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View Full Version : An excellent comparison of Windows 7 vs Karmic in the Guardian UK



jaxxstorm
October 28th, 2009, 11:40 AM
Worth a read for everyone really - seems like a genuinely unbiased and well written comparison from an end user's point of view

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/oct/27/ubuntu-koala-windows7-review

Sealbhach
October 28th, 2009, 12:17 PM
That was good, finally a tech journalist who actually has taken the trouble to get to know Ubuntu.

.

Islington
October 28th, 2009, 12:22 PM
fair review. :KS

howefield
October 28th, 2009, 12:41 PM
..seems like a genuinely unbiased and well written comparison..

To be honest, no more or less than you would expect from someone "relatively agnostic" about operating systems and who has spent a good deal of time with several of the main ones.

Well balanced review, big change from yesterdays rumpus. Wonder if this thread will generate so many comments though ;-)

The Real Dave
October 28th, 2009, 12:58 PM
Ya, seems to be a good review :) One thing thats shocked me over the past few days, is the amount publicity and reviews Ubuntu is getting. Seems like people are really starting to see Ubuntu as a major player. This is fantastic :) Progress! :D

maflynn
October 28th, 2009, 12:59 PM
I wouldn't qualify it as a review is its a bit shallow but it did cover the main points of Ubuntu and some of win7. I don't think it was biased in any way but I also don't think it was too indepth.

Johnsie
October 28th, 2009, 01:08 PM
Yeah, this could be the year of Linux on the desktop... Yippee!!

Ubuntu always gets a little bit of media attention at release time. It's been that way since 2007 while Vista was hated by the IT world and before OSX started taking off again. Ubuntu was seen as a possible competitor to Windows. The coverage is usually kind of low profile, but then again most tech news does get low profile in the news.

Ubuntu benefitted from Vistas failures, but this time around Windows 7 is getting alot of good media attention and even many Linux users are giving it a good review. OSX is also going strong. This next 6 months could be make or break for Ubuntu in terms of becoming a viable competitor. People need to double their efforts to make sure Windows 7 and OSX don't steal all the limelight.

Earl_Maroon
October 28th, 2009, 01:18 PM
Dugg

hoppipolla
October 28th, 2009, 01:19 PM
Reading this has reminded me just how great Ubuntu can be, I mean it's so easy to take it for granted! The sheer fact that to install Ubuntu One (even though it was actually installed already! :) ) all I would need to do is type "Ubuntu One" into a search box in Add/Remove or Software Center and click install is just great.

It really is an exciting time to be using Linux ^_^

Mark76
October 28th, 2009, 01:20 PM
This comes on the heels of Microsoft's launch of Windows 7, a major update of Vista.

lol

kellemes
October 28th, 2009, 01:22 PM
Yeah, this could be the year of Linux on the desktop... Yippee!!


Why would you want this? It is on your desktop already right?
You make it sound like there is something wrong with the current position Linux has.

pwnst*r
October 28th, 2009, 01:23 PM
I don't think it was biased in any way but I also don't think it was too indepth.

doesn't need to be for the avg user. it wasn't an all out nerd article.

hoppipolla
October 28th, 2009, 01:31 PM
Why would you want this? It is on your desktop already right?
You make it sound like there is something wrong with the current position Linux has.

Personally I think it's a fantastic thing for Linux and open source to be gaining market share and true media coverage at long last. It's wonderful and could really start to sway this balance of people choosing open source over closed. And then, the sky's the limit! ^_^

koshatnik
October 28th, 2009, 01:38 PM
The article was pitched at people that have never used anything but Windows. It succeeded and it was well written. Linux is maturing, but its still not ready for general desktop use - yet. Its still for hobbyists, nerds, and the inquisitive.

hoppipolla
October 28th, 2009, 01:41 PM
The article was pitched at people that have never used anything but Windows. It succeeded and it was well written. Linux is maturing, but its still not ready for general desktop use - yet. Its still for hobbyists, nerds, and the inquisitive.

heh, I dunno maybe. Maybe.

The only thing that makes me hesitant about recommending Ubuntu to a general user now is software installations through PPAs and that stuff, it's still not QUITE simple enough to grab some of the more unusual software. That aside, I think it's ready and I also think Lucid will be SPECIAL :)

John Bean
October 28th, 2009, 01:44 PM
I wouldn't qualify it as a review is its a bit shallow
It's about right for its target audience, which is an important point. In contrast to the "infamous" BBC article where they even misspelled "Ubuntu" this article gives the impression that the author knows his subject but has avoided geekspeak which is a big turn-off for most everyday users.

Most users simply don't care what's inside the box, they just want to do their thing with it. The tone of this article clearly addresses this audience. I agree with his conclusions.

amitabhishek
October 28th, 2009, 01:47 PM
Nice comparison on top of that on a reputed web site. 3 cheers :).

@OP; thanks for posting

jmore9
October 28th, 2009, 02:08 PM
I thought it was a just and fair review. As he stated nothing is perfect.

Very good reporting

kellemes
October 28th, 2009, 02:10 PM
As he stated nothing is perfect.

Arch is.. Well, my setup anyway.. ;-)

Pasdar
October 28th, 2009, 02:11 PM
Very balanced.... Ubuntu is getting lots of coverage in mainstream media these days... canonical must be happy...

hoppipolla
October 28th, 2009, 02:16 PM
Arch is.. Well, my setup anyway.. ;-)

haha quite possibly :)

Thing is though, for many or most users things need to be "perfect" from install! Not all users can use Arch!

hoppipolla
October 28th, 2009, 02:17 PM
Very balanced.... Ubuntu is getting lots of coverage in mainstream media these days... canonical must be happy...

They do deserve it though :)

They have worked SO hard and are just redefining the Linux scene.

miggols99
October 28th, 2009, 02:20 PM
Very good comparison, finally one that is fair!

Pasdar
October 28th, 2009, 02:24 PM
They do deserve it though :)

They have worked SO hard and are just redefining the Linux scene.

Some (in the linux scene) are of the opinion that Canonical/Ubuntu is getting more attention than it deserves and that they haven't done anything worth getting attention or praise for.

Personally I think they should do much more with each release. I want to see much more than packaging new versions.

grizato
October 28th, 2009, 02:26 PM
Worth a read for everyone really - seems like a genuinely unbiased and well written comparison from an end user's point of view

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/oct/27/ubuntu-koala-windows7-review



Very good, t's making me die for ubuntu one!:)

Sealbhach
October 28th, 2009, 02:26 PM
Some (in the linux scene) are of the opinion that Canonical/Ubuntu is getting more attention than it deserves and that they haven't done anything worth getting attention or praise for.


That would be understandable, but in the wider scene, it's good for FOSS and good for Linux.

.

hoppipolla
October 28th, 2009, 02:31 PM
Some (in the linux scene) are of the opinion that Canonical/Ubuntu is getting more attention than it deserves and that they haven't done anything worth getting attention or praise for.

Personally I think they should do much more with each release. I want to see much more than packaging new versions.

Yeah but Canonical's achievements can be seen in every aspect of the Ubuntu project - the branding, the reliability, the ease of use, everything. There really is a reason why it's the biggest. I know branding is given a lot of weight these days but Canonical have done it WELL, and that deserves to be commended too.

howefield
October 28th, 2009, 02:33 PM
Linux is maturing, but its still not ready for general desktop use - yet. Its still for hobbyists, nerds, and the inquisitive.

Linux is suited for a much wider set of groups than you would have us believe... todays linux desktops are more than suitable for many many millions of everyday "normal" users who want to do everyday "normal" tasks and who couldn't in any way shape or form be termed as either "hobbyists, nerds, and the inquisitive"

amitabhishek
October 28th, 2009, 03:18 PM
They do deserve it though :)

They have worked SO hard and are just redefining the Linux scene.

If I was Warren Buffet; I'd have invested in Canonical.

koshatnik
October 28th, 2009, 03:33 PM
Linux is suited for a much wider set of groups than you would have us believe... todays linux desktops are more than suitable for many many millions of everyday "normal" users who want to do everyday "normal" tasks and who couldn't in any way shape or form be termed as either "hobbyists, nerds, and the inquisitive"

Define a normal user. Its relative. There is no such thing in reality.

Whats a normal task? For me its being able to ingest hundreds of photo's, convert them using the best possible conversion, then output them into CS3 to apply NeatImage and unsharp mask.

A normal task for my parents is to look at the internet and read email. Can they do that on linux? Yes. Can I do what I need to do as a normal task for me on linux? No.

You see - its all relative.

marchwarden
October 28th, 2009, 03:50 PM
Yeah but Canonical's achievements can be seen in every aspect of the Ubuntu project - the branding, the reliability, the ease of use, everything. There really is a reason why it's the biggest. I know branding is given a lot of weight these days but Canonical have done it WELL, and that deserves to be commended too.

I totally agree with you on that point. AFAIK Ubuntu does make contributions upstream, but it's is overshadowed by the marketing effort which, in my opinion, developers perceive to be subordinate to submitting code. In my opinion, the code would be worthless without the right marketing effort and there should be mutual respect between those that develop software and those that deliver it to end users.

With regards to the article, it appears to be a very balanced overview of both OS's.

Johnsie
October 28th, 2009, 03:59 PM
Ubuntu is just one part in the development of Linux. However it is a very, very important part. For many people it's their first introduction to Linux on the desktop.

Yes, cannonical aren't the only ones doing the work. Everyone knows that. However, the more people using open source products the more likely it is that people will be able to suggest or make improvements to those products. All Linuxes can benefit from that.

If Ubuntu can distrubute/market Linux better than anyone else and get good publicity then they deserve some praise for that...

Simian Man
October 28th, 2009, 04:02 PM
Yeah but Canonical's achievements can be seen in every aspect of the Ubuntu project - the branding, the reliability, the ease of use, everything. There really is a reason why it's the biggest. I know branding is given a lot of weight these days but Canonical have done it WELL, and that deserves to be commended too.

I totally disagree with that. The reliability mostly comes from Debian, and the ease of use mostly comes from Gnome and the exciting new features mostly come from other upstream projects. IMHO Ubuntu got to where it is based solely off marketing and branding.

Good to see Linux in the news though :).

jaxxstorm
October 28th, 2009, 04:03 PM
The main thing to be pointed out is, Karmic has had mainstream media coverage in both the BBC website and now the Guardian website.

Excellent publicity for Canonical, they must be doing somersaults right now.

howefield
October 28th, 2009, 04:05 PM
Define a normal user.

You seem best suited for that.


A normal task for my parents is to look at the internet and read email. Can they do that on linux? Yes.

So which group do your parents fall into ?

Would they be hobbyists, nerds, or inquisitive ?

Maybe they are simply people who want a computer to "look at the internet and read email". maybe they would want to do a bit more, maybe a lot more, linux would be very suited to them.


Can I do what I need to do as a normal task for me on linux? No.

What you want is irrelevant, if linux isn't suited to what you want to do, then fine, we are talking about people to whom linux is suited.

My point is that linux is suited to many more people than you appear to believe.

hoppipolla
October 28th, 2009, 04:06 PM
I totally disagree with that. The reliability mostly comes from Debian, and the ease of use mostly comes from Gnome and the exciting new features mostly come from other upstream projects. IMHO Ubuntu got to where it is based solely off marketing and branding.

Good to see Linux in the news though :).

Yeah fair point, I guess I didn't consider the degree Ubuntu relies on Debian. That was still a prudent choice on their part though, and they really have built a lot on Debian. I can't think of a more complete, friendly and reliable distro than Ubuntu at the moment.

koshatnik
October 28th, 2009, 04:10 PM
My point is that linux is suited to many more people than you appear to believe.

Cool. We disagree. C'est la vie.

Linux needs mainstream app support. As soon as it gets that, its ready. If you want to argue its ready now, then cool. No point arguing a toss over perspective.

hoppipolla
October 28th, 2009, 04:23 PM
Cool. We disagree. C'est la vie.

Linux needs mainstream app support. As soon as it gets that, its ready. If you want to argue its ready now, then cool. No point arguing a toss over perspective.

I agree it needs more support :) That will come with time though, I promise ^_^

John Bean
October 28th, 2009, 04:36 PM
Yeah but Canonical's achievements can be seen in every aspect of the Ubuntu project - the branding, the reliability, the ease of use, everything. There really is a reason why it's the biggest. I know branding is given a lot of weight these days but Canonical have done it WELL, and that deserves to be commended too.
I agree. If a misled geek could turn a half-cocked ripoff GUI shell over a hacked together 16bit copy of a clunky 8bit OS into the world's most used desktop OS by pure marketing, then there's no reason it can't be done again - only this time starting from a rather better root (pun intended).

SomeGuyDude
October 28th, 2009, 04:37 PM
Good article: one that says Ubuntu is awesome.

Bad article: one that says Ubuntu isn't.

M'kay.

Squonk07
October 28th, 2009, 04:58 PM
This was a very fair, balanced overview. I really don't disagree with anything Anderson wrote, and I'm very pleased that Ubuntu has been getting so much press lately. Karmic is a wonderful release (or will be), and it's about time the Ubuntu community's work gets some recognition.

A nice start to the day for me.

hoppipolla
October 28th, 2009, 05:01 PM
Good article: one that says Ubuntu is awesome.

Bad article: one that says Ubuntu isn't.

M'kay.

heh, I see what you mean but I don't think it's quite as simple as that! The article was just very accurate at giving Ubuntu credit where it's due, something which many forget to do entirely!

megamania
October 28th, 2009, 05:04 PM
Whats a normal task? For me its being able to ingest hundreds of photo's, convert them using the best possible conversion, then output them into CS3 to apply NeatImage and unsharp mask.

A normal task for my parents is to look at the internet and read email. Can they do that on linux? Yes. Can I do what I need to do as a normal task for me on linux? No.

You see - its all relative.
I agree. As much as I like Linux (the only OS I've used since 2004), I can only agree.

Swagman
October 28th, 2009, 05:06 PM
How much does Photoshop cost ?

Whatever it is it seems a bit steep for the average Jo/ann to pay just to remove red-eye and crop a piccie down.

SunnyRabbiera
October 28th, 2009, 05:08 PM
The article was pitched at people that have never used anything but Windows. It succeeded and it was well written. Linux is maturing, but its still not ready for general desktop use - yet. Its still for hobbyists, nerds, and the inquisitive.

I strongly disagree here, I think linux is more then ready for general desktop use.
Its just a matter of what you need, if Ubuntu is the only linux you used then you might get the feeling that linux is too complicated as yes when major hardware issues happen you have to edit some files and use command line.
But other distros might now be as complicated, like Mandriva, PClinux or SUSE who both have great hardware configuration tools.

Simian Man
October 28th, 2009, 05:13 PM
But other distros might now be as complicated, like Mandriva, PClinux or SUSE who both have great hardware configuration tools.

That's true. I really don't understand why Ubuntu doesn't have something like the control center of Mandriva or OpenSuse or, at the very least, the system-config- programs of Fedora.

aysiu
October 28th, 2009, 05:16 PM
Good article: one that says Ubuntu is awesome.

Bad article: one that says Ubuntu isn't.

M'kay.
I don't think this article says Ubuntu is awesome. It's actually quite even-handed.

I'd say a good article is one that criticizes Ubuntu for actually existing shortcomings and praises Ubuntu for actually existing advantages.

A bad article can come in all sorts of forms. One kind of bad article criticizes Ubuntu for nonexistent "shortcomings." Another criticizes Ubuntu for actually existing shortcomings but ignores all advantages. The flip side of that is a bad article that praises only Ubuntu's advantages without recognizing its shortcomings... or an article that praises Ubuntu for advantages it doesn't even have.

This article rightly recognizes that adding new repositories isn't a straightforward activity for the uninitiated and that there is a learning curve. It doesn't claim Audacity is difficult to install, unlike some badly written "articles."

I can list a ton of Ubuntu shortcomings, and I can guarantee no one will label me a Microsoft shill or call me a troll or say my article was unfair, because I actually know what real shortcomings Ubuntu has. In fact, I already have:
The Top 5 Gnome/Ubuntu Usability Bugs I’d Love to See Fixed (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-top-5-gnomeubuntu-usability-bugs-id-love-to-see-fixed-2/)
What I’d love to see in Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic Koala) (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/what-id-love-to-see-in-ubuntu-910-karmic-koala/)
The Linux community’s mixed messages (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-linux-communitys-mixed-messages/comment-page-1/)

And those are just the first three I could find.

Sealbhach
October 28th, 2009, 05:24 PM
How much does Photoshop cost ?

Whatever it is it seems a bit steep for the average Jo/ann to pay just to remove red-eye and crop a piccie down.

And make Lolcats pictures.

.

Sealbhach
October 28th, 2009, 05:25 PM
I don't think this article says Ubuntu is awesome. It's actually quite even-handed.


Exactly, the criticisms were fair and not based on ideas about Linux from the early 90s.

.

hoppipolla
October 28th, 2009, 05:44 PM
Exactly, the criticisms were fair and not based on ideas about Linux from the early 90s.

.

Amen to that! lol

j.bell730
October 28th, 2009, 06:08 PM
Actually, I was very happy with this review. I have no criticisms for it.

the fix it man
October 28th, 2009, 10:25 PM
For me a good comparison review is where each OS has the

advantages and disadvantages highlighted and a bad one is where

one OS is deemed the winner for simply being better in just one

area example "this OS does not get any virus so is the best".

Frak
October 28th, 2009, 11:14 PM
Good article: one that says Ubuntu is awesome.

Bad article: one that says Ubuntu isn't.

M'kay.
OMG, A TROLL. r u sayin dat we nly liek artiklz that poze us az heroze/

Same ole, same ole. But, yeah, I liked it.

aysiu
October 28th, 2009, 11:18 PM
OMG, A TROLL. r u sayin dat we nly liek artiklz that poze us az heroze/

Same ole, same ole. But, yeah, I liked it.
OMG, check out post #47:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8181241&postcount=47

Frak
October 28th, 2009, 11:19 PM
OMG, check out post #47:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8181241&postcount=47
You posted the exact same moment I edited it. I happened to "not complete my thought".

I like it, personally. Though, I find it true that people will call heresy to any article that doesn't pose Ubuntu in at least a nuetral light.

aysiu
October 28th, 2009, 11:50 PM
You posted the exact same moment I edited it. I happened to "not complete my thought".

I like it, personally. Though, I find it true that people will call heresy to any article that doesn't pose Ubuntu in at least a nuetral light.
Well, there are a variety of reactions, of course. I don't speak for the community as a whole, and I don't think anyone does.

Some seem to stand behind any ridiculous criticism of Ubuntu, no matter how unfounded, under the guise of defending the general public from Linux fanatics. Some actively promote FUD against Linux to make Windows look better than it really is. Some honestly really don't care about any of those and refrain from posting in such threads. Some think Linux gets treated unfairly in the press and so overcompensate by saying only positive things about Linux. Some have backlash against anything negative said against Linux, regardless of whether the criticism is warranted or not. Some actually try to be as unbiased as possible and recognize even-handed articles when they see such articles, and call out articles that are biased, both in favor of Windows and in favor of Linux I like to think I'm #6, but I'm probably mostly #6 with a smattering of #4.

KiwiNZ
October 28th, 2009, 11:55 PM
Well, there are a variety of reactions, of course. I don't speak for the community as a whole, and I don't think anyone does.


Some seem to stand behind any ridiculous criticism of Ubuntu, no matter how unfounded, under the guise of defending the general public from Linux fanatics.
Some actively promote FUD against Linux to make Windows look better than it really is.
Some honestly really don't care about any of those and refrain from posting in such threads.
Some think Linux gets treated unfairly in the press and so overcompensate by saying only positive things about Linux.
Some have backlash against anything negative said against Linux, regardless of whether the criticism is warranted or not.
Some actually try to be as unbiased as possible and recognize even-handed articles when they see such articles, and call out articles that are biased, both in favor of Windows and in favor of Linux

I like to think I'm #6, but I'm probably mostly #6 with a smattering of #4.

The zealots in every camp are self defeating. I have always said and will always say it is horses for courses. What ever OS suits the user best is the best OS for that user.

aysiu
October 28th, 2009, 11:59 PM
The zealots in every camp are self defeating. I have always said and will always say it is horses for courses. What ever OS suits the user best is the best OS for that user.
I don't berate people for choosing Windows or OS X.

I will call out people who make it sound as if any choice is a bad choice, though. Unfortunately, in the mainstream press, that most often happens in the form of misrepresenting Linux in a bad light, so I do my best to correct that.

I am just as upset when people call Windows users "sheep" or say Mac OS X is just for people who want to be "cool."

KiwiNZ
October 29th, 2009, 12:03 AM
I don't berate people for choosing Windows or OS X.

I will call out people who make it sound as if any choice is a bad choice, though. Unfortunately, in the mainstream press, that most often happens in the form of misrepresenting Linux in a bad light, so I do my best to correct that.

I am just as upset when people call Windows users "sheep" or say Mac OS X is just for people who want to be "cool."

The press are plonkers . They review OS's in a way that each and every users needs are the same. That of course is bilge water. That is the fundamental mistake they make . But of course it makes good reading and cover sales thus sells advertising and that is their aim.

Frak
October 29th, 2009, 12:08 AM
Well, there are a variety of reactions, of course. I don't speak for the community as a whole, and I don't think anyone does.

Some seem to stand behind any ridiculous criticism of Ubuntu, no matter how unfounded, under the guise of defending the general public from Linux fanatics. Some actively promote FUD against Linux to make Windows look better than it really is. Some honestly really don't care about any of those and refrain from posting in such threads. Some think Linux gets treated unfairly in the press and so overcompensate by saying only positive things about Linux. Some have backlash against anything negative said against Linux, regardless of whether the criticism is warranted or not. Some actually try to be as unbiased as possible and recognize even-handed articles when they see such articles, and call out articles that are biased, both in favor of Windows and in favor of Linux I like to think I'm #6, but I'm probably mostly #6 with a smattering of #4.


The zealots in every camp are self defeating. I have always said and will always say it is horses for courses. What ever OS suits the user best is the best OS for that user.


I don't berate people for choosing Windows or OS X.

I will call out people who make it sound as if any choice is a bad choice, though. Unfortunately, in the mainstream press, that most often happens in the form of misrepresenting Linux in a bad light, so I do my best to correct that.

I am just as upset when people call Windows users "sheep" or say Mac OS X is just for people who want to be "cool."


The press are plonkers . They review OS's in a way that each and every users needs are the same. That of course is bilge water. That is the fundamental mistake they make . But of course it makes good reading and cover sales thus sells advertising and that is their aim.

^^Most sane conversation in Months, or even a couple years. *applauds*

Decline-
October 29th, 2009, 12:43 AM
Edit: Seems I posted this before reading all the pages, so I hope I didn't miss anything important...


Why would you want this? It is on your desktop already right?
You make it sound like there is something wrong with the current position Linux has.

This sounds like some kind of relativist individualism which fails to acknowledge the reality of the advantages that comes with having market shares. I mean, what are most complaints about Ubuntu and GNU/Linux nowadays? Yes, exactly, it's not complaints about the system itself, it's complaints about software companies not developing apps for GNU/Linux (at least not the same level of commitment). Increased "market shares" would mean software developers and others like hardware vendors/driver developers - would begin to take us more seriously.

Who wouldn't want to see more progress towards better flash support? Support for Adobe apps in general (Photoshop!)? PC Games? Hardware drivers for ATI etc.?

So no, it is not enough just to limit your view to your own desktop. Freedom to share, freedom to create, freedom to use - needs to be spread, it is the only right thing, it is of absolute neccessity.