Why do people seem to have so much trouble admitting when Linux does something well?

[hoppipolla]

This is just something I notice ._.

Like, "oh Plasma is really powerful, like you can scale and rotate things, have a desktop folder, theme things individually, place things on bars and panels, move panels around and add more" and the excuse wait for it.... you don't need that.

Ok, so I guess I don't then, I thought I did but I guess I don't lol

Ok so, you can have 3D representation of your windows, cube workspaces, window dodge... don't need that either? ok erm...

Movable panels and a gorgeous toolkit! Yes, advanced, fast moving toolkit that's bringing exciting changes with every... don't... need... that.... alright...

I just get a little tired sometimes of people paying no attention to all the fantastic things an open source desktop can do! It's like putting your fingers in your ears and humming!

Bi-annual GUI upgrades with truckloads of new features? Don't need that? Fine...

Hoppi!


EDIT -- Oh in this context I am using Linux as a term to also cover all Linux-based OSs and open source stuff, as people often do! Sloppy but effective lol

[spoons]

It's probably because somthing they really need isn't present, and although these other things are nice they're not really concerned about them. For example, I would trade in the entire plasma desktop to get ATi drivers and WINE working perfectly, if I had to.

[hoppipolla]

It's probably because somthing they really need isn't present, and although these other things are nice they're not really concerned about them. For example, I would trade in the entire plasma desktop to get ATi drivers and WINE working perfectly, if I had to.

well possibly, but the thing is most of the problems are support issues.

I don't see how one thing being bad or missing means that another thing isn't good! I mean, there are things out there I hate, but when they do something well I can say "yeah I'll admit that's pretty cool..."

Many people seem to lack that ability though!! :)

[malice.in.murderland]

kde is horrible

[AllRadioisDead]

Honestly, on these forums I get the opposite impression. People have a hard time admitting linux doesn't do something well.

[tgalati4]

Other than looking cool, the desktop doesn't get any work done.

[hoppipolla]

kde is horrible

the biggest IN YOUR OPINION in recorded history is applicable here! xD


Honestly, on these forums I get the opposite impression. People have a hard time admitting linux doesn't do something well.

on the forums yeah, but I mainly meant everywhere else!!


Other than looking cool, the desktop doesn't get any work done.

doesn't it depend what work you're doing?

[Xbehave]

Other than looking cool, the desktop doesn't get any work done.
Plasma is an enabler:
The notification systems lets you forget about background tasks until they are ready.
Auto hiding partial panels Give you quick access to tools without tacking up permanent screen space
The various widgets give you features/instant access to features


Note I'm not saying gnome can't do this i'm just saying pannels allow you to get more work done.

Personally I think KDEs biggest features are kwin, kross & nepomunk not its fancy graphics, but i do appreciate the beauty of the plasma system,

[earthpigg]

@hoppi-

kde is the krappiest de ever.

[hoppipolla]

@hoppi-

kde is the krappiest de ever.

sometimes I think people are just jealous or something o.O

Or maybe haven't tried it since 4.2...

EDIT -- ooorrrr were you just winding me up? hehe

I'll admit someone saying "KDE is crap" sets me off fairly fast! If it was a wind-up... damn u!! lol

[Diluted]

IN YOUR OPINION
The same can be applied to your question. Maybe in their opinion, all those innovation you just mentioned is just a waste of time? Maybe in their opinion, KDE is inferior in some other ways?

[earthpigg]

it's ok, hoppi. we dont think less of you because of your addiction to a substandard desktop enviornment.

[hoppipolla]

it's ok, hoppi. we dont think less of you because of your addiction to a substandard desktop enviornment.

I will not take the bait I will not take the bait I will not take the bait I will not take the bait I will not take the bait I will not take the bait I will not take the bait I will not take the bait I will not take the bait I will not take the bait I will not take the bait I will not take the bait!! ^_^

[KiwiNZ]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

If what ever works the best for them , then for them it is the best . This whole " my one is better than your one " is very tiresome.

[-grubby]

Indeed the KDE4 framework and such does seem impressive. Gotta agree with Kiwi though.

[earthpigg]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

If what ever works the best for them , then for them it is the best . This whole " my one is better than your one " is very tiresome.

you caught that i was poking fun at hoppi in a friendly way, right?

:D

[slumbergod]

I admit Xfce 4.6.1 is great! The best desktop environment (while also admitting that wireless in Karmic is the crappiest implementation for ages!)

[hoppipolla]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

If what ever works the best for them , then for them it is the best . This whole " my one is better than your one " is very tiresome.

oh no no I didn't mean it like that! I don't mind what they use :)

It's just, I find it a little annoying when something is clearly cool, but someone seems to just ignore it or cast it aside just because it's associated with Linux OSs ._. I dunno, just something I have observed!

I mean, I don't like Mac, but I appreciate the clean interface, choice of software, nice effects, Finder/Coverflow, Spotlight... all that jazz! :)

[Khakilang]

After 20 years is still very hard for me to admit that Window is better than Linux. Because it isn't better than Linux.

[hoppipolla]

After 20 years is still very hard for me to admit that Window is better than Linux. Because it isn't better than Linux.

haha quote of the day easily!

Mind if I tweet that? :D


"After 20 years its still very hard for me to admit that Windows is better than Linux. Because it isn't better than Linux." - Koh Kook Loon.

[phrostbyte]

Because it has nothing to do with the technology at all. Some people are inherently biased on Linux/FOSS. These people are called reactionaries.

One such example of reactionaries were the Luddites. These were people who were against new technology of the Industrial Revolution. They were textile workers who were fighting against the introduction of factories and machines (such as the loom). These machines were doing their job better then they could ever do it. The Luddites were no small movement. Their actions destabilized the UK at the time, and it got so bad the UK military had to get involved.

We are in a new era similar to the Industrial Revolution, the Information Revolution - and free culture is a part of this in a big way. Big changes are again happening to how society is structured.

So really, think of Linux haters as the modern day Luddites. Many of them are software developers or IT people. Many who trained and are certified in Microsoft proprietary technologies. Linux and FOSS poses a real threat to them and their career choices. Even if free culture is something that is better pragmatically and it could improve society idealistically, they will fight it violently. Just as their ancestors may have fought the steam engine or the loom years ago.

But don't worry. There is something consistent about reactionaries though, they almost never stop the wheels of progress. ;) Because most people seem to be able to see the long term possibilities, instead of the short term familiarity.

[MaxIBoy]

Other than looking cool, the desktop doesn't get any work done.


Change all fonts to size 9.
Change all text to white.
Change all backgrounds to bright green.
Change all buttons and icons to bright orange.
Enjoy your totally unchanged productivity.

[Eisenwinter]

It's probably because somthing they really need isn't present, and although these other things are nice they're not really concerned about them. For example, I would trade in the entire plasma desktop to get ATi drivers and WINE working perfectly, if I had to.
Woah, exactly the same for me man!

I'd much rather have better ATI drivers (I can't even play native Linux games which require acceleration, it's just too slow), and WINE working perfectly so I could play some games that are only available for Windows.

[hoppipolla]

Because it has nothing to do with the technology at all. Some people are inherently biased on Linux/FOSS. These people are called reactionaries.

One such example of reactionaries were the Luddites. These were people who were against new technology of the Industrial Revolution. They were textile workers who were fighting against the introduction of factories and machines (such as the loom). These machines were doing their job better then they could ever do it. The Luddites were no small movement. Their actions destabilized the UK at the time, and it got so bad the UK military had to get involved.

We are in a new era similar to the Industrial Revolution, the Information Revolution - and free culture is a part of this in a big way. Big changes are again happening to how society is structured.

So really, think of Linux haters as the modern day Luddites. Many of them are software developers or IT people. Many who trained and are certified in Microsoft proprietary technologies. Linux and FOSS poses a real threat to them and their career choices. Even if free culture is something that is better pragmatically and it could improve society idealistically, they will fight it violently. Just as their ancestors may have fought the steam engine or the loom years ago.

But don't worry. There is something consistent about reactionaries though, they almost never stop the wheels of progress. ;) Because most people seem to be able to see the long term possibilities, instead of the short term familiarity.

wow, that was really good O.O

heh, well done, and well written :)

I do personally believe that open source is best for most at least core applications and software. Stuff that most people use, such as the core OS and desktop, browser, messenger, music players, video players, mail clients, etc etc.

As for more specialized software... I really don't know, we'll have to wait and see! I think at least for the foreseeable future that may be best with companies though who can drive the projects financially.

Great post though, and we'll see what happens in the future :)

[clanky]

I would say that the type of reactions you are talking about probably come from people who are so frustrated at the failings in Linux that the good points really don't matter to them.

It also depends on the context in which you have been talking about Plasma or whatever good point you are raising. If someone is making a point about how they are struggling to get X to run stably on their machine and they receive a whole speil about how wonderful plasma is and how ItWorksForME(TM) (http://www.tmrepository.com/trademarks/worksforme/) then they are probably not going to be too keen to discuss the irtues of Plasma.

It is one of the reasons why the fanboy section of the community is so harmful to Linux, people get so frustrated with the constant cries of LinuxIsPerfect(TM) (http://www.tmrepository.com/trademarks/linuxisperfect/) that they feel the need to highlight the failings in Linux rather than concentrate on the positives.

[RiceMonster]

This can be applied to anything. There are people on this board that refuse to recognize anything Windows does well, and not recognize anything Linux doesn't do well. People need to be able to see the pros of cons of everything. Obviously, you can have a preference (most of us here, including me, prefer Linux in the case of operating systems), but that doesn't mean you have to think it's flawless.

[hoppipolla]

There are people on this board that refuse to recognize anything Windows does well, and not recognize anything Linux doesn't do well.

lol yes but that may be because it's a Linux forum :)


I would say that the type of reactions you are talking about probably come from people who are so frustrated at the failings in Linux that the good points really don't matter to them.

It also depends on the context in which you have been talking about Plasma or whatever good point you are raising. If someone is making a point about how they are struggling to get X to run stably on their machine and they receive a whole speil about how wonderful plasma is and how ItWorksForME(TM) (http://www.tmrepository.com/trademarks/worksforme/) then they are probably not going to be too keen to discuss the irtues of Plasma.

It is one of the reasons why the fanboy section of the community is so harmful to Linux, people get so frustrated with the constant cries of LinuxIsPerfect(TM) (http://www.tmrepository.com/trademarks/linuxisperfect/) that they feel the need to highlight the failings in Linux rather than concentrate on the positives.

fair enough I guess... it doesn't really affect my judgement of something though, I still recognize both the pros and cons of something and give something praise for doing something well! :)


And I'm still wondering if I can retweet Koh Kook Loon's post! I probably can! hehe

[forrestcupp]

Hey, hoppi. I agree with your original post. Too many people think that because we don't need something means that we shouldn't have it at all. If Linux only came with the bare minimum of what I need, I wouldn't want anything to do with it.

Gimme some things I want, too. ;)

Also, some programmers may not know how to develop some of the things we really need, but they're good at whipping up things that may seem frivolous. Should they just do nothing because we don't need that stuff?

[kevCast]

it's ok, hoppi. we dont think less of you because of your addiction to a substandard desktop enviornment.

Speak for yourself.

jk all day

[Tristam Green]

It's probably because somthing they really need isn't present, and although these other things are nice they're not really concerned about them. For example, I would trade in the entire plasma desktop to get ATi drivers and WINE working perfectly, if I had to.

ding ding ding. we have a winner, folks. i would trade eye-candy for functionality any day of the week.

Make it work, *then* make it look pretty. This alone is why I've stayed away from Ubuntu since 9.04, and haven't had the desire to *learn* another distro, really.


haha quote of the day easily!

Mind if I tweet that? :D


"After 20 years its still very hard for me to admit that Windows is better than Linux. Because it isn't better than Linux." - Koh Kook Loon.

I find it interesting that he finds it hard to admit Windows is better than Linux 20 years later, given that Linux has only been around since 1991. But then again I'm an exacting kind of fool.

[earthpigg]

I find it interesting that he finds it hard to admit Windows is better than Linux 20 years later, given that Linux has only been around since 1991. But then again I'm an exacting kind of fool.

he could be mixing-and-matching GNU with Linux.

or, as it was just a casual joke, he could have simply not bothered. 20 years flows a lot better than 18 years.

speaking of which, we need to have a giant celebration on the 25th of August in 2012 -

1) its a few months before the end of the world
2) its Linux's 21st birthday

[GuiGuy]

Honestly, on these forums I get the opposite impression. People have a hard time admitting linux doesn't do something well.

Yea, that'd be the fanboys.

Me, I am now so disillusioned with Linux/ Ubuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8496787) that I'll be buying the Windows7 Family Pack this morning and getting rid of linux.

Essentially I have poured untold hours into our mythbuntu based home entertainment system. While it worked for a while two days ago it decided that we didn't sound anymore.

Simply put, I just can't take the flaky hardware support anymore...

Linux/ Ubuntu is for fanboys and those who like to spend more time under the hood rather than drive the car.

[RiceMonster]

Linux/ Ubuntu is for fanboys and those who like to spend more time under the hood rather than drive the car.

This is just as bad an assertion to make as "Windows is for idiots who don't know how to use a computer". If you'd rather use Windows, that's cool, go for it. Windows is a good OS. Just don't generalize like Linux fanboys do about Windows.

[Shpongle]

i notice that too , and people see aero or a mac and theyre like wow and then say you dont need that when they see compiz , its just biased opinions!!!

[GuiGuy]

. Just don't generalize like Linux fanboys do about Windows.

The very topic of this thread is a generalization, so I'll generalize as much as I like.

[Tristam Green]

Linux/ Ubuntu is for fanboys and those who like to spend more time under the hood rather than drive the car.

I'd rather tinker, then drive, thank you very much.

I break my Windows installs all the time.

[ibuclaw]

Yea, that'd be the fanboys.

Me, I am now so disillusioned with Linux/ Ubuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8496787) that I'll be buying the Windows7 Family Pack this morning and getting rid of linux.

Essentially I have poured untold hours into our mythbuntu based home entertainment system. While it worked for a while two days ago it decided that we didn't sound anymore.

Simply put, I just can't take the flaky hardware support anymore...

Linux/ Ubuntu is for fanboys and those who like to spend more time under the hood rather than drive the car.

Multiple applications using multiple audio frameworks == Possibility of breakage somewhere.

The chances could be that you installed several applications that when trying to access the same device - but one app takes direct control of /dev/dsp and decides to crash on you - meaning no sound access for every other application.

The fix would be for everyone to agree to use one audio framework (ie: gstreamer) and call it a day - then suddenly 90% of all Linux audio problems will magically disappear...
But, that is never going to happen (in the foreseen future) and we'll just have to deal with fragmentation for the time being.

As the user, it is generally then left down for you to know which applications to choose to ensure best compatibility/consistency.

As far as I am aware - the default applications that come with your installation are compiled to use the same framework. So if you are having issue - you may have deviated somewhere.


Oh - and I just drive my Linux Laptops all day long :)
Then when night comes - I turn on my Linux Desktop and play native Linux games... :D

[murderslastcrow]

People are nitpicky. That's why there are so many great Window Managers, Desktop Environments, and other utilities- they appeal to different kinds of people. KDE and Gnome strive to be the one-size-fits-all DEs, in a sense.

Linux is amazing. It does very well. But one big reason why people don't cry from the rooftops about this stuff is that the Linux community is used to criticizing itself. Having a strong sense of reflection that causes projects to excel and improve. However, being dismissive of our achievements is counter-productive, since knowing what you're dealing with is key to making it better.

But yeah, the Linux desktop is amazing the way it is, and I look forward to how much better it will get in time. Open source has made my computing life much nicer.

[hoppipolla]

The very topic of this thread is a generalization, so I'll generalize as much as I like.

I wasn't targeting one group though, and I wasn't saying it THAT seriously, it was obvious I wasn't talking about every human on the face of planet Earth! lol


Multiple applications using multiple audio frameworks == Possibility of breakage somewhere.

The chances could be that you installed several applications that when trying to access the same device - but one app takes direct control of /dev/dsp and decides to crash on you - meaning no sound access for every other application.

The fix would be for everyone to agree to use one audio framework (ie: gstreamer) and call it a day - then suddenly 90% of all Linux audio problems will magically disappear...
But, that is never going to happen (in the foreseen future) and we'll just have to deal with fragmentation for the time being.

As the user, it is generally then left down for you to know which applications to choose to ensure best compatibility/consistency.

As far as I am aware - the default applications that come with your installation are compiled to use the same framework. So if you are having issue - you may have deviated somewhere.


Oh - and I just drive my Linux Laptops all day long :)
Then when night comes - I turn on my Linux Desktop and play native Linux games... :D

hehe yeah I think you're right here, although I have found no audio problems whatsoever after switching to KDE for the final time recently and bunging Pulseaudio to the top of all it's preferences settings. I can honestly say that the sound usually now flows better than on Windows even with all it's official drivers from the manufacturer's websites downloaded specially by me! heh :)

[hoppipolla]

People are nitpicky. That's why there are so many great Window Managers, Desktop Environments, and other utilities- they appeal to different kinds of people. KDE and Gnome strive to be the one-size-fits-all DEs, in a sense.

Linux is amazing. It does very well. But one big reason why people don't cry from the rooftops about this stuff is that the Linux community is used to criticizing itself. Having a strong sense of reflection that causes projects to excel and improve. However, being dismissive of our achievements is counter-productive, since knowing what you're dealing with is key to making it better.

But yeah, the Linux desktop is amazing the way it is, and I look forward to how much better it will get in time. Open source has made my computing life much nicer.

yeah I thought this was well said, I think there is a real mix of outlook's out there but yeah I do think people are too critical of what is a very fun, stable and secure OS in my experience, particularly in recent years. Also once set up it can run like an absolute dream!