Windows Refund...Anyone ever get it?

[chessnerd]

There is a little known part of the Windows EULA that says that, if you don't want Windows on your computer, that you can return it to the manufacturer for a refund.

That said, I was reading online and came across some articles like this one (http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/59381) and I'm wondering: has anyone here ever gotten, or at least tried to get, a refund for Windows?

[j7%<RmUg]

Nope iv just laughed at the people who are dumb enough to actually buy it in the first place.

[chessnerd]

Nope iv just laughed at the people who are dumb enough to actually buy it in the first place.

Unfortunately there usually isn't an option to not buy it. Go to Best Buy sometime and ask if you can buy a computer with Linux on it. If they don't give you the "what the heck is Linux" look you'll likely get the "sorry man, I wish the world was a different place" look from a fellow Linux fan.

[Johnsie]

I'm a professional programmer. I try not to let the politics of operating systems get in the way of my business interests. I also don't want to give Linux a bad reputation by being the annoying legalisitic smart-*** argumentative customer that every employee hates. If I wanted an computer with no OS I wouldn't order a Windows one in the first place. I'd order a non-OS computer or I'd build my own. I'm not gonna make people think "wow, these Linux people are really annoying/stupid"

[Rhubarb]

I tried to get a Windows refund early this year from Asus.
After 2 months of phone calls to Asus (Australia), and getting different reasons of saying "no", and a few emails, I gave up.

Ironically after calling Microsoft (Australia) they also said no (understandably, as they're not the manufacturer), but Microsoft were the nicest to speak with over the phone, and did actually understand what I was asking for.

During this 2 month period I was at work, and didn't have that much time to hassle them, so perhaps if there is a next time I'll try harder.

I even had photos of me declining the EULA.

I did take a photo of the part of the EULA that states that you're entitled to a refund from the manufacturer if you decline it. - This is the most important part for me, as it made it a lot harder for the ill-prepared / mis-informed Asus call center team to refute my arguments.

But as I mentioned before, I simply gave up and diverted some of my spare time to more constructive open source efforts / projects.

[Paqman]

If I wanted an computer with no OS I wouldn't order a Windows one in the first place. I'd order a non-OS computer or I'd build my own.

That's fair enough for desktops, etc but not really an option for laptops. The number of OS-free or Linux-preinstalled laptops available is tiny (or zero in some countries). Realistically you have to shop on the Windows market to get a reasonable range of features and price.

[speedwell68]

I tried earlier this year with Acer. Frist I contacted Microsoft UK and asked directly for a refund for the unused Vista licence that came with my PC. I never even booted the machine under Vista, I inserted a pre-prepared Ubuntu USB stick and hit F12 on first start. Anyway I digress, Microsoft were very helpful and they informed my that the only reason they would not give me a refund is that I had actually purchased Windows from Acer and any refund was to be issued by them. I checked this with my local trading standards department and they confirmed that my contract did infact exist with Acer. So I contacted Acer and asked them for a refund and they told me that it is clearly stated in their terms and conditions that the software provided with the machine was on an as is basis and they do not warrant it in anyway. Acer also told me that I was not infact charged for Vista, it was bundled free of charge.

[s.fox]

Acer also told me that I was not infact charged for Vista, it was bundled free of charge.

I suppose that is one way around the EULA. :D

[mikewhatever]

Here is a thread to help you http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1222056. Apparently, sometimes it's not as hard as it seems.

[kailkitsune]

in order to get the refund you must buy it directly from microsoft it self. its just like any other store, if you buy a computer and want a refund on windows, it isnt going to happen (unless you buy a computer from microsoft, i dont know if that even possible never tryed to find out). so unless you wanna give the computer back to get your refund i sudgest you give up. cuz it ante gonna happen unless you buy the window install cd (and why whold you do that in the first place).

[speedwell68]

in order to get the refund you must buy it directly from microsoft it self. its just like any other store, if you buy a computer and want a refund on windows, it isnt going to happen (unless you buy a computer from microsoft, i dont know if that even possible never tryed to find out). so unless you wanna give the computer back to get your refund i sudgest you give up. cuz it ante gonna happen unless you buy the window install cd (and why whold you do that in the first place).

I agree. The OEMs have got this little one stitched right up. They will just take the line that Acer took with me. One little thing is that if you never boot your new Windows machine under Windows and register the product Microsoft will not rack up another user to bolster their usage statistics.

[Johnsie]

Paqman, you're right there. I never really took laptops into consideration. It is very hard to get a Linux laptop let alone a blank one. I'm always afraid to use Ubuntu on laptops because two of mine burnt out and my current netbook runs very hot when I use Ubuntu.

[speedwell68]

Paqman, you're right there. I never really took laptops into consideration. It is very hard to get a Linux laptop let alone a blank one. I'm always afraid to use Ubuntu on laptops because two of mine burnt out and my current netbook runs very hot when I use Ubuntu.

Which particular netbook and which particular flavour of Ubuntu are you using on it. Both UNR and Easy Peasy work very well on my Acer One. In fact I have gone over to Xubuntu on mine and that works very well too. However I found full blown Ubuntu did give me heat issues.

[Johnsie]

I'm using an Advent 4123. Full blown worked ok on my EEEPC, but I think the Advent is running a wee bit hotter than I would be happy with. In terms of performance it runs very well, just hotly. Unfortunately from previous experience I know that hotness directly affects the lifetime of the hardware.

[t0p]

in order to get the refund you must buy it directly from microsoft it self. its just like any other store, if you buy a computer and want a refund on windows, it isnt going to happen.

Do Microsoft sell computers? I thought Microsoft was a software and games console manufacturing business.

[Paqman]

Do Microsoft sell computers? I thought Microsoft was a software and games console manufacturing business.

You can buy a boxed copy of Windows. They do sell some hardware, too. Stuff like mice and keyboards are often branded Microsoft.

[pwnst*r]

Nope iv just laughed at the people who are dumb enough to actually buy it in the first place.

**golf clap**

[speedwell68]

You can buy a boxed copy of Windows. They do sell some hardware, too. Stuff like mice and keyboards are often branded Microsoft.

Microsoft actually make some very good keyboards and mice, I am typing this on one now. Can't stand their OS, but I wouldn't be without my MS Comfort Curve 2000.:D

[mikewhatever]

in order to get the refund you must buy it directly from microsoft it self. its just like any other store, if you buy a computer and want a refund on windows, it isnt going to happen (unless you buy a computer from microsoft, i dont know if that even possible never tryed to find out). so unless you wanna give the computer back to get your refund i sudgest you give up. cuz it ante gonna happen unless you buy the window install cd (and why whold you do that in the first place).

Keep saying 'it's not going to happen' may be very self convincing, but doesn't make things the way you presented. Have you even looked at the link I posted? That's what MS and computer vendors want you to believe, and it's crucial not to make let them make the decision for you. The fact is, it can be done.

[mikewhatever]

I'd like to share the news of an interesting development regarding Windows refunds in a rather unexpected place, The Russian Federation. You can read the press release on the subject in English on the official web site of The Federal Antimonopoly Service of Russia (FAS), but the essence of it is as follows:

According to the data gathered by FAS, none of the computer vendors operating in Russia («Асеr», «ASUS», «Toshiba», «hp», «Samsung», «Dell») had an established procedure allowing end uses to return an OEM Windows for a refund as outlined in the EULA.
http://www.fas.gov.ru/english/news/n_24641.shtml

Here is a very interesting quote from another publication on the subject:

The «Microsoft» Corporation, brought to the proceedings as an interested party, confirmed that the licence agreements with PC vendors do not set any restrictions or requirements to sell PC with pre-installed operational systems, or any obstacles for returning the pre-installed operational system. To prevent future imposing of the operational system, «Microsoft» presented information on changes to the draft contracts with notebook manufacturers, which would obligate the latter to have procedures for returning operational systems from end users.

http://www.fas.gov.ru/english/news/n_25502.shtml

The hearing of the case had been pushed to September 10, and I hope the outcome will be positive for Russian free software users.

[RabbitWho]

Nope iv just laughed at the people who are dumb enough to actually buy it in the first place.


Apple are the only computers you can get in Ireland without Windows on them. Out of the frying pan...



Getting a Windows refund only works if your computer is new. If you've booted into Windows once and hit the Accept button at the end of the Microsoft EULA, you're disqualified.damnit. I've used it like three times.

Still.. it's good to know it's possible, next time!

[Maheriano]

Nope iv just laughed at the people who are dumb enough to actually buy it in the first place.
And I laugh at people who buy laptops without Windows because they're usually more expensive. Nice going.

[mikewhatever]

And I laugh at people who buy laptops without Windows because they're usually more expensive. Nice going.

Perhaps that is so sometimes, but not always, laughing or not. I recently got a 30$ discount for the Dell mini 10, having bought one without Windows. Don't remember anyone laughing then.

[chessnerd]

I'd like to share the news of an interesting development regarding Windows refunds in a rather unexpected place, The Russian Federation. You can read the press release on the subject in English on the official web site of The Federal Antimonopoly Service of Russia (FAS), but the essence of it is as follows:

According to the data gathered by FAS, none of the computer vendors operating in Russia («Асеr», «ASUS», «Toshiba», «hp», «Samsung», «Dell») had an established procedure allowing end uses to return an OEM Windows for a refund as outlined in the EULA.
http://www.fas.gov.ru/english/news/n_24641.shtml

Here is a very interesting quote from another publication on the subject:


The «Microsoft» Corporation, brought to the proceedings as an interested party, confirmed that the license agreements with PC vendors do not set any restrictions or requirements to sell PC with pre-installed operational systems, or any obstacles for returning the pre-installed operational system. To prevent future imposing of the operational system, «Microsoft» presented information on changes to the draft contracts with notebook manufacturers, which would obligate the latter to have procedures for returning operational systems from end users.

http://www.fas.gov.ru/english/news/n_25502.shtml

The hearing of the case had been pushed to September 10, and I hope the outcome will be positive for Russian free software users.

Good to know that Microsoft wants manufactures to honor the EULA. The problem seems to lie then with the manufactures themselves and not with Microsoft. Maybe they aren't as evil as we once thought... On the other hand, one good deed does not an honest company make.

I hope the case goes against the manufactures. I'm sure they signed an agreement to honor the EULA if they sold Windows, and if they didn't read what was in the EULA it isn't their customers' fault. Maybe next time they'll read what they put their signatures on.

[ade234uk]

When I got this laptop with Vista preinstalled and I was thinking of claiming a refund from Acer, howerver I thought what's the point and just formatted the thing. It is annoying Microsoft have taken money from me, when I never even wanted the product.

It is annoying that machines comes pre-installed with Windows. Fact is these companies are scared of offering PC's without an OS just in case they lose their special discount from Microsoft.

I would not worry because Microsoft's greed over the last 15 years has actually caused them a new set of problems, customer loyalty.

[mikewhatever]

Good to know that Microsoft wants manufactures to honor the EULA. The problem seems to lie then with the manufactures themselves and not with Microsoft. Maybe they aren't as evil as we once thought... On the other hand, one good deed does not an honest company make.


I wouldn't really believe anything MS has to say on the subject, as it is an interested party. More importantly, I think the real problem is not with MS or the computer vendors, but with end users. and yes, Linux users especially. Just looks at some of the previous comments. How many of us ever asked for linux based computers, computers without Windows, or Windows refunds? I dare say not a lot. Linux users love Linux, use and enjoy it, but when the choice is presented they buy computers with Windows. Is there any wonder vendors don't want to have to deal with us?




It is annoying that machines comes pre-installed with Windows. Fact is these companies are scared of offering PC's without an OS just in case they lose their special discount from Microsoft.


That is exactly where state regulators must come in with the decision. If there is a law gently forcing vendors to comply, MS would also be legally obliged.

[racerraul]

I just recently bought an Acer 6530 laptop... $389 plus shipping. Came with Vista.

I searched high and low for laptops with no OS or Linux. But none where near that cheap, on the contrary all where nearly x2 as much.

I figured what is more important to me... avoiding the small MS tax or saving substantially more money out of my pocket? Needless to say, I didn't debate that for long...

If all I was going to save was $30 - $50, then I think Windows was a bargain for that much, and I get a copy of Windows 7 for free to boot. I figured in the end, if I don't want to keep it... a friend or family member might just be OK taking me out to lunch or dinner for my copy of Windows. :guitar:

[misfitpierce]

Unfortunately there usually isn't an option to not buy it. Go to Best Buy sometime and ask if you can buy a computer with Linux on it. If they don't give you the "what the heck is Linux" look you'll likely get the "sorry man, I wish the world was a different place" look from a fellow Linux fan.

That's not entirely true... I went into best buy and asked for the linux netbook and was shown it... So they do sell linux but only on the netbooks atm but they did know what I was talking about, they also showed me that they had Ubuntu discs at bestbuy which I thought was pretty amazing... They were like $10 in a little case thing but none the less... amazed.

With that said though, on normal laptops atm you got to get whatever OS is on it which sadly tends to be windows nowadays... I was not even aware that you could return the pre-installed copy of windows to get money from the EULA but i'm glad I have this information for the future now :)

[speedwell68]

When I got this laptop with Vista preinstalled and I was thinking of claiming a refund from Acer, howerver I thought what's the point and just formatted the thing. It is annoying Microsoft have taken money from me, when I never even wanted the product.

Microsoft haven't taken any money from you for the OS. In theory Acer have, but as I said before when you contact Acer for your refund they will inform you that they provide the pre-installed software without any warranty and therefore free of charge.

I have no proof of this, but I imagine that Microsoft are providing Windows free of charge to a lot of the major OEM vendors as a lost leader to maintain their monopoly. I doubt they make a lot of money from Windows, their bread and butter is from office, server software, corporate support and peripherals.

[Mateo]

People don't get that EULA's are fairly meaningless. They are not legally binding documents.

[Pogeymanz]

People don't get that EULA's are fairly meaningless. They are not legally binding documents.

What do you mean? How could it not be legally binding? I could scribble something on a napkin and if you sign it (and I guess have it notarized) then it is legally binding.

Therefore, if they show you this dialog and say "click this to accept these terms" and you don't, then you didn't accept anything.

[Mateo]

What do you mean? How could it not be legally binding? I could scribble something on a napkin and if you sign it (and I guess have it notarized) then it is legally binding.

Therefore, if they show you this dialog and say "click this to accept these terms" and you don't, then you didn't accept anything.

No it's not, it's just stating that you have general agreement. It's not a contract. Anything can be written into a EULA. It's not legally binding until it has been upheld in a court. A company could grant itself the right to murder it's users in a EULA, but that doesn't mean they can.

In this case Microsoft offers refunds from vendors... that's like me writing a EULA that you can have my neighbor's car.

[Pogeymanz]

No it's not, it's just stating that you have general agreement. It's not a contract. Anything can be written into a EULA. It's not legally binding until it has been upheld in a court. A company could grant itself the right to murder it's users in a EULA, but that doesn't mean they can.

In this case Microsoft offers refunds from vendors... that's like me writing a EULA that you can have my neighbor's car.

But then, doesn't that depend on whether that is included in Microsoft's contract with the vendor?

If you and your neighbor signed a contract that allows you to sell his car, and then you put it in your EULA, the "user" has the right to buy his car.

[Mateo]

Right, sure, if you have access to the Microsoft/Dell contract, then you have a case. But my point was that EULAs often infringe on others right (in this case, the vendor), and when that happens, it is invalid. EULAs are only legally binding when the legal process has said that they are. Microsoft or any other company can't offer you another company's money.

[mikewhatever]

Right, sure, if you have access to the Microsoft/Dell contract, then you have a case. But my point was that EULAs often infringe on others right (in this case, the vendor), and when that happens, it is invalid. EULAs are only legally binding when the legal process has said that they are. Microsoft or any other company can't offer you another company's money.

Computer vendors act as resellers for MS. Why do you think end users can't ask their resellers for refunds? It's quite absurd. Courts in many different countries have already ruled Windows EULA to be legally binding, so that if going to court is necessary, one may sight a previous case.