What if we forked gnome!

[NoaHall]

So, with the arrival of Gnome 3 next year, a few of us are getting worried. So, here's what we do. We fork it! Any thoughts?

[Tibuda]

good luck

[HappinessNow]

Why not Spork Gnome instead?...

[CJ Master]

So, with the arrival of Gnome 3 next year, a few of us are getting worried. So, here's what we do. We fork it! Any thoughts?

I wish people would practice more patience. KDE 4.2/4.3 is brilliant. KDE 4.0? Not so much. Gnome 3.0 might suck, but if people just wait on 2.29 (or whatever the previous release) for a year I'm sure 3 will become much better.

[Giant Speck]

Why not put all the potential energy of forking the project into making the existing project better?

LAWL I HATE THIS SOFTWARE! FORK FORK FORK!

[whoop]

XFCE could be the new Gnome 2 when Gnome 3 arrives... Not really, but still...

[NoaHall]

I wish people would practice more patience. KDE 4.2/4.3 is brilliant. KDE 4.0? Not so much. Gnome 3.0 might suck, but if people just wait on 2.29 (or whatever the previous release) for a year I'm sure 3 will become much better.

It's not going the way I want it to. So I have every right to fork it ;) I don't want a weird new way of working, I want a way that works now.

[FuturePilot]

What if we didn't judge a book by its cover and give Gnome 3 a chance before tossing it out the window?

[whoop]

What if we didn't judge a book by its cover and give Gnome 3 a chance before tossing it out the window?
Allot of us are, as you speak; I'm running it now :D

[RiceMonster]

What if we didn't judge a book by its cover and give Gnome 3 a chance before tossing it out the window?

What!? You mean I should wait until it's finished before I complain!?

[NoaHall]

Allot of us are, as you speak; I'm running it now :D

No, you're using Gnome Shell. Not gnome three ;)
However, from the plans I've read, I don't like where it's heading.

Oh, and I don't like shell either.

[whoop]

No, you're using Gnome Shell. Not gnome three ;).

It's as close as you can get.
Close enough to toss it ;)

[FuturePilot]

What!? You mean I should wait until it's finished before I complain!?

I know, what an absurd idea.:roll:

[CJ Master]

It's not going the way I want it to. So I have every right to fork it ;) I don't want a weird new way of working, I want a way that works now.

Of course you have every right to fork it, I'm saying that it's a silly idea. Even if you did fork it, who would help you with it? It's a nice idea, but in reality it would just be better to stick with 2.29 until you're ready for 3.

[HappinessNow]

What!? You mean I should wait until it's finished before I complain!?


I know, what an absurd idea.:roll:Sort of like people complaining about Google Chrome OS.

We could all just use e17 or something! LOL :P

[zagz]

Gnome 3 was the idea of one individual.

[schauerlich]

I don't want a weird new way of working, I want a way that works now.

Funny, when someone says that about switching to Linux, they're "close-minded"...

[iponeverything]

Fork all you want. If you pick up enough enough like minded gnome developers to maintain the fork though a single Ubuntu release cycle -- It might survive.

[koenn]

It's not going the way I want it to. So I have every right to fork it ;) I don't want a weird new way of working, I want a way that works now.
Yes, you have every right. So if you have the resources (people, infrastructure, knowledge...) to maintain something as broad and complex as gnome, why not.

Personally, I don't see the point. Nothing changes if nothing changes - trying something new is they only way to find something better.

[click4851]

and change for the sake of change is what.....? Clearly someone/group has decided to in my words radically change the interface for gnome. If the changes are anything like gnome shell, then pardon me for not waiting till the official release is out, I don't like it (haven't even used it yet....just based on screen shots and descriptions...still don't like it) .

[FuturePilot]

I don't like it (haven't even used it yet....just based on screen shots and descriptions...still don't like it) .

Like I said, judging a book by its cover....

[koenn]

and change for the sake of change is what.....?


who said "change for the sake of change" ?
I talked about "change as an opportunity to find something new"
And if you try it and it turns out to be better than what you had before, ... So, I'll try, I'll see, and I make up my mind then.

Let me guess, you're still using MS-DOS on your PC ?

[bekind2thenoob]

Why not Spork Gnome instead?...

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... Lets do it! :)

[armageddon08]

Well...nodbody forked KDE 3. Why?

[OrangeCrate]

So, with the arrival of Gnome 3 next year, a few of us are getting worried. So, here's what we do. We fork it! Any thoughts?

Sure, why not? Keep us updated as to how your doing with it...

:popcorn:

[-grubby]

and change for the sake of change is what.....? Clearly someone/group has decided to in my words radically change the interface for gnome. If the changes are anything like gnome shell, then pardon me for not waiting till the official release is out, I don't like it (haven't even used it yet....just based on screen shots and descriptions...still don't like it) .

Yeah, I'm confused. What exactly are the reasons?

[emigrant]

i belive it is still possible to replace gnome 3 by gnome 2.* if ppl don't like it??...

[Skripka]

So, with the arrival of Gnome 3 next year, a few of us are getting worried. So, here's what we do. We fork it! Any thoughts?

It'll be like trying hold the ocean back with a broom.

[cariboo]

Gnome 3 won't be release until 10/10 at the earliest, I'd wait at least 6 months before speculating whether it will work for you or not.

[RiceMonster]

It'll be like trying hold the ocean back with a broom.

So it's no problem?

[NoaHall]

It'll be like trying hold the ocean back with a broom.

Just cause we fork it, doesn't mean we wish to replace Gnome 3. We merely want to keep Gnome as it is for us ;)

[koenn]

Just cause we fork it, doesn't mean we wish to replace Gnome 3. We merely want to keep Gnome as it is for us ;)

even if you don't develop it any further, you'd still have to maintain it, i.e. track and fix bugs and security issues, and possibly deal with feature requests from users who like your gnome better than gnome 3 but still want a feature here, something extra there, ...

[Skripka]

even if you don't develop it any further, you'd still have to maintain it, i.e. track and fix bugs and security issues, and possibly deal with feature requests from users who like your gnome better than gnome 3 but still want a feature here, something extra there, ...

Then there's that whole depends problem...

[NoaHall]

even if you don't develop it any further, you'd still have to maintain it, i.e. track and fix bugs and security issues, and possibly deal with feature requests from users who like your gnome better than gnome 3 but still want a feature here, something extra there, ...

So? I'd be happy to do that.

[Mornedhel]

So? I'd be happy to do that.

I think the point is you'll have to attract a community, because it's clearly not a one-man job, and just waiting for disgruntled Gnome 3 users to join you won't be enough.

[Skripka]

I think the point is you'll have to attract a community, because it's clearly not a one-man job, and just waiting for disgruntled Gnome 3 users to join you won't be enough.

And of those attracted, about 99% will be at best bug reports.

[Regenweald]

Based on a thread in the resolution centre, I think the OP may be trying to generate some CoC violations to report. In the best light this thread is lacking in productivity.

[NoaHall]

Based on a thread in the resolution centre, I think the OP may be trying to generate some CoC violations to report. In the best light this thread is lacking in productivity.

What on earth are you talking about? No, I'm not trying to create a problem. I'm asking people what they would think of me forking gnome. I haven't reported a single post, as there's nothing to report. I have no intention to, either. So don't accuse me with your "thinking" unless you know it's a FACT.

[gashcr]

I would better try to improve XFCE and let Gnome go his way, now THAT would be productive.

I don't know why people complain about shell, I have worked with it a few weeks (Even though I'm in KDE now ) and found it pretty cool. I'm specting something nice when it is ready. The workflow is pretty good actually. If they acomplish a good integration with something like gnome-do and zeitgeist, it would surely be the most versatile and powerfull DE around, for every platform ( Oh, and tiling capabilities, PLEASE )

[cariboo]

Please keep it civil.

[NoaHall]

Please keep it civil.

It was civil until he posted that comment.

Anyway, the first thing I would do is fix as many bugs as possible. Only after that's done will I try to start moving it forward.

[kellemes]

So, with the arrival of Gnome 3 next year, a few of us are getting worried. So, here's what we do. We fork it! Any thoughts?

You should at least know anything about developing a project like this, clearly you don't.

[NoaHall]

You should at least know anything about developing a project like this, clearly you don't.

You don't know me, nor of me. How did you come to this judgement? I'd like to know. Pulling things out the air, are you? Nice.

Of course, I have no idea how to manage a project this big, but everyone has to learn somewhere. I've managed other projects, and they've turned out great.

[Warpnow]

I think time would be better suited working on XFCE. Its an amazing project.

[rudihawk]

I think time would be better suited working on XFCE. Its an amazing project.

+1 It has become my DE of choice. I love it! :p

[click4851]

Like I said, judging a book by its cover....

...and thats my right. I'm am not bound by yours or anyone else convention about restricting judgment until I have experienced something first hand.

[RiceMonster]

...and thats my right. I'm am not bound by yours or anyone else convention about restricting judgment until I have experienced something first hand.

...and it's FuturePilot's right to comment on your way of judging things. Big deal.

[click4851]

who said "change for the sake of change" ?
I talked about "change as an opportunity to find something new"
And if you try it and it turns out to be better than what you had before, ... So, I'll try, I'll see, and I make up my mind then.

Let me guess, you're still using MS-DOS on your PC ?

no guessing read my sig, and I said "change for the sake of change", those are my words. Thats my observation of some development processses. I can tell you what I'm not using....Mandrake. Guess why?

[SuperSonic4]

Well...nodbody forked KDE 3. Why?

I believe Chakra are doing some stuff with it - there is a [kdemod-legacy]

Also I'm sick of deliberate antagonism to get an undesirable thread.

[jacobs444]

KDE would be brilliant if all the darned programs were listed more like gnome, instead of all the stupid K names.

[dragos240]

Why not Spork Gnome instead?...

Good idea!

[seeker5528]

I don't understand why you would want to fork Gnome.

Gnome stopped using Sawfish as the default window manager forever ago, but while development seems a bit stagnant at times, Sawfish still has been available and at least got the occasional update to keep it working. At the moment it seems to be maintained.

http://sawfish.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Even if the Gnome guys drop their support for Metacity as an official fallback for the many who will not be able to use Gnome Shell, doesn't mean all work on Metacity will stop and others can not step forward to maintain it.

Later, Seeker

[Mornedhel]

I don't understand why you would want to fork Gnome.

Gnome stopped using Sawfish as the default window manager forever ago, but while development seems a bit stagnant at times, Sawfish still has been available and at least got the occasional update to keep it working. At the moment it seems to be maintained.

http://sawfish.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Even if the Gnome guys drop their support for Metacity as an official fallback for the many who will not be able to use Gnome Shell, doesn't mean all work on Metacity will stop and others can not step forward to maintain it.

Later, Seeker

The difference was that you could keep using Sawfish as your window manager (I did for a while). If you try that on Gnome 3, you lose a good chunk of the new functionality.

[lykwydchykyn]

Is it really a fork if you just maintain & package the old version? People still do that for KDE 3.

[scottuss]

Clearly the code for older Gnome releases will be available when Gnome 3 is included in Ubuntu, and if, when the time comes, we don't like what we see, we can go back to an older version.

If the worst comes to the worst and there are a lot of complaints, Gnome 3 won't be the only option. I can personally guarantee that in such a case, my company will sponsor / maintain a Gnome 2.x fork. I don't think this is a major issue to worry about until we know more.

[Exodist]

So, with the arrival of Gnome 3 next year, a few of us are getting worried. So, here's what we do. We fork it! Any thoughts?
I feel you on this. But a fork with the plethora of files required for Gnome is insane. Its the only program I gave up on compiling from source on my own. Yea I could do it, but it would be hell.

IMHO Noa, our best bet would be to just contribute to XFCE as its so similar and has a few more features. Not to mention, its EASY to compile from source.

[NoaHall]

I feel you on this. But a fork with the plethora of files required for Gnome is insane. Its the only program I gave up on compiling from source on my own. Yea I could do it, but it would be hell.

IMHO Noa, our best bet would be to just contribute to XFCE as its so similar and has a few more features. Not to mention, its EASY to compile from source.

Hm.. But I just don't like XFCE. I'll have a play with it again, and if I'm still not happy, I'll stick with my current plans :)

[Exodist]

Hm.. But I just don't like XFCE. I'll have a play with it again, and if I'm still not happy, I'll stick with my current plans :)
Yea 4.6 offered many many new improvements. I am not saying its a drop in clone replacement just yet. But by the time Gnome30 is here, with the new features that are planned for XFCE, XFCE will be more like Gnome20 then.

[Ric_NYC]

I have a feeling that KDE and Gnome are trying to force people to use Xfce.

[andras artois]

If you actually plan on forking GNOME then I think you should wait for the release of 3 and then fork it. Make the most of all the new work done to it and take in the direction you feel it should go rather than redoing work that was done to get it to 3.

[NoaHall]

If you actually plan on forking GNOME then I think you should wait for the release of 3 and then fork it. Make the most of all the new work done to it and take in the direction you feel it should go rather than redoing work that was done to get it to 3.

I don't want 3. That's why I'm forking the 2.* version. Anyway, I'm only planning to do it if 3 ends up as bad *for me* as I think it will. And then I will choose between XFCE and gnome 2.*

[RiceMonster]

kde would be brilliant if all the darned programs were listed more like gnome, instead of all the stupid k names.

k > g

[squilookle]

I agree with the replies about waiting to see where Gnome 3 goes before writing off, and that KDE 4.0 was worth it for the KDE we have now... but if you really, really don't like where Gnome is heading, you could always run xfce and make it look like gnome... wouldn't be identical but I reckon you can get it pretty close...

[seeker5528]

The difference was that you could keep using Sawfish as your window manager (I did for a while). If you try that on Gnome 3, you lose a good chunk of the new functionality.

If you stick with Metacity and whatever panel you prefer to pair with that, the majority of new features you lose are the same things people are complaining about.

On the other hand, while not really something I consider a loss since I am just as likely to have it disabled anyway, if Nautilus drops the capability to draw the desktop, that will give other reasons for people to complain, if they stick with Metacity and Metacity does not provide some of the desktop functions that Nautilus currently provides. Don't know what the plans for Nautilus are.

Compiz will continue to be an option as well, for those who like it, at least I have not seen anything indicating otherwise.

Later, Seeker

[cariboo]

What is it that you don't like about Gnome 3? About the only thing they've shown us is gnome-shell (http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell) and a lot of talk about zeitgeist (http://live.gnome.org/GnomeZeitgeist), there are a lot of details missing, it's pretty hard to form an opinion.

[HappinessNow]

Well...nodbody forked KDE 3. Why?...probably because KDE is fully customizable?


Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... Lets do it! :)


Good idea!

If people stopped forking things and starting sporking the world would be a better place overall! :p

Anyway, you can't spoon a fork but you can spoon a spork! <3 <3 (every notice there is no <3 smiley, where is the love?)

[the yawner]

Isn't Gnome 3 already a spork of Gnome 2?

[sudoer541]

whats sporking?

[Praxicoide]

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7956/culteryjpgo.jpg

http://www.savagechickens.com/images/chickenspork.jpg

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/forks_and_spoons.png

[bonfire89]

Why not put all the potential energy of forking the project into making the existing project better?

LAWL I HATE THIS SOFTWARE! FORK FORK FORK!


I often feel that the linux community spreads itself too thin. Choice is great, but also reduces resources to make a refined product....

ie... I am quite sure there are far too many distros.

[seeker5528]

I often feel that the linux community spreads itself too thin. Choice is great, but also reduces resources to make a refined product....

It's open source, people will do what they will.

It's better to have somebody being productive on a fork, than non-productive because of personality conflicts, difference of opinion over the direction things are going, not getting to work on the parts of a project they want to, etc...

Later, Seeker

[hoppipolla]

I think this could be idea of the decade if enough people get behind it!

I do worry about the Gnome project, I think it tends to move too slow and then when it DOES move as it has recently, it seems insubstantial (at least so far) and erratic.

A well-organized, funded and supported Gnome fork could be a good idea :)

[Rainstride]

all this talk about forking is stupid, the fact of the matter is not a damn one (including myself) of you knows what gnome 3 will be like when it is officially released. on top of that no one seems to realise that gnome is not some project that can't be changed once it goes a certain direction.

chances are what will happen is this:

1. gnome 3 gets released

2. users complain about real problems (difficulty being productive, concept flaws, so on )

3. gnome polls user feedback data about the new interface to get some hard data on how to proceed on there current path.

4. gnome alters gnome shell over several releases to deal with user concerns while at the same time moving in the same direction.

5. people stop complaining.


people where the same way with kde4 it sucked really bad at first and had usability issues. they fixed them, and now there are tons of "zomg i luv kde4" threads.

[Praxicoide]

Gnome spork > Xfce > Gnome fork

The end.

[madnessjack]

What's wrong with Gnome 2? Bunch of moaners :P

[speedwell68]

http://images.clipartof.com/thumbnails/44185.jpg

[click4851]

or possibly....

1. Gnome 3 is released

2. I move to Xubuntu, large groups move to Kubuntu and Xubuntu.

[hoppipolla]

or possibly....

1. Gnome 3 is released

2. I move to Xubuntu, large groups move to Kubuntu and Xubuntu.

This is what will probably happen... unless the Gnome project comes out with something either breath-taking or outstandingly... perfected and polished. There are different ways inwhich they could divert attention away from KDE and XFCE, but none involve shoving Gnome Shell onto an ageing backend and wondering why everyone is jumping ship!

As I've said a few times, I hope they have big plans for GTK and Nautilus, as well as a new design for Gnome Shell :)

[Ric_NYC]

Attention...Attention....


We have enough problems with PulseAudio, Xorg, Grub2... etc.



Time to stop this "forking" insanity!

[Skripka]

Attention...Attention....


We have enough problems with PulseAudio, Xorg, Xsplash... etc.



Time to stop this "forking" insanity!

What do you mean "we"?

[Ric_NYC]

What do you mean "we"?


We means a lot of people.

Take a look at the forum.

[Skripka]

We means a lot of people.

Take a look at the forum.

-PA issues originated from a shoddy implementation by Ubuntu...that was just inexcusable by all accounts. Most testers seem to have known it was broken before release-and Ubuntu went full-steam ahead anyway.

-Xorg seems to work fine, Ubuntu users never see the prototypical patches which cause havoc....such as the Fedora patch for Intel users to solve crashing....that caused X crashing on Intel and Nvidia adapters.

-I thought *buntu was using uSplash...though I'd heard about Plymouth, I think that might also be an Ubuntu kernel patching thing. Plymouth works fine elsewhere with KMS. Including Fedora of course, I've read of Archers getting it working too-without much hassle.


In all honesty with the issues you mentioned...Ubuntu is already swamped with too many bug reporters/reports, and nowhere near enough help anyway....and judging by how cute some of the posts in this thread have been--I doubt many if any are able to fix or help fix any of these issues. No one serious about forking Gnome in this thread seems openly cognizant about what a massive endeavor it is they're contemplating.

[murderslastcrow]

Eh. Gnome is under a lot of pressure to evolve into something new, just like KDE. Especially since it's the default for Ubuntu, people are piling on the criticism.

You can use Gnome applets in Xfce, and Xfce has nice themes, is compatible with compiz, etc. Seriously, if Gnome gets all that crazy and becomes uncomfortable to use, I'll just use Xubuntu and forget about it. In fact, why aren't I using it now? *contemplates* Is Gnome really all that much more customizable?

[Hwæt]

Why not put all the potential energy of forking the project into making the existing project better?

I wish more people would think like that.

[Crunchy the Headcrab]

I like Gnome. It behaves like it should in a modern OS, which is more than I can say about a number of the others (not naming names). I'm sure the next iteration of Gnome will continue to impress me, and if it doesn't there are always alternatives.

Although I predict that a fork would be a dismal failure, I wish you luck with whatever it is that you decide to do. Happy travels. :D

[hoppipolla]

Why not put all the potential energy of forking the project into making the existing project better?

LAWL I HATE THIS SOFTWARE! FORK FORK FORK!

Because people don't like the direction it's going. I think it's worth waiting to see more of what they have planned for Gnome 3 though :)

Who knows, it could be quite good by the time it's out! :)

[seeker5528]

What's wrong with Gnome 2? Bunch of moaners :P

The initial driving force behind doing a Gnome 3 was to get rid of stuff in the libraries that was:

A: Becoming a pain to maintain, in particular stuff that has not really been in common use for a while.

B: Having to maintain backward compatibility with some of that older stuff was limiting some of the development of the newer stuff.

After that was talked about for a while and there started to be some activity to make it happen, then you had other people putting the idea out there that it would be a mistake to release Gnome 3 without changing the way the desktop works.

But where the KDE devs created something that would allow them to do a wider range of desktop related things, then built a desktop out of that, that still feels reasonably familiar, the Gnome devs didn't do that and Gnome shell seems more like a cosmetic change that actually reduces what can be done and to me more like it was designed for a touch screen device than your desktop/laptop machine. Time will tell.

Later, Seeker

[t0p]

There's always a lot of fuss when something changes in computerland and users who liked the original something get all upset that their beloved something is going do disappear. Look at all the moaning and groaning that ensued when KDE changed. Look at the fuss that's kicking off because Ubuntu may be changing the splash screen in future.

We all need to accept that nothing stays the same forever. In a dynamic universe it is the nature of things to change. We may miss that which has disappeared, but this is mostly sentimental nostalgia. In a year or so, most of the moaning minnies will be using Gnome 3.x and their sadness at the passing of gnome 2.x will be just a faint vibration in the background radiation.

[Sin@Sin-Sacrifice]

Fork? Sure... but I like spooning with Gnome.

[bonfire89]

It's better to have somebody being productive on a fork, than non-productive because of personality conflicts, difference of opinion over the direction things are going, not getting to work on the parts of a project they want to, etc...

woa... awesome point. that could change my position.

though, it would have to be studied which is worse. Something I am not going to do... unless perhaps I become some sort of project manager or something... which is actually the kind of the plan... haha


thesis? haha

[cariboo]

There's always a lot of fuss when something changes in computerland and users who liked the original something get all upset that their beloved something is going do disappear. Look at all the moaning and groaning that ensued when KDE changed. Look at the fuss that's kicking off because Ubuntu may be changing the splash screen in future.

We all need to accept that nothing stays the same forever. In a dynamic universe it is the nature of things to change. We may miss that which has disappeared, but this is mostly sentimental nostalgia. In a year or so, most of the moaning minnies will be using Gnome 3.x and their sadness at the passing of gnome 2.x will be just a faint vibration in the background radiation.

+1 I couldn't have said it better myself.

[23meg]

It would be a good but painful learning experience that would cost you lots of time, nerves and reputation. You'd learn from the instant flurry of reactions, probably in chronological order

that if your main problem is with GNOME Shell, it has an extensions system, which lets you modify everything it does on the fly through JavaScript and CSS, without even needing to recompile it


that forking a project without engaging in proper diplomacy is a bad idea that will discourage potential contributors from joining your fork, and that just because forks are technically and legally possible does not mean that they are a custom that people resort to at will


that maintaining a fork of a project as big and comprehensive as GNOME is a mammoth task, that you'll instantly fail at


that traditionally, forking has been a last resort in free software, and there are much better ways of disagreeing with the policies or direction of a project while still benefiting from its work, such as maintaining a compatible branch or patch set, or implementing your desired functionality with plugins.

Basically, you'd learn through experience pretty much the same things you could learn by reading this (http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/621/542).