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newbie2
September 25th, 2009, 07:51 PM
World dominance statements aside, Ubuntu is already a favorite among many IT pros who wish the end users they support would convert. But getting the masses to defect from Windows has proved a difficult.

Brennen Bearnes, deputy director of IT at Boulder, Colo.-based SparkFun Electronics, knows this firsthand. The company's IT and Web development employees use Ubuntu and Debian, the distribution Ubuntu is based on, and they are pushing to move other employees onto Ubuntu as well.

The rationale for moving off the familiar Windows OS is not only cost but also the availability of more tools for programmers and system administrators, Bearnes said. SparkFun also happens to be a do-it-yourself kind of company, so the open source ethos appeals to them as well, he said.

But deploying anything but Windows across the enterprise would result in a backlash from end users who hate change.

"The closest I've come to switching users over is putting Ubuntu on a computer that another co-worker occasionally shares with me," said Brian Rasimick, a research & development manager at a New Jersey-based manufacturing company. "After a five-minute crash course and an hour of limping along, he adjusted fine. Then he tried to install iTunes, which is not available on Ubuntu. … He asked why I'd install something where he can't buy stuff on iTunes and [asked] to go back to the old system."

Beswick of 415 Systems, said he considered deploying Ubuntu on employee desktops, "but the operating system is too complicated for regular users who don't understand the file system and need Windows applications," he said.

Germain Bisson, vice president of customer care at Ottawa-based IPeak Networks Inc., is a Windows user who said he was "reluctantly dragged into Ubuntu" because it is the six-month old company's default OS.

Bisson said weaning himself off Microsoft Office was a big step because for more than a decade he used it to manage his email, contacts and calendar, but now uses Google's Web-based email system, Gmail, and considers OpenOffice a good enough substitute for Microsoft Office.

Bisson runs Windows XP and Ubuntu on his Dell PC and on his Netbook in case he needs an application supported only on Windows but rarely falls back on Windows anymore.

"Any Windows user will have a transition issue, but I am finding I am more effective on Ubuntu," Bisson said.

He added, "The trend is toward online-based applications and free, open source. People don't want to pay for something that is available for free."
http://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid39_gci1369381,00.html
:rolleyes:

ChrT
September 25th, 2009, 08:06 PM
TL;DR, people in the IT business like GNU/Linux, the rest of the world fears it. How is this new?

xpod
September 25th, 2009, 08:16 PM
From what i`ve seen round here over the years many "IT Pros" struggle to convert themselves to Ubuntu, never mind anyone else.:)


I have been in IT for longer than most and i probably know more about computers than anyone here but if I cant manage this here Ubuntu how the hell are mom & pop ever gonna manage?

ddrichardson
September 25th, 2009, 08:20 PM
But deploying anything but Windows across the enterprise would result in a backlash from end users who hate change.
Damn straight - anyone here upgrade their users from Office 2003 to Office 2007?

aysiu
September 25th, 2009, 09:18 PM
Damn straight - anyone here upgrade their users from Office 2003 to Office 2007?
We're in a mixed environment at my workplace, and people who are using 2003 constantly complain about getting attachments from others using 2007. So it's up to our tech support to run around to people's computers to make sure they have the proper compatibility pack in place.

Doing any kind of migration or upgrade can be a real headache for an organization.

I'm not looking forward to when my school upgrades from Windows XP to Windows 7 next year.

-grubby
September 25th, 2009, 09:44 PM
Then he tried to install iTunes, which is not available on Ubuntu. … He asked why I'd install something where he can't buy stuff on iTunes and [asked] to go back to the old system.


Wait, people don't use Linux when it doesn't do everything they used to be able to do in Windows (or whatever they're being migrated from)? Who knew?

Icehuck
September 25th, 2009, 09:51 PM
Damn straight - anyone here upgrade their users from Office 2003 to Office 2007?

The feedback from that was downright hateful.

Ever mistakenly moved an icon on a users desktop? Lots of, "Why do I call you IT people when all you do is break my system."

Skripka
September 25th, 2009, 09:53 PM
Wait, people don't use Linux when it doesn't do everything they used to be able to do in Windows (or whatever they're being migrated from)? Who knew?

WTF is a person using iTunes on a work computer? And why are the byotching about it? You're at work to work, not surf the internet for music for your personal collection of music.

That idiot basically admitted they should be fired. Right. There.

openfly
September 25th, 2009, 09:53 PM
Things that kill ubuntu as an option:

iTunes ( This is big... jesus phones and ipods are owned by EVERYONE )... mind you iTunes is a steaming pile of feces and I'd love to see it die the death it so richly deserves. I have like 5 perl scripts just for importing my music into iTunes in a way that makes it usable.

Games .... if valve formed a strategic aliance with nvidia and ubuntu and deployed steam on ubuntu... it would be the rise of ubuntu as a desktop os. And possibly the fall of EA.

Office... Visio is pretty hot, where's the equivalent in linux... oh wait... they all suck.

Video... OH, you mean linux is using codecs from 1990? gee did polycom make linux?

Heh... I kid. I kid.

Skripka
September 25th, 2009, 09:54 PM
Things that kill ubuntu as an option:

iTunes ( This is big... jesus phones and ipods are owned by EVERYONE )... mind you iTunes is a steaming pile of feces and I'd love to see it die the death it so richly deserves. I have like 5 perl scripts just for importing my music into iTunes in a way that makes it usable.

Games .... if valve formed a strategic aliance with nvidia and ubuntu and deployed steam on ubuntu... it would be the rise of ubuntu as a desktop os. And possibly the fall of EA.

Office... Visio is pretty hot, where's the equivalent in linux... oh wait... they all suck.

Video... OH, you mean linux is using codecs from 1990? gee did polycom make linux?

Heh... I kid. I kid.

We are talking about IT WORK computing.

Games=NOT an issue

iTunes=NOT an issue.

Anyone byotching about not being able to play Fallout3 whiles't downloading iTunes on their work computer basically should get a free ticket to the unemployment line.

-grubby
September 25th, 2009, 09:55 PM
WTF is a person using iTunes on a work computer? And why are the byotching about it? You're at work to work, not surf the internet for music for your personal collection of music.

That idiot basically admitted they should be fired. Right. There.

Thank you for missing my point completely.

Skripka
September 25th, 2009, 09:57 PM
Thank you for missing my point completely.

You point was completely irrelevant.

Why should IT Pros in business CARE about 3rd party end user app support in Linux for apps COMPLETELY UNRELATED to what their business is doing?

aysiu
September 25th, 2009, 09:57 PM
Things that kill ubuntu as an option:

iTunes ( This is big... jesus phones and ipods are owned by EVERYONE )... I don't know. It looks, actually, as if Symbian and Blackberry are owned by "EVERYONE" (or at least 70% of the SmartPhone market).
http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/08/13/iphone-market-share-grew-375-in-q2/

Icehuck
September 25th, 2009, 09:58 PM
We are talking about IT WORK computing.

Games=NOT an issue

iTunes=NOT an issue.

Anyone byotching about not being able to play Fallout3 whiles't downloading iTunes on their work computer basically should get a free ticket to the unemployment line.

Some corporations actually encourage employees to have fun while at work. Some of them even hand out Ipods to employees.

Skripka
September 25th, 2009, 10:01 PM
Some corporations actually encourage employees to have fun while at work. Some of them even hand out Ipods to employees.

Truth...but holding the IT department back from say switching to Linux--which would save money (instantly from licensing) and headaches (for everyone, in the long run)....because users at work want to waste time and demand compatibility with their 3rd party non-work apps/hardware, is downright stupid.

ddrichardson
September 25th, 2009, 10:01 PM
The feedback from that was downright hateful.

Ever mistakenly moved an icon on a users desktop? Lots of, "Why do I call you IT people when all you do is break my system."
Once worked in a place that real time financial updates from the US. When that went down people could be physically aggresive.

The Toxic Mite
September 25th, 2009, 10:07 PM
tl;dr

foremannz
September 25th, 2009, 10:08 PM
The state post office in NZ has moved to Linux and Google Apps to do all their work - they calculated they would stacks of money a year in that change alone!
http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/AE975192352D1C90CC2572B4000F61A6

And theres the basis for my attempt to change peoples attitudes - online email, google apps for documents, and Ubuntu with the familiar firefox for accessing it all ... will work so long as they don't want to install anything dependant on Microsoft OS

ddrichardson
September 25th, 2009, 10:10 PM
tl;dr
But you took the time to post?

openfly
September 25th, 2009, 10:13 PM
Okay corporate reasons Ubuntu is not work ready:


No decent Visio Alternative
No Decent MS Access Alternative
No way to recreate file / print sharing and account control systems that are as good as active directory.
It will disrupt workflow at least temporarily.
Early adopters lose. Don't early adopt.
XXXXXX Software package is not compatible.
Wait, where is my radius / radii alternative?
Hey, why can't I staff helpdesk positions without twice the salary requirement I had before...


That's just a few of the obvious ones.

r4z0r_bl4d3
September 25th, 2009, 11:01 PM
you can't just throw users into ubuntu willy-nilly. You need to transition gradually.

use open office in windows, firefox, pidgin, lots of other FOSS software that runs on windows.

The biggest problem I see in completely transitioning from an all windows infrastructure to a mixed environment, then to all FOSS is active directory and exchange.

Exchange has some great replacements. (Zimbra and Scalix come to mind)
But with Samba being slow to catch up to a true active directory drop in replacement, well that means companies will still need to have a mixed environment.

And speaking of users hating change from office 2003 to 2007, imagine the chaos that will happen when the decision is made to migrate to windows 7. (And lets face it, most companies are gonna move to windows 7 eventually. XP is showing its age.) Although XP is still usable, however when Microsoft stops patching it for major security issues, then alot of companies are gonna ditch windows XP for something else.

When it is time to ditch XP, it is clearly more cost effective to switch to Ubuntu/Linux. The real question is, will regular users be used to open office etc., or will they still be dependent on their Microsoft crutch?

**steps off soapbox**

SuperSonic4
September 25th, 2009, 11:11 PM
Since when did IT ever give a **** about what the end user thought of change?

ddrichardson
September 25th, 2009, 11:16 PM
When it is time to ditch XP, it is clearly more cost effective to switch to Ubuntu/Linux. The real question is, will regular users be used to open office etc., or will they still be dependent on their Microsoft crutch?
I think to refer to it as a Microsoft "Crutch" is a little unfair. We need to accept that there is more to corporate purchasing choosing Microsoft than historic choice - in many cases some product lines are actually quite good.

WSS, Exchange and Active Directory spring to mind, I'm sure there are alternatives but not nearly as widely available nor as widely understood by those supporting them.

When you start to consider support, training and wage expectation then licensing is not as disperate - especially when some products, such as Office engender themselves to you employees being trained prior to you employing them - purely because of their pervasiveness.

Ubuntu is never going to be all things to all men, Linux perhaps but not one distribution.

ddrichardson
September 25th, 2009, 11:18 PM
Since when did IT ever give a **** about what the end user thought of change?
If they don't then they're short sighted. I'd hate to see my workload double because I was arrogant.

Icehuck
September 25th, 2009, 11:28 PM
Since when did IT ever give a **** about what the end user thought of change?

It's not up to the IT department, but management as a whole. You wouldn't believe how many projects get denied because management doesn't care.

Ian dewhurst
September 26th, 2009, 02:39 AM
We are talking about IT WORK computing.

Games=NOT an issue

iTunes=NOT an issue.

Anyone byotching about not being able to play Fallout3 whiles't downloading iTunes on their work computer basically should get a free ticket to the unemployment line.


At last! Someone who shares my opinion.
I threw a right ol' strop today when I found one employee using the internet for:
personal banking
to put it bluntly sex sites
paying bills
and the tip of the iceberg looking for other jobs!

I have also been asked could the pc be used for uploading photos and downloading music. No.
I'm pretty sure its not do nothing at work day. Its just always work day.

mikewhatever
September 26th, 2009, 03:12 AM
Things that kill ubuntu as an option:

iTunes ( This is big... jesus phones and ipods are owned by EVERYONE )... mind you iTunes is a steaming pile of feces and I'd love to see it die the death it so richly deserves. I have like 5 perl scripts just for importing my music into iTunes in a way that makes it usable.

Ipods may be big in the USA and a few other countries, but if you think broader, they aren't. Some people are very USA centric, probably because they just don't realize how vast the world is outside of USA. That's ok, but be informed, ipods are NOT owned by everyone.
Anyway, that point is irrelevant for an office environment. If anything, I bet managers would run to adopt Ubuntu, had they known the workers would stop wasting time playing with itunes at work.


Games .... if valve formed a strategic aliance with nvidia and ubuntu and deployed steam on ubuntu... it would be the rise of ubuntu as a desktop os. And possibly the fall of EA.

Are you suggesting employees should play games at work? Great idea!


Video... OH, you mean linux is using codecs from 1990? gee did polycom make linux?



What do I care from which decade the codec is? It works, and it's installation is easier then in Windows.

DivineTemplar
September 27th, 2009, 07:23 AM
As far as for a business, I would likely be running Ubuntu. The cost alone is a great reason to begin using it in the workplace, along with the fact that it is generally more secure (and we all know that unless you are running a closed network, your employees will likely be doing things and looking at things that they likely shouldn't on company time).

We all know that the average Windows user is... to put it bluntly, slow. However there is always a learning curve for any job, and so adding this into the mix from the very beginning will crush away any of the major complaints they are going to have about the differences.

There are plenty of options to go with that have similar to identical compatibility with Microsoft products, and now Microsoft is going to be pushing toward something similar to what Google is offering in terms of a program that is totally run online.

Use alternatives from the start and people will have less room to complain.

hobo14
September 27th, 2009, 08:04 AM
Okay corporate reasons Ubuntu is not work ready:

No decent Visio Alternative
I admit, I don't use Visio, so I may be talking out of my ar**, but how about Gliffy, or Dia, off the top of my head?


Hey, why can't I staff helpdesk positions without twice the salary requirement I had before...

LOL, that's good, never seen it before. Conscripting random people off the street into your IT department won't work anymore!



At last! Someone who shares my opinion.
I threw a right ol' strop today when I found one employee using the internet for:
personal banking
to put it bluntly sex sites
paying bills
and the tip of the iceberg looking for other jobs!

I have also been asked could the pc be used for uploading photos and downloading music. No.
I'm pretty sure its not do nothing at work day. Its just always work day.
Even though, of course, employee productivity is none of your business.
Just keep the computer systems working, and leave the strops to management.

stwschool
September 27th, 2009, 08:52 AM
Employee productivity is technically none of our business... The funny thing though is that it IS our business. Our purpose as IT people is to improve their productivity with IT tools. A good IT department will know the company's systems inside out and know the procedures of every department, because IT is so pervasive, and usually those IT people have solutions that will improve productivity all over the business. So, if management want to make more money, listen to the IT guys!

thisllub
September 27th, 2009, 09:59 AM
Okay corporate reasons Ubuntu is not work ready:


No decent Visio Alternative
No Decent MS Access Alternative

Rubbish. They both run in Wine.
For most things there are a number of packages that work in Linux anyway.
Dia is ok for simple stuff, Intalio for BPMN and Umbrello or Netbeans for UML.
If you mean Access as a front end you can't be serious.
I have done years of work with Access and there is no way I would touch it if I was starting a project now. All it does better than the obvious competitors is a couple of types of update queries. Conversely it has real problems with some datain joins that work properly in MySQL for example.



No way to recreate file / print sharing and account control systems that are as good as active directory.

So an open source system that identifies inbound sip callers by name via openLdap is inadequate?
Printing is only inferior if you buy a gdi printer.


It will disrupt workflow at least temporarily.
Early adopters lose. Don't early adopt.
XXXXXX Software package is not compatible.
Wait, where is my radius / radii alternative?
Hey, why can't I staff helpdesk positions without twice the salary requirement I had before...


That's just a few of the obvious ones.
EVERY one of these has an equally compelling counter argument.

After 4 years of working on Linux based machines I am now working in a Windows environment and my productivity and general enjoyment has tanked.
By the end of this week the Windows apps will live in a VM and all will be well with the universe.

hobo14
September 27th, 2009, 11:13 AM
"...if management want to make more money, listen to the <insert your department here> guys!"

That's what everyone says about their own department.

Swagman
September 27th, 2009, 11:25 AM
Citrix is your friend

Exodist
September 27th, 2009, 11:34 AM
WTF is a person using iTunes on a work computer? And why are the byotching about it? You're at work to work, not surf the internet for music for your personal collection of music.

That idiot basically admitted they should be fired. Right. There.

LOL,, I was wondering if I was the only one that caught that as well.. :)

Exodist
September 27th, 2009, 11:42 AM
Just food for thought. When you start a job, the company normally has policy's that workers must conform to. If not the company can easy get somone who can or will without argument. Jobs are very hard to get here in the US now. If a company wishes to switch OSs to save money, in this day and age who can blame them. The workers just need to suck it up and get used to it, or be replaced by someone who values a paycheck a little more. I am a CNC Machinist, our companies policy is steel-toed boots/shoes and safety glasses. I have to use both, if I dont want to then there are many folks begging for my job. So I conform. A PCs OS is no different...

Just my honest opinion.

SuperSonic4
September 27th, 2009, 11:45 AM
A problem in business is that they have to do everything above board. For example, a home user would just get the codecs for free, which is technically illegal in some parts of the world.
Now those codec owners won't care if you do it but they will if business does. When a business pays for windows they usually get codec+some software licences chucked in as part of that cost.

ddrichardson
September 27th, 2009, 11:49 AM
A problem in business is that they have to do everything above board. For example, a home user would just get the codecs for free, which is technically illegal in some parts of the world.
Now those codec owners won't care if you do it but they will if business does. When a business pays for windows they usually get codec+some software licences chucked in as part of that cost.
Actually they don't - Vista business is pretty bare.

SuperSonic4
September 27th, 2009, 11:50 AM
Just food for thought. When you start a job, the company normally has policy's that workers must conform to. If not the company can easy get somone who can or will without argument. Jobs are very hard to get here in the US now. If a company wishes to switch OSs to save money, in this day and age who can blame them. The workers just need to suck it up and get used to it, or be replaced by someone who values a paycheck a little more. I am a CNC Machinist, our companies policy is steel-toed boots/shoes and safety glasses. I have to use both, if I dont want to then there are many folks begging for my job. So I conform. A PCs OS is no different...

Just my honest opinion.

That's not unlike what I was getting at before when I said the IT don't really care. If you, as an employee, is not willing to learn a new OS then there are plenty of people waiting to take your place. In school it's more acceptable to rebel because education is a fundamental right but in work you could never be touched again.

Also, a lot of people are averse to change - a quick search on these forums will confirm that people stay with windows because they know it works. Also the 6 month upgrade could get expensive in terms of time - a rolling release or an ultra-stable system such as debian would be better. Even using the LTS requires a 3(?) year upgrade and from what I've seen here upgrades are more fraught with danger than clean installs and what business wants to run the risk of added downtime?

SuperSonic4
September 27th, 2009, 11:52 AM
Actually they don't - Vista business is pretty bare.

Fair enough, I could have swore my MSDN copy [vista business] had them :confused:.

It still means companies must pay more (or not have codecs-they shouldn't matter in the workplace and ogg can be used for system sounds) but I digress

Exodist
September 27th, 2009, 12:01 PM
That's not unlike what I was getting at before when I said the IT don't really care. If you, as an employee, is not willing to learn a new OS then there are plenty of people waiting to take your place. In school it's more acceptable to rebel because education is a fundamental right but in work you could never be touched again.

Also, a lot of people are averse to change - a quick search on these forums will confirm that people stay with windows because they know it works. Also the 6 month upgrade could get expensive in terms of time - a rolling release or an ultra-stable system such as debian would be better. Even using the LTS requires a 3(?) year upgrade and from what I've seen here upgrades are more fraught with danger than clean installs and what business wants to run the risk of added downtime?

LOL I agree, I am even stubborn about change. I want gnome to look more less the same for the next 30+ years, but they are already talking about this "shell" crap that frightens the hell out of me. So sometimes change happens if the user likes it or not.

Yea I would only recommend the LTS and always do fresh installs and thats only after test on certain systems before a wide spread upgrade. LOL the IT people would take razors to their wrist if they upgraded a new Ubuntu every 6 months, thats if they survived their co-workers from other departments :lolflag:

Lukios
September 27th, 2009, 02:30 PM
I do a lot of work on computers on the side, and any time a computer is deemed unusable due to viruses or the aftermath thereof I end up installing Ubuntu or Mint as a free replacement (that of course is if they don't have their restore disk). So far, most people have liked it. Most of course comment that it is different, but for the most part it does what they want. Practical application. There are others of course that are like,

"The icon looks different"
"where is the 'start' button"

and other annoying qoutes. Right now I am working on making an Ubuntu remix for these computers that I work on. So far most everyone likes the way I set it up, but I'm always working to make thins more user friendly. If you have any suggestions please leave a comment here

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1275573

Other then that, I have found the best results when

- someone is low on cash and/or has no restore disk
- everything is set up nice and easy
- ask them what they use the computer for and set it up for that purpose
- explain everything about linux - pros and cons
- and simply set up a time where you can sit them down and show them how to use it

hoppipolla
September 27th, 2009, 02:40 PM
Thing is, I love Linux and Ubuntu, but there are some things about it that make me reluctant to convince people to make the switch too ._.

It's close... and I think it could and will be better soon, but I dunno... there are lil advantages to using Winblows atm, for casual users =S

pookiebear
September 27th, 2009, 03:18 PM
I have been an IT guy for almost 20 years. Here are some universal truths.

1. ITunes is the worst virus ever created. Lost work and hours spent shopping for songs is in the trillions of dollars each year. I support over 200 businesses through my IT company..every single one of those companies has at least 2 computers with Itunes on it. As usual symantec doesn't catch it.

2. users expect to be able to put Itunes on their computer. When I mention the fact that it is a work computer I get the mouth open fly catcher stare...

3 every cell phone sales place in the USA pushes blackberry for biz use... 99% of my phone support calls are blackberry but they only represent about 15% of the cell phones I support. Blackberry is the itunes of the cell phone biz. they suck. The iphone syncing with an exchange server = golden (they got it right first try). The blackberry syncing with exchange= 4 hours of nightmare when it quits working.