Computer illiteracy - Annoying?

[stwschool]

I'm sure others here have similar views so I'm probably just preaching to the choir, but jesus it annoys me how computer-illiterate some people are. The thing is though it's not just old people who've never seen a computer before (I actually know some very literate oldies) but kids too.

It seems to me that the current generation of kids is LESS literate than mine. I suspect some of this is related to their poor attention span (certainly I observe this in my own lessons and those of other teachers when compared to my own experiences at school as a kid).

When I was a kid, there was typically no single dominant format. I began on an Amstrad CPC464 as a very small one, typing in code listings from magazines to make some crappy sprite do something that was allegedly a game. Then an Atari ST, and at school the BBC model B and then the Acorn computers, before eventually PCs with Windows. I think that's relevant.

One system didn't get so embedded that you couldn't learn anything else, so my generation are, I suspect, more adaptable because of that. Kids around now have only known XP (with a few messing with Vista) and I think that's really hurting their IT skills.

For my part I'm trying to expose the kids I teach to as many different platforms as possible, I've had them use Atari ST and CPC through emulators, Windows in various flavours, Linux with lots of different window managers and desktop environments and even the linux terminal. I'm hoping that by the end of it all they'll be super-geniuses compared to everyone else out there :) We'll see I guess but this is my experiment and I hope it flies.

[luffy_chan_19]

see i dont so much think that it is annoying much, but interesting that certain types of people do not have a wide spread library of knowledge packed into their heads. but know only bits and peices of what they learn. in recent years knowing anything other than what is on tv today is said to be nerdy and shunned, because they do not understand the need to have so much knowledge. they beleive the way of the past is obsolete and the way of the future is now. but in order to understand recent breakthroughs you mush have a solid foundation on where it all began. including obsolete code. most kids dont want to hear about fortran or basic or qbasic anymore. they would rather roam the streets and cause mass destruction, which is kinda rediculous. they say knowledge is the way to the future, but all kids know now is "when is the next party?" in this age we have too many people who are just lazy. i am 19 and i beleive that every single person in the world should get educated, and break the sycle of ignorance.

[Bezmotivnik]

When I was a kid, there was typically no single dominant format.
Yeah, I've been on the Internet since 1984 with a CP/M machine and a 300-Baud acoustic coupler. I don't look back on that with any fondness.

For my part I'm trying to expose the kids I teach to as many different platforms as possible
Why?

It's a total waste of time.

They need to learn how to produce the maximum amount of productive outcomes -- finished work -- per minute spent on process.

All that stuff is mere process, a dead end. Futzing around.

They need to learn how to do real work with the dominant OS with the minimum amount of time wasted on learning curve.

It kills geeks to hear this, but it's real-world common sense.

[3rdalbum]

I have noticed this too, and I agree.

I think it's due to the perception by educators that "Kids already know how to use computers". Sure, kids have learnt how to install and play Far Cry on their computers, but apart from playing games and chatting on MSN, many of them don't know diddly-squat.

So because our generation was taught computing and picked it up quickly, teachers and parents now seem to think that kids are born with computer literacy.

[JillSwift]

Why?

It's a total waste of time.

They need to learn how to produce the maximum amount of productive outcomes -- finished work -- per minute spent on process.

All that stuff is mere process, a dead end. Futzing around.

They need to learn how to do real work with the dominant OS with the minimum amount of time wasted on learning curve.

It kills geeks to hear this, but it's real-world common sense.
You know what they say about knowing only one tool:
"If all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail."

Knowing tools by their uses and specialties makes a flexible worker who is rarely stopped by changing situations.
Knowing a single tool by rote makes a robot who needs instruction every time things change.

I know who I'd rather hire.

[stwschool]

Yeah, I've been on the Internet since 1984 with a CP/M machine and a 300-Baud acoustic coupler. I don't look back on that with any fondness.

Why?

It's a total waste of time.

They need to learn how to produce the maximum amount of productive outcomes -- finished work -- per minute spent on process.

All that stuff is mere process, a dead end. Futzing around.

They need to learn how to do real work with the dominant OS with the minimum amount of time wasted on learning curve.

It kills geeks to hear this, but it's real-world common sense.
Hardly a waste of time. By developing their skills in this way they're not just trained rats pushing a button to get x outcome and then clueless when the button's not there/moves somewhere else. Before this experiment started I was finding that problem. I'm seeing some improvement in this, the kids are slowly becoming more independent and are starting to get new applications worked out much more quickly.

I can get grade 5 to produce nice MS Word documents, spreadsheets, powerpoints, etc very very quickly, but doing that they don't really LEARN anything, they just know that this button does this, this and this. I'm trying to teach them problem-solving, such that any task on a computer that they don't know, they can make an educated guess at it, they'll know where to look. Using a million different interfaces they'll learn where things tend to hide.

Plus, education should be broad (at school level at least). As such they don't need to know the structure of a plant cell, after all how many employers really give a monkeys if they know that? The point is we teach them that stuff so that they have enough knowledge to make choices at 16 about their further education and career options.

[stwschool]

Hardly a waste of time. By developing their skills in this way they're not just trained rats pushing a button to get x outcome and then clueless when the button's not there/moves somewhere else. Before this experiment started I was finding that problem. I'm seeing some improvement in this, the kids are slowly becoming more independent and are starting to get new applications worked out much more quickly.

I can get grade 5 to produce nice MS Word documents, spreadsheets, powerpoints, etc very very quickly, but doing that they don't really LEARN anything, they just know that this button does this, this and this. I'm trying to teach them problem-solving, such that any task on a computer that they don't know, they can make an educated guess at it, they'll know where to look. Using a million different interfaces they'll learn where things tend to hide.

Plus, education should be broad (at school level at least). As such they don't need to know the structure of a plant cell, after all how many employers really give a monkeys if they know that? The point is we teach them that stuff so that they have enough knowledge to make choices at 16 about their further education and career options.
Ok Jill said it so much better than me!

[Skripka]

I have noticed this too, and I agree.

I think it's due to the perception by educators that "Kids already know how to use computers". Sure, kids have learnt how to install and play Far Cry on their computers, but apart from playing games and chatting on MSN, many of them don't know diddly-squat.

So because our generation was taught computing and picked it up quickly, teachers and parents now seem to think that kids are born with computer literacy.

Current gen kids know how to point and click...but beyond that they are clueless.

[Bezmotivnik]

So because our generation was taught computing and picked it up quickly, teachers and parents now seem to think that kids are born with computer literacy.
People then only did because they HAD to know a lot about computers, too, or have someone else deal with getting it where it didn't crash.

Now kids don't. Computers are for the most part stable appliances. They rightfully want the appliance to work for them, not the other way around.

That's a good thing, not a bad thing. It means that computers are finally succeeding in their fulfilling their intended function.

[Skripka]

People then only did because they HAD to know a lot about computers, too, or have someone else deal with getting it where it didn't crash.

Now kids don't. Computers are for the most part stable appliances. They rightfully want the appliance to work for them, not the other way around.

That's a good thing, not a bad thing. It means that computers are finally succeeding in their fulfilling their intended function.

Look at cars. Another area of great growth technologically.


It has gotten to the point that LITERALLY, if someone has their engine-hood open at the side of the road--they are SOL. People nowadays cannot fix a car at all-they can gas it up, put oil in it-and if they are lucky change windshieldwiper plades....but that is the limit of 99% of car owners.


Ask a car owner with a broken car, "Is it a good thing that cars run so well that they are impossible to fix by the user/owner?" They will say yes-until they look at how much the labor costs to get their appliance working again.

[Bezmotivnik]

Hardly a waste of time. By developing their skills in this way they're not just trained rats pushing a button to get x outcome and then clueless when the button's not there/moves somewhere else. Before this experiment started I was finding that problem. I'm seeing some improvement in this, the kids are slowly becoming more independent and are starting to get new applications worked out much more quickly.

I can get grade 5 to produce nice MS Word documents, spreadsheets, powerpoints, etc very very quickly, but doing that they don't really LEARN anything, they just know that this button does this, this and this.
OK, but that's progressively all they'll ever need to know.

That simplicity is the very object of computer progress.

Less learning curve is better than more learning curve.


I'm trying to teach them problem-solving, such that any task on a computer that they don't know, they can make an educated guess at it, they'll know where to look. Using a million different interfaces they'll learn where things tend to hide.
That's quite different than torturing them with obsolete OSs.


Plus, education should be broad (at school level at least). As such they don't need to know the structure of a plant cell, after all how many employers really give a monkeys if they know that? The point is we teach them that stuff so that they have enough knowledge to make choices at 16 about their further education and career options.
OK, but what you're talking about is not actual education, but survey.

Maybe some kid will want to be a computer geek, but garden-variety geeks are a glut -- for reasons that are another thread. Better someone with actual writing skills that someone who knows all the shortcut keystrokes to six word-processing programs.

[stwschool]

People then only did because they HAD to know a lot about computers, too, or have someone else deal with getting it where it didn't crash.

Now kids don't. Computers are for the most part stable appliances. They rightfully want the appliance to work for them, not the other way around.

That's a good thing, not a bad thing. It means that computers are finally succeeding in their fulfilling their intended function.
Ah but they are not. People DO still have to know about computers. They have to know what a file is, what a folder is, how to organise them. They have to know about software, how to install it, etc. It's a world away from an appliance such as a fridge. Plus, frankly stable is debatable. Should a stable appliance be fighting off viruses all the time?

People need to be computer literate. An example is one of our teachers. He didn't understand why he couldn't open an attachment on one computer that worked on another. The reason? One had Office 2007 and the other has 2003. Now, being literate you'd look at the extension, and even if you'd never seen it before you could google it and find the answer. He lacked that skill and so is not computer literate. Computer literacy is the ability to solve a problem.

You missed my point on school education, presumably because you were in a hurry? Education is there to provide a broad outlook on many different topics such that kids can make decisions at 16 regarding further education and careers. As such I'm showing them that they can use IT for MS Office (which incidentally they're absolutely fine with), music production, video, building websites, running a web server, maintaining security, and a whole bunch of other stuff. When they get to 16 they'll have lots of info on which to base career choices. My job is NOT to supply Office-using drones to the corporate world. As such we could kick kids out of school at 12 with what the corporate world needs.

Finally, just teaching them how to use one thing.. let's say they learn Office 2007 in grade 4 (incidentally my 4th graders are excellent at MS Office). 8 years pass between then and leaving school (well here anyway) by which time Office 2007 will be out of date. Should I just keep teaching Office 2007-2008-2009 every grade every year just so they can use one company's products?

I want my kids to be excited about using computers, and to be the future engineers who develop the next great piece of software, or who build the next google, or who invent the next microprocessor breakthrough. Why on earth would I limit their horizons?

[balloooza]

in recent years knowing anything other than what is on tv today is said to be nerdy and shunned
This is so true with me (in school) I am not one who follows the trend, but I think the reason is that TV stars are so ignorant that they cannot hold a real job, and were so fed up from learning they dropped out of school, and now without care are showing how cool it is to be a looser (and making huge ammounts at doing it. Did you ever notice that if you do somthing whong you get cought, what do you know... the police and responsible people are not idiots, they can be just as devious as the person they are after. Don't steal copyrighted files (downloadable) what do you think a computer on the internet with a bittorrent client looks like, use some magical anonymous thing, phhh, no such thing, do you think that the company that runs the proxy server wants to be charged with transferring illegal files, no, they keep a log file, WITH YOUR IP, what do you know, you were cought, tada. ever notice that simply saying somthing like good morning SOMEHOW gets you a better grade, and if you are usualy the first to go, do not participate, and cheat, you suddenly are failing, that is no coincidence, a faculty member knows that you do not need to knoe when king tut was burried, and at what age, they do know that a) people in the buisness / "Real" world like nice people better, so in the end they succedded, and say it not so, teachers accually realize that what they are teaching you is of so little importance, they are not teaching you about history, they are teaching you to be a better person, they will judge your dedication based on if you bring in homework, and if you study.
You can now see that true geek in me, as for the computer thing... this is how to teach somone about a computer: present them with somthing unfermilliar, computer classed only pound in microsoft, they complicate somthing, interfaces are designed to be usefull, not glossy, put them on openbox, when they cry because there windows dissappear because they minimised them, get them back up and stop the window manager, let them appreciate the difference between a window and a window border, and then start tint, dont let them use firefox, make them use seamonkey, then there human intuition kicks in at that point, and they see not the computer as somthing that can do things that you do not quite understand, this is when people start thinking about things, like what it means to close a window, and what it means to maximise one, I guarentee that the person will now start appreciating a computer more.

[chessnerd]

Nowadays people don't really learn how to use computers as a whole, they learn how to do specific tasks: open Internet Explorer to use Twitter, open Microsoft Word to type your report, open iTunes to listen to music. It's all at the very most basic level.

When they start a computer they don't see any real difference between Mac and Windows or Windows and Linux, they might ask "Where's the Internet?" or "Where's Word?" and, because browsers and word processors are very similar, if you point them to Firefox and OpenOffice they'll be just fine and they might not even notice a difference.

I find computer illiteracy annoying, but I always try to be patient with people who are willing to learn. The people I have a real problem with are those who have a "don't know, don't care, don't want to care" attitude towards learning computers. That, in my opinion, is really annoying.

[stwschool]

OK, but that's progressively all they'll ever need to know.

That simplicity is the very object of computer progress.

Less learning curve is better than more learning curve.


That's quite different than torturing them with obsolete OSs.


OK, but what you're talking about is not actual education, but survey.

Maybe some kid will want to be a computer geek, but garden-variety geeks are a glut -- for reasons that are another thread. Better someone with actual writing skills that someone who knows all the shortcut keystrokes to six word-processing programs.
You're completely missing the point, repeatedly. I'm teaching these kids to solve problems. I'm not teaching them the keystroke combinations for 6 different word processors. I'm teaching them how stuff works so that they can always figure out how new stuff works without anyone having to teach them.

Or to put it another way. Give a man a fish and he'll feed himself for a day. Teach him how to fish and he'll set up a shop selling fish, employ more people to help him fish and eventually take over the world with his fish empire. Point made?

[stwschool]

Anyway I'm off for a shower and breakfast, I shall be back for more debate later (btw it's always more fun when there's 2 opposing viewpoints, so thank you Bezmotivnik, without your input this could have been dull!)

[Bezmotivnik]

You missed my point on school education, presumably because you were in a hurry? Education is there to provide a broad outlook on many different topics such that kids can make decisions at 16 regarding further education and careers.

No, as I said, that is called survey. That's the correct educational terminology for it.


My job is NOT to supply Office-using drones to the corporate world. As such we could kick kids out of school at 12 with what the corporate world needs.
Not that you're psychic. College counselors can't even manage a four-year lead on that particular bird.


Finally, just teaching them how to use one thing.. let's say they learn Office 2007 in grade 4 (incidentally my 4th graders are excellent at MS Office). 8 years pass between then and leaving school (well here anyway) by which time Office 2007 will be out of date. Should I just keep teaching Office 2007-2008-2009 every grade every year just so they can use one company's products?
If the funding was there to reflect the current optimum workskill, yeah. Who wants to learn WordStar? Incredibly, I saw schools teaching that dead duck as recently as five years ago.


I want my kids to be excited about using computers, and to be the future engineers who develop the next great piece of software, or who build the next google, or who invent the next microprocessor breakthrough. Why on earth would I limit their horizons?
Remember, you're the guy with the obsolete OSs. Where's the future in that?

Here's the problem: "Computers" are your own personal hobbyhorse you're pushing to your kids. If I were a parent, I might resent the fact you weren't pushing something more predictably stable and professionally flexible, such as math or communications skills.

[Katalog]

You know what they say about knowing only one tool:
"If all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail."

Knowing tools by their uses and specialties makes a flexible worker who is rarely stopped by changing situations.
Knowing a single tool by rote makes a robot who needs instruction every time things change.

I know who I'd rather hire.

It's funny you should use that analogy. I have that quote framed and hung on the wall behind my desk, only it's slightly different and says:

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail"

It's there to remind me, as a manager, that I don't always have to use harsh discipline to deal with employee issues, but more relevant to this thread, also to remind the people that work for me that flexibility and diversity is the key to tackling problems. It seems more often than not that the younger the employee is the more difficult it is for me to ingrain that ethos of expanding your toolkit so that you have the ability to weigh several different solutions to solving a single problem.

[chessnerd]

I want my kids to be excited about using computers, and to be the future engineers who develop the next great piece of software, or who build the next google, or who invent the next microprocessor breakthrough. Why on earth would I limit their horizons?

+1, Couldn't have put it better myself.


Give a man a fish and he'll feed himself for a day. Teach him how to fish and he'll set up a shop selling fish, employ more people to help him fish and eventually take over the world with his fish empire. Point made?

To lose the analogy: Fix a guy's computer, he'll be set until another problem comes along, but teach the guy to fix his own computer and he can open up an IT business, higher more IT guys, and take over the world with his IT solutions empire.

I'd rather have my kids get payed to fix other people's computers than have them pay someone else to fix their's.

[Bezmotivnik]

but more relevant to this thread, also to remind the people that work for me that flexibility and diversity is the key to tackling problems.
But the object is get the problems solved and move on.

How you do it and who does it doesn't really matter to a good manager as long as it gets done with the minimum downtime and cost.

[mamamia88]

why are parents so bad at computers? my parents have been using computers as long as i have heck they bought my first computer and yet they need help doing everything

[chessnerd]

But the object is get the problems solved and move on.

How you do it and who does it doesn't really matter to a good manager as long as it gets done with the minimum downtime and cost.

Whenever a problem happens with my mother's computer, do you know what her solution is? Reboot.

Every single problem has the same solution even though this rarely solves the true problem. In the case of my family's desktop, the problem was a lack of RAM, which I fixed by:

A. Rebooting the computer
B. Restarting Windows
C. Turning the computer off and then back on
or
D. Installing more RAM

If I was not computer literate my mother's main computer, which she does her taxes on, has all her files on, uses to do everything, would still be as slow as it was months ago.

Being well rounded is the key to coming up with solutions that actually fix the problem.

[Bezmotivnik]

Fix a guy's computer, he'll be set until another problem comes along, but teach the guy to fix his own computer and he can open up an IT business, higher more IT guys, and take over the world with his IT solutions empire.
This is the dominant, hopeless untergeek fantasy of retro-1983.

Trust me, that's not going to happen.


I'd rather have my kids get payed to fix other people's computers than have them pay someone else to fix their's.
I would rather they be taught accumulating education such as math, English, chemistry, etc. rather than mere survey with a limited shelf life.

When the time comes, they'll presumably be in an economic situation where a few bucks to an untergeek is a trivial consideration, if computers haven't progressed to being maintenance-free by then.

[MikeTheC]

You know what they say about knowing only one tool:
"If all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail."

Knowing tools by their uses and specialties makes a flexible worker who is rarely stopped by changing situations.
Knowing a single tool by rote makes a robot who needs instruction every time things change.

I know who I'd rather hire.

What Jill said.

[JillSwift]

But the object is get the problems solved and move on.Which can NOT happen with employees who don't have the knowledge to solve problems. Knowing why the tool works, and what tool is best for what are necessary skills to get problems solved. This can not be achieved without knowing more than one tool.


How you do it and who does it doesn't really matter to a good manager as long as it gets done with the minimum downtime and cost.How it's done does matter, unless you're management team is hideously myopic about the future of the business.

Solving localized problems is one thing, keeping the system from turning into a mess of small solutions and work-arounds is quite another.

Again, an employee with broad knowlege (including the history of) his tools is of vastly greater value than someone who has a rote knowledge of the use of an appliance.

[chessnerd]

if computers haven't progressed to being maintenance-free by then.

I bet that many years ago a guy was talking with some auto-mechanic saying, "Hey, don't teach your kids anything about cars. By the time that they grow up, cars will be totally maintenance-free and only complete losers will know anything about them." Here we are, over 100 years into the life of the automobile and cars still break down all the time and good mechanics make good money.

A computer is like a car: it works great and never needs maintenance... until is breaks. There will always be a demand for computer professionals, even if that demand switches from desktops to robots, people in the future will need to know how to work with computers. It is not a waste of time to learn how a computer works.

[Bezmotivnik]

Which can NOT happen with employees who don't have the knowledge to solve problems. Knowing why the tool works, and what tool is best for what are necessary skills to get problems solved. This can not be achieved without knowing more than one tool.
You also can't have people obsessed with "the tools." You want results that are good enough for the purpose with the minimum downtime.

Nothing else matters. The purity of your kung-fu is irrelevant.

As my ex-wife's late father used to say, "The object is to get the paint out of the bucket and onto the wall."


How it's done does matter, unless you're management team is hideously myopic about the future of the business.

Solving localized problems is one thing, keeping the system from turning into a mess of small solutions and work-arounds is quite another.

My experience in the real world absolutely indicates otherwise.

Success is nothing but adaptive ad hoc solutions by outcome-oriented people.

[MikeTheC]

It's a total waste of time.
In fact, I'll go ya one step further and ask what in the aich ee double-hockey-stick you're doing on a Linux forum in the first place?

Of all the confounded arrogance and hypocracy. "Gee, I'll hang out on a Linux message board and attack someone on it for suggesting people use things other than Windows." Well DUH, dude!

EDIT: Oh, and just how do you think you're going to get those "successful ad hoc solutions" from people who only know one tool and one methodology? Or do you think painting the entire house with a roller or a paint brush or a spray gun is the only way to get the paint from the can to the walls?

[JillSwift]

You also can't have people obsessed with "the tools." You want results that are good enough for the purpose with the minimum downtime.Red herring and irrelevant. I'm not talking about obsession nor is anyone else.


As my ex-wife's late father used to say, "The object is to get the paint out of the bucket and onto the wall."And anyone can do that by chucking the paint at the wall. Of course, people pay the ones that can do the job well. And the ones that do it well use more than just a roller, they also have edging brushes, sill brushes, flexible masking techniques but mostly experience (at first by way of apprenticeship), granting them more than a rote knowledge of applying paint to a wall.

Again: The ignorant, rote worker is not valuable.


My experience in the real world absolutely indicates otherwise.

Success is nothing but adaptive ad hoc solutions by outcome-oriented people.
On the short term, sure. But IT requires long term thinking. My experience bears that out, but personal experience means nothing. Study of the history of IT will bear that out with meaning.

I mean, if you enjoy spending lots of money rebuilding systems every few years in order to regain control over your IT systems, I don't think the OEMs will mind. But your investors might.

[Bezmotivnik]

A computer is like a car: it works great and never needs maintenance... until is breaks. There will always be a demand for computer professionals, even if that demand switches from desktops to robots, people in the future will need to know how to work with computers. It is not a waste of time to learn how a computer works.
Your analogy ill-serves your point: Cars are essentially maintenance-free and disposable but have a useful life of at least twice what they did thirty years ago when they required more maintenance. If your car needs substantial work at under 100,000 miles, you've grossly abused it or it's a lemon.

Working on computers has also gone the same way. Most need no work on the hardware ever until they are obsolete in a couple of years at most, and they're cheap enough to depreciate and throw out.

Every year, computers become MORE reliable and less "fixable." Mainstream software becomes more reliable or it's replaced by something that is.

I used to work on computers for a living, because when I started I had to develop good skills with hardware and software just to keep my own going.

These days working on them is largely unnecessary, so I don't.

[3rdalbum]

People then only did because they HAD to know a lot about computers, too, or have someone else deal with getting it where it didn't crash.

Now kids don't. Computers are for the most part stable appliances. They rightfully want the appliance to work for them, not the other way around.

You've got it SO wrong. Kids don't even know how to USE computers.

I used to run a little web server on my home computer so my friends could download files from me. In the end I also got a lot of young teenagers downloading. The most common query I got was:

"I just downloaded a file from you, but I can't find it on my computer. Where is it?"

I also got:

"well i am tryin to watch the hi-5 interview but it is saved to windvd and it says it cant play bcoz there is no valid drive/disk found"

Trying to open a Realplayer file in a DVD player... yeah, that'll work.

"Where should I download it to?"

It's your computer.

"I don't know where to download it to, can't I bookmark it?"

Well what happens if you want to use the file when I'm offline?

"My Windows Media Player isn't working properly, can't you put these up in Mp3 format?"

They *are* in MP3 format, that's what the ".mp3" extension indicates.

"How do I e-mail you a file?"

Kids don't need to be able to recite the minimum speeds and latencies of DDR 3 memory, or learn BASIC, but time and time again I've come across young teenagers who don't know how to work with files and folders, do anything with MS-Office except typing in Word, or do anything with e-mail except forward chain messages and jot replies.

Why aren't teachers teaching the kids this sort of thing? Because "The younger generation is already good with computers".

[inobe]

lets go back in time when we knew nothing and imagine where or what level of experience others acquired !

can we separate the individuals that try really hard to the ones that do not ?

one can be illiterate for some time than progress.

[MikeTheC]

You've got it SO wrong. Kids don't even know how to USE computers.
Dude's a troll.

Why aren't teachers teaching the kids this sort of thing? Because "The younger generation is already good with computers".

Because many teachers are technologically wilfully illiterate themselves (ignorant teachers! what delicious irony!) and all of them whether illiterate, ignorant, or savvy, work in a system that forces them to teach to the test and a society that's so divided, distracted and self-absorbed that it doesn't care.

[Bezmotivnik]

You've got it SO wrong. Kids don't even know how to USE computers.

[...]

Why aren't teachers teaching the kids this sort of thing? Because "The younger generation is already good with computers".
My experience with kids and this sort of thing is that they quickly teach each other and learn quick so as not to look stupid among their peers.

The ones too stupid (and there are plenty) just fall by the wayside and shoot hoops instead.

But the point is that what they need to know is orders of magnitude more accessible than it used to be.

It's not like they have to struggle through CP/M command lines of ninety-three characters.

"Dude, how do I do that"

"Here...[click]"

"Oh, cool, that icon there...Thanks!"

That's the present and more so the future. The future is in minimizing learning curves

[Bezmotivnik]

Dude's a troll.
You're wrong.


Because many teachers are technologically wilfully illiterate themselves (ignorant teachers! what delicious irony!) and all of them whether illiterate, ignorant, or savvy, work in a system that forces them to teach to the test and a society that's so divided, distracted and self-absorbed that it doesn't care.
You're right.

I used to be a teacher. I hated everything about it except the kids, who were monumentally ill-served by the "education establishment."

[JillSwift]

Tip: Don't accuse people of something you can't spell.pro-tip: Don't bother going after the spelling, it doesnt' disguise the fact you didn't deny the accusation.


Secondly, you haven't given a reason why learning obsolete OSs (remember, that what I was responding to -- teaching kids antique OSs, not Linux as such) isn't a waste of time.
History lets us know why things are the way they are, and how not to get into messes others have already been in, and what made things successful in the past so we have a greater chance of making decisions that will allow us to be successful in the future.

Knowledge is power and of value to others around you.
Rote training is slavery.

[KiwiNZ]

The education systems has a lot of higher priorities to computer literacy.

[JillSwift]

The education systems has a lot of higher priorities to computer literacy.
Yes. The interesting thing being that the same basic problem being discussed here - rote learning and regurgitation of said - extends across all subjects.

[Bezmotivnik]

pro-tip: Don't bother going after the spelling, it doesnt' disguise the fact you didn't deny the accusation.
It was just an ignorant insult that required no more response.

Different views (and their consideration) are what distinguish an adult discussion from the typical fanboy circle-jerk here.

Remember: When all you people think alike, none of you think very much.


History lets us know why things are the way they are, and how not to get into messes others have already been in, and what made things successful in the past so we have a greater chance of making decisions that will allow us to be successful in the future.

Knowledge is power and of value to others around you.
Rote training is slavery.
Getting from those lofty and abstract sentiments to specifically why someone should spend my kid's educational time fooling around with CP/M is quite a stretch, you must admit.

Getting life value from that is like extracting gold from seawater.

Moreover, if I were a parent I would wonder about a teacher who was doing that if my kid couldn't write a competently executed, grammatical one-page essay or work at above grade level in math. He's not going to get that engineering degree if he can't.

I'm tired and my back's killing me. I'm going to bed. You people hate someone else real hard for a while, OK?

Thanks. :rolleyes:

[ugm6hr]

They need to learn how to do real work with the dominant OS with the minimum amount of time wasted on learning curve.

I know the debate has moved on from this statement, but it essentially revolves around the same point. I always find this an interesting debate.

While this argument makes sense at first, most employers appreciate that it is not useful for higher level employees.

This is why universities teach learning skills rather than pure knowledge itself (in the UK), and there has been a particular emphasis on this in healthcare careers due to the lifelong learning nature of these positions.

My foray into educational theories has been a bit brief, but I think learning a specific process (i.e. the MS way) cannot be compared to problem-solving skills by exposure to multiple environments. These skills should translate to non-IT arenas too, if problem-based learning is reinforced, making more useful employees in the long term.

[inobe]

oh my

can't believe that was said


Originally Posted by Bezmotivnik View Post
They need to learn how to do real work with the dominant OS with the minimum amount of time wasted on learning curve.

edit: what learning curve ?

the first computer i touched was a apple IIc in the 2nd grade' then commodore 64' windows 3.1 and up, finally linux.

you cannot put a limit on the human mind, challenging tasks help children to progress faster in school.

[JillSwift]

It was just an ignorant insult that required no more response.

Different views (and their consideration) are what distinguish an adult discussion from the typical fanboy circle-jerk here.

Remember: When all you people think alike, none of you think very much.Fallacies: Ad Hominem in return. Appeal to vanity.



Getting from those lofty and abstract sentiments to specifically why someone should spend my kid's educational time fooling around with CP/M is quite a stretch, you must admit.No, I feel no need to admit to your unsupported assertions.

Familiarity breeds competence. That's why history classes have field trips. That's why chemistry classes reproduce old experiments.


Getting life value from that is like extracting gold from seawater.Fallacy: False analogy.


Moreover, if I were a parent I would wonder about a teacher who was doing that if my kid couldn't write a competently executed, grammatical one-page essay or work at above grade level in math. He's not going to get that engineering degree if he can't.I'd wonder at the parent who goes after a science teacher because the student can't use English very well.


I'm tired and my back's killing me. I'm going to bed. You people hate someone else real hard for a while, OK?Fallacies: Personalization of argument. Appeal to emotion. Appeal to consequence.

That is: I was unaware this was personal. Let me know next time.

[calrogman]

It seems to me that the current generation of kids is LESS literate than mine.

Hi, I was born in 1994. I can install Gentoo and am currently building an LFS system.

Blanket statements are awesome.

[Nburnes]

Hi, I was born in 1994. I can install Gentoo and am currently building an LFS system.

Blanket statements are awesome.
Aren't they? I was born in 1992 and I am going for my A+ Certification next month. Also have installed Gentoo, built my own rig, get paid to fix other machines. :KS

[lethalfang]

Look at cars. Another area of great growth technologically.


It has gotten to the point that LITERALLY, if someone has their engine-hood open at the side of the road--they are SOL. People nowadays cannot fix a car at all-they can gas it up, put oil in it-and if they are lucky change windshieldwiper plades....but that is the limit of 99% of car owners.


Ask a car owner with a broken car, "Is it a good thing that cars run so well that they are impossible to fix by the user/owner?" They will say yes-until they look at how much the labor costs to get their appliance working again.

On the other hand, think of it this way.
Does a person grow his own vegetable, milk his own cows, build his own caves to live in, and then get a job to pay his bills?
No.
He gets a job that he is good at (hopefully), and uses that as way to make money to buy the other things that he needs and wants, e.g., food, clothes, home, toys, etc.
People who are good at other things can provide those things for him, for a cost, which can then be used to buy them what they need.
This is economy.

[stwschool]

No, as I said, that is called survey. That's the correct educational terminology for it.


Not that you're psychic. College counselors can't even manage a four-year lead on that particular bird.


If the funding was there to reflect the current optimum workskill, yeah. Who wants to learn WordStar? Incredibly, I saw schools teaching that dead duck as recently as five years ago.


Remember, you're the guy with the obsolete OSs. Where's the future in that?

Here's the problem: "Computers" are your own personal hobbyhorse you're pushing to your kids. If I were a parent, I might resent the fact you weren't pushing something more predictably stable and professionally flexible, such as math or communications skills.
Ok working through the thread bit-by-bit...

I'm a computer teacher, I'm not gonna teach maths am I?

Regarding obsolete OSs, computer history is part of the curriculum, and thus livening it up with some real experience doesn't hurt.

Actually I do have a good idea of what is needed in industry. I wasn't always a teacher, I've been an IT professional for a number of years and also an employer (in a non-IT field) so this isn't just some teacher fresh out of university talking here, so I suggest you back up on that psychic comment.

I don't teach Wordstar. In terms of WP, I teach Office 2007, OpenOffice Writer and Google Docs. That represents a broad enough range with 3 very different models of development that can offer kids enough to make a choice.

Btw while I don't teach maths, I do spend time developing software to help our kids with their maths, as I like to help the kids with as many things as possible, but I'm not a maths teacher, so in computer lessons they don't learn maths. That's done in maths class.


Being well rounded is the key to coming up with solutions that actually fix the problem.
Damn right. I want my kids to have a rounded education, so that they know enough about everything such that even if they don't know the exact solution, they know where to find it. That's what a rounded education gives you.

Bezmotivnik, you seem obsessed with teaching maths, english and chemistry, but I'm not sure how that's relevant on a thread where we are discussing teaching of computers. Furthermore, to your way of thinking, why are we teaching kids algebra, calculus etc when industry doesn't need those things? We're trying to turn out well-rounded adults who can problem-solve with a wide range of skills, that's why.

Jill's got it right, and is saying this stuff better than me. My best employees have been the ones who can think on their feet. This was usually because they had a rounded set of skills that they can apply to lots of different situations. They were problem-solvers. They saved me a lot of money. I want staff like that. Knowing what tools to use when is important, as it's the only way to get solutions that are robust.


many teachers are technologically wilfully illiterate themselves
You're worryingly correct there. Certainly of our non-IT people the IT skills here are poor. Our former computer teacher (now teaching maths) needed help just to post on a forum. Let's just say that me turning up has improved things.

Carolgman - my apologies, I shouldn't have generalised. There are some (indeed we have a couple I've been teaching PHP and C programming to in extra classes, the 'geek club') who can do wonderful things. The majority however, without substantial intervention, are less literate.

Anyway, to those calling Mr/Mrs Bezmotivnik a troll, s/he is disagreeing with the majority view. That is not trolling, though perhaps some posts ignoring key elements of an argument and focusing on individual segments might be considered trollish. But having an opposing viewpoint makes for a much more interesting discourse, where it would be dull if we all agreed. I for one reserve the right for myself and Bezmotivnik to disagree, but also reserve the right for both of us to hold those opinions and believe in them fully.

[bodyharvester]

im 20, what i knew about computers i learned from trying to fix my Windows XP. After my first install of Ubuntu, i began to stop using it as a musicplayer and now i spend my time here learning terminal commands. I also began having unusual urges to "program" my own games, as id seen so many games in the "Add/Remove" were made by so many people, i know a tiny bit of python but hope to master it. i made a slightly buggy game with sprites yesterday.

i couldnt have done this without linux, i believe linux is the way to stop computer illiteracy.

when i was in school you learned on Windows and im not going to cushion it for anyone here, but i didnt learn jack from Windows.

[RabbitWho]

I'm (only, I like to say only) 23 and when I was in primary school there were no computers. Well actually i think when I was about 10 they got one in one of the classrooms, I remember it had a black screen and orange writing and all you could do was practise typing. Speaking of attention span? That was a night mare. And I learned nothing!
Then in my last year of primary school we got a computer room (which didn't have the Internet) and someone taught me how to play solitaire.
In secondary school there was a computer room filled with windows 95 computers, ridiculously slow ones, and 30 computers on a single dial-up 56k connection.
Again we just used them for typing. And I learned nothing!
Then when I was 13 we got our first computer at home, I developed a terrible internet addiction. And I learned how to type from msn!
I figured, if I'm going to spend half my on this thing, I might as well learn something at the same time, so i made myself put my fingers in the right places so that i'd learn to touch type, unlike all my friends with similar experiances who can type quite fast with their index fingers, but it's very impractical and of course there's a limit to it. I think the fastest of them types at 70 wpm vs my 90

So yeah. I know nothing about computers. I'm 23 and using linux for the first time. But it really wasn't possible to use it before now, only having one computer would have meant having no one to ask for help when I couldn't do something.



Computer crashed last time I was writing this. Thank goodness for Lazarus.

[Chame_Wizard]

It's annoying that a lot of people have no knowledge.

[stwschool]

Bodyharvester - Trust me you'll have a blast. I started making games in the old STOS basic back in the Atari ST days when I was only 12 but it's something that's stayed with me for a lifetime such that I'm now for a hobby project trying to build a browser-based massively multiplayer Mega-Lo-Mania type game. Once you start you never stop. Of course, an Atari ST with a copy of STOS was a fantastic beginner's programming environment, and that's the kind of thing kids need exposure to (albeit a modern version is preferable).

I was beginning to de-nerd somewhat til I switched to linux full-time, but since I did that I've found my old enthusiasm for coding coming back, which had started to wane while I was on Windows (probably because it doesn't really indulge my geeky side).

RabbitWho - Sounds like your school wasn't up to much :( My schools all had out-of-date equipment but they generally had SOMETHING. Of course due to my age, it was only in my last year at school that we got a single PC running Win95 connected to the internet. It was spoken of in hushed tones and only a few select individuals got that internet-connected machine but damn it was exciting! As one of the geekier students I got to play with it and find guitar tabs on it, a revelation to me at the time. I've been net-addicted ever since!

Sadly I think your experience does tell a great deal about the problems of education in schools. Unfortunately budgets are limited and IT is very expensive in relation to other subjects. At our school we moved to new premises and set up a new computer lab a couple of years ago and the expenditure on PCs was horrific. If I don't make those last about 7 or 8 years at least they'll have my bits on a platter!

The other problem is that most teachers don't know what a computer is. Even most IT teachers don't come from a background in the IT industry as far as I know, certainly most I've come accross. The end result is typically students running rings around them (I certainly did all through school, college and even university). Also, the curriculum in the UK doesn't exactly broaden their horizons. I'm lucky to have some freedom here to mix it up a bit, so I tend to steal the best bits from the US and UK curriculums and add my own special sauce so that the kids come out with what they'd need to pass GCSEs and the American equivalents, but also some real computer knowledge with which they can get out and be a real menace to society!

Btw having one computer's not a barrier to learning, just back everything up and then play with it til you break it, fix it, play with it again, break it, fix it. It's the surest way to learn.

[RabbitWho]

Bodyharvester - Trust me you'll have a blast. I started making games in the old STOS basic back in the Atari ST days when I was only 12 but it's something that's stayed with me for a lifetime such that I'm now for a hobby project trying to build a browser-based massively multiplayer Mega-Lo-Mania type game. Once you start you never stop. Of course, an Atari ST with a copy of STOS was a fantastic beginner's programming environment, and that's the kind of thing kids need exposure to (albeit a modern version is preferable).

I was beginning to de-nerd somewhat til I switched to linux full-time, but since I did that I've found my old enthusiasm for coding coming back, which had started to wane while I was on Windows (probably because it doesn't really indulge my geeky side).

RabbitWho - Sounds like your school wasn't up to much :( My schools all had out-of-date equipment but they generally had SOMETHING. Of course due to my age, it was only in my last year at school that we got a single PC running Win95 connected to the internet. It was spoken of in hushed tones and only a few select individuals got that internet-connected machine but damn it was exciting! As one of the geekier students I got to play with it and find guitar tabs on it, a revelation to me at the time. I've been net-addicted ever since!

Sadly I think your experience does tell a great deal about the problems of education in schools. Unfortunately budgets are limited and IT is very expensive in relation to other subjects. At our school we moved to new premises and set up a new computer lab a couple of years ago and the expenditure on PCs was horrific. If I don't make those last about 7 or 8 years at least they'll have my bits on a platter!

The other problem is that most teachers don't know what a computer is. Even most IT teachers don't come from a background in the IT industry as far as I know, certainly most I've come accross. The end result is typically students running rings around them (I certainly did all through school, college and even university). Also, the curriculum in the UK doesn't exactly broaden their horizons. I'm lucky to have some freedom here to mix it up a bit, so I tend to steal the best bits from the US and UK curriculums and add my own special sauce so that the kids come out with what they'd need to pass GCSEs and the American equivalents, but also some real computer knowledge with which they can get out and be a real menace to society!

Btw having one computer's not a barrier to learning, just back everything up and then play with it til you break it, fix it, play with it again, break it, fix it. It's the surest way to learn.


Sounds like you're a good teacher!

Our digital media teacher in college knew loads about computers.. but spoke very fast and mostly to himself... i think everyone went to one lesson and got frightened and for the rest of the year it was just me and occasionally a friend of mine who was just afraid of getting in trouble for not going.

It's funny that college had dozens of old computers sitting out in the hall, i was told they didn't want to pay to have someone take them away so they were hoping they'd be stolen.

Those could go to schools, have Xubuntu put on them, and the kids could learn loads and loads. And if they learned about things like that even the poorest kids could find some computer somewhere someone was throwing out and bring it home and get it working.

One problem was we had one very good computer room upstairs in secondary school. And I was in it once in 6 years. Of course after 6 years the computers were no longer up to much. Every time you passed it it was locked. It's so ridiculous, and the school won an award for it because of course when the inspectors came all the students were sitting there happily running eurotalk educational programs.
Award = more funding for the school and more computers they can buy and never let us use. Computers just aren't seen as important.
Our computer teacher was also a maths teacher and he used to give grinds (in Hiberno english that means intensive lessons) to honours maths (there are 3 levels of maths in Irish secondary schools and honours is the hardest) students during our computer lessons. We were supposed to do ECDL in those two years and in the end we were given our money back because he said "There just wasn't time" we had a total of one ECDL class and a computer class every week for 2 years, in which we would do our homework.
It is ridiculous because computers are absolutly essential for life now, and now there is a very bad recession (unemployment at 12 per cent, it was something like 5 per cent 3 years ago )here and IT is one of the few fields where there are still jobs. ( in other words the recession is Mr. Halpins fault. )
Meanwhile how useful is maths? To 99% of us not useful at all.. especially if we can't use computers!

[pwnst*r]

not everyone needs to be as computer literate as you. most kids don't need "IT skills". that's just silly.

[RATM_Owns]

http://rinkworks.com/stupid/

A lot of people only know that Mac OS X, Microsoft Windows, and Microsoft Internet Explorer (maybe Safari) exist.

[longtom]

<snip>. Sorry, but that's how you come across.

A well thought through, intellectual statement, refuting all arguments in one sentence. The pinnacle of wisdom - impressive....

Now - I am only ( and I also like to say only:P) 45 and there was no such thing as a computer in school (of course - for most of you this is probably late stone age...).

That was, in retrospect, possibly one of the main reasons we loved it with real passion. Typing commands into a box connected to a tv screen and hoping you get something different than "syntax error", loading up tapes in the hope they will lead to something we called "games", that was great.
Our parents hated it and the fact that we spent hours after hours with it...which made it even more attractive.

Today it's part of every days live - and, as we all now aware - a school subject. Heck - no wonder no kid who, has a name to defend in it's peer group, will be caught dead with it - it's just so uncool! It's like somebody in my class would have a deep love for latin...an unfailing way to be "out".

Since computers are not a craze any more, you'll get most people not doing much with it - and than there are the occasional geeks.

Now - that might be just...live?

Edit: wait a minute...didn't this thread just looked different a minute ago...???

[nomnomnom]

A well thought through, intellectual statement, refuting all arguments in one sentence. The pinnacle of wisdom - impressive....

Now - I am only ( and I also like to say only:P) 45 and there was no such thing as a computer in school (of course - for most of you this is probably late stone age...).

That was, in retrospect, possibly one of the main reasons we loved it with real passion. Typing commands into a box connected to a tv screen and hoping you get something different than "syntax error", loading up tapes in the hope they will lead to something we called "games", that was great.
Our parents hated it and the fact that we spent hours after hours with it...which made it even more attractive.

Today it's part of every days live - and, as we all now aware - a school subject. Heck - no wonder no kid who, has a name to defend in it's peer group, will be caught dead with it - it's just so uncool! It's like somebody in my class would have a deep love for latin...an unfailing way to be "out".

Since computers are not a craze any more, you'll get most people not doing much with it - and than there are the occasional geeks.

Now - that might be just...live?

Edit: wait a minute...didn't this thread just looked different a minute ago...???


How's your cave?

[bodyharvester]

Edit: wait a minute...didn't this thread just looked different a minute ago...???

how so?

[longtom]

how so?

Don't know...probably some editing from the mods. There is also a snip in the quote I used, which I didn't snip.

No train smash...

[RabbitWho]

not everyone needs to be as computer literate as you. most kids don't need "IT skills". that's just silly.

I guarantee you there will come a time when that is like saying "Not everybody needs to learn to read and write".



A well thought through, intellectual statement, refuting all arguments in one sentence. The pinnacle of wisdom - impressive....

Now - I am only ( and I also like to say only:P) 45 and there was no such thing as a computer in school (of course - for most of you this is probably late stone age...).

That was, in retrospect, possibly one of the main reasons we loved it with real passion. Typing commands into a box connected to a tv screen and hoping you get something different than "syntax error", loading up tapes in the hope they will lead to something we called "games", that was great.
Our parents hated it and the fact that we spent hours after hours with it...which made it even more attractive.

Today it's part of every days live - and, as we all now aware - a school subject. Heck - no wonder no kid who, has a name to defend in it's peer group, will be caught dead with it - it's just so uncool! It's like somebody in my class would have a deep love for latin...an unfailing way to be "out".

Since computers are not a craze any more, you'll get most people not doing much with it - and than there are the occasional geeks.

Now - that might be just...live?

Edit: wait a minute...didn't this thread just looked different a minute ago...???


Hee hee that's great. I had a wonderful Atari 2000 games console I loved to bits, and later a sega mega drive. But they don't exsactly teach you anything do they? I've always been hooked up to some kind of screen.



I think this is the greatest time in human history. In so many ways, statistically when it is analysed world there is less violence now than ever before, even when you in include the world wars and the recent genocides. (There was a talk about it on a video on www.ted.com , I forget which one)
People are evolving, thought and ideas and science are becoming the centre of our world.
The internet and computers aren't controlled and there is almost complete freedom of information and even technology. (If you are fortunate enough to live in the developed world)
Our grandchildren are going to look back and envy us and think, what a wonderful time to be alive, how exciting, everything changing completely every 5 years and getting better all the time.
And computers are the centre of it all!

[/rant]

[kk0sse54]

Computer illiteracy - Annoying?

Computer elitism - Annoying? Definitely.

[RabbitWho]

Computer elitism - Annoying? Definitely.


I don't think it's elitism though. I mean I don't think he said "people who use windows are tea-pots" or anything like that. He's just promoting education and knowledge, that's the least elitist thing on the planet.

[longtom]

But they don't exsactly teach you anything do they?

I dunno... I guess we did learn something. Writing in basic - for once. And concentrating on typing...yeah - there were a couple of things we learned...

[kk0sse54]

I don't think it's elitism though. I mean I don't think he said "people who use windows are tea-pots" or anything like that. He's just promoting education and knowledge, that's the least elitist thing on the planet.

Because why should everyone care about computers so much? Why does everyone need to develop good IT skills? If you can type a document, browse the internet, and listen to music what more should most people be concerned with?

Neither the less perhaps elitism was too strong of a word in place of assuming your own perception on others.

[nomnomnom]

Computer elitism - Annoying? Definitely.

Lol, I kind of said that too....

[JillSwift]

Because why should everyone care about computers so much? Why does everyone need to develop good IT skills? If you can type a document, browse the internet, and listen to music what more should most people be concerned with?
Making the most of their computer.
Being able to handle small problems on their own.
Being able to competently communicate problems to help-centers.
Being competent in understanding help-center responses.

The (worn-out) car analogy fits well:
Driving in inclement weather requires more skill.
Being able to handle minor issues, and understanding maintenance, saves time and money.
Being able to communicate problems to your mechanic.
Sufficient familiarity helps prevent being "ripped-off" by unscrupulous mechanics.

The more you know, the better your experience in using any machine or device.

[RabbitWho]

I dunno... I guess we did learn something. Writing in basic - for once. And concentrating on typing...yeah - there were a couple of things we learned...
Oh on a regular Atari computer I'm sure but mine was just a games console like an early playstation, no keyboard, no typing.

[Danny Dubya]

*shrug*... People learn what matters to them. Always have, always will. I used to look down on the computer illiterate, until I grew up and stepped out of my small world, anyway. I don't find computer illiteracy annoying in itself, it's more so people who are afraid to think for themselves, and rely on others to do that for them, that I absolutely cannot stand. It's like some people don't even bother to read what's in front of them and guess what they should do next, or even look where they're typing! One of our clients at my work has an employee that doesn't even understand how a spreadsheet works, and thinks that by entering data all over the place, somehow we will be able to import it into a database for him, regardless of its format. But... this guy, who's probably twice my age, must have filled out tens if not hundreds of paper forms by now, right? Does he write his full name for his social security number!? I just don't understand these people. How does he do his job at all if he can't analyze simple patterns and has to be trained for every little thing, save for breathing?

[RabbitWho]

Because why should everyone care about computers so much? Why does everyone need to develop good IT skills? If you can type a document, browse the internet, and listen to music what more should most people be concerned with?

Neither the less perhaps elitism was too strong of a word in place of assuming your own perception on others.

Yeah but say that's all you can do, you buy a laptop, two years later you're out of warranty so you can't call technical support and it refuses to boot up. You throw it in the bin and cry because it cost you 500 euro and only lasted 2 years. If you know a little bit you at least know where to get help. If you know a bit more you can diagnose the problem. And if know a bit more again maybe you can actually fix it.

Or in the case of my mom she buys a HP Pavillion 6000 in good faith, and if it wasn't for my cousin who is very interested in computers and researching them quite often we would never have realised that the nVidia graphics card she has in it is... faulty to say the least.. basically it melts when the computer overheats. My aunt had the same laptop and it died because of this. The shop said it was out of warrenty and refused to fix it without her paying 300 euro. A letter was written to them explaining that HP had awknowlaged that the product was faulty and that the shop had knowingly sold her faulty goods, and quoted some consumer rights laws.
The shop gave her a free laptop.
If there hadn't been someone around with a bit of knowlage she'd have had to shell out loads of money.
Now my mom has the same laptop with the same faulty graphics card and she can't figure out the bios update (it just keeps the fan on all the time) and I'm a few thousand miles away and can't help her.

This is just one of a hundred millions of reasons why it helps to know a little bit about your computer, for your own sake. I would love to know more, I'm working on it.

Also if you spend 500 euro on something it would be nice to use it to it's full potential. I would like to be able to, but I can't yet!


*shrug*... People learn what matters to them. Always have, always will. I used to look down on the computer illiterate, until I grew up and stepped out of my small world, anyway. I don't find computer illiteracy annoying in itself, it's more so people who are afraid to think for themselves, and rely on others to do that for them, that I absolutely cannot stand. It's like some people don't even bother to read what's in front of them and guess what they should do next, or even look where they're typing! One of our clients at my work has an employee that doesn't even understand how a spreadsheet works, and thinks that by entering data all over the place, somehow we will be able to import it into a database for him, regardless of its format. But... this guy, who's probably twice my age, must have filled out tens if not hundreds of paper forms by now, right? Does he write his full name for his social security number!? I just don't understand these people. How does he do his job at all if he can't analyze simple patterns and has to be trained for every little thing, save for breathing?

Some old dogs can't be taught new tricks. Some people just take a little longer to learn.. I know someone who took a few days to figure out how to minimise and maximise, even after being shown and having it explained.
I hope I don't look down on anyone... except racists and xenophobes etc. .. of course!

[nubimax]

Computers have come a long way I can remember when Novak was all the talk there was of computers. now I would like to tell you that I am a young 70 put the brown stains in my gray matter would tell you I lied. there is a big difference in todays computers and what we had when I was young (it was called an adding machine) and was not run by electricity but by pulling the handle. In todays world nearly every thing is run by or uses computers. I find using them the hardest part. For me building a computer is the easy part. In this day in age the more you know about computers and the way computers work the better off you will be, learn as many OS as you can.
By the way my first was punching holes in cardboard then the machine sorted the pices of cardboard. You have come a long way baby.
M http://ubuntuforums.org/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

[nubimax]

Computers have come a long way I can remember when Novak was all the talk there was of computers. now I would like to tell you that I am a young 70 put the brown stains in my gray matter would tell you I lied. there is a big difference in todays computers and what we had when I was young (it was called an adding machine) and was not run by electricity but by pulling the handle. In todays world nearly every thing is run by or uses computers. I find using them the hardest part. For me building a computer is the easy part. In this day in age the more you know about computers and the way computers work the better off you will be, learn as many OS as you can.
By the way my first was punching holes in cardboard then the machine sorted the pices of cardboard. You have come a long way baby.
M

[jrothwell97]

I don't have a problem with computer illiteracy. I do have a problem with people who can't be bothered to a) RTFM, or b) actually use their intuition.

[Katalog]

But the object is get the problems solved and move on.

How you do it and who does it doesn't really matter to a good manager as long as it gets done with the minimum downtime and cost.

And with that being said, if your toolkit is more diverse then the likelihood of the employee assessing the most efficient solution is increased, resulting in the minimum of downtime and cost which you are referring to. Would that not be a logical conclusion? More knowledge is never a bad thing, and when you expand your technical skills you generally tend to improve your value as an employee and potential for advancement. People who aren't inclined to broaden their knowledge and experience and do just enough "to get by" either a) don't last very long or b) stagnate in the same position for years on end in my line of work.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

I think computer illiteracy is a problem. The problem isn't really the people who are clueless, though. I'm clueless about car engines and kung fu, but that doesn't make me an unforgivably lost individual.

The real problem comes from how the computer industry thrives on misinformed users. Users who don't know about choices, who think their computer is Microsoft Office, that their monitor is their computer, their computer is the "hard drive" and that all of these things "age" (as in slow down arbitrarily on a month to month basis). Even the more aware users end up thinking that they need complex programs such as Microsoft Office for simple tasks like writing letters, or that one MUST buy it and Norton Antivirus when their 60 day trials expire. With that kind of misinformation, the result is disproportionately high cash flow as people replace things for no good reason and continue to flock around a few rather enormous products.

There are two ways to fix this:

A: Establish an atmosphere in the computer software and hardware industries where those involved are committed to being truthful and helpful, to never misleading their customers and avoiding waste at all costs. (Stop perpetuating the myth that computer hardware "slows down" like a life form and that the software is irrevocably attached to it to the point that it's better to create a new wad of metal and throw the old one in the landfill than it is to replace the software).

B: Inform people so that they are not taken advantage of by the aforementioned industry, which should, conveniently, lead back in to A.

[pwnst*r]

I guarantee you there will come a time when that is like saying "Not everybody needs to learn to read and write".

those sort of IT skills would be the equivalent of Advanced Literature. again, not everyone needs them.

[Johnsie]

Situation:

-Computer has no hard disk
-Computer has no clips to hold a new hard
-Employer gives you no software licences


And the boss wants you to get the machine working with Windows and Email (Outlook).

That is annoying.

[longtom]

Situation:

-Computer has no hard disk
-Computer has no clips to hold a new hard
-Employer gives you no software licences


And the boss wants you to get the machine working with Windows and Email (Outlook).

That is annoying.

I feel for you. Between the devil and the deep blue sea....

[gn2]

I'm sure others here have similar views so I'm probably just preaching to the choir, but jesus it annoys me how computer-illiterate some people are.

So what are you doing about fixing it?
No point moaning about ignorance if you're not prepared to teach.

[Johnsie]

The annoying thing is... I have the ability to do this, but I'm not prepared to compromise my ethics by installing hooky software just to keep the boss happy. Because they are not literate in computing they think I am somehow not capable at my job.

If my job is piracy then I resign lol.

[longtom]

The annoying thing is... I have the ability to do this, but I'm not prepared to compromise my ethics by installing hooky software just to keep the boss happy. Because they are not literate in computing they think I am somehow not capable at my job.

If my job is piracy then I resign lol.

That is the problem. If you have computer illiterate exec management, they expect you to just put everything on for free. That's how whatever buddy has done it for his wife at home...

So yes, out of ignorance they expect it people to pirate software. That is a very dangerous situation. And some people can just not through their jobs away either.... knifes edge...

[Grenage]

I personally find it odd that so many people think computers matter that much. Sure it's my bread and butter, but when I have children I will be focusing on maths, logic and a second language.

When it comes to computers, there is a lot of sense in this thread. It's better to start learning the logic and fundamentals that aren't endemic to a particular piece of software. That proprietary stuff can be picked up in a matter of days or weeks.

[Deamos]

You would be surprised. Many kids today know what Linux is and may have used it. My nephew has, on many occasions, asked me questions about Ubuntu and how he could go about using it.

That being said, I am sure a great portion have no idea about computers at all, and have only a slightly better grasp than their parents.

[stwschool]

So what are you doing about fixing it?
No point moaning about ignorance if you're not prepared to teach.
I can only assume you've not read the thread then. I'm a teacher, and I'm working on it!

[gn2]

I can only assume you've not read the thread then. I'm a teacher, and I'm working on it!

Correct, and good. :)

[alienclone]

It's funny you should use that analogy. I have that quote framed and hung on the wall behind my desk, only it's slightly different and says:

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail"

It's there to remind me, as a manager, that I don't always have to use harsh discipline to deal with employee issues, but more relevant to this thread, also to remind the people that work for me that flexibility and diversity is the key to tackling problems. It seems more often than not that the younger the employee is the more difficult it is for me to ingrain that ethos of expanding your toolkit so that you have the ability to weigh several different solutions to solving a single problem.


what was used to hang that on the wall? hopefully not a hammer!

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Here's what these people need:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/tech_support_cheat_sheet.png (http://xkcd.com/627/)
Alt-text: 'Hey Megan, it's your father. How do I print out a flowchart?'



And this lesson is always a helpful resource: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZBTdOp9LwM

[JillSwift]

Here's what these people need:

Alt-text: 'Hey Megan, it's your father. How do I print out a flowchart?'
Hehehe I thought the same thing when I saw that earlier. I keep telling people that the user interfaces really are designed to be intuitive, with varying levels of success, so relax and stop acting like computer use is a complicated science. :)

[richg]

That is a way of life for well over fifty percent of PC users. That is why viruses and malware, identify theft is so rampent. Many, many PC users even in businesses are illiterate and have the same issues. Drives I.T. people nuts. My stepson was a I.T type for some years and saw that many even in businesses did not really want to learn proper use of software. They want just knowledge enough to "get by" or they want to be "led by the hand".

Rich

[Katalog]

It's funny you should use that analogy. I have that quote framed and hung on the wall behind my desk, only it's slightly different and says:

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail"

It's there to remind me, as a manager, that I don't always have to use harsh discipline to deal with employee issues, but more relevant to this thread, also to remind the people that work for me that flexibility and diversity is the key to tackling problems. It seems more often than not that the younger the employee is the more difficult it is for me to ingrain that ethos of expanding your toolkit so that you have the ability to weigh several different solutions to solving a single problem.


what was used to hang that on the wall? hopefully not a hammer!

A fire axe, actually (j/k). ;) But I did have some old school managers back in the day that believed in dropping the hammer for every little infraction, regardless of how small. In a way, I have to thank them because it made me resolve to use more discretion (let the punishment fit the crime, so to speak) and not be that way when it came my turn to sit where they were. It's simply not a black and white world, IMO, and there is a fine balance that needs to be maintained between keeping order and maintaining morale. Unhappy employees are almost as bad or worse than incompetent ones. Unhappiness and dissatisfaction in the workplace often extends itself outside the workplace to permeate the home and family life as well, which ultimately leads to more problems, which I definitely don't need more of.

OK, way past time to step off the soapbox. G'night all.

[Firestem4]

it can get very annoying when people who regularily use a computer do not know some of the very basics about computing. I have Literally seen a person who did not know how to turn a computer on.

I try not to be hypocritical because I am an advanced user and things that are trivial to me are like another language to basic users. The same can be said for myself when it comes to many other things. though I personally try to obtain a good foundation of knowledge for anythign I do, but back on point...

I don't complain though because in all honesty without computer illteracy I wouldn't have a job =)

[Firestem4]

Here's what these people need:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/tech_support_cheat_sheet.png (http://xkcd.com/627/)
Alt-text: 'Hey Megan, it's your father. How do I print out a flowchart?'



And this lesson is always a helpful resource: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZBTdOp9LwM

I am so printing that out and hanging it next to my desk!!!:lolflag:

[tubasoldier]

Computer illiteracy is only annoying if the user has a bad attitude about it.

Users who see a problem but don't understand isn't the big issues. It is users who, no matter their gullibility, want to at least try to understand why computers do things. Even though they may never grasp the concept.

It is the users who don't know much about computing but know one specific program and only that program that cause me issues. The attitude of fix-it-so-I-can-do-the-only-thing-I-know-how is mind boggling.

On a funny note, I found out last week that my mother-in-law has been using her Yahoo mail to type up letters or any various things she wants to print, and then printing them out of her mail. I gently introduced her to OpenOffice.

[Firestem4]

On a funny note, I found out last week that my mother-in-law has been using her Yahoo mail to type up letters or any various things she wants to print, and then printing them out of her mail. I gently introduced her to OpenOffice.

Lol. I have to admit that made me laugh a bit. Though I have a lot of computer annoyances, I haven't ever encountered something like that before...Nothing comes to mind anyways.


Computer illiteracy is only annoying if the user has a bad attitude about it.

Users who see a problem but don't understand isn't the big issues. It is users who, no matter their gullibility, want to at least try to understand why computers do things. Even though they may never grasp the concept.

It is the users who don't know much about computing but know one specific program and only that program that cause me issues. The attitude of fix-it-so-I-can-do-the-only-thing-I-know-how is mind boggling.


This brings to mind one of my coworkers. Every time I need to do some work on his computer he never actually lets me sit down and 'do it'...I end up sitting on his desk pointing out what to do. It is frustrating and demeaning to me. Not only does it take me 4 times longer to accomplish what I could have done really quickly (which in turns means he has more time to work),I have to deal with the arrogance because he believes he knows what he's doing. Arg!!!

[the8thstar]

Yeah, I've been on the Internet since 1984 with a CP/M machine and a 300-Baud acoustic coupler. I don't look back on that with any fondness.

Why?

It's a total waste of time.

They need to learn how to produce the maximum amount of productive outcomes -- finished work -- per minute spent on process.

All that stuff is mere process, a dead end. Futzing around.

They need to learn how to do real work with the dominant OS with the minimum amount of time wasted on learning curve.

It kills geeks to hear this, but it's real-world common sense.

I undestrand your reasoning, but children are not working adults. They don't HAVE to be productive. They have to be children.

[5zerocool]

Most people only learn what they need to know to do their job. Beyond that, they don't care, as long as they get a paycheck. They are not curious beyond their own job. They complain alot about things they could easily change. They do not regularly practice exploring possibilities, or dare to think about the "grey area" and doing things differently. Its quite normal to say "oh, I don't even know how to to turn on a computer". Illiteracy is annoying, but its part of what makes us rockstars.:KS

[Swagman]

Childrens minds are like vacuums.. Constantly sucking in information.

Build the foundation on crap knowledge and your'll get crap results.

[Johnsie]

Well, if everyone was IT literate I wonder if I would still have my job. I'm primarily a programmer at my company, but I seem to spend alot of time baby feeding people.

[Bearded-flower]

Im hardly a cumputer super genius, the first time i touched a PC was when i was 10, i got my first PC at 15 and even then i only knew the basics, but i was talkin to a mate of mine and he told me about this thing called linux.
so i tried that, and thats when i started learning, i am now learning python, and im a pretty advanced user (compared to my friends (about 3 months ago i installed arch)

[wojmur]

Every time I need to do some work on his computer he never actually lets me sit down and 'do it'...I end up sitting on his desk pointing out what to do. It is frustrating and demeaning to me. Not only does it take me 4 times longer to accomplish what I could have done really quickly (which in turns means he has more time to work),I have to deal with the arrogance because he believes he knows what he's doing. Arg!!!
Perhaps, this way he is trying to attain a higher level of computer literacy, by doing? Isn't he where you were back then, when you were where he is now? It seems you are annoyed by both, computer illiteracy and by attempts to become more computer literate ...

[Firestem4]

Perhaps, this way he is trying to attain a higher level of computer literacy, by doing? Isn't he where you were back then, when you were where he is now? It seems you are annoyed by both, computer illiteracy and by attempts to become more computer literate ...

Sadly theres not a chance this is true. He is the Director of Sales for my company. He thinks he walks on water and his farts dont stink.

Edit: I taught myself almost everything I know about computers so I can't say I was ever in his position either.

[wojmur]

He thinks he walks on water and his farts dont stink.
:lolflag:

[papangul]

For my part I'm trying to expose the kids ..... I'm hoping that by the end of it all they'll be super-geniuses compared to everyone else out there :)
http://www.imagechicken.com/uploads/1251288738006435500.gif (http://www.imagechicken.com)

[fela]

I think it all depends on who you are. I'm a self confessed computer geek, 13 years old and know the linux CLI back to front, I can adapt to any different user interface I see (except DOS of course ;)), but yeah that's just me. There's also my sister who doesn't know to turn a computer on!

I definitely agree with you about being exposed to many different platforms - the typical reason people say linux isn't 'user friendly' is because it's not familiar, and for them familiar means windows, ie windows means user friendly. I've grown up using mac OS until three years ago when I made the switch to Linux (when I got my own computer). Then 1 year ago I decided to try out windows - I'd never used it natively before, and only used win95 in a PPC emulator :P). It seems like I'm born to use computers though, I haven't had any trouble learning either platform. For me though, I have to say that the Linux command line has been the most 'user friendly' interface - things such as vim (command line editor): d to delete, p to paste back. i to insert. q to quit. You get the idea. Also, there aren't any menus in the CLI - I can't stand menus as they're so time consuming. I still haven't learned how to use GNU screen though...that's on my TODO list for sure!

But yeah it does really really wind me up when I see someone ask 'how to you double click?', or 'how to check my mail on linux', or 'WHERES MY LINUX WINAMP, YEAH ITS CALLED WINAMP BUT SO WHAT I NEED WINAMP' etc. you get the idea! :lolflag:

[Viva]

It is about as annoying as my medical/legal illeteracy(does that make any sense?).

[Nevon]

(does that make any sense?).
Nope. Because you're not asking friends and family to examine your prostate. Instead, you go see a doctor that you have paid to do what they do (through taxes or otherwise).

[JillSwift]

Nope. Because you're not asking friends and family to examine your prostate. Instead, you go see a doctor that you have paid to do what they do (through taxes or otherwise).
Eh... I'm not so sure.

People do go to friends and family for medical advice. Though they have no reasonable expectation of receiving diagnoses and treatment, they do have reasonable expectation of being told to go see a doctor, and perhaps which doctor - but the advice isn't limited to that.

Medical illiteracy is annoying when it results in those friends and family recommending utterly baseless pseudo-medicine like Homeopathy or herbal remedies. Though they may not be acting as caregivers, they are giving advice that is medically illiterate, and even potentially dangerous should it be used in place of proper medical attention for a serious problem.

[Viva]

Nope. Because you're not asking friends and family to examine your prostate. Instead, you go see a doctor that you have paid to do what they do (through taxes or otherwise).

In either case, you go to a person more knowledgeable than you for advice, no?

[Nevon]

In either case, you go to a person more knowledgeable than you for advice, no?

Yes, but that person is being rewarded for it somehow. Many times the local go-to-guy when it comes to computers gets nothing - yet people expect him or her to always be there. That's the thing that bothers me the most. I would happily show the same person how to install an anti-virus program 15 times a week, if I was getting paid to do it. But when I'm getting jack, I expect the person to learn whatever it is I'm helping them with after I've showed them one or more times. If they don't want to, then don't expect me to help them time and time again.

[fela]

Yes, but that person is being rewarded for it somehow. Many times the local go-to-guy when it comes to computers gets nothing - yet people expect him or her to always be there. That's the thing that bothers me the most. I would happily show the same person how to install an anti-virus program 15 times a week, if I was getting paid to do it. But when I'm getting jack, I expect the person to learn whatever it is I'm helping them with after I've showed them one or more times. If they don't want to, then don't expect me to help them time and time again.

I can SO totally relate to all that you just said.

[Katalog]

Yes, but that person is being rewarded for it somehow. Many times the local go-to-guy when it comes to computers gets nothing - yet people expect him or her to always be there. That's the thing that bothers me the most. I would happily show the same person how to install an anti-virus program 15 times a week, if I was getting paid to do it. But when I'm getting jack, I expect the person to learn whatever it is I'm helping them with after I've showed them one or more times. If they don't want to, then don't expect me to help them time and time again.


I can SO totally relate to all that you just said.

+1. I used to build computers for people as a favor. All they had to do was purchase the parts and I'd assemble it and get it up and running for them, install antivirus, talk to them about best practices concerning security, etc. I'd accept an expensive bottle of booze or something like that once in a while if it was offered, but I never charged them a cent. That all came to a screeching halt when a few them started displaying absolutely no compunction about calling me up on a Sunday, or on vacation and expecting me to come over and revive a PC that had been rendered near useless, almost always due to either a) gross neglect or b) allowing their teenage kids to install pieces of software that were magnets for every piece of malware in existence. After that it was, to quote Alice Cooper, "No more Mr. Nice Guy".

[Firestem4]

Yes, but that person is being rewarded for it somehow. Many times the local go-to-guy when it comes to computers gets nothing - yet people expect him or her to always be there. That's the thing that bothers me the most. I would happily show the same person how to install an anti-virus program 15 times a week, if I was getting paid to do it. But when I'm getting jack, I expect the person to learn whatever it is I'm helping them with after I've showed them one or more times. If they don't want to, then don't expect me to help them time and time again.

You said it man. I have no problem helping my friends out with their computers. They're my friends and I enjoy what I do. But if I have to fix the same problem constantly (and rarely the cause has ever changed) then I would expect them to take care of it at some point. More advanced issues I would give them a break but a trivial thing like installing a program (thank god my friends can do that at least), I wouldn't let it stand.

Also i'm usually happy to provide my services to my friends for free because they give me dinner:lolflag:

[running_rabbit07]

Plus, education should be broad (at school level at least). As such they don't need to know the structure of a plant cell, after all how many employers really give a monkeys if they know that? The point is we teach them that stuff so that they have enough knowledge to make choices at 16 about their further education and career options.

What if the kids want to be biologists or doctors instead of ITs and programmers?

Do you really teach 5th graders and expect them all to be computer geeks? The reason I ask is that in one of your first posts you mentioned teaching grade 5 kids and I wanted to make sure we were on the same sheet of music.

While computers play a part in our lives, it's not that big of a part. I realize it is what you teach so it feels more important, but to most it is not.

[SacValleyDweller]

Here's my angle on this:

My age: 22

My computer literacy timeline:

13 years ago, give me a computer that had a game on it, open the game for me, and let me go to town.

Literacy percentage (near as I can figure): 2

5 years ago, by some definitions in this thread, I was still computer illiterate. Sure, I could use Paint, Email, IE, Word, and poke around in the file system to find something, but any hicup in these programs or being asked to do anything different that what I had been doing, game over. My chosen major at the time, a BS in Agriculture, would surely have me being that idiot that calls upon folks like you when my computer don't work.

Literacy percentage: 5

3 years ago: Ag major abandoned, and first lesson in computer literacy: the careers in Multimedia class I'm taking uses Macs. I learn to do the same stuff as before on Mac.

Literacy percentage: 7

Somewhere along the way, I read Wikipedia's Ubuntu article.

A year ago, I throw myself headlong into a lions mouth; I take an intro to computer science class, meet a guy who is an avid Ubuntu user, decide to install Ubuntu on my new laptop, and decide to major in the realm of the UberGeek, Computer Science, a subject that I know nothing about. Took C++ the following semester.

Literacy percentage: 15

So far it's been a little scary, but boy am I glad Im taking this road, I'll be so far ahead of the other schmucks out there, even if I decide, after I get the degree, to not fix computers or write code for a living.

[KiwiNZ]

Please keep the personal stuff out of the thread.

[stwschool]

Please keep the personal stuff out of the thread.
Must say this is a tad bizarre, that you can leave in "If you were a teacher at my daughter's school, I would do everything possible to keep her out of you class." from running_rabbit, which I would classify as highly personal, and then delete my post responding to that, which was frankly not personally insulting. I'd like some clarification from the mods as this is not the first exceedingly bizarre piece of modding I've seen here recently.

[running_rabbit07]

Must say this is a tad bizarre, that you can leave in "If you were a teacher at my daughter's school, I would do everything possible to keep her out of you class." from running_rabbit, which I would classify as highly personal, and then delete my post responding to that, which was frankly not personally insulting. I'd like some clarification from the mods as this is not the first exceedingly bizarre piece of modding I've seen here recently.

I removed that from my post.

If you don't mind me asking. Do you teach 5th graders?

I understand computers are a bit of everyday life, but I also believe that is why we all have a smart friend or IT shop we can go to when the bits hit the fan.

I fell the same with computer literacy as automotive work. I can tear down and put my 07 Rabbit back together if I wanted.

If your school board agrees with your syllabus then I guess it is alright.

[bboston7]

I know what you mean. Being in high school, I see a LOT of people who have no idea how computers work and many of them think the monitor is the computer. Even the IT people at the school have no idea what is going on. We have a bunch of thin clients connected to four main servers and the security is a JOKE.

In this day and age, you have to want to learn about computers. I've been interested since a very young age and am very knowledgeable. It disgusts me that the people who get paid to keep the school network secure don't know what they're doing. :(

[running_rabbit07]

In this day and age, you have to want to learn about computers.

I disagree. If it is your passion, great.

I know people that don't own a computer and don't need one.

I know people that destroy system after system because they don't keep anti-virus up to date. That is why we have professional ITs. If you are a friend having a problem, I'll help for free. If I don't know you, then you will make it worth my while.

[stwschool]

I removed that from my post.

If you don't mind me asking. Do you teach 5th graders?

I understand computers are a bit of everyday life, but I also believe that is why we all have a smart friend or IT shop we can go to when the bits hit the fan.

I fell the same with computer literacy as automotive work. I can tear down and put my 07 Rabbit back together if I wanted.

If your school board agrees with your syllabus then I guess it is alright.
I teach grades 4-12, so obviously different stuff for different levels (as I explained in my inexplicably deleted post). I believe that in whatever subject you are teaching, you should give a wide range of experiences, and further you should take it to the highest level that the students are capable of.

My kids have surprised me, in that they seem to be able to cope with some pretty remarkable things. I don't ask grade 4 to program in C, or get them to count in hexadecimal, but I do get them doing things that are kinda advanced but wrapped in something fun, so a photoshop task to turn each other into monsters (removing their eyes, nostrils and mouths, changing their skin to green, giving them huge ears, that kind of thing).

The classes for my older students push a more advanced agenda and one of the reasons is that really IT is the only way kids can make any money here. Wages in Thailand are poor (relative to the west, though you can buy a lot with very little money). If I can teach these kids to do jobs that they can do remotely then I'm offering them the opportunity to earn western wages with thai living costs, which means they'll do very nicely. It's particularly relevant as some of our half-Thai/half-Foreign kids will find it very difficult here for a variety of reasons which are a bit long-winded for this forum.

Basically, I am tailoring their education to provide the best opportunities that I think I can create for them, and to give them a broad and deep education such that they can solve problems in computing and in other fields, with the removal of fear making computing fun. Well, that's the objective anyway. The success or otherwise of this is for others (the kids, their parents, etc) to decide.

[running_rabbit07]

I teach grades 4-12, so obviously different stuff for different levels (as I explained in my inexplicably deleted post). I believe that in whatever subject you are teaching, you should give a wide range of experiences, and further you should take it to the highest level that the students are capable of.

My kids have surprised me, in that they seem to be able to cope with some pretty remarkable things. I don't ask grade 4 to program in C, or get them to count in hexadecimal, but I do get them doing things that are kinda advanced but wrapped in something fun, so a photoshop task to turn each other into monsters (removing their eyes, nostrils and mouths, changing their skin to green, giving them huge ears, that kind of thing).

The classes for my older students push a more advanced agenda and one of the reasons is that really IT is the only way kids can make any money here. Wages in Thailand are poor (relative to the west, though you can buy a lot with very little money). If I can teach these kids to do jobs that they can do remotely then I'm offering them the opportunity to earn western wages with thai living costs, which means they'll do very nicely. It's particularly relevant as some of our half-Thai/half-Foreign kids will find it very difficult here for a variety of reasons which are a bit long-winded for this forum.

Basically, I am tailoring their education to provide the best opportunities that I think I can create for them, and to give them a broad and deep education such that they can solve problems in computing and in other fields, with the removal of fear making computing fun. Well, that's the objective anyway. The success or otherwise of this is for others (the kids, their parents, etc) to decide.

I have a much better understanding where you are coming from now. I was under the impression that you were trying to teach all that stuff to a 5th grader.

[stwschool]

I have a much better understanding where you are coming from now. I was under the impression that you were trying to teach all that stuff to a 5th grader.
I probably should have made that clearer. Btw you'd be surprised at what a 5th grader can pick up. Even though most of these guys have English as a 2nd language they can cope with stuff like KTurtle, and G6 just had their first intro to (VERY) basic PHP. I don't do it all the time, but for a couple of one-off lessons every year it's nice to introduce them to something new and weird, as it usually results in one or two of them asking for some extra stuff on the subject later. Similarly a lesson on packet sniffing went down a storm with the older kids, and I'm planning one on cracking WPA encryption next week. It's good to break up the normal stuff that schools always cover with something extra. We still cover what they need for GCSE etc but I like the extras, it keeps me fresh and keeps it fun for them.

[fela]

Must say this is a tad bizarre, that you can leave in "If you were a teacher at my daughter's school, I would do everything possible to keep her out of you class." from running_rabbit, which I would classify as highly personal, and then delete my post responding to that, which was frankly not personally insulting. I'd like some clarification from the mods as this is not the first exceedingly bizarre piece of modding I've seen here recently.

I know, the mods must be crazy! :lol:

[KiwiNZ]

Closed for review