Desktop Linux Summit (DLS)

[David Valentine]

I just received an e-mail from Kevin Carmony at Linspire concerning Mark Shuttleworth's reluctance to participate in the Desktop Linux Summit (http://www.desktoplinuxsummit.com/) because "Ubuntu is hesitant to come to 'The Linspire show.'" Carmony goes on to argue--persuasively in my mind--that this is a misperception. You can read his letter here (http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter.php) and see for yourself. So my question is, what is the community's take on this issue?

[Brunellus]

my first reaction is syntactical; it cannot be a "summit" if the goal is to invite lower-level users. I know that sounds hopelessly elitist (and this coming from someone who is not a devloper, heh.), but I always thought the point of "summits" was to arrive at some sort of elite consensus, so the various leaders could bring their retinues around.

Ubuntu's non-participation in the DLS is understandable. I wouldn't want to be suckered into someone else's show, either. Anyway I think, personally, that a lot of Linux users, even those who use Linux on the desktop ourselves and are committed to free software on the desktop, are still wary of declaring, outright, that Linux is Ready For The Desktop (tm).

why should a distro that practices sudo go to a show run by people who run as root by default, anyway?

[David Valentine]

it cannot be a "summit" if the goal is to invite lower-level users.Interesting point, although my focus was on the number of Linux distributors would be coming (so "summit" of the producers).
I wouldn't want to be suckered into someone else's show, either.I guess that's what I didn't get: how is it someone else's show? It seems to me that more participants = more publicity + better communication between producers and consumers, and that equation would work for everyone.

[Brunellus]

Linspire pays the piper, Linspire calls the tune. No matter what the protestations to the contrary, that's always going to be a lingering doubt. I'd be interested to see what sort of participation they get, and whether the big commercial players in the desktop linux market--Novell (OpenSuSE, Novell Linux Desktop), RedHat (Fedora, RHEL), and Mandriva--will be there, along with Xandros. If it looks like Ubuntu is the only holdout, then it might be a good idea to go. If, on the other hand, the other large, well-funded distros don't show (or, worse, have NEVER shown), it starts to smell an awful lot like a Linspire show.

[KiwiNZ]

His letter wouldn't inspire me to go.I would imagine Mark has a busy schedule and he wasn't convinced enough to change his schedule. It is hard to see a fiscal advantage in attendence.

[David Valentine]

...whether the big commercial players in the desktop linux market--Novell (OpenSuSE, Novell Linux Desktop), RedHat (Fedora, RHEL), and Mandriva--will be there, along with XandrosThe list of sponsors is here (http://www.desktoplinuxsummit.com/sponsors.php), and it includes Novell and RedHat.

[mstlyevil]

The list of sponsors is here (http://www.desktoplinuxsummit.com/sponsors.php), and it includes Novell and RedHat.

Novell, Red Hat and Linspire are the only distros that amount to anything going to be in attendance. I have to agree with MS on this one. This looks like more of a corporate Linux show than a community based conference. I just don't think it is all that importamt.

[angkor]

3rd option on the poll. I'm not the one who is going so let Mark decide for himself.

[Bandit]

His letter wouldn't inspire me to go.I would imagine Mark has a busy schedule and he wasn't convinced enough to change his schedule. It is hard to see a fiscal advantage in attendence.
Agreed..

[poofyhairguy]

I just received an e-mail from Kevin Carmony at Linspire concerning Mark Shuttleworth's reluctance to participate in the Desktop Linux Summit (http://www.desktoplinuxsummit.com/) because "Ubuntu is hesitant to come to 'The Linspire show.'" Carmony goes on to argue--persuasively in my mind--that this is a misperception. You can read his letter here (http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter.php) and see for yourself. So my question is, what is the community's take on this issue?

Mark does not sell Ubuntu for a price, so there is little benefit of going to what is basically a marketing event (to help sell distros).

I vote let Mark decide.

[David Valentine]

Mark does not sell Ubuntu for a price, so there is little benefit of going to what is basically a marketing event (to help sell distros).That same argument could be applied to any Ubuntu marketing effort, be it distributing free CDs or just spreading the good word. The chief benefit of all of these, it seems to me, is to increase the number of Ubuntu users. Am I missing something here?

[Stormy Eyes]

Sounds like a marketing wankathon to me. Why should Shuttleworth bother?

[David Valentine]

Why should Shuttleworth bother?I'm not sure it has to be Shuttleworth (except for the sponsorship fee, I guess). But in any case, it seems like the same reason why anyone would bother marketing--something about improving market share for Ubuntu and acceptance of desktop Linux in general, perhaps. It could be good publicity for those who are vaguely interested in pursuing desktop Linux (like some of my colleagues) but will not go the same route to it as did most of the people on these forums. But I'm a noob, so what do I know about attracting people to Linux?:confused:

[Kevin Carmony]

To be clear, my Linspire Letter was not necessarily an attempt to get Mark to change his mind. He's always been very forth coming with me in his requirements for Ubuntu to be at the show. It was really more a matter of me wanting to clear up any misunderstanding about the show, even if Ubuntu should decide not to come. Red Hat, Novell, Debian, Linspire, Mandriva, Xandros, etc. have been there in the past and most are there this year (Red Hat and Novell are the main sponsors this year), so naturally, we'd love for Ubuntu to participate as well, but we respect Mark's decision. There are certainly other factors to consider, such as budgets, scheduling, etc., I just wanted to clear up the misunderstandings that have surrounded DLS for the last few years.

Even if Mark can't make it personally, since Ubuntu is considered an open source community project, vs a commercial company, they qualify for a free booth, so technically others from the Ubuntu community could come and man a booth, give away copies of Ubuntu, answer questions, participate in the Tux Squad booth (install fest), etc. Debian, OpenOffice, KDE, etc. are usually there, and aren't charged for a booth.

The main goal of the show is NOT about marketing. It's about EDUCATION. 95% of computer users don't have a clue what Linux is. Go to a computer store, talk to the families and people shopping for a computer, and ask them, you'll see. DLS helps to educate the media, governments, businesses, educators, and consumres that Linux IS in fact an option they should consider for their desktops.

Keep up the great work over here! Hopefully I'll get to meet some of you at DLS.

Thanks,

Kevin Carmony
CEO, Linspire, Inc.

[Kevin Carmony]

why should a distro that practices sudo go to a show run by people who run as root by default, anyway?

Linspire is exactly the same as every other distros in that during the install you are encouraged to set up user accounts and Linspire makes it super easy to do just that. During the install we explain the security implications and why they should not run as root. The only difference is we don't FORCE the user to not run as root if that is what THEY want to do.

We are die-hard freedom fighters over here at Linspire, and we get very upset when engineers try to tell us how to run our computers. We believe in freedom of choice, and that more choice is good, not bad. I would never run as root, most Linspire users wouldn't and don't, but if they want to, that's THEIR choice not yours or mine. I'm not a programmer, and as a normal computer user, I personally get very turned off by the snobby attitude of ellietest engineers who try to tell me how to live my life or run my computer. I welcome their educating me to the realities of security, and I welcome their encouragement to do things properly, but I HATE anyone FORCING me to do things their way and taking choice away from me.

I don't drink. I never have and never will. I personally think it's a bad habbit that takes lives (I have had people very close to me killed by drunk drivers). BUT, I don't force others to live as I do. I think you'd be more "secure" if you never drank, and I might be right in encouraging you not to, but should I FORCE you not to?

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Linspire pays the piper, Linspire calls the tune. No matter what the protestations to the contrary, that's always going to be a lingering doubt. I'd be interested to see what sort of participation they get, and whether the big commercial players in the desktop linux market--Novell (OpenSuSE, Novell Linux Desktop), RedHat (Fedora, RHEL), and Mandriva--will be there, along with Xandros. If it looks like Ubuntu is the only holdout, then it might be a good idea to go. If, on the other hand, the other large, well-funded distros don't show (or, worse, have NEVER shown), it starts to smell an awful lot like a Linspire show.

As has been pointed out, pretty much every distro (Novell, Red Hat, Debian, Sun, Mandriva, Xandros, etc.) have been there in the past and most will be there this year. The two major sponsors this year are Novell and Red Hat. List so far registered for this year's DLS: http://www.desktoplinuxsummit.org/sponsors.php

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Novell, Red Hat and Linspire are the only distros that amount to anything going to be in attendance. I have to agree with MS on this one. This looks like more of a corporate Linux show than a community based conference. I just don't think it is all that importamt.

I'm confused. I always see Mark jetting all over the planet (and beyond ; -) trying to educate the world about the wonders of Linux, so why wouldn't he want to be at the only major show where the media, business, educators, governments, etc. are coming to LEARN about desktop Linux? I agree he may not come for scheduling reasons, but to suggest this would be an inefficient way to spread the word, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

This is why DLS has always had the goal of being LOW COST (and free to OSS projects) so that it didn't turn into a show dominated by a few companies. Even the big companies have basic booths, not big monster show pieces. This is about educating the world about what Linux can do, NOT about this or that company standing up above the rest.

Best advice I can give...come on out and see for yourself.

Kevin

[Jucato]

WOW! A CEO responds... here... just couldn't believe my eyes. :D

I voted to let Mark decide. He has his reasons. So let him have it. He's not stopping Ubuntu users from going there, right? I guess the only thing that would matter is that Ubuntu would not have its booth. Let's just give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing and that he has probably consulted others on whether it's good for the community or not. Like I said, he has his reasons. As long as the community is happy with how things are, let him have his reasons.

[Kevin Carmony]

WOW! A CEO responds... here... just couldn't believe my eyes. :D

I have thousands of posts (http://forum.linspire.com/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7) over at the Linspire forum, so I figured I'd come bug everyone here for a bit and give them a break. =)

Kevin

PS: I tried to clean up all my posts above, making them one post, but I couldn't figure out how to DELETE a post. The scissors button says Edit/Delete, and I can see how to edit a post, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to DELETE one. Help? =)

[TekMate]

I am not an active user in these forums I post every once in a while but I use Ubuntu on my PowerBook and Linspire on my X86 laptop and I think both companies have a lot to offer one another.

[Lovechild]

Let's see, there's a massive gathering of Desktop distribution and Ubuntu doesn't want to partake - is it yet more evidence that Ubuntu just doesn't like to play nice with others (when you disregard Debian to some regard - some of the developers are rather nasty towards upstream).

Now I personally don't like nor use Linspire and pigs will be sprouting not only wings but genitalia of candy before I do. I'm a Fedora person for a reason, it's suits my needs and goals nicely. But even if the summit is preceieved as a wankatron for Linspire why would you not want to at least send a representative, we should cooperate as much as possible.

[Kevin Carmony]

I am not an active user in these forums I post every once in a while but I use Ubuntu on my PowerBook and Linspire on my X86 laptop and I think both companies have a lot to offer one another.

I agree. When someone asks me about a Linux that is totally open source and free, I always recommend Ubuntu, which has done a great job of making the brilliance that is Debian approachable for more people.

Linspire, likewise, has our own area of expertise. We focus on pre-installs with OEM's. Most OEM's need to ship with support for DVD, MP3, Flash, Java, QuickTime, Windows Media, ATI, nVidia, etc., which they get with Linspire. Granted, we have to charge the OEM a few bucks in order for us to pay for some of these licenses, so we're not totally "free," but other than the 3rd party code, all our code is open source (with the one exception of the client for our CNR service).

So yes, both absolutely have their place, as does Gentoo, Fedora, etc.

Kevin

[CaptainTux]

"Sounds like a marketing wankathon to me. Why should Shuttleworth bother?"

Correct me if I am wrong, but Shuttleworth and the founders of Ubuntu have high goals for the distro. They want Ubuntu to be in the hands of home users and schools. Shuttleworth did not achieve the wealth he did by rolling the dice, not marketing, and just hoping people would make him rich. He is a savvy businessman.

Ubuntu comes in one CD like Mepis and Linspire and a few others as opposed to the 4 or 5 that you get with Fedora or Open SUSE...why..it is a desktop distro with some choices made for the user to start off at. The user can then start adding and removing tools at will, but Ubuntu has gone to great lengths to create something a user with no Linux experience could install and understand with relative ease.

The climate of what we call the Linux user is changing. It is no longer the shaggy beard with the black t shirt and coffee stained teeth. It is the housewife, the student, the truck drivers, the cheerleader, etc. These are people who do not even know what vi and emacs are...let alone have an opinion. We welcome them by building distros like Linspire and Ubuntu and Mepis.

The desktop summit is about Desktop Linux. Ironically it is the final frontier even though Linux designed it as a desktop OS. Go figure. You go to Linux World and you have a server fest. This is about Desktop Linux...not Linspire. If it were the Linspire show...why does RedHat have a higher sponsor level than Linspire?

Events like this and Canada's Real World Linux do have an element of marketing to it. So what? Linspire sponsors this one and welcomes everyone to attend. That is merely a contribution to the community. They also give money to Mozilla, but anyone can use Firefox. Novell gives money to OpenOffice, but it is a contribution. How is this opportunity to increase awareness, get some distro makers in the same room to compare notes and swap stories, and to generate some press buzz a bad thing.

If you have ever been involved in a trade show of any sort, you will know that communications and connections made on the trade floor between vendors is a wonderful even with a unique dynamic that only happens on trade shows.

Now, I will admit, I do not use Ubuntu on a daily basis. I use Linspire as my primary, Debian Sarge as my secondary, play with Mepis a lot, and use Ubuntu for my involvement in the Freely Project. I am currently in the process of writing a basic install and config manual for the freely project when they distribute Ubuntu and other software offerings.

[Kevin Carmony]

Now I personally don't like nor use Linspire and pigs will be sprouting not only wings but genitalia of candy before I do.

Linspire has a target market different from pretty much ever other distro and I'm sure is part of the reason the traditional Linux community doesn't fully understand us. Linspire's goal is to take Linux to the average, non-technical computer user, so yes, it may not be the distro for you. However, maybe one day you'd like to see your friends, parents, co-workers, etc., who don't have the knowledge or time to fool around with their OS and software, using Linux?

For example, my 14 year old daughter runs Linux. She doesn't care about kernels, KDE's, GNOME's, X's, etc. She wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to install Linux software, add MP3 support, get her DVD's to play, etc. But, with Linspire, all that just works without her doing anything, and if she wants to install new software, she just clicks and it's done. Apt is easy for someone technical, but to 98% of the world, it would be considered very difficult and a mystery.

You have to realize 95% of the world has NEVER installed an OS. They use the OS that comes when they buy a computer. Just like cars, for every auto mechanic that knows how to fix a car, there are 20 "drivers" that know how to drive a car, but don't have a clue how to fix one, nor do they want to learn. Maybe 5% of the population will change the oil in their own car, but the other 95% will pay someone to do that for them. It's worth a few bucks for them to not have to spend hours learning how to do it.

For these average users, you can't expect them to learn ANYTHING, and if you do, they will just run back to their comfort zone...Windows. They just want to USE their computer, not fix it, work on it, tinker with it, etc.

Every distro plays its part. Gentoo is very different from Ubuntu, which is very different from Fedora, which is very different from Linspire. But, Linspire does have a market. YOU may not run it, but maybe your mother, brother, or best friend could?

Kevin

[mstlyevil]

I'm confused. I always see Mark jetting all over the planet (and beyond ; -) trying to educate the world about the wonders of Linux, so why wouldn't he want to be at the only major show where the media, business, educators, governments, etc. are coming to LEARN about desktop Linux? I agree he may not come for scheduling reasons, but to suggest this would be an inefficient way to spread the word, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

This is why DLS has always had the goal of being LOW COST (and free to OSS projects) so that it didn't turn into a show dominated by a few companies. Even the big companies have basic booths, not big monster show pieces. This is about educating the world about what Linux can do, NOT about this or that company standing up above the rest.

Best advice I can give...come on out and see for yourself.

Kevin

Wow! This is the first time a CEO of a company has ever responded to a post of mine. I want to say thank you for your response to my post. I wiil admit I have never attended the DLS so I was basing my previous post off my first impressions on what was being advertised for the conference. I am openminded about what the conference is about and what it wants to accomplish for Linux. If I were in San Diego at the time of the conference I would definitely would attend it to see for myself what is being promoted. As it is I live over 1400 miles away so I will just have to rely on press reports from the net to suffice. I don't want you to get the impression I was taking a shot at your company or it's product. I was simply looking at the sponsors list and I just did not see that many community driven projects involved and got the wrong impression.

BTW, I want to thank you for letting me try Linspire 5.0 for free a few months back. I do think it is a great distro for first time Linux users who just want their computer to work with very little tinkering. I personally love to tinker and play with my computer so Ubuntu is a better fit for me and a great balance between functionality and the ability to tinker with the OS to make it completely mine.

[Kevin Carmony]

Wow! This is the first time a CEO of a company has ever responded to a post of mine. I want to say thank you for your response to my post. I wiil admit I have never attended the DLS so I was basing my previous post off my first impressions on what was being advertised for the conference. I am openminded about what the conference is about and what it wants to accomplish for Linux. If I were in San Diego at the time of the conference I would definitely would attend it to see for myself what is being promoted. As it is I live over 1400 miles away so I will just have to rely on press reports from the net to suffice. I don't want you to get the impression I was taking a shot at your company or it's product. I was simply looking at the sponsors list and I just did not see that many community driven projects involved and got the wrong impression.

BTW, I want to thank you for letting me try Linspire 5.0 for free a few months back. I do think it is a great distro for first time Linux users who just want their computer to work with very little tinkering. I personally love to tinker and play with my computer so Ubuntu is a better fit for me and a great balance between functionality and the ability to tinker with the OS to make it completely mine.


Thanks. Hopefully one year you can make it, or better yet, there is discussion on having DLS a few times each year: Western US, Eastern US, and Europe.

Keep on tinkering away! I always say, "Windows is like a bowl of vanilla ice cream. Linux is like Baskin Robins." =)

Kevin

[jc87]

Linspire has a target market different from pretty much ever other distro and I'm sure is part of the reason the traditional Linux community doesn't fully understand us. Linspire's goal is to take Linux to the average, non-technical computer user, so yes, it may not be the distro for you. However, maybe one day you'd like to see your friends, parents, co-workers, etc., who don't have the knowledge or time to fool around with their OS and software, using Linux?

For example, my 14 year old daughter runs Linux. She doesn't care about kernels, KDE's, GNOME's, X's, etc. She wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to install Linux software, add MP3 support, get her DVD's to play, etc. But, with Linspire, all that just works without her doing anything, and if she wants to install new software, she just clicks and it's done. Apt is easy for someone technical, but to 98% of the world, it would be considered very difficult and a mystery.

You have to realize 95% of the world has NEVER installed an OS. They use the OS that comes when they buy a computer. Just like cars, for every auto mechanic that knows how to fix a car, there are 20 "drivers" that know how to drive a car, but don't have a clue how to fix one, nor do they want to learn. Maybe 5% of the population will change the oil in their own car, but the other 95% will pay someone to do that for them. It's worth a few bucks for them to not have to spend hours learning how to do it.

For these average users, you can't expect them to learn ANYTHING, and if you do, they will just run back to their comfort zone...Windows. They just want to USE their computer, not fix it, work on it, tinker with it, etc.

Every distro plays its part. Gentoo is very different from Ubuntu, which is very different from Fedora, which is very different from Linspire. But, Linspire does have a market. YOU may not run it, but maybe your mother, brother, or best friend could?

Kevin


I personally don´t have plans to ever use Linspire as my Desktop OS (maybe someday i show it to a couple of friends who don´t understand nothing about computers) , but i agree with you , Gnu/Linux is all about choice , and in this case is good to users have the choice to use Linspire (even if for that they need to pay a few bucks).

By the way , is always nice to see a CEO talking man to man in a public forum , that is one good thing in the community.

[mr.gigabytes]

If Mark Shuttleworth has the time, I think he should go and participate. As a business owner, I will be going because the benefits to my business will more than make up for the cost of doing so.

[Lovechild]

Linspire has a target market different from pretty much ever other distro and I'm sure is part of the reason the traditional Linux community doesn't fully understand us. Linspire's goal is to take Linux to the average, non-technical computer user, so yes, it may not be the distro for you. However, maybe one day you'd like to see your friends, parents, co-workers, etc., who don't have the knowledge or time to fool around with their OS and software, using Linux?

For example, my 14 year old daughter runs Linux. She doesn't care about kernels, KDE's, GNOME's, X's, etc. She wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to install Linux software, add MP3 support, get her DVD's to play, etc. But, with Linspire, all that just works without her doing anything, and if she wants to install new software, she just clicks and it's done. Apt is easy for someone technical, but to 98% of the world, it would be considered very difficult and a mystery.

You have to realize 95% of the world has NEVER installed an OS. They use the OS that comes when they buy a computer. Just like cars, for every auto mechanic that knows how to fix a car, there are 20 "drivers" that know how to drive a car, but don't have a clue how to fix one, nor do they want to learn. Maybe 5% of the population will change the oil in their own car, but the other 95% will pay someone to do that for them. It's worth a few bucks for them to not have to spend hours learning how to do it.

For these average users, you can't expect them to learn ANYTHING, and if you do, they will just run back to their comfort zone...Windows. They just want to USE their computer, not fix it, work on it, tinker with it, etc.

Every distro plays its part. Gentoo is very different from Ubuntu, which is very different from Fedora, which is very different from Linspire. But, Linspire does have a market. YOU may not run it, but maybe your mother, brother, or best friend could?

Kevin

Don't get me wrong, I tried Linspire and it's a very nice product - pigs will just fly be _I_ use it, I like different stuff like the Fedora focus on security and participating in the community around Fedora .. my mother however might enjoy Linspire (disregarding facts such as me being here to admin the box and I like systems I know inside out). Linspire has always been a very impressive product.

Send me a free copy and I'll give it the awesome Mom test - I'll even post the findings on my blog.

[Kevin Carmony]

Send me a free copy and I'll give it the awesome Mom test - I'll even post the findings on my blog.

Happy to. Email me: kevin at linspire dot com.

Kevin

[gabbman]

Good arguments on both sides, and it's arguments that start distro wars and forum flames.

Let Mark Shuttleworth decide--his distro, his call.

Linux is about freedom of choice, so let Mark, Kevin, gabbman, etc have that freedom.

[Marby]

Virtually everyone in this thread is Linux tech oriented to some degree or another. I'm not. It is very unlikely I will ever be. So, out of this list of desktop distros I tried; Knoppix, Debian, Fedora, RedHat, (that's all I can remember), I chose Linspire because it is the most "End User Friendly" I found; plus, Ease Of Use, plus CNR. I most likely would not be using Linux were it not for CNR Technology. But how does this motivate me to post in this Ubuntu forum?
From the Linspire forum:
Cloudy Wizzard wrote:
Fortunatly there is improvement in the Linux community and I hope someday all the linux users will finaly see the light, that we are not fighting each other but we are fighting Microsoft and are trying to bring a great OS for the masses and diffrent people like a diffrent distro, that's why there are so many of them, it's not because one is better for everyone.

Marby wrote
Who wouldn't suggest the idea that perhaps MS might be doing a bit of "divide and conquer." I find it hard to believe that so many "Linux Elitists" can be so ignorant of the rapidly growing number of us "Committed End Users" fed up with proprietary greed and control and wanting and needing the Linux community's involvement to help us migrate from them. Are they fundamentally selfish? That's not my experience with the people in this forum [Lisnprie]---Linspire users or not. So, the few militant ones must have an agenda to try and make all Linux users Linux Geeks or move out; or, they could be MS plants, or more appropriately, moles. Because of Linspire's model, however, I'm here to stay---soon, no more MS for me.

And I mean it, too.! :p

[mstlyevil]

Virtually everyone in this thread is Linux tech oriented to some degree or another. I'm not. It is very unlikely I will ever be. So, out of this list of desktop distros I tried; Knoppix, Debian, Fedora, RedHat, (that's all I can remember), I chose Linspire because it is the most "End User Friendly" I found; plus, Ease Of Use, plus CNR. I most likely would not be using Linux were it not for CNR Technology. But how does this motivate me to post in this Ubuntu forum?
From the Linspire forum:
Cloudy Wizzard wrote:
Fortunatly there is improvement in the Linux community and I hope someday all the linux users will finaly see the light, that we are not fighting each other but we are fighting Microsoft and are trying to bring a great OS for the masses and diffrent people like a diffrent distro, that's why there are so many of them, it's not because one is better for everyone.

Marby wrote
Who wouldn't suggest the idea that perhaps MS might be doing a bit of "divide and conquer." I find it hard to believe that so many "Linux Elitists" can be so ignorant of the rapidly growing number of us "Committed End Users" fed up with proprietary greed and control and wanting and needing the Linux community's involvement to help us migrate from them. Are they fundamentally selfish? That's not my experience with the people in this forum [Lisnprie]---Linspire users or not. So, the few militant ones must have an agenda to try and make all Linux users Linux Geeks or move out; or, they could be MS plants, or more appropriately, moles. Because of Linspire's model, however, I'm here to stay---soon, no more MS for me.

And I mean it, too.! :p

You will find a recurring theme on this forum and that is you should use whatever distro/Operating System that meets your needs. There are a few old skewl Linux users that might see things differently but most members of this forum are more than willing to point newbies to Linspire, Xandros or Mepis. I am glad that Linspire meets your needs and I want to say welcome to the world that is Linux.

[Marby]

You will find a recurring theme on this forum and that is you should use whatever distro/Operating System that meets your needs. There are a few old skewl Linux users that might see things differently but most members of this forum are more than willing to point newbies to Linspire, Xandros or Mepis. I am glad that Linspire meets your needs and I want to say welcome to the world that is Linux.
Thanks you, mstlyevil,
I agree with you fully. I was addressing anyone who seems to think it is necessary to do battle for their own views; although, such ones are actually few. There are many who maintain erroneous understandings of what Linspire and other desktop distros (such as ubuntu) represents for the "Commited End User" community as opposed to the committed Linux Geeks community. Such ones seem not too willing to re-investigate to correct their views of the Linspire model regarding this. Rather they persist in trying to aggravate others toward end-user distros that make it possible for us to use Linux, pushing their own agenda. It's sad that they are missing out on such a fine opportunity. We in the End User Community are sincerely grateful to you for providing us these alternatives to greedy opportunists.

[Michael_Valentine]

Ubuntu should show it's support! Unity among Linux and it's users is very important IMHO. It always amazes me when I see the infighting about my Distro is better tha yours. It's Linux, just a different flavor. Choice is good for everyone! :)

[CaptainTux]

Gabberman,

I agree. Arguments tend to lead to flame wars and distro wars. Overall, this has been a very healthy exchange.

I do not always agree with some of the stances Shuttleworth takes, but for that matter, I do not always agree with RMS, David Sugar, Marcel Gagne, Linus Torvalds, and many others. Heck, sometimes I lie in the fetal position contradicting myself.

I have been to many of these trade shows. Mostly Linux World. I gotta tell ya, smaller ones like DLS are wonderful opportunities. The lower price points allow for a different breed of user to enter, and for smaller companies and free as in free beer offerings to afford entry.

The smaller conventions also allow for a more intimate interaction between the speakers and the audience on the floor.

I am going to be there. I am one of the speakers. I would love to interact with Shuttleworth and hear him speak specifically on the shortcomings, hurdles, and future of Linux on the desktop and Ubuntu on the desktop.

Agree or disagree with the man, it would be an engaging presentation and the more intimate setting may allow for an opportunity to converse with him and debate with him.

The amazing thing about DLS is the interaction. Kevin Carmony is as engaging with the masses on the trade floor as he is on the forums. The same is true of Micheal Robertson. This, I am sure will also be the case with Nat and Ian and many of the other speakers that will be in attendance there.

I am not one to presume any individual should or should not do anything(though I did vote he should attend). I merely feel that Mr Shuttleworth's presence would be an asset to the spirit of the summit and I think having him in the same room as Ian and members of the DCCA would provide for an interesting variety in perspectives.

I feel that open source is like a good waldorf salad. Every ingredient adds to the whole of the flavor, but unlike a melting pot, each ingredient maintains its own unique flavor.

[Lunixfanboy]

To quote RMS: "Although the basic GNU/Linux system is free software, most of the GNU/Linux versions now available include a small amount of non-free software--just enough to spoil them as a way to attain freedom. But Linspire is in a class by itself; large and important parts of this system are non-free. No other GNU/Linux distribution has backslided so far away from freedom. Switching from MS Windows to Linspire does not bring you to freedom, it just gets you a different master."

[Lovechild]

Good arguments on both sides, and it's arguments that start distro wars and forum flames.

Let Mark Shuttleworth decide--his distro, his call.

Linux is about freedom of choice, so let Mark, Kevin, gabbman, etc have that freedom.

Where is this idea that this is "Mark' distro" comes from, the distro has been handed over to the Foundation and Mark is not the dictator for life - that is why we have a community counsil and a great community.
If anything this is the users distro - Mark is merely being a very nice guy when it comes to paying the bills, but he is by now means the ultimate power within the Ubunut universe, as much as we like him and all.

[CaptainTux]

RMS has also said, "Sun contributed OpenOffice, which is very
important, but it also encourages people to use the non-free Java
platform.

I think that we should judge and comment separately on each activity
of such companies, rather than trying to add them up to make some
total evaluation of the company. We should thank them for what they
do that contributes to freedom, and criticize when they trample
freedom."

My question is...so?

With all due respect, a greater divide than vi and emacs is free software and open source software. The free software side sees it as a moral imperative and the open source side sees it as a valid license alternative.

I have respect for RMS and the FSF. Heck, I put my money where my mouth is. I am a dues paying member to the organization. I also feel that Debian is an important distro with its freedom oriented mission statements. These wonderful tools have been used in proprietary operating systems for decades. C compiler is the first example that comes to mind.

Linspire is a proprietary operating system with a family license as opposed to a GPL or LGPL. I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with OpenOffice being a gateway drug to that there non-free Java.

[cmk]

Where is this idea that this is "Mark' distro" comes from.
Probably from the same place that the perception that the DLS is "wankatron for Linspire" comes from.

Ubuntu can help disspell the notion that it is "Mark's distro" while furthuring Destop Linux in general, by attending "The Linspire Show" :mrgreen:

[Marby]

To quote RMS: "Although the basic GNU/Linux system is free software, most of the GNU/Linux versions now available include a small amount of non-free software--just enough to spoil them as a way to attain freedom. But Linspire is in a class by itself; large and important parts of this system are non-free. No other GNU/Linux distribution has backslided so far away from freedom. Switching from MS Windows to Linspire does not bring you to freedom, it just gets you a different master."
Hi Again, Linuxfanboy,
I'm wondering, Linuxfanboy, do you go to doctors? If you do, why do you? Perhaps you might have similar skills and knowledge that a doctor would have. If so, you may not need one. If you don't have such knowledge, then you may need medical services. Do you then pay the medical community for their services? That's what Linspire, and several other Linux distros, offer as a service to us non-geeks who want to upgrade to Linux.

You singled out Linspire. There's hardly anything in CNR you yourself can't get somewhere else; and, that's because you know how to make it work. I don't know how to, and I don't care to know. I pay for such valuable-to-me services---Linspire and CNR Technology---so that I can advance to the level of a Linux user. Why do you and others propagate the lie that such ones as myself are paying for "FREE" software? Why do you fault Linspire for providing a service that makes it possible for my to use Linux? and by extension, fault me for using that service? Is your vision, and/or that of some few others, of the Linux community so narrow that it can't include me? that it can't include worthy services which Linspire and CNR provide for me? and at a way more than reasonable price in comparison to the Greedy control freaks of the proprietary software community?

[CaptainTux]

Well said, Marby. Do not take the comments too much to heart though.

Some see free software as a moral imperitive. Others see open source as a valid licensing mechanism.

Social revolution or development model.

I respect the FSF and the people who hold to and live by the ideals of RMS and company. I respectfully disagree with the moral imperative facet.

You have to understand, anything that is nor free (as in free speech) to a FSF idealist, makes one a bad citizen or a slave to a master.

It is a different perspective and different ideology than you have. The best you can do is let those that feel that have have their say, nod respectfully, and hold your head high with the choices you have made. You are a free thinker and you have made an educated choice, this is obvious from your post. You are an asset to the new face of FOSS.

[Marby]

Well said, Marby. Do not take the comments too much to heart though.

Some see free software as a moral imperitive. Others see open source as a valid licensing mechanism.

Social revolution or development model.

I respect the FSF and the people who hold to and live by the ideals of RMS and company. I respectfully disagree with the moral imperative facet.

You have to understand, anything that is nor free (as in free speech) to a FSF idealist, makes one a bad citizen or a slave to a master.

It is a different perspective and different ideology than you have. The best you can do is let those that feel that have have their say, nod respectfully, and hold your head high with the choices you have made. You are a free thinker and you have made an educated choice, this is obvious from your post. You are an asset to the new face of FOSS.

Thanks, Cap.
Also, thanks for the added incite to FSF posture. My hope is that there will be enough of them willing to be receptive and willing to understand more fully this side of the Linux world which is growing leaps and bounds. Wouldn't the turf wars wain some if they could grasp our--desktop end-users--position? I'm not so sure Mark is attuned to us, which is to some degree why he is posturing himself that way. He is very influential and could actively be an asset in promoting more acceptance to the position of us desktop end-users. Ubuntu is engaged in that, which makes it seem contradictory for Mark to hold back.

[Lunixfanboy]

Hi Again, Linuxfanboy,
<snip>
You singled out Linspire. There's hardly anything in CNR you yourself can't get somewhere else; and, that's because you know how to make it work. I don't know how to, and I don't care to know. I pay for such valuable-to-me services---Linspire and CNR Technology---so that I can advance to the level of a Linux user. Why do you and others propagate the lie that such ones as myself are paying for "FREE" software? Why do you fault Linspire for providing a service that makes it possible for my to use Linux? and by extension, fault me for using that service? Is your vision, and/or that of some few others, of the Linux community so narrow that it can't include me? that it can't include worthy services which Linspire and CNR provide for me? and at a way more than reasonable price in comparison to the Greedy control freaks of the proprietary software community?First, nym is LUNIXfanboy, as in Little UNIX, a variant of *nix for the C64. Second, WHERE did I say anything about you and your paying for free software? I quoted RMS about your trading one master; Microsoft, for another; LOS, Inc. RMS himself has said it was perfectly legit to grab copies of Utotu, burn them off, and sell them (Utotu is Argentinian distro, not misspelling of Ubuntu).

[CaptainTux]

You are welcome. I think there will be an end to the vi/emacs and kde/gnome debate before you see a real bridge between FSF folk and OSI folk. Remember, pretty much anything that is not released under the GPL or a GPL compatible license is not free to an FSF'er. That lack of freedom is considered to be a social restriction and is bad.

Some license models accepted by the OSI are NOT accepted by the FSF. That is fine. To be honest, I do not know what side of that fence Mr Shuttleworth resides on. I assume from his history and the direction of Ubuntu, he leans towards the FSF yard.

I have always felt that Mr Shuttleworth and MR are two sides of the same coin. Both are wealthy with bank accounts running in the hundreds of millions, both are very opinionated and outspoken, both support Linux.

Before you are too hard on Mr Shuttleworth, you may want to study up on him. There was a great interview with him in Linux Format Magazine a few issues back and there is no shortage of hits on him in most search engines.

I am usually quite vocal in my disagreements with some of his positions, but I am a guest in this here forum and just as we do not like Linspire bashers in our forum, I am sure that another Ubuntu or Shuttleworth basher would just generate a few eye rolls.

We are all supporting Linux and we are all supporting FOSS in our own way. At the end of the day, that is what matters. For me, I only have two problems.

1. I would love to have heard his perspectives and thoughts in person regarding desktop Linux and Ubuntu's role in it.

2. I think the "Why attend the Linspire Show" is a bit judgmental.

As I have said before. I do not always agree with Stallman, Torvalds, Roberson, Shuttleworth, and others, but it is always interesting to hear what they have to say. I would have liked to have heard him speak. I think the loss is ours for not getting to hear it and his for missing a wonderful opportunity to share his vision,a nd Ubuntu's loss for not having a representative for one of the better desktop distros in a desktop based event.

[CaptainTux]

Lunixfanboy,

Do you use passwords? In Revolution OS, RMS eloquently explains why the use of passwords is a societal separation and advocates using enter for your password. ;) Man, no passwords, no Linspire....OOo is a gateway to the evil and locked down java.....;)

[Michael_Valentine]

I guess if RMS says jump of a cliff some will follow. ;) Great guy, but to far left or is it right for me. It's about choice, not what someone thinks is right or wrong. Make your own decision by trying a combination of the many hundrets of Linux Distros available to you and use the one that works for you. Heck use MS if that's what works, but don't tell someone his choice is wrong or bad because someone says it is. By the way my Commodore (SX-64)is still running strong as well. :)

[Michael_Valentine]

I guess if RMS says jump of a cliff some will follow. ;) Great guy, but to far left or is it right for me. It's about choice, not what someone thinks is right or wrong. Make your own decision by trying a combination of the many hundrets of Linux Distros available to you and use the one that works for you. Heck use MS if that's what works, but don't tell someone his choice is wrong or bad because someone says it is. By the way my Commodore (SX-64)is still running strong as well. :)

[CaptainTux]

RMS is a genius, there is no doubt about that. He advocates questioning of leaders and the norm. He claims no belief in a deity and has been quoted as saying there is no absolute truth...so, at the end of the day, even he cannot confirm that his definition of right and wrong is an absolute truth. :D

It is hard to quote someone like Stallman. It is hard to quote or model anyone. At the point you do that, it becomes difficult to disagree with them, question them, or realize they bleed red as well.

[poofyhairguy]

The main goal of the show is NOT about marketing. It's about EDUCATION. 95% of computer users don't have a clue what Linux is. Go to a computer store, talk to the families and people shopping for a computer, and ask them, you'll see. DLS helps to educate the media, governments, businesses, educators, and consumres that Linux IS in fact an option they should consider for their desktops.


Fair enough Kevin. Its about educational goals. Just like Edubuntu.

[Kernel Sanders]

I'm just encouraged that such a summit exists!

Tell me, at this summit, do they discuss the direction that they wish Linux to take? Or do they just showcase their different GUI's? (Is that the difference between distro's? GUI's and a bit of tweaking?)

Many Thanks,

John

[CaptainTux]

I'm just encouraged that such a summit exists!

Tell me, at this summit, do they discuss the direction that they wish Linux to take? Or do they just showcase their different GUI's? (Is that the difference between distro's? GUI's and a bit of tweaking?)

Many Thanks,

John

John,

I want to answer your question on distros first. On the surface, there is quite a bit of look and feel. Then you also have packagemanagement and how you install software. Some distros offer commercial support. Some offer stability and others offer bleeding edge for those who like to crash their systems (I have a test box and I am one day want a distro to make it literally explode just to say it happened). Some distros are geard towards new people coming from a MS background, some are made for businesses, some are made for schools, some are made for servers, etc. Distro variances range far beyond look and feel, but it is the easiest thing to identify.

Now, as far as the summit. When you go to a booth, it is all about showcasing what you have. The speakers is where the meat and potatoes is, IMHO. This is where someone will not only talk about what thier company is doing, but they will discuss very candidly the direction they feel desktop Linux in general is going. I will be speaking this year. I do not work for a distro maker, nor am I a distro creator. I find the best solution that meets my clients. I will be speaking very candidly. Some people will like what I have to say and others will not. I have already tested my presentation at a computer club and I will soon be giving it at a University. So far the response has what I wanted. Some liked it, some hated it..no one ignored it.

This is a time to interact with the Linux community and the FOSS curious in one event so you have to speak on many levels. If you attend, I think you will hear many fascinating perspectives that have NOTHING to do with Linspire..

[Kernel Sanders]

Thanks for your insight CaptainTux!

Although I dont know that much about Ubuntu and Linux in general at this stage, but as a total noob (who has only messed around with the Ubuntu Live CD at this point), my opinion is that linux distro's should do a little more work on the GUI.

I think there is 2 factors keeping Bill Gates in his billions and windows on top:
1) the fact that the latest version of windows is installed on almost all new computers before it is shipped
2) the fact that windows is so bloody easy to use!

Now market share is the only thing that will help combat problem 1, but if the Linux developers found a way to make Linux easy, (i'm aware of linspire and PCLinux, but thats not what I mean) things like double click installs, network wizards instead of manual configuration etc, then the noob (like myself) would find the jump to Linux a much less daunting step? Therefore, IMHO, more people would make the "jump" which, over time, would solve problem 1!

Anyway, whatever happens, its patently obvious that MS is going down! Its impossible for Microsoft to maintain its artificially high market share indefinately..... its a given that the market will "level out" at some point, so that the OS's are more equal, its just a question of when?

Anyway....... thats just my opinion, dont really take too much notice, i'm probably wrong, and I am a NOOB after all! LOL :D

All the best!

John

[CaptainTux]

Actually John, with Linspire you do have one click install with Linspire customer support for third party applications through the Click and Run system. There is no compiling or command line there.

Also, and I am not saying you have to, but once you learn about synaptic and apt-get...installing is nowhere near as hard as it was say....two or three years ago.

If you are serious about this journey....I would recommend 3 books in the order I am about to give them.

Marcel Gagne's Moving to Linux: Kiss the Blue Screen of Death Goodbye (second edition)

Peter Van der Linden's : Peter Van der Linden's Guide to Linux.

Robin Miller's Point and Click Linux.

All three are fine books. Marcel and Peter's run neck and neck for quality. Robin's trails a bit behind, but he has some great chapters on installing software.

Moving to Linux is Knoppix based, Guide to Linux is Linspire based, and Point and Click is Mepis based.

In a few months, Marcel Gagne will be releasing a Moving to Ubuntu Linux, which will likely be the first quality Linux newbie book for those who like the GNOME gui.

I agree that the best way to get any OS is to have it preinstalled on a computer. You can buy preinstalled Linspire computers at Fry's, TigerDirect, gigabytesnetwork, and many other places in North America.

I disagree that Windows is easy to use. Studies have proved it to be counter intuitive in many regards. Do not confuse more drivers and more software with ease of use. You have likely been using Windows in the office so long that you have learned it from exposure.

I stopped using MS in 1995 when I first saw Windows 95. I bought an OS2 machine as soon as I could and then was all Mac after that.

IMHO opinion, Apple still is the easiest to use, I would put distros like Linspire and NLD and Ubuntu as not as easy as Mac, but easier than windows. See, with my limited exposure to Windows, the counter intuitive aspects glare at me. My five year old is a great BETA tester. Since she was 2 I could slap her in front of a MAC with no issue...a Linspire machine with few, and a Windows 200 partition I have for certain games always ends up with her asking several questions and frustrations. Why? It is counter intuitive.

BTW, try installing Windows sometime. I can install Ubuntu or Linspire or Mepis in under 20 minutes....takes me about 2 hours with Windows.

[Kevin Carmony]

What makes open source and Linux great, is in encourages MORE options and choices. I don't see a future where we go from one monopoly (MS) to another (Linspire or anyone else for that matter). I use proprietary things every day of my life and I don't worry about it becoming a monopoly. The OS in my automobile is proprietary, and I don't worry that Ford, GM, Toyota, etc. will take over the automobile business because of it.

The irony is that RMS feels that true freedom means NOT having the freedom to CHOOSE to give up some of that freedom. (That warps my mind a bit.) For example, if I go in for an operation, and I let the doc. put me under, I'm certainly CHOOSING to give up a FREEDOM (being awake and fully in control) to someone I trust. The key is TRUST. You need to TRUST that person before you turn over some of those freedoms to them. However, we all do it every day. If you ever eat out, you are turning over some of your freedom (the right to cook your own meal) to a restaurant because you TRUST that they aren't going to poison you. If you use a babysitter, you turn over a great deal of trust to them, your children! When you let your dentist work on your teeth, you trust him with that right. If you use an email service, you TRUST them to not abuse your sensative data. And on and on... TRUSTING good people and good companies makes our lives better!

So, you see, I would say *I* believe that I am more a believer in freedom than RMS, because I believe in TOTAL freedom, including the freedom to CHOOSE to TRUST someone. RMS's form of freedom RESTRICTS you from having that choice. Ironic I think.

Microsoft has scared some from ever trusting ANY software company. That's unfortunate, because a free market system can deliver great things to the software community, including the open source community.

If anyone is interested, here is my public blog (http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=11) on why I think "Free" software isn't always a good thing.

Kevin

[gabbman]

Gabbman,

I agree. Arguments tend to lead to flame wars and distro wars. Overall, this has been a very healthy exchange.

I do not always agree with some of the stances Shuttleworth takes, but for that matter, I do not always agree with RMS, David Sugar, Marcel Gagne, Linus Torvalds, and many others. Heck, sometimes I lie in the fetal position contradicting myself.

I have been to many of these trade shows. Mostly Linux World. I gotta tell ya, smaller ones like DLS are wonderful opportunities. The lower price points allow for a different breed of user to enter, and for smaller companies and free as in free beer offerings to afford entry.

The smaller conventions also allow for a more intimate interaction between the speakers and the audience on the floor.

I am going to be there. I am one of the speakers. I would love to interact with Shuttleworth and hear him speak specifically on the shortcomings, hurdles, and future of Linux on the desktop and Ubuntu on the desktop.

Agree or disagree with the man, it would be an engaging presentation and the more intimate setting may allow for an opportunity to converse with him and debate with him.

The amazing thing about DLS is the interaction. Kevin Carmony is as engaging with the masses on the trade floor as he is on the forums. The same is true of Micheal Robertson. This, I am sure will also be the case with Nat and Ian and many of the other speakers that will be in attendance there.

I am not one to presume any individual should or should not do anything(though I did vote he should attend). I merely feel that Mr Shuttleworth's presence would be an asset to the spirit of the summit and I think having him in the same room as Ian and members of the DCCA would provide for an interesting variety in perspectives.

I feel that open source is like a good waldorf salad. Every ingredient adds to the whole of the flavor, but unlike a melting pot, each ingredient maintains its own unique flavor.
All good and well, but has nothing to do with Mr. Shuttlesworth having the ability to come to his own conclusion of wheather or not to participate. Argue as we may, he gets the last call on his own desires, needs and wants.

If it were me in his position (and that's a stretch) I'm just stubborn enough to take a trip to the Figi islands on that date with my cell phone turned off just to avoid the hounding. Kevin presented the strongest reason's why it would be good to have him attend in his personal phone call to Mark, IMHO public pestering won't improve on those arguments.

I'd like to be wrong as I feel the more the merrier and the stronger the trade show will be, I just think you catch more bee's with honey.

[CaptainTux]

There is a poll and engaging discussion. Many people from many sides and views are having a respectful discourse. \\:D/

[PenguinMan]

I think Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Edubuntu should attend the Desktop Linux Summit 2006, so they can be there to represent their distributions to the many people that will be in attendance. In my opinion, it is quite important for all Linux users to show a united front for desktop Linux.

Linux, to me, is like ice cream... There are many flavors of ice cream, and I certainly do have my own personal preferences. That is expected as I do not like every kind of ice cream, but I will not go bashing other flavors of ice cream just because I do not like those particular flavors. I may say I don't like a certain flavor of ice cream, but that is just my personal opinion. That's all... I still think other flavors of ice cream have a God-given right to exist. Stupid analogy, but it works... hehehe

With that in mind, I use Linspire daily but I am also using PCLinuxOS and Ubuntu/Kubuntu. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses. Since I am a power computer user and geek at heart, I don't exactly fit the audience that Linspire is aimed at, but I do not care because I love their CNR Gold Service. I also love what Texstar is doing with PCLinuxOS - he amazes me with his talents. Lastly, Ubuntu/Kubuntu is pretty cool too and I am liking both of them with each successive release.

I think this community should have a free booth at the DLS 2006 to give away many Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Edubuntu CD-ROMs. This is only going to help desktop Linux in the long run. If the DLS was a Linspire-only show, then why do Novell and Redhat have the top sponsorships of the event? From what I can tell Linspire is taking the low profile, which is what it should do.

[CaptainTux]

Why should anyone get a free booth? Redhat paid, I paid...and I ain't redhat...nor do I have Shuttleworth's bankroll. ;)

[mstlyevil]

Why should anyone get a free booth? Redhat paid, I paid...and I ain't redhat...nor do I have Shuttleworth's bankroll. ;)

Kevin already stated Community driven projects like Ubuntu get a free booth by default. He offered it to MS and was declined.

[CaptainTux]

Kevin already stated Community driven projects like Ubuntu get a free booth by default. He offered it to MS and was declined.
I know, hence the winky face thingy. :)

Sorry, my wit takes some getting used to. I am funny...at least my friends pretend to be amused......hm.......

[CaptainTux]

*mumbles to self*
learn to be funny...a blonde, a priest, and a duck walk into a bar...no...wait....ah...nevermind.....

[mstlyevil]

I know, hence the winky face thingy. :)

Sorry, my wit takes some getting used to. I am funny...at least my friends pretend to be amused......hm.......

I just did not catch the humor. It is sometimes hard to tell if someone is serious or not when reading a thread. :mrgreen:

[PenguinMan]

Kevin already stated Community driven projects like Ubuntu get a free booth by default. He offered it to MS and was declined. If MS refused it that is OK. The users in the forums can get together and do it themselves. Where there is a will, there is a way. :D

[David Valentine]

a blonde, a priest, and a duck walk into a barAnd the bartender says "is this some kind of joke?" :D

I'm glad that there have been so many thoughtful responses about the DLS on all sides. As a recent Linux convert, I think folks who are potentially interested in Linux need to see examples of it being used successfully by everyday people doing everyday things. Failing that, they need to see credible evidence that such is happening, and the publicity DLS could generate could only help.

[Marby]

First, nym is LUNIXfanboy, as in Little UNIX, a variant of *nix for the C64.
I don't understand what this is all about. I'm not sure how to address you now. What is the name you go by?

Second, WHERE did I say anything about you and your paying for free software? I quoted RMS about your trading one master; Microsoft, for another; LOS, Inc. RMS himself has said it was perfectly legit to grab copies of Utotu, burn them off, and sell them (Utotu is Argentinian distro, not misspelling of Ubuntu).
How Did I Miss That. Just Plain Not Paying Attention. :shock: :oops: That's what I get for being in too big a hurry. After all, you've made some very good, on topic, reasonably sensible comments. Sorry. So, then, it is RMS who made that erroneous comment. :)

[Kendall]

I had some video footage from some of the speakers from last year's Desktop Linux Summit and I uploaded them to Google Video:

Mitch Kapor from Mozilla Foundation
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2612377241766176124

Doc Searls from Linux Journal
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1280444676485910939

Rob Lanphier from Real Networks (Helix Community)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8876515954483523694

Simon Phipps from Sun Microsystems
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2300192195804013955

Ted Hager from Novell
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2651325156755891232

There is a very diverse group of people and vendors and speakers who attend the Desktop Linux Summit (DLS). Last year OpenOffice.org held a show in conjunction with the DLS and there were a lot of great speakers. Mitch Kapor's speech was very insightful and I enjoyed hearing what he had to say. Someday I'd love to hear Mark Shuttleworth give a speech at the Summit. There are a lot of people from the educational community who show up to learn more about Linux and I'm sure they'd love to learn more about Edubuntu and Ubuntu.

Kendall

[Kevin Carmony]

Kevin presented the strongest reason's why it would be good to have him attend in his personal phone call to Mark, IMHO public pestering won't improve on those arguments. I'd like to be wrong as I feel the more the merrier and the stronger the trade show will be, I just think you catch more bee's with honey.

If you read my Linspire Letter carefully, you will see (at least I hope you will =) that my intention was NOT at all to "call Mark out" for not being at the show. The intention of the Linspire Letter was to address the misunderstandings that MANY may have about DLS. I simply used the intro about my conversation with Mark as a way to demonstrate that in fact many do have a misunderstanding, and I then proceeded to try and explain the facts about the show.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

FYI...

Ubuntu has signed on as a Gold sponsor (http://desktoplinuxsummit.com/sponsors.php) for this year's Desktop Linux Summit (http://desktoplinuxsummit.com).

I don't know yet who Ubuntu will be sending to speak and participate, so I can't say if Mark will be attending, but regardless, we're just thrilled to have Ubuntu join Red Hat, Novell, Linspire and others in this important show.

I hope some of you can attend, and if so, I'd enjoy meeting and saying hi.

Thanks,

Kevin

PS: I tried to make a new post for this news, but the forum just kept hanging here when I tried to do that. Maybe they've revoked my posting privileges. =)

[mstlyevil]

FYI...

Ubuntu has signed on as a Gold sponsor (http://desktoplinuxsummit.com/sponsors.php) for this year's Desktop Linux Summit (http://desktoplinuxsummit.com).

I don't know yet who Ubuntu will be sending to speak and participate, so I can't say if Mark will be attending, but regardless, we're just thrilled to have Ubuntu join Red Hat, Novell, Linspire and others in this important show.

I hope some of you can attend, and if so, I'd enjoy meeting and saying hi.

Thanks,

Kevin

PS: I tried to make a new post for this news, but the forum just kept hanging here when I tried to do that. Maybe they've revoked my posting privileges. =)

Thanks for the information Kevin.

The forums are going through the process of being upgraded so things are still a little buggy at the moment. Ubuntu Geek is hard at work to fix these issues.