positive socio-religious engineering!

[darkfox]

I'm relatively new to Ubuntu, so please pardon me if the views I express here are old and worn:

I came to Ubuntu for technical reasons, and have been very impressed on that level. It is my main desktop now. However, I've been more impressed with how Ubuntu and the community are really going for the big one - trying to bring folk together in a spirit of hope and co-operation. Startling if you think about it even in FOSS-world, yet so simply executed. I thank you all for the good vibe.

I am particularly interested in what's been happening on the religious front - the most sensitive of areas. I write this now becasue from a newbie's perspective, I think something good has come out of all the ridiculousness over the excellent Warty artwork. I'll explain via a slight digression:

In the Ottoman empire, religious diversity was celebrated. There was federal law, and another law per religion based upon its tenets. So in practice depending on your religion you were legally bound by a different set of rules to those of your neighbour. It is a contended view, but the main line is that this led to tolerance and freedom based on a celebration of differing beliefs.

Contrast this with modern-day in my country - UK. Social pressure to not highlight religious differences is now being backed up with legislation. Children must not wear religious clothing to schools. We are trying to make everyone seem the same, and hide those beliefs that are different from others. This is tangibly breeding fear and hatred. How bland, colourless and repressive.

In the forums I frequently notice signatures containing religious sentiment. I found myself at first bristling at this - as a pagan I rarely see my views represented, and to be told other peoples beliefs as though they were fact (Christ died for you, etc.) I saw as a personal attack. However, I remembered the Ottoman Empire and realised how totally, totally cool it is that here we express ourselves in that way and it only adds colour. It is very liberating. I feel that this is a change recently, and may in part be a positive reation to the fear-based niggles of a minority regarding the afore-mentioned artwork.

It is amazing that we've reached this place. Ubuntu it seems to me is shining a light on a dull fetid world in many more ways than just techncially. Where I live snowdrops have appeared - the first sign of the returning year. This seems fitting to me.

[BWF89]

When you said "religious" I thought you ment the religion of GNU/Linux and free software. Lol...

[az]

"When you said "religious" I thought you ment the religion of GNU/Linux and free software. Lol..."

Well, there is a church of Emacs...

Seriously.

But the statement "Christ died for you" is kinda "in-your-face." I mean, you don't see a Buddhist showing an "I feel more compassion before 5 AM than you feel all day" pamplet, do you?

[TravisNewman]

Yeah I wonder how some people would react to someone with a sig saying
"Christ didn't die for me," or "Born ok the first time." Anyone who complained about it would be a bit hypocritical wouldn't they? Expressing religious beliefs isn't a one way street. Anyway...

The one that really used to get me, and this isn't meant to be offensive, is the one about Nietchze saying "God is dead" and God saying "Nietzche is dead." (also, sorry about my spelling of his name, I took 2 years of philosophy and 1 year of religion and I can never remember how to spell it). Even one of my very Christian friends hates this one, because he wasn't saying that God is literally dead, he was talking about the mystic feelings people used to have about God, and the fact that the people had left God behind in ways. And this is true. But then I realized that most people probably don't really know Nietchze's philosophy. They just know the quotes that some people posted on their LiveJournal or something. Nietzche's quote out of context would be offensive to most Christians, but in context is almost encouraging and challenging for Christians to live a more fulfilling life in Christ.

No, I'm not Christian, not really atheist, not really agnostic, I don't really know what I am. But I believe strongly in religious freedom.

Anyway, I digress.

I agree. I think it's fantastic that people can express anything they want. I mean, I as a moderator would get involved if there was a sig that said "All <insert religion here> should die and burn in hell!" but as long as there aren't any hate-mongering sigs, and as long as people aren't harassing others about their religion, we're good, and we have a happy and religiously-free community.

And azz, I want to make that pamphlet :) Seriously, Buddhism is one of the most respectable religions in the world. No way I could ever have that kind of dedication.

[mark]

While I don't know about "socio-religious engineering" (I'm a simple guy, after all), I do wonder about the other Nietzsche quote:
The last Christian died upon the cross... There are times (and circumstances) these days when I think ol' Freddie might have had something there...

[EdCrypt]

My old signature was something like "Nihilism's Home Page - Exiting The Circus Of Values", with a link to counterorder.com, but i changed it, not cause my mind have changed, but because i think that it's not apropriated to this forum and to avoid a "nihilist preacher" image. But no one in the forum tell me to change nothing.
When the France government ruled about the crosses in the scholls or something like that, I really appreciated as a pro-Laicism atitude, but I was all for the freedom of religion and the freedom to use the **** you want to use in your body. Today I not sure if I'm think that something should or shouldn't be done, I really don't care :P
Actually, I'm atheist and nihilist (different from must atheists that I know, the majority humanists)

[TravisNewman]

Yeah I think people should be able to wear crosses in school, same as I think that people should be able to wear pentagrams. It's when the school puts the 10 commandments in the hallway that problems start.

BTW, thanks darkfox for this enlightening thread! Hopefully it doesn't turn into a flame war. All too often interesting discussion that also happens to be controversial turns into a flame war because people can't keep their tempers down.

[jdodson]

Yeah I think people should be able to wear crosses in school, same as I think that people should be able to wear pentagrams. It's when the school puts the 10 commandments in the hallway that problems start.

BTW, thanks darkfox for this enlightening thread! Hopefully it doesn't turn into a flame war. All too often interesting discussion that also happens to be controversial turns into a flame war because people can't keep their tempers down.

ya i agree i think this is a good discussion. i really enjoy benificial discussion. well anyways, i am a christian..... not really sure why i mentioned that.... oh right, cause we were all saying what we believe:) anyways, i am not a "conservative christian" which means that i don't ascribe to MANY mainlines united states conservative christian beliefs. i would go into it, but it is a long sordid ordeal, suffice it to say i am totally fine with people being gay and being married, and many other very non-conservative christian beliefs. many would say that sends me to hell, i think it makes me more loving. but that is just me.... and my wife, she thinks so too(that i am loving that is, or at least i try to be) :-P

anyways, i think it is cool that the creator of this thread came to the conclusion he/she did. in the end people need to express themselves. weather they are muslim, black, gay or gnu/linux ubuntu lover.

oh and i come from more of a materialist philosophy. i guess what that means is that i don't agree with sting when he says "we are spirits in the material world." that sting ideology is a pretty platonic view that we are just spirits in a shell of a body and that our bodies are bad. i think are bodies are good, however we can do bad things in them. it seems to be pretty popular in christian circles(that i live around) to believe that if you have a problem, for instance depression, that all you have to do is pray about it and god will whip out his wand and make you all better. i actually think that you have to change your mind or the chemicals in your mind, because it is the "material" you are made out of. not that prayer doesnt work, i just dont think it is the "cure all" it is made out to be. anyways, so i am materialist.... not sure what that means to anyone though... i am going to stop rambling.....

good thread though, not sure how i added anything. :wink:

[TravisNewman]

I love your kind of Christian jdodson! :)

And no, even in Christian doctrine, I don't think any of that means you'll go to hell. Even when I was Christian, I didn't believe in Hell. I thought, even at like age 8 or so, if God loves everyone and loves them, why would he send us to hell if we sin and don't ask him for forgiveness before we die? You covet your neighbors car right before another guy going down the road hits you and kills you and you missed your chance to ask for forgiveness? Oops, you missed your chance. Even in my mind at 8, I thought "that can't be right," and I clearly remember thinking "If God is like that then I don't want to worship him anymore." I was thrilled when I found out that the Bible wasn't hard fact and that it was open to interpretation, and I could fill in the spaces with my own beliefs. My own beliefs ended up being less and less Christian.

[poofyhairguy]

Contrast this with modern-day in my country - UK. Social pressure to not highlight religious differences is now being backed up with legislation. Children must not wear religious clothing to schools. We are trying to make everyone seem the same, and hide those beliefs that are different from others.

I like how on this forum I'm not an American. I'm a person who likes Ubuntu!

The world community built around OSS proves that many barriers are exist only because of sillyness.

[TravisNewman]

sillyness, fear, and social stigma. You could be afraid of Muslims and be internet buddies with a Muslim and never know it. It's ridiculous how caught up in ourselves we are in the real world-- but somehow not so much on "the net." I'd like to see an anthropological culture study of online communities.

[JeffS]

Nice thread.

I think a couple of things that FOSS/Linux/Ubuntu promotes are both tolerance and community. The whole community spirit around FOSS/Linux/Ubuntu does not care what religious/racial/national background you come from. And it encourages you to participate and contribute in you own way.

As for me, I grew up in a moderate Christian household, and went to church and sunday school regularily. But then my parents got fed up with the ways of their old church and started looking around at other churches, typically of the more liberal or open-minded variety. Along the way I never had religion fourced down my throat by my parents, and I intuitively and logically knew that there was no one "right" way and the Bible and other religious texts were open for interpetation. Through my late teens until about age 21, I went through an atheist/agnostic phase. Then I was introduced to some of the Eastern religions/philosophies like Hiduism, Buddhism and Taoism, and a lot of it made sense to me and I was also able to see similarities between them and what Jesus taught. So I came back to religion, in a spritual and philosophical sense. Now I don't subscribe to any particular religion, but I have a belief in a supreme being or beings, and I believe that our bodies are more than a bag of bones and organs - we have a "soul" that continues on, be it nirvana, heavan, purgatory, reincarnation. And I like to derive from both western and eastern religion/philosophy.

Anyway, this has been a very interesting discussion. :grin:

[EdCrypt]

Yeah I think people should be able to wear crosses in school, same as I think that people should be able to wear pentagrams. It's when the school puts the 10 commandments in the hallway that problems start.


I was talking about crosses in the schools walls, but your point is fine to me.