Net pirates to be 'disconnected'

[ukripper]

Another nail in the head even for legal file sharers.It will be really hard for gov. to technically identify if the content is legal or illegal whilst file being shared, in that process even the legal file-sharer would face the consequences of what Mr Mandelson think is right.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8328820.stm

http://www.v3.co.uk/v3/news/2252149/mandleson-file-sharers

[SunnyRabbiera]

Hah like that would work, one can easily change their IP and information in a heartbeat if they knew how. And most pirates are that cleaver.
The more they try the more they fail to solve the problem.
Really they should just give up trying, people are going to pirate one way or another.

[pwnst*r]

lol, the UK

[ukripper]

lol, the UK

You are right, only here in UK we get pathetic policies to solve something which ain't there. Things like YOBS, gangs get overlooked and intentionally ignored by current Gov. because they only care about flippin votes.

[pwnst*r]

you guys are as bad as the US lately. and we're terrible.

[amingv]

1. Hook yourself to a public wifi hotspot.
2. ???
3. PROFIT!

[ukripper]

Hah like that would work, one can easily change their IP and information in a heartbeat if they knew how. And most pirates are that cleaver.
The more they try the more they fail to solve the problem.
Really they should just give up trying, people are going to pirate one way or another.

Your ISP can easily identify if you are file sharing but it is very hard to identify each download done is legal or illegal. That is my point.

[SunnyRabbiera]

Your ISP can easily identify if you are file sharing but it is very hard to identify each download done is legal or illegal. That is my point.

Indeed, and that too is why the problem will never go away.

[ukripper]

Indeed, and that too is why the problem will never go away.

Agreed! Why they waste money on such policies is beyond my thinking.

[bonfire89]

maybe less people would pirate material if the people producing it didn't make such obscene amounts of money.


Interesting, the other day, I arrived at a small artists webpage. I clicked on "download album", it then asked for a "donation".... that was the first time I ever donated money on the internet. It was a great technique on their part. By making it available for free, but then asking for a donation... just some how... I don't know.. it just just worked.

[SunnyRabbiera]

maybe less people would pirate material if the people producing it didn't make such obscene amounts of money.


Interesting, the other day, I arrived at a small artists webpage. I clicked on "download album", it then asked for a "donation".... that was the first time I ever donated money on the internet. It was a great technique on their part. By making it available for free, but then asking for a donation... just some how... I don't know.. it just just worked.

The donation approach I like myself, in fact I wish most music and stuff like that worked that way.
The end user can have the product for free but if they wished they could pitch a few dimes.

[ukripper]

The donation approach I like myself, in fact I wish most music and stuff like that worked that way.
The end user can have the product for free but if they wished they could pitch a few dimes.

Nice idea, only if Lily allen could appreciate how she earned respect by sharing her music on myspace and now hypocritically going against sharers

[TheBuzzSaw]

I recently downloaded a game to which I own the original CD. The CD is no longer functional, but I still have a license to that game. I took matters into my own hands and replaced my broken copy. What I did was not stealing: no one else suffered a loss at the expense of my gain.

How is some Internet monitor going to differentiate legal traffic and illegal traffic? What legal recourse do I have for someone who flags me incorrectly? If I lose my Internet connection, I can no longer work.

[ukripper]

How is some Internet monitor going to differentiate legal traffic and illegal traffic? What legal recourse do I have for someone who flags me incorrectly? If I lose my Internet connection, I can no longer work.

Then you have to write a sweet letter to Mr Mandelson asking for your connection back and suing him for mental health damage incurred.

[Eddie Wilson]

A lot of artist are now starting to offer their music and such directly online. I would rather pay them directly then to give most of the money to a record company. The record companies hate that. I have no problem paying for good content.

[ukripper]

A lot of artist are now starting to offer their music and such directly online. I would rather pay them directly then to give most of the money to a record company. The record companies hate that. I have no problem paying for good content.

+1 on that!

[JillSwift]

Perhaps they're going to target files with the word "YARRR!" in the file name.

Or, maybe they'll send out an agent to a potential pirates home, and knock on the door, and if they answer "Ahoy, landubber!" they get disconnected.

A yo ho-ho, it's a pirate's life fer me!

Though, to be honest, I really dislike rum.

[cascade9]

Though, to be honest, I really dislike rum.

LOL. Maybe it tastes better if you've spent 6 months on a leaky boat eating nothing but hard tack? Or maybe you're meant to dip the parrot into the rum 1st. I know, that sounds gross, but it couldnt make the rum taste any worse, could it?

[JillSwift]

LOL. Maybe it tastes better if you've spent 6 months on a leaky boat eating nothing but hard tack? Or maybe you're meant to dip the parrot into the rum 1st. I know, that sounds gross, but it couldnt make the rum taste any worse, could it?
Depends which end of the parrot you dip, I hear. :o

[meho_r]

A lot of artist are now starting to offer their music and such directly online. I would rather pay them directly then to give most of the money to a record company. The record companies hate that. I have no problem paying for good content.

An example is T61 (www.thesixtyone.com). Many artists post their songs directly, some are free to download, some not, but all are free to listen to whenever you like. And what I really like is that many artists are actually making conversation with their public, listening to opinions and saying "thanks". And they do this even on personal level, not just "thank you, guys" aiming at the crowd (although that's nice too). IMHO that's the way to go.

Another cool example is recent "birthday sale" of World of Goo (http://2dboy.com/games.php) puzzle game. Model in which everyone profits: devs and users (and Paypal, and Steam and...)

[NoaHall]

Hah like that would work, one can easily change their IP and information in a heartbeat if they knew how. And most pirates are that clever.
The more they try the more they fail to solve the problem.
Really they should just give up trying, people are going to pirate one way or another.

No they aren't. Most of them are just normal people, who know little about what they are doing, they are just doing it.

[vexorian]

It is clear that, whilst unlawful file-sharing excites a strong response from all sides, it is not a victimless act. It is a genuine threat to our creative industries, Since when are those industries worthy again of the 'creative' adjective?

Anyway, no, people who pirate would probably not buy the CD if they were forced to do it. Piracy does not cause losses to the music labels anymore than it causes a cat.

But good luck torrenting ubuntu.910.iso in the uk now...

[t0p]

No they aren't. Most of them are just normal people, who know little about what they are doing, they are just doing it.

And so the "wrong people" get punished: technically aware "pirates" conceal their IP and continue to buckle their swashes, while the more "innocent" file sharer gets disconnected.

As for the ISP's inability to see whether files are being shared illegally or not: I'm sure Mandelson's advisors will have told him about this. Mandelson obviously doesn't care. His friends in big business have told him to do something about the evil "pirates" stealing billions of euros from the mouths of pop stars, and he's acting accordingly.

Please note: this particular policy has nothing to do with votes. It's all about big business. "New" Labour is in love with big business. The voters are insignificant compared to the billionaires with whom Mandelson shares his bed.

[gnuvistawouldbecool]

But good luck torrenting ubuntu.910.iso in the uk now...

If that actually happens, I intend to have my own internet connection by then, and I intend to seed just about every distro I can download, 24/7, just to spite them. Mostly becuase they'll be able to see that it's perfectly legal. And it's not like there is a reasonable excuse to not do that unless you have limited download/upload per month or care about leaving a server on...

[Johnsie]

I'm sorry, but isn't Mandy the same guy who was busted three times for corruption? What right has he to judge what we can and cannot do when he himself cannot abide by the laws passed by his own government?

Also, Peter Mandelson is NOT an elected representative of the people of the UK. Why is he so powerful? I don't see why he was slipped into cabinet when he isn't even an MP.

[coldReactive]

Hah like that would work, one can easily change their IP and information in a heartbeat if they knew how. And most pirates are that cleaver.

I used to be a pirate for a while, but I didn't know how to change my IP sadly. Ever since Dethember 07 though, I've never been a "software" pirate. I only get codecs (thanks to K-Lite, or medibuntu) and some music for free (usually in the music department, it's either from newgrounds, or archive.org cache.)

I never redistributed software though. (Unconsciously, yes, through torrenting, but consciously, no.)

[CJ Master]

Another cool example is recent "birthday sale" of World of Goo (http://2dboy.com/games.php) puzzle game. Model in which everyone profits: devs and users (and Paypal, and Steam and...)

Paypal definantly didn't do very well, but yes I enjoyed the birthday sale as well.

[Zoot7]

A lot of artist are now starting to offer their music and such directly online. I would rather pay them directly then to give most of the money to a record company. The record companies hate that. I have no problem paying for good content.
I whole heartedly agree!

Music is one of the biggest jems we have IMO. It truly is a fantastic work of creativity, and art of any form should be shared, not copyrighted to the last and be integral for some corporation to screw people for money at any cost.
Why such a ruthless capitalist industry has to be attached to it is beyond me. Record labels have screwed both customers and artist for decades and all they're trying to do now is hold on to an impractical and insustainable business model. Technology must be harnessed, it can't be fought.

Anyway, the day I can pay artists directly for their work I will, not some capitalist who cares for nothing but money, and that same capitalist isn't going to dictate how I use an essential service in todays world.

For anyone who doesn't know, the last ISP I was with (Eircom - Irelands biggest ISP) hopped into bed with the music industry and blocked the pirate bay, and are promising more action in the future.
http://torrentfreak.com/eircom-agrees-to-block-pirate-bay-access-090820/
I left them the following day. :)

[Big Iain]

so what if my neighbour hacked my wifi and downloaded illegal files... well ive got my alibi ready

[meho_r]

Paypal definantly didn't do very well, but yes I enjoyed the birthday sale as well.

Hehe, thinking of it again and all those 0.01$, yes, you're right:D But the concept is OK.

[Ms_Angel_D]

I just don't get how kicking people of the Internet makes them buy things?


OH MY I JUST LOST MY INTERNET SHEESH GUESS I'LL GO BUY SOME MUSIC & MOVIES!

[Faolan84]

Government: Telling you to bend over and take it since 7000 BC!

[hobo14]

maybe less people would pirate material if the people producing it didn't make such obscene amounts of money.


Your use of "pirate" is correct; someone copying large quantities for profit.

Unfortunately, most people (including politicians) use "pirate" to mean anyone copying anything illegally, in any quantity, for any purpose.

So the vast majority of "pirates" are end users like us, sharing music and video, not people making a profit.

[alexcckll]

IT does seem rather unnerving.

I take it there's no change to the legal status of watching footage others may have unofficially put up on Youtube? As in - perfectly legal to *watch*?

I haven't uploaded anything, and I reckon I've watched more full shows on iPlayer and 4OD than elsewhere; I don't use torrents at all... and am more likely to campaign for a legitimate release of old material.

For instance - I *could* fire up Transmission and download a copy of the old Dave Clark album "Time".. but I'd prefer to buy it on CD or as unrestricted MP3s... as i had it on vinyl.

If only the UK Govt and music industry would get a clue...

[kpholmes]

1. Hook yourself to a public wifi hotspot.
2. ???
3. PROFIT!

HAHAHAHAHA i freaking love south park!!!!

the new episode tonight was hilarous!

[Faolan84]

@kpholmes
Saw your avatar and thought you were someone else :P For a second there I thought there I thought I spotted a bug. You're avatar is the same as KiwiNZ's

Yes, I identify people by avatar first, then user name.

[Rambar]

maybe less people would pirate material if the people producing it didn't make such obscene amounts of money.

I agree. Lower prices = more sales = less piracy.

[handy]

In Oz, Senator Conroy has been the front man for many months, of a conspiracy to nationally censor the internet in this country.

The initial reason given was to protect children from paedophiles. As time went by other reasons were added as to why we needed protecting from our freedom of choice.

Then P2P needed to be stopped as well. I guess that was somehow being used by paedophiles as well!

Well over 95% of the specialised authorities in this country have said that this censorship is the wrong thing to do. It will have no positive effect on protecting people, nor will it shut down those that are doing illegal things.

What it will do is make the internet less useful for the average user, & have no effect on anyone who knows a little about computers. One of the groups least limited by these restrictions will be school children. As they have computer nous & a great verbal communication network at school.

I see the reality behind this conspiracy as being a load of bull, that is being used in an attempt to cunningly disguise moves by big business to get control of the internet in this country for their own profit & political ends.

[bruno9779]

Piracy, especially in the music world, is something that could bring Art back in what is only business nowadays.

Pseudo-artists, barely able to sing or play any music, make millions selling records that are more edited than recorded.

The "worst" case scenario, in which musicians cannot make a living off records anymore, would have great side effects:

- Musicians will have to play to eat (gigs, concerts and generally so much more live music)
- the death of Pop
- the revenue of music devided between much more people

Just think at a scenario in which musicians publish their work online for free, to get the visibility for their gigs. Awesome

[Tom Mann]

If that actually happens, I intend to have my own internet connection by then, and I intend to seed just about every distro I can download, 24/7, just to spite them. Mostly becuase they'll be able to see that it's perfectly legal. And it's not like there is a reasonable excuse to not do that unless you have limited download/upload per month or care about leaving a server on...


I love this!
I'm in the UK and have a optware'd WD MyBook World with Transmission on it. It's on 24/7 and will be seeding the Ubuntu, Kubuntu 9.10, and every other distro I can think of too!

[ukripper]

I think Lord Mandy(who is corrupt himself) will transform legal downloaders into rebellion illegal(according to Gov.) sharers - "I can feel it coming in the air tonight, oh LORD" Phil is so right about his song.....downloading now...

[cascade9]

Depends which end of the parrot you dip, I hear. :o

Damn, I was just throwing the parrot into the rum, and pulling it out when it looked drunk, or was starting drown. Whatever came first. Thanks for the tip :D


In Oz, Senator Conroy has been the front man for many months, of a conspiracy to nationally censor the internet in this country.

The initial reason given was to protect children from paedophiles. As time went by other reasons were added as to why we needed protecting from our freedom of choice.

Then P2P needed to be stopped as well. I guess that was somehow being used by paedophiles as well!

Well over 95% of the specialised authorities in this country have said that this censorship is the wrong thing to do. It will have no positive effect on protecting people, nor will it shut down those that are doing illegal things.

What it will do is make the internet less useful for the average user, & have no effect on anyone who knows a little about computers. One of the groups least limited by these restrictions will be school children. As they have computer nous & a great verbal communication network at school.

I see the reality behind this conspiracy as being a load of bull, that is being used in an attempt to cunningly disguise moves by big business to get control of the internet in this country for their own profit & political ends.

I wont even start on Conroy and his 'OMG somebody think of the children, and if your against this plan you must be a paedophile' rants.

Copyright infringement is one thing, kiddie porn is something far nastier. Yuck.

I sort of agree about 'conspiracy' but I wouldnt just lay the blame at big business. The federal government is all for the idea as well. Lets face it, a lot of the world internet traffic is p2p, and I'm sure that some cunning ******* in government though 'hey, if we can the p2p, then even with the #%&^#% internet filter speeds might even go up! woohoo, we wins!'

I will admit a few things though... I have used p2p here and there. While I'm yet to see dodgy child porn posted on TPB (please dont link if yuo know I'm wrong on this) but I have seen some...er...questionable .jpg and .avi tiltes on soulseek a few times. You dont need to know the names, but in the one instance I knew it was from an australian IP I logged the IP, the time, went to a phone booth and called the federal police.


Your use of "pirate" is correct; someone copying large quantities for profit.

Unfortunately, most people (including politicians) use "pirate" to mean anyone copying anything illegally, in any quantity, for any purpose.

So the vast majority of "pirates" are end users like us, sharing music and video, not people making a profit.

I really hate the 'priacy' term, for just that reason. Lets face it, theres adifference between dling some new release, still in the cinemas movie, dling rhe episode of Lost you missed, or dling a live bootleg or unreleased demos by some band.

Edit- wow, the term for 'illegitimate child' is edited here? o.O

[PhoenixMaster00]

What a great way to discourage ;)

Seriously though maybe these people should look at why people download. A digital copy is to expensive for what it is. Its not a rare thing its unlimited, just copy and paste for a new one. A lot of musicians make their money from live shows which i know most people will go and pay for (I know i do when my favourites turn up near me).

I wouldnt mind a system wear Music is free (or like 10p), donations to the artists can be made and additional content such as backstage videos, making of videos, recorded sets (If its a DJ) and other such stuff can be purchased additionally. I think it would benefit everyone :p

[handy]

Under no circumstances do I support child pornography in any way. I should have put that in a previous post I suppose. Though I thought it would just be taken for granted.

Following is good article on the Guardian website on the thread topic (hopefully I haven't missed that it has already been posted in this thread? :oops:):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/oct/18/public-poll-filesharers-internet-ban

A very important statement in the linked to thread follows:

An inquiry into the issue by the all-party parliamentary communications group concluded last week that "much of the problem with illegal sharing of copyrighted material has been caused by the rightsholders, and the music industry in particular, being far too slow in getting their act together and making popular legal alternatives available".

It added: "We do not believe that disconnecting end users is in the slightest bit consistent with policies that attempt to promote eGovernment, and we recommend that this approach to dealing with illegal filesharing should not be further considered."

We are in a period of transition, the old guys are holding onto their power for grim death, which slows down the emergence & acceptance of the coming new ways.

[tc3000]

Lord Meddlesome needs to get disconnected from the government.
House of Lords needs to be abolished.

[phrostbyte]

"No free man shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed, nor will we go upon him nor send upon him, except by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land." -Magna Carta

Wheren't the Brits the ones who came up with the concept of "due process"?

:confused:

[phrostbyte]

I see the reality behind this conspiracy as being a load of bull, that is being used in an attempt to cunningly disguise moves by big business to get control of the internet in this country for their own profit & political ends.


The only government that can properly enforce copyright law as it is, is a fascist government with deep and constant surveillance on it's entire populace. The kind of people who want to make 1984 a non-fiction work have a powerful friend in Copyright law.

[t0p]

From the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/oct/29/talktalk-threatens-legal-action-mandelson): ISPs including TalkTalk and BT are opposed to this idea - though mostly because of cost, I suspect. Still, TalkTalk are threatening to take "legal action" against Mandelson about this. But I don't really understand what sort of legal action. Also, if this anti-filesharing crap becomes law, all ISPs will shut up and toe the line. Fact.

Also, there has been a ruling by the European Court that diconnection of internet access does not constitute an infringement of human rights. So it might not be a problem for them if we have our connection cut off without a trial, as per the goverment's plan. We'd have a right of appeal, but no right to a trial. Mighty unfair. And in this increasingly online-oriented world, is it correct to say internet access is not a fundamental right? Isn't it intertwined with the right to free speech, the right to assembly, the right to free association? Or is this talk of "rights" irrelevant in the UK where we have no rights?

[ukripper]

it seems Labour is turning into communist party!

[ukripper]

Rory's (BBC's correspondent) blog - http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/08/peter_just_doesnt_get_the.html

[handy]

It seems to me to be all about protecting the right of those with the financial might, to control what they will, so as to maintain their ability to control what they will.

Right wing in the extreme.

This stuff is an ongoing battle that is happening in multiple parts of the world simultaneously.

[cascade9]

Under no circumstances do I support child pornography in any way. I should have put that in a previous post I suppose. Though I thought it would just be taken for granted.

Of course it was, and sorry if I gave you the impression that you did.

Damned Conroy/Rudd and 'smiling facism'. :evil:

[handy]

Of course it was, and sorry if I gave you the impression that you did.

Misinterpretation is the bane of forums; we miss out on so many cues sitting at our computers typing messages to people on the other side of the world (or in another state as the case may be). :)



Damned Conroy/Rudd and 'smiling facism'. :evil:

& they are just the front men;- the complex of faceless power players behind them that we can't even vote in or out, & that often hold sway over politicians in many parts of the world are the real worry (to me at least), as they are so difficult to influence.

[Viva]

About time if you ask me. I do hope they use a reliable algorithm to differentiate between legal and illegal file sharing though.

[handy]

About time if you ask me. I do hope they use a reliable algorithm to differentiate between legal and illegal file sharing though.

I think its called (no)trial & error.

[Viva]

It seems to me to be all about protecting the right of those with the financial might, to control what they will, so as to maintain their ability to control what they will.

Right wing in the extreme.

This stuff is an ongoing battle that is happening in multiple parts of the world simultaneously.

They are 'right' in every sense of the word. They have the right to protect their rights too.

[koshatnik]

Agreed! Why they waste money on such policies is beyond my thinking.

Because just like in America, huge corporations dictacte policy, not politicians.

Do as we want, or we will take our tax dollars/pounds elsewhere.

Same old crap.

[Dimitriid]

Hey in the UK gamers have to wait weeks, months or even more to get the priviledge of paying 20, 30% more for the exact same game or sometimes even more. Then imports are highly restricted and import stores are harrassed. Then pirates are persecuted.

If you leave paying customers no reasonable option to get what they want of course they'll turn to piracy.

[Dimitriid]

Because just like in America, huge corporations dictacte policy, not politicians.


Actually this gets ignored or derailed in every single topic but its not even about profits, its about control: there is not a single company that to me has successfully proven loss of profits due to downloading, mainly because you CANNOT reasonable claim that a download is a sale lost.

Think about it, how can you reasonably claim that a potential customer equals a sale 100% of the time? That is basically what they do with the numbers they present when they talk about
"profit loss" from downloading.

Not only that there is a clear distinction between "piracy" and downloading: piracy means that an unauthorized party charges actual money for copyrighted material they duplicate without paying any royalties to anybody. Piracy its what happens in places like China when you can walk into a retail store and purchase a generic DVD with no labels which is an unauthorized copy of the software. Downloading is therefore not the same thing since no money is being exchanged when downloading.

So you take the numbers from people that actually sells physical copies of your property for money ( which can reasonable be considered a profit loss ) and claim that downloading should equate to those numbers as well ( even though money never changes hands ).

This types of arguments always get censored or ignored on all piracy threads but I will continue to repeat it until more people come to they senses and start behaving as cheerleaders from corporations which are clearly lying about a problem.

[hyperdude111]

This means that if I download a ubuntu torrent to release stress on the canonical servers I am going to get a letter from my ISP accusing me of file sharing.

Going to have to fine some sort of proxy.

Whats even worse is that some music artists campaigned against this heavy handed decision yet Mandelson is doing it anyway.

[Dimitriid]

This means that if I download a ubuntu torrent to release stress on the canonical servers I am going to get a letter from my ISP accusing me of file sharing.

Going to have to fine some sort of proxy.

Whats even worse is that some music artists campaigned against this heavy handed decision yet Mandelson is doing it anyway.

Use a VPN to tunnel all your connections through it.

[Tipped OuT]

The only people who are whining now, are the people who use file sharers.

First of all, there is NO NEED for file sharers. Ever heard of MegaUpload? Sendspace? Rapidshare? Yeah, you can upload your LEGAL content and share it with people! AND... you don't have to worry about seeding! The download is high speed and consistent! Amazing, I know!

"But wha' bout us simple folks who use torrents to download Ubuntu?"

It's called a direct download. It's been there since the day I can remember.

[Alexstone]

The only people who are whining now, are the people who use file sharers.

First of all, there is NO NEED for file sharers. Ever heard of MegaUpload? Sendspace? Rapidshare? Yeah, you can upload your LEGAL content and share it with people! AND... you don't have to worry about seeding! The download is high speed and consistent! Amazing, I know!

"But wha' bout us simple folks who use torrents to download Ubuntu?"

It's called a direct download. It's been there since the day I can remember.

Sorry, but it's not that easy. I won't speak for others, but i prefer torrents for my linux stuff, as each package gets checksummed along the way, and i've had far fewer hassles with a greater chance of a "clean" ISO, the first time around.

Also worth remembering that as a global community, with hundreds of servers to choose from when D/L, including multiple servers when using torrents, the user has great access to Linux across the planet, and if restrictive laws inhibit this, it's not only going to affect users, but developers who code and upload constantly.

Mandy's credibility is already shot, through 2 previous incidents when he was removed from government for questionable integrity. No surprise here that he's seen fit to proclaim edicts as he wants, for his corporate friends.

This law might be useful for Microsoft, Apple, and the record companies, and seem to offer a certain degree of protection for us one-man composer/writer/performer types, but in it's current form, it's going to indiscriminately penalise many others, possibly including heavy linux users and developers. This law, however worded, is designed purely to protect the monolithic business model of old, and will offer nothing to anyone else, outside of the current corporate cabal.

And if you think the current GB gov has the intelligence or the intent to apply this law carefully, and objectively, then your view of the last 12 years is considerably removed from mine. Their record in IT management of anything, including sensitive material like joe public's personal information, has consistently, and spectacularly failed.

Beware the corporate sponsored snake oil salesman shaped like a politican.

[Tipped OuT]

<snip>

Then that's just your problem. There's many other pratical, LEGAL ways to share and obtain files online.

The only thing the majority of people use torrents for is for illegal activities.

If you're not that majority, then it should be no problem to use websites like MegaUpload, Sendspace and Rapidshare.

Time to make a change and fix this damn economy and stop thinking about yourself.

[meho_r]

The only people who are whining now, are the people who use file sharers.

First of all, there is NO NEED for file sharers. Ever heard of MegaUpload? Sendspace? Rapidshare? Yeah, you can upload your LEGAL content and share it with people! AND... you don't have to worry about seeding! The download is high speed and consistent! Amazing, I know!

"But wha' bout us simple folks who use torrents to download Ubuntu?"

It's called a direct download. It's been there since the day I can remember.

Amazing! Thanks for informing us, we didn't know that. Let us all kiss torrents goodbye, we have direct downloads, folks :D

[hyperdude111]

Then that's just your problem. There's many other pratical, LEGAL ways to share and obtain files online.

The only thing the majority of people use torrents for is for illegal activities.

If you're not that majority, then it should be no problem to use websites like MegaUpload, Sendspace and Rapidshare.

Time to make a change and fix this damn economy and stop thinking about yourself.

We are recommended by canonical to download ubuntu with torrents because they release stress on their servers saving them money. Go ahead dislike illegal torrenting but the bittorrent protocol is just another download method that doesn't cripple host servers.

What do you say to those who watch films on sites like youtube, or those who upload music to rapidshare.

Torrents offer the best control to bandwidth usage, download pausing and other features direct downloads don't support.

[Tipped OuT]

<snip>
You can pause and start direct downloads too. What do I say to the people who are watching YouTube vids and direct downloads? I say "right on".

If Canonical was smart they would upload their ISO's to an external site. Like I said, there's always alternatives, torrent are not required.

[hyperdude111]

You can pause and start direct downloads too. What do I say to the people who are watching YouTube vids and direct downloads? I say "right on".

If Conacical was smart they would upload their ISO's to an external site. Like I said, there's always alternatives, torrent are not required.

So those who pirate on youtube are fine and those who pirate using direct downloads are fine ?

It seems you are not against piracy but against torrents for some non explained irrational reason.

Just because what torrents do direct downloads can do slightly worse does mean torrents are not 100% necessary, but under the same logic the neither are direct downloads !

[Barrucadu]

Thank you, Tipped OuT, for enlightening us as to the utter uselessness and inferiority of torrents compared to direct downloads.

[cascade9]

The only people who are whining now, are the people who use file sharers.

First of all, there is NO NEED for file sharers. Ever heard of MegaUpload? Sendspace? Rapidshare? Yeah, you can upload your LEGAL content and share it with people! AND... you don't have to worry about seeding! The download is high speed and consistent! Amazing, I know!

"But wha' bout us simple folks who use torrents to download Ubuntu?"

It's called a direct download. It's been there since the day I can remember.

Funny enough, Rapidshare, etc, get used for copyright infringement as much as anything legal.

Apart from that, the system sucks. Ohh, look, I just d/led a 100MB file, now I have to wait for 100 minutes to get the next part. Bah to that! Plus, I get faster speeds from torrents than I've ever seen from Rapidshare. Maybe if I paid to become a 'premium user' things would be different, but I'm not paying when torrents are, IMO, a much better system. Incidentally, I do know of several people who use Rapidshare for file sharing, and they get premium user free because they uplaod more than X amount per month. (from memory if was a few GB a month)


We are recommended by canonical to download ubuntu with torrents because they release stress on their servers saving them money. Go ahead dislike illegal torrenting but the bittorrent protocol is just another download method that doesn't cripple host servers.

What do you say to those who watch films on sites like youtube, or those who upload music to rapidshare.

Torrents offer the best control to bandwidth usage, download pausing and other features direct downloads don't support.

+1.

Edit- "You can pause and start direct downloads too". Yeah, true, but it can be dodgy. Doesnt really let you shut down your computer and go to bed, and then start the DL again when yu boot up next.

[Tipped OuT]

So those who pirate on youtube are fine and those who pirate using direct downloads are fine...

I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. You're getting ahead of yourself.

EDIT: Anyone else want to debate with me? Or does everyone want to sit on the sidelines and make smart remarks (as if it makes you right).

[meho_r]

...

EDIT: Anyone else want to debate with me? ...

No, let's party :D

[Tipped OuT]

No, let's party :D

Much rather prefer that! :D

[Alexstone]

I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. You're getting ahead of yourself.

EDIT: Anyone else want to debate with me? Or does everyone want to sit on the sidelines and make smart remarks (as if it makes you right).

Noooo, i don't think any of us could keep up with you.

It's quite clear you're a master debater.

:)

[phrostbyte]

The only people who are whining now, are the people who use file sharers.

First of all, there is NO NEED for file sharers. Ever heard of MegaUpload? Sendspace? Rapidshare? Yeah, you can upload your LEGAL content and share it with people! AND... you don't have to worry about seeding! The download is high speed and consistent! Amazing, I know!

"But wha' bout us simple folks who use torrents to download Ubuntu?"

It's called a direct download. It's been there since the day I can remember.

This is not about BitTorrent. You seem to think they care only BitTorrent.

Those "direct download" sites also have a lot of unauthorized copyrighted materials on them. For all we know, using Rapidshare, etc. will automatically flag you as a pirate anyways. So your solution will not work.

[gnuvistawouldbecool]

The only people who are whining now, are the people who use file sharers.

"But wha' bout us simple folks who use torrents to download Ubuntu?"

It's called a direct download. It's been there since the day I can remember.

The reason I use a torrent is simple, it takes ages to download anything where I live, and I don't trust firefox not to crash.

wget -c is all very well, but if I use a torrent I can force a recheck if it fails at md5.

[Tipped OuT]

This is not about Torrents.You seem to think they care only BitTorrent.

Those "direct download" sites also have a lot of unauthorized copyrighted materials on them. For all we know, using Rapidshare, etc. will automatically flag you as a pirate anyways. So your solution will not work
My solution is to lower the amount of piraters. Torrents are what mostly used for such behavers.

At least sites like Rapidshare N Megaupload try their best 2 spot N remove illegal content.

[Faolan84]

Okay, let's say I form a music band, and my business model is to put my music up on BitTorrent and let people have it for free if they want it. Instead, my band plans on making money through doing gigs and selling CDs at the gigs and at local Mom & Pop type stores.

If I were to ouse the same system with a direct download system, I would have to pay some hosting company to store and distrubute my content. With the amount of content that my band might be distributing for free, that could easily get expensive.

In this situation BitTorrent would be a favorable model and all of this would be legal.

[Zoot7]

At least sites like Rapidshare N Megaupload try their best 2 spot N remove illegal content.
Thing is though.. Remove all the copyrighted content and you remove pretty much everything. :)

[Tipped OuT]

Okay what if..
What if? What if? What if? What if zombies rose from the dead and...

stop.

I know you said "let's say" but it's the same thing.

[Faolan84]

Yes, but just because something is copyrighted doesn't mean it's illegal so share it. Some content makers allow for their content to be reproduced freely as long as trademarks are not abused and what not. Alex Jones is a good example, he encourges people to put his documentaries up on BitTorrent. It's just good advertising, and it entices more people to buy it because there's a difference to most people between owning a copy burned to a disc and having a nice box, with a nice stamped disc inside it.

[Faolan84]

What if? What if? What if? What if zombies rose from the dead and...

stop.

I know you said "let's say" but it's the same thing.

I also cited a very legitimate scenario too. I lot of bands ARE doing things like this and that is why I gave you this example. I didn't just pull it out of my ***.

Are you saying those bands should not be allowed to conduct their business the way they see fit if they are not signed onto any contract that states otherwise?

[hyperdude111]

My solution is to lower the amount of piraters. Torrents are what mostly used for such behavers.

At least sites like Rapidshare N Megaupload try their best 2 spot N remove illegal content.

You cant just ban torrents because that is what pirates mostly use.

In the 1990's the transit van was involved in 90% of armed robberies in the UK. Should they have banned the transit van ?



http://www.legaltorrents.com/ - A website dedicated to entirely legal torrents.

http://www.goear.com/ - A website dedicated to entirely illegal direct downloads for music.

Its not torrents that are the problem its what people use them for, the solution should not be to ban torrents but to make it less appealing with more services such as iplayer, lowering prices and education about the damage piracy does to the industry.

Banning torrents will not stop piracy but just move pirate over to another method while eradicating an entirely legal download protocol.


If we ban all protocols for transferring files because they are all used for piracy there would be no Internet and thus we would be far less technologically advanced.

[JillSwift]

All protocols for transferring files can be and are used for illegal activities.

Thus they should all be removed.

Reductio ad absurdum FTW.

That monolithic downloading sites "do their best" to "spot copyrighted material" is irrelevant. They are still heavily used - primarily used - to infringe copyright.

[Tipped OuT]

I also cited a very legitimate scenario too. I lot of bands ARE doing things like this and that is why I gave you this example. I didn't just pull it out of my ***.

Are you saying those bands should not be allowed to conduct their business the way they see fit if they are not signed onto any contract that states otherwise?

No. Thing is, in life you don't always get what you want.

[Tipped OuT]

You cant just ban torrents..

Like I said before, I never said that. lol.

You made a good point though.

[Faolan84]

So in otherwords you are saying that as I small business I should be marginailized for the "benefit" of the larger corporations? No thanks. We tried that already and it didn't work.

[Tipped OuT]

So in otherwords you are saying that as I small business I should be marginailized for the "benefit" of the larger corporations? No thanks. We tried that already and it didn't work.

Okay, you do what you want, this is just a debate lol.

[Faolan84]

Okay, you do what you want, this is just a debate lol.

Well, it just sounds like you are somehow defending the idea that the corporations should be able to lay down all the rules to their own befit. Maybe that is not what you were hinting at, but it sure sounded like that. Content distributors should be able to use any means they see fit to transfer their product into the hands of their consumer base. There is no law making file sharing illegal and therefore companies should not complain about it.

If some corporation goes out of business because they were too slow to adapt to societal changes that is their problem. The problem is that these people that run these companies would rather be out playing golf than looking at how they could change their business model to the new social paradigm. For that, they deserve to go out of business.

What executives don't understand is that they don't have a right to profits -- much less a right to increasing profits every quarter (which is unsustainable anyways). They will eventually hit the ceiling and be knocked down.

Also, current copyright law in the US is unconstitutional anyways. The original law, and the only law that should be recognized is the 14 years, plus 14 years extension law. I'm sorry, but if you can't make an idea work in 28 years, it ain't working for you.

[Tipped OuT]

Well..

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm just debating whether or not torrents are truely neccasesary or if there are alternatives.

[oxf]

Lord Meddlesome needs to get disconnected from the government.
House of Lords needs to be abolished.

+1
Unfortunately if there's an election before long its likely the new government will be even less inclined to change things. And we have no reason to rant on about democracy here, there, and everywhere when we have to sort out our own back yard!

[ice60]

Nice idea, only if Lily allen could appreciate how she earned respect by sharing her music on myspace and now hypocritically going against sharers
have you seen this? lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL9-esIM2CY

[wulfgang]

I like the old ways of dealing with piracy. Let thousands pirate daily, but sue one random person who only does it once a quarter million. Use them as a warning.

[Faolan84]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm just debating whether or not torrents are truely neccasesary or if there are alternatives.

Considering the fact that I've had a more quality experience with torrents (see above issues stated about data corruption), I would have to say that is necessary. There's nothing that amounts to the frustration of having to download the openSUSE install DVD four times just to say "screw it" and have to order the CD from some vendor because the download kept getting corrupted. Ever since I switched to using BitTorrent, I've never had these issues. If there was some way of doing file checks to ensure data integrity I would consider using direct downloads, but since that is not possible I use torrents because they are just more dependable.

Personally, I would like to see a hybrid system where you could download from both a direct source AND torrents so that if the mirror is down you could have a "torrent" that could both cycle through multiple mirror, choose the best one, and all the while download from peers at the same time. While all this is going on you can have data checks to ensure integrity. It would be the best of both worlds.

[t0p]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm just debating whether or not torrents are truely neccasesary or if there are alternatives.

That's not true. You also said bittorrent is mostly used for illegal activities, and you implied that bittorrent ought to be banned because of that:


Then that's just your problem. There's many other pratical, LEGAL ways to share and obtain files online.

The only thing the majority of people use torrents for is for illegal activities.

If you're not that majority, then it should be no problem to use websites like MegaUpload, Sendspace and Rapidshare.

Time to make a change and fix this damn economy and stop thinking about yourself.

As has already been said, Rapidshare and its ilk have rules that make you wait an hour or something between downloads. This makes multi-part downloads a painful task. Plus you can't pause and resume downloads from most upload sites.

Anyway, bittorrent is used for many legal purposes. There's no reason to ban bittorrent. And the majority of the files carried by Rapidshare, Megaupload and their like contain "pirated" content. If bittorrent "should go", so do those upload sites. By your logic.

Oh, and what does bittorrent have to do with the broken economy? Are you suggesting the economy wouldn't have slumped if file-sharing didn't exist?

[murderslastcrow]

I think we need to do something more like standard television, where the music/movies are free, but paid for buy ads. hulu already does this with cable television online. I don't see why projects like spotify could not be more common and offer people alternative to pirating their faces off.

I believe that, with more of these services, we would get more encouragement to do honest things, like donate to the music and movies you enjoy long-term, buy commercial software rather than crack it, etc. etc.

I think, especially, if average users didn't think the only way to get their music was with DRM and restrictions, they might be more willing to buy it. I think if the RIAA and music industry didn't criminalize their users and allowed them to do whatever they want with their music (as when they purchase a CD), then there would be a lot less trouble in this area.

[handy]

What if? What if? What if? What if zombies rose from the dead and...

stop.

I know you said "let's say" but it's the same thing.

I think you may very well be a troll.

You aren't showing us your master debating skills here, you will very likely insight emotions & get the thread closed, which may very well be your intention.

[handy]

@dimitriid: I agree with your points made regarding the false correlation between the sharing of illegal copies & corporate profit.

I think that a huge percentage (I can't know the exact percentage) of illegal downloads of software & movies in particular would never have been bought by the person who downloaded it anyway.

I think that illegal file sharing in those instances has only a very small financial effect on the owners of the product. With regard to movies, the theatres also would only suffer slightly, due to the many going to the movie to see whatever, on the BIG screen. Video hire stores would likely suffer the most, how much? Can't say.

Many choose to download software & check it out before making the financial commitment, I know I have done that in the past. Others just get it & use it because it is available, they would never use it otherwise.

The music industry is the trickiest of all. It is in a process of change. The old ways are being defended (particularly in the U.S.) by the big corporations who make all the money out of the music industry. Most musicians make their living out of performing, few reach the mega status of making money out of the miserable percentage that their recording contracts allow them.

Other systems are developing that are different to how it used to be; the Cloud; the ability to purchase music & movies online in a variety of forms, are good examples of such change.

These changes will hurt some & help others, as change usually does.

The real problem as I see it, that we are facing all over the world is that the corporations want to own & control the internet.

This is our battle.

The battle to keep the freedom of choice & expression, that many of us experience now, & not end up with an internet where we are censored & being directly debited for a variety of internet services each day of our lives.

Who wants a system where censorship & control has been implemented by national governments on behalf of the mega-corporations?

Such a system is just not acceptable.

Such systems continue to place limitations on our freedom & to enlarge the divide between those that have & those that have not.

Such systems are an intolerable crime against humanity.

[Tipped OuT]

That's not true. You also said bittorrent is mostly used for illegal activities, and you implied that bittorrent ought to be banned because of that

Eh, nope. You made that up yourself. I just gave a reason why torrents aren't so good. Never said anything about banning them.

*sigh*

[Tipped OuT]

I think you may very well be a troll.

You aren't showing us your master debating skills here, you will very likely insight emotions & get the thread closed, which may very well be your intention.

Yeah, every one is a troll these days.

[Tipped OuT]

Considering the fact that I've had a more quality experience with torrents (see above issues stated about data corruption), I would have to say that is necessary. There's nothing that amounts to the frustration of having to download the openSUSE install DVD four times just to say...

From what I read, I kinda agree.

And sorry for the triple post people, not using a PC to access the forums, so replies are limited.

[handy]

Yeah, every one is a troll these days.

Perhaps the words troll & pirate both share a common problem; being the misapprehension of their true & correct meanings.

[Tipped OuT]

Perhaps the words troll & pirate both share a common problem; being the misapprehension of their true & correct meanings.

Meh, well I just don't appreciate someone calling me a troll for not wanting to deal with the "What if.." questions.

I try my best to keep things civil as possible.

I apologies otherwise.

[CJ Master]

Yeah, every one is a troll these days.

He ADMITS it! LYNCH HIM!

[handy]

Meh, well I just don't appreciate someone calling me a troll for not wanting to deal with the "What if.." questions.

I try my best to keep things civil as possible.

I apologies otherwise.

No need for apologies, I posted back when I saw that particular post, I became more educated as far as your posting style as I read further into the thread, so, my apologies too. ;)

It is so easy for people to misinterpret the written word, especially when we are typing in a hurry, or don't like using many words.

Forums are full of misunderstandings due to the lack of all the other cues.

[cascade9]

That's not true. You also said bittorrent is mostly used for illegal activities, and you implied that bittorrent ought to be banned because of that:
Eh, nope. You made that up yourself. I just gave a reason why torrents aren't so good. Never said anything about banning them.

*sigh*

You never said 'ban' but IMO you implied it. You sure DID say that its mostly used for 'illegal' activities.


Then that's just your problem. There's many other pratical, LEGAL ways to share and obtain files online.

The only thing the majority of people use torrents for is for illegal activities.

If you're not that majority, then it should be no problem to use websites like MegaUpload, Sendspace and Rapidshare.

Time to make a change and fix this damn economy and stop thinking about yourself.

Like a few other peoplehave siad, Rapidshare, etc get used mostly for 'illegal' activities. Are they really necessary?


I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm just debating whether or not torrents are truely neccasesary or if there are alternatives.

Is a dual/triple/quad core CPU necessary? 2GB+ of RAM necessary? No, Ol Bill was right, computers will never NEED more than 640K. But things sure are nicer with faster CPUs, massive amounts of RAM, etc. Torrents sure are nicer than direct downloads. Again, like I (and others) have siad, theres that horrible pause when you d/l multi-part files from Rapidshare, etc. Necessary? No. Nicer, yes.

Its also good for the people who are distributing legal downloads by torrent. Bandwidth costs, and IMO torrents are a handy way of saving bandwidth costs for organisations that dont have large buckets of money, and what money they do have would be better spent somewhere else.


All protocols for transferring files can be and are used for illegal activities.

Thus they should all be removed.

Reductio ad absurdum FTW.

That monolithic downloading sites "do their best" to "spot copyrighted material" is irrelevant. They are still heavily used - primarily used - to infringe copyright.

Succint as always. Thats the whole problem, if you can transfer files, then it can be used for dodgy purposes. Even if all copyright infringment was wiped off the net, and I doubt that is possible without big-brother style surveillance and/or DPI (deep packet inspection) file sharing would still exist.

Some people would just go back to trading via discs via post. There was enough of that as soon as tapes got around, mainly for bootlegs but also for normal releases. That was with silly magnetic tapes, CDs pushed it much further, DVDs have much more storage, and what with lossless compression and high quality video rips its much easier these days. Blu-ray data holding 25GB, you can fit whole discographies onto one disc, easy. Even @ lossless.

[ukripper]

have you seen this? lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL9-esIM2CY

Yeh seen the other day. It is hilarious...:p

[Zoot7]

have you seen this? lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL9-esIM2CY
:lolflag: :lolflag: :lolflag:

Brilliant!

[ukripper]

Finally someone realises the fact - "File-sharers are big spenders too"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8337887.stm

[TheBuzzSaw]

http://techdirt.com/articles/20091103/0434486780.shtml

The MPAA is LOLtastic.

[Zoot7]

http://techdirt.com/articles/20091103/0434486780.shtml

The MPAA is LOLtastic.

:lolflag:
It really is becoming laughable at this stage.

[fela]

Yes, here in the UK we have the BNP and stupid people trying to stop piracy. I mean, how the feg could they differentiate illegal from legal P2P? What about people innocently downloading Ubuntu isos or sharing their holiday photos with their grandma (if you like stereotypes)? Yeah, it's complete paradise over here. Everything's just wonderful (TM), in the land of Newspeak and telescreens and...oops that's going a bit far! :lolflag:

[fela]

Your ISP can easily identify if you are file sharing but it is very hard to identify each download done is legal or illegal. That is my point.

And until they develop ways of differentiating it - hopefully they never will - people will forever illegally share their prawns and there'll be heaps upon heaps of unsolved 'cases' - unless the user is stupid enough not to


for i in /directory/containing/seven/files/* ; \
do dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda ; done

before the police start knocking on the door.

[ukripper]

http://techdirt.com/articles/20091103/0434486780.shtml

The MPAA is LOLtastic.

How absurd is that statement - "Internet will die":lolflag:

[bryncoles]

Finally someone realises the fact - "File-sharers are big spenders too"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8337887.stm

Indeed. Where I'm from, this is called "biting the hand that feeds you". I have seen evidence before that filesharing simply results in the redistribution of wealth amongst the entertainment industry - allowing people to spend equal amounts of money on related leisure pursuits.

Now seems they also spend additional money on music and the music industry - £77 compared to the national average of £44 (and to our international friends, this '£' is a 'pound sign'. This '#' is a 'hash sign'. The former denotes sterling, the latter simply denotes the use of a number. I have seen, in this very forum, '#' referred to as a pound sign, and it annoys me! [/off-topic rant]).

So, to protect big business we are going to deprive its best customers of the means by which they patronise big business.

Er...

[ukripper]

Take that Mandy ----->>>In Mandelson’s face – http://www.v3.co.uk/v3/news/2252553/eu-decide-fate-illegal

“In two votes, 88 per cent of the European Parliament decided that internet service providers (ISPs) and regulators, such as Ofcom in the UK, cannot restrict individuals' access to the internet, even if they are illegal file sharers and downloaders.”



EU shines always..........

[TheBuzzSaw]

The media industries seem to think that there was no Internet until they decided to join it (10 years after it had gone mainstream). I say, go ahead. Get off the Internet. Watch the Internet thrive, er, "die" without you.

[Zoot7]

Take that Mandy ----->>>In Mandelson’s face – http://www.v3.co.uk/v3/news/2252553/eu-decide-fate-illegal

“In two votes, 88 per cent of the European Parliament decided that internet service providers (ISPs) and regulators, such as Ofcom in the UK, cannot restrict individuals' access to the internet, even if they are illegal file sharers and downloaders.”



EU shines always..........

I jumped for joy when I read that :), here:
http://torrentfreak.com/file-sharers-protected-under-proposed-eu-legislation-091105/

[nadian]

I'll jump with you - when I find out what the "fair and impartial" procedure consists of,

[Exodist]

maybe less people would pirate material if the people producing it didn't make such obscene amounts of money.

The artist themselfs for the most part dont make that much money from record sales. But the record companies that make the CDs and sell them are making a killing. 20.00 USD for a disc that cost only 0.05 USD to make is way to high. Yea a few out there like Metalica and U2 do make alot more money per CD sale, but thats becuase they reworked their contracts.