Questions in "Absolute Beginner Talk" that sort of bother you.

[earthpigg]

I go there to help out, and I do help.

some problems are recurring questions about things that can be intimidating to the new user, and i understand this. I'll toss my $0.02 in and hopefully help out. "what is a LiveCD?" and "what is a partition and how do i do it?"

i understand that stuff. if you are new, it is confusing!

however,

there are certain things that i am a bit tired of seeing. i will list a few, and list why. you are welcome to add your own. this will be a little venting-fest for me and my fellow community volunteers out there.

1. poster: "such-and-such 3d whatever does not work." helper: "are you running desktop effects?" poster: "yes." earthpigg: "compiz may be fun, but it is not stable software and very often interferes with other software (games, etc). end of story. disable it or accept GUI instability. i am sorry that Ubuntu considers it stable and led you into thinking it was, but i cannot change that. here is how you can disable compiz while you are playing games or doing other stuff..."

2. poster: "i resized my vista partition using gparted, and now it is broken." earthpigg: "gparted developers have stated here (#9) (http://gparted.sourceforge.net/faq.php) and here (search for the word 'lucky') (http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/using-gparted-to-resize-your-windows-vista-partition/) that gparted is not capable of reliably resizing vista partitions, end of story. i am sorry that Ubuntu considers this feature functional and led you to believe the same, but i cannot change that. here is how you can fix vista, which Ubuntu broke..."

3. poster: "i followed this random how-to guide posted by a complete stranger and ran 5 dozen 'sudo' commands that i do not understand. how come my system is now borked?" earthpigg: "....seriously?"

4. poster: "i chose automatic side-by-side install, and my system is messed up now." earthpigg: "yup, manual partitioning is the only stable and reliable option available to you during the install process. i am sorry that Ubuntu led you to believe otherwise. here is what you can do to fix it..."


i love ubuntu, and i find helping out very rewarding in general.

but nothing is perfect, including ubuntu. off the top of my head, these are four things that bother me, and i thought i would vent a bit here instead of taking out on new users or ceasing helping all together.

#3, obviously, cannot be blamed on Ubuntu. the first two and #4, i am not so sure about.

please contribute your own :D.

[SunnyRabbiera]

On the matter of compiz I personally find it quite stable

[earthpigg]

On the matter of compiz I personally find it quite stable

you are correct and i will not disagree with you: many people use unstable software for years and years and even decades without noticing a single issue.

others are not so lucky.

[oboedad55]

you are correct and i will not disagree with you: many people use unstable software for years and years and even decades without noticing a single issue.

others are not so lucky.

It's like the posts exclaiming the virtues of ext4. I use it on one distribution, but I keep things backed up and if things start going haywire I know where to start looking. FWIW, I took a look at your Masonux today. If I were installing on an old computer I would definitely give it a whirl as it seems very fast. Nice work.

--Jon

[lisati]

Poster: "I was installing package xyz and it told me to run dpkg --configure -a"
Lisati: (thinks) "Huh? Are you serious?" (Types in directions to the terminal to actually do it.)

[misfitpierce]

I find compiz to be stable enough to call stable though... Have yet to have a crash on multiple machines... Only thing that causes problems with it is the video drivers that some get, but I dont find it to be a program problem.

[earthpigg]

woot, someone was kind enough to provide an example:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7931359

[Screwdriver0815]

this one for example

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1263563

what the hell does he mean??

[Mornedhel]

I find compiz to be stable enough to call stable though... Have yet to have a crash on multiple machines... Only thing that causes problems with it is the video drivers that some get, but I dont find it to be a program problem.

Crashing, maybe not, but it definitely doesn't play nice with many 3D applications/games.

My personal gripe is "I did this and this. Now the system is telling me something happened, and I don't want to know what it means, but I want you to tell me how to fix it, even though there is a message just one line under the error telling me how to do that, and when you tell me to read that message and do what it says, I'll accuse you and the general community of being unhelpful, and Linux of being not user-friendly, and that it needs to conform to my own personal needs before it can conquer the world, which is what you technical people/nerds that never ever leave their parents' basements all want, but help me anyway"

Or a variation thereof.

[Screwdriver0815]

My personal gripe is "I did this and this. Now the system is telling me something happened, and I don't want to know what it means, but I want you to tell me how to fix it, even though there is a message just one line under the error telling me how to do that, and when you tell me to read that message and do what it says, I'll accuse you and the general community of being unhelpful, and Linux of being not user-friendly, and that it needs to conform to my own personal needs before it can conquer the world, which is what you technical people/nerds that never ever leave their parents' basements all want, but help me anyway"

Or a variation thereof.

LMFAO :D

great! its also my favourite :lolflag:

[benj1]

perhaps a 'known issues' sticky would be a good idea for this sort of thing along with fixes etc.

[3rdalbum]

compiz may be fun, but it is not stable software and very often interferes with other software (games, etc). end of story. disable it or accept GUI instability. i am sorry that Ubuntu considers it stable and led you into thinking it was, but i cannot change that. here is how you can disable compiz while you are playing games or doing other stuff...[/COLOR]"

You only need to disable Compiz while using 3D games, if you have an ATI card. That's not Ubuntu's fault. It works perfectly for everyone who doesn't have an ATI card.


gparted is not capable of reliably resizing vista partitions, end of story. i am sorry that Ubuntu considers this feature functional and led you to believe the same, but i cannot change that. here is how you can fix vista, which Ubuntu broke...

Already done it twice with no problems. "Vista partitions" are just NTFS which we've been able to resize for years.


yup, manual partitioning is the only stable and reliable option available to you during the install process. i am sorry that Ubuntu led you to believe otherwise. here is what you can do to fix it...

I almost never do manual partitioning.

Are you sure you're using Ubuntu and not Windows XP?

My pet hate is when new users ask "I just installed Ubuntu and I'm trying to install updates, and it gives me an error message about 'no space left on device' or something like that. How can I fix this?" Well, you could try reinstalling Ubuntu, and this time you could actually allocate it some disk space...

[koleoptero]

perhaps a 'known issues' sticky would be a good idea for this sort of thing along with fixes etc.

That would be equal to most people using the search button, which is absolutely horrible to most new users of these forums, as history has proved over and over and over again. I visit the absolute beginners forum to try and help but either I don't know what they are talking about, or I spend a tremendous amount of effort in trying to not post lmgtfy.com links.

Not that I would be much of a help anyway with what little knowledge I possess.

[t0p]

perhaps a 'known issues' sticky would be a good idea for this sort of thing along with fixes etc.

A sticky containing just the words


Google Is Your Friendwould help. If anyone took it in. Which they wouldn't.

EDIT: What koleoptero said about this site's awful search function is right. Using Google with site:ubuntuforums.org is often much better. But a forum newbie won't know that.

[benj1]

That would be equal to most people using the search button, which is absolutely horrible to most new users of these forums, as history has proved over and over and over again. I visit the absolute beginners forum to try and help but either I don't know what they are talking about, or I spend a tremendous amount of effort in trying to not post lmgtfy.com links.

Not that I would be much of a help anyway with what little knowledge I possess.

i think it would be quite useful, example ive been using crunchbang 9.04 (based on ubuntu) it was running slow but 8.04 runs fine, after searching around through non related issues on older releases etc i finally managed to find a fix, but it wasn't exactly straight forward, involving finding what the problem actually was in launchpad then finding the fix here, a list of issues per release would be easier to navigate, it also allows you to gather the best fix from the half dozen floating about.
i do agree some people dont google enough but sometimes google isnt very good if youre trying to find the solution to a generic problem, if your systems sluggish when you know it shouldnt be where do you start ?

[benj1]

A sticky containing just the words


perhaps a 'known issues' sticky would be a good idea for this sort of thing along with fixes etc.

[nothingspecial]

My personal gripe is "I did this and this. Now the system is telling me something happened, and I don't want to know what it means, but I want you to tell me how to fix it, even though there is a message just one line under the error telling me how to do that, and when you tell me to read that message and do what it says, I'll accuse you and the general community of being unhelpful, and Linux of being not user-friendly, and that it needs to conform to my own personal needs before it can conquer the world, which is what you technical people/nerds that never ever leave their parents' basements all want, but help me anyway"

Or a variation thereof.

Those are the ones that bother me.

Some amuse me though I`ll try and help if I can.

I accidentally installed Ubuntu over the whole hard drive and deleted all my Dad`s work

I`ve just lost all my music/photos/etc how do I get them back
Use your backups duh

I have to say I am guilty of that one myself (http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-929924.html)

I accidentally removed /some/system/critical/directory

I accidentally removed all my kernels

When I say amuse, I don`t mean it in a bad way, I just mean in a kind of how the **** have you managed to do that kind of way.

For balance, another stupid thing I`ve done (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7185337)

[stwschool]

you are correct and i will not disagree with you: many people use unstable software for years and years and even decades without noticing a single issue.

others are not so lucky.
You have a strange attitude. Compiz works just fine for me on NVIDIA, and is getting better on ATI. It's a little slow but workable on my intel machines. Overall, no problem.

Repartitioning, I've used side by side for easily 100 installs without problems. That suggests to me where the problem lies.

You seem to be going out of your way to be unhelpful to newbies here.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I go there to help out, and I do help.

some problems are recurring questions about things that can be intimidating to the new user, and i understand this. I'll toss my $0.02 in and hopefully help out. "what is a LiveCD?" and "what is a partition and how do i do it?"

i understand that stuff. if you are new, it is confusing!

however,

there are certain things that i am a bit tired of seeing. i will list a few, and list why. you are welcome to add your own. this will be a little venting-fest for me and my fellow community volunteers out there.

1. poster: "such-and-such 3d whatever does not work." helper: "are you running desktop effects?" poster: "yes." earthpigg: "compiz may be fun, but it is not stable software and very often interferes with other software (games, etc). end of story. disable it or accept GUI instability. i am sorry that Ubuntu considers it stable and led you into thinking it was, but i cannot change that. here is how you can disable compiz while you are playing games or doing other stuff..."

2. poster: "i resized my vista partition using gparted, and now it is broken." earthpigg: "gparted developers have stated here (#9) (http://gparted.sourceforge.net/faq.php) and here (search for the word 'lucky') (http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/using-gparted-to-resize-your-windows-vista-partition/) that gparted is not capable of reliably resizing vista partitions, end of story. i am sorry that Ubuntu considers this feature functional and led you to believe the same, but i cannot change that. here is how you can fix vista, which Ubuntu broke..."

3. poster: "i followed this random how-to guide posted by a complete stranger and ran 5 dozen 'sudo' commands that i do not understand. how come my system is now borked?" earthpigg: "....seriously?"

4. poster: "i chose automatic side-by-side install, and my system is messed up now." earthpigg: "yup, manual partitioning is the only stable and reliable option available to you during the install process. i am sorry that Ubuntu led you to believe otherwise. here is what you can do to fix it..."


i love ubuntu, and i find helping out very rewarding in general.

but nothing is perfect, including ubuntu. off the top of my head, these are four things that bother me, and i thought i would vent a bit here instead of taking out on new users or ceasing helping all together.

#3, obviously, cannot be blamed on Ubuntu. the first two and #4, i am not so sure about.

please contribute your own :D.


I can well understand how it can become aggravating as I have found various tutorials simply by using the 'Search' facility. However, I think the clue lies in "Absolute Beginners"!! of which I am one.

No-one will learn if they don't ask. A sig I saw on another forum states "He who asks is a fool for five minutes. He who doesn't ask is a fool forever"

Food for thought.

R.

[zer010]

As a newbie, I find that google is supremely better at finding info versus the in-forum search utility. Good google sites invariably lead to the forum.

[Mornedhel]

No-one will learn if they don't ask. A sig I saw on another forum states "He who asks is a fool for five minutes. He who doesn't ask is a fool forever"

"He who does not learn to search by himself first will be a fool for five minutes, every five minutes"

[DougieFresh4U]

Had Google Earth running great last nite with out having to disable compiz
Any ways, what always gets me are the 'descriptive' help titles such as:
I need help quick

[HappyFeet]

"Where can I download ubuntu?" is one of my favs.

[gn2]

None of us came to this forum knowing what we know now.

Questions in AB talk don't bother me at all.

[benj1]

"Where can I download ubuntu?" is one of my favs.

i saw 'how do i post?' once

[desperado665]

i saw 'how do i post?' once

lol...

[Chronon]

perhaps a 'known issues' sticky would be a good idea for this sort of thing along with fixes etc.

Except, people rarely read stickies. If they read stickies then they probably already search for previously posted questions, google for information, etc.

[benj1]

Except, people rarely read stickies. If they read stickies then they probably already search for previously posted questions, google for information, etc.

that is true but at least we could say 'rtfs'

plus it would be a central place to put problems and solutions, launchpad doesn't necessarily have solutions, even if it said 'theres no known solutions' you don't spend 5 hours searching through obscure posts from the deepest darkest depth of the internet.

[Mr Bean]

When people want help on one specific issue the last thing they are going to do is read a bunch of stickies, because stickies usually always say "this is what you have to read first, then you have to read that, and we won't help you if you don't read such and such" Nothing turns a new user off quicker.

Often they need a bunch of background information that they just don't want to put in the time to read. This is where forums, and getting help from a live person, comes in handy. If they can put in the time to learn this background information after the problem is fixed, fantastic, but they WONT put in the time to learn it before the problem is fixed. People are lazy, and when they have a problem they put the blinkers on and ignore anything that doesn't appear to be an immediate solution.

That said, a 5 minute Google will give most beginners the answers they need, and they really should search for suitable "how-to" guides at the very least.

[RabbitWho]

I am an absolute beginner myself.. so the only thing that bugs me is when people get angry at linux or at the people trying to help them because of something they themselves have done wrong or don't have the patience to read about.
Or when they just say outright "I hate how you can't X on ubuntu" when X is something really obvious and simple.

[Chronon]

that is true but at least we could say 'rtfs'

plus it would be a central place to put problems and solutions, launchpad doesn't necessarily have solutions, even if it said 'theres no known solutions' you don't spend 5 hours searching through obscure posts from the deepest darkest depth of the internet.

Well, maybe a sticky that gives advice about using descriptive thread titles, searching the forums and the web before posting, clearly describing what you have done and what confuses you, etc. would be good.

I think what you're describing would quickly turn into a mega sticky and would become quite difficult to navigate. Is someone going to maintain it so that all relevant material is in the first post? If so, it has to be the topic starter or a forum mod. Will people have to read all posts in a 35 page topic? How will outdated material be removed?

I think a wiki is much better for this sort of thing because it can be kept up to date by anybody with an account and you don't end up with potentially multiple versions of the same advice repeated throughout a topic. There's already help.ubuntu.com, which can apparently be edited by anybody with a launchpad account. Personally, I think it would be better to have less how-tos in the forums and to centralize them in a wiki.

[Mr Bean]

+1 on the Wiki

forums are inherently hard to organise.

[blur xc]

Had Google Earth running great last nite with out having to disable compiz
Any ways, what always gets me are the 'descriptive' help titles such as:
I need help quick

I run Google Earth w/ Compiz all the time and never ever noticed or heard anywhere that they had issues playing together. But, I run a good Nvidia card, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Now, I was the first poster to a "EVERYONE NEEDS TO READ THIS!! EXTREMELY IMPORTANT" post one time on another forum, which turned out to be some stupid question that could have been found in 3 seconds w/ a simple search. I quickly derailed his thread, which got to be a few hundred posts long of nothing but total random junk. Justice is great- and I'm sure that poster learned his lesson.


BM

[Screwdriver0815]

When people want help on one specific issue the last thing they are going to do is read a bunch of stickies, because stickies usually always say "this is what you have to read first, then you have to read that, and we won't help you if you don't read such and such" Nothing turns a new user off quicker.

this sounds similar to "our lifes depend on new users"... people should search. The one who searches is the one who finds. The one who just sits there and waits for things to happen, is the one who loses.

The main problem is in my opinion, that people in other issues know how to google and to search for solutions but for issues with operating systems they are not used to searching. Why? I don't know. Maybe they think, operating systems are "full-service"...

My experience in the german ubuntuusers.de is that you ALWAYS find a solution for your problems by searching. Either in the forums or in the wiki.
Because the userbase of Ubuntu is so huge that most likely someone had this problem or a similar one before.

And even when one posts a topic which was asked 100 times before, in the german ubuntuusers they get links to the wiki and to old threads. Thats it. Thats not unfriendly or rude, this guiding people and educating them to behave in the right way.

I think there should be something like educating people how to get information.
But how? Maybe there should be a guide which pops right in the face after the first install.
It needs to be intrusive like a virus alert and should have no possibility to cancel it somehow, otherwise people don't recognise it.