What was the point of BeOS?

[dragos240]

Why was it used? What were the advantages of using it at the time (does it still have advantages over other OSs today?) It seems to have advantages today since haiku is being developed.

[mickie.kext]

Why was it used? What were the advantages of using it at the time (does it still have advantages over other OSs today?) It seems to have advantages today since haiku is being developed.

BeOS was alternate OS for PowerPC computers, like Apple Macs and Mac clones. When Jobs killed of Mac cloning program, BeOS was doomed in long term, as well as high-volume RISC desktop.

[HappinessNow]

Why was it used? What were the advantages of using it at the time (does it still have advantages over other OSs today?) It seems to have advantages today since haiku is being developed.
BeOS was positioned as a multimedia platform which could be used by a substantial population of desktop users and a competitor to Mac OS and Microsoft Windows. However, it was ultimately unable to achieve a significant market share and proved commercially unviable for Be Inc. The company was acquired by Palm Inc. and today BeOS is mainly used and developed by a small population of enthusiasts.
The open-source OS Haiku is designed to start up where BeOS left off. Alpha 1 of Haiku was released in September 2009.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS

[doas777]

somthing to put on all the left over neXcubes?

[mickie.kext]

This is good

According to several sources including Macworld UK, the company name "Be" had its origin in a conversation between Gassée and Be co-founder Steve Sakoman. Gassée originally thought the company should be called "United Technoids Inc.", but Sakoman disagreed and said he would start looking through the dictionary for a better name. A few days later, when Gassée asked if he had made any progress, Sakoman replied that he had gotten tired and stopped at "B." Gassée said, "Be is nice. End of story."

Best name for a company... ever:lolflag:

[blueshiftoverwatch]

BeOS was alternate OS for PowerPC computers, like Apple Macs and Mac clones. When Jobs killed of Mac cloning program, BeOS was doomed in long term, as well as high-volume RISC desktop.
Another example of how corporate capitalism hurts the consumer in the end. Instead of people being allowed to do whatever they want with their property, like make clones of various pieces of hardware or software. Intellectual property laws are used (often by large companies) to stomp out competition (often smaller companies).

"We will not allow running Mac OS X on anything other than an Apple Mac" - Philip Schiller (VP of Apple Inc)

Lets even assume that the currently existing software piracy laws are completely valid and necessary. Who is Philip Schiller to tell me that I can't start up my own company selling prebuilt computers with legally bought copies of OSX preinstalled and than write my own drivers to make the OS work on my non-Apple hardware?

[n6yga]

It cracks me up every time someone mentions the Microsoft Monopoly. Apple Computer is the BIGGEST monopoly in the world.

The fact of the matter is you are right. Apple has no right to tell us what to do with software we legally bought from them. I like Apples. They are very nice computers. However, why would anyone spend $2500 on a computer you can buy from Dell for $900???

Stupid is as stupid does...

Mark. (my $.02)

[Frak]

Another example of how corporate capitalism hurts the consumer in the end. Instead of people being allowed to do whatever they want with their property, like make clones of various pieces of hardware or software. Intellectual property laws are used (often by large companies) to stomp out competition (often smaller companies).

Apple owned the plans to the Mac platform. The hardware inside of it was, indeed, Apple original for a long time. All Apple had to do was release OS 8 (one version higher than 7), and the clone contracts expired.

Anyways, as for BeOS, it was an OS that, to this day, can only be matched by the Haiku developers. BeOS was the epitome of how an OS was supposed to be designed. Windows, Mac OS X, nor Linux come close to what BeOS was. Haiku is the only OS, right now, that comes close to the sheer performance and ability that BeOS had.

[blueshiftoverwatch]

Apple owned the plans to the Mac platform. The hardware inside of it was, indeed, Apple original for a long time. All Apple had to do was release OS 8 (one version higher than 7), and the clone contracts expired.
I'm saying that Be Inc (or any other company) shouldn't have had to get Apple's permission to make Mac clones or a Mac compatible OS at all in the first place.

[Frak]

I'm saying that Be Inc (or any other company) shouldn't have had to get Apple's permission to make Mac clones or a Mac compatible OS at all in the first place.
Well, they wanted to use the Hobbit at first, but AT&T decided it was pointless. Move to PowerPC, Apple says no. Move to x86, Microsoft says no.

A great product moved into the shadows so giant corporations could have their way.

[mickie.kext]

Apple shot itself in the leg with that move. They in fact reduced volume of PowerPC, which led Motorola to exit that market and ultimately led Apple to intel. If they had more commitment to PowerPC Reference Platform, we would today have at least two competing PC architectures.

Sun also had bad strategy for SPARC, as well DEC/Compaq with Alpha and SGI with MIPS. Their greed left world to be dominated by second grade technology and only Sun realized its mistake and did something to fix matters (I mean open sourcing T1 and T2). To late, it seems.

Con Kolivas (http://apcmag.com/why_i_quit_kernel_developer_con_kolivas.htm) said it best.

[alphaniner]

Lets even assume that the currently existing software piracy laws are completely valid and necessary. Who is Philip Schiller to tell me that I can't start up my own company selling prebuilt computers with legally bought copies of OSX preinstalled and than write my own drivers to make the OS work on my non-Apple hardware?

That bit is not even about IP, but licencing agreements. When you open/install the software, you are agreeing not to do that.

[phrostbyte]

It's a consumer/multimedia OS that died out awhile ago. It had a cult following even then, and when it was GG for BeOS, a group of enthusiasts decided to try to recreate it (and maybe make it better), and "Haiku" was born. But making an OS from scratch is insanely hard, and Haiku has been in development for years, but is still pre-alpha.

[Pogeymanz]

It's a consumer/multimedia OS that died out awhile ago. It had a cult following even then, and when it was GG for BeOS, a group of enthusiasts decided to try to recreate it (and maybe make it better), and "Haiku" was born. But making an OS from scratch is insanely hard, and Haiku has been in development for years, but is still pre-alpha.

Correction: The alpha was released in September.

[DeadSuperHero]

For an alpha, Haiku is unusually stable. I'll most likely switch over once Haiku has wireless/NDISwrapper support.

[free10]

For an alpha, Haiku is unusually stable. I'll most likely switch over once Haiku has wireless/NDISwrapper support.


Wireless seems to be coming right along.

http://www.haikuware.com/blog/wlan-stack-sum-up-on-going-and-future-work-html

And so does Qt4 which got another boost lately.

http://www.osnews.com/story/22678/Qt4_Port_for_Haiku_Matures

I think we might see the next Haiku alpha version out in the next 4-6 weeks ahead.

[the yawner]

I had tried Haiku on a virtual machine and I'm impressed with the boot time. Still not that usable though.

[starcannon]

somthing to put on all the left over neXcubes?
hehehe
okay you made me lol a bit even.
chuckle.

[free10]

Why was it used? What were the advantages of using it at the time (does it still have advantages over other OSs today?) It seems to have advantages today since haiku is being developed.

The focus for it is the Desktop system. It was written with fresh code and the best coding ideas around in the 90s. It was the fastest by far but easy to use and very stable. It is not a single thread OS by design and all apps required two threads and the recommended number was 8. Much of it was also 64 bit way back then except for the core which of course could only be 32 bit to run on 32 bit hardware.

The cool features about it were endless as it out performed everything then and it had millions of users worldwide and they never really went anywhere even though they had to switch to other systems as newer hardware and technologies came about over time. I had to leave it about the time Ubuntu 6 came out so I could use my Nikon D70 and watch flash videos. In 2008 I build a new computer which BeOS could not even boot up on but I knew Haiku was getting close to release.

My point is the BeOS "cult" lives by the millions in many countries working and waiting for Haiku. This time the limits on drivers and other changes needed, as things change, will be there for it and so will a lot of apps and new apps too.

Fast, easy, painless spells fun, or love:lolflag:

[hansdown]

Well, they wanted to use the Hobbit at first, but AT&T decided it was pointless. Move to PowerPC, Apple says no. Move to x86, Microsoft says no.

A great product moved into the shadows so giant corporations could have their way.

Thanks for that Frak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT&T_Hobbit

Good info.

[etnlIcarus]

Another example of how corporate capitalism hurts the consumer in the end. Instead of people being allowed to do whatever they want with their property, like make clones of various pieces of hardware or software. Intellectual property laws are used (often by large companies) to stomp out competition (often smaller companies).

"We will not allow running Mac OS X on anything other than an Apple Mac" - Philip Schiller (VP of Apple Inc)

Lets even assume that the currently existing software piracy laws are completely valid and necessary. Who is Philip Schiller to tell me that I can't start up my own company selling prebuilt computers with legally bought copies of OSX preinstalled and than write my own drivers to make the OS work on my non-Apple hardware?This is one extremely confusing rant. 'People cloning pieces of hardware'? We've been well past the point of Joe 4-eyes being able to practically reverse-engineer most computer hardware since the mid-80's. Then you jump between Apple controlling their hardware and Apple controlling their software, while also apparently conflating IP law with licensing.


Apple owned the plans to the Mac platform. The hardware inside of it was, indeed, Apple original for a long time. All Apple had to do was release OS 8 (one version higher than 7), and the clone contracts expired.

Anyways, as for BeOS, it was an OS that, to this day, can only be matched by the Haiku developers. BeOS was the epitome of how an OS was supposed to be designed. Windows, Mac OS X, nor Linux come close to what BeOS was. Haiku is the only OS, right now, that comes close to the sheer performance and ability that BeOS had.


I'm saying that Be Inc (or any other company) shouldn't have had to get Apple's permission to make Mac clones or a Mac compatible OS at all in the first place.


Well, they wanted to use the Hobbit at first, but AT&T decided it was pointless. Move to PowerPC, Apple says no. Move to x86, Microsoft says no.

A great product moved into the shadows so giant corporations could have their way.

Apple no more owned the PowerPC platform than MS did the x86. There's also no good reason why the death of the official clone programme necessarily meant the death of the clone-makers, or BeOS.

All the clone makers had to do was switch to the CHRP - the open PowerPC spec, strike a deal with Be Inc. and everyone would have been back in business. The only exception was Power Computing, who were bought by Apple after they ended the cloning programme and obviously weren't going to contribute to the efforts of a competing OS. Whether or not this would have been successful is another story entirely (although the money saved from not licensing Apple ROMS or the OS should have been enough to compensate for the lost mind share) but pinning the blame on Apple is inept. MS ultimately did play a role in Be Inc's demise but that was only after opportunities like the above were squandered.

[Frak]

Apple no more owned the PowerPC platform than MS did the x86.

Good for you. Next tell us about how the sky is blue and the moon comes out sometimes at night.


There's also no good reason why the death of the official clone programme necessarily meant the death of the clone-makers, or BeOS.

Making Mac clones wasn't necessarily forbidden, but people wouldn't buy a PowerPC without Mac OS installed on it. With the sole computer coming down to the budget-wise Power Macintosh (such as the Performa) and the very high priced BeBox, people were more likely to choose the Macintosh line. Even then, the Macintosh line wasn't doing so hot, and the BeBox was expensive to produce. The logical choice was to move to the x86 line, which was a much cheaper alternative to produce in large quantities. Be knew it couldn't compete with the already umpteen OEMs, and decided to contract out already existing OEMs to bundle the OS. Microsoft wouldn't allow that, putting another nail in the BeInc coffin. The final blow came when Apple ultimately decided to choose NeXTOS over BeOS for the core of the upcoming AppleOS.

So, indeed, Apple cannot be directly blamed, but the conditions of Apple at the time caused a lot of harm to come to BeInc.

[etnlIcarus]

Good for you. Next tell us about how the sky is blue and the moon comes out sometimes at night.If I were aiming for the bloody obvious, I'd be more inclined point out your aptitude for grotesque over-simplification.


Making Mac clones wasn't necessarily forbidden, but people wouldn't buy a PowerPC without Mac OS installed on it. With the sole computer coming down to the budget-wise Power Macintosh (such as the Performa) and the very high priced BeBox, people were more likely to choose the Macintosh line. Even then, the Macintosh line wasn't doing so hot, and the BeBox was expensive to produce. The logical choice was to move to the x86 line, which was a much cheaper alternative to produce in large quantities. Be knew it couldn't compete with the already umpteen OEMs, and decided to contract out already existing OEMs to bundle the OS. Microsoft wouldn't allow that, putting another nail in the BeInc coffin. The final blow came when Apple ultimately decided to choose NeXTOS over BeOS for the core of the upcoming AppleOS.

So, indeed, Apple cannot be directly blamed, but the conditions of Apple at the time caused a lot of harm to come to BeInc.Or obfuscated non-sequitur, for that matter.

people wouldn't buy a PowerPC without Mac OS installed on itOf course my entire point was that people might have, had anyone made a serious go of it. They didn't. Be decided they wanted to 'be like Apple' with a closed platform that was already dead and buried by the time Jobs killed the clone programme (thus rebutting your proceeding point).


The final blow came when Apple ultimately decided to choose NeXTOS over BeOS for the core of the upcoming AppleOS. ... Apple cannot be directly blamed, but the conditions of Apple at the time caused a lot of harm to come to BeInc.That would be NeXTSTEP and I'm not sure how anyone could say with a straight face 'it's your fault I failed because you didn't bail me out'. Not a great business strategy, let alone a good argument for responsibility. Be was doomed long before MS' lorded over their OEMs or Apple stood them up, simply because of their dicky business strategies. Just because Apple have managed to limp along, all these years, with an insular, totalitarian business model; it doesn't mean anyone else can or should do the same. Ironically enough, it was Apple loosening it's belt during Be's key years, by allowing cloners to license Apple ROMs and software, that helped to keep Apple afloat. Be Inc. tried to be Apple at a time when even Apple wasn't game to be Apple. Now that's thinking with both brain cells.

In a way we're lucky Be never made it big: the fans BeOS does have are so eager to absolve Be Inc of any responsibility for their failure. We think Apple and *nix fanboys are over-zealous - imagine in another timeline, if I were posting this from my BePhone!

[isecore]

BeOS was a great operating system, a fresh start in the early/mid 90's. I loved it, used it for long and still dream of owning an actual BeBox since it was such a cool computer.

The problem for Be though was Jean-Louis Gassée. He took himself way too seriously, and he took his company too seriously. When Apple ca 1996 was shopping around for something new to base their next-gen OS on they first went to JLG and Be and asked them how much they wanted for the whole kit and kaboodle. JLG demanded some outrageous sum of money (I think on the order of 300 million dollars or something) while Apple was willing to fork over maybe a third of that. JLG refused, told them to get stuffed.

Thus, Apple went to NeXT and bought that company instead, since Jobs demand was much more reasonable in their eyes. This was after all at a time when Apple had very little money and was nearing bankruptcy.

What was left of Be after this got gobbled up by Palm, who really was just interested in the media-structure and not the OS itself, and basically put everything that wasn't of interest in the meatgrinder. Haiku took over the reigns of developing a BeOS clone and that's where we are today.

[MasterNetra]

It cracks me up every time someone mentions the Microsoft Monopoly. Apple Computer is the BIGGEST monopoly in the world.

The fact of the matter is you are right. Apple has no right to tell us what to do with software we legally bought from them. I like Apples. They are very nice computers. However, why would anyone spend $2500 on a computer you can buy from Dell for $900???

Stupid is as stupid does...

Mark. (my $.02)

Why should anyone have to spend $900 at dell when you can get it for less from Newegg. :p

my $0.10 :p

[yester64]

Why was it used? What were the advantages of using it at the time (does it still have advantages over other OSs today?) It seems to have advantages today since haiku is being developed.

BeOS was supposed to be the next Mac OS after failing 7. But that was before Jobs came back in which these plans were tossed and instead NeXT OS was chosen.
It was better than Windows, but like so many better OS never made it against Windows with its standard attitude.

[chris200x9]

BeOS was a great operating system, a fresh start in the early/mid 90's. I loved it, used it for long and still dream of owning an actual BeBox since it was such a cool computer.

The problem for Be though was Jean-Louis Gassée. He took himself way too seriously, and he took his company too seriously. When Apple ca 1996 was shopping around for something new to base their next-gen OS on they first went to JLG and Be and asked them how much they wanted for the whole kit and kaboodle. JLG demanded some outrageous sum of money (I think on the order of 300 million dollars or something) while Apple was willing to fork over maybe a third of that. JLG refused, told them to get stuffed.

Thus, Apple went to NeXT and bought that company instead, since Jobs demand was much more reasonable in their eyes.

yes $400 million for be vs $427 million for next, of course next was the better choice. :confused:

[Frak]

snip

Nothing like taking my main point, calling it "overcomplicated" and then taking a few scraps and saying "wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong".

Make arguments easily winnable, amirite? Also, the core of NeXTSTEP was called NeXT OS.

[RabbitWho]

However, why would anyone spend $2500 on a computer you can buy from Dell for $900???
)

This really puzzels me too, and Mac fans either don't realise that what's inside their Mac 1000 euro mac older and slower than my 500 euro Dell because they haven't read enough about it OR they actually know what they're talking about but are so sick of defending themselves they won't explain it to me.

The only reason I can see for buying a Mac is if you're Paris Hilton or your a professional graphic designer etc. who absolutely needs some mac-specific program for your job.
Otherwise:
Linux > Windows > Mac

Feel free to insert other things I haven't used in there, but you can't rearrange those three things.
Even if they were all free that would still be my order of preference, though I wouldn't mind having a Mac to play with as well, if it was free.


Sorry for going off topic. Great thread, computer history is so frickin interesting.

I love the word "frik", you Americans and your "frik".

[skewty]

Anyways, as for BeOS, it was an OS that, to this day, can only be matched by the Haiku developers. BeOS was the epitome of how an OS was supposed to be designed. Windows, Mac OS X, nor Linux come close to what BeOS was. Haiku is the only OS, right now, that comes close to the sheer performance and ability that BeOS had.

I did beta testing for Be Inc of BeOS. I also did a bit of software development for BeOS (not for Be Inc).

I can confirm the statements made above.

When Haiku comes out, the linux desktop community, IMHO, should focus most of their future efforts on it. Lets get a few of the best linux programs ported over and try and ressurect products like Gobe Productive.

BeOS with compiz like 3D effects, an updated Gobe Productive, an MS Exchange compatible PIM using BeOS's People would easily trump Linux, Mac and Windows in ease of use, speed, reliability and scalability.

The message queue system (almost everything in BeOS was to go through the message queue) was already multi-processor (core) optimized. We aren't even at this level today with linux.

[etnlIcarus]

Nothing like taking my main point, calling it "overcomplicated" and then taking a few scraps and saying "wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong".I've obviously been giving you far too much credit.


Also, the core of NeXTSTEP was called NeXT OS.First I'm hearing of it and I doubt that I'm the only one.


BeOS with compiz like 3D effects, an updated Gobe Productive, an MS Exchange compatible PIM using BeOS's People would easily trump Linux, Mac and Windows in ease of use, speed, reliability and scalability.
I dare say it'll take more than a lick of paint and a fuller set of productivity tools. From playing around with Haiku, it seems like it's developers are more interested in cloning BeOS exactly, than providing a modern UI. The distant antecedent of 'desktop widgets', a largely novelty mail client (although that's becoming less important) and complex, multi-level menus aren't going to fly in 2010, or whenever it is we're predicting Haiku to take off.

[free10]

I've obviously been giving you far too much credit.

First I'm hearing of it and I doubt that I'm the only one.


I dare say it'll take more than a lick of paint and a fuller set of productivity tools. From playing around with Haiku, it seems like it's developers are more interested in cloning BeOS exactly, than providing a modern UI. The distant antecedent of 'desktop widgets', a largely novelty mail client (although that's becoming less important) and complex, multi-level menus aren't going to fly in 2010, or whenever it is we're predicting Haiku to take off.

It is flying already fairly well and much better than they expected or I think most people would for a lowly alpha 1 release.

There is a shift in technology people want and are using, that makes Haiku a real natural for today and tomorrows world even though BeOS and Haiku are designed for the Desktop. It is a shift that is really cutting into Microsoft already and I predict other operating system margins before it is over, and that is the shift to small portable systems with limited hardware and power. This limits what other software can do on such small cheap devices such as playing video, but it won't limit Haiku with its small fast efficient coding and that includes its UI that were designed to run on much less hardware and not to be wasteful with the available ram and CPU cycles. I doubt hardly anyone will care about the UI once they see its performance and those who actually use it learn to love the UI for all it gives them and anyone who thinks they can do better are free to try. It is open source.

[etnlIcarus]

Perhaps I wasn't clear: I'm not saying it needs more glitz ala compiz or it needs a greater level of technological sophistication; I'm saying the UI is rather archaic in places. That is, UI standards have improved (somewhat) and muddled metaphors like the mail client and awkward, downright difficult to use interfaces, like grappling with menus with many sub-levels, isn't going to endear it to a new audience. Nor will it's 'desktop applets/widgets/whatever a particular implementation happens to call them', which carry the same limitations as any modern implementation but aren't pinnable, group-able and are still managed like regular windows. That may appeal to the Windows 2.0 fanbase but they're a decidedly niche bunch, at this point.

As for it being OSS, if what I've read on the haiku mailing lists and forums in the past, are any indication, I suspect someone's going to have to fork before they'll get many of their [UI] enhancements through. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it's not without a price tag.

[free10]

Perhaps I wasn't clear: I'm not saying it needs more glitz ala compiz or it needs a greater level of technological sophistication; I'm saying the UI is rather archaic in places. That is, UI standards have improved (somewhat) and muddled metaphors like the mail client and awkward, downright difficult to use interfaces, like grappling with menus with many sub-levels, isn't going to endear it to a new audience. Nor will it's 'desktop applets/widgets/whatever a particular implementation happens to call them', which carry the same limitations as any modern implementation but aren't pinnable, group-able and are still managed like regular windows. That may appeal to the Windows 2.0 fanbase but they're a decidedly niche bunch, at this point.

As for it being OSS, if what I've read on the haiku mailing lists and forums in the past, are any indication, I suspect someone's going to have to fork before they'll get many of their [UI] enhancements through. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it's not without a price tag.

Well the mail client isn't up to par for me either but remember this is more a developers release than a standard with all the bells and whistles release for the general public and the first one at that. When I used BeOS after buying R5 Pro I downloaded and used one of the BeOS optional mail clients but don't remember which one but once Thunderbird came out I tried it and liked that one with it. I also like it more with Ubuntu and is what I will use with Haiku.

With the first version of Haiku which people are seeing it is dedicated to BeOS and is one reason the look is so similar but after this first version it will be free to break from this in any way they feel is needed, but I would not bet it is as hard coded as you might think and may be fairly easy to change. I know years and years ago I saw desktops running BeOS I would never have guessed were BeOS by their look. The drop down menus work for me going down into the system but if I have a place I want to go a lot of times I just used search or find which is extremely fast. I do that in Ubuntu too but don't find it quite as easy and fast to use. There are pluses and minuses to most things.