Gamers ahoy, starting a Linux game company...

[blueturtl]

February 4th, 2011 Update

Things are standing still for the time being. I'm fathering two small kids and working so there really hasn't been much time to dedicate to this project. I have however been keeping my eyes open about the Linux game market. It seems a lot is happening with things like the Humble Bundle really kicking off. Maybe one day you'll see something from me along those lines, who knows. The dream of game making lives.

For those interested, the questionnaire I put up has now closed. The data can be found here. (http://www.saunalahti.fi/anmodino/project_x/) Anyone interested in it, should have a look.

November 30th, 2010 Update

I'm now exploring the possibilities of starting a company that would target Linux gamers (not a very competitive market at this time)!

Those who support the idea of gaming on Linux (instead of dual-booting), please answer this
quick questionnaire about games (http://www.esurveyspro.com/Survey.aspx?id=aa3c679c-fa80-497a-bb67-0934b3b2a3c2).
It is only ten questions, and will help me greatly in determining what my business plan ought to be.

I am leaning heavily toward creating original games at this point due to many helpful posts later in the thread.

Thanks everyone!

Original post
--
Hey everyone.

As you all know, Linux suffers from a type of chicken and egg problem when it comes to commercial desktop applications and especially games. It's repeated time and time again that we need more users before game and app companies develop products for the platform. However, lot's of users ignore Linux to begin with because the games aren't already there and so the cycle continues.

Briefly about me: I'm a father of two, currently studying to become an engineer in the field of information technology. I'm young, and I'm broke and I'd prefer to work on something I like and I can see would benefit others too. I believe in Linux as the superior platform and I'd be willing to invest my time and effort into starting a company that would specialize in porting commercial games for Linux (maybe even developing games of it's own).

The rationale: if game companies view Linux as a small and fragmented market they might be unwilling to do the port and supporting work themselves. However if a company existed, that would sell them the work instead, they might be less hesitant to foray into Linux. I haven't quite worked out a profit model yet, but suffice to say either my company would take a small slice of the selling price of a Linux copy of the game, or then we would be paid for the actual work only, supporting and patches, and possibly also via donations from the Linux gaming community. The game creator would essentially expand their market coverage to 100% (if they also support Macs) and avoid the nasty business of trying to support an X number of distros themselves.

Now.. I have never operated a company. I'm not a particularly good programmer. So I'm going to need help. So far all this is just an idea at the back of my head. I'd like to hear your input if you are a Linux gamer, a programmer, or have experience in the business world. Those interested in actually working at the company can PM me (I would like to note that I have no guarantee of any jobs or salaries at this point)..

I have no idea if this a viable proposition but I'd be interested in seeing where we can go from here.

[Nerd King]

Personally I'd suggest developing original content, steering as far as possible from mimicking the Windows commercial game scene. Something of the quality of the present indie game scene in Windows would be very beneficial to linux and likely to draw more sales, and give a better chance of creating a 'killer app' that people MUST have linux for (just as exclusives help a console vs the others). The Wii is successful for a number of reasons, but one of them is that only Nintendo consoles get Mario games. That exclusivity drives sales, and Linux needs the same thing.

[blueturtl]

If a mod would be kind and move this thread to the Gaming & Leisure subsection?

[P4man]

I dont see this working. Not like that.

First, no offence, having ideas is valuable but you bring precious little else to the table. No money, no coding skills, no entrepreneurial experience, no network. That makes it a nonstarter IMHO.

Assuming the above wouldnt be a problem and you'd experienced, wealthy and a coding god, even then I dont see this take off. Game developers would have to trust you with their source long before the game is released (or you;d be hopelessly late each game), and then spend a lot of time/effort supporting you while you try to do the porting, for marginal extra revenue (yes, the dreaded chicken again). Thats assuming its even feasible at all, games written for DirectX will be very hard to port.

IMHO the best way to resolve this chicken and egg problem is wine. Getting game developers to test and if necessary adapt so their games work well with wine, thats all it takes for linux to be relieved of this burden and once the market is big enough, may spur native development. Trying to make money from that approach is exactly what cedega did (does?), and unlike you they are experienced, financed and so far it doesnt look like a stunning success.

May I float an alternative idea? if you want to combine making money (eventually) while promoting linux, make something like crossloop for linux. Get it included in ubuntu by default, enable it for free and commercial support and you got yourself what I think could be a viable business model.

Just my 2 cents.

[Paqman]

Now.. I have never operated a company. I'm not a particularly good programmer.

I wouldn't say you'd need to be, although in small business you'll find that you'll have to become a bit of a jack-of-all-trades. You'll be the manager, the accountant, the IT guy and the tea lady, all rolled into one.

I'd say you're going to need extensive contacts in the industry to make this happen. Once you really know the way the games companies do business and have some relationships you'll be able to decide on your business model. Then go to the bank and start talking about it to them. They'll be able to give you a hand on coming up with a proper business plan and sort out your loan.

I'm assuming your engineering training has involved a certain amount of management training and experience. If so I don't see why you couldn't take a crack at running your own business. A lot of the engineering mindset can be directly applied to management, just treat everything as a process you're trying to optimise. A lot of the efficiency and reliability analysis tools you'll have learned can be generalised.

But do form contacts with other people running their own business and pump them for advice. Your local government might also be able to help out with that.

[The Funkbomb]

I like the idea but I do see some problems with patching and porting mainstream games.

If the ports/patches are widely received, a game company might just decide to do it themselves. While the linux community would win, your company would lose. If the games aren't, no companies are going to risk their flagship games and possibly damage their reputations for a linux work around. Really, there is no way for you to win.

My suggestion is to make original games specifically for linux, borrowing the things people like from mainstream games and putting them into your creations.

[Naiki Muliaina]

My opinion of the way it should be done, is 2dboy got it right. cheap indie hit, innovotive and fresh. Porting games takes time, by the time they are ported the shiney factor is lost. Makes something new, fresh, original, and it will sell if its good.

[starcannon]

We don't need any more FPS, thats pretty well saturated.
Lets have some decent MMORPG's of the popular genres.
I currently pay to play Eve Online, though I rarely play as I am too lazy to dual boot. I am getting ready to switch to Vendetta (http://vendetta-online.com/) so that I can support a GNU/Linux native game AND not have to dual boot.

I wish I had a million dollars, I think a commercial GNU/Linux Gaming company could actually be self supporting.

GL and I hope to buy some titles from you :)

[pookiebear]

What about a gaming company that sells games for all 3.
Windows, Linux, AND Mac. Make sure your games run on all 3. Then you have broken the mold of windows&mac OR linux. Definitely doing your own content.
Cross over with an extension of the game on the iphone or android phone too. Like say you can do character customization, player chat and an auction house(for the MMO'ers) on your phone to supplement the game.

[starcannon]

What about a gaming company that sells games for all 3.
Windows, Linux, AND Mac. Make sure your games run on all 3. Then you have broken the mold of windows&mac OR linux. Definitely doing your own content.
Cross over with an extension of the game on the iphone or android phone too. Like say you can do character customization, player chat and an auction house(for the MMO'ers) on your phone to supplement the game.

Thats the beauty of it all, OpenGL is happy to play with everyone.

[Zoot7]

The problem is, which distro do you develop for?
It's an awful lot of work to develop something as complex as a game and have it work over all the distros out there due to the oddities across them.


currently studying to become an engineer in the field of information technology.
Ditto! :) Except Electronics is my field.

[starcannon]

The problem is, which distro do you develop for?
It's an awful lot of work to develop something as complex as a game and have it work over all the distros out there due to the oddities across them.


Ditto! :) Except Electronics is my field.

A lot of the installers I have seen allow you to choose where to install to, and some just install to a self creating folder in the ~/username directory.

A full list of dependencies can be put on a readme, and the community as always will do the support for the installation issues.

[Simian Man]

This has actually been done before by a group called Loki Software. They ported quite a few games to Linux, but had to close down shop years back. Interestingly they originally started the SDL and OpenAL projects which are still awesome tools for cross-platform game dev. So I think this business model has potential - at least in the short term, though it will be very difficult to pull off.

Different distros are really not a problem if you do the Windows trick of bundling all of your major dependencies along with the application. This is not ideal, which is why we have package management obviously, but it is sure easier.

I think you're biggest obstacle is getting in the door honestly. First off you have to convince a game company that there is a point in letting you see their source. If there is no evidence you'll pull in any money, they won't see it as worth the risk and bother of working with you.

Secondly, you'll have to convince gamers who run Linux to buy your version. I know many Linux enthusiasts who are also avid gamers and all of them keep a Windows partition around for games. So if your game comes out, these people will have a choice of either the COTS version they can get at Best Buy supported by a company they know, or your version which may be more of a hassle. You'll have to somehow convince these people.

[forrestcupp]

Thats assuming its even feasible at all, games written for DirectX will be very hard to port.+1
It's possible, but probably not worth the effort. Somebody just needs to make a killer commercial cross-platform game engine that wraps directx & opengl with the same code. It has to be commercial so the game studios will respect it. Ogre3D can already do this, but no one respects it because it's open source.



We don't need any more FPS, thats pretty well saturated.Wrong. We don't need any more arena style multi-player FPS's. Those are a dime a dozen, and they're all the same game with a different backdrop. All you can do is roam around and frag people, but you get your choice of whether to do it in WWII Europe or on a spaceship. Boring!

But we do have a severe shortage of decent single-player FPS's with a good storyline.

[blueturtl]

I dont see this working. Not like that.

First, no offence, having ideas is valuable but you bring precious little else to the table. No money, no coding skills, no entrepreneurial experience, no network. That makes it a nonstarter IMHO.

Ben and Jerry were just two guys in a garage, making ice cream. :) I do see your point... obviously I would have to develop those skills and work hard to make it all come together. I'm not looking to be some pointy haired boss.


Assuming the above wouldn't be a problem and you'd experienced, wealthy and a coding god, even then I don't see this take off. Game developers would have to trust you with their source long before the game is released (or you;d be hopelessly late each game), and then spend a lot of time/effort supporting you while you try to do the porting, for marginal extra revenue (yes, the dreaded chicken again). That's assuming its even feasible at all, games written for DirectX will be very hard to port.

Certainly a lot of technical stuff to be taken into account. Mostly making games work on Linux is a matter of translating the bits of code that interface with the OS and it's APIs. The internal game logic (which practically forms most of the vital stuff) wouldn't need to be changed. A game would also have to be compiled with the said changes for Linux. I am also wondering how eager a game company would be to do the port to begin with precisely for the reasons you say. There would have to be something in it for them.


IMHO the best way to resolve this chicken and egg problem is wine. Getting game developers to test and if necessary adapt so their games work well with wine, that's all it takes for Linux to be relieved of this burden and once the market is big enough, may spur native development. Trying to make money from that approach is exactly what Cedega did (does?), and unlike you they are experienced, financed and so far it doesn't look like a stunning success.

I think the lack of Cedega and WINE success is because they really are inferior methods of running games on Linux. A native application would always be preferable. Most Linux gamers have no choice, so they run Cedega/WINE.


May I float an alternative idea? if you want to combine making money (eventually) while promoting Linux, make something like Crossloop for Linux. Get it included in Ubuntu by default, enable it for free and commercial support and you got yourself what I think could be a viable business model.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks.. What is Crossloop?

[blueturtl]

I like the idea but I do see some problems with patching and porting mainstream games.

If the ports/patches are widely received, a game company might just decide to do it themselves. While the linux community would win, your company would lose. If the games aren't, no companies are going to risk their flagship games and possibly damage their reputations for a Linux work around. Really, there is no way for you to win.

My suggestion is to make original games specifically for Linux, borrowing the things people like from mainstream games and putting them into your creations.

Thank you. Your point is well received.

[Simian Man]

+1
It's possible, but probably not worth the effort. Somebody just needs to make a killer commercial cross-platform game engine that wraps directx & opengl with the same code. It has to be commercial so the game studios will respect it. Ogre3D can already do this, but no one respects it because it's open source.

Actually this is quite a common misconception. Any game that is released for a console other than the XBox has no dependency on DirectX because it doesn't exist for these consoles. Almost all games abstract away their rendering code to make them portable to other consoles, so DirectX is mostly a non-issue. In fact many games already use custom engines that do this for them already.

[mivo]

Now.. I have never operated a company. I'm not a particularly good programmer

I don't mean for this to sound in any way negative or offensive. What would you bring into the company if you are neither skilled at programming (game development is involved) or have experience in running a company?

All of this can be learned, but perhaps starting smaller may be better? I.e. contributing to an existing project, learning the ropes, seeing how things are organized (or not organized), etc.

[blueturtl]

A lot of replies coming in a short period of time.

Thank you everyone, and keep your pants on please. :D

I think I owe you guys a little more. This whole thing really started with a simple observation that:

a) There are A LOT of people running WINE.
b) There are A LOT of people who actually pay to use Cedega, even though their game support is finicky at best.
c) 20 000 people have signed the StarCraft 2 for Linux petition and plenty others probably don't even know about it...
d) Some people post they'd even pay double the price of the Windows game for a Linux version
e) Lot's of people pirate games and don't want to pay a cent

Really... while this is also about Linux I'm trying to figure out if the Linux gamers is a niche big enough to make me (and possibly some other people) a living. I sense there is opportunity here, but being able to wield that opportunity is another matter altogether.

On the other hand I don't really want to make another Frozen-Bubble or Tux Racer (they are great games don't get me wrong).. I'd like to see more titles like the ones that make big splashes on the Windows side run on Linux. Something like that.

It's not about the platform, it's about the applications. So going the way of making original games for Linux sounds all the more feasible because then I'd be offering people something they can't have elsewhere. This coupled with the fact that I can essentially bundle Ubuntu with a game for free would mean that the market for my (our?) game would be as big as the market for any Windows game.

Consider this a brainstorming thread. I'm still quite uncertain about any of this.

[alphaniner]

I think a better bet would be to look into companies that have already demonstrated an interest in Linux. Granted, not many come to mind. BioWare released a Linux compatible Neverwinter Nights client, but that was ages ago. The only other thing that comes to mind is 'Penny Arcade Adventures: On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness' was released for Linux (as well as Mac, Win and 360).

[blueturtl]

I don't mean for this to sound in any way negative or offensive. What would you bring into the company if you are neither skilled at programming (game development is involved) or have experience in running a company?

Vision. ;)

I'm kidding. Seriously though, I guess the only thing I have at this point is initiative. Anybody could do it. I just felt like posting something other than "would someone else please make this thing work for me".

[AllRadioisDead]

I know a lot of people that would make the move to linux if good commercial games were available. I like this idea, but it will not be an easy task.

[Paqman]

I'm trying to figure out if the Linux gamers is a niche big enough to make me (and possibly some other people) a living.


You'd need a lot more than just yourself. Besides the code monkeys you'll also need to do the QA.

[P4man]

Ben and Jerry were just two guys in a garage, making ice cream. :)

Im not sure who ben and jerry are, but making ice cream is kind of easy compared to coding state of the art game, and you can start making money in a day whereas with porting games you'd be lucky to have your first sale in less than a year or two


Certainly a lot of technical stuff to be taken into account. Mostly making games work on Linux is a matter of translating the bits of code that interface with the OS and it's APIs. The internal game logic (which practically forms most of the vital stuff) wouldn't need to be changed.

There is not only the technical aspects, although those would be plenty hard already (have a guess how many man-hours a typical console port takes?), but then there is the trouble of IP. Game studio's licence engines, like unreal engine or cryengine for the graphics, RAD's Bink for middleware and things like Havoc for physics. You wouldnt even get to see the sourcecode, in many cases the game studio's dont get to see them,, much less be allowed to port it. Again, im not even mentioning all the tie-ins with DirectX here which could be a HUGE task to port to OpenGL. Rewriting the game (engine) may well be as fast.


A game would also have to be compiled with the said changes for Linux. I am also wondering how eager a game company would be to do the port to begin with precisely for the reasons you say. There would have to be something in it for them.

Its all about the $$$. How many Wii's, x-box or playstations are there? 50 or 100M combined? Compare that to (my guess) far less than 1M linux gamers that do not own windows or a console. OS-X faces the exact same problem but arguable has a bigger target market than linux even (and its not as fragmented)


I think the lack of Cedega and WINE success is because they really are inferior methods of running games on Linux. A native application would always be preferable. Most Linux gamers have no choice, so they run Cedega/WINE.

Sure if given the choice I'd buy a native copy. In absence of that, if the game runs fine under wine, as a lot do, Im still buying the game. If it doesnt run under wine, the vast majority of linux users will STILL buy the game and run it on windows. Where is the incentive for the game developer to spend so much effort in porting?

Anyway I dont want to claim there is no market, and perhaps for some games it might even be worth the effort, especially if the game engine used is linux friendly, or has a native port. But the reason you dont see many games ported is the same reason why your plan is not likely to work.


Thanks.. What is Crossloop?

http://www.crossloop.com/

Its a very simple remote access client program (that works through firewalls and NAT routers) with a webinterface to find "helpers", ie people who are able and willing to assist you with a given problem, either for free or for a fee (crossloop collects a % of that). Its remarkably simple, should be simple to set up (all the ingredients already exist, VNC, ssh reverse tunnels,..) and I think there is a huge demand from new and not so new linux users looking for help, many of whom wouldnt mind paying a small fee or voluntarily donate a small amount for the help received.

[blueturtl]

By porting, I would be riding on the genius of others - but the porting business is vile indeed.

By developing original games, I'd have to be really good at making games people want to play, but development would be in-house and without porting related issues.

Whatever happened to Loki anyway?

[alphaniner]

...but the porting business is vile indeed.

What is wrong with the porting business?

[blueturtl]

What is wrong with the porting business?

Several other posters in the thread have highlighted potential troubles with porting instead of developing anew.

[phrostbyte]

+1
It's possible, but probably not worth the effort. Somebody just needs to make a killer commercial cross-platform game engine that wraps directx & opengl with the same code. It has to be commercial so the game studios will respect it. Ogre3D can already do this, but no one respects it because it's open source.

Who is "no one", I respect it! :p Actually there are many games already written with Ogre3D. Very big game developers like EA/id/Blizzard/Value have their own engines, btw, they aren't going to use 3rd party engine regardless, and the vast majority of blockbuster games come from this shortlist.

[Frak]

I'll I can say is good luck. I can't say you'll go anywhere, but I can't say you'll fall flat on your face either. There are a couple things that you may have problems with:

First off, you've never run a business. Marketing is a great skill to learn. It won't automatically make you Mr. Millionaire, but it will start you off on the right foot. I've managed a few businesses, worked in marketing divisions, and have been a consultant. Experience is a better learning opportunity than taking a class, definitely, but knowledge ahead of time will save you from a lot of pain.

Secondly, gaming is a huge area. It depends on many variables to whether something is considered a success. In fact, I think it's easier to market OpenOffice than it is to market any game. You'll be competing with these giant companies to market your product. The phrase to remember is "Anything you can do, they can do better". They have more money than you, they have more experienced programmers than you, they have more departments than you, they have more artists than you, they have more lawyers than you, and they have a stronger following than you. This leads to my next point:

Don't aim to succeed, aim to be bought out. It's easier to be bought out than to spend night and day to work on a product. Successful people keep with their product, stay until the work is done, and make sure it works flawlessly and give it a good public image. Smart people work hard enough to be bought out by a larger company, so they can work on what they want to work on because the company has paid their bills for the rest of their life. They have more money than you, use that to your advantage. I would say go this route unless you really want to help the Linux community. Reason being, once you are bought out, people will hate you. People will call you a sellout and they will possibly boycott the product. I can almost assure you that when an Open Source project is sold to a private corporation, they will almost surely close it. Any improvements thereafter will be private to the company.

Next, you don't know how to program. Plain and simple, it will take you at least four years to get a good enough grasp of programming to make anything remotely marketable. The alternative is to hire people who do know and you manage the operation.

I'm going to skip the rest and get to the bottom line. Is it possible, yes, I've seen miracles happen. What's the most common end, the company will declare bankruptcy and close-out. My recommendation, and take this with a grain of salt because I'm not you, get a good job, support your kids, and have fun in your life. Don't waste your life on starting a business like this, one that is a risky expenditure. Mark Shuttleworth had the money to start Canonical, you don't. Running a business is a 24/7 job. It never ends. You'll be asleep in bed and suddenly get a call from Germany from someone interested in your product. You'll be watching your kids in a play and get a phone call to come to the office to have an emergency meeting. You'll be spending hours every week making sure your company has enough to run. Your life will revolve around the business. I've been in that situation, and I liked it, but I also didn't have much of a life elsewhere, but once you do, the job turns into a lifetime job.

[mivo]

It has to be commercial so the game studios will respect it. Ogre3D can already do this, but no one respects it because it's open source.

Runic Games used Ogre3D for their recently released, commercial game: Torchlight (http://torchlightgame.com/). Runic Game was founded by former Blizzard North and Flagship Studio employees (i.e. the Schaefer brothers who were responsible for Diablo 1). Torchlight is a Windows game, though, with a Mac version on the way.

(I really dig the game.)

[beastrace91]

Yea - its a shame Torchlight's DRM makes it fail to load up on Wine. I bought it VIA Steam but have been un-able to play it because I lack a Windows partition.

~Jeff

[NERDMAN!]

where do i sign up XD
got my support. linux needs a gaming community.
windows has dominated the market long enough.

[LinuxFanBoi]

Hey everyone.

Briefly about me: I'm a father of two, currently studying to become an engineer in the field of information technology. I'm young, and I'm broke and I'd prefer to work on something I like and I can see would benefit others too. I believe in Linux as the superior platform and I'd be willing to invest my time and effort into starting a company that would specialize in porting commercial games for Linux (maybe even developing games of it's own).

First let me say that your ideas are well founded and I applaud your willingness to contribute to the open source community in this way. Let me just say however that there is a lot of politics involved in what you propose.

When Blizzard Entertainment was developing World of Warcraft, it had a Linux client in the beta phase. The reason it was dropped in the commercial phase was quite simply, they where threatened by microsoft to lose their windows compatibility logo. This is not as simple as not being authorized to put a Microsoft logo on the packaging. On install the user would receive a warning that the software they are installing doesn't have a windows compatibility logo and will, vaguely alude to Microsoft not supporting their OS.

While we know that this in reality means very little and the software will work just fine, windows users will often buy into any propaganda that Microsoft feeds them.

Also I would be willing to bet that there are strong bonds that Microsoft has developed between game makers. they're development costs are most likely subsidized (fancy language for bribery) on the condition that the developers not offer support for their game on the Linux platform or include OpenGL in their product.

This is what I believe you are up against and unless you have a very large amount of capital to compensate, a giant like Microsoft would crush your company. Not being rude, just trying to be candid.

[mivo]

The reason it was dropped in the commercial phase was quite simply, they where threatened by microsoft to lose their windows compatibility logo.

Link to the source, please.

[Frak]

Link to the source, please.
Aye, source or it didn't happen.

[LinuxFanBoi]

Aye, source or it didn't happen.

Not sure where I read that, and perhaps one day I'll work up the motivation to hunt down the source, but meh. Besides on a scale of one to ten, 10 being the dirtiest thing Microsoft has done to retain market share, this move would only score about a two, so it's not that improbable, JMHO.

[NuclearStr1der]

I think it's an awesome idea.

You've just got to expect to struggle a bit as the market for Linux gaming is incredibly small compared to PC (windows) gaming.

I think OpenGL is great - I mean, I bought Doom 3 and Quake Wars for Linux, as well as Darwinia and Defcon from Introversion for Linux.

But Good luck, you have my word - if your games are good - I'll buy them. And Linux needs a really good 3D RPG.

[blueturtl]

Well guys... I use Linux so any company I start would offer a Linux version first and foremost. :)

What I'm thinking about is if the company should go exclusive (most beneficial to Linux) or multiplatform (most beneficial to me and probably to the company).

To address LinuxFanboi, Microsoft doesn't feel like a threat other than as a competitor (a maker of games). Unless I sell the company to them, there's not much they could do about it.

[NuclearStr1der]

Multiplatform --> spread the risk, and possibly raise awareness that a Linux version exists.

It was the reason I bought Introversion games.

[LinuxFanBoi]

To address LinuxFanboi, Microsoft doesn't feel like a threat other than as a competitor (a maker of games). Unless I sell the company to them, there's not much they could do about it.

They've already taken steps to make it difficult to do what you propose by keeping DirectX in-house, and constantly and drastically changing it with each release. While each release does serve to improve on it, it also serves to make it harder for the WINE and cedega camps to make things function on Linux.

Like I said, I like your idea, and I'm in your corner. I just want you to be aware that there are people out there that are not going to take kindly to the possibility that your products and services will potentially cost them market share. I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to buy you out just to shut you down.

[mivo]

Not sure where I read that, and perhaps one day I'll work up the motivation to hunt down the source, but meh.

In short, it is unfounded, baseless FUD. Your name indicated that it might be, but I was curious if you'd be able to back up the statement.

Now, when I was participating in the WoW beta and the Linux client was canned, the statement made was that it was not commercially relevant and that there weren't enough resources. WoW had already been too long in beta. But I can't link you to this, since the beta forums no longer exist. It makes a lot more sense than what you said, though, because at the time WoW was not quite as big as it is today, nor did anyone predict how successful it would be. Compared to the big MMOs at the time, EverQuest (with EQ2 around the corner) and DAoC, it didn't matter much outside of the Blizzard fanbase.

[LinuxFanBoi]

In short, it is unfounded, baseless FUD. Your name indicated that it might be, but I was curious if you'd be able to back up the statement.

I'll make sure that next time I indicate that my statement is based on theory and suspicion if it's not supported. When it comes to FUD mongering, Microsoft reigns supreme. Again, this is MY opinion, but probably shared by many.

[blueturtl]

I remember a certain Bungie making a game called 'Halo' exclusively for the Mac. Then Microsoft bought them and the game became a XBOX/Windows exclusive (for a good while anyway).

There is truth to what you say LinuxFanboi, but you're coming off a bit paranoid. In the end it all comes down to company management. Bungie wanted to be bought, so they were. Had they not wanted it, Microsoft would not have been able to do so.

Microsoft's tactic of making (or buying) a competing product and giving it away for free to drive competitors out of business wouldn't exactly work for them in my case wouldn't you agree? :)

[Frak]

I'll make sure that next time I indicate that my statement is based on theory and suspicion if it's not supported. When it comes to FUD mongering, Microsoft reigns supreme. Again, this is MY opinion, but probably shared by many.
More FUD is spread by Linux fans than any company. I don't want to hear this "Apple/Microsoft spread a lot of FUD".

You stated something, said "Oh, I don't remember where I got it" and then just expected people to believe you. It doesn't work like that.

[Simian Man]

I'll make sure that next time I indicate that my statement is based on theory and suspicion if it's not supported. When it comes to FUD mongering, Microsoft reigns supreme. Again, this is MY opinion, but probably shared by many.

Shouldn't you just try to post things that actually have basis in reality? FUD is FUD no matter who is spewing it.

[LinuxFanBoi]

More FUD is spread by Linux fans than any company.

tell that to a guy I know that had to sit in a 3 hour training session while working at Best Buy, hosted by a Microsoft rep where he was trained in what to tell a customer if they inquire about Linux. He stood up at the meeting and asked why after over 10 years since the release of Windows 95 does Windows still rely on DLL's and a registry, which is the source of a large number of issues for PC users, as well as asking why after being in the Operating system business for almost 30 years A Microsoft product still hasn't implemented a file system that doesn't fragment files when writing them to the HDD. The answer he received from the rep was something to the effect that they couldn't answer his question because they where marketing department.

Besides, This thread was about the viability of the OP's business plan. Which I support but also have my reservations as a result of the power players in the business he wants to get into. You haven't really refuted my overall point, just nit picking something I said that you didn't agree with. Yes it was unsubstantiated and I don't have a source to back it up and I admit I shouldn't have sounded as if I was making a factual statement. The fact still remains that my overall point is intact.


Microsoft's tactic of making (or buying) a competing product and giving it away for free to drive competitors out of business wouldn't exactly work for them in my case wouldn't you agree?

You are absolutely correct. However you said You where broke, It's safe to assume that if offered the right price you would take it without regard for what the buyer intended to do with the company. This is good for you as the pursuit of profit is your primary goal, the pursuit of doing what you love is secondary. With money to live on you can do what you love without concern for profit or success.

But that doesn't help guys like me who would like to see you succeed only to have you bought out and closed down in the interests of Microsoft not losing it's core PC gaming market. It would also be safe to assume that Microsoft would force you to sign a non-compete clause forbidding you to continue your project on a personal basis. This you can be almost certain. correct me if I'm wrong but I believe non-competes can forbid even GNU-GPL software distributions.

[forrestcupp]

Actually this is quite a common misconception. Any game that is released for a console other than the XBox has no dependency on DirectX because it doesn't exist for these consoles. Almost all games abstract away their rendering code to make them portable to other consoles, so DirectX is mostly a non-issue. In fact many games already use custom engines that do this for them already.

Wow. That's a great point. I've never thought of it that way. I doubt if Wii and PS3 use OpenGL, though, do they?

It's well worth their time to port for the Wii and PS3. If they would have to put a lot more effort into doing it for Linux, too, I really doubt if it would be worth the effort at all.

But like you said earlier, Loki Software did this successfully for a time. You used to be able to buy native Linux versions of games from them. I guess the fact that they went under isn't a good sign.

[LinuxFanBoi]

Wow. That's a great point. I've never thought of it that way. I doubt if Wii and PS3 use OpenGL, though, do they?

It's well worth their time to port for the Wii and PS3. If they would have to put a lot more effort into doing it for Linux, too, I really doubt if it would be worth the effort at all.

But like you said earlier, Loki Software did this successfully for a time. You used to be able to buy native Linux versions of games from them. I guess the fact that they went under isn't a good sign.

This to is correct, but how much money do you think is spent by Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo to get exclusivity rights? Just like IPhones and ATT, Driods and Verizon. For PC's Microsoft has already got the platform on lock-down. When Microsoft comes knocking on Activision's door to offer them a large subsidy (bribe) to make the game windows only, you're gonna have a hard time convincing Activision otherwise.

[Simian Man]

Wow. That's a great point. I've never thought of it that way. I doubt if Wii and PS3 use OpenGL, though, do they?
Actually both the PS3 and Wii purportedly use variants of OpenGL. Only registered developers know how close they actually come to the standard though. Even the Xbox doesn't run the same DirectX as PCs, so games that target more than one system are really already cross-platform, they just don't care about us Linux users :(.


It's well worth their time to port for the Wii and PS3. If they would have to put a lot more effort into doing it for Linux, too, I really doubt if it would be worth the effort at all.
Most of the effort for a Linux port would not even really be in technical development - it would be in all the extra crap: testing, packaging, distributing and supporting a game on an additional platform. Not only that, but a rather fragmented and fast-moving platform. Some game developers hate developing for PCs at all because there is so much more variability in the platform when compared to a console where you *know* what hardware and software is available to you.


But like you said earlier, Loki Software did this successfully for a time. You used to be able to buy native Linux versions of games from them. I guess the fact that they went under isn't a good sign.
Yeah it's possible, but like you said, not a good sign :).

[Simian Man]

This to is correct, but how much money do you think is spent by Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo to get exclusivity rights? Just like IPhones and ATT, Driods and Verizon. For PC's Microsoft has already got the platform on lock-down. When Microsoft comes knocking on Activision's door to offer them a large subsidy (bribe) to make the game windows only, you're gonna have a hard time convincing Activision otherwise.

You really don't know what you're talking about. Nobody is bribing game compaines to avoid Linux. Sadly they don't have to.

[LinuxFanBoi]

Nobody is bribing game compaines to avoid Linux. Sadly they don't have to.

You may be right, I may just be paranoied, but believe me if Linux ever starts to take gamers from Microsoft, this is not outside the realm of possibility.

[mivo]

You may be right, I may just be paranoied, but believe me if Linux ever starts to take gamers from Microsoft, this is not outside the realm of possibility.

How come Microsoft doesn't "bribe" companies to not release games for the Mac? WoW is available for Mac, for example.

[openuniverse]

.

[Frak]

I doubt if Wii and PS3 use OpenGL, though, do they?

The PS3 uses OpenGL, the Wii uses an OpenGL-like implementation. The PS3 uses PSGL, which is a custom version of OpenGL ES, and Wii uses an updated form of the Gamecube's GX, a.k.a. Wii GX, which is a lot like OpenGL, but is their own toolkit entirely. There are wrappers for the GX toolkit, though (http://code.google.com/p/gl2gx/).

[blueturtl]

You are absolutely correct. However you said You where broke, It's safe to assume that if offered the right price you would take it without regard for what the buyer intended to do with the company. This is good for you as the pursuit of profit is your primary goal, the pursuit of doing what you love is secondary. With money to live on you can do what you love without concern for profit or success.

It's a fair assumption. What I mean by broke is that we get by... The family is fed and we live comfortably, but there really isn't any extra to spare. With that in mind I'd really be going to lengths to make this thing happen and at this point. Is money the reason to do it (for me)? I would say not. Money is not what I crave for personally, although it does make life easier. This is what I have most doubt about... money dictates the business world and I don't know if I have the right mindset to enter it. A company should be profitable. Can that be attainable if the company has any goals above profitability (like say staying true to serve a certain market segment)?


But that doesn't help guys like me who would like to see you succeed only to have you bought out and closed down in the interests of Microsoft not losing it's core PC gaming market. It would also be safe to assume that Microsoft would force you to sign a non-compete clause forbidding you to continue your project on a personal basis. This you can be almost certain. correct me if I'm wrong but I believe non-competes can forbid even GNU-GPL software distributions.

It's too far in the future for me to even begin worrying about stuff like that. First the company would have to have a hit product, and I mean a big hit product for it to draw any attention to Linux outside the already existing Linux market. Though I am a gamer, I doubt my personal tastes or views on what are good games would be shared by that many people.

[forrestcupp]

Even the Xbox doesn't run the same DirectX as PCs, so games that target more than one system are really already cross-platform, they just don't care about us Linux users :(.Yeah, but they've come up with XNA, which is their move from managed DX. XNA games will work on PC's and the Xbox. It actually looks like a sweet way to develop. The only reason I'm staying away from it, other than lack of Linux support, is because I like programming in C++ much more than C#. I messed with managed DirectX when they supported that, but since then, I've grown to like C++ more.


The PS3 uses OpenGL, the Wii uses an OpenGL-like implementation. The PS3 uses PSGL, which is a custom version of OpenGL ES, and Wii uses an updated form of the Gamecube's GX, a.k.a. Wii GX, which is a lot like OpenGL, but is their own toolkit entirely. There are wrappers for the GX toolkit, though (http://code.google.com/p/gl2gx/).That's kind of what I was getting at. You can't just program straight OpenGL code and have it work without porting it to their special graphics toolkits. I knew the Wii used their own GX kit, but I didn't know what PS3 used.

[Simian Man]

Yeah, but they've come up with XNA, which is their move from managed DX. XNA games will work on PC's and the Xbox. It actually looks like a sweet way to develop.
Yeah, but XNA is not targeted at large commercial game developers but hobbyists and indies.


That's kind of what I was getting at. You can't just program straight OpenGL code and have it work without porting it to their special graphics toolkits. I knew the Wii used their own GX kit, but I didn't know what PS3 used.

Exactly so any game that runs on more than one platform at all cannot depend either on OpenGL or DirectX. Like I said, it's not that games will need to be totally rewritten to work on Linux; almost all of the code will remain untouched. It's just all of the other stuff I mentioned earlier, combined with a lack of users that keeps games off native Linux.

[NightwishFan]

I am learning python, so I can get some programming experience. I was hoping to eventually make an isometric rpg with an integrated gui editor reminiscent of Arcanum. Far from it though, I can only write scripts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura

[mivo]

I think getting code done or finding programmers is much easier than obtaining art or finding artists. That's why so many open source games look twenty years old even if the mechanics and the coding are state of the art. Art and other media is what makes developing games so expensive today.

[NightwishFan]

I think getting code done or finding programmers is much easier than obtaining art or finding artists. That's why so many open source games look twenty years old even if the mechanics and the coding are state of the art. Art and other media is what makes developing games so expensive today.

This is true, though some games do pretty well. The soundtrack on Battle For Wesnoth is great.

[Grenage]

It's not the be all and end all. I recently installed 'Beneath a Steel Sky' on my laptop, and I love it. While I remember it when it first came out (I bought it), and graphics have come a long way, it doesn't detract from the gameplay at all.

It might be nostalgia speaking, but hey.

[mivo]

I don't know what happened to me, but I find it hard to get used to outdated graphics. Not talking about graphics of games that were released in this century, but the early 90s and 80s stuff. It's odd, because I had an Atari 2600 in my teens, and played games on the CPC, Atari ST, early 386ers, etc throughout the 80s and 90s, but other than on handhelds (DS, PSP), dated graphics really seems to get into my way of truly enjoying video games today.

[Grenage]

I don't know what happened to me, but I find it hard to get used to outdated graphics. Not talking about graphics of games that were released in this century, but the early 90s and 80s stuff. It's odd, because I had an Atari 2600 in my teens, and played games on the CPC, Atari ST, early 386ers, etc throughout the 80s and 90s, but other than on handhelds (DS, PSP), dated graphics really seems to get into my way of truly enjoying video games today.

But those were the graphics of the day. In today's world of DVD and blueray, a lot of people can't bear VHS quality, and that's a relatively minor difference.

[forrestcupp]

I think getting code done or finding programmers is much easier than obtaining art or finding artists. That's why so many open source games look twenty years old even if the mechanics and the coding are state of the art. Art and other media is what makes developing games so expensive today.

This is right on. Ogre3D is an excellent cross-platform 3D engine that has the ability to do amazing things. But most of the projects that I've seen that use it look kind of outdated and cruddy. It's because of what you said.

Great models, level plans, story lines, sound effects, and background music scores are what separates good commercial games from the free offerings.

I'm working on a small project, and I'm doing my own art. I'm getting it done, but it's definitely my least favorite part of the process and it's slowing me down a lot. I have great respect for good artists and animators.

[blueturtl]

Linux games are required mate and I m pretty sure if you know what you are doing you can achieve something good. One thing you've got to decide on is if you would be willing to keep it free

I was thinking that I would solve the supporting X distros problem by having the game engine/mechanics released as open source. The game content would be produced separately and would be the bit that costs money.

This way if I only support distros X, Y and Z, users of A, S and D can still have their game, if their communities can modify the game executables and scripts for use with their particular distribution.

[P4man]

I think there is a market for a holiday resorts on the moon, who helps me finance, design, and build the rocket ? :)

I dont mean to be rude, but you seem fairly serious about this while at the same time fairly seriously clueless about (modern) game development. Before you start dreaming too hard, perhaps you could spend some time trying to write a game, and I mean something as simple as a 1980's space invader clone or something, just using openGL. Or try porting sone opensource game. Quake III is opensource, have some fun with it:
http://element61.blogspot.com/2005/08/looking-at-quake-3-source-part-1.html

[forrestcupp]

I was thinking that I would solve the supporting X distros problem by having the game engine/mechanics released as open source. The game content would be produced separately and would be the bit that costs money.

This way if I only support distros X, Y and Z, users of A, S and D can still have their game, if their communities can modify the game executables and scripts for use with their particular distribution.

If that's what your planning, then you're only going to be working on original titles. You won't be able to take a commercial game that doesn't already have Linux support and do that.

Because of what has already been said about game content creation, I think creating original titles probably takes a lot more work than porting existing titles.

[ExSuSEusr]

I don't think it's a bad idea per say... but something that might net you more income would be to create a program that does "the dirty work" for you. Let me explain. Despite what many others may say - we all know that games like some of the more popular MMO's do indeed "work" on Linux - Ubuntu for example. People DO get WoW and EQ II (for example) working. BUT - it takes a lot of know how and time.

If you were to come up with a program that did the dirty work - by dirty work I mean a program that snoops the systems identifies what you're missing, what you need and so forth to work with a particular game - then "gets / installs / configures" it for you. Hell, I'd gladly pay for that. You could design it to support a number of games since a lot of games have very similar requirements. Of course you'd still need to play the game through WINE, but it would be very handy indeed.

Before someone starts screaming "Linux is FREE!!" Yes, but doesn't Cedega charge?

[P4man]

If you were to come up with a program that did the dirty work - by dirty work I mean a program that snoops the systems identifies what you're missing, what you need and so forth to work with a particular game - then "gets / installs / configures" it for you. Hell, I'd gladly pay for that. .

Then donate (http://www.playonlinux.com/en/donate.html) to these chaps:
http://www.playonlinux.com/en/

Because its exactly what they do :) (except its free)

[blueturtl]

I think there is a market for a holiday resorts on the moon, who helps me finance, design, and build the rocket ? :)

I dont mean to be rude, but you seem fairly serious about this while at the same time fairly seriously clueless about (modern) game development. Before you start dreaming too hard, perhaps you could spend some time trying to write a game, and I mean something as simple as a 1980's space invader clone or something, just using openGL. Or try porting sone opensource game. Quake III is opensource, have some fun with it:
http://element61.blogspot.com/2005/08/looking-at-quake-3-source-part-1.html

I am utterly clueless! :D

The first thing I'm going to do, is to get my hands on a programming manual aimed at game developers, introduce myself to some basics. After that I'm going to start looking at the scope for this project that I have in my mind...

I have already contacted a friend of mine who is an entrepreneur. Hopefully he will be able to school me in the basics of business.

This thread is a tool to gather advice and opinions. I want to know what people would be willing to shell up for. I am using your collective brains to speed up filling my mind map, and to point out stuff that might not occur to me.

Right now, I'm leaning heavily toward creating original titles instead of porting.

[P4man]

Making modern games is a lot like making movies. It takes a lot of talented people with specialised skills as well as a skilled director. It usually takes a team of a dozen or more people several years (and a few million dollar). Unless you intend to build the next tetris clone, I think you are massively underestimating the scale of things here. The time a talented programmer could build a blockbusting game in his garage in a few weeks alone or with 2 friends is long past us.

[forrestcupp]

I am utterly clueless! :D

Right now, I'm leaning heavily toward creating original titles instead of porting.

You're getting yourself into something that is a lot bigger than you realize. There is a lot that goes into the creation of a quality game. There is no way you are going to make commercial grade games by yourself, unless you're allotting yourself about 3 years per title or more. Even some of the bigger commercial games that have a whole team of professional developers have taken a couple of years to make.

After you work out the concept and story of your game, you'll need coders, level layout designers, modeler/animators, environment/terrain artists, texture artists, GUI designers, sound effect and ambient sound creators, musicians and sound engineers. Then you'll need distributors, promoters, cover designers, people to take care of web sites and marketing. For commercial quality games, the list goes on and on. When professional people dedicate that kind of time into a commercial project, they don't work for free.

It's possible, but it's going to take you several years of hard work in learning stuff before you are ready to even post a thread like this.

[Frak]

<snipped for great justice!>


Making modern games is a lot like making movies. It takes a lot of talented people with specialised skills as well as a skilled director. It usually takes a team of a dozen or more people several years (and a few million dollar). Unless you intend to build the next tetris clone, I think you are massively underestimating the scale of things here. The time a talented programmer could build a blockbusting game in his garage in a few weeks alone or with 2 friends is long past us.


You're getting yourself into something that is a lot bigger than you realize. There is a lot that goes into the creation of a quality game. There is no way you are going to make commercial grade games by yourself, unless you're allotting yourself about 3 years per title or more. Even some of the bigger commercial games that have a whole team of professional developers have taken a couple of years to make.

After you work out the concept and story of your game, you'll need coders, level layout designers, modeler/animators, environment/terrain artists, texture artists, GUI designers, sound effect and ambient sound creators, musicians and sound engineers. Then you'll need distributors, promoters, cover designers, people to take care of web sites and marketing. For commercial quality games, the list goes on and on. When professional people dedicate that kind of time into a commercial project, they don't work for free.

It's possible, but it's going to take you several years of hard work in learning stuff before you are ready to even post a thread like this.

These

Also, don't start with a book about game programming, start with a book about physics. TRUST ME, you'll need it.

[forrestcupp]

Also, don't start with a book about game programming, start with a book about physics. TRUST ME, you'll need it.

And advanced math, unless you're going to use a pre-existing engine that takes care of 3D space for you.

[Frak]

And advanced math, unless you're going to use a pre-existing engine that takes care of 3D space for you.
I'll also have to tag Discrete math along with it.

[blueturtl]

I know commercial grade games are big projects... not the sort of thing a lone programmer would tackle. That's why the thread is about potentially starting a company to do this. I know I'd need others to get started. This is also why I have a thread on the Ubuntu-Forums instead of job ads in the newspaper thus far. I'm a beginner and I know that. I seek other beginners. People who'd want to do what I want to do, but are just as unqualified as I am in their prospective careers.

I will be fleshing out a real idea for a game and when that is done, I will start planning the business to make it happen. I will look at how many artists, programmers etc. would be needed to make it on a timely basis, what kind of money it would require. I have taken courses on software development, so I know at least in theory how this thing is supposed to go.

If I were to release the games themselves as Open-Source, I could use what the community provides as parts for the game. I could use a ready made 3D engine for example. Why go to the trouble of doing what someone else has already done? There will be plenty of work in the mechanics and AI part of the game, not to mention content creation.

It doesn't have to be a Hollywood budget game to be great. Aiming for staying afloat and having a game out would be a good first goal. If the game is great, I will have created a market for myself. The hard part is that the game has to compare to what people would buy Windows for, or use Cedega or WINE for. Why play a poor man's clone, when with a bit of a fiddle you can have the "real thing". Most of the time.

I'm not that idealistic, but I do believe there is a market for games in the Linux user base, and many users would probably gladly fund a company that made games exclusively (or also) for Linux.

[praveesh]

To by best knowledge , codeweavers is working with the same objective . They help porting windows applications to linux with the help of wine . And there is no need of disclosing the source code .

[praveesh]

I know commercial grade games are big projects... not the sort of thing a lone programmer would tackle. That's why the thread is about potentially starting a company to do this. I know I'd need others to get started. This is also why I have a thread on the Ubuntu-Forums instead of job ads in the newspaper thus far. I'm a beginner and I know that. I seek other beginners. People who'd want to do what I want to do, but are just as unqualified as I am in their prospective careers.

I will be fleshing out a real idea for a game and when that is done, I will start planning the business to make it happen. I will look at how many artists, programmers etc. would be needed to make it on a timely basis, what kind of money it would require. I have taken courses on software development, so I know at least in theory how this thing is supposed to go.

If I were to release the games themselves as Open-Source, I could use what the community provides as parts for the game. I could use a ready made 3D engine for example. Why go to the trouble of doing what someone else has already done? There will be plenty of work in the mechanics and AI part of the game, not to mention content creation.

It doesn't have to be a Hollywood budget game to be great. Aiming for staying afloat and having a game out would be a good first goal. If the game is great, I will have created a market for myself. The hard part is that the game has to compare to what people would buy Windows for, or use Cedega or WINE for. Why play a poor man's clone, when with a bit of a fiddle you can have the "real thing". Most of the time.

I'm not that idealistic, but I do believe there is a market for games in the Linux user base, and many users would probably gladly fund a company that made games exclusively (or also) for Linux.

Why should the people here work for you?

[Paqman]

I know I'd need others to get started. This is also why I have a thread on the Ubuntu-Forums instead of job ads in the newspaper thus far. I'm a beginner and I know that. I seek other beginners. People who'd want to do what I want to do, but are just as unqualified as I am in their prospective careers.

???

If it's a small company, surely you'd want highly experienced, multi-skilled people? Using amateurs because they're cheap would, IMO, be a false economy. You'd need at least a cadre of people who have existing contacts, and can bring some experience to the table.

[blueturtl]

Why should the people here work for you?

Another excellent question. One to which I hope I will have a good answer to soon enough. :)

I have given this a lot of thought. Businesses are run top-down most of the time, meaning someone gets to make the decisions while others don't. In Open Source projects, members of the project are more like co-workers I guess, where everything is deliberated on as a group.

Can the two be fused? Someone already pointed out the "too many chefs in the kitchen" problem that Open Source projects sometimes suffer from. A commercially viable game company should no doubt have leadership. The vision or strategy of the game company should not be diluted. By having posted this thread I assert that I have a vision or idea(s) and that I'm qualified for leadership.

So would I make a good director / manager? I'm not even sure of it myself. It's not in my nature to boss people. I'd much rather be a co-worker, but if I were just a worker, I would get no say in company policy. I need to have a say if I want to ensure that the end-product would be delivered for Linux and if I believe my idea(s) for a game to be better than someone else's.

To run a company and especially one operating in Open Source method, I would prefer to have the trust of the employees. A paycheck will get you workers, but ones that don't necessarily share your ideas or vision.

If I say I have an eye for marketing, for detail and a grand plan, those are all just words if I don't have anything to show for them. Before I have a more detailed plan to post, I don't have a proper answer to your question, I'm sorry.

The market isn't coming to us. We have to make the market. If you want the kinds of games that are only available to Windows right now, we will have to make them ourselves. A hobby project isn't going to cut it, it needs to be commercial. It's the only way to ensure comparable quality. This is what I believe. If there was someone else starting a Linux game company, I would consider working for them rather than leading the pursuit myself, but I haven't stumbled on a project like that.

[blueturtl]

???

If it's a small company, surely you'd want highly experienced, multi-skilled people? Using amateurs because they're cheap would, IMO, be a false economy. You'd need at least a cadre of people who have existing contacts, and can bring some experience to the table.

Can I really expect to get any professionals, as an amateur with a start-up?

Of course I'd expect people with a passion for what they do, with potential to evolve and become professionals. I know I'm not a particularly good programmer or leader right now, but I could well become one if I have the drive and motivation to do it.

edit:


The time a talented programmer could build a blockbusting game in his garage in a few weeks alone or with 2 friends is long past us.

I think the biggest obstacle today isn't the lack of people with adequate skills. Actually writing the game is fairly trivial today. There are free and mature toolkits available, even ready made engines and technologies for people to use. It's just that someone has to bring this stuff together to make something extraordinary. A big game has to be planned meticulously and marketed aggressively. It's a concentrated effort.

We have a lot of small clone games in the repositories because of this. As a developer if I wanted to play Space Invaders, I would no doubt be looking into making it myself. If I wanted Half-Life, it would be out of the skope of a hobby project and thus it probably wouldn't happen, unless you really badly wanted it.

That's where I am. I really badly want to game on Linux and I'm looking at what it would take to make that happen. Porting would bring me existing games, but as others in the thread have already pointed out it would be a loosing business for me if the author of the game actually wanted to do it, and a losing game for me again if they didn't.

[mivo]

Can I really expect to get any professionals, as an amateur with a start-up?

Unless you have the means to pay them a professional salary, or they are out of work and you can offer them a strong vision (including, perhaps, a share of the company), no, probably not.

Have you considered working on, or starting, an open source project first? This would gain you experience and contacts.

[blueturtl]

Unless you have the means to pay them a professional salary, or they are out of work and you can offer them a strong vision (including, perhaps, a share of the company), no, probably not.

Have you considered working on, or starting, an open source project first? This would gain you experience and contacts.

I suspect that's how it's going to start rolling. I'm going to have to go into production with what I believe will sell, and later form the company around it if it gains traction.

[P4man]

Another excellent question. One to which I hope I will have a good answer to soon enough. :)

I have given this a lot of thought. Businesses are run top-down most of the time, meaning someone gets to make the decisions while others don't. In Open Source projects, members of the project are more like co-workers I guess, where everything is deliberated on as a group.

Can the two be fused? Someone already pointed out the "too many chefs in the kitchen" problem that Open Source projects sometimes suffer from. A commercially viable game company should no doubt have leadership. The vision or strategy of the game company should not be diluted. By having posted this thread I assert that I have a vision or idea(s) and that I'm qualified for leadership.

So would I make a good director / manager? I'm not even sure of it myself. It's not in my nature to boss people. I'd much rather be a co-worker, but if I were just a worker, I would get no say in company policy. I need to have a say if I want to ensure that the end-product would be delivered for Linux and if I believe my idea(s) for a game to be better than someone else's.

To run a company and especially one operating in Open Source method, I would prefer to have the trust of the employees. A paycheck will get you workers, but ones that don't necessarily share your ideas or vision.

If I say I have an eye for marketing, for detail and a grand plan, those are all just words if I don't have anything to show for them. Before I have a more detailed plan to post, I don't have a proper answer to your question, I'm sorry.

The market isn't coming to us. We have to make the market. If you want the kinds of games that are only available to Windows right now, we will have to make them ourselves. A hobby project isn't going to cut it, it needs to be commercial. It's the only way to ensure comparable quality. This is what I believe. If there was someone else starting a Linux game company, I would consider working for them rather than leading the pursuit myself, but I haven't stumbled on a project like that.


There are hundreds of game studio's all over the world where professional, experienced programmers, 3D modellers, art designers, level designers, sound engineers etc work, yet they fail miserably finishing their game, or they fail bringing their games to market, or they fail grandiosely to make a buck when they do manage to get it out.. Those studio's not only have the skill and experience you lack (and which Im sorry to say, you cant not acquire as an individual in a few years), they are also targeting a market which is probably 100x bigger than the market you are eyeing (windows gamers vs linux only gamers). The chances you will succeed with your background are somewhere between zero and 1/infinity. . And that will be obvious to any potential investor, any potential distributor, any potential employee resulting you end up on the left side of that scale ;)

Even if your name was John Carmack Id have serious doubts about your business plan, and you'll never be John Carmack any more than I will be the next Bill Gates or the next Michael Jackson.

If this is something you feel you have to do because its want you want to do, then get a daytime job to pay the bills and start participating in any of a countless opensource game projects out there. You will learn a whole lot (and Im sure drop your fantasy), you will contribute to linux as a viable gaming platform, you will make contacts with people who have the skills and experience. Who knows someday something grows from there, but Im not holding my breath.

Your only hope I think is coming up with a game concept that is easy to write, not a state of the art visual 3d game with physics, but something that is still addictive like ogame (http://ogame.org/), some board games or hey, bejeweled. That would be feasible (though unlikely make you much money), writing the next Call Of Duty, is not.

[blueturtl]

If this is something you feel you have to do because it's want you want to do, then get a daytime job to pay the bills and start participating in any of a countless open source game projects out there. You will learn a whole lot (and I'm sure drop your fantasy), you will contribute to Linux as a viable gaming platform, you will make contacts with people who have the skills and experience. Who knows someday something grows from there, but I'm not holding my breath.

You're almost coming off a little cynical.

What am I to make of the poll results so far?

I know it doesn't take a lot of commitment to vote or sign a petition online. How many of those 20 000 people who signed the StarCraft 2 petition would be willing to shell for a native Linux RTS?

There is no such thing as a risk-free business. All professionals are amateurs first etc. etc. I appreciate everyone's input, encouraging and discouraging alike. It's good food for thought.

[ikt]

It's a great idea but this isn't 1994, you can't make a $2 game and expect it to sell well.

[P4man]

You're almost coming off a little cynical.


When my 6 year old godson tells me he will become am actor or a rockstar, I'll nod and encourage him, make him take music lessons and praise his talents. Ill even buy him a guitar. But when he's 25 and decides to quit university to start a rockband and become the next U2, despite never having written a song in his life, never having held a guitar or have any singing talent, saying he'll just rely on yet-to-be-found talented band members to make the actual music, or learn to play the guitar himself, then Ill talk sense in to him.

You're not 6 anymore.


I know it doesn't take a lot of commitment to vote or sign a petition online. How many of those 20 000 people who signed the StarCraft 2 petition would be willing to shell for a native Linux RTS?


Maybe all of them. So? How many man hours did you think it cost to make starcraft2? (lets not mention "SC3" or 4 which your game would be compared to.

Have you ever heard of Daikatana and John Romero? This might be an eye opener:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daikatana#Development

Now those people had tons of experience and talent (they made Wolfenstein and Quake after all), The production budget was well over 40 million dollars. This is a 1998 era game. You really think you and some yet-to-be-found bandmembers are going to do better in 2010 with no money, no blockbusting game concept in your mind yet, not the least bit of coding experience, no proven talent or experience whatsoever in artwork, sound, music, leveldesign, gameplay, marketing, not even game testing ...?

Really.

edit: some numbers to chew on should you be writing your businessplan:
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_costs

[mivo]

edit: some numbers to chew on should you be writing your businessplan: http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_costs

Well, there are games like Vendetta Online that were created by just a handful people and that have been running for five years now. The indie game "Depths of Peril" was mostly done by one programmer and a number of temporary contractors. DoP hasn't sold like huge commercial titles, but it has managed to pay the contractors and allows David to live from it. Spiderweb Software is just two people (or used to be, but pretty sure they are still so small) and have been making money with sub-par looking games since the 90s.

None of them has just been making Linux games, though. Or even have a Linux client (I think Spiderweb has one, David has none but was interested, and Vendetta has one). Windows and Mac are better platforms, simply because there are more potential customers, so even a small project may make enough money.

[P4man]

Dont get me wrong, I dont want to diss these people's achievement in any way, as I understand it takes skill and talent and a lot of effort to do what they do. But games like this:

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7290/gf5startingout.th.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/gf5startingout.jpg/)

While possible very fun and addictive (heck most of the best games where written in the 90s), these are not the sort of games that, if ported to or developed for linux, will change linux reputation as a gaming platform. Its not the kind of games the OP had in mind, though I agree, it should be the scope and type of games that might be achievable in less than a decade if you have yet to write your "hello world". And it would be a tall order even.

[mivo]

The screenshot is from a Spiderweb game, isn't it? ;) I agree, though. I bought a couple of their games (Exile) in the 90s, and enjoyed them, but I can't get into them anymore. I sort of draw the line at games made with this century's graphics. I can play Diablo 2 just fine, but Diablo 1 is already crossing the line. They still make a living, though, probably because of the customer base that grew over the past 15+ years and that is loyal to the developer. Many Mac users among them.

Depths of Perils is actually enjoyable. The graphics aren't top-notch, but they work. I should probably add that the guy who did it worked in the game industry before and worked on major titles, so he had game programming/design experience and contacts to the people he contracted for music and art. (Screenshots (http://www.soldak.com/Depths-of-Peril/Screenshots.html))

I think the quality is sufficient to sell a game, at least for Windows because of the larger market, so it is easier to get the absolute numbers to make a living, even if the percentage is tiny. To achieve the same in Linux, you would need to attract a much higher percentage of Linux users to sell the same number of copies.

[P4man]

You gave me an idea. Even a good idea if I may say so myself.

Rather than being negative, lets be positive.
If you claim the linux gaming market is viable for big game developers, then prove it to them. Not by making a game yourself, but rather... get those 20.000 starcraft petitioners to donate $20. Put the money in a trust. Contact blizzard (or whoever develops it) and tell them if they do a linux native port, you will pay $400.000. If it gets done, everyone that donated gets a $20 rebate if they purchase the game, if it doesnt get done, everyone gets their money back (or you ask them permission to use it to push for the next game).

So you have zero risk for the gamer, a significantly reduced risk and even incentive for the publisher (who you think underestimates the market potential) and you break the chicken egg problem.

Now all you need is for those 20.000 linux gamers to be willing to put up $20 (and hope 400k is enough to entice Blizzard)

[mivo]

I know I wouldn't want to deal with the administrative effort that this would require! The book keeping, deal with backcharges, then later shipping 20,000 copies at a reduced price, or having to re-pay $20 to thousands of people if things don't work out (plus the fees involved). There are probably legal and tax concerns too. You'd definitely need a lawyer.

(Okay, I feel bad for sounding negative. If you don't try, you fail by default!)

[P4man]

I know I wouldn't want to deal with the administrative effort that this would require! The book keeping, deal with backcharges, then later shipping 20,000 copies at a reduced price, or having to re-pay $20 to thousands of people if things don't work out (plus the fees involved). There are probably legal and tax concerns too. You'd definitely need a lawyer.

(Okay, I feel bad for sounding negative. If you don't try, you fail by default!)

Should all be automatic of course, using paypal or whatever. I havent searched for it but I would expect a platform for something like that already exists (if not, perhaps I should build one lol).

Either way, making something to manage payments and purchase would seem quite a lot more achievable as building your own starcraft.

edit: 2 minutes of googling gives me this:
http://www.itforcharities.co.uk/secure.htm

[blueturtl]

You gave me an idea. Even a good idea if I may say so myself.

Rather than being negative, lets be positive.
If you claim the linux gaming market is viable for big game developers, then prove it to them. Not by making a game yourself, but rather... get those 20.000 starcraft petitioners to donate $20. Put the money in a trust. Contact blizzard (or whoever develops it) and tell them if they do a linux native port, you will pay $400.000. If it gets done, everyone that donated gets a $20 rebate if they purchase the game, if it doesnt get done, everyone gets their money back (or you ask them permission to use it to push for the next game).

So you have zero risk for the gamer, a significantly reduced risk and even incentive for the publisher (who you think underestimates the market potential) and you break the chicken egg problem.

Now all you need is for those 20.000 linux gamers to be willing to put up $20 (and hope 400k is enough to entice Blizzard)

Somehow I doubt any estimates for profitability that we come up here speculating would beat those Blizzard actually got by beta testing WoW for Linux. They decided not to release WoW which as we know probably trumps any RTS title in popularity, including StarCraft. Even people who don't like games play WoW. If there aren't enough users (in Blizzard's mind) to support WoW for Linux, then I doubt they'd be swayed by such a scheme. $400 000 is a lot of money, and having that money to put up front would make an impressive case for Linux gamers. Dangling money in front of the developers was what I suggested in the original thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2698931#post2698931).

I suppose the thing to do would be to mail the guy who created the petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/ibpfl/petition.html) with this idea. He already has the contact info for all the people who signed I think.

[Vadi]

Good stuff. I do think you'd better off start by offering porting services.

[mivo]

$400,000 isn't much to a large company such as Blizzard. It seems impressive, but consider how much money they made, and still make, with their other products, it is pretty much "peanuts".

[dragos240]

If you're going to port games that are being sold, look out for lawsuits.

[P4man]

Somehow I doubt any estimates for profitability that we come up here speculating would beat those Blizzard actually got by beta testing WoW for Linux.

Thats the point. Either you are right and the market is bigger than blizzard&co think it is, and big enough to make money on a port of a hugely popular game: In that case you should be able to raise at least a non trivial portion of the cost of porting to entice Blizzard. Or porting is so hard/expensive compared to the potential market that its not worth it, And that would clearly prove your business model has no chance of ever succeeding - if even the people with the skills and with the experience with their own hugely popular game cant make money porting it, then you certainly can't (let alone doing not only the port, but also the entire multi million $ development).


I suppose the thing to do would be to mail the guy who created the petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/ibpfl/petition.html) with this idea. He already has the contact info for all the people who signed I think.

Yeah why not. Brainstorm over it, the execution Im sure wouldnt be as simple as I wrote, but its worth thinking about. I doubt it will work but at least it might have a chance and its realistic to try -and it would be hugely interesting to get the numbers, both how much you could raise from linux gamers and how much it would take for blizzard to take note.

BTW, probably a lot more feasible would be to apply the same idea to having SC be properly compatible with wine. That is probably something relatively cheap/easy for blizzard to obtain and getting just, I dont know, $50-100k guaranteed sales might make them look at it. Think of it as a first step.

[blueturtl]

I have mailed the petition creator, Sean Tilley about the idea of creating a trust and using it to tempt Blizzard.

Meanwhile I have also given more thought to the game company idea.
I'm probably going to do a more elaborate mapping of the potential market with a questionnaire of some sort. It would help me establish an idea of what the Linux game market really is about, what it is lacking and what the chances for financial success are.

[Khakilang]

Its a great idea to create games for Linux as it will attract user from all level. Right from the serious coder down to business and now to leisure. But you have to do it for all the Distro for a wider market segment.

[blueturtl]

Thats the point. Either you are right and the market is bigger than blizzard&co think it is, and big enough to make money on a port of a hugely popular game: In that case you should be able to raise at least a non trivial portion of the cost of porting to entice Blizzard. Or porting is so hard/expensive compared to the potential market that its not worth it, And that would clearly prove your business model has no chance of ever succeeding - if even the people with the skills and with the experience with their own hugely popular game cant make money porting it, then you certainly can't (let alone doing not only the port, but also the entire multi million $ development).

Have you considered that the market may be large enough for a game company that's smaller than Blizzard? I do have high hopes and probably even illusions of grandeur, but if I were to start a company -- I suspect it would employ maybe 10-20 people (and that if things really got rolling). Blizzard is one of the biggest names in the industry.

[ikt]

Have you considered that the market may be large enough for a game company that's smaller than Blizzard? I do have high hopes and probably even illusions of grandeur, but if I were to start a company -- I suspect it would employ maybe 10-20 people (and that if things really got rolling). Blizzard is one of the biggest names in the industry.

10-20 is pretty massive, a majority of businesses are < 5 people.

http://www.census.gov/epcd/www/smallbus.html

Currently as far as I can see the best game for linux currently in development is Heros of Newerth, so these guys and girls probably could send some tips and advice our way. Would be nice if we could invite one of them to respond to this thread.

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9100


Ultimately, including support for Linux adds more expense, frustration in terms of getting things working, project management and support efforts and costs, which makes the fact that none of the S2 Games staff are actually Linux users particularly interesting.


Savage had an incredibly small development team: 3 full time programmers along with 3 full time artists, 2 contractors, and execs.

[Dougie187]

What about world of goo?

[blueturtl]

10-20 is pretty massive, a majority of businesses are < 5 people.

That's why I said if things really start rolling.

In the beginning I would suspect the layout to be something like this:

web design & distribution - 1 person
graphics design & implementation 1-2 people
sound design, recording & mixing 1-2 people
programming, packaging and related design 1-2 people

Considering that people can take on multiple roles, you're probably right: it wouldn't be more than five people unless it became really big.

[Frak]

What about world of goo?
IIRC one person.

[blueturtl]

I have not received any word from the petition creator, so I'm slowly going ahead with my plan.

First stage is getting to know my target market.

Please answer this questionnaire (http://www.esurveyspro.com/Survey.aspx?id=aa3c679c-fa80-497a-bb67-0934b3b2a3c2) if you want to help me come up with a viable plan for the first company product. :)

It's only ten questions, so it shouldn't take long.

[Arthur_D]

Good questionnaire, but the difference between euros and dollars is so big that you should rather stick to one of them instead.

[blueturtl]

Good questionnaire, but the difference between euros and dollars is so big that you should rather stick to one of them instead.

Thank you for pointing that out. The reason I went with the exchangeable currency symbol was that it might be easier for people to relate to a number if it were in their own currency. Having converted currencies listed would result in odd numbers like "$11.43". I did not want that.

I wanted nice round numbers, because that's what people find when they actually go shopping.

[matthewbpt]

There is already a company dedicated to porting Games to Linux, http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com/ . I haven't bought anything yet but I've heard that their ports are of very good quality.

[PhoenixMaster00]

Dude if you want this to succeed you gotta think completely outta the box first and firstly in no way hire 10-20 people. Sure it may sound helpful but you have no generated income and twenty peoples wages will be a lot (as well as other stuff on top of that). Infact a lot of people dont even pay themselves for awhile.

Secondly i would trawl the internet at current Linux games (the successful ones) and see what makes them successful. This should take a few months of solid work if done right. Of course you need peoples opinions as well so forums like this are great. After that you should hopefully hve a clear idea of what you want to achieve in the next year.

[Frak]

Agreeing with the post above me, you'll only need about 3-4 people, MAX, in the beginning stages. I can get a lot done by myself, add another person and I get twice as much done, three, three times as much, four, three times as much with code review. Put 20 in there and we start with a gun and end with a pot pie.

[fatcrab]

December 29TH ?

[Arthur_D]

Thank you for pointing that out. The reason I went with the exchangeable currency symbol was that it might be easier for people to relate to a number if it were in their own currency. Having converted currencies listed would result in odd numbers like "$11.43". I did not want that.

I wanted nice round numbers, because that's what people find when they actually go shopping.
Yeah, but when I looked up a currency converter to convert from the currency in my own country, it had quite some impact whether the target currency was euro or dollars. So what should I choose? You wouldn't know whether my vote was for euros or dollars, so you might believe I would be willing to pay more than I actually would.

[blueturtl]

That's why I said if things really start rolling.

In the beginning I would suspect the layout to be something like this:

web design & distribution - 1 person
graphics design & implementation 1-2 people
sound design, recording & mixing 1-2 people
programming, packaging and related design 1-2 people

Considering that people can take on multiple roles, you're probably right: it wouldn't be more than five people unless it became really big.

I'm quoting myself because I see no other way out of this. :D

[blueturtl]

December 29th ?

My bad. Shouldn't post when tired.

How can I expect to garner community support if I don't even know what day it is. :D

[blueturtl]

Yeah, but when I looked up a currency converter to convert from the currency in my own country, it had quite some impact whether the target currency was euro or dollars. So what should I choose? You wouldn't know whether my vote was for euros or dollars, so you might believe I would be willing to pay more than I actually would.

I understand and it was my mistake for not checking up the rates (last time I had to deal with it, dollar wasn't that far behind the euro). Editing the quiz now will lead in me losing the answers posted so far.

edit:

If you think I might get the wrong idea, use the more valuable currency as reference.

[Arthur_D]

If you think I might get the wrong idea, use the more valuable currency as reference.
Yeah, that was what I did.

Anyway, regarding what I think a game is worth, depends very much of how much I want to play it. If it's an awesomely looking FPS or MMORPG, I wouldn't care at all. I don't support game companies only because they make Linux games. But if it was a decently looking RTS or racing game with good gameplay, then I would probably pay quite a lot for it.
So, you should take into account that most people would only pay for your game if you made a game that's appealing to them, personally. Multiplying the votes with the amount the voters have stated they would be willing to pay, would give you false assumptions to say the least. ;)

[mivo]

Thank you for pointing that out. The reason I went with the exchangeable currency symbol was that it might be easier for people to relate to a number if it were in their own currency.

It makes people feel ripped off, though. $20 USD and €20 are nowhere near the same actual value. I've run into a few sites that sold stuff for the same "number", but in different currencies, to people. I didn't buy there. A better idea is to have something like $20 and €15, which still wouldn't be the current exchange rate, but it's much closer, and you still have "round" numbers.

[kilosan]

you dont need to start from scratch, you can buy or team up with existing linux games, improve it by funding it or setting up donation avenue to hire more talents, get students to be involved etc. then market it. you have to have a capital to get it rolling.

you can start with less costly graphical intensive games but goes more on story and battle systems like 2d rpg and 2d turn based strategy rpg.

there are a mere facebook browser game is earning more than a small gaming studio company. thats what gameplay, systems and marketing can do.

[Tipped OuT]

I think making some original titles for Linux would be great. It would give a people a reason to try Linux.

[Slug71]

Delta3D is coming to a PPA soon! :D

[blueturtl]

Yeah, that was what I did.

Anyway, regarding what I think a game is worth, depends very much of how much I want to play it. If it's an awesomely looking FPS or MMORPG, I wouldn't care at all. I don't support game companies only because they make Linux games. But if it was a decently looking RTS or racing game with good gameplay, then I would probably pay quite a lot for it.
So, you should take into account that most people would only pay for your game if you made a game that's appealing to them, personally. Multiplying the votes with the amount the voters have stated they would be willing to pay, would give you false assumptions to say the least. ;)

That's what the questionnaire is about, finding out what most of you want and/or would pay for. :)

The first game from the company should target the biggest feasible potential group of buyers. The success of the first game would then be used to fund future projects.


It makes people feel ripped off, though. $20 USD and €20 are nowhere near the same actual value. I've run into a few sites that sold stuff for the same "number", but in different currencies, to people. I didn't buy there. A better idea is to have something like $20 and €15, which still wouldn't be the current exchange rate, but it's much closer, and you still have "round" numbers.

You can rest assured despite my fumbling with the questionnaire, I have no intention of charging different amounts of money depending on where people live. The pricing would be in one currency.

[AllRadioisDead]

I'd love to see a game similar to gunbound.
Someone started something similar but I don't think it's being developed anymore and I didn't like the characters.

[jespdj]

... I haven't quite worked out a profit model yet, but suffice to say either my company would take a small slice of the selling price of a Linux copy of the game, or then we would be paid for the actual work only, supporting and patches, and possibly also via donations from the Linux gaming community. The game creator would essentially expand their market coverage to 100% (if they also support Macs) and avoid the nasty business of trying to support an X number of distros themselves.
If you want to start a company, one of the most important things to have is a business plan. You can't start a successful company if you have no idea how your company is going to make money.

Only a tiny fraction of computer users use Linux (maybe 1% or so?). Only a fraction of that fraction is likely to buy games. A commercial company cannot exist purely from donations. I don't think other game development companies care about Linux users, I doubt they will be interested in reaching the last percent of market coverage.

It would be nice if there were really good commercial games for Linux, but it sounds like you don't have a very strong business plan.

[forrestcupp]

You can rest assured despite my fumbling with the questionnaire, I have no intention of charging different amounts of money depending on where people live. The pricing would be in one currency.

The thing about this thread is that you are talking in such a way that makes it look like you're somewhat close to launching a company. Some people are probably thinking they'll be able to start buying games in a couple of months, and you're not even 5 years out if you start aggressively right now. The difference between commercial games and FOSS games is that commercial games have to be stable and ready at the time of release. People don't care if FOSS games are buggy because they're free and that's how they work. But if we're paying for games, they'd better be complete and stable.

Linux people are used to hearing about something and seeing it happen fast. I hope you can work this out, but everyone needs to know that you're not going to have anything on the market any time soon.

It will be cool if you can eventually get it worked out. I'm afraid you won't find it very profitable, though.

[blueturtl]

The thing about this thread is that you are talking in such a way that makes it look like you're somewhat close to launching a company. Some people are probably thinking they'll be able to start buying games in a couple of months, and you're not even 5 years out if you start aggressively right now. The difference between commercial games and FOSS games is that commercial games have to be stable and ready at the time of release. People don't care if FOSS games are buggy because they're free and that's how they work. But if we're paying for games, they'd better be complete and stable.

Linux people are used to hearing about something and seeing it happen fast. I hope you can work this out, but everyone needs to know that you're not going to have anything on the market any time soon.

It will be cool if you can eventually get it worked out. I'm afraid you won't find it very profitable, though.

I don't know how one might come up with the idea that I'd be releasing a game in just a few months. The thread is titled starting a Linux game company... which to me implies that there is no company as of yet, and even if there was, developing a game would take some time.

I can't really start active game development until I have enough data from the questionnaire to even know what kind of a game it would be, but that doesn't mean I can't look into the business portion of the venture right now... That is: a) What tools do I have at my disposal? b) How many people would need to be hired? c) How to finance the whole thing? and d) Practical issues of running and operating a company from where I am.

The biggest thing about this thread is the dream fueling it. There is no doubt about that, very little is actually happening at this point. However every obstacle that has been pointed so far is a problem with a solution to it. I just hope I don't make a total fool of myself in the process of learning. :)

[tadcan]

Its not open source yet, but will be soon. Most of the hard work has been done. Maybe you can build on that.

http://www.moddb.com/games/0-ad

Also game tunnel gives you an idea of the type of small indie games which money is being charged for.

http://www.gametunnel.com/

[Arthur_D]

That's what the questionnaire is about, finding out what most of you want and/or would pay for. :)
Well, then I'm screwed, since it seems like 80% of the linux game market wants either FPS's or RPG's of some sort or another. :p

[blueturtl]

Actually... according to the data so far it's pretty even between the top three categories.

I'll let you know RTS is one of the top three.

So don't give up hope just yet. :)

[Matthewthegreat]

Well, then I'm screwed, since it seems like 80% of the linux game market wants either FPS's or RPG's of some sort or another. :p

+1

I like RTS, puzzle, and TBS games the best! I don't play FPS or RPG games.

[Arthur_D]

Actually... according to the data so far it's pretty even between the top three categories.

I'll let you know RTS is one of the top three.

So don't give up hope just yet. :)
Nice! There are a couple of these already, but either they're Civilization clones, isn't history based at all (Warzone 2100), has a steep learning curve and bad gameplay (Widelands), or just isn't out yet (0A.D). I'd love to see more of a Settlers 3 or Age of Empires 2 type of RTS game. I'd gladly pay at least 40-50 dollars for something like that, provided it was decently well-made, with good LAN multiplayer support. ;)

[Slug71]

Delta3D is in the repo i spoke of earlier. :)

See- http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8420211#post8420211

[blueturtl]

Thanks for the info... there certainly is no shortage of tools. Delta3D, Ogre3D, Irrlicht... I guess I'll have to start experimenting. :D

Keep the replies coming, I've got almost a hundred filled surveys in just two days!

[newbuntuxx]

They say: the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

To resolve the "chicken/egg" conundrum, you don't need to start from scratch. You only need to get the existing Windows games to work on linux. Most of them do work already with WINE.

So, what you really need to do is create a company that would make commercial ******* games work better with WINE.

That should be your main goal: Making existing commercial Windows games (the big titles) work flawlessly with WINE on linux.

That is the fastest and shortest way to resolving the chicken/egg problem. It will increase the user base. THEN, when you have a large user base, you may consider developing a native linux game from scratch.

My 2 cents.

[forrestcupp]

Thanks for the info... there certainly is no shortage of tools. Delta3D, Ogre3D, Irrlicht... I guess I'll have to start experimenting. :D

Keep the replies coming, I've got almost a hundred filled surveys in just two days!

Since you're just starting, I recommend Irrlicht. It's extremely easy to use. I've programmed with Irrlicht3D & Ogre3D. Ogre3D is probably more full featured, but Irrlicht is very easy to use and it supports a lot more file formats. I haven't checked out Delta3D.

Of course you'll have to learn to program in C++ before you do any of that. I definitely think you're better off doing original titles instead of trying to get game studios to allow you to port their games.

[blueturtl]

They say: the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

To resolve the "chicken/egg" conundrum, you don't need to start from scratch. You only need to get the existing Windows games to work on linux. Most of them do work already with WINE.

So, what you really need to do is create a company that would make commercial ******* games work better with WINE.

That should be your main goal: Making existing commercial Windows games (the big titles) work flawlessly with WINE on linux.

That is the fastest and shortest way to resolving the chicken/egg problem. It will increase the user base. THEN, when you have a large user base, you may consider developing a native linux game from scratch.

My 2 cents.

The company is called Transgaming and their product is called Cedega.
Cedega does work much better than WINE to a degree, but it is still a hack. I agree that making WINE work flawlessly would do us all a big favor... but I just don't see it happening. Not without Microsoft opening up their code base.

[Firestem4]

I wish you luck in your endeavour. It won't be easy but you to have the determination and drive to do it.

I filled out your survey a day or two ago, and I would be curious if you would share the results sometime later. =)

[blueturtl]

There is no point in hiding the survey data and I'll gladly share it with others interested, especially if they want to make games for Linux.

It's just that before any conclusions can be made, I believe a certain amount of replies are required and I've got just a hundred replies. I want at least a thousand replies - so keep spreading the survey. :)

For now, without giving you exact figures I can say that it has been a surprisingly even ride (I mean that the relative amount of votes that go to each category has remained fairly stable from the start).

[killa.fr0gg]

My two cents:

Focus your goals on creating something unique and broad. If you're serious about this kind of a venture, you're gonna have a lot of ground to cover before you make a penny trying to play nice with preexisting companies. In the future you may earn the reputation necessary to perform that level of convincing, but what's the point? What you should do is create a "killer app" that utilises modern universal technologies that is capable of exposing your users to a new and desirable experience. From there you will be able to dip your toes into much scarier water!

I am looking forward to more projects like this (I consider them "sister projects" to my own: cross-platform language-learning software), and I know from experience that the investment is never what it appears to be, so make sure you keep your bearings straight as you hash out your plans.

Furthermore, if you can realise a cohesive progression model, I would be very interested in joining your project myself, as I'm sure many here would be. Please just remember to persevere! Nothing gets accomplished without that quality.

[Sin@Sin-Sacrifice]

I mostly agree with killa.fr0gg but in essence if you want to jump in head first with something people will like then I say go for it. As Bruce Lee would say "Be water my friend."

[u.b.u.n.t.u]

Survey completed and submitted.

Anyway all the best with this!

:popcorn:

[Ferrat]

I would say, going for eye-candy games is a big fat NO, to high cost and takes to much skill and money, however a game like Baldur's Gate with a bit better graphics might be possible, will still take time but the time is spent on content and not flash, also this game could then in theory be ported easier to for ex.
Android platform
Iphone
OpenPandora
etc and that way reach a bigger market, cost will be lower since if you make good dev tools from the start it should be fairly easy to have just a few guys working on making the world and besides classics like Fallout, Baldur's Gate and other really well made third-person RPG/Adventure-games are in really short supply and a market I think that is overlooked by bigger gaming-companies.

[alphaniner]

classics like Fallout, Baldur's Gate...

A large part of the success of FO and BG was the well developed engine and game mechanics. Such things are not so easy to develop from scratch.

[Ferrat]

A large part of the success of FO and BG was the well developed engine and game mechanics. Such things are not so easy to develop from scratch.

Not easy no, but not super hard either and much easier than going for the next ultra good looking games and game mechanics for games like that are fairly easy to get a good overview over, just go to you local tabletop and pen&paper RPG holding shop and see how they do it, I myself has written a few things like that back in the old days where computergames wheren't that common, all you need is a pen, paper and a dice and some fairly simple math, converting that to a computer game is actually not that advanced. =)

As for the Engine which will be most of the work ofc, almost any game worth anything will need a well created engine, you can't really get around that anyway :)

[Northsider]

Port mainstream games.

[u.b.u.n.t.u]

Looking from a somewhat different perspective, actually creating a Linux game engine may be worth considering. A game engine can also be licensed.

[blueturtl]

Happy new year everyone.

I've not received any word from Sean Tilley. Perhaps his spam filter caught my email since it was an "investment proposition". ;)

Anyway just letting everyone know I'm not dead and that the questionnaire is slowly gathering replies. I've made some contacts and have had some talks and so far it seems the best way to go about this would indeed be to just start it as a personal project and then see if it gains any interest. My friend in business said I don't even need to register a name for the company to start one and the payment I'd have to make would be on a yearly basis.

Worst case scenario is that I end up with a community project. Less ambitious than what I painted in the beginning but at least I'd be doing something I like. More games is always better, but would I be setting the bar too low? (rhetorical)

Let's see what 2010 brings...

[zine92]

Hello. Anyway i read through the post and i think you need to have a clear goal in what you wanted to achieve. Just because what people say doesn't mean it is not possible. No offence everybody. Anyway, i am a student pursuing my diploma in games design and development. 2 more yrs to complete BTW. Anyway, i wanted to just know if you need any kind of help. Instead of just saying our thoughts, i think it is better to say out the roadmap you have in mind and we can together make it to there. Just like how the Linux came a long way. If you need any form of help, though I am just still getting diploma, meaning no exp or whatsoever to programming and art, i am willing to spend some time studying up and helping if you need appreciate any help from this amateur. And Cheers. Good luck to whatever you plan to do. Stick with it, preserve and you will be there. And happy new year everybody.

[Sockerdrickan]

A company developing games specifically for Linux is a bad move since you probably use cross-platform technologies that may run your software on several major operating systems.

[aktiwers]

Just did the survey and looking forward to see what you end up doing blueturtl.

[alms66]

I think a Linux game company would be a great idea, though I didn't select one of "ports only" or "originals only", as I think you should definitely port popular games when and where you can - that will likely be your biggest money makers, but some originals would be nice too (though they are more of a gamble). I don't think it has to be either/or, it can be both.

[alexfish]

hi

done the questionnaire

Great Idea

[HangukMiguk]

How come Microsoft doesn't "bribe" companies to not release games for the Mac? WoW is available for Mac, for example.

Because, unless I'm mistaken, Microsoft still owns stock in Apple.

[Frak]

Because, unless I'm mistaken, Microsoft still owns stock in Apple.
Even moreso, Microsoft has a financial hook into Apple products. When you buy a Mac, Microsoft expects you'll buy Office to go with it.

[sedawk]

It might have been mentioned on the previous 16 pages,
but there was a company who ported games to Linux and
it didn't work out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki_Games

If want to play games on linux check out
http://www.happypenguin.org
http://spins.fedoraproject.org/games/

Just a few days back the Steam Platform started to
offer a client for MacOS, so you can now play some
games on MacOS and Windows. They still celebrate this by
offering the much acclaimed game Portal for free.
Why do I tell this? Because it was reported on some
gaming sites that the new steam client contains code
to run on linux, so they might work on a port (or did
so in the past).
Stay tuned ...

[murderslastcrow]

I can contribute some off-hand 3d models if you have a hard time finding workers/resources. You know, 'cuz I like games and Linux simultaneously. Of course, I think it'd be nice to get paid to make open source games, but unless I start a foundation it's not likely to happen.

Might as well just make one amazing game, sell it as a distro (Linux exclusive), get a bunch of people hooked, then release it for multiple platforms a year later, and use that money to keep a stable living while I make open source games. Heck, even open source the one I made tons of money off of- why not?

Ah, the dreams we have.

[andras artois]

This would be fantastic. Although with the method of control question I would rather be able to use a 360 or ps3 controller.

Add ons are pretty important. Being able to add new content to an old game will keep it alive for so much longer.

Gameplay on FPS' is way more important than the story whereas in RPG's the story needs to be on par with the gameplay...

Games like Portal, Half-Life and L4D are the most fun... \\:D/

I'd also be willing to pay 15 to 25 quid for games. Would go up to 30 if it was good enough.

Good luck and I hope you do well with it.

[Dkkline]

the only thing that keeps me from removing windows, is games!

also my friend would go Ubuntu if there where bigger game compatibility.

I think it would be a HUGE step for linux!, I would certainly go buy a linux game!

[jetsam]

And you are not alone! When buying something represents, we spend, don't we? It could be like 5 percent for the Linux Foundation along with a party plan...

$$$. It's better to think about it than be afraid of it. We unfortunately need to be marketing folk as well. Marketing is actually one of the funner departments, but they help each other through the lifestyle compromises usually by sabotaging each other's careers... At least that's the impression I get. We don't need that stuff, 'cuz we're largely volunteer anyways, and it's hard to beat a politeley phrased "DIY, and maybe I'll help too some time."

In other words, +1.