Politics area

[gn2]

Time and again threads are closed due to their political nature.
Is it time for a politics discussion area to be created, or should we continue with the politics ban?

[toupeiro]

I say give it an area. Too often the lines get blurred when politics begin to effect technology. Not only that, I think its absurd to have a community advocating freedom of code but will not allow the practice of freedom of expression about something as commonly shared as politics. Sure, politics can get heated, but the CoC should be about conduct first, and content second. Politics is not pornography for example.

[clanky]

There was one, it was called the backyard, it got closed.

[Bachstelze]

There used to be one, and it got so nasty that we had to remove it. So we're obviously not creating one now.

[toupeiro]

yeah... looking back never benefitted anyone. Not CRAY, not SGI. Looking back is just an overall negative thing to do, nobody can ever learn from their mistakes.


/blatentsarcasm

[KiwiNZ]

I would love to see an area like you are suggesting , but history here has shown that it will get out of control very fast.

A small minority will ruin it for all and the affect tends to spread into the other forum areas.

This has shown to happen since day one on here .

[Bachstelze]

yeah... looking back never benefitted anyone. Not CRAY, not SGI. Looking back is just an overall negative thing to do, nobody can ever learn from their mistakes.

Thanks for the trolling, but whether or not closing it was a mistake remains to be seen.

[the8thstar]

Go to http://www.americasdebate.com if you want a good website to debate politics. Personally I am against politics on Ubuntu forums.

[SuperSonic4]

I'd like to see politics here but there is still too much immaturity. Perhaps you could make it an 18+ forum in line with the common voting age

[toupeiro]

Thanks for the trolling, but whether or not closing it was a mistake remains to be seen.

That wasn't trolling, that was being honest, although sarcastic. Personally, I think banning an entire form of discussion which effects the lives of everybody is a much higher form of trolling if you want to get right into it...

[emigrant]

I would love to see an area like you are suggesting , but history here has shown that it will get out of control very fast.

A small minority will ruin it for all and the affect tends to spread into the other forum areas.

This has shown to happen since day one on here .

i'll be in that minority :popcorn::p

[KiwiNZ]

That wasn't trolling, that was being honest. Personally, I think banning an entire form of discussion which effects the lives of everybody is a much higher form of trolling if you want to get right into it...

If we ignore history we are doomed to repeat it .
If we create a political dicussion area we will be doing just that , reference ( the back yard)

[clanky]

I'd like to see politics here but there is still too much immaturity. Perhaps you could make it an 18+ forum in line with the common voting age

Yeah cause us adults are all so much more mature, right? :p

[toupeiro]

If we ignore history we are doomed to repeat it .
If we create a political dicussion area we will be doing just that , reference ( the back yard)

I respect where you are coming from, KiwiNZ, but the back yard is where the mods collectively decided to stick political discussions, it was not a "political discussions" forum. There was no real framework around it, and people who didn't really seek out political discussions but were more into off-topic discussions randomly inserted themselves here and there because it was right in front of them. A real political discussions forum could be so much more than what the backyard was..

[NoaHall]

I can imagine there would be a lot of attacks on people then. I, for one, would attack those with racist ideology and so on. And the mods wouldn't be able to stop those with the racist ideology, because it is their "democratic" right to have them. Not that any democratic country IS democratic.

[KiwiNZ]

Yeah cause us adults are all so much more mature, right? :p

true , Maturity is not fixed with time ;)

[Dakra]

Yeah cause us adults are all so much more mature, right?

Of course, we see it everyday in our marvellous societies, our fabulous laws, our generous and respectful mentalities...

[chucky chuckaluck]

If we ignore history we are doomed to repeat it .

...in summer school, according to buffy summers.

i don't see politics coming back in here. i don't think uf wants to risk a lot of hostility showing up as it appears to be the public face of ubuntu. with success, unfortunately, usually comes a great reduction in topics allowed. it's just the way things are.

[gn2]

Go to http://www.americasdebate.com if you want a good website to debate politics.

A bit limited in that it's only about US politics, but the point is a good one, there are other options elsewhere for discussing politics.

[Irihapeti]

People who want a political forum are free to set one up elsewhere.

I wish them well - no way would I want the thankless task of moderating such a forum.

[toupeiro]

...in summer school, according to buffy summers.

i don't see politics coming back in here. i don't think uf wants to risk a lot of hostility showing up as it appears to be the public face of ubuntu.

I can agree with this..

.. but I don't know who buffy summers is.

[dragos240]

No. Politics cause trouble, flaming, etc.

[benj1]

i don't think a dedicated politics area is needed, more free reign to discuss politics related to free software would be nice tho.

[toupeiro]

i don't think a dedicated politics area is needed, more free reign to discuss politics related to free software would be nice tho.

+1, or surronding politics that affect technology in general.

And by surrounding politics that affect technology, I don't mean RMS's opinion on war crime immunity. (as I said in that thread, I was treading lightly.)

[SuperSonic4]

Yeah cause us adults are all so much more mature, right? :p

Yes, it is idealistic to think that there are more than just a few exceptions.

Besides it doesn't matter- suffrage isn't linked to intelligence

[RiceMonster]

No. Politics cause trouble, flaming, etc.

I agree.

[jwbrase]

I think the usefulness of having a politics area really depends alot on the nature of a forum community. I've seen some communities where people can handle politics very, very well, and some where political discussions turn into flamewars which then start feuds on other parts of the site.

I've even seen one community where political discussions acquired a tendency to get downright nasty, to the point that there was at one point a temporary ban on political/religious discussions, but when the original forum died of hardware issues and the community moved to another forum, things got alot more civil. We even have alot of our old firebrands, but the worst offenders all seem to have dropped away when the old forum died. I've only seen one over-the-top trollish character in the community since, and I've not seen him in a while. Not sure if he went his own way, or if he got banned while I wasn't looking.

[Tipped OuT]

I say give it an area. Too often the lines get blurred when politics begin to effect technology. Not only that, I think its absurd to have a community advocating freedom of code but will not allow the practice of freedom of expression about something as commonly shared as politics. Sure, politics can get heated, but the CoC should be about conduct first, and content second. Politics is not pornography for example.
No, no, no, no, no.

I would love to see an area like you are suggesting , but history here has shown that it will get out of control very fast.

A small minority will ruin it for all and the affect tends to spread into the other forum areas.

This has shown to happen since day one on here .
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[koenn]

+1, or surronding politics that affect technology in general.

And by surrounding politics that affect technology, I don't mean RMS's opinion on war crime immunity. (as I said in that thread, I was treading lightly.)
I'm leaning towards this - or a separate subforum if that has any practical use, eg. make moderation easier.

oh, and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffy_Summers

[ibuclaw]

Time and again threads are closed due to their political nature.
Is it time for a politics discussion area to be created, or should we continue with the politics ban?

I'd rather not have another Pink Pony forum, thank you.

[toupeiro]

No, no, no, no, no.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Constructive?

[Tipped OuT]

Constructive?

You bet.

[toupeiro]

You bet.

Maybe if you can explain your position, otherwise its a lot of cutting and pasting or repetitious typing. :)

[SuperSonic4]

No, no, no, no, no.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HKjlXpb-k1I/SuH5mFmALUI/AAAAAAAAJYY/VUdOCW5qLdw/s320/churchill_dog.jpg

[Tipped OuT]

Maybe if you can explain your position, otherwise its a lot of cutting and pasting or repetitious typing. :)

I don't need to, KiwiNZ summed it up already. That's why my post appeared to be nonconstructive.

[toupeiro]

I'd rather not have another Pink Pony forum, thank you.

OMGPP != a politics forum

[Tipped OuT]

OMGPP != a politics forum

lol

[lehkost]

While unfettered political discussion is something that would not be suitable, in my opinion, I think that there are certain topics that may be considered political, like government treatment of copyright issues and net neutrality, that are not so overtly political or decisive, and where many on the forums would find some common ground.

While Ubuntu is not, and never should be, a political project, I think that for the community, as individuals, it would be helpful for to keep informed and active on fronts where representatives of, let's say, Microsoft and Apple in particular, may be attempting to influence public policy to the detriment of others who benefit from open source projects and such.

So I vote Yes, but with the caveat that it should only relate to those issues, and certainly not to anything partisan or personal.

[dragos240]

Yay! Another 'backyard' (OMG PInK PONEEZ) forum!

[matthew]

Feel free to speak your mind and vote as you like. This decision, however, has already been made and the Forum Council has no intention of opening the forums up to political discussion again. We experimented with that for a very long time (and I was a strong proponent initially) and the experiment proved impossible to maintain while also fulfilling our main objective of providing the best tech support and friendly community for Ubuntu users.

There is not going to be a politics forum on our site. Sorry.

[ticopelp]

So I vote Yes, but with the caveat that it should only relate to those issues, and certainly not to anything partisan or personal.

An admirable sentiment, but unrealistic in practice.

[chucky chuckaluck]

.. but I don't know who buffy summers is.

my hero...

http://www.screencaps.org/SciFi/Buffy/BuffyTheVampireSlayer.jpg

[KiwiNZ]

Politics is a passionate subject , and rightly so as it touches each and everyone of us in a personal way. This is a moderated forum, and as soon as political discussion gets moderated people call foul, and again there can be good reason to do so .

This is why we avoid it here. There are many political forums out there that are not moderated where one is free to voice ones views, these are where such subjects should be handled.

[Sealbhach]

If you want to talk politics, go to a politics website and troll away. That's all politics is anyway, one group trolling another group.

The bitterness and bile from any politics forum here is bound to spill over and poison the community.

Dixi.

.

[Sin@Sin-Sacrifice]

Hahaha... I wasn't here for the "backyard" but I could imagine what went on. I'm strong in political debate and love it but this isn't the place. Check out my sig.

[The Toxic Mite]

Also, to add to this debate;

I agree with the idea of a mininum age limit, but also people should have at least 1000 posts to use the forum too (< minimum age + < minimum posts = read-only forum)

EDIT: In similar principle to the logic gates used in microelectronics, I have produced a truth table detailing the requirements of using the suggested forum:

Number of Posts | Age....|Can make/edit posts
>=1000.............| >=18 .| Yes
>=1000.............| <18 ...| No
<1000................| >=18 | No
<1000................| <18 ..| No

Sorry if it looks crap but it's the best I can do

[Bezmotivnik]

should we continue with the politics ban?
Yes. After watching political discussions on the Internet since 1984 or so, I can say with some authority that people who habitually engage in them are almost exclusively too ignorant and bigoted to make the exercise anything but a waste of bandwidth, and they are the last to realize it.

[mivo]

It is a Linux/IT forum, not a general purpose forum, or one dedicated to political topics. There are plenty political forums and newsgroups out there.

Plus I would spend even more time here than I already do. ;)

[dragos240]

I could argue that it is indeed a general purpous forum. The help section is dedicated to Linux help stuff, but the Cafe is for discussing everything except religion and politics, of course the topics must abide by the rules.

[koenn]

That's all politics is anyway, one group trolling another group.
Politics is also about how a society organizes itself. It's about the goals, values and ideals of a society and how these are constraint by real life. The way you deal with the tension between how things are and how things should be, also tells something about who you are, as an person, as a community, or as a society ...

It's interesting.

[mivo]

Well, the Café is what other boards call the "off topic" section. Besides religion and politics, most topics are okay here. But the forum (the whole thing) is a Linux support platform, not a general forum. (I agree though that the Cáfe is a main reason why the forum is so popular, which also benefits the support sections.)

[The Real Dave]

I'd like to see politics here but there is still too much immaturity. Perhaps you could make it an 18+ forum in line with the common voting age

Maturity is not proportional to age...


I agree, a politics forum would get out of hand way too fast. Nice idea, but in practice, not so great.

[earthpigg]

here ya go, folks:

http://www.utopiaforums.com/boardforum?id=politics

the site itself is about a year old, but the community goes back a decade. as of about a year ago when that site came into being, zero corporate or company sponsorship/backing/liability. its run from a server in some dudes basement. no one really knows his real name.

'no child porn' and 'no spam flooding' are about the only rules that exist.

fairly diverse crowd. mostly people from the EU and US, but there are 2 Russians and a Chinese dude. and about a half dozen Linux users.


edit: also, there is zero registration process and complete anonymity (unless the admin decides to look up and then ban your IP range for flooding). just make a post/thread and fill in whatever username/password combination you wish.

[lisati]

Yeah cause us adults are all so much more mature, right? :p
Which is we enjoy this thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1334150


People who want a political forum are free to set one up elsewhere.
I wish them well - no way would I want the thankless task of moderating such a forum.
Exactly. A big "thumbs up" to the mods here - they already have enough on their plate, coping with the occasions when we regular forum users don't see eye to eye with them.

Well, the Café is what other boards call the "off topic" section. Besides religion and politics, most topics are okay here. But the forum (the whole thing) is a Linux support platform, not a general forum. (I agree though that the Cáfe is a main reason why the forum is so popular, which also benefits the support sections.)
+1: I already spend too much time in the Café which might better be spent in the support forums, either learning something new or having a go at helping someone.

[toupeiro]

+1, or surronding politics that affect technology in general.

And by surrounding politics that affect technology, I don't mean RMS's opinion on war crime immunity. (as I said in that thread, I was treading lightly.)

Mods:

Would you agree to support more threads of this nature?

What I have seen in the past is threads being closed because they reference politics, but they referenced politics as it pertains directly to technology.

I think that would be a fair compromise on the matter, and something that could be outlet right here in the community cafe. After all, politics in technology absolutely do extend beyond free and open source issues, but their influence could still impact free and open source issues. Why can't "Discussions on religion and politics are not allowed, except for politics directly related to free and open source issues." be changed to "Discussions on religion and politics are not allowed, except for politics directly applicable to technology and computer sciences discussed within these forums."

[samh785]

That wasn't trolling, that was being honest, although sarcastic. Personally, I think banning an entire form of discussion which effects the lives of everybody is a much higher form of trolling if you want to get right into it...
Fortunately, if a person has access to the Ubuntu forums, then they also have access to other forums across the internet that discuss politics. I don't think that we should have a politics board on a linux distro site anymore than we should have a scented candle discussion board.

[KiwiNZ]

Mods:

Would you agree to support more threads of this nature?

What I have seen in the past is threads being closed because they reference politics, but they referenced politics as it pertains directly to technology.

I think that would be a fair compromise on the matter, and something that could be outlet right here in the community cafe. After all, politics in technology absolutely do extend beyond free and open source issues, but their influence could still impact free and open source issues. Why can't "Discussions on religion and politics are not allowed, except for politics directly related to free and open source issues." be changed to "Discussions on religion and politics are not allowed, except for politics directly applicable technology and computer sciences discussed within these forums."

The banner above states this " Discussions on religion and politics are not allowed, except for politics directly related to free and open source issues"

There is a thread in the cafe relating to the Acta Treaty rounds of meetings http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1333516 , very political and does have an affect on open source. I have no problem with that being here .

However I am only one six Forum Council members so I cannot make a unilateral decision .

The rule as outlined in the banner is open to wide interpretation and leaves staff open to problems if it is perceived that they have got it wrong and that is why some say a blanket prohibition is better.

[toupeiro]

Fortunately, if a person has access to the Ubuntu forums, then they also have access to other forums across the internet that discuss politics. I don't think that we should have a politics board on a linux distro site anymore than we should have a scented candle discussion board.

yea yea, battle lost,I'm over that. There have been plenty of good reasons why which I agree with. read ahead please. :)

[wilee-nilee]

Time and again threads are closed due to their political nature.
Is it time for a politics discussion area to be created, or should we continue with the politics ban?

I am not going to bother with reading the thread but this will never happen. Politics is chocked full of dichotomies hardly ever a compromise by anybody and is ego driven. ;)

[toupeiro]

The banner above states this " Discussions on religion and politics are not allowed, except for politics directly related to free and open source issues"

There is a thread in the cafe relating to the Acta Treaty rounds of meetings http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1333516 , very political and does have an affect on open source. I have no problem with that being here .

However I am only one six Forum Council members so I cannot make a unilateral decision .

The rule as outlined in the banner is open to wide interpretation and leaves staff open to problems if it is perceived that they have got it wrong and that is why some say a blanket prohibition is better.

Fair enough. But, I think saying its acceptable for political topics surrounding technology to be a constructive prohibition, and I think it actually leaves less to be interpreted. However, obviously, I have no decision making power at all, but I like to think that I still have the opportunity to make suggestions to those with the decision making power if I truly believe it is in the benefit of others, like me, participating on these forums.. :)

Out of curiosity, is there an official venue which the community can partake in to raise issues like this for moderation review, or is this the best way? I think a lot of value can be added perhaps by ever so slightly unclenching the fist in this situation. I agree with you, KiwiNZ, I have no issue with that topic either, but based on the interpretation of others, what would be that threads fate, and if it is to close it, is that truly warranted and in the best interests of the community?

[ZankerH]

No.

The "politics area" of forums that are non-political by nature most often turns into a bleating post of the masses quoting bumper stickers. It's not a free discussion area, it's a place where people go to laugh at people with "politically incorrect" opinions. This is where the inherent intolerance of any community with a strong majority shows, and that's the last thing we need. We've got enough bad karma in here without bringing RL politics and religion into it.