Sarcasm, irritability, and helping.

[Shibblet]

Ever read a post where someone is saying that they have a problem with Ubuntu, and the very next post in the thread is...

"Well then use Windows and stop complaining."

Why can't we be polite? Why can't we be helpful? Thumper the Rabbit from Disney's Bambi repeated what his mother told him...

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

I'm going to follow a personal philosophy, which is...

"If you can help, you have the obligation to. If you can't help, then offer what you can."

Now, I'm no saint, I've given my fair share of sarcasm back at people in the threads just as I've received my fair share. And in threads that are not "help" based, that's fine. But as far as help goes, we have a duty to assist people. It's part of the Open Source Philosophy. Contribute back.

[Sporkman]

"Wasilla, Alaska", eh? Now where have I heard of that town before...?

:P

[rattasongw]

long time i dont watch Bambi.how is he.

[koenn]

long time i dont watch Bambi.how is he.
he died.
sad ...

[nitstorm]

Ever read a post where someone is saying that they have a problem with Ubuntu, and the very next post in the thread is...

"Well then use Windows and stop complaining."

Why can't we be polite? Why can't we be helpful? Thumper the Rabbit from Disney's Bambi repeated what his mother told him...

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

I'm going to follow a personal philosophy, which is...

"If you can help, you have the obligation to. If you can't help, then offer what you can."

Now, I'm no saint, I've given my fair share of sarcasm back at people in the threads just as I've received my fair share. And in threads that are not "help" based, that's fine. But as far as help goes, we have a duty to assist people. It's part of the Open Source Philosophy. Contribute back.


Totally agree with u, esp for newbs like me who need as much and any help possible. cheers mate!!

[doas777]

I can be polite, when the op isn't typing in all caps in red 36pt, blaming a programmer because he didn;t read a message while partitioning, or when the op isn't calling me stupid and hypocritical for not calling it "gnu/linux".

if you get sarcasm or irritability from me, I'm likely reflecting your own back on you. reread your post and try again.

[The Funkbomb]

I think we need more context to the "Well then use Windows and stop complaining." quote.

In some instances, I can understand the sarcasm. If someone comes on here, doesn't try to learn anything and just wants answers (or to insult Ubuntu), I can understand why someone would be sarcastic, even if I don't condone it. Chances are, a person like this is never going to help someone out.

If someone makes an effort, then no, sarcasm is not called for.

[rattasongw]

well if they are telling their problem,i think people are ready to help.
but if they are telling their problem + whining + cringing + cursing + trolling,i think the responses will be full of sarcasm. -_-

[JBAlaska]

"Wasilla, Alaska" Is the new Taco bell open yet lol. I've been gone for 3 months and I miss the Valley.

[aysiu]

As long as we don't send mixed messages (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-linux-communitys-mixed-messages/), I'm fine with people saying "Then use Windows and stop complaining."

I just hope those people aren't the same ones writing the "Tired of your problems with Windows? Use Ubuntu" blog posts all the time.

[Shibblet]

In some instances, I can understand the sarcasm. If someone comes on here, doesn't try to learn anything and just wants answers (or to insult Ubuntu), I can understand why someone would be sarcastic, even if I don't condone it. Chances are, a person like this is never going to help someone out.

If someone makes an effort, then no, sarcasm is not called for.

I agree also. However, always try to take into account that most people don't know how to ask the right question.

I have also noticed that some people think that they will gain ground by bashing Windows in their remarks, or claiming they love Ubuntu.

Ubuntu is one of the only distributions that has "bashing" all over their official forums. That may be because other distributions are a little less user friendly... but I don't really know.


"Wasilla, Alaska" Is the new Taco bell open yet lol. I've been gone for 3 months and I miss the Valley.

As a matter of fact, it is... And Bagel's Alaska is going in right next to Carl's Jr. ;) Mmmm... Stone Fired Pizza.

Where are you now? Cordova? Juneau?

[gnomeuser]

Ubuntu is one of the only distributions that has "bashing" all over their official forums. That may be because other distributions are a little less user friendly... but I don't really know.

I have been around for 10 years (at least), it's Ubuntu right now. Before then it was Gentoo. Active debate follows current popularity. This is very true, I used to be a Fedora developer and I hung out here because it was the largest userbase and thus a higher chance of me talking with people with the same technical interests as me.

The one thing I have seen here that I have not seen elsewhere is very aggressive FSF supporters. The hatred of all things Microsoft also seems a bit more heated but I suspect that is also mostly because there are more users here and thus a larger chance of people with those opinions coming together.

[XubuRoxMySox]

That's the problem with newbies: They often don't know how to describe their issue or problem except, perhaps, in terms that may be more familiar to Windows or Mac users. It helps to "lurk," as I did for weeks here when I was a brand newbie, before ever posting. But sometimes when you're in a hurry or the issue is "mission critical," then you kinda sorta just have to say it the best way you can.

I still speak the language (it hasn't been very long since it was all I knew), so I always try to adapt my answer to the same language.

-Robin

[gnomeuser]

That's the problem with newbies: They often don't know how to describe their issue or problem except, perhaps, in terms that may be more familiar to Windows or Mac users. It helps to "lurk," as I did for weeks here when I was a brand newbie, before ever posting. But sometimes when you're in a hurry or the issue is "mission critical," then you kinda sorta just have to say it the best way you can.

I still speak the language (it hasn't been very long since it was all I knew), so I always try to adapt my answer to the same language.

-Robin

If it is mission critical, probably you should spend a bit of time reading over your question and ensuring that you understand what you are asking, for what purpose and what solutions would be acceptable. If you are still unsure, which is totally okay, expand and explain that you are unsure and these specific areas.

Lurking is probably not a bad idea, the best idea I suspect is finding your local LUG and hanging out with them. Go to an install party or ask on their mailing list if someone will help you get all of this working. People are far more friendly in real life and it is easier to explain what is your exact problem.

The place where I draw the line and don't see a problem actively just giving a best guess answer is on the undefined and unthought through non questions (aka "I wantz it to go OMFG fast and be allz aboutz teh bling").

If you don't invest the time to define your question, you shouldn't expect other people to invest time in answering it. It works the same in real life if I do to the grocery store and ask them "Which is the best fruit", I shouldn't be surprised at their response (if any).

[alphaniner]

The one thing I can't abide is when people ask broad questions about things which are covered by thousands of tutorials and how-tos. I don't care how simplistic I think a question to be, I will offer something helpful and sincere if it is specific. But when people ask "How do I partition my drive" and get uppity when they are pointed to a tutorial, it takes a whole lot of willpower for me not to say something at least moderately snooty. And I'm often found wanting.

[sliketymo]

Ok . Can you see Russia from your house ?

[Shibblet]

Ok . Can you see Russia from your house ?

Oh my god. She never said that.

[michaelzap]

Oh my god. She never said that.

She said that you could see it from "land in Alaska":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXL86v8NoGk

[Shibblet]

She said that you could see it from "land in Alaska":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXL86v8NoGk

This is what was said...


GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?

PALIN: They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.

and...


GIBSON: What insight does that give you into what they're doing in Georgia?

PALIN: Well, I'm giving you that perspective of how small our world is and how important it is that we work with our allies to keep good relation with all of these countries, especially Russia. We will not repeat a Cold War. We must have good relationship with our allies, pressuring, also, helping us to remind Russia that it's in their benefit, also, a mutually beneficial relationship for us all to be getting along.

By "next-door neighbors", she meant globally. Russia and Alaska are divided by the Bering Strait, which is about 55 miles at its narrowest point. In the middle of the Bering Strait are two small, sparsely populated islands: Big Diomede, which sits in Russian territory, and Little Diomede, which is part of the United States. At their closest, these two islands are a little less than two and a half miles apart, which means that, on a clear day, you can definitely see one from the other.

It's not like you can see downtown Moscow from here, but yes, you can see Russia from Alaska. The media really went to town with that so called "quote."

[Frak]

As long as we don't send mixed messages (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-linux-communitys-mixed-messages/), I'm fine with people saying "Then use Windows and stop complaining."

I just hope those people aren't the same ones writing the "Tired of your problems with Windows? Use Ubuntu" blog posts all the time.
That article is absolutely brilliant. Just about everything in there [that I argue] becomes "Frak is a troll!".

You should use Windows - "Frak is a troll!"
Windows has a higher marketshare than Linux for a reason - I don't care about marketshare and "Frak is a troll!"
Linux is hyped up by fanboys - "Frak is a troll!"
Windows is a really good Operating System - "Frak is a $hill!"

[wilee-nilee]

As long as we don't send mixed messages (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-linux-communitys-mixed-messages/), I'm fine with people saying "Then use Windows and stop complaining."

I just hope those people aren't the same ones writing the "Tired of your problems with Windows? Use Ubuntu" blog posts all the time.

I think the article is good but if you look at some of your conclusions they mirror what your describing as a binomial response set.

We are all subject to dichotomies in perception and opinions, it is the ability to reflect on what you say and adjust that is a higher brain function.

The only conclusion I find self evident in myself is that my perceptions are all projections of myself and a personal reality consequently they are flawed.

[chucky chuckaluck]

sarcasm makes the world go 'round.

[Frak]

sarcasm makes the world go 'round.
Sarcasm, money, comedians, and politicians from what I'm told.

[Tipped OuT]

I just don't like when sarcasm is used, when simply providing useful information could have been a better choice.

Example:


Hi, how do I download the Internet? Thanks.


You can download the Internet? :rolleyes:


You can't download the Internet. I think you meant how to download FROM the Internet. Well it's really simple, you see....

[Shibblet]

sarcasm makes the world go 'round.

Sarcasm is the sour cream of wit.

[Giant Speck]

Sarcasm, money, comedians, and politicians from what I'm told.

Frak is a $htroll!

[mikewhatever]

Ubuntu is one of the only distributions that has "bashing" all over their official forums. That may be because other distributions are a little less user friendly... but I don't really know.


Are you saying there is more bashing here because Ubuntu is more user friendly? Can one assume that becoming user unfriendly might stop bashing? Can you also suggest how many is 'the only' in 'one of the only'.

[etnlIcarus]

Thumper the Rabbit from Disney's Bambi repeated what his mother told him...

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."Yes, I believe Bambi is standard viewing in most ethics classes. /sarcasm, oops.


I think the article is good but if you look at some of your conclusions they mirror what your describing as a binomial response set.

We are all subject to dichotomies in perception and opinions, it is the ability to reflect on what you say and adjust that is a higher brain function.

The only conclusion I find self evident in myself is that my perceptions are all projections of myself and a personal reality consequently they are flawed.Thumper wouldn't practice sophistry. That's a bad Babmi.

[t0p]

Ubuntu is one of the only distributions that has "bashing" all over their official forums. That may be because other distributions are a little less user friendly... but I don't really know.


I'm not absolutely sure about this: but I'm pretty sure that Ubuntuforums.org is not an official forum.



I don't use other distros, so I don't visit their forums. But "bashing" is a pretty popular pastime on web forums (and in other online discussion media like IRC and Usenet). So I think it's to be expected to some extent.

Also, those posts that threaten "If you don't solve this problem for me I'm gonna go back to Windows" make many of us see red. As do those that say "Ubuntu is crap and so is this forum, I asked for help an hour ago and no one replied; so I'm gonna wipe Ubuntu from my hard drive and go back to Windows cos Windows users are friendly and helpful plus Windows just works..." Gah, just typing that has made me feel angry. Grrraaarrgh!!!

EDIT:
Whoops!! Seems I was wrong about the official status (or lack of) of Ubuntuforums.org. On the "About" (http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=about) page it says:


The UbuntuForums were created by Ryan Troy (ubuntu-geek) (http://moxiefoxtrot.com/) in October 2004 the forums quickly became a popular resource for Ubuntu and was deemed the Official Ubuntu forums in November 2004.

So Ubuntuforums.org is deemed to be the official Ubuntu forums. Well well. Learn something new etc.

[red_Marvin]

I just don't like when sarcasm is used, when simply providing useful information could have been a better choice.
It depends, in your examples the op might come across as ignorant, but not offensive, and that would deserve an answer imo. But if the question is phrased more like "X does not work with Y, but it works with Z, why cannot the Y devs get X to work!? Clearly this proves that Z is superior to Y." ...then I think a more appropirate answer would be "Well go back to Z then. Scoot!"


Are you saying there is more bashing here because Ubuntu is more user friendly? Can one assume that becoming user unfriendly might stop bashing? Can you also suggest how many is 'the only' in 'one of the only'.
It is possible that these forums that are percieved as less user friendly are also moderated more strictly.

[koenn]

I just don't like when sarcasm is used, when simply providing useful information could have been a better choice.

Example:

Example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by newLinuXuzEr
Hi, how do I download the Internet? Thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tipped OuT
You can't download the Internet. I think you meant how to download FROM the Internet. Well it's really simple, you see....


Problem with that is, you really have no way of knowing what this user "really" wants.

Maybe he actually wants to download the internet, for offline browsing, because he's on a crappy connection that breaks all the time.

Maybe he wants to install a browser. you know how some people don't distinguish between the internet and a web browser, and the first step to installing a program, to a windows user, is to go find it and download it.


...

Maybe he wants, as you say, to download FROM the internet, however, I find that unlikely, because all you'd have to do is click a link - if there's a downloadable file there the browser will offer to download it - surely he already knows how to do that ...


Although sarcasm is not really called for in this (rather mild) case, you still end up having to choose between giving an answer to what you think the question might be (and be wrong in your asssumption), or start asking questions to try and figure out what that poster meant.
I can understand how people get tired with that.

[aysiu]

Although sarcasm is not really called for in this (rather mild) case, you still end up having to choose between giving an answer to what you think the question might be (and be wrong in your asssumption), or start asking questions to try and figure out what that poster meant. So if you want to ask more questions, ask more questions.

If you can't be bothered, don't post anything at all.

A guess at what the poster might want could be helpful.
Follow-up questions clarify what the poster wants are likely to end up helpful.

But a dismissive sarcastic remark is definitely not helpful.

[koenn]

So if you want to ask more questions, ask more questions.

If you can't be bothered, don't post anything at all.

so, no other options ?




A guess at what the poster might want could be helpful.
Follow-up questions clarify what the poster wants are likely to end up helpful.

But a dismissive sarcastic remark is definitely not helpful.
maybe it will help the poster evaluate his post, learn form experience and ask better questions next time if alone to avoid a sarcastic remark ?
And with better questions, get better help faster ?

[aysiu]

maybe it will help the poster evaluate his post, learn form experience and ask better questions next time if alone to avoid a sarcastic remark ? "Thanks for your sarcastic remark. Now I know to ask questions better next time."

Nope. I've never seen that happen on the forums. Sarcasm doesn't make people ask better questions.

If you really want to be Pavlovian about it, offer help to those who ask good questions and ignore those who don't. Then people will ask good questions.

[koenn]

If you really want to be Pavlovian about it, offer help to those who ask good questions and ignore those who don't. Then people will ask good questions.
I do that already.
But there are still people asking quastions badly.
So encouraging the "good" ones by itself won't reduce the number of "bad" ones.

[Shibblet]

If you really want to be Pavlovian about it, offer help to those who ask good questions and ignore those who don't. Then people will ask good questions.

Did you just go doggy-style on us?

It's funny that you'd use that analogy, but it truly does fit the situation.

My only statement about the sarcasm, is that it is ~mostly~ welcomed in places like "The Community Cafe", but not needed in the "Help" sections.

[Frak]

Frak is a $htroll!
OH NOEZ i