2009, 06:48 PM
thats like windows really, give someone who uses windows every day (just for internet etc but doesnt understand any more then usage) a blank pc and a windows install disk + drivers disk and most of them wouldnt have a clue what there doing, and they would be having lots of hardware support issues.

exactly! ,

J V
December 30th, 2009, 06:52 PM
thats like windows really, give someone who uses windows every day (just for internet etc but doesnt understand any more then usage) a blank pc and a windows install disk + drivers disk and most of them wouldnt have a clue what there doing, and they would be having lots of hardware support issues.This is part of my point, if ubuntu didn't require a reinstall every 18 months, it would probably be much more popular...

markbabc
December 30th, 2009, 06:53 PM
when i try and convince people to use linux mostly ubuntu they start complaining and have this weird idea that its all command line and you cant even get to the internet and then i try to show them what ubuntu really is but they are to stubborn to walk away from m$

MasterNetra
December 30th, 2009, 06:54 PM
...
I can think of a number of things that could be done that would stop this problem:

1. Longer release dates[INDENT]A recurring theme, all ubuntu releases seem to be incredibly bugged down and rushed nowadays, a 1 year release cycle would make things work smoother, and also leave a longer time for new users to use their new OS before needing to upgrade ...


This is part of my point, if ubuntu didn't require a reinstall every 18 months, it would probably be much more popular...

Umm yea there is the LTS you know. LTS's come about every two years and have 3 year support. (5 year for servers)

(Source: Common Knowledge and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS)


thats like windows really, give someone who uses windows every day (just for internet etc but doesnt understand any more then usage) a blank pc and a windows install disk + drivers disk and most of them wouldnt have a clue what there doing, and they would be having lots of hardware support issues.

oems like dell selling computers with linux preinstalled is the best way to get wide usage , my sister uses ubuntu now ( i set it up for her) , and she is clueless when it comes to setting up anything, and she is happy with it.

she said she likes the feeling of having all of her software not costing her a penny and still being legal.

+1

Linux_junkie
December 30th, 2009, 07:00 PM
I think its something even more simple than your theory. I believe why so many continue to use Windows and other MS applications like MS Office is simply that is what they use in the office and they don't want to or adapt that knowledge to other operating systems like Linux and applications like OpenOffice.

In that way I think Linux (whatever distro) will only be a hobbyist thing.

Linux_junkie

earthpigg
December 30th, 2009, 07:04 PM
This is when they freak out and switch back to windows, because there will be some bestbuy moron who will spend 3 days figuring out how to install it for them.

offer to install/upgrade to version "X" of linux/unix over a 3 day period for money. find out what bestbuy morons charge, and charge half of that. most linux distros are a cakewalk to install, so you will likely earn the same or more per hour of actual work as the bestbuy morons.

maybe make a list of a dozen 'supported' distros with 'more available upon request'...

the top 10 of distrowatch is an easy place to start. arch is on there at the moment, but once you've done it a few times it isn't that bad... and few people that can't install a distro on their own will be requesting it, so its a non-concern.

J V
December 30th, 2009, 07:05 PM
Umm yea there is the LTS you know. LTS's come about every two years and have 3 year support. (5 year for servers)Of course I know about LTS, that doesn't help much though... The leaps ubuntu has made since 8.04 are so big, if you have only one computer, chances are you'll want to upgrade.

Besides, after those 3 years you still need to reinstall, which is still about half the time of windows...


I think its something even more simple than your theory. I believe why so many continue to use Windows and other MS applications like MS Office is simply that is what they use in the office and they don't want to or adapt that knowledge to other operating systems like Linux and applications like OpenOffice.

In that way I think Linux (whatever distro) will only be a hobbyist thing.I'm not talking about MS users, I'm talking about people who *did* try linux but thought the install was too complicated...


offer to install/upgrade to version "X" of linux/unix over a 3 day period for money. find out what bestbuy morons charge, and charge half of that. most linux distros are a cakewalk to install, so you will likely earn the same or more per hour of actual work as the bestbuy morons.Yes, but the "Average user" is going to walk into bestbuy and expect service, they also won't likley want to trust their PC into the hands of a complete stranger they met on a forum. There are linux service companies, but not widespeard enough to serve everyone...

HappinessNow
December 30th, 2009, 07:08 PM
I know people who abandoned Linux because they couldn't get iTunes to run on it.

pwnst*r
December 30th, 2009, 07:13 PM
I know people who abandoned Linux because they couldn't get iTunes to run on it.

can you blame them?

Paqman
December 30th, 2009, 07:14 PM
Now, while people often have freinds to help them install ubuntu for them, when the next release pops up, they have to do it themselves...

This is when they freak out and switch back to windows

If that's the case, their friend should have installed the LTS release.

There's a certain school of thought that comes from the server side and recommends that the LTS releases are the real thing, and that the other releases are just "technology previews" for early adopters. I think this would be a smart way to go forward with Ubuntu.

HappinessNow
December 30th, 2009, 07:15 PM
can you blame them?drives me crazy!

earthpigg
December 30th, 2009, 07:19 PM
can you blame them?

by now, i suspect the vast majority of folks have heard others complain/ask about "how do i do [x] with an iPod/iTunes?" where 'x' is usually something involving 'copy music from point a to point b' that should be as simple as drag-and-drop...

iPods being 'easy to use' or 'user friendly' is a myth.

so yes, if they need iTunes for their iTurd and act surprised that it doesn't work easily... i blame them.

well, not 'blame' as in 'think they are a bad person' or whatever.

but 'blame' as in, "yes, im the local nerd and usually help people with stuff for free... when it comes to iCrap, this free help is in the form of helping to post it for sale on craigslist so you can use the money to buy something that is actually user friendly."

markp1989
December 30th, 2009, 07:21 PM
I know people who abandoned Linux because they couldn't get iTunes to run on it.

I did the first time i tried ubuntu *hangs head in shame*

pwnst*r
December 30th, 2009, 07:22 PM
er... using iTunes with a touch and/or iphone is super simple.

iTurd, really? i gave you more credit than that. oh well.

J V
December 30th, 2009, 07:26 PM
Enough about itunes lads, this is about people who found linux too complicated, not iphone issues :)

@Paqman: While its true that LTS could well be the "real version", how will the average user know that when they see "Upgrade to ubuntu karmic" in their update manager and "New version release!" on the website?

earthpigg
December 30th, 2009, 07:27 PM
er... using iTunes with a touch and/or iphone is super simple.

iTurd, really? i gave you more credit than that. oh well.

hehe, for some reason i think its a lot of iFun to put derogatory words after the i. impressing the world with my maturity isn't high on my list of priorities. :D

i fully intend to be the crazy old man making inappropriate comments in family settings.

my biggest concern in that area is the continuously rising threshold for 'inappropriate'.... how high will that threshold be by the time im an old man? will it be to high for me to handle? will i instead be an old man complaining about "kids these days"?!?!!?


this is a very disconcerting thought.

pwnst*r
December 30th, 2009, 07:29 PM
true, lol

MooPi
December 30th, 2009, 07:35 PM
The average computer user has no interest or inclination to do any software upgrade. In my experience if the software doesn't employ a pop-up warning when the software is dangerously out of date, nothing gets done at all. My family, friends and acquaintances do not know how to re-load/upgrade Windows anymore than Linux. That is why most of us on this forum have an extended group that depends on us for technical help. Don't deny it I know your all closest geek techs.

pizza-is-good
December 30th, 2009, 07:35 PM
3. Fresh upgrade
This little idea I've been working on is a "Fresh upgrade" program.

Instead of upgrading the system files, this program will create a small backup partition, with on it, the user data, their /homes, a list of manually installed applications (Sorry synaptic, this one still doesn't work), and optionally "Upgrade scripts"

Of course a .tar.gz would be supplied as backup should the install fail.

The program will then install the new OS, fresh, add the users and their files, install the applications necessary, or make necessary changes through "Upgrade scripts"

Upgrade scripts would be simple scripts designed by the maintainers of packages, and would "Import" altered settings into the newly installed programs after a fresh upgrade.

Programs like the late dontzap being replaced would make changes in the other apps settings files, others would simply apply the changes to the new version.

Afterwards the backup partition would be merged with the main one, and the install is complete.
I really like this idea. I have been thinking about something like that for a while.

I love Ubuntu, but it really is a pain to have to do a fresh install to get everything working right after an upgrade, and then having to put in all your programs and settings. If ubuntu would have this, it would make me and a lot of people so happy....:lolflag:

juancarlospaco
December 30th, 2009, 07:37 PM
Users---->Use

Techie Users---->Install and configure OS and Apps

Non technical user should never install an OS, can loose data and such

J V
December 30th, 2009, 07:49 PM
Non technical user should never install an OS, can loose data and suchok... but the problem is that "we" techie users don't want to have to install things for people twice a year...

So we tell them to do it themselves... Upgrade means catastrophe, fresh install is too complicated... Here we have a vicious circle...

Until there are more techie users to install, linux is too complicated...
Until linux is less complicated, there won't be enough techie users...

HappinessNow
December 30th, 2009, 08:04 PM
...I know your all closest geek techs.LOL, we should have a coming out parade! :P

juancarlospaco
December 30th, 2009, 08:10 PM
ok... but the problem is that "we" techie users don't want to have to install things for people twice a year...
So we tell them to do it themselves... Upgrade means catastrophe, fresh install is too complicated... Here we have a vicious circle...
Until there are more techie users to install, linux is too complicated...
Until linux is less complicated, there won't be enough techie users...

Nah, just do the same that does the Windows guys,
PAY, to upgrade, maintaniance, customizations, and such.

i got users paying to me twice a year, or more,
and very good "customer satisfaction" of open source and freedom.

MichealH
December 30th, 2009, 08:14 PM
when i try and convince people to use linux mostly ubuntu they start complaining and have this weird idea that its all command line and you cant even get to the internet and then i try to show them what ubuntu really is but they are to stubborn to walk away from m$

They only do say that because they have this vision in their mind I thought that before linux and when I wanted to be a computer techie I got told to learn linux and I paniced, I really shouldn't of thought that and had a go of 7.10 and I moved on to 9.04 in confidence.


I think its something even more simple than your theory. I believe why so many continue to use Windows and other MS applications like MS Office is simply that is what they use in the office and they don't want to or adapt that knowledge to other operating systems like Linux and applications like OpenOffice.

In that way I think Linux (whatever distro) will only be a hobbyist thing.

Linux_junkie

Its a hobby I have that is overpowering and now when I had enough of Windows 7 I forced myself to install Ubuntu again because It slows down my windows in Vbox so I dualbooted (Thinking of tripple booting x86 and x64 Ubuntu myself)


I know people who abandoned Linux because they couldn't get iTunes to run on it.

If I hear that I would tell them 'bout Wine because (If you dont already know) Wine runs all the windows apps and Wine can be easily installed by typing in a terminal:


sudo apt-get install wine
[/indent]I really like this idea. I have been thinking about something like that for a while.

I love Ubuntu, but it really is a pain to have to do a fresh install to get everything working right after an upgrade, and then having to put in all your programs and settings. If ubuntu would have this, it would make me and a lot of people so happy....:lolflag:

Unfortunatly you have that option use the migration asistant but for programs... Keep the .debs and install them straight after install. Like I do.

pwnst*r
December 30th, 2009, 08:18 PM
Wine runs all the windows apps



wrong.

Arthur_D
December 30th, 2009, 08:20 PM
If I hear that I would tell them 'bout Wine because (If you dont already know) Wine runs all the windows apps...
Wish you were right, bu unfortunately, you aren't.
AFAIR, iTunes is one of the programs that doesn't work with Wine.

Swagman
December 30th, 2009, 08:22 PM
I know people who abandoned Linux because they couldn't get iTunes to run on it.

Copy & Paste of my comment on OcUk



I can't quite grasp this iTunes thing ?

My daughters iPods (Plural - She's got the original and the new skinny one) both are seen as USB devices.

To buy Mp3's Amazon works great and works on Ubuntu native

http://www.upload3r.com/serve/261209/1261847951.jpeg


as pointed out on OcUk... iPhones apparently need iTunes ? Personally, I don't use my phone for Ch00ns.


[edit]

Just noticed something in my own screengrab. The Ubuntu Software Centre is spelt the correct way. Not the American way.

pizza-is-good
December 30th, 2009, 08:26 PM
Until there are more techie users to install, linux is too complicated...
Until linux is less complicated, there won't be enough techie users...

That's truth right there.

It's sad that it has to be that way....

Project PWNED
December 30th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Linux is difficult. I've been using it 10+ years and Ubuntu is going to make the situation worse. You have Kbuntu, Edbuntu, Xbuntu, Ubuntu Special Edition - aren't users going to get confused at the end and what if these developers on this different Ubuntus get into a little flame war (we all know this happens in open source projects) then break off to rename the project AGAIN.

If Ubuntu just booted up with the following:


What GUI do you want?
-> KDE
-> Gnome
-> XFCE
-> IceWM
-> Fluxbox


It would be a lot better. Plus I see too much work being done to the installer to make it look "pretty" when all functionality is garbage. I've been trying to install Ubuntu, with a GUI, for the last day or so on Virtual Box. When I ran tasksel from Ubuntu server, which I used on another machine, then chose Xbuntu - tasksel hung and I tried running dpkg --reconfigure -a, with no luck. I decided to run Ubuntu desktop iso and reinstall, same deal. I'm on Ubuntu alternate installer iso and currently about to reinstall yet again.

Then you guys wonder why people are so frustrated? I've got the experience and to think, I left Debian for better "driver" support. While this is true for my server, where my wireless PCI card was better supported, my experience with it on Virtual Box isn't that great.

pizza-is-good
December 30th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Just noticed something in my own screengrab. The Ubuntu Software Centre is spelt the correct way. Not the American way.

Mine's spelled Center, the 'American' way. I had to check when you wrote that...
We Americans are so lazy when it comes to English, especially spelling...:lolflag: Although this is not a good example, since it has the same amount of characters...


Favorite v. Favourite
Color v. Colour
etc. list goes on and on...

And you know what's funny, this forum, which I believe to be UK based(correct me if I'm wrong), says all those British spellings are wrong...

MichealH
December 30th, 2009, 08:32 PM
Wish you were right, bu unfortunately, you aren't.
AFAIR, iTunes is one of the programs that doesn't work with Wine.

I dont know why iTunes shouldnt work on Wine after all It is supposed to run the Windows Programs unless iTunes works differently.

pizza-is-good
December 30th, 2009, 08:34 PM
If Ubuntu just booted up with the following:
Quote:
What GUI do you want?
-> KDE
-> Gnome
-> XFCE
-> IceWM
-> Fluxbox




Ubuntu does that.

They all did, but Karmic made that better.
On the log-in screen, at the bottom, it says Session, and then there is a drop down menu that allows you to select the DE you want.

Pogeymanz
December 30th, 2009, 08:34 PM
Just noticed something in my own screengrab. The Ubuntu Software Centre is spelt the correct way. Not the American way.

Canonical is English, right? I know Shuttleworth is from South Africa, so they speak English English and not American English.

Project PWNED
December 30th, 2009, 08:36 PM
Ubuntu does that.

They all did, but Karmic made that better.
On the log-in screen, at the bottom, it says Session, and then there is a drop down menu that allows you to select the DE you want.

Throw a Debian netinstall iso into Virtual Box and time how fast you can be up compared to any iso that Ubuntu offers. (alternate installer is the closest thing to Debian netinstall.. I'm currently running it)

cariboo
December 30th, 2009, 08:36 PM
Upgrade hell, should become a thing of the past with the changes to upgrade-manager. From what I can see it disables all ppa's, which is a good thing, before doing the upgrade. Having a lot of ppa's enabled is one of the main causes of upgrade problems.

pizza-is-good
December 30th, 2009, 08:40 PM
Throw a Debian netinstall iso into Virtual Box and time how fast you can be up compared to any iso that Ubuntu offers.

I have never tried Debian on VirtualBox, but I think that you didn't understand my post, I was referring to Desktop Environments in Ubuntu, not GNU/Linux Distros...

Project PWNED
December 30th, 2009, 08:40 PM
I have never tried Debian on VirtualBox, but I think that you didn't understand my post, I was referring to Desktop Environments in Ubuntu, not GNU/Linux Distros...

I was referring to installers

pizza-is-good
December 30th, 2009, 08:41 PM
I was referring to installers

But you quoted my post on DEs...

Jay Car
December 30th, 2009, 08:58 PM
[/INDENT]3. Fresh upgrade
This little idea I've been working on is a "Fresh upgrade" program.

Instead of upgrading the system files, this program will create a small backup partition, with on it, the user data, their /homes, a list of manually installed applications (Sorry synaptic, this one still doesn't work), and optionally "Upgrade scripts"

Of course a .tar.gz would be supplied as backup should the install fail.

The program will then install the new OS, fresh, add the users and their files, install the applications necessary, or make necessary changes through "Upgrade scripts"

Upgrade scripts would be simple scripts designed by the maintainers of packages, and would "Import" altered settings into the newly installed programs after a fresh upgrade.

Programs like the late dontzap being replaced would make changes in the other apps settings files, others would simply apply the changes to the new version.

Afterwards the backup partition would be merged with the main one, and the install is complete.
All of this will make the "Too hard to install" problem go away, meaning people will be much more ready to use ubuntu or other linux distributions.

Thoughts? Comments?

I think number three is a wonderful idea. I've never found Ubuntu to be difficult to install or to upgrade on my own computers. But I made sure, beforehand, to only buy hardware that I knew was supported.

However, just because I never found it to be difficult doesn't mean I wouldn't appreciate someone making it even easier. To me, that's the beauty of it all. Someone is always finding new ways to make things better.

I also believe that no matter what anyone does to make installations and upgrades easy, the perception that it remains difficult will still be around.

There are some folks who will always (IMO, intentionally) "find" Ubuntu to be difficult, no matter what. They are very noisy with their complaints, often stating their intentions to go back to Windows if they aren't catered to immediately...as if that's some kind of threat.

Changing the ease of installing and upgrades for the better, would be awesome. Changing the *perception* that it's difficult is a whole 'nother challenge.

MichealH
December 30th, 2009, 09:02 PM
I have never tried Debian on VirtualBox

So you've never tried Debian on VBox before eh? So you mustn't of Ran Ubuntu on it as Ubuntu is Debian based hence the .deb installer.

Project PWNED
December 30th, 2009, 09:13 PM
So you've never tried Debian on VBox before eh? So you mustn't of Ran Ubuntu on it as Ubuntu is Debian based hence the .deb installer.

Most people are stuck using VMware and have never heard of Virtual Box.

VastOne
December 30th, 2009, 09:31 PM
[/INDENT]I really like this idea. I have been thinking about something like that for a while.

I love Ubuntu, but it really is a pain to have to do a fresh install to get everything working right after an upgrade, and then having to put in all your programs and settings. If ubuntu would have this, it would make me and a lot of people so happy....:lolflag:

Having a /home on its own part and a txt list of files loaded straight from Synaptic allows me to have a completely new install of any nix within minutes...

If all would learn this two step approach, you could be back to good in no time

markp1989
December 30th, 2009, 09:33 PM
Having a /home on its own part and a txt list of files loaded straight from Synaptic allows me to have a completely new install of any nix within minutes...

If all would learn this two step approach, you could be back to good in no time

i do the same with arch, seperate home + list of installed packages i can just feed to pacman, and i can have a new install + all programs and settings in like 15min tops (depending on the speed of internet that day lol)

starcannon
December 30th, 2009, 09:35 PM
I think #3(from OP's first post in this thread) is one of the reasons people can not make it here from there. I also think after browsing the posts, and reading numerous threads over the years(on this same subject), that it comes down to software compatibility(wine is fine, but not for everything), familiar environment, where to get new programs, most windows end users tend to think of software as something you get at a retail store, or download "from google"; and finally peripheral support, meaning most people do not want to research gadgets to find out if it will work with the OS on their machine, they want to walk into the electronics store, pickup a printer, or mp3 player, or camera, or, or, or... pop in an install disk, plug in the device, and start using it, no researching, no fuss, no muss, just nice easy impulse buying.

Linux as it stands, and as it has always been, and as it seemingly will be for the foreseeable future, requires one to think about things a little before doing them. This is not acceptable to the average end user who does not read alert dialogues, installs malware AV because some site told them they have >9000 viruses on their computer, etc... etc...

A mainstream OS will appeal to the lazy nature of the species, the have it now and worry about it later mentality. Linux does things the other way, worry about it now, and have it later...

GL and HF

J V
December 30th, 2009, 09:45 PM
Having a /home on its own part and a txt list of files loaded straight from Synaptic allows me to have a completely new install of any nix within minutes...

If all would learn this two step approach, you could be back to good in no timeProblem being that the "Manually installed applications" list in synaptic is broken so you can't see what apps you had...

This would certainly make it easier to do fresh installs, but then you probably have to delete all the .files in your /home to stop configuration issues with new versions, mess around with encryption (If you use it), and the bloat just gets bigger without fresh config files...

Add to that it doesn't stop the *complexity* of an install...

Btw, on a side note, did my first seperate /home install with karmic, if I install another one will it try to overwrite my /home data? (And will this be benign by only overwriting config files?)

VastOne
December 30th, 2009, 09:46 PM
I think #3(from OP's first post in this thread) is one of the reasons people can not make it here from there. I also think after browsing the posts, and reading numerous threads over the years(on this same subject), that it comes down to software compatibility(wine is fine, but not for everything), familiar environment, where to get new programs, most windows end users tend to think of software as something you get at a retail store, or download "from google"; and finally peripheral support, meaning most people do not want to research gadgets to find out if it will work with the OS on their machine, they want to walk into the electronics store, pickup a printer, or mp3 player, or camera, or, or, or... pop in an install disk, plug in the device, and start using it, no researching, no fuss, no muss, just nice easy impulse buying.

Linux as it stands, and as it has always been, and as it seemingly will be for the foreseeable future, requires one to think about things a little before doing them. This is not acceptable to the average end user who does not read alert dialogues, installs malware AV because some site told them they have >9000 viruses on their computer, etc... etc...

A mainstream OS will appeal to the lazy nature of the species, the have it now and worry about it later mentality. Linux does things the other way, worry about it now, and have it later...

GL and HF

I have to disagree with the standard argument "most Windows users" because I have three teenagers at home with every phone, ipod, social site, music needs, school needs yada yada yada...When I said NO MORE MS in this house, they adapted and are brilliant on their own with Ubuntu...If they can do anybody can with the right applied effort and motivation

VastOne
December 30th, 2009, 09:48 PM
Problem being that the "Manually installed applications" list in synaptic is broken so you can't see what apps you had...

This would certainly make it easier to do fresh installs, but then you probably have to delete all the .files in your /home to stop configuration issues with new versions, mess around with encryption (If you use it), and the bloat just gets bigger without fresh config files...

Add to that it doesn't stop the *complexity* of an install...

Btw, on a side note, did my first seperate /home install with karmic, if I install another one will it try to overwrite my /home data? (And will this be benign by only overwriting config files?)


I do not know where you got your info from but I have been doing this for 2 years on every release and massive kernel tests and have never run into what you are saying.

And why is it that everyone needs a held hand on an install? This forum is full of advice and nuggets of info on what to do during an install, why not take advantage of it before you go full steam ahead..

No to your overwrite question...

zaksworld
December 30th, 2009, 09:55 PM
I think people are to lazy to learn something new.

I tried installing firefox on my friend's laptop, but he's only ever used Explorer. After I put it on he got a virus, and claimed it was because of firefox.

People are used to windows because it's all that's ever been on their computers. Mac is starting to come around, but that's because people have had iPods all their life, and the Mac will just make it that much easier to use.

Ubuntu has only been on people's computers when they manually installed it, and Ubuntu is just another operating system without any other reason (such as an iPod) to use it.

Ubuntu would become more popular if they started selling Desktop Ubuntu computers in high-tech stores, such as Best-Buy, because people think if you have to pay money for it, then it must be better. Canonical could do this, but still release Ubuntu for free on the Ubuntu site, and only be selling the Desktop with Ubuntu installed at stores. This probably will never happen though. :(

zaksworld
December 30th, 2009, 09:58 PM
I have three teenagers at home with every phone, ipod, social site, music needs, school needs yada yada yada...When I said NO MORE MS in this house, they adapted and are brilliant on their own with Ubuntu...If they can do anybody can with the right applied effort and motivation

Yes but most adults who are trying to install Ubuntu don't have their parents hanging over their shoulders saying "You can do it honey, you can learn Ubuntu!"

The teens do, but in a lot of cases, most people don't.

Frak
December 30th, 2009, 10:00 PM
I dont know why iTunes shouldnt work on Wine after all It is supposed to run the Windows Programs unless iTunes works differently.
Wine is not a magic bullet. It's very buggy and can only run many applications to a certain degree. Also, Wine cannot make direct connections to the hardware.

VastOne
December 30th, 2009, 10:02 PM
Yes but most adults who are trying to install Ubuntu don't have their parents hanging over their shoulders saying "You can do it honey, you can learn Ubuntu!"

The teens do, but in a lot of cases, most people don't.

Well, I may be out of the norm, but I trusted their capabilities and waited for them to ask me...Never happened.

They now teach it in their own schools so it is spreading upwards at least in this area...

I hear what you are saying though

VastOne
December 30th, 2009, 10:03 PM
Wine is not a magic bullet. It's very buggy and can only run many applications to a certain degree. Also, Wine cannot make direct connections to the hardware.

Amen to that...

As easy as Virtual Box is now and as good as it runs on new hardware, if you have the license and must run MS, that is the route to go

starcannon
December 30th, 2009, 10:32 PM
I have to disagree with the standard argument "most Windows users" because I have three teenagers at home with every phone, ipod, social site, music needs, school needs yada yada yada...When I said NO MORE MS in this house, they adapted and are brilliant on their own with Ubuntu...If they can do anybody can with the right applied effort and motivation
But theres the rub, most Windows users do not have someone making them adapt to something else; so for them, the path of least resistance is, business as usual.

We only use Linux here as well. I have a 12 year old daughter and a 14 year old daughter, they get their MS Windows exposure at school, and GNU/Linux at home. We only buy hardware that "just works", and they have all the normal teen toys as well.

aviedw
December 30th, 2009, 10:46 PM
It all about what your exposed to. I was a major windows fan with windows xp but i never used vista and so when windows 7 came out i felt like a fish out of water when trying to configure it. As i sat there looking at the background, i wished windows was like linux in the sense that it would automatically find my printer, sound card and RAID.

We make the comparison of whats hard and whats easy because the platforms are different. And when we get so set in our ways about how something should work, it then seems hard to reteach rather than teach someone something for the first time. And the older you are the harder you will find it to learn something new. And even more so appreciate its different approach at solving the same task.

So my theory is that we are all creatures of habit and its our own limitations that makes our new experiences easy or difficult.

Chame_Wizard
December 30th, 2009, 10:47 PM
Illiteracy can be quit annoying .:popcorn:

Ylon
December 30th, 2009, 10:50 PM
Theory on why some people find ubuntu/linux too difficult


Mine: because windows is... normal. If you made something wrong with Windows is your fault, if you made something wrong with Linux.. is Linux community fault.

SchizmWolf
December 30th, 2009, 10:50 PM
I see the installation of Ubuntu/Linux as a sort of OS Litmus test; most people grew up or are used to Window and Mac, which tend to come pre-installed on the computers people buy. From there there are several divisions of people.
1)Those who scrap the computer and get a new one so that they can have a new OS (my grandpa, for one.)
2) Those who buy the new OS upgrade, e.g. Vista to 7 (My father.)
3) Those who know enough/are motivated enough to know they can put something on their machine without having to pay for it, in exchange for ease of use. (Us!)

If you are willing to put in the effort it takes to figure out how to manually install a completely different operating system, then the rest is cake; just approach all your debugging problems with that attitude. It's a challenge, not a problem.
If you're like my grandpa, who doesn't know how to install something that comes in a box without instructions, then yes, it's probably too difficult for you. God so help you should you ever need to use the terminal line.
As I've heard a bagillion times since coming to this forum, "Linux assumes you know exactly what you are doing." Windows and Mac don't really do that. So if you have a bit of working knowledge about how systems work, go for it. If it's all greek to you... well, stick with M$ and i-something. They were made with you in mind.:P

VastOne
December 30th, 2009, 10:51 PM
So my theory is that we are all creatures of habit and its our own limitations that makes our new experiences easy or difficult.

As someone has already pointed out, what is so difficult in learning something new? Complacency? Lack of desire? Spoiled to the 'ease of use' of MS? It should really only take one malware or virus attack to want you to seek something new, that destruction should be motivation enough IMHO.

J V
December 30th, 2009, 11:11 PM
I do not know where you got your info from but I have been doing this for 2 years on every release and massive kernel tests and have never run into what you are saying.

And why is it that everyone needs a held hand on an install? This forum is full of advice and nuggets of info on what to do during an install, why not take advantage of it before you go full steam ahead..

No to your overwrite question...I mean that if you go to synaptic and select status > Installed manually it gives you EVERY package installed including the base packages installed with a blank ubuntu install

No-one needs a hand held install, the point is that they *think* they need it.

This means they need someone to install it for them regularly *or* an easier way to upgrade.

As for everything else, this isn't a general "reasons people leave linux" thread, this is just talking about a few ideas to make it less frightening to upgrade.

Almost everyone who actually tries linux and says its too complicated didn't get past the install... We can install it for them, but not once every 6 months, windows doesn't even need a reinstall every 6 months.

They need a one-button fix or someone to help them, only for ease of mind

Swagman
December 30th, 2009, 11:57 PM
The thing is... Windows Isn't easy.

Just wait until they lose the recovery disk that came with it or they bought the machine cheap off a mate who didn't give them the recovery disk.

Sure they will "Acquire" an XP disk. So what about the Mobo/graphic drivers ?

I have a few friends at work who asked me to install that "Linux thing" then said "it's ok, I acquired an XP disk" before I get to do it. After a while they complain it's not doing stuff right.

THEN they realise what a pigs ear windows actually is.

Skripka
December 31st, 2009, 12:05 AM
How is this thread not in testimonials or recurring yet?

J V
December 31st, 2009, 12:51 AM
Because I'm not testifying to anything and I'm pretty sure article #3 is a new idea?

I want to discuss this, and/or make suggestions...

Paqman
December 31st, 2009, 09:03 AM
@Paqman: While its true that LTS could well be the "real version", how will the average user know that when they see "Upgrade to ubuntu karmic" in their update manager and "New version release!" on the website?

True. What's the default setup though? If you install the LTS will it prompt to upgrade to non-LTS releases?

Jestersage
December 31st, 2009, 09:25 AM
As for me (who refurbish old computers with Ubuntu), I find most people's complain on Ubuntu is not so much as "how do I do X in Ubuntu". Rather, it's "How can I disable all those password asking."

If your response is "That's how security in ubuntu works", they will say something like "Why don't you guys actually try Anti-virus or something" And etc.

We have three ways to remedy this:
a) Use L!=W article as excuse, pat ourself on our back, and move on
b) Find some kind of legitimate compromise so that people who really hate password can still be comfy with Ubuntu
c) Screw it, leyt them have their open system and gazillion problems that come. That's one of the Reason I started my research for my SAUL project, since if they would rather have an open system with lots of security problem then to remember a password for login and admin, then so be it.

Khakilang
December 31st, 2009, 09:28 AM
Unfamiliar area, lazy to learn another OS again, as long as Window work why bother, simple task that don't require much effort and the old saying goes "If it ain't broke why fix it or change it". Fear of command line. Until their valuable data get bomb by virus than only they will think twice.

dyslexia
December 31st, 2009, 11:00 AM
Real simple:

Doesn't cost enough.

In '99 using Red Hat's hideous installer I thought: "they are taking the we can get away with this **** because it's free as far as they can, aren't they..."

even still, the installed product had some awesome software gems, %90 potential customer base would never get that far...

dyslexia
December 31st, 2009, 11:09 AM
...for Universities and Public institutions to buy Microsoft licenses is a crime...

they already *paid* for linux

Shea7993
December 31st, 2009, 12:42 PM
okay I think the major problem why people choose M$ over ubuntu is FEAR and FAD... and lack of marketing

Yes, ubuntu isnt exactly all that easy, i mean to us who knows how to use it, its easy, but like I installed it on my dads laptop... Now he doesnt know much about anything, just to use it for internet browsing, uploading photos and office suite, not that he complains about ubuntu, but how freaquently he asks me to help him with simple lil things, and most things may involve the terminal. I know ther are GUI's for most of these actions, but unfortuanately it doesnt come standard with ubuntu... like the envy tool for example to install ATI or NVIDIA graphic drivers, it makes me wonder if ubuntu realy is that easy...
Having to learn something new isnt something most people want to do, so they are afraid.

And then theres marketing, or lack of marketing for ubuntu... People buy what is advertised and sold to them. With good Marketing skills, its easy to hand someone a pile of ***** and convince them to buy it, its like those 6min abs infomercials seriously =\ Linux needs abit of marketing, unfortuanately its not very possible i would think since its free, and doesnt realy belong to anyone, and doesnt generate any income to spend on advertising and marketing. So its up to us the users and community.

I honestly dont see ubuntu as a very dificult distro to use, but I do believe it can use alittle more work to get attention. It was nice to see they had the slideshow during installation for karmic as a little intro, but think a proper introduction tutorial or tour on first startup should be made for new users, how to do the few basic things, maybe guide a simple setup for personalisation and a new effing theme, (God I hate the theme) it looks so boring the standard theme... and seriously, maybe just for the newcomers, create a theme that really resembles windows, even if its just adding gnomenu, its how i got most people comfortable with linux, the Gnomenu itself makes a huge impact suprisingly, even though it doesnt look like windows, it has that feel to it which newcomers feel comfortable with...

and as for the installation... anyone who says its dificult, is effing retarded beyond, just read and you will know what you are doing, the installation could maybe use baby words and descriptions for easy understanding (for the non-computer literate) it really isnt that hard to read is it? maybe if you wanted to manually install partitions it could get abit tricky for them, but its not necesary to do it manually, an "automated" default option is available =] fresh install from selected HDD or install next to windows, or use largest continuing diskspace.

PS. Do the maintainers even read these posts? or is there somewhere we can give feedback on improving ubuntu? id like them to hear opinions too, or atleast they should have their own section here on ubuntuforums

Swagman
December 31st, 2009, 12:52 PM
Joe Public Doesn't buy Windows. It came on their machine when they bought it.

When it gets bit rot and they finally get sick of using the recovery disk they'll think it's time to get a new computer anyway (it usually is) and... Low and behold.... It comes with the "New version" of Windows.

So.... They don't know any different.

Microsoft likes it that way !!

Exodist
December 31st, 2009, 01:05 PM
Theory on why some people find ubuntu/linux too difficult
Same folks that find everything difficult..

J V
December 31st, 2009, 01:42 PM
Edditing OP seeing as you just don't get it :P

kilosan
December 31st, 2009, 03:54 PM
3. Its ready for the desktop if someone installs it for them

if that kind of linux/windows desktop survives, the desktop computer as we know it is changing, its becoming like linux+browser and the rest is in the internet. this kind of desktop along with netbooks and mobile devices will replace and outnumber in billions the desktop linux/windows as we know it. if you think that will not happen, then think again, you yourself is starting to extinct like the dinosaur. the younger generation will take over and you yourself will realize like how you where like your father or grandfather was. clinging on the typewriter and such.

its inevitable, the only barrier here is technology, as internet technology becomes faster and cheaper, like example the wimax.

windows can be comparable to fossil fuel dependency. the only thing why hydrogen and solar energy is not yet mainstream is the same. but it will happen none the less.

internet in the future could be like how we use electricity is now. you cant live without it nor power your computer.

mutex023
December 31st, 2009, 04:28 PM
I can think of a number of things that could be done that would stop this problem:

1. Longer release dates
A recurring theme, all ubuntu releases seem to be incredibly bugged down and rushed nowadays, a 1 year release cycle would make things work smoother, and also leave a longer time for new users to use their new OS before needing to upgrade
2. Upgrade timeout
The option to upgrade should be disabled by default until a month or so after release, this way most bugs will be worked out.

Naturally it will still be available by going to prefs and enabling it, but hopefully this timeout will also help fix the upgrade issues (Which, lets face it, will always be around)
3. Fresh upgrade[INDENT]This little idea I've been working on is a "Fresh upgrade" program....


Totally agree with all 3 ideas. So how do we persuade the ubuntu team to put this into effect ?

MichealH
December 31st, 2009, 04:44 PM
When I said NO MORE MS in this house, they adapted and are brilliant on their own with Ubuntu...If they can do anybody can with the right applied effort and motivation

When I wanted to be technician (Still taking up the dream) and I got told to learn not just M$ but Linux and Macs as well and I jumped and whimpered for everyone knows what people think of Linux and 1.5 years on I regret doing that (*hangs head in shame*) but what's amazing is I learned Linux at 10 year old so Linux must be simple musn't it?

VastOne
December 31st, 2009, 04:53 PM
When I wanted to be technician (Still taking up the dream) and I got told to learn not just M$ but Linux and Macs as well and I jumped and whimpered for everyone knows what people think of Linux and 1.5 years on I regret doing that (*hangs head in shame*) but what's amazing is I learned Linux at 10 year old so Linux must be simple musn't it?

The best advice I ever got and then gave was to learn a lot about one specific thing (specialize in it, for me it was e-mail systems and Active Directory) and then a little about everything else...

It is the right motivation and desire that is conducive to learning...

Good luck on your journey

juancarlospaco
December 31st, 2009, 05:36 PM
2 kind of people:

-people that keep searching windows inside linux
-people that understand that are on a different system