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View Full Version : I just do not get it - Am I a bad person now?



scheuri
September 16th, 2009, 01:39 PM
Hi all

I am sure you encountered the usual "ah, linux or ubuntu does this or that not right, so screw it I am going back to [insert OS of your choice]".

Quite frankly, I usually do not give that too much credit.
Each community has their people plunching into something new (just because it is new and fancy) and do not think of the consequences.
Those people are then usually very much upset if things do not quite turn out as they thought they will. And of course, they curse the very particular thing which seemed to fancy and shiny at the beginning.
At least I think it must have, otherwise I do not know why people actually try out things...

But what makes me actually going to grind my teeth is the following:
People considering themselves new to the subject (linux in that matter or ubuntu in particular), taking up an alpha relase (such as karmic at the moment) and then start saying "it is still too buggy, cant use it relly good, going to change back to [whatever release or OS]".
I am ashamed that they do not need to write it in an angry form. For me to roll my eyes it sufficent to write this quite in an occasional manner.

It just makes me go crazy...HOW for the love of god can someone not knowing linux that good just choose an alpha release and then state that it is "buggy" or "not quite there yet".

I would love to yell at them saying "Of course it is buggy, it is a freaking alpha. The sole fact it is alpha is a promise to you that it will break, eat your data, your soul and all your kitten and those of your neighbours, too. And that is not going to change until it is beta. And even then, it still very likely break your system! There is no such things as ready or done until it is".

By all means...is it THAT hard to understand? Are there really so many people in this world that you have the very same issues and situations (and therefore forum posts) every single time an ubuntu (or other distro for that matter) release hits alpha?

I just dont get it....does that make me a bad person now?

Kind regards
scheuri

Michael.Godawski
September 16th, 2009, 02:03 PM
You are not a bad person.

Let me tell you this short story. In my dojo, where we practice Aikido, we had a new student. He was, I don't know perhaps 20-something. He came in, was nice at the beginning, though when the training started he attacked much too ferociously. much too fast, much too strongly.

We the advanced students had a hard time not to injure this guy. Because the harder they come the harder they fall. It was training for us. How to deal with unexperienced angry person, without hurting him?

The same here. People come, people shout because of lack of knowledge. But.
This is not a reason whatsoever to freak out, loose temper, act disrespectful, change your attitude, use harsh language.

I sometimes must smile when I see a heated discussion here over literally nothing. When you have dealt with real attacks this forum is a haven of peace.

Not everyone knows what an Alpha Release means. I assume you don't know what a Ryote-kata-dori Sukumen-Iriminage is?

Are you a bad person because of that?

ChrT
September 16th, 2009, 02:04 PM
Well, to be honest, the tradition in GNU/Linux distros is that the "pre-release" versions, whether they're called alpha, testing, or whatever, serve as the rolling release version and are just as stable as the "real" release in 99% of the cases. Ubuntu is breaking this convention and confusing users.

Eddie Wilson
September 16th, 2009, 02:18 PM
Well, to be honest, the tradition in GNU/Linux distros is that the "pre-release" versions, whether they're called alpha, testing, or whatever, serve as the rolling release version and are just as stable as the "real" release in 99% of the cases. Ubuntu is breaking this convention and confusing users.

I don't agree. I've been testing out different distros for years and the maintainers will always tell you to use caution with a pre-release version because it could break your system. There is nothing confusing about that. It is irresponsible for someone to say that an alpha, or beta version is just as stable as the final version. 99% of the time, it is not.

samjh
September 16th, 2009, 02:25 PM
Not everyone knows what an Alpha Release means. I assume you don't know what a Ryote-kata-dori Sukumen-Iriminage is?

Are you a bad person because of that?

A bit unfair to ask the OP that, I think. One can easily Google "alpha release" and find what it is. But an Aikido technique (particularly considering that various branches of Aikido differ somewhat in naming their techniques) is much more difficult to understand.

(I presume Ryote-kata-dori is some kind of a two-handed grab. Not an Aikidoka here.)

scheuri
September 16th, 2009, 02:30 PM
[..]

Not everyone knows what an Alpha Release means. I assume you don't know what a Ryote-kata-dori Sukumen-Iriminage is?


Thanks for you response.
No, I indeed do not know what that Iriminage is, even though I had some aikido lessons myself.

I completely agreed on you until I read the very sentence.
Please tell me if I am completely wrong and I am sorry I have not pointed that out better in my initial post, but...alpha releases are not really advertised prominently (well, on IT-News maybe). You can not download easily by just visiting ubuntu.com (which usually leads you to the stable one).
You have to dig quite a bit for "not knowing" what an alpha is.

So, yes...you are right...not everybody knows what an alpha release is. However, all those managing to download one should in my humble opinion very well be aware of what such a release is.

And of course, it is nothing that someone should forget manners about it. Again, you are absolutely right.
But still, it makes me shake me head in disbelieve.

Thanks again
scheuri

Tibuda
September 16th, 2009, 02:33 PM
So, yes...you are right...not everybody knows what an alpha release is. However, all those managing to download one should in my humble opinion very well be aware of what such a release is.

From http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha5 :

This is an alpha release. Do not install it on production machines. The final stable version will be released on October 29th, 2009.

I'm think the Ubiquity installer also have a warning too.

Michael.Godawski
September 16th, 2009, 02:36 PM
Scenario 1:
People install Alpha without fully understanding what Alpha means. Perhaps they think it some sort of testing thing, but a secure testing thing. Like a Demo Version.
-> Be cool. Explain.

Scenario 2:
People install Alpha to deliberately start a flame war. Trolls.
-> Be cool. Cut the discussion down.

Scenario 3:
I cannot think of another scenario. Can you?

samjh
September 16th, 2009, 02:36 PM
all those managing to download one should in my humble opinion very well be aware of what such a release is.

Frankly, I think those who attempt to use an alpha release and then complain on these forums about how unstable it is or how "it doesn't work" are really just trolling.

As danielrmt has pointed out in the previous post, the warning on the testing download page is quite clear for most people to understand.

etnlIcarus
September 16th, 2009, 02:58 PM
My first experience with *nix was SuSE, on the advice of TechTV. I wasn't prepared to pay (or capable of paying) for the Enterprise Edition, so I went the OpenSuSE route.

At the time, it wasn't very well advetised that OpenSuSE was an unstable distribution, which I only learned after installing it and struggling with everything from installing an application, without it forcing the version of the application from the instalation CDs, to getting FGLRX to cooperate. It would be another 6 months before I'd touch another linux ISO.


There is a natural amount of inertia to any change, especially when it's a change to the unknown. I think it's quite understandable that people will look for even menial excuses to fall-back to the familiar.

As for knowingly installing an unstable distribution, often people's impressions are coloured by other alpha and beta software; anyone who's used a recent alpha build of Firefox could get the wrong impression quite easily. The way stable distributions are advertised doesn't help, either. "No warranty", and, "results may vary", can lessen the perceived disparity between stable and unstable distributions. There's also a certain amount of pressure to get the 'very latest' releases, to ensure the best compatibility.

I think another under-appreciated factor is that many people trying linux, are doing so by themselves. I've only met people proficient with *nix since I started using it. Learning *nix by yourself is damn alienating and online help is only a small comfort.

Anger and resentment on the part of dissatisfied linux adoptees is not particularly justified and is often, at least in-part, a cover for feelings of personal failure. This can be easily excused, up-to the point of exaggerated rantings and hasty generalisations.

t0p
September 16th, 2009, 03:02 PM
I think sometimes people who are well-versed in the dark arts of Windows consider themselves as computer experts and so imagine they are somehow invulnerable to alpha instability, in addition to the belief that an OS is an OS so their many years' experience in Windows will transfer easily to Linux.

You get these posts again and again (usually in General Help rather than Absolute Beginners Talk - these users would never consider themselves beginners!), where they bemoan the fact that their favourite Windows applications will not work in Ubuntu - as if it is proof that Ubuntu is inadequate! I swear, so many of them don't know what Linux is; don't even know what an operating system is!

Don't mistake my words for elitism, please. I was ignorant too. But I knew Linux != Windows some time before I ever installed it.

mkendall
September 16th, 2009, 04:15 PM
I assume you don't know what a Ryote-kata-dori Sukumen-Iriminage is?

Are you a bad person because of that?

Yes, I am. Not because I don't know, but because I really don't care.

RabbitWho
September 16th, 2009, 05:15 PM
Some people think: Alpha > Beta

koenn
September 16th, 2009, 06:14 PM
Not everyone knows what an Alpha Release means. I assume you don't know what a Ryote-kata-dori Sukumen-Iriminage is?

Are you a bad person because of that?

I guess it would be something along the lines of entering a body throw by rotating the head while the opponent holds both your shoulders,
or
holding the opponent with both hands at both his shoulders and move into a body throw.


Close enough ? If so, all credit goes to google.

ericmc783
September 16th, 2009, 09:20 PM
Instead of getting mad, maybe explain briefly what "Alpha" means, and then direct them here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_stage#Alpha

Ironically, more people seem to know what "beta" means, than "alpha", because the big dog companies like google and MS release software in beta stages. Perhaps stating that alpha means "not even in 'Beta' yet" will get the point across.

Viva
September 16th, 2009, 10:09 PM
i think sometimes people who are well-versed in the dark arts of windows consider themselves as computer experts and so imagine they are somehow invulnerable to alpha instability, in addition to the belief that an os is an os so their many years' experience in windows will transfer easily to linux.

You get these posts again and again (usually in general help rather than absolute beginners talk - these users would never consider themselves beginners!), where they bemoan the fact that their favourite windows applications will not work in ubuntu - as if it is proof that ubuntu is inadequate! I swear, so many of them don't know what linux is; don't even know what an operating system is!

Don't mistake my words for elitism, please. I was ignorant too. But i knew linux != windows some time before i ever installed it.

+1

etnlIcarus
September 17th, 2009, 02:14 AM
Some people think: Alpha > Beta

/thread

MaxIBoy
September 17th, 2009, 07:04 AM
I've been using all alpha-test operating systems for the past six months. I've never had any problems (except with FGLRX not supporting recent kernels.)

Udayakiran
September 17th, 2009, 04:13 PM
I think sometimes people who are well-versed in the dark arts of Windows consider themselves as computer experts and so imagine they are somehow invulnerable to alpha instability, in addition to the belief that an OS is an OS so their many years' experience in Windows will transfer easily to Linux.

You get these posts again and again (usually in General Help rather than Absolute Beginners Talk - these users would never consider themselves beginners!), where they bemoan the fact that their favourite Windows applications will not work in Ubuntu - as if it is proof that Ubuntu is inadequate! I swear, so many of them don't know what Linux is; don't even know what an operating system is!

Don't mistake my words for elitism, please. I was ignorant too. But I knew Linux != Windows some time before I ever installed it.

For some inexplicable reason, when i read the first 2 lines, i could feel the finger pointing at me. :P

When i first saw a linux distro's screen shots, i thought "The minimize button looks weird, but i can live with that". The distro was Ubuntu. The first thing i had to do to install an app was to open the terminal and update Synaptic. An hour later, i formatted it and went back to XP. But i couldn't give up that easily and came back a month later, tried almost every distro and finally settled for Ubuntu. Now i'm running a headless file server cum media server.

Now the reason why i'm telling all this is, i'm extremely bored and i felt like sharing my boredom with u all. Another reason is, t0p described very well what the attitude of self crowned 'windows experts' is. I was thinking the same way 3 years ago. I didnt know linux != windows when i first saw Ubuntu.

And t0p, "the dark arts of Windows" are much darker than you give credit to. Imagine having to disassemble DLLs, wade through registries and take memory and kernel dumps just to locate a single bug.

P.S.: I'll never consider myself a beginner. :biggrin:

ubongo2008
September 17th, 2009, 04:25 PM
Some people think: Alpha > Beta

in some cases the error itself is starring at the screen and is wondering why things just don't work

MasterNetra
September 17th, 2009, 04:51 PM
in some cases the error itself is starring at the screen and is wondering why things just don't work

What ya doing inside their monitor?! :lolflag:

dzon65
September 17th, 2009, 06:06 PM
It must be incredibly hot down under.....but,yes,you have a point.

ZarathustraDK
September 17th, 2009, 06:54 PM
in some cases the error itself is starring at the screen and is wondering why things just don't work

So true. People are used to errors being an impassť (things like blue-screen errors with info like allocated-memory-address XHUYBCxDUID2342-mumbo-jumbo written all over it).

I'm by no means an expert myself, but self-help/troubleshooting has gotten me all the way so far. Either I've figured out the problem or I have arrived at the adamant conclusion that whatever I'm trying to do simply isn't possible at the given time, all thanks to CLI-feedback, google and forums.

Then again don't blame them, they're used to alpha/beta/RC's being better than the final product, yes, Vista ;)

MikeTheC
September 18th, 2009, 05:57 AM
The OP is such a bad person now.

</sarcasm>

etnlIcarus
September 18th, 2009, 06:06 AM
It'd been a while since I'd done any troubleshooting on these forums (I routinely help PC users on a couple of other forums) so this thread inspired me to look and see if I could be of any assistance.

All I can say is, from the quality of advice being offered, I wouldn't blame anyone for giving up on linux. Oy vey. The majority of replies on the help forums look as if they were thought-through (I use that term loosely), typed and submitted in all of 10 seconds.

Edit: case in point (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1269133).

Bios Element
September 18th, 2009, 06:14 AM
It'd been a while since I'd done any troubleshooting on these forums (I routinely help PC users on a couple of other forums) so this thread inspired me to look and see if I could be of any assistance.

All I can say is, from the quality of advice being offered, I wouldn't blame anyone for giving up on linux. Oy vey. The majority of replies on the help forums look as if they were thought-through (I use that term loosely), typed and submitted in all of 10 seconds.

Edit: case in point (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1269133).

Next time I'll tell everyone not to bother helping at all and you alone can personally handle every single person who needs help ;) Or you can understand that there are lots of people to help and a short reply is better then no reply whatsoever.

etnlIcarus
September 18th, 2009, 06:18 AM
Next time I'll tell everyone not to bother helping at all and you alone can personally handle every single person who needs help ;) Or you can understand that there are lots of people to help and a short reply is better then no reply whatsoever.

Constructive post. Of course, threatening to take my soup away does nothing to undermine my point.

Exodist
September 18th, 2009, 06:26 AM
Well, to be honest, the tradition in GNU/Linux distros is that the "pre-release" versions, whether they're called alpha, testing, or whatever, serve as the rolling release version and are just as stable as the "real" release in 99% of the cases. Ubuntu is breaking this convention and confusing users.

Huh? I been using Linux since 1998. Never in the past 11 years has this EVER been the case. Sure some devs will work harder and hold a product longer at alpha stages longer before going beta (some if ever it seems). But they never ever released something from the start as alpha and it be rock stable.

So in my experience your comment is false.

MaxIBoy
September 18th, 2009, 08:01 AM
Huh? I been using Linux since 1998. Never in the past 11 years has this EVER been the case. Sure some devs will work harder and hold a product longer at alpha stages longer before going beta (some if ever it seems). But they never ever released something from the start as alpha and it be rock stable.

So in my experience your comment is false.
While I respect that you've been at this more than five times as long as me, I want to ask this because I'm genuinely curious: have you tried Debian's experimental repository lately? While you have to be careful about packages clashing, otherwise it's rock solid. Ditto for git-snapshot kernels.

moster
September 18th, 2009, 09:32 AM
But what makes me actually going to grind my teeth is the following:
People considering themselves new to the subject (linux in that matter or ubuntu in particular), taking up an alpha relase (such as karmic at the moment) and then start saying "it is still too buggy, cant use it relly good, going to change back to [whatever release or OS]".
I am ashamed that they do not need to write it in an angry form. For me to roll my eyes it sufficent to write this quite in an occasional manner.

I can try to explain this behaviour. People have poorly supported hardware. They waited let say 2 Ubuntu versions and they hardware is still have not enough good support. I too find it VERY frustrating when I have hardware from top 10 linux kernel contributors and they hardware is garbage in linux.

Even most patiently people would loose their temper over years of time. Only problem is that they tend to believe Ubuntu is guilty for that.

Look at intel for prime example what I am talking about. Of course, being in bed with microsoft for years, what could I expect...

edit: I miss point :)
People install one Ubuntu.. something do not work. Wait for next one.. still not work.. immediately install alpha of next version and still something do not work. and THEN they tell they what you said. Make sense? :)

Giant Speck
September 18th, 2009, 10:00 AM
People install one Ubuntu.. something do not work. Wait for next one.. still not work.. immediately install alpha of next version and still something do not work. and THEN they tell they what you said. Make sense? :)

I think I understand what you are saying and I'd like to add that I've seen quite a few times on these forums people having problems and being told "you should probably just wait for the next version or "hopefully that will be fixed in the next version."

Waiting and hoping doesn't really get much done. Filing bug reports and offering information and help to the developers gets things done much faster.

aktiwers
September 18th, 2009, 10:36 AM
I don't understand why people are concerned about these kind of questions.

Master Foo has all the answers:
http://catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/

Upon reading this, we were enlightened.