When are you no longer a noob?

[zcacogp]

I think I have just passed a threshold.

I've been using Ubuntu since the very tail end of 8.10, and went to 9.04 almost immediately. I thought it was rubbish. I was only booting into it about once every two weeks, and then only out of boredom. It seemed to work well on one of my machines (IBM X31), but badly on an X61s and a home-built AMD desktop. Firefox crashed. Often. Videos wouldn't play. The screen was inelegant. The OS itself would crash once every 6 or 7 times I used it.

Then 9.10 came along and I installed that. Suddenly, it all makes sense! It works WELL on my desktop (main machine). I still think that the screen is less well organised (icons and toolbars aren't as elegant as in XP), but I have got to grips with compiz and have made it all respond pretty much exactly as I want it to. I like it ... quite a lot. It is much better on the X61s as well (although sadly not as good on the X31.)

This morning someone posted me a *.docx file. It opened fine in Open Office. Just fine! Sadly, it wouldn't save, so I saved it as a plain *.doc, then booted into XP to see if that would fare any better. Guess what? Office 2003 didn't even know what it was looking at! Ubuntu and Open Office handled it just fine and the Microsoft product didn't even recognise the Microsoft filetype!*

Impressed? I was! I guess this probably means the following:

1. I am now a post-Microsoft user.
2. Ubuntu is here to stay.
3. I am no longer a noob. Ubuntu has a practical purpose and proved itself to be superior to Windows; it is no longer just a toy to me.


Oli.

* - Yes, OK, I know it's not backwards compatible yada yada yada ... but I was still dead chuffed!

[forrestcupp]

If you still have to ask, you're an advanced noob. :)

And good job, by the way. ;)

[zcacogp]

If you still have to ask, you're an advanced noob. :)Git! ;)

You burst that bubble jolly quick! And I was just enjoying it ...


Oli.

[koleoptero]

It grows on you with time. I absolutely love it after 3 years of having ubuntu as my main OS. And if you don't like it's look customize it. Visit the screenshot thread above and see what wonderful things you can do with it. :)

[RiceMonster]

To officially be a non-noob you must get non-noob 3.0 certified.

[mivo]

Sadly, it wouldn't save, so I saved it as a plain *.doc, then booted into XP to see if that would fare any better. Guess what? Office 2003 didn't even know what it was looking at! Ubuntu and Open Office handled it just fine and the Microsoft product didn't even recognise the Microsoft filetype!

Ubuntu has nothing to do with this. Open Office exists on Windows and MacOSX, too. That aside, as you even realised yourself, you saved it in a version of .doc that was defined long after MS Office 2003 came out. If a program produces files in the standard format of another application, and the original application cannot read it, then that means that Open Office creates incompatible files. (Note: I only use Open Office myself, but I don't need MS Office compatibility in my job.)

Perhaps an answer to your question is: "When you no longer feel the need to ask this question."

[zcacogp]

Ubuntu has nothing to do with this. Open Office exists on Windows and MacOSX, too. That aside, as you even realised yourself, you saved it in a version of .doc that was defined long after MS Office 2003 came out. If a program produces files in the standard format of another application, and the original application cannot read it, then that means that Open Office creates incompatible files. (Note: I only use Open Office myself, but I don't need MS Office compatibility in my job.)
Mivo,

You are, of course, correct. Open Office on XP would have done the same. But I was trying to be cheery about my new-found possibly-no-longer-a-ubuntu-noob feeling ...

Ah well, the bubble was popped about four posts ago anyway, so maybe I should get over the deflated feeling eh?


Oli.

[openuniverse]

.

[infestor]

the day one stopped using desktop environment i think one goes out of n00bness.

[RiceMonster]

the day one stopped using desktop environment i think one goes out of n00bness.

Then they get bored of obsessing over ram usage and trying to feel hardcore because they can configure a wm and go back to using a desktop environment.

[BinaryFeast]

Depends on the context and to whom you are comparing yourself. You will always find someone to whom you'll be a n00b in comparison. And there will always be people who will be n00bs in your eyes.

In other words: you will always be a n00b.

[Grenage]

You'll be a noob until the day you die, all of us will be. Things change too quickly for there to be a master of all.

[mivo]

Ah well, the bubble was popped about four posts ago anyway, so maybe I should get over the deflated feeling eh?

Best advice I have to offer is: Give it less importance.

I play a lot of Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)), an Asian board game, and one of the many things it has taught me is that the more you learn, the more your realize how little you know. You can learn how to play Go in a few minutes, but every time you learn something new about it, you discover a fresh layer of complexity, and you feel again like you know nothing about the game.

I think it's the same with most things, Linux included. When you first started, you were "???" about this new OS. After installing and perhaps reading about file systems and partitions, you knew more, but then realized that you don't know how to add new software, so you learned about this. Perhaps after this, you noticed how lacking the GUI tools are for some advanced software installation tasks, so you dove into the shell. Once comfortable with the shell, you might have wondered how to automated some of the stuff you do, so you looked up scripting ... etc, etc.

Or differently put, you always learn, and you are never a "noob", because today you know more than you knew yesterday, and tomorrow you will know more than you do today.

[foldingstock]

You'll be a noob until the day you die, all of us will be. Things change too quickly for there to be a master of all.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but the above comment is incorrect. "n00b" has always been a derogatory term used to describe someone with little experience that is disruptive/rude/trollish. The more appropriate term would be "newbie," meaning someone that is new to a certain task/experience.

No one willing to learn and try new experiences should be described as a "n00b." In the same sense, I would never refer to such a person as an "idiot" or a "moron." Genuine learning is a wonderful thing that should be met with a welcomed spirit.


when you stop learning.

I also believe this to be incorrect. The day you stop learning is the day you close your mind. This would be a very sad event.

It is quite possible for a very advanced, intelligent person to be a "newbie," just as the opposite is possible.

If you're comfortable with Ubuntu and it works well for what you need, you're no longer a newbie, but a user. Congratulations.

Don't stop here though. The open source world is full of amazing ideas. I hope you stay on the path of knowledge, always learning and undertaking new and more exciting feats.

[Grenage]

N00b and newbie are pretty synonymous.

[mivo]

N00b and newbie are pretty synonymous.

Not in my experience. A "newbie" is someone who is new at something and learning. A "noob" is an often obnoxious, annoying person who acts like an idiot and fails at whatever it is they are trying to do in a foolish way.

[Grenage]

In that case, I stand corrected. :)

[mivo]

May still depend on context and who you talk to, though. :) I never heard "noob" being used in a positive, non-insulting way, or before a few years ago. I worked for a number of places/services in the 90s that used "newbie" as a perfectly acceptable term to refer to newcomers. CompuServe, when it was an actual online service, being one of them.

[openuniverse]

.

[Megrimn]

Maybe it's really just a fault of the english language and incorrect grammar.

n00b vs. newb. - like then and than, or affect and effect.

[toupeiro]

when you stop learning.

+1 and /signed

[0sm]

Ive been using it about the same amount of time as you have

[xuCGC002]

To officially be a non-noob you must get non-noob 3.0 certified.

In order to do that you must register on their website and then take a written test at your local non-noob certification center.

[LinuxFanBoi]

When is one no longer a n00b?

When you can solve your problems on your own, and the posts you submit to forums are to help others solve their problems. <snip>

[toupeiro]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but the above comment is incorrect. "n00b" has always been a derogatory term used to describe someone with little experience that is disruptive/rude/trollish. The more appropriate term would be "newbie," meaning someone that is new to a certain task/experience.

No one willing to learn and try new experiences should be described as a "n00b." In the same sense, I would never refer to such a person as an "idiot" or a "moron." Genuine learning is a wonderful thing that should be met with a welcomed spirit.



I also believe this to be incorrect. The day you stop learning is the day you close your mind. This would be a very sad event.

It is quite possible for a very advanced, intelligent person to be a "newbie," just as the opposite is possible.

If you're comfortable with Ubuntu and it works well for what you need, you're no longer a newbie, but a user. Congratulations.

Don't stop here though. The open source world is full of amazing ideas. I hope you stay on the path of knowledge, always learning and undertaking new and more exciting feats.

I've heard newbie and noob used by people that have been in IT since the late 1960's and I can say your perception of what it means is not the mainstream or original intent. You're entitled to your opinions on it, but a newbie or a noob is a green user or admin learning the basics of a given technology and making simple mistakes along the way, but LEARNING is a key part.

[mivo]

... but a newbie or a noob is a green user or admin learning the basics of a given technology and making simple mistakes along the way, but LEARNING is a key part.

Urban Dictionary tends to be a usable source of current, popular usage of words.

Newbie (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=newbie): A person new to a game, concept, or forum. Not to be confused with n00b, a stupid person. Newbies are just new.

Noob (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=noob): A noob or n00b is someone that lacks intelligence or common sense. Most people think that noob is a word used only in the online gaming world, but in reality it is becoming an ever popular word within the teenage society. A noob could be simply a level 100 running around shouting "WTF DO I GO!?" or someone calling someone else a noob and then getting hit with a brick.

[toupeiro]

Urban Dictionary tends to be a usable source of current, popular usage of words.

Newbie (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=newbie): A person new to a game, concept, or forum. Not to be confused with n00b, a stupid person. Newbies are just new.

Noob (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=noob): A noob or n00b is someone that lacks intelligence or common sense. Most people think that noob is a word used only in the online gaming world, but in reality it is becoming an ever popular word within the teenage society. A noob could be simply a level 100 running around shouting "WTF DO I GO!?" or someone calling someone else a noob and then getting hit with a brick.

I'm pretty sure the words were used long before urban dictionary was a dream in anyones mind. So then I think you have to be careful with the use of noob because there is certainly a generational gap of people who would use noob as newbie, to say someone is new, not an idiot, and be squarely accurate to the original use of the word noob, derived from newbie. I'm not old, but I'm certainly not a teenager anymore...

[Grenage]

I didn't think anyone took urban dictionary seriously, you can find just about any word means anything there. Example, noob also refers to new people on that site.

[toupeiro]

I didn't think anyone took urban dictionary seriously, you can find just about any word means anything there. Example, noob also refers to new people on that site.

Urban Dictionary, I don't take all too seriously, but I do think its a good way to gauge the popular usage of a word, whether its being represented as it was intended to originally or not. Slang is always open to interpretation.

[VastOne]

Urban Dictionary tends to be a usable source of current, popular usage of words.

Newbie (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=newbie): A person new to a game, concept, or forum. Not to be confused with n00b, a stupid person. Newbies are just new.

Noob (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=noob): A noob or n00b is someone that lacks intelligence or common sense. Most people think that noob is a word used only in the online gaming world, but in reality it is becoming an ever popular word within the teenage society. A noob could be simply a level 100 running around shouting "WTF DO I GO!?" or someone calling someone else a noob and then getting hit with a brick.

I have understood it exactly as this in my 25+ years in the tech industry...

My 13 year old son also explains it as Noob being just that (not noob-y) and when I said that newbie was a positive thing he told me I did not understand noob....in the Game wars he is on (XBOX blah blah blah) Noob is bad and newbie is a known rookie.... And I then corrected him on the correct syntax of noob vs newbie....and that cleared us up....I think....

[pricetech]

It's all relative, like aunts and uncles.

<snip>

Seriously, there will always be those who know more and those who know less. I'm an old guy to most of the guys in my department but still younger than other folks I work with.

Congrats on your progress.

[forrestcupp]

Git! ;)

You burst that bubble jolly quick! And I was just enjoying it ...


Oli.

Sorry. I didn't intend to burst your bubble.

Linus Torvalds is the king of Linux kernel programming. But I'll bet if he attempted to create a 3D game engine from scratch, he'd be a noob because his specialty is kernel programming.

We will all always be noobs in one area or another.

But I was serious when I said good job for your accomplishments. It means you're becoming a little more advanced. ;)

[t0p]

when you stop learning.

But we never stop learning. Even gurus.


the day one stopped using desktop environment i think one goes out of n00bness.

There's nothing n00by about using a GUI. You use the tool that suits the job. Sometimes copy/paste and clickery are appropriate, sometimes it makes more sense to use the command line.

[RiceMonster]

But we never stop learning. Even gurus.

I think that was the point.

[Greg]

To officially be a non-noob you must get non-noob 3.0 certified.

I laughed :)

[Skripka]

To officially be a non-noob you must get non-noob 3.0 certified.

The FIRST rule about Fight Club....

[jbrown96]

Sorry. I didn't intend to burst your bubble.

Linus Torvalds is the king of Linux kernel programming. But I'll bet if he attempted to create a 3D game engine from scratch, he'd be a noob because his specialty is kernel programming.

We will all always be noobs in one area or another.

But I was serious when I said good job for your accomplishments. It means you're becoming a little more advanced. ;)

I doubt this. He created git in under a month. It's arguably the best CVS available, and he did it from scratch very quickly. I understand what you are saying, but I doubt Linus could be called a noob at anything related to computers. It's like saying Lebron James would be a noob at football; pretty sure he would run circles around 99.9% of the population.

I don't think noob is derogatory. I like the way it sounds, and it's much easier to say (one syllable) than newbie, so that's what I use. I don't get upset at names people call me, but I understand that some people do.

I'd say you quit being a noob when you can listen to an arbitrary problem and at least know what needs to be fixed. It's all about how much you practice your Linux-Fu.

[NoaHall]

Who is Lebron James?

[nothingspecial]

It`s all relative.

My wife has been using linux as long as I have. She doesn`t know how to open a terminal.

I, on the otherhand, don`t know how to use pidgin.

[forrestcupp]

I doubt this. He created git in under a month. It's arguably the best CVS available, and he did it from scratch very quickly. I understand what you are saying, but I doubt Linus could be called a noob at anything related to computers. It's like saying Lebron James would be a noob at football; pretty sure he would run circles around 99.9% of the population.

I agree that Torvalds could probably finish a 3D game engine a lot quicker than I could, but programming something like git isn't that different than what he already had experience with in the kernel.

A 3D game engine is a completely different thing that takes a completely different skill set. There is a lot of advanced math and physics involved in creating an engine. You use different kinds of math and logic when creating things like a kernel or git.

[VastOne]

It`s all relative.

My wife has been using linux as long as I have. She doesn`t know how to open a terminal.

I, on the otherhand, don`t know how to use pidgin.

+1

Perfect analogy and summation of this discussion.

The sun is the same in a relative way but your older....

[Greg]

+1

Perfect analogy and summation of this discussion.

The sun is the same in a relative way but your older....

Shorter of breath, and one day closer to death.

Best Floyd song, IMO.

[juancarlospaco]

When you stop posting something like this.

When you are a Linux Jedi.

[jbrown96]

Who is Lebron James?
He's a really good basketball player (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeBron_James). First athlete I could think of.

[zcacogp]

Sorry. I didn't intend to burst your bubble.

...

But I was serious when I said good job for your accomplishments. It means you're becoming a little more advanced. ;)

No problem - and thanks for your good wishes.

When I started using Ubuntu I said it was like knowing your way around London, and then going to live in Tokyo. Everything is different - different cultures, ways of doing things, mannerisms - heck, you can't even understand the words when they are written on signs in the railway station.

I guess, to follow the analogy, I am making progress. Perhaps I have managed to take my first trip on the Tokyo underground without help, or something ...

So, maybe I'm still-slightly-noob-and-proud! :D


Oli.

[nothingspecial]

Shorter of breath, and one day closer to death.

Best Floyd song, IMO.

I`ve got a bike, you can ride it if you like.

[Keyper7]

I doubt this. He created git in under a month. It's arguably the best CVS available, and he did it from scratch very quickly. I understand what you are saying, but I doubt Linus could be called a noob at anything related to computers.

Do you even realize how wide the term "anything related to computers" is? Linus created git under a month after struggling for years with other CVS systems and learning from several experiences what a good CVS should and should not have. And for git he used tools and libraries he already knew very well (perl, bash and C).

Ask him to write a very efficient software in a field where he does not have any experience with both the theory and the libraries, and he will struggle. He will probably ask for help one time or another. The guy is a damn fine hacker, but is not a superman.

[VastOne]

Shorter of breath, and one day closer to death.

Best Floyd song, IMO.

Best song ever by anyone...IMHO

But I'm a noob so what do I know...on point!

[Greg]

Best song ever by anyone...IMHO

But I'm a noob so what do I know...on point!

Personally, my vote goes to Over the Hills and Far Away- it comes in around 7 for me.

[ComputerHermit]

I don't understand any of this the guy was talking about. How he loved Ubuntu Linux then he was bashed. Buy some people then called a newbie then some how it got in to Linus and how great of a hacker? He was or is and then about some kid that is 13 and a cool picture of the guy House.

I don't know maybe it is me I guess I am a noob or a newbie LOL what ever people good luck with that

[jbrown96]

Do you even realize how wide the term "anything related to computers" is? Linus created git under a month after struggling for years with other CVS systems and learning from several experiences what a good CVS should and should not have. And for git he used tools and libraries he already knew very well (perl, bash and C).

Ask him to write a very efficient software in a field where he does not have any experience with both the theory and the libraries, and he will struggle. He will probably ask for help one time or another. The guy is a damn fine hacker, but is not a superman.

I don't you understand programming very well. Once you know how to do it, the language and "libraries" (you just read the documentation) aren't issues at all. For languages, that's like a mechanic using a different sized wrench would be lost. For libraries, it's like working on a new model of car; just keep the manual near-by.

I'm an intermediate programmer, and I write programs in four different languages. Tell me to write in a new one, and of course, I'll have to consult some references, but I won't be asking noob questions.
My point was that Linus was doing kernel programming for many years. One day they were no longer allowed to use the CVS they used for years; Linus created a high-performance CVS (the best) in a month.

Experts get the job done, no matter which tools they use. That's not being a "superman". Noobs need help understanding the tools, and they haven't even started the project yet.

I think that last line really defines what a noob is. Noobs ask what tools to use, how to use them, and where to use them. Experts know what tools they need (or where to find them), and then use them effectively.

[Greg]

I don't you understand programming very well. Once you know how to do it, the language and "libraries" (you just read the documentation) aren't issues at all. For languages, that's like a mechanic using a different sized wrench would be lost. For libraries, it's like working on a new model of car; just keep the manual near-by.

I'm an intermediate programmer, and I write programs in four different languages. Tell me to write in a new one, and of course, I'll have to consult some references, but I won't be asking noob questions.
My point was that Linus was doing kernel programming for many years. One day they were no longer allowed to use the CVS they used for years; Linus created a high-performance CVS (the best) in a month.

Experts get the job done, no matter which tools they use. That's not being a "superman". Noobs need help understanding the tools, and they haven't even started the project yet.

I think that last line really defines what a noob is. Noobs ask what tools to use, how to use them, and where to use them. Experts know what tools they need (or where to find them), and then use them effectively.

That's overly simplified- switching paradigms (say, Java and C to Haskell to Prolog) can easily trip people up.

;;No, this wasn't necessary at all as far as your argument goes, just wanted to point it out.

[jbrown96]

That's overly simplified- switching paradigms (say, Java and C to Haskell to Prolog) can easily trip people up.

;;No, this wasn't necessary at all as far as your argument goes, just wanted to point it out.

Of course it can. I took an upper level programming languages course last year. We learned some Lisp (proper lisp, without side effects) and Prolog. It was tremendously difficult to get used to, but I'm not an expert programmer. However, I somehow don't think Linus would be tripped up. Furthermore, these aren't very popular languages. They are more academic curiosities. Only fractions of a percent of the programming market uses these non-imperative languages. The idea that they would be used for any general purpose project is ridiculous.

Again, I'm saying that experts can pick up new tools, and they either know how to use them, or can figure it out, without asking for a lot of help.

[Greg]

I'm not sure about that. I'm no expert, but it wouldn't shock me if the experts find it harder to make such a dramatic shift, because they're set in their ways already.

And don't knock FPLs. They have a lot of benefits, and Haskell in particular is picking up speed.

[jrusso2]

I think I decided when I wasn't a newbie when I didn't have to ask questions on the forum anymore. If there was something I didn't know I could look it up or figure it out.

[chris200x9]

To officially be a non-noob you must get non-noob 3.0 certified.

yes, I offer this cert, all you have to do is send me $10 and fill out a questionaire :popcorn:

[forrestcupp]

I don't you understand programming very well. Once you know how to do it, the language and "libraries" (you just read the documentation) aren't issues at all. For languages, that's like a mechanic using a different sized wrench would be lost. For libraries, it's like working on a new model of car; just keep the manual near-by.

I wasn't talking about programming with libraries; I was talking about creating the libraries. There's a big difference.

I've programmed simple GUI stuff, worked with 3D game engines, and I've programmed straight DirectX. I can tell you there is a huge difference between programming with a game engine/library and programming in straight DirectX or OpenGL. The game engines and libraries do all the hard stuff for you. When you program the low level stuff and create your own engine, you have to figure out your own physics and 3D math algorithms and wrap it all in classes that make it easy for intermediate programmers to use.

I'm not saying that it's harder than kernel development; I'm just saying that it's a totally different world. I don't have any doubt that Linus could do it and do it well if he really wanted to take the time. But since it's so different than what he's used to, and it's much more in depth than just learning a new language or library, I guarantee that he would have to brush up on some physics and 3D math as well as that kind of programming technique.

But my original point was that everyone is a noob at something. ;)

[jbrown96]

I wasn't talking about programming with libraries; I was talking about creating the libraries. There's a big difference.

I've programmed simple GUI stuff, worked with 3D game engines, and I've programmed straight DirectX. I can tell you there is a huge difference between programming with a game engine/library and programming in straight DirectX or OpenGL. The game engines and libraries do all the hard stuff for you. When you program the low level stuff and create your own engine, you have to figure out your own physics and 3D math algorithms and wrap it all in classes that make it easy for intermediate programmers to use.

I'm not saying that it's harder than kernel development; I'm just saying that it's a totally different world. I don't have any doubt that Linus could do it and do it well if he really wanted to take the time. But since it's so different than what he's used to, and it's much more in depth than just learning a new language or library, I guarantee that he would have to brush up on some physics and 3D math as well as that kind of programming technique.

But my original point was that everyone is a noob at something. ;)

OpenGL and DirectX are libraries... That's not really doing low-level programming. Linus is a computer scientist; I doubt he would have trouble with the linear algebra. That's not to say that it would be easy. I'm sure it would be a radical shift; I just sincerely doubt that he would have significant trouble with it.

My point is that a noob would first ask "what is openGL?" Then proceed to ask many related questions, then "why isn't my program working?". You would need to hold their hand the whole way, basically, doing the work for them. A non-noob would be able to figure it out on their own, without needing to ask others. They can teach themselves.

The more I think about, I am starting to think that noob and newbie are a derogatory terms. I answer a lot of noob/newbie questions on these forums; I know a noob/newbie because I almost always just type my usual generic response (like an install command) or just paste a link or section from the man page. Noobs need to RTFM! They rarely search before asking.

[phrostbyte]

When you know the answer to life, the universe, and everything.

[samh785]

when you know the answer to life, the universe, and everything.
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