Microsoft Ad [Archive] - Ubuntu Forums

MikeTheC

August 26th, 2009, 12:31 AM

Say what you will, but Apple would *never* have allowed this kind of ad to go out.

For that matter, no company I've ever worked for (in or out of my DTP industry) would have ever allowed this sort of thing.

It offends me to see what the ad agency has done, and as it is the client's ultimate responsibility to decide what will be used as their public image, this is Microsoft's fault. Period.

But, they don't care about their software products, they have already demonstrated contempt for their customers... why should they care about anything, really? At the end of the day, they're just a huge megacorp which specifically is evil, and therefore the rest of the world would be that much better off without them.

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 04:06 PM

I don't get it. Why do such a thing?

It seems a double dose of racism, like they're saying "Take out the black guy, Poles don't like black guys."

people might be too fast to judge the ad agency for racism , there are many black people in the us, but not as many in poland. so they probably thought that a black man would not be a clever idea as a symbol.

we Must judge them for idiocy though ,leaving the black hand on a white man . Or even more, couldn't they just retake the photo with another actor?

Mr. Picklesworth

August 26th, 2009, 04:16 PM

Engadget did this a bit better themselves, with a link to the live version (http://www.microsoft.com/poland/businessproductivity/default.mspx) of their fix:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/25/microsoft-sucks-at-photoshop/

The creepiest part is I think I actually recognize the stock head that they put in...
Also note the definite Macbook (it's easy to tell by the ports on the side) and the window to the left of our disappearing man.

hyperdude111

August 26th, 2009, 04:23 PM

Whoever they got to do it didn't take much care, the text is not line up with the box.

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/650/msphotochoptextbox.png

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 04:40 PM

people might be too fast to judge the ad agency for racism , there are many black people in the us, but as many in poland. so they probably thought that a black man would not be a clever idea as a symbol.Rather the definition of racism, isn't that?

we Must judge them for idiocy though ,leaving the black hand on a white man . Or even more, couldn't they just retake the photo with another actor?
I've never had a lot of confidence in ad agency's competence.

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 04:48 PM

Rather the definition of racism, isn't that?

No

Here in greece, if someone wanted to advertise something showing that it is friendly etc etc he would most probably include greeks (of course) and albanians since 1 out of 12 in greece is albanian or has some roots from albania.

in france though, it would be more possible to include black people, as there are more of them there than greeks or albanians

it is not racism, it is a way to target the group you want

do not misunderstand me, i am actively against racism, yet there is no such thing here, just a stupid ad

attacking everything as racism makes attacks against real racism weaker, which is something that most of us (i hope) don't want

Methuselah

August 26th, 2009, 05:01 PM

Interesting that the American ad presents the picture of diversity and tolerance whereas the alteration for the Polish add goes a way towards proving it's merely that: a picture.
Note that all minorities were not eliminated only the one deemed most objectionable!

Anyway, I guess I don't find it extremely offensive...just a little window into how people think and how they think others think.

ZarathustraDK

August 26th, 2009, 05:06 PM

I just couldn't help myself... GIMP was right there begging for me to use it...

Must...rub...salt...in...the...wound...

http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=126320&d=1251302692
:lolflag:

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 05:07 PM

Ozor Mox

August 26th, 2009, 05:10 PM

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 05:25 PM

No

Here in greece, if someone wanted to advertise something showing that it is friendly etc etc he would most probably include greeks (of course) and albanians since 1 out of 12 in greece is albanian or has some roots from albania.

in france though, it would be more possible to include black people, as there are more of them there than greeks or albanians

it is not racism, it is a way to target the group you want

do not misunderstand me, i am actively against racism, yet there is no such thing here, just a stupid ad

attacking everything as racism makes attacks against real racism weaker, which is something that most of us (i hope) don't want
Yep, that's racism.

You do realize that race is a purely subjective thing, right? And that it has no objective basis to exist? And that saying you need Greek to sell to Greeks you're promoting the idea that there is such a divide as race, and that you aught only follow the lead of "one's own kind".

Racism is subtle stuff. Don't let the hand-wringing brigade let you think there's such a thing "dilution" of racism.

sydbat

August 26th, 2009, 05:30 PM

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 05:32 PM

Yep, that's racism.

You do realize that race is a purely subjective thing, right? And that it has no objective basis to exist? And that saying you need Greek to sell to Greeks you're promoting the idea that there is such a divide as race, and that you aught only follow the lead of "one's own kind".

Racism is subtle stuff. Don't let the hand-wringing brigade let you think there's such a thing "dilution" of racism.

i still disagree

people want to think that what they buy is made for them
using Indians to advertise something in Greece would be just stupid

racism would be to ban Indians from the ads IF there was a reason for them to be there
racism would be to ban Indians from the ads IF the people in Greece had problem with them being there
but choosing not to include Indians while advertising a Greek product is just a way to get more people to buy it.

I take it that you live somewhere where there are many different races - that would definitely make what you say right
do not forget though that most of the countries worldwide do not have such a multinational population , like the one in the US or Canada etc.

you can keep on saying that it is racism and that they had a problem with the man being black
if that's the case, then they have some serious issues
but i still think that it's not that

Ian dewhurst

August 26th, 2009, 05:44 PM

http://computerboom.blogspot.com/2009/08/microsoft-we-want-your-computer-to-talk.html

As the title says I quite like the idea of this product. Countless times I've had to leave the computer running while I sleep for a torrent or a large update and I leave my work comp running all the time just for one vital necessary app.

Oh and the plus thing it uses linux!:P

SunnyRabbiera

August 26th, 2009, 05:47 PM

So will Microsoft sue itself now? ;)

sydbat

August 26th, 2009, 05:49 PM

So will Microsoft sue itself now? ;)While it continues to call home while the computer is "sleeping"...

nikhilbhardwaj

August 26th, 2009, 05:52 PM

the ad's genuine
i saw a report on bbc
microsoft is said to be appologizing for this

bloody racists

hetx

August 26th, 2009, 05:54 PM

So will Microsoft sue itself now? ;)

lol'd

Overall you seem to see a more and more civilized attitude from M$. Additions to the kernel, deals with open source companies etc. Guess we finally woke the sleeping monster. Personally it freaks me out when they put out products that are not complete crap, it's just not right...

Ian dewhurst

August 26th, 2009, 05:56 PM

Oh I just realised that sounds like I'm product plugging - :lolflag:

No I just like the idea - is it that bad?

Ozor Mox

August 26th, 2009, 06:06 PM

Oh I just realised that sounds like I'm product plugging - :lolflag:

No I just like the idea - is it that bad?

Seems like an interesting idea. I think I'd sooner just switch off the monitor and speakers and leave my computer running if it was downloading something that big though.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to put some kind of power saving mode into the operating system? I don't know how practical that would be.

ZarathustraDK

August 26th, 2009, 06:08 PM

the ad's genuine
i saw a report on bbc
microsoft is said to be appologizing for this

bloody racists

Meh, as much as I'd like to see MS commit a genuine racist blunder I don't think this is it.

This is just corporate greed at work, trying to maximize profits by showing the major demographic of the country pictures of people they can associate themselves with. IMHO a practice almost as vile.

One has to wonder if they have something like a Mr. Potatohead-collection of photoshopped heads/bodies/arms/legs from different ethnicities to pick from when they make ads so they can just cut and paste.

RabbitWho

August 26th, 2009, 06:09 PM

Psychologically people genuinely do empathise more with people in the race they were raised around. But that's more of a reason to include everyone in advertising because it will change the way our minds work and make us colour blind.

And even then, you can kind of understand having different ads with different races in different countries, i mean koreans might feel microsoft wasn't really in touch with them if all of the people in their ads were white americans. But then you take new pictures.. you dub over peoples voices in ads so they have different accents (Irish channels show a lot of English and American ads this way) You don't photoshop out someones head.. that's disgusting.

I can understand the marketing reasons why it was done, but it's just idiotic, and so wrong, that's a person!

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 06:13 PM

i still disagree

people want to think that what they buy is made for them
using Indians to advertise something in Greece would be just stupid

racism would be to ban Indians from the ads IF there was a reason for them to be there
racism would be to ban Indians from the ads IF the people in Greece had problem with them being there
but choosing not to include Indians while advertising a Greek product is just a way to get more people to buy it.

I take it that you live somewhere where there are many different races - that would definitely make what you say right
do not forget though that most of the countries worldwide do not have such a multinational population , like the one in the US or Canada etc.

you can keep on saying that it is racism and that they had a problem with the man being black
if that's the case, then they have some serious issues
but i still think that it's not that
You aren't seeing it. There is no such thing as race. It's a social construct that has no basis in reality, only in social-political dynamics.

"choosing not to include Indians while advertising a Greek product is just a way to get more people to buy it." This is inherently racist, as you are saying that "one race will chooses its own race", and I am saying that this notion of race is utter bunk (objectively), and any human should do just fine in an advert.

Tristam Green

August 26th, 2009, 06:16 PM

You aren't seeing it. There is no such thing as race. It's a social construct that has no basis in reality, only in social-political dynamics.

"choosing not to include Indians while advertising a Greek product is just a way to get more people to buy it." This is inherently racist, as you are saying that "one race will chooses its own race", and I am saying that this notion of race is utter bunk (objectively), and any human should do just fine in an advert.

You realize that not every culture is altogether tolerant of people who look different, correct?

Is it wrong? Sure.

Is it going to change globally? I *highly* doubt it, at least in the near future.

Chriskin is spot-on in his assessment of the situation. They're looking to maximize their returns, not to be politically correct.

BuffaloX

August 26th, 2009, 06:19 PM

I don't get it. Why do such a thing?

It seems a double dose of racism, like they're saying "Take out the black guy, Poles don't like black guys."

It's not racist, the add says "Empower your people".
It just tries to show a typical work situation in Poland, that Polish people can identify with.

I want the monitor.
Completely wireless. :P
The keyboard is a bit lame though.

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 06:19 PM

You aren't seeing it. There is no such thing as race. It's a social construct that has no basis in reality, only in social-political dynamics.

"choosing not to include Indians while advertising a Greek product is just a way to get more people to buy it." This is inherently racist, as you are saying that "one race will chooses its own race", and I am saying that this notion of race is utter bunk (objectively), and any human should do just fine in an advert.

you are mixing the "there is no reason to hate someone because of his race" with "there is no race". the last one is definitely mistaken , there are caucasians, africans, asians etc - races exist.

people are not all the same, they are Equal. having the exact same rights with someone doesn't mean that you are from the same race as him (!)

as for the second part, read the post above yours , it will make you see why the white man was chosen (and why it was a stupid choice as well)

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 06:22 PM

You realize that not every culture is altogether tolerant of people who look different, correct?

Is it wrong? Sure.

Is it going to change globally? I *highly* doubt it, at least in the near future.

Chriskin is spot-on in his assessment of the situation. They're looking to maximize their returns, not to be politically correct.
Sure, I get that.

I'm just sayin', we aught call a spade a spade. Microsoft and its marketer have their reasons for doing it, but that does not mean the reasons are not racist, and the act is itself perpetuating racism.

azangru

August 26th, 2009, 06:23 PM

It seems a double dose of racism, like they're saying "Take out the black guy, Poles don't like black guys."

It's not that Poles don't like black people, but there are obviously much (much!) fewer blacks in Poland, and the presence of a black guy on the photo will give the ad a taste of something foreign, not really belonging to Poland. Not a good advertising strategy.

Though that [auto-censored] face of this particular white guy makes the ad even worse.

RabbitWho

August 26th, 2009, 06:25 PM

It's not that Poles don't like black people, but there are obviously much (much!) fewer blacks in Poland, and the presence of a black guy on the photo will give the ad a taste of something foreign, not really belonging to Poland. Not a good advertising strategy.

Though that [auto-censored] face of this particular white guy makes the ad even worse.

As i said already, standard practice is to do a different photoshoot.

Not to decapitate someone.

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 06:28 PM

you are mixing the "there is no reason to hate someone because of his race" with "there is no race". the last one is definitely mistaken , there are caucasians, africans, asians etc - races exist.No. Races do not exist. Fundamentally there is no significant difference between the "races". It's a total lie to claim biological separation between any set of humans, there is only very recent, minor adaptations that change outward appearance.

http://www.ted.com/talks/nina_jablonski_breaks_the_illusion_of_skin_color.h tml
http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm

people are not all the same, they are Equal. having the exact same rights with someone doesn't mean that you are from the same race as him (!)

as for the second part, read the post above yours , it will make you see why the white man was chosen (and why it was a stupid choice as well)
I know the reasons, hon. I do. The reasons are inherently racist. We must face this fact, and disagree with allowing it.

It's not going to change things any time soon, but just shrugging our shoulders and pretending it's acceptable because most people do it just allows it to continue.

hessiess

August 26th, 2009, 06:34 PM

Seems like an interesting idea. I think I'd sooner just switch off the monitor and speakers and leave my computer running if it was downloading something that big though.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to put some kind of power saving mode into the operating system? I don't know how practical that would be.

The device uses a XScale(ARM) CPU, so applications would need to be programmed spasifically to support it.

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 06:36 PM

i think that you have understood the meaning of "race" in a wrong way.

The term race or racial group usually refers to the categorization of humans into populations or groups on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics.[1] The most widely used human racial categories are based on salient visual traits (especially skin color, cranial or facial features and hair texture), and self-identification.[1][2]

taken from wikipedia

i really believe that there is no real reason to prove that races do exist. Europeans happen to be white, most Africans happen to not be white? the reason , we are from a different race

can't see why you think that there are no races (!)
there are people with different colors, facial features (the eyes of the Asians for example) etc

considering that it is proved that there are races (!) , i continue to the reason

as for the reason of the ad, you should look at greed, not hate.
campaign with white man would bring more money, so they put a white man. :)

the only unethical action taken here is exactly what RabbitWho said

You don't photoshop out someones head.. that's disgusting.

I can understand the marketing reasons why it was done, but it's just idiotic, and so wrong, that's a person!

swoll1980

August 26th, 2009, 06:39 PM

Is the black/white guy using a Mac Book?

tripolitan

August 26th, 2009, 06:39 PM

Freaks me out too! But was it Ghandi who said "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win"?

Historically, MS talking to Open-source companies has never been a good thing for these companies. MS is a company that actively sought the demise of Corel Linux (the first corporate-backed distro with Corel professional graphics applications) and ousting its anti-MS founder, preached the evilness of opensource software, calling it "potentially viral", "a toy" and calling the GPL "non-american" "communist" etc. I don't think that "Civilized" describes a company that did all that and talks to open source companies while funding SCO in its legal battles against large companies that utilize/sell Linux.

What's the word I'm looking for....?

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 06:40 PM

Is the black/white guy using a Mac Book?

no. most macbooks have an apple on the back
i can't see any apple here

Tristam Green

August 26th, 2009, 06:42 PM

Sure, I get that.

I'm just sayin', we aught call a spade a spade. Microsoft and its marketer have their reasons for doing it, but that does not mean the reasons are not racist, and the act is itself perpetuating racism.

It just didn't make sense to me, how you were going about it. It's like those old-school Russian propaganda posters (bad analogy, but you get the drift) - how effective would they have been if, instead of "typical Russian people" they included an African-descent person, an East Asian person, and a Norseman? Simply put, they wouldn't have been.

I find your choice of phrasing interesting due to most people actively avoiding it due to racial confusion (the phrase itself predates the ethnic slur), lol.

tripolitan

August 26th, 2009, 06:43 PM

I use a laptop, this is a non-issue for me as the wattage used by a plugged-in laptop is a lot less than that of a PC power supply+the MS device.

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 06:43 PM

i think that you have understood the meaning of "race" in a wrong way.

taken from wikipedia Oh, yeah. Wikipedia. That's a trump card.

I fully understand what "race" is, and I know it has no basis in reality. Did you spend any time exploring the links I posted?

i really believe that there is no real reason to prove that races do exist. Europeans happen to be white, most Africans happen to not be white? the reason , we are from a different raceNo, we are of different amounts of melanin.

can't see why you think that there are no races (!)
there are people with different colors, facial features (the eyes of the Asians for example) etcMelanin. Cheek bone structure. Epicanthic folds. These exist for all humans, and you'll find incedible variation of each in any population. Your division of "race" is a socialized, learned behavior.

considering that it is proved that there are races (!) , i continue to the reasonYou've proved nothing other than you've acepted a false idea of race.

as for the reason of the ad, you should look at greed, not hate.
campaign with white man would bring more money, so they put a white man. :)

the only unethical action taken here is exactly what RabbitWho said
You're saying that the racists are right. That's pretty sad. </appealtoemotion>

Tristam Green

August 26th, 2009, 06:43 PM

no. most macbooks have an apple on the back
i can't see any apple here

Well, most black guys have black hands too, so that must not really be a black man then :KS

azangru

August 26th, 2009, 06:43 PM

There is no such thing as race.

Fundamentally there is no significant difference between the "races".

Fundamentally, there is absolutely no significant difference between these two people:

http://www.kingsbridge.gov.uk/Uploads/Site263/Images/martin.jpg
http://armoredsquirrel.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/PunkMohawk.jpg

but while one of them can easily be used in adds representing MS, the other is a bit off :P

Firestem4

August 26th, 2009, 06:44 PM

Wouldn't it be a better idea to put some kind of power saving mode into the operating system? I don't know how practical that would be.

There are existing programs for this but they're not as efficient. The amount of energy being useed by a Computer running (even with the CPU-voltage throttled and things like Speakers/Monitors) turned off is quite a lot more than when compared to a small USB device such as the one in the article.

My Gigabyte motherboard has a (windows) programs that I use all the time to throttle my CPU voltage and dynamically adjust voltage levels. So at night when I go to sleep I turn this on and instead of the computer idling at 35~45v, it idles at 10~12v's. I turn on some music, and have the computer go into suspend in 1 hour.

Linux PowerDevil and other programs like this can do the exact same thing however it is built-in rather than an add-on like most windows features.

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 06:46 PM

It just didn't make sense to me, how you were going about it. It's like those old-school Russian propaganda posters (bad analogy, but you get the drift) - how effective would they have been if, instead of "typical Russian people" they included an African-descent person, an East Asian person, and a Norseman? Simply put, they wouldn't have been.The fact that it is effective to present a specific "racial" face to sell is the part I see perpetuating racism.

I find your choice of phrasing interesting due to most people actively avoiding it due to racial confusion (the phrase itself predates the ethnic slur), lol.
I have a well-honed sense of irony ;)

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 06:48 PM

Fundamentally, there is absolutely no significant difference between these two people:

but while one of them can easily be used in adds representing MS, the other is a bit off :P
Sorry, false analogy fallacy. Clothing and action are matters of choice - and in this case are likely very representative of attitude. In short, there is a fundamental difference between the people depicted in those photos.

beefncheese

August 26th, 2009, 06:48 PM

Tristam Green

August 26th, 2009, 06:49 PM

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 06:57 PM

Oh, yeah. Wikipedia. That's a trump card.

I fully understand what "race" is, and I know it has no basis in reality. Did you spend any time exploring the links I posted?

No, we are of different amounts of melanin.

Melanin. Cheek bone structure. Epicanthic folds. These exist for all humans, and you'll find incedible variation of each in any population. Your division of "race" is a socialized, learned behavior.

You've proved nothing other than you've acepted a false idea of race.

You're saying that the racists are right. That's pretty sad. </appealtoemotion>

i am afraid that having different amount of melanin, different cheek bone structure etc etc means that you are from another race - you are most probably thinking about whether being from another race means anything (and it doesn't, you are right on that one) but i can't see why you won'y accept what the meaning means

of course we once were one race, but though the passing of time, the race was divided into 5 races, each following a different path of evolution because of the challenges set by different locations - can't see why you can't accept this , it's just history , it doesn't make anyone better or worse.

and i never said it was a right thing to do, you misunderstood that one as well.
all is said was that it had nothing to do with racism

azangru

August 26th, 2009, 07:03 PM

Clothing and action are matters of choice - and in this case are likely very representative of attitude. In short, there is a fundamental difference between the people depicted in those photos.

Oh, but it's such a prejudice - to judge people by their clothes. Tut-tut! Who knows - may be the guy on the upper picture is a serial murderer, while the other guy is a diligent student of classical Latin and Greek?

Ads exploit our stereotypes. Skin color, as well as clotes, is among those stereotypes, whether we like it or not. And while the US is a melting pot of all sorts of nations, very hot on the issues of racism and sexism (hence all those clichee-ed multinational tandems on pictures), Poland is not. Therefore, these two cultures will have different stereotypes. Therefore, the advertising strategy (including images) may be different. It's not racism - it's... cultural awareness :)

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 07:07 PM

i am afraid that having different amount of melanin, different cheek bone structure etc etc means that you are from another race - you are most probably thinking about whether being from another race means anything (and it doesn't, you are right on that one) but i can't see why you won'y accept what the meaning means

of course we once were one race, but though the passing of time, the race was divided into 5 races, each following a different path of evolution because of the challenges set by different locations - can't see why you can't accept this , it's just history , it doesn't make anyone better or worse.

and i never said it was a right thing to do, you misunderstood that one as well.
all is said was that it had nothing to do with racism
I won't accept your sanitized definition because it's utterly senseless. There are no objective divisions, there are no genetic markers for race, there is no biological separation between the races. Watch the video I posted. It tells you that skin color is so incredibly variant that it refuses to be classed, and is nothing more than a very mild adaptation to changes in sunlight exposure.

And we were never "one race" becuase there's no such thing as race. Where did that come from? The biology of the great apes (including us) suggests that our common ancestors had these variances as well, small adaptations to different climates without real separation between "dark" hominids and "light" hominids.

running_rabbit07

August 26th, 2009, 07:09 PM

Whenever I really want to be taken seriously, I make sure to use proper punctuation and the shift key in the proper places.

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 07:10 PM

Oh, but it's such a prejudice - to judge people by their clothes. Tut-tut! Who knows - may be the guy on the upper picture is a serial murderer, while the other guy is a diligent student of classical Latin and Greek?Another false analogy fallacy.

The choices they make are a reflection of who they are. Their skin color, on the other hand, is not.

Ads exploit our stereotypes. Skin color, as well as clotes, is among those stereotypes, whether we like it or not. And while the US is a melting pot of all sorts of nations, very hot on the issues of racism and sexism (hence all those clichee-ed multinational tandems on pictures), Poland is not. Therefore, these two cultures will have different stereotypes. Therefore, the advertising strategy (including images) may be different. It's not racism - it's... cultural awareness :)
If the culture demands a particular skin color to feel a connection, how is that not racist?

Yes, the marketing firm and Microsoft are bending to that ugly little reality, but that does not stop it from being a matter of racism.

ZarathustraDK

August 26th, 2009, 07:15 PM

After much consideration, Microsoft has decided to release a third version of the advertisement. This should put all concerns to rest.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3003/500xmicrosoftphotoshop3.png

Haha Excellent :P

Butbutbut...

The ad still neglects an important greek minority:
http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=126331&stc=1&d=1251310435

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 07:17 PM

Whenever I really want to be taken seriously, I make sure to use proper punctuation and the shift key in the proper places.

If that was about my posts, i apologize but i have the tendency to skip the shift key most of the time. It's not a matter of not talking seriously, it's a matter of what i am used to. Sorry if it offended you in some way.

@Jill

Not accepting the existence of races isn't anti-racist, it's pointless.
There must be a reason why the same disease is often treated with different drugs depending on your skin color, the differences are not just of the appearance.

It is a clever move for all of us to fight racism where it is , not use our powers to fight it where it isn't.

running_rabbit07

August 26th, 2009, 07:18 PM

I won't accept your sanitized definition because it's utterly senseless. There are no objective divisions, there are no genetic markers for race, there is no biological separation between the races. Watch the video I posted. It tells you that skin color is so incredibly variant that it refuses to be classed, and is nothing more than a very mild adaptation to changes in sunlight exposure.

And we were never "one race" because there's no such thing as race. Where did that come from? The biology of the great apes (including us) suggests that our common ancestors had these variances as well, small adaptations to different climates without real separation between "dark" hominids and "light" hominids.

I have never seen it put that way. I think you are a genius sometimes.

In the beginning of Spring, I am a white guy.
By the end of Spring people are speaking to me in Spanish.
By the end of summer some people have asked me what color I am.
All because I tan very easily and I don't use sunblock.

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 07:22 PM

@Jill

Not accepting the existence of races isn't anti-racist, it's pointless.
There must be a reason why the same disease is often treated with different drugs depending on your skin color, the differences are not just of the appearance.

It is a clever move for all of us to fight racism where it is , not use our powers to fight it where it isn't.
Same disease treated with different drugs... what? Cite that, or retract it. I know that's bunk.

Otherwise, seeing that I can back my arguments with evidence and all you do is keep repeating the same unsupported assertion, I think I can safely say "forget it, you're not even listening."

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 07:24 PM

I have never seen it put that way. I think you are a genius sometimes.

In the beginning of Spring, I am a white guy.
By the end of Spring people are speaking to me in Spanish.
By the end of summer some people have asked me what color I am.
All because I tan very easily and I don't use sunblock.
Yes! That's a prime example.

Thank you!

running_rabbit07

August 26th, 2009, 07:26 PM

It is a clever move for all of us to fight racism where it is , not use our powers to fight it where it isn't.

Then why don't you want a black guy or gal in your ads?

We don't have racism in the US. We just have a bunch of uneducated people that think they are better than others. If we were all the same skin color and there was only one sex and one religion, idiots would still find a reason to hate someone.

If I push my thoughts on this any further though, I am sure the thread would get closed.

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 07:26 PM

Same disease treated with different drugs... what? Cite that, or retract it. I know that's bunk.

Otherwise, seeing that I can back my arguments with evidence and all you do is keep repeating the same unsupported assertion, I think I can safely say "forget it, you're not even listening."

i would cite wikipedia's article about heart disorder related medicine made only for black people but you wouldn't accept it now, would you? :)

macogw

August 26th, 2009, 07:28 PM

you are mixing the "there is no reason to hate someone because of his race" with "there is no race". the last one is definitely mistaken , there are caucasians, africans, asians etc - races exist.
Actually, depending on where your from, races are defined pretty differently. I've heard of South Americans coming the US and being told "that black boy there said..." and turning around and asking "what black boy?" "Right behind you?" "Where?" "In the blue shirt" "Him? He's not black!"

It is a telling sign that a Bangladeshi man I know is usually mistaken for Mexican.

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 07:29 PM

Then why don't you want a black guy or gal in your ads?

what? i never said something like that (!!)

i said that it would be more clever to choose and Albanian as they are more than the black people in Greece.

considering that you don't know about Greece, you might be taken by surprise by the fact that people have more problems against other Balkans than against black people.

i was explaining why they chose to make the switch, not saying that i accept it as a good choice (!)

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 07:30 PM

i would cite wikipedia's article about heart disorder related medicine made only for black people but you wouldn't accept it now, would you? :)
It's not made "only for black people", it's made for folks with a certain genome sequence that is often - but not always - associated with higher melanin levels in skin. This association is correlative and not causative.

Get past your socialized views of race, kiddo. They have no bearing on reality.

azangru

August 26th, 2009, 07:32 PM

If the culture demands a particular skin color to feel a connection, how is that not racist?

Simple! It's just that some cultures are respresented by people of a certain skin color. And people of a different skin color look foreign. And foreign doesn't always connect well.

You can use an image of a pregnant woman to connect to pregnant women (an image of a man may not work as well). Likewise, children will better identify with an image of another child. What's all that surprise that no Pole would identify with a black guy on the picture?

bostonaholic

August 26th, 2009, 07:33 PM

Simple question, simple answer.

For your reference,
http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/25/microsoft-sucks-at-photoshop/

RiceMonster

August 26th, 2009, 07:34 PM

There's a thread about this on the front page already (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1249715)

bostonaholic

August 26th, 2009, 07:34 PM

The only way to settle this is with a Poll (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1250431). :-D

running_rabbit07

August 26th, 2009, 07:35 PM

i would cite wikipedia's article about heart disorder related medicine made only for black people but you wouldn't accept it now, would you? :)

You can't site wikipedia. Their site is not written by scholars. Anyone can write a wiki saying whatever they want until it is contested. Not to mention that those supposed disorders are from how the majority of the people live. Anyone that lives in a stressful environment will be just as likely to get heart disease, too.

bostonaholic

August 26th, 2009, 07:36 PM

There's a thread about this on the front page already (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1249715)

Yes, and I have linked in that thread to the poll I just created.

PurposeOfReason

August 26th, 2009, 07:37 PM

More marketing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_in_Poland

It's not Polands fault they have a small black population.

mamamia88

August 26th, 2009, 07:42 PM

i don't get it it's just a bunch of people sitting at a desk

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 07:42 PM

Simple! It's just that some cultures are respresented by people of a certain skin color. And people of a different skin color look foreign. And foreign doesn't always connect well.And the underlying psychology that makes that true is... you guessed it! Racist.

You can use an image of a pregnant woman to connect to pregnant women (an image of a man may not work as well). Likewise, children will better identify with an image of another child. What's all that surprise that no Pole would identify with a black guy on the picture?
Someone's surprised?

I know what they're up to, no need to re-explain it to me. But the underlying causes for the change are race-induced. Calling it racist is an accurate description.

Did you know that Poles in the northern part of the country tend to be lighter skinned than the Poles in the southern part? Are there two races there? Or, wait, three! The Poles along the middle stripe are slightly lighter then those to the south and slightly darker than the Poles to the north!

Race is bunk. We should point it out.

aesis05401

August 26th, 2009, 07:42 PM

More marketing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_in_Poland

It's not Polands fault they have a small black population.

OK, How about the bad clone job on the window sill behind white-guy's head, the apparently revolutionary wireless monitor!!!, the keyboard that is not only not wireless, but not plugged into anything, the mac book (which got left in the photo instead of the black guy!!!), the fact that the lady is overjoyed about pressing the escape key...

I agree, forget the racist aspect and fire whoever signed off on the photo on technical grounds. It is worse than amateur work.

BuffaloX

August 26th, 2009, 07:52 PM

I won't accept your sanitized definition because it's utterly senseless. There are no objective divisions, there are no genetic markers for race, there is no biological separation between the races. Watch the video I posted. It tells you that skin color is so incredibly variant that it refuses to be classed, and is nothing more than a very mild adaptation to changes in sunlight exposure.

And we were never "one race" becuase there's no such thing as race. Where did that come from? The biology of the great apes (including us) suggests that our common ancestors had these variances as well, small adaptations to different climates without real separation between "dark" hominids and "light" hominids.

OK I'm trying to understand this argument, which I at first thought was just an attempt at being politically correct.

This is what I've broken it down to for now:
There are genetic variations among humans.
Some genetic variations occur more in some geographic areas than others.
Those genetic variations are minor, compared to the total genetic variety of humans.

Conclusion:
Categorizing people based on a minor subset of genetic variety is irrational.

Actually I hope you are right.

ZarathustraDK

August 26th, 2009, 07:52 PM

The problem is not the existence of races and whatnot, it's the qualitative difference in ethical evaluation people of different color are subjected to even when congruent in any and all of their capabilities but their appearance.

You can look at a pug and a doberman and assess that their traits are different and that they excel in "Moe" and "Guardian" respectively; even go so far to conclude that those traits are inherent to their race.

However, both pugs and dobermen are a species of dogs, they are restricted by dog-laws and are qualitatively viewed (big or small, ugly or cute, fluffy or shorthaired) as being the same thing.

Same thing goes for white/black/asian/jewish/eskimo/whatever. I don't wanna compete against blacks in the ability to withstand blazing heat or sunburns because I'll loose because of my race. Same thing with eskimoes and cold-resistance (I'd freeze to death and they'd call me a *****), etc. Of course this is not a law per se but a general tendency, there are always exceptions. Yeah yeah correllation does not equate causation, but that would pretty much rule out the whole idea race in biological terms to begin with.

azangru

August 26th, 2009, 07:54 PM

But the underlying causes for the change are race-induced.

Wait, you said there's no such thing as race! Hmm...

Calling it racist is an accurate description.

Fine, as long as you eliminate all the negative connotations of the word "racist". As long as it is not a derogatory label, almost a swear word. So (due to historical, geographical and cultural reasons) the Poles are more race-conscious than the Americans, and the ad company tried (although poorly) to factor this in to cater specifically to the Poles. Big deal!

sydbat

August 26th, 2009, 07:54 PM

And the underlying psychology that makes that true is... you guessed it! Racist.

Someone's surprised?

I know what they're up to, no need to re-explain it to me. But the underlying causes for the change are race-induced. Calling it racist is an accurate description.

Did you know that Poles in the northern part of the country tend to be lighter skinned than the Poles in the southern part? Are there two races there? Or, wait, three! The Poles along the middle stripe are slightly lighter then those to the south and slightly darker than the Poles to the north!

Race is bunk. We should point it out.Unfortunately Jill, eugenics has had a major detrimental impact on all societies. In some extreme cases it allowed for "ethnic cleansing" while the populace simply closed their eyes.

You are absolutely correct that there is no such thing as "race". This has been scientifically known for decades, but the stereotypes continue to rear their ugly heads.

Oh, and to those still arguing for race, any "scientific" evidence you can provide was proven wrong again and again by legitimate scientists...not those who were working toward some 'master race' political/hate agenda.

running_rabbit07

August 26th, 2009, 07:58 PM

The problem is not the existence of races and whatnot, it's the qualitative difference in ethical evaluation people of different color are subjected to even when congruent in any and all of their capabilities but their appearance.

My Scottish ancestors were slaves to England, yet we were the same color and I doubt that English companies feel the need to add a Scottish person to their ads to make them politically correct.

sc0g

August 26th, 2009, 07:59 PM

It is worse than amateur work.

Duh, because they're still using MS Paint from Winders 95... ;)

running_rabbit07

August 26th, 2009, 08:01 PM

Duh, because they're still using MS Paint from Winders 95... ;)

Paint was the best and easiest thing MS ever made.

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 08:02 PM

Wait, you said there's no such thing as race! Hmm...
I said there's no quantitative/objective thing as race.
Subjectively, people insist there is such a thing, and as a social-political dynamic it exists. It's wrong-headed, but there it is.

Fine, as long as you eliminate all the negative connotations of the word "racist". As long as it is not a derogatory label, almost a swear word. So (due to historical, geographical and cultural reasons) the Poles are more race-conscious than the Americans, and the ad company tried (although poorly) to factor this in to cater specifically to the Poles. Big deal!
Myopic reasoning.

LowSky

August 26th, 2009, 08:07 PM

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 08:08 PM

The problem is not the existence of races and whatnot, it's the qualitative difference in ethical evaluation people of different color are subjected to even when congruent in any and all of their capabilities but their appearance.True that.

Same thing goes for white/black/asian/jewish/eskimo/whatever. I don't wanna compete against blacks in the ability to withstand blazing heat or sunburns because I'll loose because of my race. Same thing with eskimoes and cold-resistance (I'd freeze to death and they'd call me a *****), etc. Of course this is not a law per se but a general tendency, there are always exceptions. Yeah yeah correllation does not equate causation, but that would pretty much rule out the whole idea race in biological terms to begin with.
Actually, melanin has no effect on "sunburn resistance". It just helps regulate sunlight driven vitamin D production in skin cells.
And tolerance for heat or cold isn't genetic, it's just what folks are used to.

Race is bunk.

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 08:19 PM

Unfortunately Jill, eugenics has had a major detrimental impact on all societies. In some extreme cases it allowed for "ethnic cleansing" while the populace simply closed their eyes.

You are absolutely correct that there is no such thing as "race". This has been scientifically known for decades, but the stereotypes continue to rear their ugly heads.

Oh, and to those still arguing for race, any "scientific" evidence you can provide was proven wrong again and again by legitimate scientists...not those who were working toward some 'master race' political/hate agenda.
Yeah, that's why I get kinda worked up about this stuff. Folks like to think the whole race thing went away a few decades ago, and that calling things like this ad "racist" is blowing things out of proportion.

It's an intellectual myopia - if racism had died well and proper, no one would have thought to change the man's head, even in deference to the idea that a black person isn't a common sight in Poland.

In the USA, the roots of the current racial paradigm are in citizenship. People tend to be unaware that for a long while it was not possible to be an American citizen unless you were "white". Though it not institutionalized like that anymore anywhere I'm aware of (except Native American nations/tribes) it's still a paradigm of race where a "black" person can't be a Pole, because Poles aren't black.

azangru

August 26th, 2009, 08:28 PM

Myopic reasoning.

Very argumentative! :P But let me myopically reason further. Do you, even for a second, believe that representation of three major races: black, white, and, well, yellow, on the original image was pure coincidence? If not, then the reasons for making such a racial cocktail in one image were also race-induced. Ergo, the original Microsoft ad (as well as an enormous number of other American ads) is, according to your reasoning:

But the underlying causes for the change are race-induced. Calling it racist is an accurate description.

also racist. And where do we go from here?

Dragonbite

August 26th, 2009, 08:29 PM

I think it's just cluelessness on the advertising agency, trying to cater to a (perceptually) majority white population of Poland and did a lousy job. (I think it was an advertisement to be pushed in Poland)

Had the advertisement not been Photoshoped and showed a White man instead of a black man, would anybody had taken notice? Probably not. Would there be a cry up because there are no white males in the original picture?

The agency is going to focus the advertisement to the perceived target market and they just goofed up big-time.

EDIT: Oh, and the photoshopper should be fired anyway.. the light cast on the white guys head comes from the left (and is blaringly shiny) while the light in the room and on the other people's face is coming from the window on the right and is more diffused.

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 08:34 PM

Very argumentative! :P But let me myopically reason further. Do you, even for a second, believe that representation of three major races: black, white, and, well, yellow, on the original image was pure coincidence? If not, then the reasons for making such a racial cocktail in one image were also race-indused. Ergo, the original Microsoft ad (as well as an enormous number of other American ads) is, according to your reasoning:

also racist. And where do we go from here?
Yes, the attempt to have the "major races" represented is indeed itself racist. It's a bending to the "PC brigade", who has done more to perpetuate the idea of race than even Jim Crow laws.

Where do we go? We stop making believe there is such a thing as race and start juding people on their individual merits. And damn the PC brigade, just hire the first three models that fit the business attire costumes the photographer brought along.

azangru

August 26th, 2009, 08:40 PM

Where do we go? We stop making believe there is such a thing as race and start juding people on their individual merits.

We are judging people on their individual merits (though since we are humans we'll never ignore the appearance altogether :)) But what do you propose for the ad designers?

JillSwift

August 26th, 2009, 08:46 PM

We are judging people on their individual merits (though since we are humans we'll never ignore the appearance altogether :)) But what do you propose for the ad designers?
"We" who? Because people buy into the idea of race, people buy into the idea of racial facets. The only thing that's significantly changed is that few will outright say things like "Mexicans are lazy". But plenty of folks will cross the street to avoid a couple of black guys.

Odd that you left out the answer I already gave for that very question when you quoted me. (Are you starting to cherry-pick my arguments?) The ad agencies aught to stop buying into the crap, too. Perpetuation of the race myth is perpetuation, no matter your reason for doing so.

bodyharvester

August 26th, 2009, 09:00 PM

"We" who? Because people buy into the idea of race, people buy into the idea of racial facets. The only thing that's significantly changed is that few will outright say things like "Mexicans are lazy". But plenty of folks will cross the street to avoid a couple of black guys.

Odd that you left out the answer I already gave for that very question when you quoted me. (Are you starting to cherry-pick my arguments?) The ad agencies aught to stop buying into the crap, too. Perpetuation of the race myth is perpetuation, no matter your reason for doing so.

Order in the court! Order in the court! *bangs gavel* Calm down now, the makers of the Polish ad were racially motivated, thats what i think, but you cant go on arguing or the thread will be closed. Have a break, have a ki...oh no, thats product placement ;)

Dragonbite

August 26th, 2009, 09:02 PM

:popcorn:

azangru

August 26th, 2009, 09:03 PM

The ad agencies aught to stop buying into the crap, too.

Oh, but that's too non-specific! The only way away from the current race cocktails in the ads (which are racist) is to use only people of the "colored" races as symbols (which, indeed, is done sometimes, and is also racist); because if the agencies perchance use predominantly images of white people, they will be labeled by racists as racist. That's quite a vicious circle we are getting into :P

I say, race (as loosely defined by skin color and facial features), while almost meaningless objectively, means a lot subjectively. I understand that you as a rationalist are trying to ignore subjectivity, but isn't this also a little... myopic? ;)

LowSky

August 26th, 2009, 09:05 PM

So Jill what your saying is that instead of openly saying we hate a group based on appearances, we now subconsciously advert ourselves from its proximity, while at the same time being vocal about accusations based on nationality...

People are trained from birth to not accept people who are different from their family and friends, and because of the way certain groups of people can be outwardly portrayed by even member of said group we find ourselves easily dismissing that group, like your analogy of crossing the street to avoid people of a certain appearance.

macogw

August 26th, 2009, 09:26 PM

Y'all are bordering on a flamewar. Stop it, or I close this thread. Just go back to "haha oh that silly Photoshop job..."

azangru

August 26th, 2009, 09:40 PM

And I thought we were trying to be reasonable and impartial.

(sighs, obediently): Haha oh that silly Photoshop job...

Perfect Storm

August 26th, 2009, 09:48 PM

After much consideration, Microsoft has decided to release a third version of the advertisement. This should put all concerns to rest.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3003/500xmicrosoftphotoshop3.png

Well, the ads aren't aimed at Linux users. If it was, we would have seen Chuck Norris in it.

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 10:01 PM

Have a break, have a ki...oh no, thats product placement ;)

They use the same ad spot around the globe eh? that makes those chocolate factory people non-racist then :) (it might be "have a break , have a white kat" in Poland, i haven't checked yet - it's the same here at least)

back to topic though, seems i haven't lost anything while i was gone - the topic just went down to flame war, even more than it was before. well time to end it :) . at least the poll shows that most people consider it non-racist , that's enough for me :)

aesis05401

August 26th, 2009, 10:16 PM

Y'all are bordering on a flamewar. Stop it, or I close this thread. Just go back to "haha oh that silly Photoshop job..."

Wait, I want to go back to blaming Poland for things. Or at the very least, I would like to find out why nobody is up in arms about the wireless monitor technology that was leaked in these photos?! It is clear there has been a cover-up of wireless monitor technology just like the free-energy machine cover up by the U.S. guv :)

JDShu

August 26th, 2009, 10:20 PM

I dont understand, its an add. Companies do this all the time. The food industry is one of the worst. Think of fast food, does your Whopper ever look as good as the picture, hell no, its usually thrown together and very sloppy. the burger not the ad...

The people who made the ad changed the people to reflect the culture of the local customer. Usually they review ads using groups to see how effective they are. maybe having a white man scored higher points overall in places like Poland.

Is it a bad photoshop, yeah sure, but marketing is a tough job, and sometimes leads to issues were they need to rush it into production.

Anyone remember the Sony PSP adds from a little while ago, now those were controversial
http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/06/sony-under-fire-for-racist-advertising/

Whats not to understand? The marketing department failed. The pictures didn't encourage people to buy the product. Rather, it made people laugh because of the terribly noticeable Photoshop job, and in the meantime exposing the racially motivated strategies. Failing in your job is not acceptable in today's society :P

Btw, just curious... are Asians common in Poland?

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 10:20 PM

Wait, I want to go back to blaming Poland for things. Or at the very least, I would like to find out why nobody is up in arms about the wireless monitor technology that was leaked in these photos?! It is clear there has been a cover-up of wireless monitor technology just like the free-energy machine cover up by the U.S. guv :)

do you all people believe that there a mistake with the keyboard ??

the usb is just connected under the table on a usb hub, that is connected to the computer. (!)
this is some basic done even at really small offices when you have to share one computer over two or more monitors (!)

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 10:20 PM

Whats not to understand? The marketing department failed. The pictures didn't encourage people to buy the product. Rather, it made people laugh because of the terribly noticeable Photoshop job, and in the meantime exposing the racially motivated strategies. Failing in your job is not acceptable in today's society :P

Btw, just curious... are Asians common in Poland?

i am sure that noone will change his mind about microsoft over a picture

JDShu

August 26th, 2009, 10:27 PM

i am sure that noone will change his mind about microsoft over a picture

Arguing semantics but... this particular picture probably drew more negative attention than positive. Hence marketer fail.

chriskin

August 26th, 2009, 10:30 PM

Arguing semantics but... this particular picture probably drew more negative attention than positive. Hence marketer fail.

it drew negative attention from people that either wouldn't care for the image and want microsoft products either way, as well as people who wouldn't buy their products.

so, it didn't make any difference

Dullstar

August 26th, 2009, 10:31 PM

Microsoft can be bashed more! They're racist!
Hmm. Let's think of their other ads.

What is the likelihood of seeing "Get a PC. I'm a PC and I throw chairs at everything!" contained in their ads? :lolflag::lolflag::lolflag::lolflag: I love seeing the FAIL in their ads. I wonder if this one has encountered Failblog yet?