What Ubuntu Really Needs Is .........

[Roger Allott]

Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a thread devoted to what ubuntu users would like to see in future versions of ubuntu (all flavours)?

Art this point in time, the feedback given to Canonical and the various groups of linux developers from users is almost completely bug reports (mainly launchpad) and queries about how to do stuff (mainly here). Of course, that information is vitally important, but there must be zillions of ideas out there that the ordinary non-developer user has to improve ubuntu.

If there is such a public feedback mechanism, please forgive me for raising a point that's already been covered, but the fact that I cannot find it suggests that it isn't promoted very well!

Anyway, I'll start the ball rolling with one of my suggestions. Please feel free to add yours or comment on those already made.

One of the major reasons for people being nervous about using linux is the perception that one needs to learn how to use the command line, and the knowledge that getting command line instructions wrong can be disastrous.

So, what we need, I think, is some sort of simple, user-friendly GUI app that allows someone to enter a piece of command line code (perhaps gotten on this forum in response to a query), and to have a response that is the command explained to them in clear, plain language.

Perhaps a little more challenging would be to do this in reverse. A user selects verbose, plain language commands from drop-down lists, prompted for any possible appends (e.g. -s, -i, etc.), again explained, and again prompted by drop-down box for any sensible parameters. I suppose this might be called a sort-of query builder, although the commands should of course include more than just those that query the system.

I think that with such an app, the world of ubuntu and linux could open to a heck of a lot more people.

[alphaniner]

There's Ubuntu Brainstorm (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/).


So, what we need, I think, is some sort of simple, user-friendly GUI app that allows someone to enter a piece of command line code (perhaps gotten on this forum in response to a query), and to have a response that is the command explained to them in clear, plain language.

This app already exists, it's called Firefox.

[drakkoss]

You may be right but my preference would be for a “click and install” or “click and execute” style of control over the operating system. The CL (command line) is what the Linux Gurus expect and look for and use on a day to day basis. But the “click and execute” behavior in an operating system is what everyone else expects. For that reason, I hope the developers of Ubuntu follow through with developing an extraordinarily simple OS for non developers to use in the future.

[QIII]

Synaptic, anyone?

Point, click, enjoy.

Applications, anyone?

Point, click, run.

[drakkoss]

I don't think I am picking up what you are laying down. DS

[Roger Allott]

This app already exists, it's called Firefox.

You're right, of course. That is exactly the sort of useless response that we get from developers who haven't got the first idea about building user-friendly software.

So can you think how we can get them to answer questions more sensibly?

[drakkoss]

I don't think I am picking up what you are laying down. ... "Would you care to explain your comment? I know that you are not suggesting that the average American is TOO STuPiD to use Linux ... RiGHT??? That is not what you were suggesting, RiGhT?

[Merk42]

You're right, of course. That is exactly the sort of useless response that we get from developers who haven't got the first idea about building user-friendly software.

So can you think how we can get them to answer questions more sensibly?

Okay, well isn't that what 'man' is for?

[mrboojive]

There is a place for people to put their ideas for new versions of Ubuntu: brainstorm.ubuntu.com. You can also file wishlist bug reports at Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu.

I think you are approaching the command line issue in the wrong way. First off, you can use man pages to find out what any command line command does. Just go to the command line and type "man whatever" and it tells you want the command does. Or as alphaniner said, you can just do a web search. But the real solution here is to not to educate people about the command line, it is to remove the misconception that Linux is all about the command line. With 99% of Linux problems, you don't need to use the command line to solve them. A lot of times you see people here on the forums give instructions that involve the command line, but that's just because it's faster to do it that way. An average user can already use Linux without ever touching the command line.

[drakkoss]

MAN ... it mean that you are too lazy to help people . RTFM (In linix it means , "Too self absorbed and too lazy to answer." ... LOL ...GL!!!

[alphaniner]

My point is, there are already sooooo many resources available, but there are apparently equally many people who just can't be bothered to use them. Why create another resource for them to ignore?

[Skripka]

You're right, of course. That is exactly the sort of useless response that we get from developers who haven't got the first idea about building user-friendly software.

So can you think how we can get them to answer questions more sensibly?

WTF does "user friendly" mean?

[howefield]

My point is, there are already sooooo many resources available, but there are apparently equally many people who just can't be bothered to use them. Why create another resource for them to ignore?

Harsh but oh so true..

[schauerlich]

What Ubuntu really needs is ........................................... MORE ELLIPSES!

[KiwiNZ]

A new direction and new philosophy.

[Roger Allott]

I think you are approaching the command line issue in the wrong way. First off, you can use man pages to find out what any command line command does. Just go to the command line and type "man whatever" and it tells you want the command does.
Well, I'd say that from my perspective, you're approaching it the wrong way. Let me give an example to explain why.

Imagine that you speak English very well, and do not speak French at all. You have absolutely no knowledge of any French words.

You are given advice that in order to learn French, you should enter any French word you like into a translator, and the corresponding English word will be shown.

Do you see the problem there? How would you whether certain character strings were valid French words or not? How long in practice would you spend typing in all possible character strings in the vague hope of randomly stumbling not only on one that's valid, but relevant to what you want to say/write in French?

[Roger Allott]

My point is, there are already sooooo many resources available, but there are apparently equally many people who just can't be bothered to use them. Why create another resource for them to ignore?

The point is, it would make far more sense to write help documentation in a way that users find easy to use than to write yet another volume of geek-speak that no one will ever read.

[alphaniner]

You would use apropos. No pun intended.

[Roger Allott]

But the real solution here is to not to educate people about the command line, it is to remove the misconception that Linux is all about the command line. With 99% of Linux problems, you don't need to use the command line to solve them. A lot of times you see people here on the forums give instructions that involve the command line, but that's just because it's faster to do it that way. An average user can already use Linux without ever touching the command line.
In that case, the education that you seem to be advocating is best taken by those who posit solutions to beginners' problems, wouldn't you agree?

[mrboojive]

Well, I'd say that from my perspective, you're approaching it the wrong way. Let me give an example to explain why.

Imagine that you speak English very well, and do not speak French at all. You have absolutely no knowledge of any French words.

You are given advice that in order to learn French, you should enter any French word you like into a translator, and the corresponding English word will be shown.

Do you see the problem there? How would you whether certain character strings were valid French words or not? How long in practice would you spend typing in all possible character strings in the vague hope of randomly stumbling not only on one that's valid, but relevant to what you want to say/write in French?

Did you read the rest of my post? My entire point was that you essentially do not ever need to use the command line. Furthermore, as other posters have pointed out, there are lots of resources in the world to help you learn how to use the command line.

[Roger Allott]

You would use apropos. No pun intended.

Was any sort of useful information transfer intended?

WTF is 'apropos'?

[Merk42]

Well, I'd say that from my perspective, you're approaching it the wrong way. Let me give an example to explain why.

Imagine that you speak English very well, and do not speak French at all. You have absolutely no knowledge of any French words.

You are given advice that in order to learn French, you should enter any French word you like into a translator, and the corresponding English word will be shown.

Do you see the problem there? How would you whether certain character strings were valid French words or not? How long in practice would you spend typing in all possible character strings in the vague hope of randomly stumbling not only on one that's valid, but relevant to what you want to say/write in French?

You originally asked for a GUI app where the person would type in the terminal command (foreign language) and it would output plain english (native language)

This is exactly what MAN does.

Though it seems in this most recent post you're asking for the exact opposite, as well as illustrating why it's not really feasible.

[alphaniner]

Was any sort of useful information transfer intended?

WTF is 'apropos'?

It is a command line tool to help you find a command using 'normal language'. The word is borrowed from French, I thought it was amusing...

But anyway, learning the command line is no where near as complex as learning a second language. Uhg, conjugation...

[Regenweald]

This app already exists, it's called Firefox.

There is another freely available tool that i used last year in conjunction with the aforementioned, when starting out with Ubuntu. It was called Google I believe, and more recently I have also been using a new one called Bing. Remarkable really.

Look at what i did:
Google: explanation of terminal commands in Ubuntu

Results:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsingTheTerminal
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=171507 (very good! I'll use this one)
http://fosswire.com/post/2008/4/ubuntu-cheat-sheet/
http://www.brighthub.com/computing/linux/articles/8729.aspx
http://ubuntulinuxhelp.com/friday-fun-useful-linux-terminal-commands-for-new-users/

[Skripka]

The point is, it would make far more sense to write help documentation in a way that users find easy to use than to write yet another volume of geek-speak that no one will ever read.

Ubuntu uses a forum-based support model...which is not a good idea. The Ubuntu Wiki doc is pathetic.

[sledge73]

What Ubuntu Really Needs Is .........Love!!!

[cariboo]

With so many new users starting to use Ubuntu and never having used anything else but Windows you have the analogy wrong.

It is more like us English speakers going to an Eastern European country and expecting everyone to speak English, so we don't have to learn the language.

In this case English speakers = Windows users.

We didn't learnt how to use Windows overnight, and you can't expect to learn to use Ubuntu overnight either.

[t0p]

Well, I'd say that from my perspective, you're approaching it the wrong way. Let me give an example to explain why.

Imagine that you speak English very well, and do not speak French at all. You have absolutely no knowledge of any French words.

You are given advice that in order to learn French, you should enter any French word you like into a translator, and the corresponding English word will be shown.

Do you see the problem there? How would you whether certain character strings were valid French words or not? How long in practice would you spend typing in all possible character strings in the vague hope of randomly stumbling not only on one that's valid, but relevant to what you want to say/write in French?

There is already a command that addresses this point - apropos.

It works like this. You want to know a particular command. You know it is to do with browsers.


t0p@phobos:~$ apropos browser
alien-arena-browser (6) - wrapper script to run the Alien Arena browser.
epiphany-browser (1) - simple to use web browser for GNOME
gnome-moz-remote (1) - remote control of browsers.
goad-browser (1) - Graphical GOAD browser
gthumb (1) - an image viewer and browser for GNOME
infobrowser (1) - read Info documents
kdcop (1) - A graphical DCOP browser/client
konqueror (1) - Web browser, file manager, ...
libsmbclient (7) - An extension library for browsers and that can be used...
lynx (1) - a general purpose distributed information browser for ...
sensible-browser (1) - sensible editing, paging, and web browsing
smbtree (1) - A text based smb network browser
viewres (1) - graphical class browser for Xt
w3m (1) - a text based Web browser and pager
www-browser (1) - a text based Web browser and pager
x-www-browser (1) - Web browser, file manager, ...
xfbrowser4 (1) - wrapper script to run user defined browser
t0p@phobos:~$


So now you can investigate those commands, by manpage or web search.

[Roger Allott]

You originally asked for a GUI app where the person would type in the terminal command (foreign language) and it would output plain english (native language)

This is exactly what MAN does.

So you're saying that there's a GUI application called 'man' somewhere on my system?? How do I start it?



Though it seems in this most recent post you're asking for the exact opposite, as well as illustrating why it's not really feasible.

What my OP made clear was the need for two-way translation from geek shorthand to legible language and vice versa.

[Xbehave]

You originally asked for a GUI app where the person would type in the terminal command (foreign language) and it would output plain english (native language)

This is exactly what MAN does.

Though it seems in this most recent post you're asking for the exact opposite, as well as illustrating why it's not really feasible.


man start=; fix=m kernel=v xorg="-" echo=r "$echo$fix" $xorg$kernel / (f changed to v to make it safe)
Is not going to help anybody, expecting users to read and understan man pages from the start is stupid. An easy sandbox/release interactive prompt would be appreciated by many (especially those who know we don't know anything) and a simple look up tool to lookup commands without risk of executing them would be nice for new users (the tool would HAVE to be GUI because any prompt can be escaped.



So you're saying that there's a GUI application called 'man' somewhere on my system?? How do I start it.
It's not what you want but, konqueror can display man pages in a gui

[QIII]

Getting instructions on many things is not entirely analogous to getting a translation of a particular word -- which is itself fraught with danger because words may take different meanings in different contexts even without the complexity of idiomatic expressions.

There is that on one level.

But this sort of instruction is not simple translation of "handschuh" = "glove".

What we are talking about here is more akin to an instruction manual on tuning up your 1972 MGB.

There is some expectation that you are aware of or familiar with the Solex side draft carburetor. A lengthy discussion of its design, history and method of operation is beyond the scope of a repair manual -- and such would clutter the manual to the point of making it useless.

People did not drop into the world familiar with the terms used in Windows. They learned them over time as Windows grew. So it was no great task to learn some small new tidbit once in a while and keep up.

"Windows instructions make sense to me" because "we" are used to Windows.

Linux distributions take some getting used to. Most people coming to Linux did not grow up with it. Getting fluent in a new language is not a simple matter of reading a book overnight and writing Pulitzer Prize winning poetry in your new language the next morning.

The terminal takes some getting used to. But there is generally very little reason for a novice to ever run across the terminal in a dark alley. No more reason than for the Windows user to use the command line. Most don't, of course.

There are plenty of books available for the Ubuntu novice, many of which, like Ubuntu, are free. There is this forum, with hundreds of tutorials.

They do expect you to know that a "bonnet" is a hood, which is what you look under to get at the twin Solexes -- and that you get to your spare tire out of the "boot".

[QIII]

It is more like us English speakers going to an Eastern European country and expecting everyone to speak English, so we don't have to learn the language.


Precisely.

[Merk42]

So you're saying that there's a GUI application called 'man' somewhere on my system?? How do I start it?

No it's command line, and I'm guessing you know that.

I'm all for GUI equivalents of CLI things, but how would a GUI be any easier to use when you're just typing up the command/description anyway??

[Skripka]

Dear Moderators,

The posts you just deleted from this thread, regarding certain posters asking rather obvious questions-and not consulting Google, WERE salient to this discussion about documentation and user habits. They may not have been the most polite--but they HIGHLIGHT the problems here.


The lesson here: When people cannot be bothered to Google a command-what more can you do?

[KiwiNZ]

Dear Moderators,

The posts you just deleted from this thread, regarding certain posters asking rather obvious questions-and not consulting Google, WERE salient to this discussion about documentation and user habits. They may not have been the most polite--but they HIGHLIGHT the problems here.


The lesson here: When people cannot be bothered to Google a command-what more can you do?

If you dont wish to answer a question , don't
Do not refer to google , it is rude and not helpful

And do not thread drift

Now back to the topic at hand please

[t0p]

I just want to say: I'm no guru. And I find some manpages difficult to understand. But a manpage and Google are enough to understand almost any command. I've used these tools ever since I was a newbie. And if anything, the available resources are better now.

As someone else said above: there's already a multiplicity of resources to provide the help needed. Does the OP really believe that, because some users can't be bothered to consult those resources, a new resource should be created to do the same thing?

I think a big problem with computer users is that they don't want to find things out. They want everything served up on a golden platter. And golden platters are in short supply...

[alphaniner]

Holy crap. Mods delete posts without so much as a 'how's your mother'?

[23meg]

So you're saying that there's a GUI application called 'man' somewhere on my system?? How do I start it?

System > Help and Support > Advanced Topics > Terminal Commands References (man pages).

[t0p]

If you dont wish to answer a question , don't
Do not refer to google , it is rude and not helpful

And do not thread drift

Now back to the topic at hand please


Referring to Google is an answer to the OP. Here's an extract from the OP:



So, what we need, I think, is some sort of simple, user-friendly GUI app that allows someone to enter a piece of command line code (perhaps gotten on this forum in response to a query), and to have a response that is the command explained to them in clear, plain language.


There already exists such a resource. It is Google. How is it rude to point that out?

[Xbehave]

The lesson here: When people cannot be bothered to Google a command-what more can you do?
In other words, RTFM, this isn't arch Linux we want to make things easy for new users so they don't have to read pages and pages of documentation before running a command.

In addition there are many situations where google will not turn up good results, lets exam google results (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=start%3D%3B%20fix%3Dm%20kernel%3Df%20xorg%3D%22-%22%20echo%3Dr%20%22%24echo%24fix%22%20%24xorg%24k ernel%20%2F&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) for my evil command, nothing on the front page warns you that I'm about to almost delete your root partition.

currently there is no command a new user would know (none that i know), that will warn you that I'm evil.

[Xbehave]

A GUI app that took a command, parsed it (use a loop until it's done for sure) then explained the command step by step would definitely be a useful tool for many, myself included as i cba to parse code with my brain when a program can do it for me.

I will give this a shot in python when i get a chance but it will be very tricky to safely parse potentially malicious user input.

[QIII]

currently there is no command a new user would know (none that i know), that will warn you that I'm evil.

Is there such a reference for Windows users using the command line?

[Xbehave]

Is there such a reference for Windows users using the command line?Is this relevant? Like at all? Who cares what windows does/doesn't do!

[Skripka]

If you dont wish to answer a question , don't
Do not refer to google , it is rude and not helpful


You're missing my point.

When beginners, in any area (be it computers or not), do not know how to help themselves in searching for answers to a problem-what more can you do?

-There are these forums of course (but they are insanely high traffic, and posts fall through the cracks easily). The downside of a highly successful and high traffic forum-that is your primary means of user support.

-There's a Wiki document (which tends to be out of date or incomplete or both)

-There are books. Lots of them at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc

-There are other websites (Psychocats comes to mind easily)

NONE of the above is perfect or all inclusive...but you'll note that the two official resources I listed up above have dramatic downsides. The Wiki is in dire need of help specifically.

But none of these will be found...unless someone goes to a search box at Amazon or Google etc. If someone does not take the initiative to find answers, there's not much you can do. And all the worrying about making more help resources for beginners is meaningless, because like all the other resources, they'll never find them.

...What more can be done to help people who don't know how to help themselves? In my graduate work, I took a course specifically on how to help my self find things that I wanted. I.e. search string formation, resources to refer to, etc-in order to narrow out search noise. But short of having MUSC836 Intro To Grad Studies as a pre-req to Ubuntu usage-what else is there to be done to help people help themselves?

[t0p]

currently there is no command a new user would know (none that i know), that will warn you that I'm evil.

You're right. Nor is there a GUI-based program that will warn me that you're evil. And I don't really see how there ever can be such a program. Unless I write a program that displays the sentence "Xbehave is evil".

[QIII]

In other words, RTFM, this isn't arch Linux we want to make things easy for new users so they don't have to read pages and pages of documentation before running a command.

No. And we should never answer that way.

But we certainly can, and should, say



I found a similar answer here: www.ubuntuforums.org/somepossibleanswerhere

You might want to give it a try. If you have trouble, post back.


That is, essentially, pointing out the proper page in the manual. But it is not dismissive.

Making each and every thing under the sun easy for new users would take turning back the hands of time to when Windows came out with their first GUI and letting everyone learn Linux the same way they learned Windows.

Baby steps.

Babies begin to learn English immediately, but few are really literate (if ever) before their twenties. To say anything meaningful, however, may take decades of life experience on top of that.

German kids are the same.

Wide spread Windows literacy -- read "easy for the user" -- has taken twenty years.

Unless and until you can create a machine that can parse and interpret the user's intent and wishes, there will be no such thing as "easy". Until then, there is only "learning".

We have all forgotten how badly we screwed up our Windows machines in the mid Eighties.

[Skripka]

In other words, RTFM, this isn't arch Linux we want to make things easy for new users so they don't have to read pages and pages of documentation before running a command.

In addition there are many situations where google will not turn up good results, lets exam google results (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=start%3D%3B%20fix%3Dm%20kernel%3Df%20xorg%3D%22-%22%20echo%3Dr%20%22%24echo%24fix%22%20%24xorg%24k ernel%20%2F&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) for my evil command, nothing on the front page warns you that I'm about to almost delete your root partition.

currently there is no command a new user would know (none that i know), that will warn you that I'm evil.

I'm about ready to add you to my ignore list.

What are you going to do? Index ALL of the malicious commands possible in Ubuntu and Linux, and make a Handy-Dandy HTML document that pops up whenever you go to type something without thinking about what you're doing? Kind of like Windows UAC, except more obnoxious and protective?

[t0p]

In my graduate work, I took a course specifically on how to help my self find things that I wanted. I.e. search string formation, resources to refer to, etc-in order to narrow out search noise. But short of having MUSC836 Intro To Grad Studies as a pre-req to Ubuntu usage-what else is there to be done to help people help themselves?

In my sig is a link to The Spider's Apprentice. That site contains valuable lessons on how to locate info on the web.

Anyone who wants to learn how to help himself could do a lot worse than click that link.

[Xbehave]

I'm about ready to add you to my ignore list.

What are you going to do? Index ALL of the malicious commands possible in Ubuntu and Linux, and make a Handy-Dandy HTML document that pops up whenever you go to type something without thinking about what you're doing? Kind of like Windows UAC, except more obnoxious and protective?
1) parse the command to show the actual command
2) use bash syntax to break it down into commands run and their flags
3) use a translation dm to convert a list of known commands to user friendly explanations (and warnings when potential bad flags are triggered
4) mark any unkown parts as unkown so the user can look them up (at least they have the actual command not my obfuscated bash code)
4b) parse through whatis and the relevant man pages to explain what the command does.

[Skripka]

1) parse the command to show the actual command
2) use bash syntax to break it down into commands run and their flags
3) use a translation dm to convert a list of known commands to user friendly explanations (and warnings when potential bad flags are triggered
4) mark any unkown parts as unkown so the user can look them up (at least they have the actual command not my obfuscated bash code)
4b) parse through whatis and the relevant man pages to explain what the command does.

I think the back and front ends for such an artifice would weigh in slightly more than my car.

[t.rei]

I'm sorry to say this, but what ubuntu REALLY needs is:

A rocksolid, easily installable, well documented and efficiently administrated groupware server.

Why? Because that is why companies use exchange servers and everything that cooperates well with their groupware solution.

Ubuntu - Canonical - needs Moneys! To pay those guy's doing a hell of a great job packaging it, maintaining it, patching it, improving it, developing it... and money comes from? COMPANIES.

Think of it this way:
You get your ubuntu servers running the groupware server, the firewalls, the Datastorage, the DHCP,...
And guess what systems would go best with this server: RIGHT! Ubuntu-Desktop Systems could work "out of the box".

Now this is money-saving-potential for companies. And if they pay only a tiny percent of what it currently costs to maintain a company infrastructure, canonical could still be heading to a $$$ future thus making the worlds opensource software alot - A LOT ! - better.

Remember - Software Engineers like to eat, too. (And man, odering pizza is expensi... *cough* ;) )

[Xbehave]

I think the back and front ends for such an artifice would weigh in slightly more than my car.
You clearly don't have a clue then, a command pre parser isn't heavy, it's difficult to get right but it is not heavy.
A simple lookup table, is pretty much what whatis is, just with info about flags and user friendly language.
A second parser to parse whatis and man pages is not particularly heavy either

Googling what commands do is
1) subject to attacks (i set up a blog with evil commands, wait til it is high ranked then users will still fall for them)
2) very unreliable, my obfuscated code never needs to look the same twice
3) A very stupid way of doing it, google is an internet search engine not a command search engine (hell it ignores most of the important syntax in commands)

[QIII]

Is this relevant? Like at all? Who cares what windows does/doesn't do!

Yes. It is relevant.

There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of possible combinations of commands that can be uttered in the terminal.

Much like any "human readable" language, commands uttered in the command line can be constructed in nearly limitless combinations of perfectly executable instructions. In English, you can compose a sentence that is absolutely unique in all of history, but will convey a meaningful message nonetheless, so long as it conforms with grammatical, syntactical and idiomatic rules.

To attempt to produce a list of "that which might possibly be harmful" would be as fruitful as composing a list of every possible combination of words in English that might possibly be of offense to someone else.

Are there some guidelines? Yes. "Use rm with great caution". There is a sticky on this forum.

[Xbehave]

Why? Because that is why companies use exchange servers and everything that cooperates well with their groupware solution.

Groupware never got anybody laid (http://www.jwz.org/doc/groupware.html) (SFW), so it would need to be a corporate effort, and i think novell and redhat are working on/offering some pretty good solutions, but i do agree that ubuntu would benefit if there was a nice easy groupware solution available NOW

[Xbehave]

Are there some guidelines? Yes. "Use rm with great caution". There is a sticky on this forum.As you can see from my example that is useless unless you give users a way to see what a command does, you can write sudo rm -fr / without typing any letters at all, how is a user supposed to know that will delete everything unless you give them a way to check it.


There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of possible combinations of commands that can be uttered in the terminal.
yet if you break them down into command + flags it is easy to explain what each command + flag does and warn users if there are any suspicious ones (rm, dd, rmdir or -f -F -r -R >&)

[Pogeymanz]

There's Ubuntu Brainstorm (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/).



This app already exists, it's called Firefox.

HA. +1

I don't think the idea is terrible, though.

To be honest, I've become jaded in my years using Linux. Lately I've been saying that if you don't want to ever go anywhere near a command line, then you don't deserve to use Linux anyway.

[alphaniner]

You clearly don't have a clue then, a command pre parser isn't heavy, it's difficult to get right but it is not heavy.

Why don't you produce a demo for us then? Just cover one or two commands.

I don't know how big such a program would be, but I think it would be a huge investment of time. And the people that would benefit just aren't worth the trouble, because powerful tools already exist and the people complaining are the people who don't use them.

[Roger Allott]

A GUI app that took a command, parsed it (use a loop until it's done for sure) then explained the command step by step would definitely be a useful tool for many, myself included as i cba to parse code with my brain when a program can do it for me.

I will give this a shot in python when i get a chance but it will be very tricky to safely parse potentially malicious user input.

Holy Maloley!!!! It would seem that by page 5 of this thread someone has understood my OP!!!

The app that's in my mind would be quite simple to build, I think, and I'd have a go myself if I knew the first thing about python scripting. I could of course reference the numerous glossaries of linux commands out there, but I'd be doing so somewhat blind and, quite frankly, that makes it better done by someone who already has a good knowledge of the commands.

If you manage to get to first base in building such an app, I'd be keen to have a try with test versions and give you feedback.

[Regenweald]

Ultimately, what would be the point of such a program ? It' would still require the end user to read, and as we all know, reading just isn't intuitive enough for: 'the average user'.

Good luck and godspeed.

[alphaniner]

Holy Maloley!!!! It would seem that by page 5 of this thread someone has understood my OP!!!

I think most of us understood the OP. We just don't agree that such a thing is necessary and/or desirable and/or feasible and/or practical and/or successful.

[QIII]

yet if you break them down into command + flags it is easy to explain what each command + flag does and warn users if there are any suspicious ones (rm, dd, rmdir or -f -F -r -R >&)

And if you tell someone something is "suspicious", do you plan to create a tool that tells them under which circumstances the command can be used, assuming that you know the user's intent?

Do you want to create a tool that will say "OK, pal. According to what you have written here, the following will happen: xxxx. I don't recommend this course of action, because I really don't think you want to do this. I think what you want to do is..."

[Xbehave]

Why don't you produce a demo for us then? Just cover one or two commands.

I don't know how big such a program would be, but I think it would be a huge investment of time. And the people that would benefit just aren't worth the trouble.
It may take a while to write, but it would definitely not be a "weigh in slightly more than a car"


Holy Maloley!!!! It would seem that by page 5 of this thread someone has understood my OP!!!
no others under stood its just

this (http://www.arouse.net/despair-linux/debian.jpg) | sed s/debian/arch/
applies.

The app would be difficult and i'm busy atm but i will give it a shot when i get a chance (probably in a couple of weeks), I also wouldn't trust it for safety so it would only be a prove of concept

[t0p]

The app that's in my mind would be quite simple to build, I think, and I'd have a go myself if I knew the first thing about python scripting. I could of course reference the numerous glossaries of linux commands out there, but I'd be doing so somewhat blind and, quite frankly, that makes it better done by someone who already has a good knowledge of the commands.


But learning Bash would be so much more useful. You could then apply your mind to an infinite number of commands and options. You could get by with a pretty basic cheat sheet.

I suggest you download the package abs-guide. And learn something.

Seriously: when a user asks for a program to eliminate the need to learn basic, everyday stuff, I despair.

[Xbehave]

And if you tell someone something is "suspicious", do you plan to create a tool that tells them under which circumstances the command can be used, assuming that you know the user's intent?

Do you want to create a tool that will say "OK, pal. According to what you have written here, the following will happen: xxxx. I don't recommend this course of action, because I really don't think you want to do this. I think what you want to do is..."
No you simply say "this flag is suspicious as it $explanation_of_flag , It is recommend you do not run this command unless you know what you are doing/really trust the user giving you this command".

This sort help is nothing new

zgrep -C 5 clobber /usr/share/man/man1/bash.1.gz

[Xbehave]

Seriously: when a user asks for a program to eliminate the need to learn basic, everyday stuff, I despair. Oh right so you know exactly what any command does and would never fall for obfuscation?

[QIII]

No you simply say "this flag is suspicious as it $explanation_of_flag , It is recommend you do not run this command unless you know what you are doing/trust the user giving you this command"

Taking a course in C++ before you try to create a killer app with it is sometimes as highly recommended as learning something about using the CLI before you use it...

[QIII]

Oh right so you know exactly what any command does and would never fall for obfuscation?

And a user downloads and installs your helpful application knowing full well and good that you are not leading him astray?

[t0p]

Oh right so you know exactly what any command does and would never fall for obfuscation?

No, I don't know what any command does. I'm still learning.

No, I wouldn't fall for obfuscation. If I'm told to do a command that I don't understand, I look it up.

What Ubuntu Really Needs Is..... more users who do the above.

[Roger Allott]

I don't know how big such a program would be, but I think it would be a huge investment of time. And the people that would benefit just aren't worth the trouble, because powerful tools already exist and the people complaining are the people who don't use them.

Completely and utterly wrong. The people 'complaining' are those who use these tools but find them unnecessarily time-consuming, particularly when the enquiry is relatively simple. There is an unknown number of people who do not complain, but instead simply give up on Linux because they couldn't get what they needed within a commercially acceptable time period.

It is interesting that you use the word 'complaining' when describing the act of suggesting improvements.

[Roger Allott]

Seriously: when a user asks for a program to eliminate the need to learn basic, everyday stuff, I despair.

And with relevance to this thread, what do you do when a user asks for a program to help them (and others) learn "basic, everyday stuff"?

[Xbehave]

No, I don't know what any command does. I'm still learning.

No, I wouldn't fall for obfuscation. If I'm told to do a command that I don't understand, I look it up.
You can't look up obfuscated bash without parsing it first, and it's not hard to hide a little bit of obfuscation in an otherwise normal looking script.


What Ubuntu Really Needs Is..... more users who do the above.
I think we have quite enough arrogance TBH.

[alphaniner]

Completely and utterly wrong. The people 'complaining' are those who use these tools but find them unnecessarily time-consuming, particularly when the enquiry is relatively simple. There is an unknown number of people who do not complain, but instead simply give up on Linux because they couldn't get what they needed within a commercially acceptable time period.

People who need solutions within a "commercially acceptable time period" have plenty of options, like hiring someone with the necessary skills, paying for commercial support, or choosing a commercial distro. Have you ever tried SLES? I have to admit, if I had used it much more than I did I might have a very different attitude.

But the point is, there is no shortage of resources available to anyone with even a sliver of initiative. If anything, the problem is an excess rather than an 'abscess'.

Avoiding the need to use the terminal at all I can respect, even if I have no use for such a thing. But many people say this is already possible by and large. That makes me the ignoramus because I couldn't survive a day without the terminal. But making it more user-friendly seems to me like an exercise in futility. Law of diminishing returns and all that.


It is interesting that you use the word 'complaining' when describing the act of suggesting improvements.

'Complaining' wasn't referring to you, but rather to those you claim to represent. Referring to you, I would say 'making ridiculous suggestions'.


And with relevance to this thread, what do you do when a user asks for a program to help them (and others) learn "basic, everyday stuff"?

I suggest you download the package abs-guide.

[Xbehave]

It is interesting that you use the word 'complaining' when describing the act of suggesting improvements.
That's what really gets me, you wern't even rude, it wasn't "ZOMG i can do this in windows linux sucks" it was a simple request for a potential feature and then the arrogance/elitism kicked in.

[hoppipolla]

It's all about Ubuntu Brainstorm for this stuff! I also personally love KDE Brainstorm for obvious reasons ^_^

Does Gnome have one?

[QIII]

And with relevance to this thread, what do you do when a user asks for a program to help them (and others) learn "basic, everyday stuff"?

TEACH them.

What you are suggesting is somewhat like creating a German phrase book and telling someone to go out to a Bierstube.

At best, they guy would give everyone a laugh. At worst, he'd walk out with broken teeth.

I'm reminded of Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner".

Now, the Germans understood his sentiment and his construction was grammatically correct, but Kennedy didn't realize that his grammar pointed out pretty clearly that he wasn't. Or at least that he wasn't a "person" from Berlin, but rather a sort of sweet pastry filled with jam.

"'ch bin Berliner" would have been what he wanted to say.

Point is this: Nothing beats learning the language. Doing otherwise leads you to tell an entire country that you are a jelly donut.

[fela]

...less 'what ubuntu really needs is...' threads would do the trick, I reckon.

[t0p]

And with relevance to this thread, what do you do when a user asks for a program to help them (and others) learn "basic, everyday stuff"?

Well I certainly don't write a program. I might suggest programs that might help, that all depends on what it is the user wants to learn. But if the user wants to learn bash commands, I don't suggest any program. I'd advise the user to use one of the many excellent guides to bash out there on the interwebs.

I really don't see the point of the program described in this thread. It's more worthwhile to follow good tutorials, and to learn bash commands by doing it.

[t0p]

That's what really gets me, you wern't even rude, it wasn't "ZOMG i can do this in windows linux sucks" it was a simple request for a potential feature and then the arrogance/elitism kicked in.

I don't think I accused the OP of complaining. And I absolutely fail to see how I've been arrogant or elitist.

The OP (and you) thinks that a certain kind of program would be useful. I disagree. I think the extant resources would do the job very well and I suggest that the OP uses the resources.

If anything, I think you are exhibiting arrogance when you deny the validity of anyone disagreeing with you.

[alphaniner]

That's what really gets me, you wern't even rude, it wasn't "ZOMG i can do this in windows linux sucks" it was a simple request for a potential feature and then the arrogance/elitism kicked in.

Arrogance/elitism is incorrect. Sure, I and others didn't bother to put on the kid gloves. But we didn't say "We didn't need such tools, so obviously there's no need for them". That would be arrogance. What we said was "We did need such tools, and we found them to already exist: the man pages, and the internet."

[hoppipolla]

...less 'what ubuntu really needs is...' threads would do the trick, I reckon.

Now now fela, people are only trying to be constructive :)

[Shpongle]

there is a place for people to put their ideas for new versions of ubuntu: Brainstorm.ubuntu.com. You can also file wishlist bug reports at launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu.

I think you are approaching the command line issue in the wrong way. First off, you can use man pages to find out what any command line command does. Just go to the command line and type "man whatever" and it tells you want the command does. Or as alphaniner said, you can just do a web search. But the real solution here is to not to educate people about the command line, it is to remove the misconception that linux is all about the command line. With 99% of linux problems, you don't need to use the command line to solve them. A lot of times you see people here on the forums give instructions that involve the command line, but that's just because it's faster to do it that way. An average user can already use linux without ever touching the command line.

+1

[Xbehave]

And I absolutely fail to see how I've been arrogant or elitist.

"What Ubuntu Really Needs Is..... more users who do what i do" (paraphrasing)


But making it more user-friendly seems to me like an exercise in futility. Law of diminishing returns and all that.
Sorry what does the law of diminishing returns have to do with anything and you do realise that apart from getting more powerful each release of bash aims to be more user-friendly by allowing more readable code


TEACH them.
"teach them, but don't use any automated tools that would be stoopid"


"We did need such tools, and we found them to already exist: the man pages, and the internet."
Don't sugar cone it what you guys said was they should STFU and RTFM.this is the elitism.


I really don't see the point of the program described in this thread. It's more worthwhile to follow good tutorials, and to learn bash commands by doing it.
That's the arch way, the ubuntu way is to make tools that make everything as easy as possible. Being able to quickly deconstruct commands and get them in plain English (sorry man pages are not written in plain English) would make things a lot easier. Is it worth the effort, I don't know but the idea of the tool is good

edit:

Now now fela, people are only trying to be constructive :)
this is the second time i agree with hoppipolla in a week, I feel dirty

[QIII]

"teach them, but don't use any automated tools that would be stoopid"

What you are proposing is not teaching. It is more akin to saying "Ah, ah! Don't do that until someone tells you how to do it!"

[fela]

Now now fela, people are only trying to be constructive :)

Well I very much doubt that many developers read these threads.

Brainstorm is the way to go. Ubuntu Brainstorm.

[hoppipolla]

Well I very much doubt that many developers read these threads.

Brainstorm is the way to go. Ubuntu Brainstorm.

I agree :)

[QIII]

Don't sugar cone it what you guys said was they should STFU and RTFM.this is the elitism.

The idiom is "sugar coat". You see, of course, that "sugar cone" is perfectly legal and should not raise any flags in your application. However, typing it into the terminal is not likely to result in the outcome you desire.

"Please go to the terminal and type 'man xxxx'. Read the results. Post back if you do not understand or need more explanation." is not RTFM. It is INSTRUCTION on how to use a TOOL that ALREADY EXISTS -- and offering to explain that which is not understood.

"Please read the textbook and prepare questions on the material for tomorrow's class." I guess those PhDs at the University were telling me RTFM and STFU.

I guess all of those Soldiers I commanded for all those years were getting a raw deal when I had them RTFM before we started training on the battle drills where they could work out what they had learned.

[Xbehave]

What you are proposing is not teaching. It is more akin to saying "Ah, ah! Don't do that until someone tells you how to do it!"
Teaching takes a lot of time and patience, most new users don't have. Maybe ubuntu is ridiculously better than when i first installed it, but I sure as hell had to type commands that were well above my level of understanding into the command line to get things like xorg, compiz, nvidia_drivers even working, i could not understand the related man pages at all, the commands would range from simply moving files to fully blown dbus/dcop commands and
1) I didn't have the patients to wait for somebody to explain exactly what a command did to me (because this can take days, and if i leave linux for a week while i wait for a reply on the forums i'm probably not coming back)
2) It can easily be gamed by a few sockpuppets to say "yeah that command makes xorg work" and instead it removes dpkg

I'm not saying a tool would make the CLI incredibly user friendly but it would put the safety on (like the kernel mode to run untrusted byte-code and noclobber for bash, putting the safety on isn't always bad)


I guess all of those Soldiers I commanded for all those years were getting a raw deal when I had them RTFM before we started training on the battle drills where they could work out what they had learned.
Soldiers want to/have to put the effort in AND the army has a much higher drop out rate than I would want ubuntu to have. Just because you can do it the hard way, does not mean others should have to.

[alphaniner]

Don't sugar cone it what you guys said was they should STFU and RTFM

B0110ck$. I never told anyone to shut up, I just belittled their attempts to coddle people with zero initiative. And I don't even know what RTFM means. Edit: Yeah, I guess you could say I recommended RTFM (http://www.readthe****ingmanual.com/).


Sorry what does the law of diminishing returns have to do with anything

There comes a point where you have to conclude that if people don't get it they aren't worth the effort. This isn't a judgment of their intelligence, but their initiative. User-friendliness is not the barrier to understanding the terminal. The barrier is an expectation to achieve without effort.


"Please read the textbook and prepare questions on the material for tomorrow's class." I guess those PhDs at the University were telling me RTFM and STFU.

Magnificent analogy.

[KiwiNZ]

What this thread needs is time out

Closed for 24 hours to cool off and for the participants to have a coffee.

Go in peace

[KiwiNZ]

re opened hope the coffee was good .

[Xbehave]

Started on a POC, but pretty busy now and i'll need to learn python regex to do it properly

I could do with a list of common commands to warn users about (ideally along with a short description)

lookupTable["dd"]="""Warning, dd is a very dangerous command, dd can easily erase your enitre harddrive, with just a single mistake
It is recomened you do not run this program unless you know what you are doing
of=should almost always equal a file if it does not something is probably wrong
Apropriate uses :backing up discs (k3b can do this safely with a GUI)
:destroying data (shredder can do this with lest risk)
:create encrypted files (truecrypt can do this safely)
:creating swap files
Further reading :man dd
:info coreutils 'dd invocation'
:http://www.codecoffee.com/tipsforlinux/articles/036.html"""

or


lookupTable["cat"]="""Note, while the cat command is fine it is often used with file redirects,
messing up a file redirect can delete all the text in an important file.
It is recommended you run the command "set -o noclobber" to prevent accidental overwriting of files
Apropriate uses: reading/writing to text files (kwrite offers a GUI for this)
Further reading: man cat
: info coreutils 'cat invocation'
: http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/howto-keep-file-safe-from-overwriting.html"""

i've done dd, rm, rmdir, python, perl, sh, gcc, cat

I plan on adding
mkfs, mkswap, sshd, source, import, kill, pkill, killall, killall5, ldd, chpasswd, passwd, apt, yum, dpkg, rpm, luserdel ,lusermod ,userdel ,usermod,ruby,make,dbus, dcop, mount, shutdown, restart, wget, delpart, lvm*, fsck, nc etc

[forrestcupp]

Ubuntu really needs support for a USB toaster so I can make my toast from the command line.

http://www.offbeatearth.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/usb-toaster-gotcha.jpg

[Ric_NYC]

... Love!




:D

[MisfitI38]

...more bikesheds!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3092/3155376939_380f1e6f01.jpg

[Chronon]

Ubuntu uses a forum-based support model...which is not a good idea. The Ubuntu Wiki doc is pathetic.

I agree. Forums are not appropriate for things like how-tos and FAQs. Documentation belongs in a wiki and forums should be used for conversation, IMO.

[Machnikowski]

So, what we need, I think, is some sort of simple, user-friendly GUI app that allows someone to enter a piece of command line code (perhaps gotten on this forum in response to a query), and to have a response that is the command explained to them in clear, plain language.

man command.

It was probably already said, but I'm too lazy to read the entire thread.

[Roger Allott]

man command.

It was probably already said, but I'm too lazy to read the entire thread.

So you're another one who thinks the best way to deal with people who feel intimidated by command line code is to get them to enter command line code?

[sudoer541]

Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a thread devoted to what ubuntu users would like to see in future versions of ubuntu (all flavours)?

Art this point in time, the feedback given to Canonical and the various groups of linux developers from users is almost completely bug reports (mainly launchpad) and queries about how to do stuff (mainly here). Of course, that information is vitally important, but there must be zillions of ideas out there that the ordinary non-developer user has to improve ubuntu.

If there is such a public feedback mechanism, please forgive me for raising a point that's already been covered, but the fact that I cannot find it suggests that it isn't promoted very well!

Anyway, I'll start the ball rolling with one of my suggestions. Please feel free to add yours or comment on those already made.

One of the major reasons for people being nervous about using linux is the perception that one needs to learn how to use the command line, and the knowledge that getting command line instructions wrong can be disastrous.

So, what we need, I think, is some sort of simple, user-friendly GUI app that allows someone to enter a piece of command line code (perhaps gotten on this forum in response to a query), and to have a response that is the command explained to them in clear, plain language.

Perhaps a little more challenging would be to do this in reverse. A user selects verbose, plain language commands from drop-down lists, prompted for any possible appends (e.g. -s, -i, etc.), again explained, and again prompted by drop-down box for any sensible parameters. I suppose this might be called a sort-of query builder, although the commands should of course include more than just those that query the system.

I think that with such an app, the world of ubuntu and linux could open to a heck of a lot more people.


one word ----> MARKETING

[Mornedhel]

So you're another one who thinks the best way to deal with people who feel intimidated by command line code is to get them to enter command line code?

Uuuurrrrrrgh.

Open the Gnome help. Click "Advanced Topics". Click "Terminal Commands References (man pages)". Click a category. Click a command name.

It's going to display *text*. Don't be afraid. It's only documentation. There is no difference between reading text in a terminal and reading text in a graphical window. It's the same text. It won't hurt you. It wants to help you.

The documentation exists, and no one wants to read it, because they're lazy. Not the man pages, not the built-in help. They want to be told. No, it's not because they don't have time to look for help : they obviously have time if they can wait for an answer in a forum. If they are in a hurry they should actively look for information and solutions. "I don't have the first clue what to look for" is a good sign that you haven't tried; usually, googling the error message or the command name gives the correct answer.

So, yes, read the fine manual. We're not trying to lock n00bs out of our 31337 arcane knowledge here. We will happily welcome and help anyone who shows that {s,}he is willing to think for {him,her}self. There is a sense of elitism among Linux users, but anyone is welcomed in the club.

Computers are complicated machines, operating systems doubly so. You need training to operate complicated machinery. Why should you not need training for computers ?

(Actually, yes, "the best way to deal with people who feel intimidated by command line code is to get them to enter command line code", because that has a chance to teach them how to look for answers by themselves.)

[Roger Allott]

I think the net result of ten pages of this thread is the conclusion that most linux 'experts' haven't got the faintest idea what the purpose of an operating system is.

[Merk42]

Or that you expect people to learn via osmosis.

We told you about man, but since that was terminal and not GUI it wasn't good enough.
We told you about System > Ubuntu Help Center > Advanced Topics > Using the command line, which is GUI, but somehow still not good enough.

Then please stop using Linux until they come up with a USB Mind Reading device as clearly that is the only solution you'll accept

[SLEEPER_V]

more cowbell

[alphaniner]

So you're another one who thinks the best way to deal with people who feel intimidated by command line code is to get them to enter command line code?

The only way to conquer fear is to face it. This is a fact of life. How do you get over your fear of riding a bike? By riding a bike. Training wheels are often necessary, but we already have those. What you are proposing is gyroscopic stabilization.


I think the net result of ten pages of this thread is the conclusion that most linux 'experts' haven't got the faintest idea what the purpose of an operating system is.

I think the net result is that most just don't agree with your suggestion. All that is needed to get comfortable with the command line is a bash prompt and Chapter Five of Ubuntu Pocket Guide (http://www.ubuntupocketguide.com/).

[mrboojive]

I think the net result of ten pages of this thread is the conclusion that most linux 'experts' haven't got the faintest idea what the purpose of an operating system is.

There are as many "purposes" as there are users because every user wants something different from their OS. Linux is not perfect for everyone and it never will be because it is impossible to meet everyone's expectations. However, Linux is not an OS for "experts" only just because some advanced configuration is only accessible through the command line. No non-trivial OS can possibly allow you to get to every single configuration option in a user-friendly way. For example, virtually every complaint about the command line applies equally to the Windows registry: it's 'scary' to new users, there's a steep learning curve, and you can't poke around without the risk of breaking things. And yet, to do some things on Windows, you have to edit the registry. Does that fact alone mean that Windows is for "experts" only? Of course not.

Furthermore, there's no reason for anyone to be hung up on the command line! I have installed Ubuntu for lots of non-"expert" users, people who haven't the faintest idea how to use the terminal, and they get along fine. You can use Ubuntu without using the command line. Ubuntu works great for "grandma" type users who don't know anything about technology. And, yes, it also works great for "experts." The people who get hung up on Ubuntu (or on the command line) are the users in between: the tinkerers who have only ever used Windows and get frustrated when things on Linux are different. If you're that type of user, Ubuntu can be great for you, too! But you have to be willing to un-learn some of what you've learned. You have to face the fact that you can't switch to a totally different OS and still be a guru. And, yes, you just might have to type something into the command line every once in a while. I believe the point of all of the "experts" in this thread is that the learning curve is never going to disappear completely.


What Ubuntu Really Needs Is .........Love!!!

+1

[Crunchy the Headcrab]

So you're another one who thinks the best way to deal with people who feel intimidated by command line code is to get them to enter command line code?Worked for me :)

Linux literature is also helpful for some people. If you want to become competent in Linux, you have to be willing to learn. The same can be said about Windows. There are a lot of people that can use Windows to do everything they need, but they are not competent and don't understand half of what their OS can do. In fact I bet most Window users don't even know that it has a CLI.

[Xbehave]

In fact I bet most Window users don't even know that it has a CLI.
There is only one UI for windows (IMO this is a bad thing), that means if you are trying to help somebody on windows it's easy to give GUI instructions, on linux this is not the case the easiest way to get something specific done is the CLI so new users get exposed to it a lot.

Giving new users a way to break down seemingly complex code and explain what it does without having to read a hundred man pages is a good idea.
to me


su -c 'for PID in `pgrep mplayer`; do ionice -c 1 -p $PID ; renice -5 $PID ; done'
May seam obvious to us, but it shouldn't be to hard to explain

su -c #run the rest of the command as administrator
pgrep mplayer #get a list Program IDs
ionice #change the priority of disc access for a program
renice #change the priority of a program

The other use is parsing commands you get of a forum/irc (a common way of support in Linux land)

make=m fix=f really=r work=- now=echo; $now made up commands that looks nice ;$really$make $work$really$fix /
can be evaluated to say

Will execute: rm -rf /

I don't want to encourage people running arbitrary code, but hey abstinence only education doesn't work.

Now i've got other stuff on so this is going slow, but i should be able to get a basic version out next week. Apart from help writing descriptions of commands for humans (not geeks), Does anybody know a complete list of commands that set environmental variables (env and export?) or execute other commands (exec, command, evn, doexec, if, while, case?)

[fela]

Training wheels are often necessary, but we already have those. What you are proposing is gyroscopic stabilization.

Haha good one couldn't have put it better :)