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keepitsimpleengr
October 23rd, 2009, 08:49 PM
In his blog, about his off-hand Ubuntu remark while commenting on Windows 7 in a broadcast interview, Rory Cellan-Jones (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2007/12/about_rory_cellanjones_1.html) then goes on, fully coloring his opinion.

24 hours with Ubuntu (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/10/24_hours_with_ubuntu.html?ssorl=1256316835&ssols=13&ssoc=register) from BBC NEWS dot.life technology blog

I tend to the long view, but I found all this to be excellent manure precursor.

There were lots of comments, as expected. I felt the need to add my own. keepitsimpleengineer―If you care to read it (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/profile/?userid=14184450)

SuperSonic4
October 23rd, 2009, 08:54 PM
It just has to be seen for what it is - a blog

SomeGuyDude
October 23rd, 2009, 09:07 PM
General gist of any article of this sort: person tries Ubuntu, gets frustrated because it can't exactly replicate what they're used to, b!tches and calls it bad.

Ric_NYC
October 23rd, 2009, 09:22 PM
"Tech Guru"...


I read that blog this morning.

Old Marcus
October 23rd, 2009, 09:31 PM
As the Beeb's 'tech guru', he has a lot to do, so probably couldn't devote more than a day to Ubuntu, which isn't that fair. The comments were what made me think though.

The second comment down states that the Linux Community are a bunch of anti-microsoft fanatics. This ia generalisation, but unfortunately for the most part true. I find it everywhere, people raving about how **** Windows is and how Bill Gates is a bumboy etc. And yet there are a few sane souls out there who choose Linux because it works better for them, not because they just joined the IT version of Al-Qaeda.

Sealbhach
October 23rd, 2009, 09:36 PM
I find this bit astonishing:

But, even after some help from a Canonical advisor who came and installed a few add-ons such as Flash, I struggled to work out how I would organise photos, music and video with this system.

Seriously. :confused:

.

NormanFLinux
October 23rd, 2009, 09:37 PM
I think he didn't like GNOME. KDE will be more familiar to users coming over from Windows. And he didn't really give it a fair trial.

kvarley
October 23rd, 2009, 09:37 PM
After reading that it made my blood boil!

Is he indeed being racist when he says "offensively brown background", whats offensive about a brown background?! Especially when "Ubuntu" is an African word.

He says that things are easier on a Mac, but how long had he used a mac for?!

This is one thing which really annoys me, when people care to write articles after spending a minimal amount of time trying to learn an operating system! Go spend as long as you did learning to use Windows or a Mac, then get back to us!

Linux can just simply work, I think that the "Ubuntu Software Centre" shows this, after more apps in there get screenshots I think that Ubuntu will stand up on top of Windows 7 and OS X after all, it's free!

You aren't locked into a stupid company who wants to rule the world either. ;)

Simply enraged that they have the cheek to review it like that.

Old Marcus
October 23rd, 2009, 09:38 PM
Because the apps don't have Windows or MSN in the name, obviously. He didn't give the system enough time, and entered it thinking it would be rubbish, and didn't bother to try. Some tech guru.

NormanFLinux
October 23rd, 2009, 09:39 PM
Even installing Windows programs in Ubuntu is simple. People confuse Linux with Windows. Despite superficial similarities they are entirely different operating systems. I'd expect a computer tech to know the difference!

NormanFLinux
October 23rd, 2009, 09:41 PM
I'm not a computer tech and I can find my way around Linux. Why can't this guy?

NoaHall
October 23rd, 2009, 09:41 PM
Because he's a very biased person.

kvarley
October 23rd, 2009, 09:46 PM
So many good points here! I am glad that you are all taking the time to slate this "tech guru" who clearly isnt giving the OS a fair trial.

Sealbhach
October 23rd, 2009, 09:49 PM
Because he's a very biased person.

The BBC has got some very close links with Microsoft, many senior staff previously worked at Microsoft: http://paidcontent.co.uk/article/419-industry-moves-microsoft-online-chief-baylay-joins-bbc-after-highfields/

and there's also this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2006/09_september/28/microsoft.shtml

(maybe I've been spending too long on BoycottNovell) :)

.

NoaHall
October 23rd, 2009, 09:53 PM
The BBC has got some very close links with Microsoft, many senior staff previously worked at Microsoft: http://paidcontent.co.uk/article/419-industry-moves-microsoft-online-chief-baylay-joins-bbc-after-highfields/

and there's also this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2006/09_september/28/microsoft.shtml

(maybe I've been spending too long on BoycottNovell) :)

.
I know this already. Why say it to me ?

peakshysteria
October 23rd, 2009, 09:53 PM
Who cares? As far as I can see there is and shouldn't be a war (the flame-wars are on occasions quite amusing though). People stay with the OS who works best for their needs. Myself, Windows didn't' work out at all in the end. Ubuntu did. Love it. Live it. End of story. Happy days so far:)

Sealbhach
October 23rd, 2009, 09:55 PM
I know this already. Why say it to me ?

Oh, just putting it out there, didn't intend to be instructing you or anything, I just thought I'd build on your mention of the word "biased".

.

NoaHall
October 23rd, 2009, 09:57 PM
Oh, just putting it out there, didn't intend to be instructing you or anything, I just thought I'd build on your mention of the word "biased".

.

Fair enough :)

He's also using Karmic. Karmic hasn't been released yet(properly).

t0p
October 23rd, 2009, 09:58 PM
I really think that people like this BBC "tech guru", whose comments can influence the choices of many people, really do have a responsibility to fairly and accurately evaluate stuff. You can't properly gauge an OS in one day - he should use Ubuntu for a longer period, like a couple of weeks or a month, then he'll see what Ubuntu is really like.

Unfortunately that isn't going to happen. He messes with Ubuntu for a few hours, then comes out with an article that will put people off trying it. Anti-Linux characters will have their negative opinions reinforced. More half-truths and misconceptions will do the rounds.

Sealbhach
October 23rd, 2009, 10:03 PM
It just has to be seen for what it is - a blog

This guy has access to national TV, paid for by licence payers like me.

.

mick222
October 23rd, 2009, 10:04 PM
The second comment down states that the Linux Community are a bunch of anti-microsoft fanatics. This ia generalisation, but unfortunately for the most part true. I find it everywhere, people raving about how **** Windows is and how Bill Gates is a bumboy etc. And yet there are a few sane souls out there who choose Linux because it works better for them, not because they just joined the IT version of Al-Qaeda.

Sorry not a fascist anti windows user but I watched the program and found his comments a bit insulting, for 15hrs after the broadcast they spelt Ubuntu Ubunto After all Linux and open source might not be able to compete totally in the market as windows comes pre installed. I actually admire some of the things Bill Gates and Microsoft have done with charity etc.,the way they seem to bring up their family and treat their employees.
-But microsoft are a ruthless giant intent on total control. The way they dealt with lotus and Netscape was unforgivable they refused discounts to vendors who pre installed non Microsoft software on their computers.Constantly governments have had to take them to court costing tax payers millions to comply with local rules.
This guy has no idea how hard people work to make linux work and obviously thought Ubuntu is Linux he will be first in line to congratulate google when they release their os he has been blinded by the hype about ms.As for the small band of devs what abou t Novell Sun IBM Red Hat etc I know they mostly work on corporate stuff but much of it filters down.
I started using Linux first Fedora then suse , ubuntu Mandriva Mint, because I had built my own computer and discovered a copy of windows would cost me almost as much as the computer and put me way over the cost of buying from a vendor.
Bye the way My son and daughter both have windows computers but Ubuntu works fo me.
Rant over

shadylookin
October 23rd, 2009, 10:05 PM
How long did it take him to really learn to use windows? I'm guessing it was more than 24 hours.

Personal operating system preferences aside what kind of "tech guru" won't dedicate more than a day to learning a completely different technology?

mick222
October 23rd, 2009, 10:10 PM
I think the day was after he said a handful of fanatics ran "Ubunto" which is the BBC's spelling on their website.

SuperSonic4
October 23rd, 2009, 10:14 PM
This guy has access to national TV, paid for by licence payers like me.

.

And this makes it not a blog how?

Paqman
October 23rd, 2009, 10:20 PM
I thought it was a reasonable article. I'm sure half the users on this thread scoffing at him for not getting everything right on day one of using Ubuntu had similar stumbles when they switched.

No-one is born knowing how to use Ubuntu. I'm sure if he continues to play about with it he'll get the hang of it, just like we all did.

Good on Canonical for grabbing the opportunity he created by mentioning it on air though. Pity their guy that set up Flash for him didn't take two minutes to explain how to install software...

mivo
October 23rd, 2009, 10:29 PM
It is the same reaction I get from most people who I hand a live CD. The brown theme usually turns them off right there. We have talked about this for years, but Cannonical refuses to even add a few more theme choices during install.

Many here said he should have tried longer than a few hours. For an article, yes, I agree, but a few hours is more than most average people who are mildly curious will give Ubuntu. I spent hours and hours until I had it working smoothly on my desktop, and it took hours and hours until wireless and the touchpad worked properly on my laptop. It is fine for a geek, I enjoy toying around when I have time, but for the target audience of his blog and show this is not acceptable.

I use Linux myself, but I won't kid myself and believe that it is ready for the broad mass of desktop users. SuSE more so than Ubuntu. Out of the box, Ubuntu looks like something from 10+ years ago.

sledge73
October 23rd, 2009, 10:38 PM
I do have to say that even though I don't like what this tech-guru has to say atleast Ubuntu made the news. Here in the U.S. the media are scared to death to say anything that might pull people away form the all mighty micro$oft, even though our new President uses Ubuntu on his pc.

Maheriano
October 23rd, 2009, 10:44 PM
This guy's a tech guru? He's an idiot.

The left hand side of the screen has a strip fulfilling the same purpose as the taskbar in Windows or the dock in Mac OS X, with quick access to key applications. You are provided with a range of open source software, from Firefox to Open Office, and can go online to the Ubuntu Software Centre to seek out other applications.
He's describing some plugin, this is not related to Ubuntu. It has nothing to do with how Ubuntu functions, nor how it differs from Windows, plugins can be downloaded and installed into any operating system to customize your experience.


Getting connected to my home network proved reasonably simple - though I struggled to see other machines and devices on my network.Well to be honest, finding other machines on my network is not always reliable neither.


But when I tried to install a free open-source audio editing program, Audacity, it appeared more complex to get hold of an Ubuntu version than the one I've used on a Mac.

sudo apt-get install audacious
Oh, the difficulty......that was nearly exhausting......I think I almost had to hit Y during the install.


I also gave up on attempting to use the music streaming service Spotify, after a warning that, as there was no Linux version, I would first need to get hold of something called Wine which allows you to run Windows apps. Too much bother...
What is it with these idiots and the Linux versions of things? Why do they always have to use another version of something? Why can't they just use an entirely new service which provides the same enjoyment? Try Pandora man, try Gnome Radio, try something else.


Faced with such consumer inertia it's hard to see Linux making much progress in boosting its miniscule market share.
What market share? Linux doesn't have any, the market is measured in sales, not usage and you can't measure sales of something that's free. What market share does tap water have in the beverage industry? Zero because nobody sells tap water.


But remember, the future of computing is mobile - and in that new market for operating systems everything is still to play for.
No it's not, you moron. Linux has been used as a mobile computer platform, especially in cell phones, for a long, long time. It's also used about 10 times the amount Windows Mobile is so I don't really think it's still to play for.


Risking another pasting from its supporters, I'll predict that Ubuntu will remain a very niche product - but it's Google's Android which could bring open-source to the mass consumer market.
This whole article he's referred to Ubuntu as if it were Linux, he even mentioned Linux in its place once. I've ignored it until now, now I feel I have to comment on it. If you're going to refer to Ubuntu as Linux and then mention a Linux based product on top of it, you're embarrassing yourself.

Go home, do some research. You're not a tech guru, you're a guy that plays with toys off the shelf. A tech guru plays with toys before they hit the shelf.

Paqman
October 23rd, 2009, 11:04 PM
He's describing some plugin, this is not related to Ubuntu. It has nothing to do with how Ubuntu functions, nor how it differs from Windows, plugins can be downloaded and installed into any operating system to customize your experience.


No he's not. He's describing UNR running on a Dell netbook.

mdsmedia
October 23rd, 2009, 11:19 PM
No he's not. He's describing UNR running on a Dell netbook.

I think that's a point missed by a lot of posters here, and in comments to his blog.

But, he is using the term Ubuntu as if he's using the desktop version, rather than UNR, and comparing it with the desktop version of Win 7.

He's all over the place and doesn't even realise it.

murderslastcrow
October 23rd, 2009, 11:55 PM
Lmao, WINE is 'too much bother'? Jeez. It's in Add/Remove and the Beta is in Ubuntu Software Center in Karmic. Someone has ridiculous expectations. I'd hate to see how many Apple users threaten to kill him if he gave a similar review of OS X.

I would expect BBC to have a bit more class rather than taking the "ignorant majority" approach. It's just a blog, though, as has been stated, and this guy is clearly very biased and uncommitted to making any meaningful comments about Linux as a whole based on his experience.

I think, if you want to hear a good noobz commentary, you should look at someone who actually tried to use Linux, rather than trying to use Windows while using Linux somehow.

There are plenty of extremely satisfied customers everywhere, and especially in my community there are tons of Linux users who aren't technical by any means, but love it and how well it works into their social digital lifestyle.

JoshuaRL
October 23rd, 2009, 11:58 PM
I think that's a point missed by a lot of posters here, and in comments to his blog.

But, he is using the term Ubuntu as if he's using the desktop version, rather than UNR, and comparing it with the desktop version of Win 7.

He's all over the place and doesn't even realise it.

Exactly. I understand Canonical's feeling that UNR is the most startlingly different version of Ubuntu, so as to give a more interesting review.

But this review was set up to fail. The very basics have to be:

1). How to install software
2). Commonly used software
3). Normal user activities

He obviously didn't take any time to learn about the first one, either through the repos or even in Wine. For the second, he did no research either, as he was trying to shoehorn Spotify in. Would it be fair to review Snow Leopard by trying to install Banshee and then criticizing the OS when that doesn't happen? No, that's ridiculous. For number three he gave a passing glance to it, even having Canonical come TO HIS HOUSE to install Flash and other goodies for him. Honestly, I give full marks to Canonical for sending him the test unit and trying to make this as painless as possible.

But he didn't want this to succeed. Not to mention, 24 hours? Man, he got a pre-installed Dell Mini. That means no installing, no configuring, nothing. I would be surprised if he spent more than 5 hours total on that machine.

One other thing, not once in his review of this netbook did he say it ran slow or had trouble getting tasks done. Even in spite of a worthless reviewer, score one for Ubuntu.

mick222
October 24th, 2009, 12:14 AM
To be honest i have not heard of spotify before this article it is available apparently for Linux but only as a £9.99 subscription why not try some other music software like Amazon where it's easy t get music.pandora was good but is no longer available in the uk.
I love Ubuntu bu hate when people refer to it as though i's the only version of Linux.

SomeGuyDude
October 24th, 2009, 12:15 AM
It's just a PITA that we can't get an unbiased review. They all boil down to the same thing: it ain't windows. They want to run every application in Windows and install it LIKE Windows.

I mean, good lord, Audacity's in the repos. Even if he didn't know the whole apt-get thing he could just open up Synaptic and search for it, then hit install. Chances are he did the Windows thing and went straight to Audacity's website instead, and got mad because trying to find it on THERE sends you to Ubuntu's repo directory and he got all frustrated.

Ric_NYC
October 24th, 2009, 12:18 AM
It is the same reaction I get from most people who I hand a live CD. The brown theme usually turns them off right there. We have talked about this for years, but Cannonical refuses to even add a few more theme choices during install.



It's like talking to a wall.

HappinessNow
October 24th, 2009, 09:02 PM
24 hours with Ubuntu

| 13:15 UK time, Friday, 23 October 2009...So would I actively seek to install Ubuntu or any other Linux variant on a machine I already owned? To be frank, no, because it would not make my computing life any simpler and more pleasurable than it is now....


http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/10/24_hours_with_ubuntu.html

What is your response to Mr. Cellan-Jones review of Ubuntu?

At least he took the time to learn how to spell Ubuntu correctly.

speedwell68
October 24th, 2009, 09:17 PM
http://images.google.co.uk/url?source=imgres&ct=tbn&q=http://members.optusnet.com.au/josette/post/holy_repost.jpg&usg=AFQjCNFXrC7JnXURG-hgfhn34eI57HIRJw

Regenweald
October 24th, 2009, 09:54 PM
Suppose i could go into a pro linux tirade......but i don't care enough. It works for me. I'm good.

Swagman
October 24th, 2009, 09:54 PM
Ibl

aysiu
October 24th, 2009, 09:55 PM
This (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/my-response-to-rory-cellan-jones/) is my response.

mikewhatever
October 24th, 2009, 10:01 PM
[B]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/10/24_hours_with_ubuntu.html

What is your response to Mr. Cellan-Jones review of Ubuntu?

At least he took the time to learn how to spell Ubuntu correctly.

Oh common! It's already been posted like 20 times.

HappinessNow
October 24th, 2009, 10:24 PM
Oh common! It's already been posted like 20 times.
where?

this is about a post in his blog posted yesterday NOT the breakfast report on Wednesday.

This review was posted on his blog after Canonical sent him a laptop with Ubuntu on it.

HappinessNow
October 24th, 2009, 10:26 PM
This (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/my-response-to-rory-cellan-jones/) is my response.
Thanks for posting a link to your response.

BuffaloX
October 24th, 2009, 10:37 PM
This (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/my-response-to-rory-cellan-jones/) is my response.

Haha funny.

I've always been enormously impressed with you super-human patience, but it seems this article was the infamous final drop.

But judging from his "review", that guy shouldn't be allowed to report on anything remotely technical.

speedwell68
October 24th, 2009, 11:51 PM
where?

this is about a post in his blog posted yesterday NOT the breakfast report on Wednesday.

This review was posted on his blog after Canonical sent him a laptop with Ubuntu on it.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1299156&highlight=bbc

Groucho Marxist
October 24th, 2009, 11:57 PM
This (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/my-response-to-rory-cellan-jones/) is my response.

{From blog}


I very much look forward to reading your next article, “24 hours learning to ride a bicycle.” The wheels must just not be worth the effort.

:D =D> You've just earned +1,000 Internets; thanks for that humorous response to BBCs' review.

HappinessNow
October 26th, 2009, 09:41 AM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1299156&highlight=bbc
ahh...Thanks for the link/ :P

amitabhishek
October 26th, 2009, 11:11 AM
I dont give a rat's a-- to BBC. I am not a geek and I stopped dual booting a year's back...I'd rather spend $220 on a piece of hardware thn on lucky number seven.

3rdalbum
October 26th, 2009, 11:12 AM
Wow, that guy spent a whole 24 hours with Ubuntu!

...Seriously, I've been using Windows for more than 24 hours and I'm utterly useless at it. I keep looking for a Bash prompt. If he wants to be fair, he should try using Ubuntu for months and see if he would go back to Windows.

perce
October 26th, 2009, 11:59 AM
Personally I don't get how people could hail Apple Store as the best thing after sliced bread, and find add/remove too hard to use. Power of advertisement maybe?

ukripper
October 26th, 2009, 03:57 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/10/24_hours_with_ubuntu.html



Moderators: Please merge this thread with other if there is any already posted. thanks

Jimleko211
October 26th, 2009, 04:42 PM
Of course, he's reviewing the Netbook Remix...people who convert through that article will be wondering wtf is up.

ukripper
October 26th, 2009, 05:23 PM
Of course, he's reviewing the Netbook Remix...people who convert through that article will be wondering wtf is up.

In 24 hours he thinks he has come clean with conclusion that Ubuntu is no go for normal/non-techie users. What a shame for a BBC's tech correspondant, very much biased!

He gave a week to familiar windows environment(Windows 7) but for Ubuntu he can't spare a week..

Jimleko211
October 26th, 2009, 06:23 PM
And I dun get what he means by he can't see how he'll manage photos music and videos...

ukripper
October 26th, 2009, 06:37 PM
And I dun get what he means by he can't see how he'll manage photos music and videos...

I think BBC needs to hire people who actually know what they are doing. I feel like my TV licence fee which I pay every year has been misused on these incapable lot.

Bölvaður
October 26th, 2009, 06:39 PM
In 24 hours he thinks he has come clean with conclusion that Ubuntu is no go for normal/non-techie users. What a shame for a BBC's tech correspondant, very much biased!

He gave a week to familiar windows environment(Windows 7) but for Ubuntu he can't spare a week..


Now we are going to have a fuller exploration of the system on this site next week, but...

Looks like he is going to give it a week but did a quick review after a day in an attempt to either stop the flaming or to keep the attention on him, so we havent forgotten about it when the proper review is out.



It is obvious he has no idea what he is doing if he cannot install flash (in kermic you can click the "get flash" link and you will be asked if you want gnash, adobe flash or that third one I never seem to be able to remember what is called).

Ofcourse he needs a month or so to realize he is wanting to accomplish tasks, but not doing things with particular programs. He also might find out that he should google how others are accomplishing those tasks or just by using his own cognitive abilities which his writing skills seems to indicate he isn't lacking (Im saying he's smart)

Swagman
October 26th, 2009, 06:42 PM
Rory has already replied to his blog




171. At 2:07pm on 26 Oct 2009, Rory Cellan-Jones (BBC) wrote:

This post has generated a huge volume of responses, so thought I'd clarify a couple of points.

First, the Audacity business - yes I should have gone straight to the software centre to install it, and when I did it was easy. It was just hunting the right version down on the web which proved tricky, so thanks for your advice.

Secondly, Canonical didn't send someone over because I was having trouble - the firm rang me and asked if they could come and install a few add-ons because they wanted to be sure that I'd get a good experience.

Thirdly, this was never going to be a full review, partly because the website already had Ubuntu coverage planned for this week, but also because I was going away on holiday on Friday night and wanted to get something posted before then.

What I find really puzzling is the idea that "RCJ likes to bait Linux users". The opposite is true - my aim last week was to make sure that amidst our Windows 7 coverage, we also took care to mention alternatives. This particular post was an honest attempt to recreate what would be the experience for average computer users, who are very much less expert than many who've responded here, when trying the Ubuntu environment for the first time.

Finally, is the kind of hostility shown in some of these comments really going to win over millions of the undecided to the Linux camp?



There are some people going out of their way to belittle the guy. This is not a very smart move as this guy has the power to forward our cause by a tremendous amount.

By all means correct the guy but don't slag him off.

ukripper
October 26th, 2009, 06:51 PM
Rory has already replied to his blog





There are some people going out of their way to belittle the guy. This is not a very smart move as this guy has the power to forward our cause by a tremendous amount.

By all means correct the guy but don't slag him off.

Yeh just read it in the blog itself now. Looks like we got to give this guy another chance...But reading that blog only shows ignorance of this guy when it comes down to any other OS which he is not familiar with to be appalling.

amitabhishek
October 26th, 2009, 06:58 PM
personally i don't get how people could hail apple store as the best thing after sliced bread, and find add/remove too hard to use. Power of advertisement maybe?

lol

aysiu
October 26th, 2009, 07:00 PM
Personally I don't get how people could hail Apple Store as the best thing after sliced bread, and find add/remove too hard to use. Power of advertisement maybe?
Power of marketing.

The iTunes App Store is marketing genius. You take a limited amount of software that gets channeled through a slow authorization process and make that a selling point.

Synaptic/Add-Remove/Software Center is a marketing failure. You take a limited amount of software that gets channeled through a slow authorization process and make that a deficiency.

forrestcupp
October 26th, 2009, 07:26 PM
This (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/my-response-to-rory-cellan-jones/) is my response.

What you said in your post is pretty much exactly what I was thinking when I read that. I wish the guy would read your blog.

Jimleko211
October 26th, 2009, 07:28 PM
Well he is in the mainstream, and even people in the USA respect the BBC. If he likes Ubuntu, then we should see a huge upscale in usage. Let's hope that he likes it.

marchwarden
October 26th, 2009, 07:47 PM
There are some people going out of their way to belittle the guy. This is not a very smart move as this guy has the power to forward our cause by a tremendous amount.

By all means correct the guy but don't slag him off.

I don't believe he has much power at all to be honest, marketing is key and Microsoft has pretty much got that all sewn up.

sliketymo
October 26th, 2009, 08:33 PM
Looks like he is going to give it a week but did a quick review after a day in an attempt to either stop the flaming or to keep the attention on him, so we havent forgotten about it when the proper review is out.



It is obvious he has no idea what he is doing if he cannot install flash (in kermic you can click the "get flash" link and you will be asked if you want gnash, adobe flash or that third one I never seem to be able to remember what is called).

Ofcourse he needs a month or so to realize he is wanting to accomplish tasks, but not doing things with particular programs. He also might find out that he should google how others are accomplishing those tasks or just by using his own cognitive abilities which his writing skills seems to indicate he isn't lacking (Im saying he's smart)
swfdec,or something to that effect.

Ric_NYC
October 26th, 2009, 08:33 PM
This is the kind of "Tech Guru" that has no curiosity to try new things, explore other possibilities...
No, thanks. Go back to your "Windows Only World".

Dark_Stang
October 26th, 2009, 08:39 PM
That's unfortunate. A person in his position has the power to spread knowledge but he doesn't seem to desire to aquire any new knowledge for himself. Oh well, keep sucking off that Microsoft tit there Mr. BBC tech guy. Maybe next week you can review how Apple is just built by hardcore hardware hackers out of a garage.

aysiu
October 26th, 2009, 08:56 PM
This seems like an American having grown up in only one part of the US and never having traveled outside the country writing a review of Hong Kong after spending 24 hours there.

There is such a thing as culture shock. I don't take travel advice from someone who has spent only 24 hours outside the country. I really hope Windows users don't take operating system advice from someone who has spent only 24 hours with Ubuntu.

For more details, read The Chinese Language is not "Ready for the Desktop." (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=120489)

Kyugetsuki
October 26th, 2009, 09:06 PM
Okay 1st thngs 1st-I adore the BBC a lot more than CNN
(they opened my eyes to top gear), but alas it remains to be seen that the correspondent only touched the extreme tip of the ubuntu iceberg...

I also read bout win7 being mentioned. I mean, honestly 7 looks nice, but that's just about it-looks. but if you tinker under the hood, you see "dwm.exe" eating away your most precious of resources(sure it handled better than Vista, but 80% of the tech world knows how much vista sucks,and I'm proudly part of it). google android is u.d., do'nt expect much yet, sir..,,

as for the pictures and stuff there's a lot one can scrample on gnome-app-install,which btw he failed to mention.

he used netbook remix,which i think is still u.f.d.

in the end I think the best point he had was that open source is a niche.

the fix it man
October 26th, 2009, 09:17 PM
Give it 2 weeks and he will be hooked, be a fully certified member of ubuntuforums and be coding in c++. :D

keepitsimpleengr
October 27th, 2009, 07:43 AM
This is a follow-up to the thread "BBC Tech guru chucks a few at Ubuntu…" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1300055)

Rory Cellan-Jones (BBC) has responded in the comments to his blog "24 hours with Ubuntu" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/10/24_hours_with_ubuntu.html?ssorl=1256316835&ssols=13&ssoc=register), subject of the above thread. It's #171, but you can read it here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/profile/?userid=11776790).

In my view, his additional comment clearly demonstrates the hazards of walking down a cow path with one's eyes closed.

So, Mr Cellan-Jones, since you are a BBC technology correspondent, and the BBC's misson (http://www.bbc.co.uk/info/purpose/index.shtml) is to "To enrich people's lives with programmes and services that inform, educate and entertain." including the value "Trust is the foundation of the BBC: we are independent, impartial and honest.", I propose...

You interview and report on people who actively use both the Ubuntu desktop and the Windows OS. and seek to reveal the real differences, weakness and strengths of both. Please include the venerable Apple too. There are other ways to be independent, impartial and honest, feel free to improvise.

Consider it thinking outside of the box.

samjh
October 27th, 2009, 07:57 AM
I really don't understand the backlash.

To me, blog posts like Mr Cellan-Jones' one, is a litmus test as to whether Ubuntu is "ready for the desktop". Clearly, his experience was less than great, particularly considering that someone from Canonical took extra care to make sure he got "a good experience".

IMHO, Canonical and other Linux distro producers should carefully study this feedback and seek to improve usability of their distributions.

Closing our eyes does not make the bogie-man (ie. Microsoft Windows) go away.

Dark_Stang
October 27th, 2009, 08:05 AM
I'm sick and tired of hearing this "ready for the desktop" ****. "Ready for the desktop" seems to mean being exactly like Windows. Let's look at the facts...

Most secure: The Various Linux Distros
Most advanced: Linux (specifically debian)
Most hardware supported: Linux
Most stable: Linux
Fastest Patched: Linux

There are a lot of people that try out a Mac and hate them too. The bottom line is people need to use what they are comfortable with. Just because they don't know how to use something doesn't mean it's bad. Also, I don't see how you could possibly compare a full featured Windows 7 operating system to a stripped down netbook version of an operating system.

BslBryan
October 27th, 2009, 08:17 AM
While I've obviously had more (and a better) experience than he has, I'm bound to disagree with him, and as I can see, so do many others. But the first several days with Hardy on my laptop forced me to make certain that I had no bad taste in my mouth when thinking of Ubuntu. We've certainly progressed, but still... I had a really difficult time.

I think everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and I think it's a little rude to post threads to emphasize how wrong someone's opinion seems to you. You must take it for what it is: strictly an opinion. It seems very little different to me than posting a thread complaining about another forum goer's opinion.

I'd be interested in hearing what Rory Cellan thinks about this thread, actually, and whether or not this thread would change his opinion on Ubuntu. I don't really think so.

Again, I agree, but I really don't see the point of bashing him beyond the fact that he is a writer for a big name.

phrostbyte
October 27th, 2009, 08:18 AM
I'm sick and tired of hearing this "ready for the desktop" ****. "Ready for the desktop" seems to mean being exactly like Windows. Let's look at the facts...

Most secure: The Various Linux Distros
Most advanced: Linux (specifically debian)
Most hardware supported: Linux
Most stable: Linux
Fastest Patched: Linux

There are a lot of people that try out a Mac and hate them too. The bottom line is people need to use what they are comfortable with. Just because they don't know how to use something doesn't mean it's bad. Also, I don't see how you could possibly compare a full featured Windows 7 operating system to a stripped down netbook version of an operating system.

Yeah I got the jist that he said in too many words: "it's not Windows, I am not bothering with it".

For instance: Audacity is actually incredibly simple to install in Ubuntu, if you bother to learn how to install programs.

This is not a uncommon compliant. So I think Canonical is at fault here. Not that installing software is difficult, but discovering HOW to install software is (somehow?) difficult. Which is weird, but the way to install software in Ubuntu is so against the common Windows intuition I think in needs some kind of special treatment.

MelDJ
October 27th, 2009, 08:23 AM
Again, I agree, but I really don't see the point of bashing him beyond the fact that he is a writer for a big name.

+1. we should be showing a good example by politely showing the correct way of using ubuntu than bashing someone up

YeOK
October 27th, 2009, 08:30 AM
This is a follow-up to the thread "BBC Tech guru chucks a few at Ubuntu…" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1300055)

Rory Cellan-Jones (BBC) has responded in the comments to his blog "24 hours with Ubuntu" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/10/24_hours_with_ubuntu.html?ssorl=1256316835&ssols=13&ssoc=register), subject of the above thread. It's #171, but you can read it here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/profile/?userid=11776790).

In my view, his additional comment clearly demonstrates the hazards of walking down a cow path with one's eyes closed.

So, Mr Cellan-Jones, since you are a BBC technology correspondent, and the BBC's misson (http://www.bbc.co.uk/info/purpose/index.shtml) is to "To enrich people's lives with programmes and services that inform, educate and entertain." including the value "Trust is the foundation of the BBC: we are independent, impartial and honest.", I propose...

You interview and report on people who actively use both the Ubuntu desktop and the Windows OS. and seek to reveal the real differences, weakness and strengths of both. Please include the venerable Apple too. There are other ways to be independent, impartial and honest, feel free to improvise.

Consider it thinking outside of the box.

I think he was honest, he took the time to test Ubuntu and he wasn't impressed. Most computer users would have the exact same experience. You should also note, he posted on his BBC blog, not posted it as a BBC news feature, so your link to the BBC's mission statement is irrelevant.

He's entitled to his opinion like anybody else. If you disagree, stop reading blogs.

samjh
October 27th, 2009, 08:33 AM
For instance: Audacity is actually incredibly simple to install in Ubuntu, if you bother to learn how to install programs.

It's not "bothering to learn". It's about educating the user.

If you look at Windows, pre-installed Windows computers often feature an interactive tutorial about how to use Windows. Ubuntu could implement the same thing and avoid problems like not knowing how to install stuff. It's not a bad idea to adopt.

Cellan-Jones could have been more diligent, but I get the impression that he was playing dumb to gauge the effort factor of adapting to Ubuntu from Windows.

rorycellan
October 27th, 2009, 09:25 AM
Hi,
Thanks for all the feedback on my post on Ubuntu - and even on my response to the responses.I have just a couple of points - and a question for the members of this forum.

At the beginning of last week I was preparing for the job of covering the launch of Windows 7. Whatever you think of Windows - and I realise that even uttering the name here is like walking into a pub in Liverpool wearing a Man U shirt - it's surely difficult to argue that this was not a significant story, in business as well as technology terms. Vista had received such a poor reception, and the world - and cloud computing - had moved on so rapidly, that this was a critical moment for Microsoft. What is more, a large proportion of the BBC's audience uses Windows, and was bound to be interested - as the web stats showed afterwards.

But given that context, I decided that it was important that we mentioned other operating systems - both Mac and Linux. So in just about every broadcast on Wednesday - on TV and on the radio - I mentioned the availability of Ubuntu, etc. I've already explained that the phrase I used about Ubuntu in my second broadcast on BBC Breakfast was unfortunate - which is one reason why I responded to messages from the Ubuntu community to give Karmic Koala a try.

As I was going away on holiday on Friday night (I'm writing this from Vietnam)I had to complete the blog post in a hurry - otherwise the moment would have passed. But the whole point of the post was to try to replicate the experience of someone getting a first glimpse of an unfamiliar OS. And while most people have seized on the negative comments in the post, they've ignored this paragraph:

"Navigating around an unfamiliar system was fine once I'd worked out that the Ubuntu logo in the top left hand corner of the screen took me home, and for all my simple computing needs - from word processing to e-mail to web browsing - I found Ubuntu pretty satisfactory."

I go on to say that I struggled to work out how I would organise my multimedia activities - and that, I'm afraid, is a simple statement of fact. Out of the office, I use a Macbook with professional video editing software, I organise and edit my photos using iPhoto, and I store music in itunes. Now those tasks may all be simple enough in Ubuntu. But for me, like many coming to Ubuntu for the first time, there will be legacy issues, in that having learned complex programs and stored media in them, we will be reluctant to start all over again.

So to say - as someone has here - that my experience was "less than great" is not really fair to Ubuntu. What I found was that undertaking more complex tasks was a bit too much of a trial for an impatient user - and I should add that this might be the same for someone moving from Mac to Windows or vice-versa. That means Linux netbooks, rather than fully featured laptops or desktops, are more likely to be attractive to Windows and Mac users

And finally to my question. You will find on the BBC website today a story - plus video - about Ubuntu. Can anyone point me towards another mainstream news organisation that has given more coverage to Linux over the last week?

Rory Cellan-Jones

petrus4
October 27th, 2009, 09:32 AM
I really shouldn't post in this forum. I feel as though doing so is the moral equivalent of beating up five year olds with Down's Syndrome; it's just not fair. However, I'm going to, just this once.



Most secure: The Various Linux Distros

I don't suppose you've heard of OpenBSD, perchance?


Most advanced: Linux (specifically debian)

Care to define what the word, "advanced," means in this context?


Most hardware supported: Linux

This is possibly the one point in your entire post, which *may* be true. However, it depends on whether you're talking purely about the x86 port or not. If you aren't, then Linux loses that race to NetBSD.


Most stable: Linux

Given my own experience with Intrepid, if this were true, we'd be in an ocean of fecal matter the depth of the North Atlantic. ;)

I'm currently using FreeBSD. Saying that it is more stable than Ubuntu could be the greatest understatement to have been made in the last several thousand years.


Fastest Patched: Linux

I admit; no clue, here. Probably true; however, I'd also argue that the main reason why more fixes get issued in Ubuntu's case, is because a hell of a lot more *needs* fixing.

I'd actually initially gone on to write some truly savage bile in response to this post, but I remembered my initial resolve to be compassionate and engage in restraint.

My point, quite simply, is this. Do some more research, before you claim that Debian is the last word in computer operating systems, FOSS or otherwise.

BslBryan
October 27th, 2009, 09:34 AM
I'd be interested in hearing what Rory Cellan thinks about this thread...


Hi,
Thanks for all the feedback on my post on Ubuntu - and even on my response to the responses.

:shock:

Well, I got my answer pretty quickly.

JeevesBond
October 27th, 2009, 10:18 AM
I'm sick and tired of hearing this "ready for the desktop" ****. "Ready for the desktop" seems to mean being exactly like Windows.
It doesn't mean that at all, silly! :)

We could take it to mean Ubuntu is ready to supplant Windows (remember bug #1), but that's not the same as making it exactly the same. In fact, because of Windows' market share, Ubuntu needs to be markedly better: if reviewers aren't impressed, we're doing something wrong.


Let's look at the facts...

Most secure: The Various Linux Distros
Most advanced: Linux (specifically debian)
Most hardware supported: Linux
Most stable: Linux
Fastest Patched: Linux
This is hyperbole, moreover it doesn't address the concerns of the reviewer.


There are a lot of people that try out a Mac and hate them too.
Yes, however evidence suggests Mac has grown its desktop market share considerably, whereas Linux's desktop market share has actually shrunk in the last couple of months (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=11) (granted, I know Hitslink is far from the most reliable, but the fact that Mac is growing in popularity, while Linux is stagnating is undeniable).


The bottom line is people need to use what they are comfortable with. Just because they don't know how to use something doesn't mean it's bad.
But I thought we wanted people to use Ubuntu? If you're happy with Ubuntu's current market share, why the vitriol.


Also, I don't see how you could possibly compare a full featured Windows 7 operating system to a stripped down netbook version of an operating system.
He doesn't really compare the two, just notes a couple of similarities. Secondly, did anyone from Canonical tell him it was the Netbook Remix? Doesn't seem like it.


Audacity is actually incredibly simple to install in Ubuntu, if you bother to learn how to install programs.

This is not a uncommon compliant. So I think Canonical is at fault here. Not that installing software is difficult, but discovering HOW to install software is (somehow?) difficult. Which is weird, but the way to install software in Ubuntu is so against the common Windows intuition I think in needs some kind of special treatment.

The second paragraph is insightful; I don't mean to sound patronising, but this is exactly what usability is about.

So we have three issues raised by Mr Cellan-Jones: 1) the method for installing apps is non-obvious and new users assume it is the same as Windows (go on Internet, download .exe, install); 2) getting stuff like Flash, codecs and multimedia doesn't JustWork™; 3) multimedia software (video editing, photo organising, music players etc.) should be very usable, since they are a core part of the user experience.

If we put our energy into fixing these usability problems, rather than shooting the messenger, Ubuntu will be in a much better position to gain market share. Brainstorm anybody (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com)?


Can anyone point me towards another mainstream news organisation that has given more coverage to Linux over the last week?
Indeed. Thank you for the coverage, sorry you have been hounded by some in the community, unfortunately some people are far too zealous about defending their choice of OS.

Have a good holiday. :)

bodyharvester
October 27th, 2009, 10:28 AM
Hi,
Thanks for all the feedback on my post on Ubuntu - and even on my response to the responses.

I thought your article/blog was quite interesting.

Allow me to share with you all a memory...

I first got my Windows XP and a little offer popped up, an offer to tour my new installation, I took the offer and learned how to do nearly everything in Windows XP. That is all Ubuntu requires to solidify It's use for beginners and the less tech-savvy amongst us.

If I had gone back to Windows XP for 24 hours I would have shot myself, BSOD twice a day was a regular occurrence, re-installed twice in one week too. People moving to Ubuntu do need to remember It's not Windows, however, a small tour feature like what XP showed me would be useful in explaining this and other issues raised in the video.

And now my own question...

I would like to know what you think, Rory, If a "tour" would have helped you as a "new user" understand the subtle differences of the two operating systems?

I think we have a great chance here to learn.

ssam
October 27th, 2009, 10:42 AM
as people have already said, maybe some sort of 'getting started' with ubuntu page needs to be shown on a new install. its common to hear people complain that linux can't do X, when infact X is quite easy to do but maybe hard to find.

in the case of installing software, it might be good if more of the websites that offer linux source tar.gz files also had a message along the lines of "X is probably already packaged for your distribution, here are instructions to install on Ubuntu Fedora SUSE ..."



This is possibly the one point in your entire post, which *may* be true. However, it depends on whether you're talking purely about the x86 port or not. If you aren't, then Linux loses that race to NetBSD.

Linux supports more architectures than netbsd.
http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.html

Swagman
October 27th, 2009, 11:16 AM
Welcome to Ubuntu Forums Rory.

Pull a stool up to the bar and grab a beer.. They are free here !!

Thanks for taking the time (on your holidays no less) to reply here.

madnessjack
October 27th, 2009, 11:17 AM
Why do people hate Rory for being honest about Ubuntu? I don't get it. Someone please explain. He's definitely had a better experience than I have had with it - I just stuck at it more :)

Jimleko211
October 27th, 2009, 11:30 AM
Just read the news story on the BBC about Ubuntu, and they did a really good job educating people about it. I'll check out the video soon.

Iehova
October 27th, 2009, 11:31 AM
Hi,
Thanks for all the feedback on my post on Ubuntu - and even on my response to the responses.I have just a couple of points - and a question for the members of this forum.

And thank you Rory for the time and effort you're putting in. Trying to get to grips with a totally new operating system isn't easy and I appreciate the BBC's coverage of Ubuntu.


I go on to say that I struggled to work out how I would organise my multimedia activities - and that, I'm afraid, is a simple statement of fact. Out of the office, I use a Macbook with professional video editing software, I organise and edit my photos using iPhoto, and I store music in itunes. Now those tasks may all be simple enough in Ubuntu. But for me, like many coming to Ubuntu for the first time, there will be legacy issues, in that having learned complex programs and stored media in them, we will be reluctant to start all over again.

This is a very real problem, and installing software remains the best example in my opinion. Would you agree, then, that Ubuntu could benefit from an initial tutorial that would run the first time you boot the operating system, and tell you how to achieve these sorts of tasks?


And finally to my question. You will find on the BBC website today a story - plus video - about Ubuntu. Can anyone point me towards another mainstream news organisation that has given more coverage to Linux over the last week?

Again, I think that what Auntie is doing is really excellent. Obviously it would be nice to see a huge feature on BBC breakfast but that is, I'm sure, somewhat unrealistic. :D Perhaps a little one though. ;)

nothingspecial
October 27th, 2009, 11:36 AM
First off welcome to the forums and thanks very much for your continued involement in this discussion.



But for me, like many coming to Ubuntu for the first time, there will be legacy issues, in that having learned complex programs and stored media in them, we will be reluctant to start all over again.




I`d just like to say, I agree with you completely. I`m one of a rare breed of computer users that started out with linux. A couple of years ago I bought a new laptop with windows vista pre installed. I fiddled about with it for a few days but I didn`t really know what I was doing so I nuked the hard drive and installed Ubuntu. I didn`t want to learn how to get things done in Windows because, like you said in your original blog post


it would not make my computing life any simpler and more pleasurable than it is now

In other words I had exactly the same experience as you did but from the other point of view.

I can understand completely where you are coming from.

However, if you`d like to have another go with ubuntu and you have a problem, just post on these forums - there are tons of ordinary users and experts alike who`ll give you a hand.

Cheers

Jimleko211
October 27th, 2009, 11:43 AM
I love the video in the news post, it shows off Ubuntu in an honest, straight forward manner. And to the person who made the video, THANK YOU for pointing out about the terminal. You don't have to use it that much anymore but it's a whole lot faster than the graphical methods...

Tibuda
October 27th, 2009, 11:46 AM
Why do people hate Rory for being honest about Ubuntu? I don't get it. Someone please explain. He's definitely had a better experience than I have had with it - I just stuck at it more :)

Agreed. Rory realizes there's a familiarity issue and don't blame Ubuntu.

NoaHall
October 27th, 2009, 12:39 PM
For being honest? If he's a so called "tech guru" - Ubuntu wouldn't be that hard to him. It wasn't to me. But then again, I never understand how people say they can't apply the knowledge of how to do things in other OS's to Linux. To me, it just makes sense.

marchwarden
October 27th, 2009, 12:56 PM
At the beginning of last week I was preparing for the job of covering the launch of Windows 7. Whatever you think of Windows - and I realise that even uttering the name here is like walking into a pub in Liverpool wearing a Man U shirt - it's surely difficult to argue that this was not a significant story, in business as well as technology terms.

I don't believe it's fair to tarnish us all with the same brush, especially with such a harsh analogy.

madnessjack
October 27th, 2009, 01:02 PM
If he's a so called "tech guru" - Ubuntu wouldn't be that hard to him.
Windows was hard for me when I first started - he's a tech guru not a Linux enthusiast.

lordyosch
October 27th, 2009, 01:06 PM
For being honest? If he's a so called "tech guru" - Ubuntu wouldn't be that hard to him. It wasn't to me. But then again, I never understand how people say they can't apply the knowledge of how to do things in other OS's to Linux. To me, it just makes sense.

It may be that RCJ *is* a tech guru but the majority of his audience won't be. What would the value be of him (in tech guru way) saying "everything was simple, minor bugs fixed by x,y,z and off I went."

Then when Joe Bloggs installs it for the first time and can't get his MP3s/DVDs to play etc he's wondering why it isn't that easy (unless you know how -then everything is easy)

I think several people have forgotten what its like to be new!

Jay

NoaHall
October 27th, 2009, 01:09 PM
It may be that RCJ *is* a tech guru but the majority of his audience won't be. What would the value be of him (in tech guru way) saying "everything was simple, minor bugs fixed by x,y,z and off I went."

Then when Joe Bloggs installs it for the first time and can't get his MP3s/DVDs to play etc he's wondering why it isn't that easy (unless you know how -then everything is easy)

I think several people have forgotten what its like to be new!

Jay

What can I say, if something says "Install MP3 codecs" when you can't play them, it's a pretty obvious fix. Hell, it even searches for the codecs. And if there's anymore problems, there's always google.

nothingspecial
October 27th, 2009, 01:13 PM
For being honest? If he's a so called "tech guru" - Ubuntu wouldn't be that hard to him. It wasn't to me. But then again, I never understand how people say they can't apply the knowledge of how to do things in other OS's to Linux. To me, it just makes sense.

He`s actually an economics expert who, after writing a book about the "dotcom" boom and bust, was offered the job of BBC Technology Correspondent.

First and foremost he`s a journalist.

It`s not his job to "know" about technology, it`s his job to find out about it and present his findings in a way the general public (not a bunch of linux users) can understand.

This and last week he was covering the launch of windows 7 - big news in the world of computers like it or not, and like all good journalists, presented alternative points of veiw. To be fair, at first he described ubuntu as


a whole sort of little community of enthusiasts building operating systems for absolutely nothing and trying to persuade us that we don’t need to be in with the big boys but actually most computer users frankly they don’t want to bother with that sort of stuff

which to me and many of us is, frankly, laughable. But, like most people he probably didn`t realise how large the linux community is and was focused on windows 7 at the time.

However, as he started to come under (some quite heavy) fire for this he tried Ubuntu and reported his findings. Sorry guys but that`s journalism, and like I said a few posts up, I completely agree with him.

Now he`s joined this forum, contributed to the discussion and asked a question of his own - which I have just realised I`ve not answered.

So what`s he done wrong - well apart from making an understandably missinformed statement in his original report - that was about something else - nothing.

What`s he done right - everything else.

Me, I take my hat off to him.=D>




@rorycellan

No, I don`t know of another mainstream news organisation that has given more coverage to Linux over the last week.

nothingspecial
October 27th, 2009, 01:15 PM
I don't believe it's fair to tarnish us all with the same brush, especially with such a harsh analogy.

Are you talking about United fans, Liverpool fans or Ubuntu users?
;)

NoaHall
October 27th, 2009, 01:17 PM
Deleted due to error in writing - it came across in the wrong way.

nothingspecial
October 27th, 2009, 01:21 PM
Rory :

You decided to bad mouth a entire community which you knew nothing about

Where?

bodyharvester
October 27th, 2009, 01:21 PM
A thought just occured to me, where Ubuntu is used by many in Africa does it get the kind of media attention there that Windows does here?

If so that may be an answer to Rory's question. I'm glad he came here to contribute to our discussion, and hope he contributes to many more in the future.

madnessjack
October 27th, 2009, 01:33 PM
Rory :

You decided to bad mouth a entire community which you knew nothing about, nor understood the concept of "open source" correctly, and thus you mis-informed the masses. For that, you can not, and will not, be forgiven. Good day to you.
What the hell have you been reading???

phillw
October 27th, 2009, 01:40 PM
I've just read & watched the news snippet on the BBC - Pretty darn cool, well put together and gr8 coverage for koala - I'm looking forward to seeing how the mainstream USA news / tech programmes cover the launch of Koala.;)

In fact, at this precise time - Koala is on the front page of the news site .... KEWL !!!!!

I'm having 'technical' details uploading the screen shot (It's toooo big for the forum, unless i shrink it so far you can't read it !!!)

I've popped the screen-shot here, until I find a better home for it !!!

http://phillw.net

Hmmmm... an intro for ubuntu when you 1st launch it .... TBH, it's that blooming obvious that there should be one, how did we all miss it ?!!!!!

Phill.

nothingspecial
October 27th, 2009, 01:41 PM
I suppose if there`s one "crime" the bbc is culpable of, it is not mentioning that Ubuntu is one of many "flavours" of linux.

koshatnik
October 27th, 2009, 01:42 PM
Oh dear. A classic example of people needing to engage brains before mouths.

Seriously, ranting and balling and crying about someones opinions is pathetic, childish and makes you look like an idiot. Seems like alot of people like to look like idiots. Grow up.

Rory's comments were from a novice linux users and gave an honest opinion of using the OS. Yeah, installing stuff on linux is a bit different and yes Canonical could provide a tutorial for this. Apple need to as well, as when I first used OS X I had no idea whatsoever how to install things. As far as I know, I don't remember Microsoft either providing walkthroughs in how to install things.

No OS is "user friendly". There is no such thing. There is familiar and unfamiliar. Alot of linux distros assume the user has a certain level of understanding and this, I think, is what Rory is alluding to here.

Nerd King
October 27th, 2009, 01:44 PM
Assuming that this is the actual chap himself, kudos to him for being ballsy enough to come to what he probably considers hostile territory (I'm a little disappointed at some people's reaction). I think some of the reaction is due to zealotry, of course. It gets a little religious at times, especially with newer users. However, some of it is also that many are so used to seeing stuff that's way out there, that they're kinda ready to bite at anything. It's worth noting that this is the internet, and people are kinda like that online, it doesn't represent all linux users. Unfortunately posts like NoaHall's just do us no favours, and honestly just read it with the voice of Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons to understand why. Also, quite a few of us dual-boot. I use windows for games, linux for work, the right tool for each job. Windows isn't evil, it's just not very good!

Overall I'm very pleased to see media coverage, and hopefully it'll give people an insight into what is out there.

For what it's worth, in ease of use, I've had 8 year olds using Ubuntu 9.04 and they find it a piece of cake. In fact, it's the least techy people who'll find it easier as they have less Windows hangover to carry with them (judging from my experience).

Good to see the beeb giving us a little bit of coverage, and presumably as Linux gathers more momentum, there will be bigger stories.

Remember, Firefox only had a tiny market share at the start, and now IE is really locked in a fight for dominance, and that's led to so much innovation in browsers and so many new players entering the market. If the same happens in Operating Systems it's win-win for everyone.

PS let me know how Vietnam is, I'm living in Thailand (I'm British) but will be checking it out over Christmas :)

Nerd King
October 27th, 2009, 01:48 PM
PS as others have alluded to. Next on Canonical's feature list.. Some guidance on first boot.

Might I propose a box pops up telling users a few basics and letting them know there's an icon on gnome-panel that they can click on for help. Make it context-sensitive maybe? Make it ask the user questions about what they want to do.. "do you want to install free software?" "do you want to watch a dvd" and show screenies on how to do it, but also provide a button users can click which will do it for them. "I want to watch a DVD" should add the repo, add the packages, and open VLC ready for playing. It should be that easy. Remember, we don't just want to be as good as Windows. We want to be better. That includes little details like these for new users.

Regenweald
October 27th, 2009, 02:47 PM
I think he was honest, he took the time to test Ubuntu and he wasn't impressed.

I think this is exactly the problem, It was one day. Use windows for ten years, Linux for ten, then hit me with a blow by blow. Don't use one operating system for your life, mess around with another differently designed from the ground up for part of a day, then give an all encompassing review.

I don't care that he does not like linux, unlike some people in here, that does not hurt my feelings or make me angry. The reason I don't bother with these blog reviews is the review process. It is true that and OS is measured with a different stick than other software and 'easy' and 'intuitive' is greatly expected but a few hours to review an entire OS is not adequate.

While the BBC's servers may likely be running Linux, BSD or Solaris, It is not practical to give a free operating system too much airtime or good reviews when your bread and butter comes from the few billion windows users. Would you review a photo editing app that a fraction of a percent of worldwide computer users use ?

madnessjack
October 27th, 2009, 02:55 PM
Use windows for ten years, Linux for ten, then hit me with a blow by blow. Don't use one operating system for your life ... then give an all encompassing review.
It wasn't exactly an encompassing review but this is what people will do. It's not their fault or their problem, it's just a factor that makes it harder for people to like Ubuntu, especially on first impressions.

Iehova
October 27th, 2009, 04:10 PM
Rory :

You decided to bad mouth a entire community which you knew nothing about, nor understood the concept of "open source" correctly, and thus you mis-informed the masses. For that, you can not, and will not, be forgiven. Good day to you.

This is ridiculous. Rory made one ill-thought out comment in a high pressure environment on live telly (the Windows system had, unsurprisingly, clapped out ;)) and ever since then has gone out of his way to make it up to this community.

I sincerely hope that Rory and others in his position don't take comments like yours to be representative of the Linux community.

Swagman
October 27th, 2009, 04:19 PM
This is ridiculous. Rory made one ill-thought out comment in a high pressure environment on live telly (the Windows system had, unsurprisingly, clapped out ;)) and ever since then has gone out of his way to make it up to this community.

I sincerely hope that Rory and others in his position don't take comments like yours to be representative of the Linux community.

Seconded

bodyharvester
October 27th, 2009, 04:30 PM
This is ridiculous. Rory made one ill-thought out comment in a high pressure environment on live telly (the Windows system had, unsurprisingly, clapped out ;)) and ever since then has gone out of his way to make it up to this community.

I sincerely hope that Rory and others in his position don't take comments like yours to be representative of the Linux community.


Seconded

Thirded

days_of_ruin
October 27th, 2009, 04:32 PM
"For the first time in 20 years you can buy Ubuntu pre-installed from more than one manufacturer," he said. "That's an extraordinary story."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8326264.stm

Err, what?

betrunkenaffe
October 27th, 2009, 04:38 PM
I want to thank Rory for caring enough to use his time (vacation time! - I would never waste my vacation talking to random potentially hostile people) to come over here and chat it up with us. Please ignore the rabid fanboys, I do, I've been there and seen the error of the ways.

Does Ubuntu need a tutorial? Yes. The top complaints with Linux can all be encompassed with "I didn't know how to do it so it was too hard".

What I'd like to know is if Rory would be interested in actually trying Karmic on a machine for a week (and trying to do what he normally would) and then post back where he had problems during the week (as well how he resolved, or what he tried if failed)?

For those that like to assume position dictates person: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2007/12/about_rory_cellanjones_1.html

betrunkenaffe
October 27th, 2009, 04:39 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8326264.stm

Err, what?

Computer makers HP, Dell, Toshiba and Acer now all offer the OS as a choice on machines people buy via their websites.

Also, system76 sells them (I love my lappy so I plug them when I can)

Dark_Stang
October 27th, 2009, 05:43 PM
I really shouldn't post in this forum. I feel as though doing so is the moral equivalent of beating up five year olds with Down's Syndrome; it's just not fair. However, I'm going to, just this once.
Feeling a little high and mighty there?


I don't suppose you've heard of OpenBSD, perchance?
Actually I have. I consider BSD to be secure and I regret that I didn't mention that here. I would say I put BSD on the same level as Linux.


Care to define what the word, "advanced," means in this context?
Well, we could go by the lines of code standard. Referencing my CompTIA Security+ book shows that Debian 4.0 had over 238 million lines of code where Vista only has 50 million. FreeBSD is cited at 9 million, by the way.
We could go by the best performance. Most benchmarks show Linux being much more efficient for nearly any hardware configuration.
We could go by what platforms it can run on. Windows is restricted to x86 and AMD64. Linux also runs on PPC, Sparc, etc.
There are a few more but I'm running low on time and have to go to work in a few minutes.


This is possibly the one point in your entire post, which *may* be true. However, it depends on whether you're talking purely about the x86 port or not. If you aren't, then Linux loses that race to NetBSD.
Again, with this one I was trying to reference all the hardware that Linux supports and all the architectures it runs on. Everything from a wristwatch to the home desktop to laptops to servers to supercomptuers sporting thousands of cores. Linux supports most architectures and the vast majority of the peripherals that would be hooked up to them.


Given my own experience with Intrepid, if this were true, we'd be in an ocean of fecal matter the depth of the North Atlantic. ;)

I'm currently using FreeBSD. Saying that it is more stable than Ubuntu could be the greatest understatement to have been made in the last several thousand years.
So you were having issues... with what? I start out with Ubuntu minimal, install the software I want on top of it, and then I don't worry about anything ever. I've never had issues with crashes that weren't easily fixed by an update or a patch.


I admit; no clue, here. Probably true; however, I'd also argue that the main reason why more fixes get issued in Ubuntu's case, is because a hell of a lot more *needs* fixing.
I would have to argue here that, there are more patches to Linux because there are far more eyes on Linux rather than BSD. And yes, when you are trying to support every piece of hardware on the market in the kernel, a lot of patches are going to be written. I admit I don't know enough about BSD's hardware support, but I can't imagine it supports as many devices as linux.


I'd actually initially gone on to write some truly savage bile in response to this post, but I remembered my initial resolve to be compassionate and engage in restraint.

My point, quite simply, is this. Do some more research, before you claim that Debian is the last word in computer operating systems, FOSS or otherwise.
Oh no, I don't use Debian. I do use a Debian based distrobution though because that's what I am comfortable with. I feel like I've done quite a bit of research here. But if you have anything to show that I am wrong, please do so. I am in a constant state of learning as I'm still in college so a little more info never hurts.

lefen
October 27th, 2009, 06:04 PM
I go on to say that I struggled to work out how I would organise my multimedia activities - and that, I'm afraid, is a simple statement of fact. Out of the office, I use a Macbook with professional video editing software, I organise and edit my photos using iPhoto, and I store music in itunes. Now those tasks may all be simple enough in Ubuntu. But for me, like many coming to Ubuntu for the first time, there will be legacy issues, in that having learned complex programs and stored media in them, we will be reluctant to start all over again.


I think this is a really important point that Rory is making here, in his capacity as a new Linux user (welcome, by the way!). Specifically, Linux can't (currently) offer those "killer apps" that people are bonded to for whatever reason. You just can't ask people to suddenly give up whatever specific app they use daily just for the benefits of Linux.

Some examples: my gf loves her iPod and she buys all her music and videos etc through iTunes. Can you expect her to switch to Linux? How about when I was jobhunting and people were asking for CVs in MS Office .doc format? Sure, I saved them as filetype .doc in Open Office, but I sure as heck checked the layout on Word before I sent them off.

What I believe we're talking about here is the path of least resistance. Simply put, when Linux can offer the "killer" apps natively (forget Wine; instead think Microsoft Office, Photoshop etc etc on Macs) then I think we're on to a winner. Until then, we all know why we're Linux fans, so lets be happy that a Linux distro is getting so much press!

days_of_ruin
October 27th, 2009, 06:06 PM
Computer makers HP, Dell, Toshiba and Acer now all offer the OS as a choice on machines people buy via their websites.

Also, system76 sells them (I love my lappy so I plug them when I can)

I was referring to the "20 years" part. Ubuntu has not been around for 20 years and neither has Linux.

jwbrase
October 27th, 2009, 06:20 PM
I go on to say that I struggled to work out how I would organise my multimedia activities - and that, I'm afraid, is a simple statement of fact. Out of the office, I use a Macbook with professional video editing software, I organise and edit my photos using iPhoto, and I store music in itunes. Now those tasks may all be simple enough in Ubuntu. But for me, like many coming to Ubuntu for the first time, there will be legacy issues, in that having learned complex programs and stored media in them, we will be reluctant to start all over again.

That may be on of the things that made it easy for me to make the transition to Linux then: For one, I don't do an awful lot with multimedia. For another, I prefer to organize multimedia through a file browser, rather than special software. That means that once I've learned a new file browser, I can organize all my multimedia to my satisfaction without having to learn anything new.

tcoffeep
October 27th, 2009, 06:21 PM
I think this is exactly the problem, It was one day. Use windows for ten years, Linux for ten, then hit me with a blow by blow. Don't use one operating system for your life, mess around with another differently designed from the ground up for part of a day, then give an all encompassing review.

I don't care that he does not like linux, unlike some people in here, that does not hurt my feelings or make me angry. The reason I don't bother with these blog reviews is the review process. It is true that and OS is measured with a different stick than other software and 'easy' and 'intuitive' is greatly expected but a few hours to review an entire OS is not adequate.

While the BBC's servers may likely be running Linux, BSD or Solaris, It is not practical to give a free operating system too much airtime or good reviews when your bread and butter comes from the few billion windows users. Would you review a photo editing app that a fraction of a percent of worldwide computer users use ?


The point of it though, I think, is too show how a complete novice/newbie approaches the OS. Ubuntu is spouted as being the end-all best novice introduction to Linux, and when people start getting angry (and they have been) because a newbie doesn't like it, or finds it isn't comfortable, it pushes people away.

For every novice that comes and finds linux to be interesting, there's many -many- more pushed away by :

(a) the linux fanatics who attack anyone who says anything bad about their OS

(b) the anti-microsoft crowd

(c) the fact that it isn't as newbie-friendly as it is said to be (and it isn't. Something doesn't work, they have to figure it out. People don't want to figure things out at the end of the day. They just wanna open up some sudoku and not worry about this and this and this and resolutions)

(d) the hypocrisy of the linux users ( I INSTALLED UBUNTU ON MY FRIENDS COMPUTER AND MADE IT LOOK LIKE WINDOWS P_P ^_^ lol, dude gets congratulated or w/e by a lot of people and insulted by a small amount of people, and then when mr. friend figures it out and has a problem and posts a question, he gets replies like LINUX ISN'T LIKE WINDOWS and LINUX IS FOR TECHNICAL PEOPLE (i've seen both these responses quite often).

My rant is over, but still : He was new to linux, no? ( i didn't watch the video, but I assume he had trouble, and said as much) Instead of insulting him, fix the problems he has with it. When newbie #2 comes around, fix the problems -he- has with it. Again and again. The endless cycle. When there are no more newbies, you either won, or the OS died.

keepitsimpleengr
October 27th, 2009, 06:41 PM
Hi,
Thanks for all the feedback on my post on Ubuntu - and even on my response to the responses.I have just a couple of points - and a question for the members of this forum.
………
And finally to my question. You will find on the BBC website today a story - plus video - about Ubuntu. Can anyone point me towards another mainstream news organisation that has given more coverage to Linux over the last week?

Rory Cellan-Jones

Welcome to the forums, Mr. Cellan-Jones.

A quick search using Google over the last week returned this surprising result.

Last week from BBC: 4 With similar results not omitted: 10
(+linux site:news.bbc.co.uk -blog)

Last week from nytimes.com: 5 With similar results not omitted: 14
(+linux site:nytimes.com -blog)

Last week from msnbc.msn.com: 7 With similar results not omitted: 54
(+linux site:msnbc.msn.com -blog)

Last week from site:drudgereport.com: 0 … Well, not all were surprising.
(+linux site:drudgereport.com -blog)

I must add that I hope you are taking this as light hearted. And I do enjoy your pluck.

The article Mr Cellan-Jones refers to is "Ubuntu readies the Karmic Koala" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8326264.stm) has a delightful video and some very interesting points. The article did however cite Mr Cellan-Jones blog "24 hours with Ubuntu" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/10/24_hours_with_ubuntu.html), which started the original thread "BBC Tech guru chucks a few at Ubuntu…" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1300055), and the subsequent thread "BBC Tech guru chucks a few more at Ubuntu…" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1302395&highlight=keepitsimpleengr) wherein Mr Cellan-Jones politely responded (http://ubuntuforums.org/search.php?searchid=65819717), partially quoted above.

I reformulate my earlier proposal, suggest avoiding the provocative fanboy inflamation, and provide insights into the strengths, weaknesses and quirks based on the experience of people who actually use two or more of Linux/Ubuntu, Windows, and Apple. I think Mr. Cellan-Jones is eminently qualified to do this.

A note about my own opining―I started with Macintosh (GUI/Desktop), moved to Windows and have lately added Ubuntu. I actively use Windows for commercial and legacy reasons, and use Ubuntu now primarily, as I am retired and can do as I please. I counsel and mentor some few people, most of whom are not extremely proficient with computing technology. I recommend Windows or Ubuntu on a case by case basis. I have yet to recommend Apple, probably because those who would benefit are unlikely to seek my advice. I am not the evangelist I once was. I am quite miffed about my experience with Vista, finding it suitable only for computer games, and even frustrating with those. Working with the Linux community recalls to mind experiences of forty plus years ago, when computing was a more cooperative and collaborative effort, but this is an old-timers reminisce.

Bodsda
October 27th, 2009, 06:47 PM
The article Mr Cellan-Jones refers to is "Ubuntu readies the Karmic Koala" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8326264.stm) has a delightful video and some very interesting points.

The guy from Ubuntu on this video is erm... how shall I put this... Wrong! A preloaded Ubuntu system will not 'work perfectly' 100% of the time and he makes it sound as if using the terminal is a bad thing

aysiu
October 27th, 2009, 06:51 PM
Yeah, installing stuff on linux is a bit different and yes Canonical could provide a tutorial for this.



I first got my Windows XP and a little offer popped up, an offer to tour my new installation, I took the offer and learned how to do nearly everything in Windows XP. That is all Ubuntu requires to solidify It's use for beginners and the less tech-savvy amongst us.


as people have already said, maybe some sort of 'getting started' with ubuntu page needs to be shown on a new install.
PS as others have alluded to. Next on Canonical's feature list.. Some guidance on first boot.

Whatever happened to my slideshow tutorial idea?

From Idea #136: Add a tutorial slideshow to the installation process (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/136/):
This idea was marked as being in development the 6 January 09. Target release: Ubuntu 9.10 Karmic Koala. Is this really the best Ubuntu can do? (Installer slideshow) (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1245384)

I haven't been able to test recent builds of Karmic's installer. Is the slideshow in there or not?

Tibuda
October 27th, 2009, 06:55 PM
I haven't been able to test recent builds of Karmic's installer. Is the slideshow in there or not?

Yes, the slideshow is there, but Rory has not seen it, as Ubuntu came preinstalled for him.


(...) he makes it sound as if using the terminal is a bad thing

It is a bad thing for many people. It surely is powerful., but most people want to avoid it.

NoaHall
October 27th, 2009, 07:00 PM
What the hell have you been reading???

Sorry, I was in a rush and it came across in the wrong way. I meant to say that as a journalist, you should attempt to present the correct facts, not ones which are incorrect. I've already had to re-inform about 17 people which have asked me about Linux and Ubuntu as a result of the BBC broadcast.

keepitsimpleengr
October 27th, 2009, 07:01 PM
Hi,
Thanks for all the feedback on my post on Ubuntu - and even on my response to the responses.I have just a couple of points - and a question for the members of this forum.
……………
And finally to my question. You will find on the BBC website today a story - plus video - about Ubuntu. Can anyone point me towards another mainstream news organisation that has given more coverage to Linux over the last week?

Rory Cellan-Jones

Mr Cellan-Jones:

Welcome to the forums.

I did answer your significant question in a new thread "BBC Tech guru chucks a few ⋯ the ripost continues…" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8175696#post8175696)

aysiu
October 27th, 2009, 07:02 PM
Yes, the slideshow is there, but Rory has not seen it, as Ubuntu came preinstalled for him. Yeah, I don't really care about Rory ("too much bother" for me). I'm thinking more for people who actually want to give Ubuntu a chance. Most of those people will be installing Ubuntu themselves.

KiwiNZ
October 27th, 2009, 07:04 PM
The guy from Ubuntu on this video is erm... how shall I put this... Wrong! A preloaded Ubuntu system will not 'work perfectly' 100% of the time and he makes it sound as if using the terminal is a bad thing

The Canonical Rep never referred to the terminal as bad thing.

KiwiNZ
October 27th, 2009, 07:08 PM
For the "high street" store purchaser machines preloaded with Ubuntu are a better idea as they are for Windows. They do not have to go hunting for drivers etc, so yes , they are right in what they say .

tcoffeep
October 27th, 2009, 07:08 PM
Actually I have. I consider BSD to be secure and I regret that I didn't mention that here. I would say I put BSD on the same level as Linux.

LOL



Well, we could go by the lines of code standard. Referencing my CompTIA Security+ book shows that Debian 4.0 had over 238 million lines of code where Vista only has 50 million. FreeBSD is cited at 9 million, by the way.

My only response is a copy-pasta : ( http://suckless.org/manifest/ )

Many (open source) hackers are proud if they achieve large amounts of code, because they believe the more lines of code they've written, the more progress they have made. The more progress they have made, the more skilled they are. This is simply a delusion.

Most hackers actually don’t care much about code quality. Thus, if they get something working which seems to solve a problem, they stick with it. If this kind of software development is applied to the same source code throughout its entire life-cycle, we're left with large amounts of code, a totally screwed code structure, and a flawed system design. This is because of a lack of conceptual clarity and integrity in the development process.

Code complexity is the mother of bloated, hard to use, and totally inconsistent software. With complex code, problems are solved in suboptimal ways, valuable resources are endlessly tied up, performance slows to a halt, and vulnerabilities become a commonplace. The only solution is to scrap the entire project and rewrite it from scratch.

The bad news: quality rewrites rarely happen, because hackers are proud of large amounts of code. They think they understand the complexity in the code, thus there’s no need to rewrite it. They think of themselves as masterminds, understanding what others can never hope to grasp. To these types, complex software is the ideal.

Ingenious ideas are simple. Ingenious software is simple. Simplicity is the heart of the Unix philosophy. The more code lines you have removed, the more progress you have made. As the number of lines of code in your software shrinks, the more skilled you have become and the less your software sucks.

keepitsimpleengr
October 27th, 2009, 07:18 PM
Into the breach…

From blogs.zdnet.com

Yes, Ubuntu can absolutely be the default Windows alternative (http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=26606&tag=content;col1)

ZarathustraDK
October 27th, 2009, 08:17 PM
@ OP's link

Lol, I find it funny how he expects to be fully proficient with every nook and cranny of an OS after 24 hours.

I remember when I first started using Win 3.1 back in the days. I wasn't installing anything, creating any shortcuts or in any way used the system to anywhere near it's full potential for a looooong time.

ukripper
October 28th, 2009, 12:41 PM
This is the most ridiculously funny comment there - Posted by some mks2005 265. At 11:18am on 28 Oct 2009, mks2005 wrote::


"Yes Unbuntu has brought linux a long way when it comes to ease of use for the average user but its still no where near as good as any version of windows going back to probally windows 98 even."

This entity has no clue of what it is talking about.lol

Johnsie
October 28th, 2009, 12:51 PM
I love the way people complain every time someone writes a bad review about Ubuntu.

ukripper
October 28th, 2009, 01:12 PM
I love the way people complain every time someone writes a bad review about Ubuntu.

That is the beauty of this OS. Makes you feel it as your own!

Johnsie
October 28th, 2009, 01:18 PM
That's a good point... I think the other operating systems do that too and that's why people post bad reviews about their competitiors. People like what they are used to. I know if I wrote a review about OSX I would be complaing about things too and the Mac fanboys would probably tear me apart.

meeples
October 28th, 2009, 01:29 PM
This (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/my-response-to-rory-cellan-jones/) is my response.


I very much look forward to reading your next article, “24 hours learning to ride a bicycle.” The wheels must just not be worth the effort. :lolflag:

ukripper
October 28th, 2009, 01:34 PM
In respect to Windows it will be impossible for me to feel it that way as source code is not open and there is less to tinker around (if you do then you are breaking the law), so in that respect I can never feel it to be my own OS! Every user has different needs and that is why I use ubuntu to fulfill my users' requirement.

Sealbhach
October 28th, 2009, 02:28 PM
I love the way people complain every time someone writes a bad review about Ubuntu.

I think people get annoyed at an unfair review, most people don't mind criticism of Linux as long as it's fair.

.

jeffus_il
October 28th, 2009, 02:36 PM
I think people get annoyed at an unfair review, most people don't mind criticism of Linux as long as it's fair.

.

"Fair" is a relative concept, relative to culture, nationality, religion, personal history, and every other variable in our makeup. I being in the Linux "camp" will have a different view of fairness than Mr Gates. News media that go head over heals to be "fair" and unbiased often are so painfully fair that they become boring. I personally want publicity that I like and that is good for (Ubuntu) Linux!

Johnsie
October 28th, 2009, 02:58 PM
General gist of any article of this sort: person tries Ubuntu, gets frustrated because it can't exactly replicate what they're used to, b!tches and calls it bad.

And then a very vocal and argumentative minority section of the Ubuntu community immediately begin the flaming. The derogatory comments pile in and you get the usual people attempting to pick apart every single word of the blog post.

Seen it all before umpteen times. It does all kinds of damage to the reputation of the Ubuntu community.

madnessjack
October 28th, 2009, 03:29 PM
Seen it all before umpteen times. It does all kinds of damage to the reputation of the Ubuntu community.
It's sad because the community is the only reason I'm still on Ubuntu - wouldn't have been able to work it out on my own for sure.

Sealbhach
October 28th, 2009, 03:36 PM
"Fair" is a relative concept, relative to culture, nationality, religion, personal history, and every other variable in our makeup.

I would disagree about that, I think most people have an instinct for fairness and can recognise an injustice.

The issue about installing Audacity, for example, is clear cut - he never bothered to check his facts before publishing.

.

madnessjack
October 28th, 2009, 04:17 PM
The issue about installing Audacity, for example, is clear cut - he never bothered to check his facts before publishing.

No, I'm sure he assumed like with Windows or Mac you could just download a program from a website and have it working in minutes. This obviously (for us) isn't the case with Ubuntu, but who is he to know that? He's reporting for his audience, not a bunch of zealots.

jeffus_il
October 28th, 2009, 04:33 PM
I would disagree about that, I think most people have an instinct for fairness and can recognise an injustice.

The issue about installing Audacity, for example, is clear cut - he never bothered to check his facts before publishing.

.

In all "fairness" I understand your disagreement...

Tibuda
October 28th, 2009, 04:36 PM
No, I'm sure he assumed like with Windows or Mac you could just download a program from a website and have it working in minutes. This obviously (for us) isn't the case with Ubuntu, but who is he to know that? He's reporting for his audience, not a bunch of zealots.

Actually this can be also the case with Ubuntu too if the developer provides a deb, like does Opera, Skype and some apps. But why would the developer provide it if the distros already does it for them?

Mr. Picklesworth
October 28th, 2009, 04:36 PM
Whatever happened to my slideshow tutorial idea?

From Idea #136: Add a tutorial slideshow to the installation process (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/136/): Is this really the best Ubuntu can do? (Installer slideshow) (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1245384)

I haven't been able to test recent builds of Karmic's installer. Is the slideshow in there or not?

It's in the final release. It has a truckload of complete translations and an extensive rewrite since that forum post, too.

On a vaguely related thought, does Canonical have an official printed Ubuntu introduction that they give to OEMs? It could serve a similar purpose to the slideshow for those who don't need to run the installer.

Kyugetsuki
October 29th, 2009, 11:39 AM
Thirded

n-thed(to anyone else who would agree just add yourself) ;)

Kyugetsuki
October 29th, 2009, 12:02 PM
Welcome to the forums, Mr. Cellan-Jones.

A quick search using Google over the last week returned this surprising result.

Last week from BBC: 4 With similar results not omitted: 10
(+linux site:news.bbc.co.uk -blog)

Last week from nytimes.com: 5 With similar results not omitted: 14
(+linux site:nytimes.com -blog)

Last week from msnbc.msn.com: 7 With similar results not omitted: 54
(+linux site:msnbc.msn.com -blog)

Last week from site:drudgereport.com: 0 … Well, not all were surprising.
(+linux site:drudgereport.com -blog)

I must add that I hope you are taking this as light hearted. And I do enjoy your pluck.

The article Mr Cellan-Jones refers to is "Ubuntu readies the Karmic Koala" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8326264.stm) has a delightful video and some very interesting points. The article did however cite Mr Cellan-Jones blog "24 hours with Ubuntu" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/10/24_hours_with_ubuntu.html), which started the original thread "BBC Tech guru chucks a few at Ubuntu…" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1300055), and the subsequent thread "BBC Tech guru chucks a few more at Ubuntu…" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1302395&highlight=keepitsimpleengr) wherein Mr Cellan-Jones politely responded (http://ubuntuforums.org/search.php?searchid=65819717), partially quoted above.

I reformulate my earlier proposal, suggest avoiding the provocative fanboy inflamation, and provide insights into the strengths, weaknesses and quirks based on the experience of people who actually use two or more of Linux/Ubuntu, Windows, and Apple. I think Mr. Cellan-Jones is eminently qualified to do this.

A note about my own opining―I started with Macintosh (GUI/Desktop), moved to Windows and have lately added Ubuntu. I actively use Windows for commercial and legacy reasons, and use Ubuntu now primarily, as I am retired and can do as I please. I counsel and mentor some few people, most of whom are not extremely proficient with computing technology. I recommend Windows or Ubuntu on a case by case basis. I have yet to recommend Apple, probably because those who would benefit are unlikely to seek my advice. I am not the evangelist I once was. I am quite miffed about my experience with Vista, finding it suitable only for computer games, and even frustrating with those. Working with the Linux community recalls to mind experiences of forty plus years ago, when computing was a more cooperative and collaborative effort, but this is an old-timers reminisce.


Don't worry, sir this community only needs a little straightening up. that's why the 'open' in open source is there right?

BTW welcome to forums, Mr. Cellan-Jones. sorry about the rowdy folk and hope you enjoy your stay. :D