WGA is "spyware"... but Microsoft is great, yeah?

[t0p]

Microsoft is not evil. They just do real bad things... (http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/09/07/1955217/Lawsuit-Claims-WGA-Is-Spyware?art_pos=1)


'Microsoft this week was sued in a Washington district court for allegedly violating privacy laws through Windows XP's Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) copy protection scheme. Similar to cases filed in 2006, the new class action case accuses Microsoft of falsely representing what information WGA would send to verify the authenticity of Windows and that it would send back information [daily IP address and other details that could be used to trace information back to a home or user]. The complaint further argued that Microsoft portrayed WGA as a necessary security update rather than acknowledge its copy protection nature in the update. WGA's implementation also prevented users from purging the protection from their PCs without completely reformatting a computer's system drive.'

[BuffaloX]

microsoft is not evil. they just do real bad things... (http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/09/07/1955217/lawsuit-claims-wga-is-spyware?art_pos=1)

:p

[MikeTheC]

Microsoft with so much of what they do -- WGA garbage among them -- and Sony and their rootkits and other predatory behavior.

No use for either company.

[samjh]

Good. The sooner Microsoft learns to properly serve its customers and not treat them like criminals, the better.

IMO, they should just ditch the WGA. Validate during install with a key code and be done with it!

[yabbadabbadont]

The thing is that, even with all the law suits and government interventions, it must still be more profitable to do such things than to not. They are in business to make money after all. Of course, that doesn't mean that it is morally correct to do so.

[samjh]

Microsoft is well within its rights to protect its intellectual property. But that has to be balanced with consumer rights as well. Microsoft just tips the balance too much in their favour.

[kevdog]

Thank god there exists WGA patches :)

[MikeTheC]

I only deal with Microsoft to the extent that I absolutely have to. As far as they are otherwise concerned, they can stay the heck out of my life, and I wouldn't shed a tear if they were razed to the ground tomorrow.

In fact, as far as I'm concerned, the sooner the better.

[coldReactive]

I always knew this would happen.

[MasterNetra]

Microsoft is well within its rights to protect its intellectual property. But that has to be balanced with consumer rights as well. Microsoft just tips the balance too much in their favour.

Needlessly to say such attempts are pretty much in vain as hackers & pirates just find some other way of cracking it. M$ should just stick to the serial thing, its as the old saying goes. "Locks just keep honest people honest."

[samjh]

M$ should just stick to the serial thing...
Or charge more reasonable prices for Windows. Even better, open source the thing. Microsoft Windows Community Edition for home and casual users, and Commercial Edition for the enterprise with extra features and support. Viola! They smash Linux and recruit an army of volunteer developers.

But no... at least not until Ballmer and Gates are gone from the business.

[andras artois]

It's shame that with how powerful microsoft are they aren't doing something better. With all the resources they have they could have pushed the progression of OS's a lot further but instead they're slowing it down.

[coldReactive]

But no... at least not until Ballmer and Gates are gone from the business.

Too bad Gates quit Microsoft last year.

[RabbitWho]

I hope it costs Microsoft millions.

When you buy a computer it is yours and you should be able to do whatever you want with it.. those things can still be illegal, but monitoring what people do, or disabling abilities is like putting up security cameras in a persons home or shock collars around their necks.




But no... at least not until Ballmer and Gates are gone from the business.

Surely Gates is gone?

[Whiffle]

It's shame that with how powerful microsoft are they aren't doing something better. With all the resources they have they could have pushed the progression of OS's a lot further but instead they're slowing it down.

The thing is, Microsoft is a corporation, and the primary function of such a business is to make money for its investors by developing a product. And it just so happens to be that the people in charge over there think that whatever they are doing is the best way of going about that. I'm sure we all disagree with them, but thats how they see it and I doubt anyone is going to change that. And honestly, it looks like its working out pretty well so far.

On the other hand, they're using a pretty old business model, developed well before open source became a force to reckon with, and before people really started paying attention. Only time will tell if it is still a good model.

In any case, I don't think Microsoft will come screeching to a halt at any point, as they have many other products besides Windows (like Office, which has very few real competitors, and so far none that match the power of it).

[marchwarden]

Or charge more reasonable prices for Windows.

In my opinion, I don't see that making a significant difference. I believe that the vast majority of people that buy Windows, buy it with a computer and perceive it to be free (maybe this is how many justify pirating the software?). To many the cost represents the value of the tangible hardware, we have great difficulty in valuing intangible items to the extent that we tend not to value them at all.

[coldReactive]

In my opinion, I don't see that making a significant difference. I believe that the vast majority of people that buy Windows, buy it with a computer and perceive it to be free (maybe this is how many justify pirating the software?). To many the cost represents the value of the tangible hardware, we have great difficulty in valuing intangible items to the extent that we tend not to value them at all.

Companies that ship windows with their computers don't give you Recovery CDs anymore, they require you to make them yourself (some computers don't even come with a Recovery CD Creator), buy one from geek squad, or suffer non-returnability.

[marchwarden]

Companies that ship windows with their computers don't give you Recovery CDs anymore, they require you to make them yourself (some computers don't even come with a Recovery CD Creator), buy one from geek squad, or suffer non-returnability.

Yes, which (per my argument above) further "devalues" Windows in the eye of the consumer, there's no tangible media.

[sideaway]

I wouldn't shed a tear if they were razed to the ground tomorrow.

Actually you probably would. A lot of MS dependencies would crash and burn in a matter of days or weeks. That's more than you might think. If all MS server communication just stopped over night... Major damages, job loss and loss of revenue would be catastrophic... Google and IBM would be the only two who could possibly do anything about it.

[LowSky]

People wonder why Windows cost so much, take a course in Micro Economics and you will know why. Its called Supply and Demand, and with a Monopoly they have to charge higher prices to fend off other companies and continual upkeep.

And lets not forget why they have a monopoly, business needs standards, too many formats make getting any work done very hard. Windows made things easy for companies and in turn regular people as well. Without Windows the home computer market might not have taken off like it did.

[swoll1980]

I want to know why it's not on the front page of the newspapers. This huge multinational corporation is illegally harvesting information from hundreds of millions of people, and you have to go to some obscure geek site to hear about it. If Perris Hilton violates her probation it's on every news program in the country. I hate this planet.

[coldReactive]

I want to know why it's not on the front page of the newspapers. This huge multinational corporation is illegally harvesting information from hundreds of millions of people, and you have to go to some obscure geek site to hear about it. If Perris Hilton violates her probation it's on every news program in the country. I hate this planet.

http://sendables.jibjab.com/originals/what_we_call_the_news

[marchwarden]

People wonder why Windows cost so much, take a course in Micro Economics and you will know why. Its called Supply and Demand, and with a Monopoly they have to charge higher prices to fend off other companies and continual upkeep.

A monopoly is typically a price setter, not a price taker. It does not raise prices to fend off competition, if anything it would reduce prices to fend off competition. What you are suggesting, isn't rational IMO.

[sideaway]

The IT world has other variables that aren't taken into account by simple economics, you need to do advanced coporate economics to get to grips with it. It has more in common with macro rather than micro.

[marchwarden]

The IT world has other variables that aren't taken into account by simple economics, you need to do advanced coporate economics to get to grips with it. It has more in common with macro rather than micro.

Not sure that I get your point. :confused:

Micro-economics is about understanding resource allocation by households and firms and it's effects on demand and supply in industries and product markets, where as macro-economics is about the understanding aggregate economic activity at a national/regional level. Corporate economics is micro-economics, yes it may rely heavily on macro-economic influences and some understanding of those influences, but the analysis of price is still at the micro-economic level. The distinction between macro and micro is dependent on what is measured, not how it is measured.

[evermooingcow]

I personally don't want anything to do with WGA but I also know more than just a few people who would read this and say "so what if MS knew my IP"?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I remember, some time ago, an internet acquaintance saying that MS would do a lot better if they put as much time and energy into their R&D as they did in trying to scupper the opposition!!

[Methuselah]

There is a simple way around WGA:

http://www.linux.com

[Maheriano]

I realized this the very first time I saw this notification about 5 years ago, people are only figuring it out now? People are dumb.

[Screwdriver0815]

Actually you probably would. A lot of MS dependencies would crash and burn in a matter of days or weeks. That's more than you might think. If all MS server communication just stopped over night... Major damages, job loss and loss of revenue would be catastrophic... Google and IBM would be the only two who could possibly do anything about it.

just a short question: does a Chevy stop immediatly when GM goes bancrupt? No? So does a server when Micrsoft is bancrupt ;) And when there are no updates available anymore, Novell, Red Hat, Canonical, Debian, Slackware... and so on will be more than happy to help to get the system up and running again, with a proper operating system, of course.
No problem at all...

ah wait... maybe some problems: all the companies, who were stupid enough to use proprietary Microsoft-file formats could run into trouble at some day. Not immediatly but some day ahead... hmm its their fault... and their misery.

[modmadmike]

http://www.stefanoforenza.com/has-torvalds-finally-won/
LOL ^^

[BoyOfDestiny]

just a short question: does a Chevy stop immediatly when GM goes bancrupt? No? So does a server when Micrsoft is bancrupt ;) And when there are no updates available anymore, Novell, Red Hat, Canonical, Debian, Slackware... and so on will be more than happy to help to get the system up and running again, with a proper operating system, of course.
No problem at all...

ah wait... maybe some problems: all the companies, who were stupid enough to use proprietary Microsoft-file formats could run into trouble at some day. Not immediatly but some day ahead... hmm its their fault... and their misery.

I agree, but Microsoft has more control over Windows nowadays than you give credit.

It's worth noting that there was a WGA malfunction a couple of years ago.

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2007/08/microsoft-12000-systems-affected-by-wga-outage.ars

Since newer Windows needs to authenticate with Microsoft to function, in this way MS has a kill switch built in. It could then disable Windows machines if MS servers aren't there (however, there are unofficial workarounds and patches since well, hackers are smart.)

Hmm, there is also reduced functionality mode, just googled it, MS has some nice details on it.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/925582
I think they should advertise this as a feature.

I haven't used it lately, but I have xp sp2 in qemu image (this is before WGA was mandatory) So that can keep running.

If anything it would be great. Proprietary software companies can patch up their software to work with wine (and even supply wine patches). Other companies can switch to wine or VMs, run their software indefinitely,

Suddenly no more forced upgrades of MS Windows and Office.

Hardware manufacturers could focus on hardware for once, and just give driver specs code for the linux kernel or what have you.

If something important can screech to a halt because of Windows, it should be replaced anyway.
http://www.ktgdenver.com/server-crashes-london-stock-exchange-dumps-windows

Anyway, MS won't disappear in a day, it'll be a slow gradual process, if that. So no worries.
Is WGA spyware? Yes as it fits the definition perfectly. If you are okay with it, then keep on using Windows. Feel reassured that MS is looking out for you, the paying customer. ;)

[t0p]

An interesting scenario: Bill runs Vista on his home pc. He wants the latest version of Microsoft Office but he can't afford it/doesn't want to pay for it. So he downloads a "cracked" version from somewhere and tries to install it.

WGA sees that the "cracked" version isn't kosher. So it won't allow the installation. And it reports Bill to the Copyright Police!! I think such an action is well within WGA's capability.

Another scenario: Steve runs Vista on his home pc. He likes rock music but doesn't like paying for it. So he downloads some tunes via bittorrent or another p2p service. WGA sees what he's doing, and alerts the RIAA!! I'm sure WGA could do this.

We're all familiar with the concept of spyware phoning home with info about you. But what about spyware as informer? Hasn't anyone developed this idea?

Up til now I've steered clear of Microsoft product because I don't like it. But in the future, I'll refuse to install it because it scares me! Yikes! :o

[-grubby]

An interesting scenario: Bill runs Vista on his home pc. He wants the latest version of Microsoft Office but he can't afford it/doesn't want to pay for it. So he downloads a "cracked" version from somewhere and tries to install it.

WGA sees that the "cracked" version isn't kosher. So it won't allow the installation. And it reports Bill to the Copyright Police!! I think such an action is well within WGA's capability.

So, you think software that reports you for pirating/stealing it is wrong?

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

I actually thank Microsoft for the WGA and DRM stuff. They made me feel like they thought I was a criminal until proven innocent. That is the main reason I looked for alternatives. When I did, I discovered the alternatives were free more often than not. I accept people that choose to use Microsoft Windows. Most of the people I know do. That is their choice. I do not try to convert them. However, I chose otherwise for my own needs.

When I started using computers Microsoft didn't exist. Even Word Perfect didn't exist. If you wanted a word processor, other that an ASCII text editor, you wrote it yourself. You also shared your code with anyone that wanted to use it. They could modify it to their liking, and use that. No one thought about patents, copyrights, or licenses back them. I personally think the GPL was invented to protect our free software from being stolen and patented by big corporations. Linux brought me back to those times; however, I can not contribute anything in the way of code. I haven't written a single line of code in 2 decades. We wrote code in Fortran, Basic, assembly language, or machine code back them. My contributions are limited to testing release candidates, and providing occasional help on these forums.

[Screwdriver0815]

I agree, but Microsoft has more control over Windows nowadays than you give credit.

It's worth noting that there was a WGA malfunction a couple of years ago.

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2007/08/microsoft-12000-systems-affected-by-wga-outage.ars

Since newer Windows needs to authenticate with Microsoft to function, in this way MS has a kill switch built in. It could then disable Windows machines if MS servers aren't there (however, there are unofficial workarounds and patches since well, hackers are smart.)

Hmm, there is also reduced functionality mode, just googled it, MS has some nice details on it.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/925582
I think they should advertise this as a feature.

I haven't used it lately, but I have xp sp2 in qemu image (this is before WGA was mandatory) So that can keep running.

If anything it would be great. Proprietary software companies can patch up their software to work with wine (and even supply wine patches). Other companies can switch to wine or VMs, run their software indefinitely,

Suddenly no more forced upgrades of MS Windows and Office.

Hardware manufacturers could focus on hardware for once, and just give driver specs code for the linux kernel or what have you.

If something important can screech to a halt because of Windows, it should be replaced anyway.
http://www.ktgdenver.com/server-crashes-london-stock-exchange-dumps-windows

Anyway, MS won't disappear in a day, it'll be a slow gradual process, if that. So no worries.
Is WGA spyware? Yes as it fits the definition perfectly. If you are okay with it, then keep on using Windows. Feel reassured that MS is looking out for you, the paying customer. ;)
okay, looking at this from a different prospecive, I'd say: the Microsoft guys are so called "clever" (in their way) because with all these mechanisms they have an anti-bancruptcy insurance.

The companies who were stupid enough to invest in MS-fileformats will be happy to throw millions of dollars onto Microsoft when they go bancrupt. Because otherwise all these companies would lose much more money than they spend then on Microsoft for a let's say "Microsoft survival and safe our data fund".
This is one of the moments when I think to myself: "how can one be so stupid and jail himself into such a prison of depending on one company?"...

[Screwdriver0815]

I actually thank Microsoft for the WGA and DRM stuff. They made me feel like they thought I was a criminal until proven innocent. That is the main reason I looked for alternatives. When I did, I discovered the alternatives were free more often than not. I accept people that choose to use Microsoft Windows. Most of the people I know do. That is their choice. I do not try to convert them. However, I chose otherwise for my own needs.

When I started using computers Microsoft didn't exist. Even Word Perfect didn't exist. If you wanted a word processor, other that an ASCII text editor, you wrote it yourself. You also shared your code with anyone that wanted to use it. They could modify it to their liking, and use that. No one thought about patents, copyrights, or licenses back them. I personally think the GPL was invented to protect our free software from being stolen and patented by big corporations. Linux brought me back to those times; however, I can not contribute anything in the way of code. I haven't written a single line of code in 2 decades. We wrote code in Fortran, Basic, assembly language, or machine code back them. My contributions are limited to testing release candidates, and providing occasional help on these forums.

I grew up with Windows 95. And I hated it from the beginning. The journey went by Windows Me and xp. And I always thought to myself "there must be another way of using a computer, without serial numbers, without "phoneing home" and so on" And I found Linux.

I also can not do much for contribution. I do some translation work. And this is good for education:

1.) learning english (you never stop doing that)

2. when you translate the help and supportfiles, you have to read them... ;)

this is great about Linux. Because you do something useful and for the community and learn something for yourself at the same time.

:guitar:

[aikiwolfie]

Like other people I refuse to allow Microsoft to tell me what to do with my PC. I also hate the idea of Microsoft spying on me. I don't do anything illegal. But I sure as hell don't want Microsoft tracking my every move. I also don't see the point in buying a new PC every other year when my existing PC works just fine.

None of the new features in Windows 7 will bring any great benefit to users over Windows XP. Which is the main reason Vista failed. So why bother?

[sydbat]

just a short question: does a Chevy stop immediatly when GM goes bancrupt? No? So does a server when Micrsoft is bancrupt ;) And when there are no updates available anymore, Novell, Red Hat, Canonical, Debian, Slackware... and so on will be more than happy to help to get the system up and running again, with a proper operating system, of course.
No problem at all...

ah wait... maybe some problems: all the companies, who were stupid enough to use proprietary Microsoft-file formats could run into trouble at some day like they do today when Microsoft changes their own file formats and screw things up themselves. Not immediatly but some day ahead... hmm its their fault... and their misery.There...fixed it for you...