Stressed out newbies - are they too rude?

[NoaHall]

It seems a lot of newbies are getting stressed out/naturally rude. I propose that we don't help these people, not until they speak in a more mature manner.

[Psumi]

We've all seen/heard of it already... Like yesterday.

What about this, by you?

[Simon17]

I purpose that we don't help these people, not until they speak in a more mature manner.

I propose we chastise you until you learn to spell.

[NoaHall]

What about this, by you?

What? The community cafe != the rest of the site.

[Psumi]

What? The community cafe != the rest of the site.

People ask for support even in The Community Cafe. Especially since the Other OS forums were removed.

[NoaHall]

People ask for support even in The Community Cafe. Especially since the Other OS forums were removed.

It wasn't a support question. And they shouldn't post support questions in the cafe.

[Psumi]

It wasn't a support question. And they shouldn't post support questions in the cafe.

And if the support question doesn't pertain to art, Wine, Gaming, etc. and does not pertain to Ubuntu, and the user does not wish to register on yet another forum? What then?

I would rather not shun away a potential linux user because he or she asked on the wrong message board for support.

[wojox]

And if the support question doesn't pertain to art, Wine, Gaming, etc. and does not pertain to Ubuntu, and the user does not wish to register on yet another forum? What then?

I would rather not shun away a potential linux user because he or she asked on the wrong message board for support.

It's not about what they ask, but how they go about asking.

[Psumi]

It's not about what they ask, but how they go about asking.

Yes, I know. I'm just being a little over-the-top because NoaHall is also rude at times.

[wojox]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1331848

[NoaHall]

Yes, I know. I'm just being a little over-the-top because NoaHall is also rude at times.

I'm only rude when people need to learn. Check for previous threads before posting another. I also don't mean to be rude, and I'm no-where near as rude as the people in question.

[Johnsie]

I believe in free speech... As long that they act within the confines of the law of the country they live in then they should be able to say what they want.

If you're offended by what people say on the Internet then you should either grow a spine or just learn to ignore it. For some people that is a great way to take out day to day stress and it might actully be a healthy thing for them to do, to realease some of that bottled up emotion. Introverts bottle things up alot and the Internet allows them to unbottle without really affecting anyone personally. People should be allowed to criticise and whine. Nobody has to like the same things as you or I and nobody has to be overly friendly.

[Irihapeti]

I think that they would get better help if they worded their requests differently.

But I don't think that two wrongs make a right. I've seen rude posts get rude or somewhat childish replies, and I don't feel comfortable with that. I doubt that it's going to help the OPs to learn, either. More likely, they just get defensive.

Maybe a better approach would be just not to answer if you aren't in a good frame of mind. Let someone who's feeling a bit more laid back deal with it.

[NoaHall]

I believe in free speech... As long that they act within the confines of the law of the country they live in then they should be able to say what they want.

If you're offended by what people say on the Internet then you should either grow a spine or just learn to ignore it. People should be allowed to criticise and whine. Nobody has to like the same things as you or I and nobody has to be overly friendly.

I too believe in free speech, but also the free choice to choose not to help them. I'm not offended by what they say, I just don't think I should help someone who has no manners, when you're doing them a favour.

[aysiu]

It seems a lot of newbies are getting stressed out/naturally rude. I propose that we don't help these people, not until they speak in a more mature manner.
I wrote about this before:
A Plea to the Community: Don't Reward Bad Behavior (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=634322)

I think it's a great idea. If someone asks for help nicely, offer help. If someone wants to bash Ubuntu or the volunteer community and not ask for help, don't help that person.

[slumbergod]

Worse are super geeks who have no patience and get quite nasty...luckily Ubuntu Forums is actually pretty good. It is almost the only forum I post on now because I just get so tired of geek tossers.

Newbies are welcome and if someone is annoyed with them perhaps they shouldn't bother posting replies!

[dullard]

Posting something like


can you post the output of "cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf"

isn't really much help to an obvious newbie though, and possibly just as rude in a very smug kind of way IMO.

"Helpful" replies like that put me off linux some years ago and it's only the mainly mature approach of these forums that keep me smiling after having the misfortune of a Vista machine...

Perhaps sometimes the complainers are just as guilty as the ones they're complaining about...

:-)

[SteveHillier]

By the time the stressed out newbie gets round to posting on this or any other forum they are way beyond being kind to anyone.
Can we not all remember a time when despite everything we did nothing seemed to work.
When I started on Linux, I had been working in a DOS environment - CLI does not faze me (these days I just prefer not having to use it). I had programmed in C so knew Unix commands were a) case sensitive and b) very different. That does not mean I did not get frustrated when applying years of experience got me nowhere.
If your only previous experience is in Windows then you are leaping into a black hole when you come to Linux.
I for one am not prone to using strong Anglo Saxon on a day to day basis, so I am unlikely to use it in a forum but others are different and less likely to say 'Oh Bother, and oh Blow, and oh Hang spring cleaning', (literary reference to Wind in the Willows). I am not suggesting that excuses them just that I would forgive them.
Would I help them, probably if I could but gently reminding them that we are not a help desk, we are all foot soldiers trying the best we can (and I think quite often newbies think we are a help desk with a duty to sort out their problem for them).

[SteveHillier]

Newbies are welcome and if someone is annoyed with them perhaps they shouldn't bother posting replies!

Echo that!

[aysiu]

There are appropriate and inappropriate times to post CLI instructions for new users. (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-gui-v-cli-debate/)

If a CLI instruction is warranted, it should actually come with instructions.

I tend to do more
Can you paste this command into the terminal (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/terminal):
cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf and then paste the output back here? than
Can you post the output of cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf? for the following reasons: Using the word paste reassures them that they don't have to retype cryptic commands and risk misspelling something. If they don't know what "the terminal" is, they can click on that link and have an easy guide to how to open one. Isolating the code from the post prevents the user from thinking the question mark or quotation mark is part of what needs to be posted. "Pasting" is something new users understand as a practical action. "Posting," for all they know, could be some cryptic terminal command or technical term. If there are no instructions to paste, the new user is far more likely to mess up the command and mistake an l for a 1 or use x11 instead of X11.

[dullard]

Well said aysiu :-)


THIS is helpful advice. (and why this forum and Ubuntu can only go from strength to strength).

[Ric_NYC]

Ubuntu is the Paradise for newbies...
Get used to it!

[Shibblet]

It seems a lot of newbies are getting stressed out/naturally rude. I propose that we don't help these people, not until they speak in a more mature manner.

I think you've never worked in customer service before. ;)

An angry customer just wants to vent, and have someone listen. After allowing that person to get their frustration out, then you can ask what it is they would like you to do.

When you say things like this...

I know the answer to your "problem", but I'm not going to help you due to the way you spoke. Please address your problems in more decent manner in the future.
You have a returned item on your hands. And that customer will NEVER come back.

[aysiu]

I think you've never worked in customer service before. ;)

An angry customer just wants to vent, and have someone listen. After allowing that person to get their frustration out, then you can ask what it is they would like you to do.
These people aren't customers, and we aren't employed by them directly or indirectly.

This is a community of volunteers who help each other out. Both helper and helpee are obligated to be courteous to one another.

No one is entitled to help. No one is allowed to be rude.

P.S. I do work in customer service, and I treat the "clients" well no matter how rude they are. Totally different context.

[lisati]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1331848
Is it just me, or do others sometimes have to make a conscious effort to get their mind out of the gutter before even trying to respond to threads about root privileges? :) (This is a family friendly forum, so I'll leave it at that....)

I think you've never worked in customer service before. ;)

An angry customer just wants to vent, and have someone listen. After allowing that person to get their frustration out, then you can ask what it is they would like you to do.
Nicely said, this sounds like a good way to defuse a potentially explosive situation.

[Shibblet]

These people aren't customers, and we aren't employed by them directly or indirectly.
I would say regardless of any monetary exchange, a community helps a community. IF you have a frustrated person in the community, isn't it our duty to help them? Alleviate their frustration?


This is a community of volunteers who help each other out. Both helper and helpee are obligated to be courteous to one another.
Ah, yes, the number one conundrum. How do you assist someone who just wants to call the product bad, and hate it. I've found that 90% of the time, they just don't understand. But being rude back at the first rude party only escalates the situation. You have to be polite, regardless of the amount of sarcasm, frustration, or general rude behavior.


No one is entitled to help. No one is allowed to be rude.
Entitled, no. But I personally believe that if you have the ability to help, you also have the duty. Regardless of the situation.


P.S. I do work in customer service, and I treat the "clients" well no matter how rude they are. Totally different context.
So, you've had your fair share of angry and frustrated customers. What do you do at work to quell the situation and assist the customers?

[The Funkbomb]

The people that really bother me are the ones that don't take any time to solve their own problems. Before I come to the board with a problem, I try to solve it myself. One exception is when it's something that will affect my security, like SSH. If it's something local, I don't mind messing around with it until I get it right. Security stuff though, no. I don't mess around with that.

I had a post in the FF&H: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1323010

I still think it should be implemented. The rudeness that bothers me the most are people who think the time taken by other people is not valuable. While I wish I could help people more, my skill level is pretty much stuck at problems I solved on my computer. I can't really help with hardware I'm not familiar with.

You see posts where it's like a huge guessing game.

Person with problem: My wifi doesn't work
Helper: What wifi card? What is the problem exactly? What have you tried?

It's like trying to pull teeth with some people. Anyone who at least tried would know how to post useful information that helps the people trying to help you.

People, like the link posted above, don't deserve anything and I would ban them in humorous ways.

[Irihapeti]

It seems like we have two choices. One is to respond to a poster in a way to help them to calm down. The other is not to respond at all. I can see both of the options making sense in different circumstances.

What doesn't sit well, though, is responding in an irritated manner. Things will probably only escalate then. Let's give that option a miss.

[Shibblet]

It seems like we have two choices. One is to respond to a poster in a way to help them to calm down. The other is not to respond at all. I can see both of the options making sense in different circumstances.

Yep. Cut through the bull-dung, by ignoring the rant. Sometimes all you have to say is...

Hey JimBob(The Poster), looks like you're having trouble with your ATI Drivers. I have found the best solution by adding the ATI Repository I found at launchpad.net. Try doing this...


What doesn't sit well, though, is responding in an irritated manner. Things will probably only escalate then. Let's give that option a miss.

Responding to JimBob like this is bad...

You don't like Ubuntu, then go back to Windows, we don't flippin' care. Just stop complaining about it.
It's not Ubuntu, it's your ATI Card. You should have bought Nvidia.
Learn how to download drivers the "right" way.
I don't know what your problem is, they work fine on mine.


These aren't solutions. These are reasons. And people with problems mostly don't care what the reasons are, so long as there are ways around it. Remember the Windows mentality is the hardest thing to break.

[Irihapeti]

I always grit my teeth when I see "it's not Ubuntu's fault, it's [manufacturer's] fault." If I've got a problem, the last thing I want to hear is whose fault it is. What good does that do? I just want to know what to do about it, and if there's nothing that can be done, well, I'd rather just hear that.

I've been watching a few threads here and there, and I notice that sometimes people just aren't interested in finding a solution. They want to justify their anger instead. I think that those ones are best ignored.

[wilee-nilee]

I propose we chastise you until you learn to spell.

+1 And don't make me dig through your posts to find the rudeness in your communications. ;)

[wilee-nilee]

I'm only rude when people need to learn. Check for previous threads before posting another. I also don't mean to be rude, and I'm no-where near as rude as the people in question.

It is nice to know that the world of all our realities is in the hands of your perceptions. This just gives such a warm fuzzy feeling.

[KiwiNZ]

The COC says it

" Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness."

[aysiu]

I would say regardless of any monetary exchange, a community helps a community. IF you have a frustrated person in the community, isn't it our duty to help them? Alleviate their frustration? Well, not every user can be helped. So if I have to choose anyway, I'd rather choose to help the users who ask nicely.


Ah, yes, the number one conundrum. How do you assist someone who just wants to call the product bad, and hate it. I've found that 90% of the time, they just don't understand. But being rude back at the first rude party only escalates the situation. You have to be polite, regardless of the amount of sarcasm, frustration, or general rude behavior. I don't espouse rude responses. I think rants should be read and then not responded to. When the person has had a chance to rant or vent and then sees that garners no responses, she can then post a thread asking for help and then get help.


Entitled, no. But I personally believe that if you have the ability to help, you also have the duty. Regardless of the situation. As I said before, there are too many people to help and too many threads to answer. I may post a lot here but I am not a Ubuntu god. I can help only a limited number of people, so I choose to have that limited number be the people who ask for help nicely.


So, you've had your fair share of angry and frustrated customers. What do you do at work to quell the situation and assist the customers? It's a totally different situation, as I tried to tell you before. First of all, I actually have the resources to deal with every single potential customer, so it's not a matter of "Do I ignore this one and help this one or vice versa?" I have to interact with everyone, rude or not. I just try to listen to what their concerns are and be practical about it. What can I do to help? What can't I do? If they have a beef with policy, I ask my boss if there can be exceptions made and if not, I tell them politely that we are holding to that policy. Some of them are fine with that. Others stay pissed off.

Secondly, those people actually want to be customers or at least try to be. Only 1 out of a 1000 actually calls me up just to tell me how much they do not want to be customers and don't actually want anything but to spew negativity and not actually get help of any kind. As you know, such unproductive rants are quite common on the forums (i.e., not necessarily asking for help, rudely or not).

Whether in a proper customer service situation or a volunteer online community, I never suggest being rude in response to rudeness. If you have time to answer only a limited number of threads, respond to the ones that ask for help nicely. If you feel compelled to respond rudely to any thread, just don't respond at all.