Shame on My School

[ssj6akshat]

...

[Sealbhach]

You shouldn't call him that.

It makes sense for schools to teach Micro$oft products in schools because it is what most people use in the workplace, so it helps people get a job when they can say "I've used Excel and Word". Just learn Linux in your own time, you won't be in school forever.

.

[ssj6akshat]

...

[Necron101]

I would have to agree with you on that one hat teacher dose sound like a bit of a blank

[Techsnap]

Who cares if that's their opionion. If they can't afford to install new versions of Windows they're not going to be able to afford Linux.

[madnessjack]

Maybe if you were less aggressive he'd be more understanding.

But yeah, it's a silly idea to teach Linux in schools because in most offices you'll find Windows. It's just the way it is.

(Now if I ran an office... :P)

[Glucklich]

They have Windows 98 on PCs and teach us How to use Ms Office 97.

It should be considered a crime against humanity to enter the second decade of the 21st century and still work with those. Seriously...

[Hallvor]

Calling someone names like that is not polite, useful or constructive. He was obviously just ignorant, and even admitted it, so you could probably just have told him a little about it and maybe he would even get interested.

[CharlesA]

It should be considered a crime against humanity to enter the second decade of the 21st century and still work with those. Seriously...

Same places cannot afford to upgrade to anything better.


Calling someone names like that is not polite, useful or constructive. He was obviously just ignorant, and even admitted it, so you could probably just have told him a little about it and maybe he would even get interested.

This would have worked better tbh.

[benj1]

Maybe if you were less aggressive he'd be more understanding.

But yeah, it's a silly idea to teach Linux in schools because in most offices you'll find Windows. It's just the way it is.

(Now if I ran an office... :P)

but thats just perpetuating the lock-in that MS has, surely they should be looking at what is best, plus even by your measure they should be using windows 7 as thats what you'll find in offices (i assume, by the time they finish school), i think modern linux probably has as many similarities with modern windows as windows 98.

[Glucklich]

Same places cannot afford to upgrade to anything better.

Oh yeah... because Ubuntu and OpenOffice are so expensive...

[Techsnap]

Oh yeah... because Ubuntu and OpenOffice are very expensive...

You need to look at the bigger picture, to switch to an entirely new system you'll need the following:

Staff To Set up the Config Possible Training so the staff can do this Train the End users [Other Staff] To use this Teach the Students a new system Possiblity that some hardware may have to be changed if it doesn't work. The Curriculum may not allow it.


This is why it will end up costing more. If money is an issue at that school people should be grateful for what they've got already.

[CharlesA]

You need to look at the bigger picture, to switch to an entirely new system you'll need the following:

Staff To Set up the Config Possible Training so the staff can do this Train the End users [Other Staff] To use this Teach the Students a new system Possiblity that some hardware may have to be changed if it doesn't work. The Curriculum may not allow it.


This is why it will end up costing more. If money is an issue at that school people should be grateful for what they've got already.

This pretty much sums it up.

[Physical Hook]

Maybe if you were less aggressive he'd be more understanding.

But yeah, it's a silly idea to teach Linux in schools because in most offices you'll find Windows. It's just the way it is.

(Now if I ran an office... :P)

Do people go to school to learn how to run an office ? :-s

[Glucklich]

You need to look at the bigger picture, to switch to an entirely new system you'll need the following:

Staff To Set up the Config Possible Training so the staff can do this Train the End users [Other Staff] To use this Teach the Students a new system Possiblity that some hardware may have to be changed if it doesn't work. The Curriculum may not allow it.


This is why it will end up costing more. If money is an issue at that school people should be grateful for what they've got already.

Not really. From what I was able to understand, it was a regular class. So, the only person required to learn a new way of thinking is the teacher... In a way he can pass on that knowledge to his students. That's it. That school's system would be a completely different issue. But with the knowledge apprehended during those classes, in a exploratory student/teacher relationship, it could improve gradually the school's system. The only flaw about this plan is the conformity that most teachers have towards learning, especially on lower academic levels. But you'll still be able to find some when you reach the university.

[Necron101]

I think you should tack one more step back and consider this if the school upgreaded to windows 7 then they would not only have all the installation costs but they would also have o pay for licenses for the new software. Anyway the world is run by large corporations and iv got a hunch that Microsoft is a rather large company that wouldn't be happy if every school in the world switched to Linux as that would mean that people fresh out o school would know how to use it so they would get because its free then Microsoft would be most unhappy:lolflag:

[madnessjack]

Do people go to school to learn how to run an office ? :-s
Er... no?

Offices are an example. But Uni's, libraries or anywhere else also apply. Windows is used a lot. To teach something different wouldn't make sense unless it ties in with a specific job (eg creative/graphic designers = MAC; servers/IT stuff = maybe Linux).

[speedwell68]

As suggested you aren't going to be using desktop Linux in the workplace, FACT. Whilst Win 98 is a litte dated, the interface is still useable and if you can use the W98 GUI you could adapt yourself to any other GUI. Office 97 is also quite dated. Had you considered suggesting OpenOffice as an alternative to run on W98 alongside MS Office, so that users can make the transition if they wish. Ranting at people about Linux and putting a $ symbol in the word Microsoft or MS, make you sound like a spoiled pubescant fanboy and helps no one.

[Techsnap]

I think you should tack one more step back and consider this if the school upgreaded to windows 7 then they would not only have all the installation costs but they would also have o pay for licenses for the new software. Anyway the world is run by large corporations and iv got a hunch that Microsoft is a rather large company that wouldn't be happy if every school in the world switched to Linux as that would mean that people fresh out o school would know how to use it so they would get because its free then Microsoft would be most unhappy

Microsoft sell licenses to schools for a much cheaper price than you would think.

[benj1]

Microsoft sell licenses to schools for a much cheaper price than you would think.

thats because when all the little kids grow up and become managers and have to make the decision on what IT system to buy theyll buy windows, apple do the same. thats why schools have a responsibility to look at what is best not necessarily what is cheapest.

[Necron101]

Would it be cheeper than downloading ubuntu though?

[Techsnap]

schools have a responsibility to look at what is best not necessarily what is cheapest.

Then the point is proven :P

[Glucklich]

As suggested you aren't going to be using desktop Linux in the workplace, FACT. Whilst Win 98 is a litte dated, the interface is still useable and if you can use the W98 GUI you could adapt yourself to any other GUI. Office 97 is also quite dated. Had you considered suggesting OpenOffice as an alternative to run on W98 alongside MS Office, so that users can make the transition if they wish. Ranting at people about Linux and putting a $ symbol in the word Microsoft or MS, make you sound like a spoiled pubescant fanboy and helps no one.

Oh yeah. I've heard a lot about the British gentlemanship.

But I disagree on your Windows 98 usability. If XP is unusable after a while on a contemporary computer, imagine Windows 98 on a outdated computer. It must be an absolute nightmare. When you're used to a certain thing, it takes some sensibility to notice the little details... Like excessive boot time, excessive time operating programs, not keeping in mind the more direct ones like errors (and there were A LOT in Windows 98!)... But once you know how it should work (which might come from a experiment, by trying something else) they will become clearer. I had an MMX using Windows 95 and then Windows 98... guess what I turned him into?

[sisyphus1978]

When I was at school, my 'cough' computer teacher taught us about things like punch-cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card) (imagine installing ubuntu off punch-cards, lol). At the risk of offending, they do say "those who can't, teach"...

[Necron101]

oooo oooo I know you urned him in the a crocodile

[Necron101]

i wonder how long it would take to copy 600 or so meg of punch cards

[pwnst*r]

I Study in a M$ FUD Brainwashed place.They have Windows 98 on PCs and teach us How to use Ms Office 97.

Me:Why Don't you teach us something that other than M$ Office <snip> that is 12 years old?

Teacher:Like What?

Me:Maybe Linux?

Teacher:What and teach you all how to be Hackers?No way.Anyway i don't know anything other than M$-DOS or M$ Office.

Me:You are a <snip>(in low voice).

The following conversation took place in Hindi and i have translated it to english and he doesn't know what does <snip> mean.

Shame on my School

shame on you for lying and exaggerating.

[Warpnow]

While there are rare, and often gleaming, exceptions, in general schools are managed and ran by the poorest, most intellectually void, and technologically illiterate members of a society.

If education reform were actualized, then, yes, linux would be a viable option, because you'd be hiring people with the intelligence and reasoning to problem solve. As it stands, most teachers are only good at reading from a text book that for god's sake better have the answers marked.

[Marvin666]

I dropped a class a few weeks into it because it turns out we were just doing "proper" typing and ms office stuff.

[RiceMonster]

shame on you for lying and exaggerating.

+1

[pwnst*r]

I dropped a class a few weeks inot it because it turns out we were just doing "proper" typing and ms office stuff.

i hope you picked up English class instead.

[HappinessNow]

I just scored 1,950 points to destroy this thread!!!

Awesome!

reference:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1357474

[RiceMonster]

thats because when all the little kids grow up and become managers and have to make the decision on what IT system to buy theyll buy windows, apple do the same. thats why schools have a responsibility to look at what is best not necessarily what is cheapest.

In this case, what is best is Windows and Microsoft Office. Why not Ubuntu and Open Office? Because you want to teach your students to use what they'll be using on the job in the future. Guess what businesses use? Windows and Microsoft Office.

[Marvin666]

Post edited, I'm on a junky school keyboard, and ie6. What do you expect from that combination?
I wanted to replace it with an art class, but they were are full, so I took shop instead.

[benj1]

Then the point is proven :P

if you think that windows is the better OS, i don't.


i wonder how long it would take to copy 600 or so meg of punch cards

a while, 600mb = 629,145,600 bytes, thats about 7,900,000 80 column cards, assuming 400 cards per minute http://www.ibm1130.net/functional/Cards.html.
thats about 329 hrs, and thats excluding updates

[ssj6akshat]

Same places cannot afford to upgrade to anything better.

My school has spends money like water and all the Computers are capable of running Vista and Computer came preinstalled with SLED

[ssj6akshat]

Microsoft sell licenses to schools for a much cheaper price than you would think.

all the computers have pirated windows.

[benj1]

In this case, what is best is Windows and Microsoft Office. Why not Ubuntu and Open Office? Because you want to teach your students to use what they'll be using on the job in the future. Guess what businesses use? Windows and Microsoft Office.

but thats precisely why you shouldn't just automatically be using windows, to reiterate what i said in my original post, youre just reinforcing microsofts lock-in.
i do admit its a chicken and egg situation, perhaps the solution would be to teach a greater range of OS's, at least that way they will learn that theres an actual choice, and will be able to make the decision for themselves

[pwnst*r]

all the computers have pirated windows.

x_^

[RiceMonster]

but thats precisely why you shouldn't just automatically be using windows, to reiterate what i said in my original post, youre just reinforcing microsofts lock-in.
i do admit its a chicken and egg situation, perhaps the solution would be to teach a greater range of OS's, at least that way they will learn that theres an actual choice, and will be able to make the decision for themselves

Businesses don't use Windows because they've never heard of Linux, as you're suggesting. They use it because it has good administration tools and software they rely on in which Linux does not have strong enough alternatives. The real solution is to make it a better product.

[madnessjack]

All IT solutions suck. People use Windows because it's better the devil you know.

[MooPi]

Quit shooting this page!!!!
I just scored 1,950 points to destroy this thread!!! :P
To the OP, Shame on you. Your teacher may be an **** hat but his job is an honorable position that should be due respect. When you degrade him amongst your peers it diminishes his ability to teach and instruct others.Your instructor is using what is available and probably just as frustrated as you are with antique computers. School is not the end all of learning. It is up to individuals to learn from life and find the best source of info available. Please show your teachers respect as it is a difficult job.

[Alex Libman]

Then go to a different school, or home-school yourself.

The biggest problem with education is that it's government funded, which means schools get their funding and teachers get paid regardless of the results they produce... :(

[benj1]

Businesses don't use Windows because they've never heard of Linux, as you're suggesting. They use it because it has good administration tools and software they rely on in which Linux does not have strong enough alternatives. The real solution is to make it a better product.

your assertion only holds water if you assume all IT buying decisions are made by competent IT professionals who know the pros and cons of all systems, unfortunately in most smaller offices where windows and office dominate this isn't the case.

[sdowney717]

start your own classes teaching a modern free OS and from a grass roots effort you will win people to your cause.
When you run into attitudes like your teacher has, you know he is stuck teaching only what he knows and is a system slave.

[sdowney717]

show him this link

http://www.suseblog.com/linux-migrations-an-unbelievable-list-of-nearly-100-major-migrations-world-wide

so are all these organizations and governments who switched to linux hackers, cheats etc...???

[RiceMonster]

your assertion only holds water if you assume all IT buying decisions are made by competent IT professionals who know the pros and cons of all systems, unfortunately in most smaller offices where windows and office dominate this isn't the case.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make, as my argument still remains valid for companies with very competent IT professionals. Are you suggesting that Linux vendors could sell to these people even though it doesn't match up in this area in the vast majority of cases?

[Alex Libman]

your assertion only holds water if you assume all IT buying decisions are made by competent IT professionals who know the pros and cons of all systems, unfortunately in most smaller offices where windows and office dominate this isn't the case.

You are right. Windows software offers better total cost of ownership as well.

[null_x86]

I Study in a M$ FUD Brainwashed place.They have Windows 98 on PCs and teach us How to use Ms Office 97.

Me:Why Don't you teach us something that other than M$ Office <snip> that is 12 years old?

Teacher:Like What?

Me:Maybe Linux?

Teacher:What and teach you all how to be Hackers?No way.Anyway i don't know anything other than M$-DOS or M$ Office.

Me:You are a <snip>(in low voice).

The following conversation took place in Hindi and i have translated it to english and he doesn't know what does <snip> mean.

Shame on my School


You shouldn't call him that.

It makes sense for schools to teach Micro$oft products in schools because it is what most people use in the workplace, so it helps people get a job when they can say "I've used Excel and Word". Just learn Linux in your own time, you won't be in school forever.

.


It should be considered a crime against humanity to enter the second decade of the 21st century and still work with those. Seriously...

Seriously, Windows 98 and Office 97? What workplace actually uses those anymore??? I know M$ has the majority of stuff in the workplace, but if your going to use M$ ffs, at least update to Windows 2000 or XP and Office 2003... Seriously... What can you do with 98, aside from bang your head on the desk? Also, what version of 98, First Edition or Second Edition?

[Tristam Green]

shame on you for lying and exaggerating.

No kidding.


I just scored 1,950 points to destroy this thread!!!

Awesome!

reference:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1357474

God, leave the games in the relevant threads.


all the computers have pirated windows.

That's for your school's IT dept. to sort out. What was your school's name again? MS would probably like to know so they can fine $100,000 for each licensing offense.


I find this thread funny, because there is a man I work with who moved here from India directly out of college - he is about 10 years my senior, so he would have graduated college in the 1980s, in India. He is a programmer/software developer, and a thumping good one.

He had not even touched a computer until he arrived in the US.

You heard me right. He learned to code on paper.

Do not knock the fact that his class is on Windows 98/Office 97. If it works, it works, and it is far better than the alternative of nothing at all.

[RiceMonster]

I find this thread funny, because there is a man I work with who moved here from India directly out of college - he is about 10 years my senior, so he would have graduated college in the 1980s, in India. He is a programmer/software developer, and a thumping good one.

He had not even touched a computer until he arrived in the US.

You heard me right. He learned to code on paper.

Wow, that's impressive.

[Tristam Green]

Wow, that's impressive.

Poor dude speaks English but not in any coherent form, but he's a damned virtuoso on C++ and VB.

[fela]

i think modern linux probably has as many similarities with modern windows as windows 98.

Depends what level you're talking about. If it's about the GUI, then of course Windows 98 is much more similar to Windows 7. If you're talking about the kernel, well I'm not totally sure but I'd say Linux is more similar to NT than 98's DOS kernel is. Layers in between GUI and kernel such as modern features; linux is more similar to 7 as both linux and 7 have gained new features that 98 doesn't have, such as journaled filesystems (although that's not strictly between GUI and kernel - whatever you know what I'm getting at).

[lisati]

Whilst Win 98 is a litte dated, the interface is still useable and if you can use the W98 GUI you could adapt yourself to any other GUI.
+2 Point-and-click is fairly consistent (with a few minor variations) across the GUIs I've used

When I was at school, my 'cough' computer teacher taught us about things like punch-cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card) (imagine installing ubuntu off punch-cards, lol). At the risk of offending, they do say "those who can't, teach"...
:) When I first became vaguely interested in programming, the only option I had available was with punched cards. The following year, my school had a computer (one of the first schools in the area to do so) - command line only, not even MS-DOS or Windows!

[Chame_Wizard]

Most of the schools are indeed uneducated .:popcorn:

[whiskeylover]

Wow... it was very nice of you to call him a <snip>. Truth is, your teacher has little or no say/motivation in teaching you Linux. That decision is made by the university. The real <snip> is you for <snip>. If you want things changed, go talk to someone who has the authority to do so.

[XubuRoxMySox]

all the computers have pirated windows.

LOL, not likely. School districts have a "bulk license" that they pay annually or something to run multiple copies on a large number of 'puters.

Alot of government entities buy the big multi-copy license. In a nearby county here in Florida, they use several Enterprise 'nixes on servers and stuff, but all the workstations are Windows Vista.

-Robin

[ice60]

I Study in a M$ FUD Brainwashed place.They have Windows 98 on PCs and teach us How to use Ms Office 97.

Me:Why Don't you teach us something that other than M$ Office <snip> that is 12 years old?

Teacher:Like What?

Me:Maybe Linux?

Teacher:What and teach you all how to be Hackers?No way.Anyway i don't know anything other than M$-DOS or M$ Office.

Me:You are a <snip>(in low voice).

The following conversation took place in Hindi and i have translated it to english and he doesn't know what does <snip> mean.

Shame on my School
do you make it your business to make a fool of yourself everywhere you go? you are doing a fine job.

[benj1]

He had not even touched a computer until he arrived in the US.

You heard me right. He learned to code on paper.

interesting, is this low level stuff?

perhaps it has the advantage that youre focussing exclusively on the theory rather than spending your time learning a language, it probably forces you to better understand as you cant brute force something without really understanding it, or maybe just the fact that you can look at general problem solving rather than specific implementations.
perhaps there is something to this that western universities could learn

[XubuRoxMySox]

do you make it your business to make a fool of yourself everywhere you go? you are doing a fine job.

You created a post for the sole purpose of calling another forum member a fool? Wow. Hope you feel better now. BRB, I'm going to go befriend the "fool." And add another name to my blocked list.

EDIT: Whether or not the OP really is a fool is completely beside the point. I just think mean people who take snide jabs at kids suck.


-Robin

[Tristam Green]

interesting, is this low level stuff?

perhaps it has the advantage that youre focussing exclusively on the theory rather than spending your time learning a language, it probably forces you to better understand as you cant brute force something without really understanding it, or maybe just the fact that you can look at general problem solving rather than specific implementations.
perhaps there is something to this that western universities could learn

Not really low-level stuff. He programs for our ERP system and does a good bit of database programming.

[ice60]

You created a post for the sole purpose of calling another forum member a fool? Wow. Hope you feel better now. BRB, I'm going to go befriend the "fool." And add another name to my blocked list.

EDIT: Whether or not the OP really is a fool is completely beside the point. I just think mean people who take snide jabs at kids suck.


-Robin
maybe you think it's ok for children to behave in the way he talks about but i don't. the earlier you learn there are consequences to your foolish actions the better as far as i'm concerned. why did you tell me you want to be friends with him? are you two 'fool united' or something?

of course you can't answer back if you can't see my post, can you :P FU (fools united) LOL

[FuturePilot]

I Study in a M$ FUD Brainwashed place.They have Windows 98 on PCs and teach us How to use Ms Office 97.

Me:Why Don't you teach us something that other than M$ Office <snip> that is 12 years old?

Teacher:Like What?

Me:Maybe Linux?

Teacher:What and teach you all how to be Hackers?No way.Anyway i don't know anything other than M$-DOS or M$ Office.

Me:You are a <snip>(in low voice).

The following conversation took place in Hindi and i have translated it to english and he doesn't know what does <snip> mean.

Shame on my School

This is a good example of how not to advocate Linux.

[pwnst*r]

lol^

[Chronon]

In this case, what is best is Windows and Microsoft Office. Why not Ubuntu and Open Office? Because you want to teach your students to use what they'll be using on the job in the future. Guess what businesses use? Windows and Microsoft Office.

I do not agree that businesses in the future will be using MS Office 97 on Windows 98. Interface and feature changes undermine the reasons to prefer old MS products over more contemporary free software options.

[Chronon]

LOL, not likely. School districts have a "bulk license" that they pay annually or something to run multiple copies on a large number of 'puters.

Alot of government entities buy the big multi-copy license. In a nearby county here in Florida, they use several Enterprise 'nixes on servers and stuff, but all the workstations are Windows Vista.

-Robin

The OP lives in India. I don't think your experience with your school district necessarily translates.

[murderslastcrow]

I really think Linux should be used more widely in education. Luckily, a few elementary schools and high schools around here are using Linux for more than just servers.

Hopefully it'll keep picking up, since it's odd to have controlled software in an educational environment. Linux empowers children and gives them more options.

[Techsnap]

Hopefully it'll keep picking up, since it's odd to have controlled software in an educational environment. Linux empowers children and gives them more options.

Until Linux gets a stable driver API or the stable versions (CentOS For example) can support newer software easier for example. Linux will never be a decent option for education.

Schools do not have all the money in the world and they certainly don't have the money to be paying staff to keep putting right Linux if for example it breaks after an update.

That's just the way it is.

[XubuRoxMySox]

The OP lives in India. I don't think your experience with your school district necessarily translates.

Granted, of course. But perhaps schools in India have similar licensing agreements for use on multiple computers. Just speculating that's all.

If money is such a big issue that they're still using that ancient OS in schools there, it would certainly benefit them to switch to FOSS... besides, it's India! It doesn't sense to train future generations of Tech Support call-takers using an obsolete OS. ;)

-Robin

[Chronon]

Schools do not have all the money in the world and they certainly don't have the money to be paying staff to keep putting right Linux if for example it breaks after an update.

That's just the way it is.

That's why you wouldn't run bleeding edge builds on school machines.

[Frak]

That's why you wouldn't run bleeding edge builds on school machines.
If it were only that easy.

[lukjad]

To quote Martin Luther King Jr.:

"But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred."

In other words, chill.

[starcannon]

Who cares if that's their opionion. If they can't afford to install new versions of Windows they're not going to be able to afford Linux.
Teachers should have open minds, not rigid doctrines.

While I believe the OP may have reacted inappropriately, I also can sympathize with his/her incredulity that a teacher would be so wrong on so many levels on a single subject.

The cost of installing an Operating System is minimal, the teacher is already payed to be at the institution x hours a day, fill them up with productivity I say. Further, I know here where I live, my kid's IT teachers volunteer, and ask for volunteers to help keep the computer labs up to spec, it is totally within the means of even a meager budget to run a volunteer program for such things.

[Frak]

Teachers should have open minds, not rigid doctrines.

While I believe the OP may have reacted inappropriately, I also can sympathize with his/her incredulity that a teacher would be so wrong on so many levels on a single subject.

The cost of installing an Operating System is minimal, the teacher is already payed to be at the institution x hours a day, fill them up with productivity I say. Further, I know here where I live, my kid's IT teachers volunteer, and ask for volunteers to help keep the computer labs up to spec, it is totally within the means of even a meager budget to run a volunteer program for such things.
If nobody knows how to configure/maintain/troubleshoot it, what's the point?

[starcannon]

If nobody knows how to configure/maintain/troubleshoot it, what's the point?
If no one ever teaches it, then no one will ever know how to configure/maintain/troubleshoot. I believe it is the teachers responsibility to maintain a modern and diverse IT program, that should include the 3 major Operating Systems; MS Windows, Apple OSX, and GNU/Linux. I am very much pro education, and I put my money where my mouth is; I always vote yes for school projects and pay those taxes with out even a murmur of irritation, and for the money I spend, I demand a quality education for the kids in our district. Making excuses for lackluster educational staff will not equip kids with the academic tools they need in an ever growing technological economy, holding educational staff accountable, and requiring them to do the job they are hired for, well that may be at least an approach worth exploring.

[Hwæt]

Who cares if that's their opionion. If they can't afford to install new versions of Windows they're not going to be able to afford Linux.

lolwut?

[Frak]

If no one ever teaches it, then no one will ever know how to configure/maintain/troubleshoot. I believe it is the teachers responsibility to maintain a modern and diverse IT program, that should include the 3 major Operating Systems; MS Windows, Apple OSX, and GNU/Linux. I am very much pro education, and I put my money where my mouth is; I always vote yes for school projects and pay those taxes with out even a murmur of irritation, and for the money I spend, I demand a quality education for the kids in our district. Making excuses for lackluster educational staff will not equip kids with the academic tools they need in an ever growing technological economy, holding educational staff accountable, and requiring them to do the job they are hired for, well that may be at least an approach worth exploring.

Linux is still a subject that is taught to those wanting to go into the Embedded or Server administration division. Regular students have a hard enough time learning how to use a Windows computer to its fullest, put them on a Linux one and confuse them 3 different ways.

The market has Windows. Windows limits the choice of what GUI you use, tools you have by default (very little), and how far the GUI can be modified. This lack of freedom makes it easier to administer and easier to learn. If what you use rarely changes, and is hard to change, less you need to learn. Choice is intimidating, and in the business world, too much freedom can limit productivity.

http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
The Paradox of Choice is a very good book.

[JDShu]

Windows 98 and Office 97 is way too outdated to teach. Linux is probably not a good idea either, at least exclusively.

[kreggz]

Why don't you offer to install Ubuntu on an older PC as a school project? Maybe some of the more tech savy students will be interested.

[starcannon]

Linux is still a subject that is taught to those wanting to go into the Embedded or Server administration division. Regular students have a hard enough time learning how to use a Windows computer to its fullest, put them on a Linux one and confuse them 3 different ways.

The market has Windows. Windows limits the choice of what GUI you use, tools you have by default (very little), and how far the GUI can be modified. This lack of freedom makes it easier to administer and easier to learn. If what you use rarely changes, and is hard to change, less you need to learn. Choice is intimidating, and in the business world, too much freedom can limit productivity.

http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
The Paradox of Choice is a very good book.

Regular students have no trouble at all learning MS Windows, Apple OSX, and they would have no trouble at all using one of the 2 major Linux DE's, let the teacher decide which DE to teach in. I do not see any evidence that students are easily confused; quite the contrary, I see students who actually accomplish quite a lot with what little is given, I see students capable of so much more.

As for "the paradox of choice", I find the entire concept to be drivel. It only seems to be in computing that this sort of nonsense is preached. Everywhere else in our world "choice" is demanded, not ridiculed. I believe the "paradox of choice" to be fud and nothing more.

Choice is intimidating? No, not at all; choice is expanding, and liberating. As far as the business world goes, the IT department is responsible for locking down machines, whether it is a Windows, Linux, or OSX operating system.
*snip*

[Frak]

Regular students have no trouble at all learning MS Windows, Apple OSX, and they would have no trouble at all using one of the 2 major Linux DE's, let the teacher decide which DE to teach in. I do not see any evidence that students are easily confused; quite the contrary, I see students who actually accomplish quite a lot with what little is given, I see students capable of so much more.

I would like to see some evidence from that. I maintain a television editing room for a local school, and I know very well that these kids have a hard time adjusting to these Macs. After a year, they don't know what Finder is, what Safari is, or how to reconfigure the mouse to use the secondary click (2nd click is disabled by default). 2 other DE's would just cause lag in the instruction.


As for "the paradox of choice", I find the entire concept to be drivel. It only seems to be in computing that this sort of nonsense is preached. Everywhere else in our world "choice" is demanded, not ridiculed. I believe the "paradox of choice" to be fud and nothing more.

I think you're just too afraid to admit he's right. Look at global warming, for example. People have a choice, do something, but risk your own luxury, or not to something and call it all rubbish. Many decide that they will just wait to do something, decide on it later. In that event, they are choosing the latter, because tomorrow will never come.


Choice is intimidating? No, not at all; choice is expanding, and liberating. As far as the business world goes, the IT department is responsible for locking down machines, whether it is a Windows, Linux, or OSX operating system.

Choice is paralyzing. Lack of choice is depressing. Microsoft has pretty much hit middle ground with it. You can change it, to a degree. You'll never come upon an unfamiliar face.

[starcannon]

I would like to see some evidence from that. I maintain a television editing room for a local school, and I know very well that these kids have a hard time adjusting to these Macs. After a year, they don't know what Finder is, what Safari is, or how to reconfigure the mouse to use the secondary click (2nd click is disabled by default). 2 other DE's would just cause lag in the instruction.
I'm incredulous, I help kids out on a volunteer basis, and I do not see kids having any difficulty at all picking up the basic concepts you just layed down. I do not recommend teaching both Gnome and KDE, I recommend teaching one or the other, the child may explore further on their own time if they wish, just that one of the main DE's would be used in a Linux course. If after a year you have not been able to teach them where finder is, or what safari is, or how to adjust their mouse settings, I certainly don't think its the kid who is failing...




I think you're just too afraid to admit he's right. Look at global warming, for example. People have a choice, do something, but risk your own luxury, or not to something and call it all rubbish. Many decide that they will just wait to do something, decide on it later. In that event, they are choosing the latter, because tomorrow will never come. I'm not afraid to admit anything. I'm not sure I follow what global warming has to do with this subject as your thought seems to have gotten fragmented, it trailed off and I don't know where it was going. I still maintain that "the paradox of choice" is nonsense. Nothing in that paragraph caused me to even consider changing that opinion. Though I am open to discussing that issue further.




Choice is paralyzing. Lack of choice is depressing. Microsoft has pretty much hit middle ground with it. You can change it, to a degree. You'll never come upon an unfamiliar face.Choice is not paralyzing, at least not for the majority of us. If it is a problem that you personally have, my sympathies; but the rest of us should not be forced into an olive drab existence simply because a very small minority can not handle the full spectrum of color. I have nothing against teaching MS in school; quite the contrary, I would find it remiss if it were not taught. On that same line, I find it remiss that Linux is not taught, and that OSX is barely taught at all, and that the teaching methods have kids not understanding that Safari is a web browser, even after a year of classroom time.

[Frak]

I'm incredulous, I help kids out on a volunteer basis, and I do not see kids having any difficulty at all picking up the basic concepts you just layed down.

You must help some incredible kids. The ones I know, know how to get to facebook and the internet, but have no idea what an "Internet Explorer" is. This isn't just Oklahoma, this is Guam, UK, Japan, and many parts of Europe.


I'm not afraid to admit anything. I'm not sure I follow what global warming has to do with this subject as your thought seems to have gotten fragmented, it trailed off and I don't know where it was going. I still maintain that "the paradox of choice" is nonsense. Nothing in that paragraph caused me to even consider changing that opinion. Though I am open to discussing that issue further.

Then quit avoiding it. Quit acting like you don't know what I'm talking about. I laid it out, very clear, people don't make a choice because they are afraid they won't make the right choice.


Choice is not paralyzing, at least not for the majority of us.

That's why they give you an option between Linux and Windows when you buy a computer. People just love the choice between them. They love to weight the pros and cons.

[xuCGC002]

Someone saying "We don't use Linux" doesn't exactly constitute you to insulting them. It's like going to a local free clinic and asking why they don't use Germ-X over Purell hand sanitizer, and when they say "Well we don't buy Germ-X", you say "<meep> you!" and head out the door.

[steveneddy]

The teacher is teaching you to operate software that you will find in the modern workplace.

Don't let that dissuade you from using and learning more about Ubuntu in particular and Linux in general.

Use this opportunity to find out how to perform an action in Windows or MS Office and find the similar path on Linux and OOo.

Most of us prefer Ubuntu or some type of Linux, but realize that Windows won't go away any time soon, so we learn how to make the most money off of this horrible OS.

Everything in life is a learning experience, even though we may not agree with it at the moment, but a learning experience none the less.

:)

[starcannon]

You must help some incredible kids. The ones I know, know how to get to facebook and the internet, but have no idea what an "Internet Explorer" is. This isn't just Oklahoma, this is Guam, UK, Japan, and many parts of Europe.
I don't know, guess I just got lucky and all the kids I've had the pleasure to help here in Washington State can actually learn and understand.




Then quit avoiding it. Quit acting like you don't know what I'm talking about. I laid it out, very clear, people don't make a choice because they are afraid they won't make the right choice.
I didn't realize I was avoiding; but this statement is more concise, and I can at least see where your coming from. I think that the population of people afraid to make choices must be very small indeed, for instance, Wal-Mart exists. Wal-mart does not offer one television, they offer a lot of televisions, lots of choices, and people don't run out of the store terrified to make a choice(at least not generally). I think your overstating a situation that only exists for a small percentage of people with a very specific psychological disorder, I do not see making decisions and weighing choices as something most people shy away from; indeed, current popular marketing suggests quite the opposite in just about every market except computing.




That's why they give you an option between Linux and Windows when you buy a computer. People just love the choice between them. They love to weight the pros and cons.
I sense a bit of sarcasm in this remark, and unless it is quantified a bit more I will not address it.

[Exodist]

In before the icebergs hit.. YEA!!

[Frak]

In before the icebergs hit.. YEA!!
You mean inb4mod?

O, i did it.

[lisati]

He learned to code on paper.
Good observation. When I was working as a programmer back in the 1980s, one company I worked for actually encouraged working things out on paper first and running it by one or more colleagues to see if the underlying logic was sound.

[Techsnap]

Regular students have no trouble at all learning MS Windows,

Yes they do. I know because of where I work. Very few students in between the age of 11 and 18 can use a computer properly, even Windows.

[squilookle]

I can see why it might be frustrating - especially the teachers rather uninformed comments.

My school taught us on Office 97 - although I left school in 2002 and we had NT 4 - and I have to say it might very well have been the best version of Office - purely because of the Excel flight simulator. :)

If I remember rightly, you have to go to type X97:L97 into the range box (I think thats what it does, I use Access more these days) in the top left, hold Ctrl and Shift, and click the chart wizard.

Then you just control the flight sim with the mouse.

It would probably look quite dissapointing now, but because we discovered it before our teacher, it was very exciting at the time...

Probably best just to get on with it and do the best you can while you are there. i was never a bad student, but I did start to have clashes with the teachers during my last year when I realised I felt more mature than they were treating us - and I let them know it... but having been out of school for 7 years, I now know it really doesnt matter how the teachers treated me now: I got the grades I needed to get where I want to be now, and thats fine. :)

[ssj6akshat]

I didn't want to say him a <snip> but i am in a school where everyone has that word ready in mouth.They were going to teach us C++ but the new teacher doesn't know it.

[clanky]

Ok, first point I don't believe for one second that the original conversation went anything like that, even translated from Hindi.

Second point, just because you like Linux does not mean that your school should use it or that they are wrong to use Windows. There are many reasons why a school would choose not to use Linux as an OS: compatibility with existing hardware being the main one that I can think of, although the need to retrain staff and change the curriculum are two others which spring to mind.

Office software is office software, if you learn how to use MS office then those skills would be transferable to any office software and vice versa, what can you not do in office 97 that you could do in open office?

Personally I would see the way forward as running the more recent versions of OO in Windows, no need to change hardware, no dramas with retraining staff and the ability to upgrade for free to the latest version.