Most Powerful Scientific Calculator

[Lysander10]

Greetings,

I'm a computer science student. As the title of this thread suggests, I'm looking for the most powerful(in terms of the criteria listed below) scientific calculator. Graphing calculators are not allowed on many of my tests, so that's out(and I already have an HP 50g). Also, please don't respond with something like "pencil and paper" - that isn't an acceptable solution for advanced mathematics-based courses where tests are timed and graded on a curve. When you have to be competitive, this kind of thing really matters.

Here are the criteria I'm looking for(in no particular order):

- multi-variable equation solver
- derivatives and integrals
- a lot of memory for storing values and expressions
- boolean algebra and base-n number systems
- RPN input(or failing that, something like Equation Editor)
- large constants, conversions, and equations library
- numeric table generation and simulation
- high precision and large operations stack
- handles matrices well
- advanced statistics functions are a plus, but not as important

Here are the kinds of courses I have left to take:

- Physics 1 and 2
- Calculus 2 and 3
- Matrix Algebra
- a lot of computer science and engineering courses
- possible more math courses - I may minor in math

The best calculator I've found so far is the Sharp EL-W516, followed closely by the Casio fx-115ES. The ideal calculator would be the Sharp, with the table generation of the Casio, and RPN input.

Programmable calculators are kind of a grey area(unfortunately). I have no desire to cheat, and I'm not sure if many professors would allow these who don't allow graphing calculators.

Things I'm not concerned about:

- easy to learn(not the same thing as efficiency!)
- whether my instructor knows how to use it

Thanks in advance for any help.

[razorboy5]

I was a Computer Science student as well (University Level) until I recently switched into Accounting.

I used a TI-30XIIS calculator from Texas Instruments with no problems (may not be the most "powerful" but good value for its price of about 20-30 canadian)

took Calculus, Stats and Mathematics for Computer Science (well Math for ComSci is quite simple as most of it is logic and theory) so a powerful calculator is not needed

also took physics in High School level with no problems

good luck with ur studies :P

[Lysander10]

Thanks for the reply. A few things:

1) I'm actually a junior, not an incoming freshman. I've taken quite a few math/computer science courses already, and a lot in high school(including AP Physics), and did quite well with a TI-30x IIS.

2) I, too, used to think as you did - that the basic TI-30x IIS was good enough. And while it is "good enough", the Sharp calculator that I mentioned has been extremely useful. The computer science program I'm in is more engineering and math-oriented than a lot of other comp sci programs though.

I don't know how much math is required for your accounting degree, but you really might want to check into upgrading calculators yourself - the Sharp calculator I mentioned was only $15 on Amazon, and it's more useful than you might imagine.

[nmccrina]

Edit: I should read the entire post before commenting! :)

[Skripka]

What do you mean by "derivatives and integrals"? Are you wanting numeric evaluation, or you wanting a calculator that can do the symbolic work for you?

Usually the only derivatives/integrals that you should run away from doing with pencil/paper involve falling bodies with air resistance....just about anything else ain't that bad.

I'd say if a professor has an issue with graphing calculators (i.e. non-QWERTY devices), they'll have an issue with calculators that can do integrals/derivatives for you.

[Chronon]

Also, please don't respond with something like "pencil and paper" - that isn't an acceptable solution for advanced mathematics-based courses where tests are timed and graded on a curve.

All of my "advanced" mathematics courses were timed and graded on a curve. Pencil and paper was my best tool for taking exams. Unless the course is focused on computation a calculator probably won't do you much good. I didn't use a calculator on tests after my junior year because of this.

- Physics 1 and 2 : A basic scientific calculator would be all you need.

- Calculus 2 and 3 : multivariable calculus and vector analysis; I found that most of the work is done symbolically. I am not aware of any handheld calculator that's capable of doing multivariable calculus. Also, your professor probably wants to see things like whether you reparameterize the problem, which order you carry out the integration, etc. Vector analysis will require you to understand the various integral theorems (Gauss's, Stokes's, Green's. A calculator will not be able to help you with that. Probably, the calculation part will be fairly light. In all likelihood, exam questions will be designed so that they are analytically soluble.

- Matrix Algebra : Introductory linear algebra is generally fairly computation oriented. A calculator capable of doing matrix inversion or Gaussian elimination (etc.) may be useful. However, in my experience, the calculator was only useful to check your answers as the prof wanted the calculation performed in gory detail to be sure you understood what you were doing.

- a lot of computer science and engineering courses : I don't really know what to expect for this stuff. I'm sure you have a better idea about it than I do.

- possible more math courses - I may minor in math : I think it's a good idea. Whether or not a calculator is necessary or even useful will depend a lot on the particular classes you choose.

[SomeGuyDude]

My TI-89 was a workhorse. Hell if I knew where it was I'd sell it to you for a good price, but it got dropped off into Narnia sometime when I graduated.

[mkendall]

Huh. My degree is in Mathematics and Physics with a minor in Computer Science. I rarely used a calculator for Mathematics, never used one for Comp/Sci and got by with a TI-80, I think, for Physics and never used more than 10% of it's capabilities.

I will point out that you could always tell the engineering students in the Mathematics courses. They are the ones who would give an answer of 0.707106781, while the Mathematics students would answer with the infinitely more accurate √2/2. The engineering students also tended to be the ones who had no idea what the hell they were doing nor why. They just wanted to know how to plug it into the calculator.

[Lysander10]

Thank you all for the replies. A few things, however.... I would appreciate it if you would stop assuming your experiences equate with my own. Many of my courses are set up so that we must use a calculator on the exams.

For example, in my computer organization course, on our last exam, we had to convert a lot of numbers back and forth between decimal and IEEE 754 floating point notation. If you're amazing enough that you can do those questions with pencil and paper faster than your peers, who all have calculators, kudos to you. I, however, am a mere ordinary mortal.

Secondly, I am not using the calculator as a crutch. Everything I need to do, I can do by hand - I have a policy of using the calculator on homework as little as possible. It's on tests, where I'm competing against my fellow students, that I really use it.

Even if I can only use these functions to check my work, or automate the number-crunching(which, despite what many of you have said, HAS BEEN a major part of my exams), that is very helpful.

That said, to those of you who really attempted to answer my question, instead of scolding me from your lofty perch, thank you.

[Nepherte]

"pencil and paper" - that isn't an acceptable solution for advanced mathematics-based courses where tests are timed and graded on a curveIt certainly was my solution.

I have my doubts on the usefulness of a calculator at all except for calculating simple sin, cos and evaluating simple expression one liners.

What's the use of calculating integrals and derivates with a calculator? Derivates are not hard if you know your base derivates and chaining. Integrals may get a little harder, but it's probably just a combination of exponentials, sines and cosines or multiples and that's not hard either. By the time you entered everything in your calculator, you're already half way finishing the exercise. No wonder those people complain about having not much time.

I can't believe they even let you answer those questions with a calculator. A numerical answer is hardly an answer. I managed to do everything with a casio fx92. There usually is a relative brief and elegant solution you're missing then.

Using calculators for boolean equations? Are you serious?

[Lysander10]

What do you mean by "derivatives and integrals"? Are you wanting numeric evaluation, or you wanting a calculator that can do the symbolic work for you?

Usually the only derivatives/integrals that you should run away from doing with pencil/paper involve falling bodies with air resistance....just about anything else ain't that bad.

I'd say if a professor has an issue with graphing calculators (i.e. non-QWERTY devices), they'll have an issue with calculators that can do integrals/derivatives for you.

1) I just want it to take derivatives and integrals numerically, so that I can check my answers. Yes, that's right - I'm really not expecting it to take the exam for me.

2) That may be so, however, my professors simply say it can't be a programmable, graphing calculator. Any scientific that can't do those things can be used. You're right - they probably don't realize how powerful some scientific calculators are. Or maybe they do. In any case, it is their responsibility to know, not my responsibility to inform them.

As I said, I am not interested in cheating, but I am interested in using every resource available to me. One of my engineering professors told me something once that's stuck with me: "An engineer can do for a dime what any idiot can do for a dollar." I think there's something to that.

[Lysander10]

It certainly was my solution.

I have my doubts on the usefulness of a calculator at all except for calculating simple sin, cos and evaluating simple expression one liners.

What's the use of calculating integrals and derivates with a calculator? Derivates are not hard if you know your base derivates and chaining. Integrals may get a little harder, but it's probably just a combination of exponentials, sines and cosines or multiples and that's not hard either. By the time you entered everything in your calculator, you're already half way finishing the exercise. No wonder those people complain about having not much time.

I can't believe they even let you answer those questions with a calculator. A numerical answer is hardly an answer. I managed to do everything with a casio fx92. There usually is a relative brief and elegant solution you're missing then.

Using calculators for boolean equations? Are you serious?

When I made that previous post, I was looking at you.

The use of having a calculator that does those things is you can check your answer on tests. And as I said before, if you're just that damn good that you can convert to and from IEEE 754 floating-point notation with pencil and paper faster than your peers can, who will have calculators(because the tests are graded on a curve), you deserve a pat on the back.

[Excedio]

...this thread is taking a turn for the worse...

:popcorn:

Lysander10, I feel for you... Some of the people posting are not attempting to give you the answer you are seeking...as I was a Sign Language Interpreting major, I'm afraid I cannot help :(

Guys/Gals, I'm pretty sure he's just looking for Brand & Model of calculator...not a lecture on why he needs to be using pencil and paper...

[Lysander10]

...this thread is taking a turn for the worse...

:popcorn:

Lysander10, I feel for you... Some of the people posting are not attempting to give you the answer you are seeking...as I was a Sign Language Interpreting major, I'm afraid I cannot help :(

Guys/Gals, I'm pretty sure he's just looking for Brand & Model of calculator...not a lecture on why he needs to be using pencil and paper...

Thank you. It isn't that I want something that does all my work for me - I think it's critically important to know how to do it by hand. What I think people don't understand is that their experiences do not necessarily equate to my own, so I would appreciate it if they would quit lecturing me when they don't even know the details of the situation.

I'm actually a very studious person, and I do very well in my classes(with or without help from a machine). It's insulting for others to simply assume otherwise, only because I'm trying to be more competitive on certain exams.

[Chronon]

What I think people don't understand is that their experiences do not necessarily equate to my own, so I would appreciate it if they would quit lecturing me when they don't even know the details of the situation.

Lysander10, that's entirely possible. So, why are you asking this kind of advice on a public forum when the answer depends on particular information that other people don't have. Wouldn't you be better off talking to other people in your department?

[Lysander10]

Lysander10, that's entirely possible. So, why are you asking this kind of advice on a public forum when the answer depends on particular information that other people don't have. Wouldn't you be better off talking to other people in your department?

That's a good point(by the way, none of my remarks were targeted towards you - I felt your response to my post was well thought-out and helpful).

The people in my department who I have asked usually recommend the TI-30x IIS, TI-83, or TI-84, because they're simple and easy to use(and they haven't actually used anything else). I've worked through many courses with nothing but a basic TI-30x IIS, but this wasn't really what I was looking for.

Maybe I should have simply either asked what calculator had the feature set I was looking for, without explaining what it would be used for, or explained in more detail precisely what it is I intend to do with it.

Unfortunately, the latter approach would probably lead to people not reading my post at all, and the former, to recommendations that wouldn't be particularly helpful.

In any case, I apologize if I wasn't being clear.

[SomeGuyDude]

Huh. My degree is in Mathematics and Physics with a minor in Computer Science. I rarely used a calculator for Mathematics, never used one for Comp/Sci and got by with a TI-80, I think, for Physics and never used more than 10% of it's capabilities.

I will point out that you could always tell the engineering students in the Mathematics courses. They are the ones who would give an answer of 0.707106781, while the Mathematics students would answer with the infinitely more accurate √2/2. The engineering students also tended to be the ones who had no idea what the hell they were doing nor why. They just wanted to know how to plug it into the calculator.

And engineer has no need to know why a formula works. All that matters is that they know it DOES work and how to use it. Get off your ******* high horse.

[Lysander10]

And engineer has no need to know why a formula works. All that matters is that they know it DOES work and how to use it. Get off your ******* high horse.


I think it's critically important to know how to do it by hand.

Engineers apparently have no need to be literate, either.

(If this post wasn't intended to be sarcastic, I apologize).

[Nepherte]

When I made that previous post, I was looking at you.

The use of having a calculator that does those things is you can check your answer on tests. And as I said before, if you're just that damn good that you can convert to and from IEEE 754 floating-point notation with pencil and paper faster than your peers can, who will have calculators(because the tests are graded on a curve), you deserve a pat on the back.
I appologize for the rather rude tone in my previous posts. I should have formulated it in another way. I do stick however to my opinion about the use of calculators for this kind of things. While I can agree that it is always useful to quickly switch between other notations like decimals and ieee 754, it doesn't take that long to do it yourself either. It is a scientific notation so starts with a leading 1 or 0. If you know that IEEE 754 has a sign bit, an exponantial bit part and a significant bit part, it's really just a matter of converting decimals to bits ...

Oh and by the way, I'm far from the genius you may think I am.

[Nepherte]

And engineer has no need to know why a formula works. All that matters is that they know it DOES work and how to use it. Get off your ******* high horse.
I disagree. What if the engineer has to develop something and there is currently no formula for it? He's gonna leave it at that?

[Lysander10]

I appologize for the rather rude tone in my previous posts. I should have formulated it in another way. I do stick however to my opinion about the use of calculators for this kind of things. While I can agree that it is always useful to quickly switch between other notations like decimals and ieee 754, it doesn't take that long to do it yourself either. It is a scientific notation so starts with a leading 1 or 0. If you know that IEEE 754 has a sign bit, an exponantial bit part and a significant bit part, it's really just a matter of converting decimals to bits ...

Oh and by the way, I'm far from the genius you may think I am.

Thank you. It was really not my intention to start a flame war! Now that we're being civil, I'm a little more inclined to explain...

In the example I've given about my computer organization class, where we're converting to and from IEEE 754(among many other things), the tests are designed so that you must work problems as quickly as humanly possible. In ten years, only one person has made a perfect score on a single test in this course before the curve(again, it was designed this way), and in my class, only two people even passed the last test before the curve was applied(I was one of them).

IEEE 754 numbers can certainly be calculated by hand; I've worked dozens of them with a basic calculator(+ - * / ^) as practice(and we aren't assigned homework in this class... all work done outside of class is done by our own initiative). And there is no reason at all to use a calculator to compute the sign bit.

But take, for instance, converting Avogadro's number, 6.022 * 10^23, to IEEE 754. The sign bit is 0, because it's a positive number. Now we must find E by performing log2 of 6.022*10^23, which equals 79. Add that to 127 to get C, the characteristic. Convert the characteristic to hexadecimal, and then to binary(which saves time over converting directly to binary). Now find F by computing 2^E, which is 2^79, which is ~0.996256329. Now convert that to hexadecimal, and then to binary(16 * 0.99625639 = 15.940101 = F, 16 * 0.940101 = 15.041620 = F, etc. etc.).

I really can not see how that can be done faster with only pencil and paper than it can with a calculator(but if it can, I'm interested in learning how). And a lot of features I was looking for in my calculator specifications could speed that up considerably - in this case, simulations, table generation, and n-base conversions.

Again, I only want those features for the exams(I'm still doing the "homework" by hand). And I hope you can see now why that would be useful - on the exams, I must take advantage of every resource available to me. And, really, with simulations and table generation, you must still know how the method is done - you're essentially just using a more concise notation for the number crunching in the calculator.

There are a lot of other examples I could give that are similar to that. Sometimes, in the case of derivatives, integrals, and simplifying boolean expressions to a minimum number of literals, I only want extra features for checking my work(this is where the boolean algebra comes into play). Most of the time, we must give symbolic answers anyway, but I can check my work numerically by plugging numbers in. And no, I wouldn't have time to check very much of my work on computer organization tests anyway, but most tests(e.g. calculus) aren't quite as intense.

I hope that better explains what I'm looking for and why. I apologize for being verbose, but that's why I avoided a more lengthy explanation to begin with(which was my mistake).

[SomeGuyDude]

I disagree. What if the engineer has to develop something and there is currently no formula for it? He's gonna leave it at that?

What the hell is he building? A quantum laser cannon that involves string theory? I'd be ever so slightly surprised to discover a physics problem an engineer could run across that someone else hasn't already taken care of.

My engineering profs told me it was more important to know how to find an answer than to necessarily be able to figure it out with nothing but scratch paper.

[Lysander10]

Now find F by computing 2^E, which is 2^79, which is ~0.996256329.


Typo. F is computed by dividing V by 2^E, which would equal ~0.996256329... obviously not just 2^E.

Edit: punctuation

[Lysander10]

What the hell is he building? A quantum laser cannon that involves string theory? I'd be ever so slightly surprised to discover a physics problem an engineer could run across that someone else hasn't already taken care of.

My engineering profs told me it was more important to know how to find an answer than to necessarily be able to figure it out with nothing but scratch paper.

Another good point. My engineering professor, who worked for IBM for many years, and designed missile-tracking systems for the government, told me something similar.

In reality, I think it's usually a balance between knowing how to do it by hand, but automating the work to enhance productivity unless there's a real reason to do otherwise. And many engineers will never have a reason to do otherwise.

I'm considering using my degree to do research after college though, and I want to go to graduate school, so I think I need to know how to do it by hand. That said, I strongly believe a powerful calculator can be a highly useful tool for the reasons I mentioned above, as long as it isn't abused.

[Excedio]

I gotta say....when you get the score back on this test, I really wanna know the score. Hope you wouldn't mind posting the score.

[Lysander10]

I gotta say....when you get the score back on this test, I really wanna know the score. Hope you wouldn't mind posting the score.

Not at all. I made a 90%.

[samjh]

I think you're asking for advice in the wrong place.

It seems as though you are looking for a state-of-the-art scientific calculator. If you ask people who have already "been there, done that", then you're only going to get yesterday's answers: old calculators, pencil-and-paper, etc. What kind of calculators do your mathematics postgraduate students use? They would probably be the best people to ask.

When I was studying engineering, I got through Statics & Dynamics, Linear Algebra, and Multivariate Calculus courses just fine using my ancient Casio fx-100s VPAM (no longer in production). My computer science courses wouldn't even allow calculators to be used. This is obviously not the right solution for you, but it's the kind of answer you will get around here.

[Lysander10]

I think you're asking for advice in the wrong place.

It seems as though you are looking for a state-of-the-art scientific calculator. If you ask people who have already "been there, done that", then you're only going to get yesterday's answers: old calculators, pencil-and-paper, etc. What kind of calculators do your mathematics postgraduate students use? They would probably be the best people to ask.

When I was studying engineering, I got through Statics & Dynamics, Linear Algebra, and Multivariate Calculus courses just fine using my ancient Casio fx-100s VPAM (no longer in production). My computer science courses wouldn't even allow calculators to be used. This is obviously not the right solution for you, but it's the kind of answer you will get around here.

I'm afraid you're right; you've articulated my problem quite well. I honestly wasn't sure precisely what the demographic would be like here. I only knew I would probably find fellow technophiles like myself - and I occasionally try to help people with their issues on these forums, so I thought it might be a good place to start.

I can see now that you're right. I've already researched a solution on my own, but if I have a similar question in the future, I will know to ask a graduate student. Thanks for the advice.

[Bungo Pony]

I wish I had this when I was in high school:

http://oldcomputers.net/trs80pc3.html

If it don't do it, program it yourself! This particular model has 1.4K of RAM available to the user. It was enough for me to program a small slot machine game and a blackjack game.

I think I wrote a piece of software to calculate the cost of groceries as you entered the price, and it gave you the total including tax. Easy way to shop when you're on a budget.

I would have aced Physics if I had this thing. Just program a menu for conversions, jam all the formulas in, and whammo! You've got the ultimate customized calculator for your course! Might need the 9k version to keep all the formulas though (which I also own):

http://pocket.free.fr/html/sharp/pc-1261_e.html

[Excedio]

Not at all. I made a 90%.

Congrats :-)