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Paddy Landau
November 11th, 2009, 11:27 AM
I saw an article today on the BBC, detailing a really easy-to-use interface. The idea is excellent: Something brilliantly easy for those who aren't "into" computers. The marketing is aimed at the elderly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8352606.stm

The product is based on Linux Mint (http://www.linuxmint.com/), so it has all the advantages of Open Source. Uh, well, perhaps not... I don't see anything on the company's website allowing downloads!

Anyway, I decided to find out more. The company that develops it is Wessex Computers, and they call it SimplicITy (nothing whatsoever to do with Linux Simplicity (http://www.simplicitylinux.org.uk/)).

The company sells a complete computer package, again a good idea for the not-so-knowledgeable.

However, what shocked me was... the price!

Have a look here:
http://www.discount-age.co.uk/simplicity_computers/ordernow/

Bear in mind that £1 is about US$1.68, so the cheapest full option excluding a printer is an astonishing $730, plus delivery! :shock:

Blimey.

Here's an idea for the clever people at Canonical -- or even the clever people on this forum...

Develop a front-end like the one in the article, aimed at people who are really uncomfortable with computers. (Not just the elderly; I helped a friend the other day who has never used a computer before. It's all a bit overwhelming for him.)

I reckon that Canonical could have this front-end as yet another alternative, which would increase Ubuntu's range even more.


Ubuntu standard
Ubuntu Netbook Remix
Ubuntu for Dummies

newbie2
November 11th, 2009, 11:39 AM
If there was a webcam on it to communicate, it would be more appreciated at elderly people me thinks... ;)

ukripper
November 11th, 2009, 11:56 AM
If there was a webcam on it to communicate, it would be more appreciated at elderly people me thinks... ;)

+1 with skype installed. And Audio and video detected by skype automatically.

NuclearStr1der
November 11th, 2009, 12:08 PM
If there was a webcam on it to communicate, it would be more appreciated at elderly people me thinks... ;)

So true a statement. My GrandMa is absolutely clueless about computers, but she loves that webcam to bits - much to the expense of our bandwidth ;)

I like the idea of an "Ubuntu for Dummies" version, although I'm having trouble figuring out how to make it easier and simpler than the Netbook Remix version.

Glucklich
November 11th, 2009, 12:18 PM
Do you have a link for this SimplicITy? I wasn't able to find it.

From the video you gave, I think that this very close to UNR, isn't it? But a lot more limited, since you just have a big icon saying "Chat" and probably only one program for each kind... like Pidgin for IM and Skype for video-conferences, each one of them with a big icon saying 'Written' and 'Video', respectively. Which, in Ubuntu Netbook Remix, you get a full list of the programs... maybe if you could get a short description in there, it would help (which is not very difficult to do) and it would get the job done. At the same time, you wouldn't sacrifice the OS flexibility. Because, the menu is pretty clear on that one (Games, Graphics, Office, Internet) and it's on the Desktop.

Are they allowed to charge for this? I mean, if they based it on Linux Mint, which is based on Ubuntu... wouldn't they have to share it alike?

wyliecoyoteuk
November 11th, 2009, 12:29 PM
Agreed, it could be cheaper, but that might actually dissuade buyers!

£299 is about bottom consumer price here in the UK for a PC.
(although Acer are selling Ubuntu Desktop Machines for about £180 +VAT)
There is more Value-added stuff, like video tutorials with Valerie Singleton (ageing minor British celebrity) and included membership of discount Age, a preconfigured eldy email account, etc.

After all, they are not in the business to give stuff away, and with their reputation, it might just be a goer.

I wonder if Canonical were to approach Age concern, whether theirs would be any cheaper.

Paddy Landau
November 11th, 2009, 12:53 PM
If there was a webcam on it to communicate, it would be more appreciated at elderly people me thinks... ;)
Now that's an excellent idea.


I like the idea of an "Ubuntu for Dummies" version, although I'm having trouble figuring out how to make it easier and simpler than the Netbook Remix version.
As easy and well-designed as it is, even the NBR is too complicated for the absolute newbies. Have you ever worked with one and noticed just how fearsome it seems to that person? A friend of mine used to be afraid even to touch the keyboard!

It takes just four clicks to swap between NBR and the standard interface, so if Ubuntu had a "dummies" version (perhaps a better name, yes?), then it would be easy to swap between the three versions.


Do you have a link for this SimplicITy? I wasn't able to find it.
It's all in the first post (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8292477#post8292477). You can't download SimplicITy; the company makes its money selling the computers.


... this very close to UNR, isn't it? But a lot more limited...
That's the point!

As an analogy, a mobile phone enthusiast will be happy to have a phone with a camera, plenty of fancy options, MP3 player, alarms, games, Internet acess, Bluetooth, and so on. For me, I just want "Call someone" and "text someone".

Computer people are the same. Some like lots of tinkering, games, options, and so on, while others just want "Email", "Write a document", and three or four other options.


Are they allowed to charge for this?
I don't know the license for Mint. Perhaps the license requires the software to be made available to everyone (though not the video instructions, I would imagine). You can certainly ask for a copy of the software and find out what reply you get.

But the company isn't claming to make the money on the software. It's making the money on the computers, the novelty and the video instructions. That's perfectly above-board, AFAIK.

bloodorange
November 11th, 2009, 01:14 PM
so it has all the advantages of Open Source. Uh, well, perhaps not... I don't see anything on the company's website allowing downloads!


Yes, I read about this via BBC, too. It's a great idea. I haven't tried it yet, but you can download the front end - Eldy. It's developed in Italy, here's the Eldy website: http://www.eldy.eu/

Paddy Landau
November 11th, 2009, 01:44 PM
here's the Eldy website: http://www.eldy.eu/
Brilliant, thanks for the link.

I downloaded Eldy via the repositories as instructed; the repositories are still only version 1.7, and Synaptic wants to repeatedly upgrade it to the same version :confused:

But it really does seem very easy to use. Almost nothing to it, which of course is the point.

I do think that Canonical would do well to incorporate this idea into an alternative front-end.

thedogisdead
November 11th, 2009, 01:53 PM
While I applaud any efforts in making computers accessible to older people... come on, could they not have given the interface a bit more polish?

It may be simplistic, but that's not the same as friendly, or encouraging to use, is it?

It's a good start, though, and it shows how people can make a viable business by using open source software to appeal to niche markets!

t0p
November 11th, 2009, 02:13 PM
I like the idea of an "Ubuntu for Dummies" version, although I'm having trouble figuring out how to make it easier and simpler than the Netbook Remix version.

Making sure all the hardware is properly detected and supported will go a long way towards ensuring it's simple and easy. And as this is being marketed as a hardware-and-software package, this should be achievable,



Are they allowed to charge for this? I mean, if they based it on Linux Mint, which is based on Ubuntu... wouldn't they have to share it alike?

This is a common mistake. There is nothing in the GPL to stop people selling software. In fact Stallman absolutely encourages people to make money from Free software.

The "Free" in "Free software" doesn't mean "no cost". It means "freedom"... "liberty"... often described thus: "Think free as in free speech, not free beer".

The GPL allows you to sell Ubuntu (or any Linux distro) for any price you like. There is nothing wrong in profiting from Ubuntu, even if you don't actually contribute anything of worth. Legally (and morally, I think) it is perfectly fine to burn Ubuntu CDs and sell them for $100 a pop. Or more.

The only proviso is that you don't interfere with anyone else's freedom regarding the software. If someone wants to buy a CD off you, then make thousands of copies and give them away in the street, you mustn't try to stop them. Freedom cuts both ways.

ikt
November 11th, 2009, 02:20 PM
Bear in mind that £1 is about US$1.68, so the cheapest full option excluding a printer is an astonishing $730, plus delivery! :shock:

I don't see a problem, they've got a business model and they're going for it.

If people don't like their prices or business model they will go broke, capitalism at work.

Paddy Landau
November 11th, 2009, 02:39 PM
... could they not have given the interface a bit more polish?
Probably. It's early days yet; give it time.


It may be simplistic, but that's not the same as friendly, or encouraging to use, is it?
For the intended target market, it probably is. The more simplistic the better! But at the price, well, I'm shocked.

Glucklich
November 11th, 2009, 02:52 PM
This is a common mistake. There is nothing in the GPL to stop people selling software. In fact Stallman absolutely encourages people to make money from Free software.

The "Free" in "Free software" doesn't mean "no cost". It means "freedom"... "liberty"... often described thus: "Think free as in free speech, not free beer".

The GPL allows you to sell Ubuntu (or any Linux distro) for any price you like. There is nothing wrong in profiting from Ubuntu, even if you don't actually contribute anything of worth. Legally (and morally, I think) it is perfectly fine to burn Ubuntu CDs and sell them for $100 a pop. Or more.

The only proviso is that you don't interfere with anyone else's freedom regarding the software. If someone wants to buy a CD off you, then make thousands of copies and give them away in the street, you mustn't try to stop them. Freedom cuts both ways.

I was not referring to GPL. I was thinking about something along the lines of CreativeCommons with the "share alike" option. Not necessarily a CC's license but a point that stated that while modifying it, you wouldn't be able to profit from it.
Don't know if Ubuntu has it or not as I never though of it in that terms. I mean, if Canonical doesn't profit from it, it wouldn't be that far-fetched that they wouldn't want you to profit from their work (or base work, in this case).

Paddy Landau
November 11th, 2009, 03:08 PM
I was thinking about something along the lines of CreativeCommons with the "share alike" option.
See post 8 (bloodorange) (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8292860#post8292860); you can see that the company has indeed 'shared alike'. You can download it free from the website.

newbie2
November 11th, 2009, 03:44 PM
Yes, I read about this via BBC, too. It's a great idea. I haven't tried it yet, but you can download the front end - Eldy. It's developed in Italy, here's the Eldy website: http://www.eldy.eu/
I contacted them with a link to this thread,and i already got a message back from Enrico Neri :
ciao
please download latest from:
http://eldy.eu
or
http://linuxforelderly.wordpress.com/


Eldy is not about hw (simplicitycomputer), but about no profit seniors
software (eldy).
yes we use webcam with skype (sorry no linux java library) for videoconfencing

new version (2.3) will include video email , due to Christmas 2009

if you need more help, we'r here
ciao!
EN
vice president no profit Associazione ELDY

:cool:

Swagman
November 11th, 2009, 04:02 PM
The amount of trouble the lady was having using a mouse in the video maybe it would be better to provide it with a large trackball instead ?

Paddy Landau
November 11th, 2009, 04:09 PM
I contacted them with a link to this thread,and i already got a message back from Enrico Neri...
Thanks for that.


The amount of trouble the lady was having using a mouse in the video maybe it would be better to provide it with a large trackball instead ?
I was thinking that a touch-screen would have made the best bet. For the price that they're charging, they could do it.

Sealbhach
November 11th, 2009, 04:13 PM
I don't see a problem, they've got a business model and they're going for it.

If people don't like their prices or business model they will go broke, capitalism at work.

What they're doing is really no different to what Apple are doing with the Mac, now that they're using Intel parts.

.

wulfgang
November 11th, 2009, 04:25 PM
My grandmother uses ubuntu. :)

ZankerH
November 11th, 2009, 05:27 PM
Did they release their modifications under the GNU GPL? Are they even open-source? I don't see a "download" button anywhere on their site, and not one mention of the software licence, so I'm guessing it's proprietary crap, which means they're

a) deceiving their customers (the text clearly says it's a Free system)
b) probably not worth the money

.

EDIT: Oh, I'm wrong. See post 8, on the first page. I applaud the effort, but the hardware price is still far off. This is obviously aimed at the "old people who have no idea what computer hardware is supposed to cost" market segment.

gnomeuser
November 11th, 2009, 05:37 PM
I think it is brilliant. We have a similar offer here in Denmark for the elderly but it is based on Windows which always seemed idiotic to me.

I love that people care and design solutions for this group of users and their limited use cases. It gives them new life and connections with family. E.g. my fiancées 80 something grandparents use skype and their webcam to keep in touch and see the family while maintaining Brazilian country living on their vineyard.

My own 94 year old grandmother could benefit from this kind of communication but she is getting a slight bit of dementia and I think it is becoming to late for her to absorb new knowledge even this way.

chousho
November 11th, 2009, 08:33 PM
This is a very awesome thing to put effort into.

I'm not as much concerned with the price as much as getting the availability out there to people who don't yet have it—whether with this system of SimplicITy or some other system.

I too noticed the difficulty the lady had with the mouse; I think a touch based system would be ideal for those not completely familiar with a 2/3 button mouse. Allow them to press the screen for what text box they want to type in, then use the keyboard for their message.

Also, I think it would be wise to have a navigation to the main menu more contrasted with the background than they had. Perhaps a non-moving button with a more visible text/background color contrast on the top left saying "Main Menu".

As well, I hope the setting up for "Chat" is easy to do. I think when setting up the system, it should store information for Name, Email and the like, so that it can call on those later when needing to set up a chat account. That's to say, the program should be able to auto-create an account through MSN or the like using the information given through the system. That way the user will not have to remember their email address or create their own accounts through a specific Web site to use whatever protocol (let's say MSN instant messaging), it would all be taken care of by the OS's suite.

While the design might look a bit "bare" by some standpoints, I think for those not familiar with computers at all the apt saying is: if you can't take away any more without hindering performance, you've reached your goal. KISS.

earthpigg
November 11th, 2009, 09:14 PM
this is great!

the idea now rolling around in my head is building an Ubuntu remix around Eldy.

edit: thinking it would only make sense to base it on ubuntu LTS, to try to find a way to not use non-free Java JRE if possible, and include a clickable script that installs ubuntu-restricted-extras and the DVD codecs after a very brief advisory message.

earthpigg
November 11th, 2009, 09:28 PM
i'm not so sure this is Free Software...

and only i386? :(


Package: eldy
Version: 1.7
Maintainer: enrico.neri@vegans.it
Installed-Size: 25000
Priority:
Section: non-free
Essential:
Architecture: i386
Source:
Depends: sun-java6-jre
Pre-Depends: sun-java6-jre
Recommends: sun-java6-jdk
Suggests: sun-java6-jdk
Breaks:none
Conflicts:none
Replaces: eldy
Provides: eldy
Description: Eldy is the first software for elderly, providing our senior email, chat, browser, weather, editor, and lot more. we all have to enjoy the internet revolution! check out for news at www.eldy.eu and www.eldy.org. Eldy is Italian, and created by vegetarian, so respect our brothers animals!



edit: anyone else playing with the .deb....

it appears it must be run as root, which we may need to find a trick to work around.


chris@ubuntu-vm:~$ java -jar /usr/local/eldy/eldy.jar
Unable to access jarfile /usr/local/eldy/eldy.jar
chris@ubuntu-vm:~$ sudo java -jar /usr/local/eldy/eldy.jar




it looks a bit odd launching eldy in gnome (the gnome panel looked like it hid part of the eldy interface for some reason), but logging in as an openbox session and then starting it looks fine.

lxpanel does not interfere with it.

brainstorming: use LXDE, have eldy launched at login. when full-blown system access is needed, click exit -> reduce and bam: there's LXDE waiting for you. clicking on eldy's window icon on the panel brings it back up.

would need to have eldy launched by the display manager, which runs as root. or use fakeroot or something else. or manually edit the permissions of /usr/local/eldy/eldy.jar.

earthpigg
November 11th, 2009, 09:45 PM
indeed.

when you run the notepad and try to save something, the default save directory is in /root.... which i suppose makes sense, since i had to run it with sudo.

yup, we will need to figure this nonsense out. if there is anyone that should not be running as root, its the folks this is specifically designed for - i dont care how limited the UI is.

the multiuser version is only available for Windows, apparently...

i will not be installing/running this outside of a VM until this is sorted out. i suggest everyone else do the same.

earthpigg
November 11th, 2009, 10:01 PM
ok that was easy enough. i use lxde's default tools for most things -- gnome/ubuntu tools should work just as well. nautilus instead of pcmanfm. gedit instead of leafpad.

to install and run eldy safely on an Ubuntu system:

install non-free java:


sudo apt-get install sun-java6-jre

download and the .deb from here (http://linuxforelderly.wordpress.com/) onto your i386 system. it may be possible to repackage it for amd64 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1070885) for 64-bit Ubuntu, but i have not tested this. shame on the eldy developers for not releasing a 64 bit .deb - this is 2009 ffs.

double click on the .deb to isntall it.

run your favorite file manager as root. i use pcmanfm.


sudo pcmanfm

find the /usr/local/eldy directory. recursively edit it's permissions so all users have read and execute permissions.

in pcmanfm: check the two appropriate boxes and hit 'apply' or 'ok' or whatever. you will get a dialog asking you if you want the changes to be recursively applied to all subdirectories and files. yes, you do.

then, you should be able to run eldy as a regular user:


java -jar /usr/local/eldy/eldy.jar

you will not be able to open stuff you shouldn't be able to, and the default save directory will be in ~. if you run it it gnome, the bottom of the eldy interface will be a bit messed up. i suggest using either openbox or lxde, instead.


to have eldy ran whenever you login to an LXDE session using GDM on Ubuntu 9.10:

first, you must have LXDE installed. or i suppose lubuntu-desktop, if you wish, though i have not tested it.


sudo apt-get install lxde
or

sudo apt-get install lubuntu-desktop

open up /etc/xdg/lxsession in your favorite text editor. i like leafpad.

sudo leafpad /etc/xdg/lxsession

add this line to the end:

@java -jar /usr/local/eldy/eldy.jar


done. log out for changes to take effect.

whenever you log into LXDE, you will be presented with the eldy interface - selecting exit -> reduce will reveal the standard LXDE desktop... which is ugly, but will allow access to stuff not available in the limited eldy interface.

whenever you log into GNOME, you will be presented with your familiar Ubuntu desktop.



best of all worlds, for everyone. will need to teach grandma or whoever to log into an LXDE session, of course. or set the computer up to automatically log in as grandma's username and start lxde by default.

chousho
November 11th, 2009, 10:05 PM
Really I don't think it would be too hard to create our own version of a distribution for the elderly.

I think a modified version of XFCE would suffice. However, I'm speaking in terms of coding. Planning the ease of use and making it user intuitive would most likely take the most time.

Hmm, this could be quite interesting to work on, actually~

earthpigg
November 11th, 2009, 10:22 PM
I think a modified version of XFCE would suffice. However, I'm speaking in terms of coding. Planning the ease of use and making it user intuitive would most likely take the most time.

Hmm, this could be quite interesting to work on, actually~

if i where to do it (which i may):

target is the 'family' desktop. assume the family has some members who would benefit from eldy.

include ubuntu-desktop and lxde and eldy on the .iso.

the ubuntu-desktop metapackage would be removed, in addition to some other packages, to free up space so it can still fit onto a 700mb cd-r.

a new metapackage would be created and installed by default so components of ubuntu-desktop we want to keep wouldn't appear in the 'janitor' or be removed by 'apt-get autoremove'.

call this metapackage 'eldybuntu-desktop', i suppose.

family members that like ubuntu can log into GNOME.

family members that eldy is intended for would need to be taught how to log into LXDE.



yes/no?

this is fairly simple. the two obvious approaches:

1) standard committee method of an official ubuntu edition. estimated time to completion from today at 12 months or longer.

2) me, or some other "lone gunner" does it as a single person. estimated time to completion from today at 12 man-hours or less from whenever whoever does it feels like starting - including throwing together a basic website. disadvantages of this: will not appear in the repos, can not use the name 'eldybuntu', and the lack of official Ubuntu endorsement would likely reduce the potential userbase.



concerns:

-Sun Java JRE is non-free software.

-Eldy itself is non-free software, as stated in the 'control' file in the .deb (i copy/pasted it about 5 posts up if you want to take a look for yourself).

-As this would clearly be a derivative work based on GPL'd software, the entire project would need to be GPL'd.

-That would not be possible as long as Sun Java JRE is non-free software.


possible concern workaround:

-do not release an .iso.

-release a script or .deb instead that, when ran as root on a vanilla ubuntu install, results in what we are tentatively calling "Eldybuntu". it would be made very clear during the script that pressing "y" will result in non-free software being installed.

-abandon eldy, and instead teach grandma to use lxlauncher :D

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2336/2652348622_04b100aea0.jpg?v=0

chousho
November 11th, 2009, 10:43 PM
Hmm, I'm a bit torn on the idea of including non-free software as well.

On the one hand the primary goal is to include elderly (or any other target group that could benefit) in our own "world" of computers. On the other hand, the inclusion of non-free software opens up the possibility of those companies coming in to take control and assert their own interests over that of the main goal.

Which, to me, smacks a bit of the same as the OLPC, unless I'm mistaken.

The real thing I would be concerned with is "teaching grandma to..." part. This is mainly what most elderly people I know say is the reason for not using computers: they do not know how and fear that there is too much to learn. Whether this is true or not, I think the general base should be to be more intuitive and straight forward. This promotes them to "know how" without "learning how".

But to be fair, any ideas are certainly welcome. I definitely would rather have my own idea shot down but still have the ability for elderly be able to communicate with friends and use computers. Keep the goal in mind, not my own self interests :)

earthpigg
November 11th, 2009, 10:58 PM
good points, chousho.

re: "teaching grandma/grandpa to..."

if it where a single user computer instead of family, the person setting it up for him/her could go to system -> admin -> login window and set it to automatically log grandma in at boot without requiring anything else on her part.

moving on:

i agree about the non-free stuff. if the target user invests a lot of time and mental effort into learning the eldy interface, and then 'upstream' (Sun or Eldy) decides to change the license terms... well, we'd potentially be setting the target user up for long term problems in one way or another.

eldy itself isn't particularly complex software, so no reason to set our family members up for failure by setting them up to be reliant on it.

the more i digest this, the more i think im just going to leave my own grandmother with lxlauncher or other free software solutions (a half dozen giant icons on the desktop, for example).



the brainstorming was fun, but i think i will now withdraw myself from any efforts that would encourage making folks reliant on non-free software. given that older folks tend to learn slower and tend to have fewer years left to live, we would especially be doing them a disservice by encouraging them to invest some of the limited time they have left learning any system reliant on non-free software.

i'd feel pretty cruddy if my own grandmother spent 6 months of her precious time becoming a ninja at Eldy, only to have java or eldy become software that must be paid for (with the integrated e-mail and chat stuff, this has a potential future as SaaS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_as_a_Service) and vendor lockin price gouging written all over it).

i would then find myself between a rock and a hard place: do i pay $50/month for grandma to continue to be able to use her integrated @eldy.com chat/e-mail, or do i encourage her invest even more of her valuable time in learning an alternate system?

since eldy is non-free software, we cannot simply modify it to accommodate jabber or other e-mail/chat. an eldy user is absolutely locked in to their currently gratis @eldy.com username/email/IM-name. the gratis part can change at any time, and this concerns me.

slow learners, such as some/many/most/? of the elderly, are especially vulnerable to vendor lock-in.


I'm washing my hands of Eldy. Uninstalling it from my VM now.

if they released it entirely as Free Software, all my concerns about potentially victimizing the elderly would be quickly removed. we could then quickly have the integrated chat/email clients use other chat protocols and e-mail addresses.

Paddy Landau
November 12th, 2009, 08:24 AM
Hey, this forum as usual has released some awesome ideas!


edit: thinking it would only make sense to base it on ubuntu LTS, to try to find a way to not use non-free Java JRE if possible, and include a clickable script that installs ubuntu-restricted-extras and the DVD codecs after a very brief advisory message.
The advisory message would have to be hugely easy to understand. Something like:
The next step will load extra software to make your computer experience easier. For copyright reasons, we need your permission.


Yes (recommended)
No (skip this step)

I believe that Sun is heavily committed to keeping Java and OpenOffice as open source, so even though it is classified as non-free, nevertheless IMO they are both safe to use.


it appears it must be run as root, which we may need to find a trick to work around.
As a PP mentioned, it is saved (bizarrely) with read-permissions disallowed. Simply set all files to read-allowed:

sudo chmod -R a+r /usr/local/eldy
... i think im just going to leave my own grandmother with lxlauncher or other free software solutions (a half dozen giant icons on the desktop, for example). ... i will now withdraw myself from any efforts that would encourage making folks reliant on non-free software.
OK... I hadn't known about lxlauncher or the other free software solutions.

So, you're saying that alternatives to Eldy already exist?

In that case, what about changing the brainstorm into one that lists the best alternatives? The required attributes would be:


Free (i.e. GPL open software)
Fully compatible with Ubuntu
Easy to install (.deb available if not in the repositories)
Easy to swap between it and the standard interface
Dead easy and simple for total computer newbies to use (well, as easy as today's primitive interfaces can get)
Preferable, though not required, the ability to use a touch-screen instead of the mouse

earthpigg
November 12th, 2009, 11:13 AM
So, you're saying that alternatives to Eldy already exist?

not necessarily intended, designed, or marketed as such, no. but water was probably not intended to be used to generate electricity, either. :D


In that case, what about changing the brainstorm into one that lists the best alternatives?

off the top of my head...

-any of the below in conjunction with setting up the target computer for remote administration by the target user's friend/family tech support guy/gal (ie: the ubuntuforums.org reader, in our case).
-UNR on a standard desktop.
-lxlauncher on a standard desktop.
-(list of netbook-intended stuff continues)
-giant icons on the gnome desktop. right click -> resize
-make the computer automatically log into a non-sudoer account at boot.
-what else we got?

Paddy Landau
November 12th, 2009, 11:38 AM
... setting up the target computer for remote administration...
+1

Perhaps that, with NBR, would suffice. I still want to investigate lxlauncher.

EDIT: Oh, it seems that lxlauncher is not available for Hardy:
http://packages.ubuntu.com/intrepid/x11/lxlauncher

marchwarden
November 12th, 2009, 11:59 AM
In my opinion it's a great idea broken by a horrendous business model. I honestly do not believe that the older generation or not-for-profit organisations are likely to the value the "differentiation" premium (against commodity like, off the shelf purchases) any where near what the company is charging. I believe that the product is right, but the price is not given the current economic climate and the maturity of the PC market.

Paddy Landau
November 12th, 2009, 12:50 PM
In my opinion it's a great idea broken by a horrendous business model...
Yes, those were my thoughts. They're addressing total novices who are a bit afraid of computers, and would not know the high cost of what they're being offered.

Bearing in mind what I've learned in this thread, to me it seems the only real value being added is the set of video tutorials; and, to some small degree, the 'chat' facility with people in a similar position.

Bruce McL
November 18th, 2009, 06:55 AM
I do like a lot of what they are doing, and what they are trying to do, with the UI. The large cursor and type sizes, and the unified look and feel of all apps. I wonder if this would do the same job:

1. a custom appearance theme for Ubuntu with large type and cursor
2. some local web pages in a browser set to kiosk mode

Grandpa or Grandma could chat, email, surf the web, edit and save notes from within the browser.

It occurs to me that Seamonkey can do just about everything that Eldy does: Chat, Mail, Web, Documents (saved as drafts in mail), youtube, etc. It would need some radical UI changes though to match the ease of use and large type of Eldy.

IwanVosloo
December 29th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Interesting thread.

I played a but with Eldy today. And I'm not so sure that it is all that usable. Some error messages, for example for invalid fields when registering just do not make any sense. I also could never open a file created with "notepad", and has similar difficulties with email.

I also like the idea of using UNR as a base (with netbook-launcher), but there are a few things one may want to improve on:

- I think you should always only have one instance of a particular program open at a time. Currently it is easy to open several by mistake. When you launch a program again, it should maximise the currently running instance (if there is one).
- There should also be a large button somewhere in the panel which will close the current program and return you to the "home screen".
- Really make it impossible to un-maximise a program.
- Perhaps simplified alternatives the programs installed by default.

A lot of this feels like it should be doable with window manager config (or additions to the launcher itself).

-i

lproven
March 2nd, 2010, 04:16 PM
Hi there. Thought I should introduce myself; I'm the software directory at Simplicity Computers and I'm the one that put together the Eldy-based suite that we are selling on our machines. I'm sorry that I didn't find this thread earlier - I mainly hang out on the Ubuntu mailing lists, especially Sounder, & don't really use the fora much. (But as you can see from my profile, I've been here for >4 years, this is not some new account set up specially to reply!)

I just thought I'd clarify a few things that people have been talking about.

I initially built the system on Ubuntu - 8.04 LTS, in fact. We are using Linux Mint now because when we approached Mark Shuttleworth (the SABDFL) about using Ubuntu in the project, he refused us permission to do so unless we removed the Ubuntu name and all trademarks, logos etc. Since we did not wish to start our own distro - and don't have the manpower to do so - this was not an option.

Clem Lefevbre of Mint was happy for us to use Mint, and as Mint is an Ubuntu spinoff, this required little additional work.

However, Mint has proved to be very useful and a big help to us. For instance, it includes Java, and as the Eldy interface is written in and thus requires a Java VM, Mint meant less work for us. Also, by default it includes a slightly more Windows-like desktop layout, which is thus less unfamiliar and intimidating to family members helping with the computers.

I did look at using XFCE, but currently it is not possible to lock items in place under XFCE, which is a necessary feature for us, as our R&D showed.

No, our system is not open source, although Eldy is freeware. Thus, we do not redistribute it and it is not available for download. It is, for now, only available preloaded on our computers. To do this we have negotiated a commercial licence for Eldy from Vegan Solutions in Italy.

The Simplicity version of Eldy is significantly different from the free version, with a completely re-translated GUI and an integrated set of step-by-step video tutorials walking novices through using everything from email to the Web. The freely-downloadable version doesn't include any of this.

We haven't modified Mint itself - we are not a spin-off distro in our own right. Mint is from Ireland and we are in England, so it can include things like the official Adobe Flash player and latest Sun JRE. It is legal to redistribute those with Linux here in Europe, although not, I believe, in the USA.

For those proposing things like the Netbook Remix launcher or Lxde as alternatives - well, in fact, my first proof-of-concept version of our Simplicity desktop did use a custom mix of Lxlauncher from LXDE, the Maximus window manager from UNR and so on. However, it wasn't simple enough.

There are many complexities in a desktop that people used to GUIs are so habituated to that they don't notice them any more. Resizable windows; menu bars; menus; icons and buttons which aren't the same thing; dialog boxes; and so on. We wanted to remove all them. Our goal was a GUI where the user never needed to learn how to double-click, right-click, move or size or maximise windows and so on.

This is why we adopted Eldy, which also includes other optimisations for older users who are complete computer virgins. The Eldy environment has no icons, only single-click buttons; no menus; no double-clicking; no right-clicking; no sub-windows and various other simplifications. It also works very hard to minimise the use of dialog boxes and toolbars, although there are a few. It's designed for extreme ease and simplicity, which means it limits the functions it offers to avoid confusion or complexity.

As for pricing, I think that those people who feel that the machines are very expensive do not realize that PCs are very cheap in the USA compared to the rest of the world. By British standards, the machines are fairly inexpensive, especially when you consider that a separate video training course would normally cost hundreds of pounds extra. In future, as component prices fall, we plan to increase the spec and drop the prices.

earthpigg
March 2nd, 2010, 04:50 PM
Thank you for the response, sir.

would you like to address my concerns regarding the mid-to-long term, when users (users that may have difficulty learning new things, and users who don't want to waste what precious time they have left learning new interfaces) may find themselves locked into your products?


i would then find myself between a rock and a hard place: do i pay $50/month for grandma to continue to be able to use her integrated @company.com chat/e-mail, or do i encourage her invest even more of her valuable time in learning an alternate system?

would you be willing to guarantee that the use of e-mail and chat services will always be free?

will you allow users to use third party e-mail and chat in a manner integrated with the GUI you provide? it would require a bit of additional work... but this one, i think, would go a long way towards clearly demonstrating good faith. compatibility with the jabber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabber) standard looks to be a good candidate for the IM.... gchat is the most popular implementation of this, but certainly not the only one.

if you don't allow integrated 3rd party e-mail and chat, what happens if you folks close up shop and go out of business?

will you guarantee that third party advertisers will never be permitted to place ads on end-user desktops, e-mail, or IM? ..."this email sent from a simplicITy computer (link)" is one thing, but third party advertisements would be something else entirely.

Impreza
March 2nd, 2010, 05:34 PM
While I applaud any efforts in making computers accessible to older people... come on, could they not have given the interface a bit more polish?

I don't think Gran is going to spend all day in a screenshots thread modding and blinging up.

my_wan
April 10th, 2010, 05:45 AM
I don't think Gran is going to spend all day in a screenshots thread modding and blinging up.
Wow, that's really comforting, not.. Given the concerns expressed that was the only one you found worth responding to? That's near tantamount to conceding such concerns are relevant in this particular instance, especially with such an inflated initial price tag when the company is not even willing to do their own distro.