Could Canonical get Windows refunds from OEMs for us?

[dado112233]

hi,

I was wondering is it possible that you people working at canonical to give us (users) a service of "stepping over".

The idea is that when a user buys a laptop or desktop or anything with Windows OS (or any propitiatory OS) and decides to remove Windows and install ubuntu you guys take over the "Microsoft tax" collection. User gives you machine number, windows license number and the rest of the information and you chase up Microsoft and manufacturer for return of the license money.

I would love to be able to do this and of course pay to you guys at canonical a certain percentage from license repayment (20%+?).

What is the community s opinion on this?


regards,
dado

[Grenage]

Due to the way manufacturer's get and distribute licences, it cannot be done.

[zagz]

The licence refund has to be done by the Laptop/PC owner.

[snowpine]

I have a better idea... how about the people working at Canonical fix some bugs and develop new Ubuntu features, instead of joining your little anti-Microsoft crusade?

Don't buy a computer with Windows if you don't want Windows. There is no such thing as a "Microsoft tax" (Ubuntu-preinstalled computers are not, generally speaking, any less expensive) and I personally would not give a "Windows refund" if I were a hardware vendor.

"Waiter, the gentleman at the next table needs a refund on the chicken noodle soup he ordered; as a vegetarian, he is appalled that your soup comes with chicken pre-installed, instead of allowing customers to assemble their own soup ingredients at the table. He would complain himself, but is lazy, so he's paying me 20% to complain for him. ps I own the tofu factory down the street."

[wojox]

Agree with snowpine, don't buy a computer with MS installed.

[NoaHall]

Agree with snowpine, don't buy a computer with MS installed.

Don't buy a computer. Build one.

[dado112233]

I have a better idea... how about the people working at Canonical fix some bugs and develop new Ubuntu features, instead of joining your little anti-Microsoft crusade?

Don't buy a computer with Windows if you don't want Windows. There is no such thing as a "Microsoft tax" (Ubuntu-preinstalled computers are not, generally speaking, any less expensive) and I personally would not give a "Windows refund" if I were a hardware vendor.


but i dont want to buy any OS bundled with my laptop and i do not want to have to chase stupid Acer or Asus or Dell to give me the money back for something i do not want to use.
if i want to get a PC without windows i have very limited and poor choice so why should i do that?

btw. the same goes for mobile phones, internet tablets...etc.

[wojox]

Don't buy a computer. Build one.

Even better.

[dado112233]

Agree with snowpine, don't buy a computer with MS installed.


and get what? a smart toaster? selection of laptops without windows is limited.
and the fact is i still want to get Dells customer support i just dont want to pay for windows.

[Zoot7]

There's no way Canonical will ever engage in something like chasing Microsoft and trying to wrestle money off them.

As has been said above...
If you don't want Windows, don't buy a pre-installed windows machine.
If it's a desktop; build it yourself - that purges Microsoft from the picture. If it's a laptop; buy one from a vendor who sells them with either no OS or a linux variant.

However, people have used a loophole in the EULA to get a refund for the "Windows Tax" from the OEM.
http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/59381
Although good luck with trying to get a refund that way.

[dado112233]

Due to the way manufacturer's get and distribute licences, it cannot be done.


i m sure that with my signature i can authorize a party to do certain things on my behalf.

[dado112233]

There's no way Canonical will ever engage in something like chasing Microsoft and trying to wrestle money off them.

As has been said above...
If you don't want Windows, don't buy a pre-installed windows machine.
If it's a desktop; build it yourself - that purges Microsoft from the picture. If it's a laptop; buy one from a vendor who sells them with either no OS or a linux variant.

However, people have used a loophole in the EULA to get a refund for the "Windows Tax" from the OEM.
http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/59381
Although good luck with trying to get a refund that way.


why should i build a PC? i dont want that, i n not hardware guy and i dont want to be.

and i repeat i do want Dells or Acers customers support.

[snowpine]

but i dont want to buy any OS bundled with my laptop and i do not want to have to chase stupid Acer or Asus or Dell to give me the money back for something i do not want to use.
if i want to get a PC without windows i have very limited and poor choice so why should i do that?

If you're looking for a nice computer with Ubuntu pre-installed (or a barebones system with no OS), just ask the forums for advice. There are many options (Dell, System 76, etc.).

On the other hand, if the computer you want is cheaper with Windows installed, you should be grateful to Microsoft for subsidizing your purchase.

From a capitalist perspective, the only way more manufacturers will offer Ubuntu PCs is if more people buy them. Right now, they offer Window pre-installed because that's what people buy.

Life is short. Ask for what you want.

[dado112233]

If you're looking for a nice computer with Ubuntu pre-installed (or a barebones system with no OS), just ask for advice. There are many options (Dell, System 76, etc.).

On the other hand, if the computer you want is cheaper with Windows installed, you should be grateful to Microsoft for subsidizing your purchase.


in the Netherlands? i dont think so...but if there are i would like to know.

microsoft gives an OEM discount on windows copy so i do not get anything from them.

[dado112233]

If you're looking for a nice computer with Ubuntu pre-installed (or a barebones system with no OS), just ask the forums for advice. There are many options (Dell, System 76, etc.).

On the other hand, if the computer you want is cheaper with Windows installed, you should be grateful to Microsoft for subsidizing your purchase.

From a capitalist perspective, the only way more manufacturers will offer Ubuntu PCs is if more people buy them. Right now, they offer Window pre-installed because that's what people buy.


because there is no other option. For example, i go to the media markt and guess how many PCs there do not have windows........ maybe 10 and these are Mac OS, which is the same sh**t only different packaging.

[snowpine]

I understand your point, BUT you are basically saying you don't care enough about the issue to do something about it yourself. You want to pay someone else 20% to fight your battles for you. If you are truly outraged, hire a lawyer or lobby your government to investigate Microsoft's business practices in your country. Who knows, you might have a case...

[cascade9]

If you're looking for a nice computer with Ubuntu pre-installed (or a barebones system with no OS), just ask the forums for advice. There are many options (Dell, System 76, etc.).

On the other hand, if the computer you want is cheaper with Windows installed, you should be grateful to Microsoft for subsidizing your purchase.

From a capitalist perspective, the only way more manufacturers will offer Ubuntu PCs is if more people buy them. Right now, they offer Window pre-installed because that's what people buy.

Life is short. Ask for what you want.

LMAO. Subsidise? You really think that microsoft is paying manus to put windows on computers? If redmond did that, they would hardly be profitable. Or it would be at least anti-competitive.

I think that the real reson why computers cost more with a different OS, or no OS, is because the manus have dropped prices on the windows boxes, to be more competitive against the other manus. They dont with no OS/other OS boxes because of limited market- "you want x, not z, well, you can pay more for it"

All the places that sell parts here offer a build service. Its normaly in the order of $50-$100, but its normally a fair bit cheaper to buy from parts. There are 'white box' laptops as well, you can build your own. Pretty hard to find them though.


in the Netherlands? i dont think so...but if there are i would like to know.

microsoft gives an OEM discount on windows copy so i do not get anything from them.

http://www.mingos.nl/
http://www.jw-systems.nl/

Sometimes, you just have to look. I'm sure there will be others around that sell computers with pre-installed linux in holland. To be honest, I'm not sure about the prices, but you can always just get somewhere to build a system if its much more expensive to buy something with linux pre-installed.

Edit- checked the building prices here, its $50 for the system build, and another $50 to install windows from one of the stores I go to, and $70 flat from a different store.

[Excedio]

The fact of the matter here is that this is not even the correct place to ask what it is that you would like. The forum is not owned or run by Canonical Ltd.

If you have something that you would like to ask them, I suggest going here (http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/contactus) and asking.

[dado112233]

I understand your point, BUT you are basically saying you don't care enough about the issue to do something about it yourself. You want to pay someone else 20% to fight your battles for you. If you are truly outraged, hire a lawyer or lobby your government to investigate Microsoft's business practices in your country. Who knows, you might have a case...

i m too small to do that. basically i did get refund from Dell but not from Acer.
if a company that actually means something in the IT world decides to do this it will have much better effect.

[dado112233]

LMAO. Subsidise? You really think that microsoft is paying manus to put windows on computers? If redmond did that, they would hardly be profitable. Or it would be at least anti-competitive.

I think that the real reson why computers cost more with a different OS, or no OS, is because the manus have dropped prices on the windows boxes, to be more competitive against the other manus. They dont with no OS/other OS boxes because of limited market- "you want x, not z, well, you can pay more for it"

All the places that sell parts here offer a build service. Its normaly in the order of $50-$100, but its normally a fair bit cheaper to buy from parts. There are 'white box' laptops as well, you can build your own. Pretty hard to find them though.



http://www.mingos.nl/
http://www.jw-systems.nl/

Sometimes, you just have to look. I'm sure there will be others around that sell computers with pre-installed linux in holland. To be honest, I'm not sure about the prices, but you can always just get somewhere to build a system if its much more expensive to buy something with linux pre-installed.

Edit- checked the building prices here, its $50 for the system build, and another $50 to install windows from one of the stores I go to, and $70 flat from a different store.


thanks for the links..but i dont want to buy a mingos or jw system....

[dado112233]

The fact of the matter here is that this is not even the correct place to ask what it is that you would like. The forum is not owned or run by Canonical Ltd.

If you have something that you would like to ask them, I suggest going here (http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/contactus) and asking.


it is just a question..this is a "The Community Chat area is for lighthearted and enjoyable discussions, like you might find around a water cooler at work."

[Zoot7]

why should i build a PC? i dont want that, i n not hardware guy and i dont want to be.
Sadly it's one of the only good ways to avoid having to pay for Windows when you want a new system.

[Excedio]

hi,

I was wondering is it possible that you people working at canonical to give us (users) a service of "stepping over".

You were saying?

[aysiu]

If Canonical actually had any kind of bargaining power with major OEMs (and I don't think Canonical does... what kind of leverage would it have?), wouldn't it just make more sense for Canonical to ask OEMs to preinstall Ubuntu instead of trying to get OEMs to refund Windows licenses on behalf of users?

I also don't understand why Canonical should do that for you. If you want a Windows refund, you do all the paperwork and the phone calls and letters, and going to court if necessary. Why should Canonical do that?

The Windows refund is not worth the effort. Really.

Here are your options if you don't want Windows: Buy Windows preinstalled and just suck up the license and install Linux over it. Buy Windows preinstalled and spend many hours over the course of weeks or even months trying to get a small refund back from the OEM who sold you the computer. In the end, you may get around US$35 back for Windows... or you may get nothing. Build your own computer and install Linux on that. A lot of people do this for desktops, not so much for laptops. Find a vendor that sells Linux preinstalled. They exist but not in great numbers. Usually they will be slightly more expensive than Windows computers from the major OEMs (economies of scale). Buy a Mac and install Linux on it (once again, more expensive than buying a Windows computer, unless you go high-end). Those are your choices.

There is no choice of I don't want to be bothered trying to get a refund for the Windows license. Some other company will do that for me. Thanks, Canonical!

Either buy it with Windows or put in the time or money to avoid Windows.

This is about as silly as someone not wanting to queue up and then asking if there's a company that would donate a person to just stand in line for her so she doesn't have to waste her own time waiting to get to the front of the line.

[phrostbyte]

I have a better idea... how about the people working at Canonical fix some bugs and develop new Ubuntu features, instead of joining your little anti-Microsoft crusade?

Don't buy a computer with Windows if you don't want Windows. There is no such thing as a "Microsoft tax" (Ubuntu-preinstalled computers are not, generally speaking, any less expensive) and I personally would not give a "Windows refund" if I were a hardware vendor.

"Waiter, the gentleman at the next table needs a refund on the chicken noodle soup he ordered; as a vegetarian, he is appalled that your soup comes with chicken pre-installed, instead of allowing customers to assemble their own soup ingredients at the table. He would complain himself, but is lazy, so he's paying me 20% to complain for him. ps I own the tofu factory down the street."

You have to let the OEM no that you do not want Windows. Some OEMs don't even offer Linux (most?). The way Dell started preinstalling Ubuntu is a tens of thousands of people complained about their lack of Linux PCs on their website. That's seriously how it happened.

[ibuclaw]

The bitter truth about OEM licenses: http://nc10linux.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/windows-refund/



Whether Samsung is obligated to provide a refund or not:

======

Regarding this issue, I would like to explain that Microsoft has contract with third party computer providers. That third party pay for the copyright of Windows XP and they can customize this operating system and sell it to their own customers. Hence, this is a new system other than the Windows XP copy released by Microsoft.

Legally, this is a new product from the third party manufacturer. Hence, they have their own rights to price the product. As a result, they have their own rights to judge if the product can be refunded.

In most cases, the preinstalled OS are installed as a Free product to the end users. Hence, it may not be refunded by the computer manufacturer.

And since the Manufacturer "Customised" the installed copy, Microsoft can claim no ownership of it.

So, dealing with Microsoft is barking up the wrong tree - sorry mate. Nice try at a brainstorm though.

Regards
Iain

[Warpnow]

It would make more sense to buy licenses up from nix users and resell them to system builders and oems. If a hundred people here sold their windows xp license for $10, and then that person could resell those licenses to system builders and oems for $15, they could save the OEMS/builders money, as $15 is far below the cost new, make money, and give money to nix users.

[phrostbyte]

On the other hand, if the computer you want is cheaper with Windows installed, you should be grateful to Microsoft for subsidizing your purchase.


Microsoft made $18 billion last year on Windows sales, mostly preinstalled on PCs. Yes, OEMs have to pay Microsoft to bundle Windows. You might be thinking of the shovelware that is preinstalled with Windows, OEMs get paid for that, but it's as much as people make it out to be.

[Bachstelze]

Could Canonical do my laundry and dishes for me?

[lykwydchykyn]

It would make more sense to buy licenses up from nix users and resell them to system builders and oems. If a hundred people here sold their windows xp license for $10, and then that person could resell those licenses to system builders and oems for $15, they could save the OEMS/builders money, as $15 is far below the cost new, make money, and give money to nix users.

I'm pretty sure OEM licenses cannot be resold or transferred.

I could see something like this becoming a major disaster very quickly.

[phrostbyte]

The bitter truth about OEM licenses: http://nc10linux.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/windows-refund/


And since the Manufacturer "Customised" the installed copy, Microsoft can claim no ownership of it.

So, dealing with Microsoft is barking up the wrong tree - sorry mate. Nice try at a brainstorm though.

Regards
Iain

Since they claim no ownership, Microsoft isn't going to care if I put it up on BitTorrent?

I think that's a bogus excuse, and it's wrong because there plenty of evidence people are able to get refunds for Windows. A company is not going to write checks out of people if they don't have to.

[ibuclaw]

Could Canonical do my laundry and dishes?

I think the French government do that, but now we are loosing sight of the topic. ;)

[phrostbyte]

I think this would be a good program but IMO Canonical should get 100% of the refund. Even with them getting 100% it might not be economically viable for Canonical. It's more about the message that people should be able to pick what OS they want and not have an OEM bundle one for them.

[lykwydchykyn]

I think this would be a good program but IMO Canonical should get 100% of the refund.

Even with 100% of the refund, I doubt it would recoup the time investment, and it certainly wouldn't recoup the bad will generated with OEMs.

Aysiu is right; it's best for Canonical to use leverage with OEMs to work out support and preinstallation arrangements.

[phrostbyte]

Maybe this would be a better program to be run by an attorney then Canonical even. A law firm will always have a much easier time with matters like this, and they can assign their low paid paralegals on it, so it might be even economically viable if it's done at a high scale.

[ibuclaw]

Since they claim no ownership, Microsoft isn't going to care if I put it up on BitTorrent?

How does promoting illegal activity prove your point?

When I suggest ownership, I am referring to whom the refunds come from.

The agreement between Microsoft and OEMs is as such that asking Microsoft for a refunds results in "Ask your manufacturer". From there, asking your manufacturer for a refund doesn't get you any further, as stated in the blog (and by aiysu), most OEM Builds release Windows as a Free Product as part of the EULA with the OEM. (OK, £35 if you are lucky).

This in no way gives you freedom to distribute, as you are still under the strict license agreement of Windows, Microsoft, but also of the Manufacturer too.

[phrostbyte]

At least in the US, lawyers will defend ticket offenses with as little as $60-70 in payment. Since this is close to what you'd get from a OEM payout (and seriously OEM might pay more just because it's a lawyer), I think it could be a viable thing.

[phrostbyte]

How does promoting illegal activity prove your point?

When I suggest ownership, I am referring to whom the refunds come from.

The agreement between Microsoft and OEMs is as such that asking Microsoft for a refunds results in "Ask your manufacturer". From there, asking your manufacturer for a refund doesn't get you any further, as stated in the blog (and by aiysu), most OEM Builds release Windows as a Free Product as part of the EULA with the OEM. (OK, £35 if you are lucky).

That's why I'm starting to think a lawyer. A lawyer doesn't say "hmm okay that sounds nice", he would say "pay us our $50 refund and another $20,000 for wasting our time, or we will sue you for anti-competitive behavior and get an injunction that prohibits you from selling computers anymore". Of course they might never win a case like that, but even the threat is enough to get most rational companies to pay up $20,050 then risk their entire company to the opinion of an American jury. :D

It's worth noting that at least Microsoft loses almost every anti-trust lawsuit that has even been taken to court. They ESPECIALLY don't take risks with anti-trust.

[lykwydchykyn]

Maybe this would be a better program to be run by an attorney then Canonical even. A law firm will always have a much easier time with matters like this, and they can assign their low paid paralegals on it, so it might be even economically viable if it's done at a high scale.

Consider the number of people running Linux on the desktop
Consider the fraction of these running Ubuntu
Consider the fraction of these that do not intend to use Windows EVER AGAIN.
Consider the fraction of these that actually bought a computer from a major OEM.
Consider the fraction of these who would want to participate in such a program and not invent some conspiracy theory about it.
Consider the possibility that not all refunds might be given.
Consider that at most it'd probably be under $50/PC.

You really think the resulting monies would be worthwhile for a lawyer with a team of paralegals?

Or that people would be interested in doing this just to put money in said lawyer's pockets?

[juancarlospaco]

Nah, do it yourself, be a man...

[phrostbyte]

Consider the number of people running Linux on the desktop
Consider the fraction of these running Ubuntu
Consider the fraction of these that do not intend to use Windows EVER AGAIN.
Consider the fraction of these that actually bought a computer from a major OEM.
Consider the fraction of these who would want to participate in such a program and not invent some conspiracy theory about it.
Consider the possibility that not all refunds might be given.
Consider that at most it'd probably be under $50/PC.

You really think the resulting monies would be worthwhile for a lawyer with a team of paralegals?

Or that people would be interested in doing this just to put money in said lawyer's pockets?

It's just a thought. I'm thinking a good lawyer can pull off much more then $50 / pc because it' wouldn't just be a refund but a settlement for possible anti-competitive behavior involved. That would be worth tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars, most of which tend to find it's way to the lawyer's pockets. Lawyer gets rich, but we could possibly have an injunction that prohibits Microsoft from entering secret deals with OEMs. If that actually happens I would call it a win-win for everyone involved. It's a far stretch but there are lawyers out there willing to take a risk like that.

[mivo]

selection of laptops without windows is limited. and the fact is i still want to get Dells customer support i just dont want to pay for windows.

So you want the cake and also eat it. You are part of a minority, and made the deliberate decision to be, so there is a price to pay. If Dell doesn't offer the laptop you want with Linux or with no OS, then you have two choices: Buy it with Windows or look for another laptop.

If you don't want Windows, sell the license to someone (this should be possible Europe, at least it is here in Germany) or contact Dell for a refund. You can't expect Canonical to invest time or money to do the work you are unwilling to do, or because you want THIS ONE laptop and are unwilling to look for an alternative.

Canonical already invests money to employ 200 people to provide you with a free OS. How much did you pay for it? Nothing? But you want Canonical to do even more for you?

It's a little peculiar. :)

[Dragonbite]

hi,

I was wondering is it possible that you people working at canonical to give us (users) a service of "stepping over".

The idea is that when a user buys a laptop or desktop or anything with Windows OS (or any propitiatory OS) and decides to remove Windows and install ubuntu you guys take over the "Microsoft tax" collection. User gives you machine number, windows license number and the rest of the information and you chase up Microsoft and manufacturer for return of the license money.

I would love to be able to do this and of course pay to you guys at canonical a certain percentage from license repayment (20%+?).

What is the community s opinion on this?


regards,
dado
If Canonical took over this process, I would expect them to receive 100% of what they manage to get. Even then, that is only if they got something streamline to make it easy for them to do it so they see an actual benefit (not just more people using Ubuntu, but $$$ benefit).

[Warpnow]

It's just a thought. I'm thinking a good lawyer can pull off much more then $50 / pc because it' wouldn't just be a refund but a settlement for possible anti-competitive behavior involved. That would be worth tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars, most of which tend to find it's way to the lawyer's pockets. Lawyer gets rich, but we could possibly have an injunction that prohibits Microsoft from entering secret deals with OEMs. If that actually happens I would call it a win-win for everyone involved. It's a far stretch but there are lawyers out there willing to take a risk like that.

Its standard for lawyers to take 1/3 of a settlement.

[ibuclaw]

That's why I'm starting to think a lawyer. A lawyer doesn't say "hmm okay that sounds nice", he would say "pay us our $50 refund and another $20,000 for wasting our time, or we will sue you for anti-competitive behavior and get an injunction that prohibits you from selling computers anymore". Of course they might never win a case like that, but even the threat is enough to get most rational companies to pay up $20,050 then risk their entire company to the opinion of an American jury. :D

It's worth noting that at least Microsoft loses almost every anti-trust lawsuit that has even been taken to court. They ESPECIALLY don't take risks with anti-trust.

That probably works just fine in your head, but how is refusing a refund "anti-competitive behaviour" ?

In a scenario, lets say I buy a game from HMV, and they refuse a refund, I go GameStation, failing that - some other Game reseller.

What point along that chain is HMV being "anti-competitive" ?

[KiwiNZ]

It is the buyers responsibility to negotiate the terms of trade before the purchase not after the fact .

If you cannot obtain favourable terms , move on.

[dBuster]

So the original poster was looking for along the lines of say a Dell laptop without windows but rather linux of some flavor.

Well just go to Dell's website and in the upper right corner in the search field type in the words "NOTEBOOK LINUX (http://search.dell.com/results.aspx?s=gen&c=us&l=en&cs=&k=notebook+linux&cat=all&x=0&y=0)" and hit enter. You will get quite a few Dell options that are not just windows. Such as UBUNTU!

[mivo]

Well just go to Dell's website and in the upper right corner in the search field type in the words "NOTEBOOK LINUX (http://search.dell.com/results.aspx?s=gen&c=us&l=en&cs=&k=notebook+linux&cat=all&x=0&y=0)" and hit enter. You will get quite a few Dell options that are not just windows. Such as UBUNTU!

They tend to cost more than the same models with Windows.

[snowpine]

They tend to cost more than the same models with Windows.

Canonical can use their money from helping users get Windows refunds from OEMs to offer Ubuntu at a lower price, thereby making it competitive with Windows.

[aysiu]

They tend to cost more than the same models with Windows.
Maybe when Canonical starts paying Dell to plaster Dell Recommends Ubuntu Linux all over its website, then we'll start seeing the Ubuntu models cheaper than the Windows ones.

[cariboo]

You will never see the cost of a computer with Ubuntu installed at a lower price than the same system with Windows installed. All the OEM's are paid to install crapware on their Windows computers. The only way the price of a computer with Ubuntu pre-installed will come down, is if they start installing the same type of crapware.

[mivo]

That was my point. :) Unless someone wants to send an ideological message to Dell, and pay for it, buying a Windows computer is the better deal than going with a machine that comes with Linux pre-installed. You can just wipe Windows or even sell the license (not everywhere).

Well, in case of laptops anyway. For desktops, it's not hard to find offers without any OS installed, build it or have someone build it.

[aysiu]

That was my point. :) Unless someone wants to send an ideological message to Dell, and pay for it, buying a Windows computer is the better deal than going with a machine that comes with Linux pre-installed. You can just wipe Windows or even sell the license (not everywhere).

Well, in case of laptops anyway. For desktops, it's not hard to find offers without any OS installed, build it or have someone build it.
Right now you're limited in choice. So you can embrace the short-term benefit of saving a little bit of money by buying Windows or you can shoot for the long-term benefit of spending a little more money to encourage OEMs to offer more options so that others can have a real option to choose between Linux and Windows preinstalled.

I'm not a programmer or a philanthropist. One of the few things I can do to help Linux is vote with my wallet. I don't want an OEM saying "We tried offering Linux but people just keep buying Windows" because of something I did. Buying Linux preinstalled is my way of sending a real message (not a stupid online petition or other meaningless act) to OEMs that we Linux users do care about what the preinstalled options are.

[mivo]

Well, I agree, and I have been buying commercial Linux games even if they weren't exactly of my preferred genre (but interesting enough to spend a few nights with), and I frequently buy Linux books. I have even purchased Ubuntu merchandise (love the stress balls).

But if I were to buy a laptop from a Dell or another large-scale vendor, I'd probably go with the Windows options. Two reasons: Price and compatibility. The latter being more crucial here. My netbook, for example, isn't 100% supported by any distro I have tried so far. Something always doesn't work, varying between hibernate/suspend, mic, wireless, LEDs. It came with XP and that works.

Laptops are generally more difficult when it comes to Linux, even between distros or releases of the same distro. So getting a Windows license with it offers some "security", not just for the time being, but also for the future (the Dell laptops come with 8.10, and I have seen posts from people whose laptops experience troubles in 9.10 even though they worked before).

[norm7446]

Why don't you, go into a computer store that sells the item you want and ask them how much a copy of Windows cost's. Then ask them to deduct this price from the PC or Laptop you want to buy as you have no need of a Windows License, as you are not going to run windows of the machine.

YEAH, then you wake up and smell the coffee. At the min Microsoft has 265 Billion behind Windows 7 to push it onto hardware. Canonical has ?.

Do the math, is not hard...

Ground roots support at our level, is the only way UP. As every PC or Laptop the you put UBUNTU onto, or convert a friend with UBUNTU is in reality a customer lost Microsoft or Apple.

[Dragonbite]

I'm glad I get my systems 2nd hand, usually the responsible party either keeps the hard drive for themselves (so I get to buy a new one to replace it) or they wipe off the hard drive.

I usually feel kinda guilty wiping out Windows because it is still a usable system, and what if I need it some day.

If it doesn't have Windows on it in the first place, there's no guilt and I merrily install Linux on it. :)

[Maheriano]

a) You misunderstand the definition of OEM. That only refers to the separate boxed copies of Windows you buy off the shelf, it is not the preinstalled operating systems on computers you buy.

b) This already happens. Microsoft takes payment from other third party software like AOL and other stupid software I can't think of right now that gets packaged with Windows on a preinstalled computer. This offsets the price of the operating system so you pay a whopping $0 for the Windows license with the machine. So therefore if you don't install it, you get your refund for $0 and you're set.

[norm7446]

This already happens. Microsoft takes payment from other third party software like AOL and other stupid software I can't think of right now that gets packaged with Windows on a preinstalled computer. This offsets the price of the operating system so you pay a whopping $0 for the Windows license with the machine. So therefore if you don't install it, you get your refund for $0 and you're set.

If this was the case, then why does, say, an Asus EEEPC with Linux on it not cost the same as one with XP on it.........

When in actual fact it cost's much more. It still has the same OEM style Windows License

[snowpine]

If this was the case, then why does, say, an Asus EEEPC with Linux on it not cost the same as one with XP on it.........

When in actual fact it cost's much more. It still has the same OEM style Windows License

Asus stopped selling Linux netbooks (at least in the US). It's a chicken-and-egg guess whether they stopped selling Linux because consumers preferred Windows, or the other way around.

My Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu pre-installed was very affordable; cheaper than any Windows-equipped Dell for sure.

[phrostbyte]

Maybe when Canonical starts paying Dell to plaster Dell Recommends Ubuntu Linux all over its website, then we'll start seeing the Ubuntu models cheaper than the Windows ones.

I think they have to put that up as part of the secret deal they have with Microsoft. If you notice almost every OEM has the same exact text on their website and advertising. Of course we can never know what is going unless there is some transparency in Microsoft's dealings, which there is not.

[aysiu]

I think they have to put that up as part of the secret deal they have with Microsoft. If you notice almost every OEM has the same exact text on their website and advertising. Of course we can never know what is going unless there is some transparency in Microsoft's dealings, which there is not. Oh, I know it's part of a secret deal with Microsoft, and that deal probably involves money (discounted OEM Windows licenses or some other kind of kickback... or maybe even just straight-up cash payment, like for advertising).

[koenn]

The bitter truth about OEM licenses: http://nc10linux.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/windows-refund/


And since the Manufacturer "Customised" the installed copy, Microsoft can claim no ownership of it.

So, dealing with Microsoft is barking up the wrong tree - sorry mate. Nice try at a brainstorm though.

Regards
Iain
Nice try also, but something's not right :
you'll still be subject to a license agreement with Microsoft, not with the Manufacturer - so how can they claim that it's not theirs anymore ? The License states that Microsoft retains all rights except the few they grant the user. where's that "Manufacturer", who's product this allegedly became, in all this ?

[koenn]

a) You misunderstand the definition of OEM. That only refers to the separate boxed copies of Windows you buy off the shelf, it is not the preinstalled operating systems on computers you buy.

Nope, the thing on the shelf is an FPP - a Full Packaged Product.
The preinstalled version is called OEM because it's released to Original Equipment Manufacturers - companies that build machines and then need an operating system for those "to make them complete".

[dado112233]

even if canonical gets 100% of the license i do not care i just dont want Microsoft to get it because i do use their product.
i can use "step over" service with my energy supplier, health insurance, car insurance, house insurance, mobile operator, TV operator, ISP..... But i cant do that for OS on my laptop, and the only reason for that is Microsoft behaviour in the past where we were told that you can only buy laptop with windows so now everything else just sounds impossible and ridiculous.
i mean u buy the laptop and decline the EULA install Ubuntu and then forget about the windows? because we are doing that Microsoft is able to promote its monopoly.
i dont see how this would be different then paying to Canonical for support only i get my OEM license back and it could be kept by canonical...

[Irihapeti]

Why not make a good solid business case for what you want, and present it to Canonical?

[mivo]

But i cant do that for OS on my laptop, and the only reason for that is Microsoft behaviour in the past where we were told that you can only buy laptop with windows so now everything else just sounds impossible and ridiculous.

You can buy a computer without Windows. What is so hard about doing that?

[phrostbyte]

You can buy a computer without Windows. What is so hard about doing that?

In the USA if you go to pretty much any major store you will never find a Linux PC. Maybe it is different in Germany. But you do have to go out of the way if you don't want Windows bundled.

[alphaniner]

In the USA if you go to pretty much any major store you will never find a Linux PC. Maybe it is different in Germany. But you do have to go out of the way if you don't want Windows bundled.

There's a lot of things you won't find in major stores. That doesn't mean anyone's freedom to buy those things is being infringed, or that anything illegal or even shady is going on.

[cariboo]

a) You misunderstand the definition of OEM. That only refers to the separate boxed copies of Windows you buy off the shelf, it is not the preinstalled operating systems on computers you buy.

b) This already happens. Microsoft takes payment from other third party software like AOL and other stupid software I can't think of right now that gets packaged with Windows on a preinstalled computer. This offsets the price of the operating system so you pay a whopping $0 for the Windows license with the machine. So therefore if you don't install it, you get your refund for $0 and you're set.


When I buy a copy of Windows from my supplier it comes with a label on it that says:


This OEM software may not be delivered unless accompanied by the required hardware under the Microsoft OEM System Builder License located at http://www.microsoft.com/oem/sblicense/. End-user support is the responsibility of the installer of this software

This is from an OEM copy of XP PRO I have sitting in front of me.

[mivo]

In the USA if you go to pretty much any major store you will never find a Linux PC.

He said he wants to buy a laptop from Dell. Dell does offer laptops with Linux.

And as Alphaniner said, not everything is offered everywhere. Even for simple stuff like eggs from chicken that live in an organic environment I have to find special stores. I can't get those eggs in most supermarkets. They are freely available, though, and so are pre-built computers without an OS or with Linux. Every store I have ever ordered a custom built computer from (yes, go-to stores too, not just online vendors) had the option of no OS for a lower price.

[dado112233]

Why not make a good solid business case for what you want, and present it to Canonical?


thats a good idea!

[dado112233]

He said he wants to buy a laptop from Dell. Dell does offer laptops with Linux.

And as Alphaniner said, not everything is offered everywhere. Even for simple stuff like eggs from chicken that live in an organic environment I have to find special stores. I can't get those eggs in most supermarkets. They are freely available, though, and so are pre-built computers without an OS or with Linux. Every store I have ever ordered a custom built computer from (yes, go-to stores too, not just online vendors) had the option of no OS for a lower price.


there is no dell, acer, asus, lenove, toshiba, sony...etc. without windows EU. one cant order dell laptop in EU with linux. Dell however will return you a windows fee, i got back 75 euro, so it is possible but i took me a lot of time. If canonical wants to do it for me it would bring them revenue.

[the yawner]

Mmkay, so basically you're saying Canonical could either:
- Hire personnel to deal with this stuff. Or in other words, divert some finances from their main projects
- Divert some of their manpower to handle this. Which translates to reduced efforts on their main projects.

In short, Canonical will have to invest their resources with no real assurance of any substantial income. Hmm...

[dado112233]

Mmkay, so basically you're saying Canonical could either:
- Hire personnel to deal with this stuff. Or in other words, divert some finances from their main projects
- Divert some of their manpower to handle this. Which translates to reduced efforts on their main projects.

In short, Canonical will have to invest their resources with no real assurance of any substantial income. Hmm...

and keep the license fees...entire one of certain procentage.

I would rather give 50 euro to Canonical then Microsoft, if i m using Ubuntu instead of windows.

I do not expect canonical to hire people to handle this, to divert cash flow to this issue but instead to offer a possibility to do it.

50€ per license * 100000 licensees = 5000000€
or
50€ per license * 1000 licensees = 50000€ - thats one year salary.

i think it should work.

[Dragonbite]

Why not start an open source business yourself, where people can send YOU the information and you do the legwork?

50% goes to you
30% goes to the person
20% goes to Ubuntu or some other Linux non-commercial organization

[Excedio]

I would rather give 50 euro to Canonical then Microsoft, if i m using Ubuntu instead of windows.*snip*

You could just do this and call it a day. ;-)

[dado112233]

Why not start an open source business yourself, where people can send YOU the information and you do the legwork?

50% goes to you
30% goes to the person
20% goes to Ubuntu or some other Linux non-commercial organization


dont like doing that...i have no interest in something like that.

as any other project it involves logistics and starting capital...and i do not have any of it, i m just a erlang developer.