Why don't we have... Jump Lists?

[hoppipolla]

These are quite fancy, little right-click menus that allow you to pass specific instructions to the program as it restores (or at least that's my understanding!).

Could we code this in too? They could be coded into a program and apply to GUIs that support them, KDE I'm sure would implement this (and may be already) with reasonable speed if apps showed initiative. They could even be implemented on the GUIs side, particularly for very popular applications.

What do you think?

Hoppi!


Here are some images of this feature from Windows 7:


http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/Dd378460.JumpList(en-us,VS.85).png


http://smallbizwindows.com/Windows_7/images/Windows%20Media%20Player%20JumpList.png


To be fair I think much of this works in all OSs from System Tray icons, but it would be nice to see some functionality from minimized windows too.

[Viva]

+1. I always wanted this feature too.

[Bachstelze]

http://jamie-online.com/random-jamz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/facepalm.jpg

Will you make a thread for every feature in Windows 7?

[RiceMonster]

Why didn't you make this part of the other thread?

[lisati]

Will you make a thread for every feature in Windows 7?

+1!!!!!!!

Ubuntu already has right-click menus! BIG sigh!

[Viva]

Actually, this is possible using AWN applets.

[LowSky]

Why do you need this, Ubuntu already has something similar.
go to Place > Recent Documents, and all you recently opend documents are right there

http://images.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=tbn&q=http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20080708/ubuntu.places2.jpg&usg=AFQjCNElgd9lrF5-Fu_wxQzQlk4ykxKUbQ

[RiceMonster]

Why do you need this, Ubuntu already has something similar.
go to Place > Recent Documents, and all you recently opend documents are right there

*image*

That's not really the same thing.

[hoppipolla]

http://jamie-online.com/random-jamz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/facepalm.jpg

Will you make a thread for every feature in Windows 7?

I thought it would be a good idea to cover key, significant features that other OSs have that we don't, to further constructive debate and progress on those issues ^_^

Attack me if you want, but unless we look at these things constructively we will find it harder to make progress.

[LowSky]

That's not really the same thing.
Didn't see the second picture, as it was loading the first one twice... for whatever reason

[RiceMonster]

I thought it would be a good idea to cover key, significant features that other OSs have that we don't, to further constructive debate and progress on those issues ^_^

Attack me if you want, but unless we look at these things constructively we will find it harder to make progress.

The point was, you don't need a seperate thread for each feature. Cover them in one thread.

Furthermore, us talking about this on a forum will not make any progress regardless.

[LowSky]

I thought it would be a good idea to cover key, significant features that other OSs have that we don't, to further constructive debate and progress on those issues ^_^

Attack me if you want, but unless we look at these things constructively we will find it harder to make progress.

how is this significant? please elaborate. just because windows has a feature Ubuntu needs it too? At what point is copying another OS progress. We need to move in other directions but toward similar goals, like making a operating system that people like and enjoy.

[hoppipolla]

how is this significant? please elaborate. just because windows has a feature Ubuntu needs it too? At what point is copying another OS progress. We need to move in other directions but toward similar goals, like making a operating system that people like and enjoy.

*facepalm* ._. lol


EDIT -- Sorry actually that was a bit rude, hehe. What I really mean to say is that sometimes features other OSs have really are good, and unless we keep up and at least CONSIDER implementing them we may end up falling behind.

[hoppipolla]

The point was, you don't need a seperate thread for each feature. Cover them in one thread.

Furthermore, us talking about this on a forum will not make any progress regardless.

Of course it will, coders come on here too... I dunno I thought this would be a really constructive way to discuss key features. Maybe I should be taking this to the KDE forum ._.

[hessiess]

Who cares, try using a Tiling wm and switch to any application with only one or two key presses;).

[hyperdude111]

This is ridiculous, what next "Why don't we have Microsoft Windows"

These are two different Operating systems.

Windows has jump lists, aero, Windows Media Player, Windows Genuine Advantage.
Linux has multiple Desktop environments, enhanced security, compiz, freedom.

[Regenweald]

Maybe I should be taking this to the KDE forum ._.

Maybe you should. no one seems to share your amazing vision and while you are at it, Why not start this thread in a windows forum:
'Why don't we have.....a working permissions hierarchy that does not allow malicious code to install itself at any time'

[hanzomon4]

Why is everyone so pissed.. this is what the cafe is for

[hoppipolla]

This is ridiculous, what next "Why don't we have Microsoft Windows"

These are two different Operating systems.

Windows has jump lists, aero, Windows Media Player, Windows Genuine Advantage.
Linux has multiple Desktop environments, enhanced security, compiz, freedom.

But why don't we look at the nicest features Windows and Mac OS has, and get more of them? We are doing it a fair amount already. It helps us to remain competitive, and there is a higher chance people will choose to use an OS that has them. Often, they are not even shockingly difficult to implement.

[Gorgoth]

http://jamie-online.com/random-jamz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/facepalm.jpg

Will you make a thread for every feature in Windows 7?

But if he did that... he'd be part of the finest crew in the history of Starfleet!
</sarcasm>

[quazi]

I agree that one thread would probably have covered both topics. However, responses like

Maybe you should. no one seems to share your amazing vision and while you are at it, Why not start this thread in a windows forum:
'Why don't we have.....a working permissions hierarchy that does not allow malicious code to install itself at any time'
seem pretty narrow minded. Just because it's a feature on an operating system that is far from perfect doesn't mean it would be a nice feature to have.

Windows 7 doing it is not a particularly strong motivation for it being a useless feature. For gnome panel, the dock bar (http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/DockBar?content=97822) applet adds some of the functionality you've shown, but not all of it.

[Regenweald]

But why don't we look at the nicest features Windows and Mac OS has, and get more of them? We are doing it a fair amount already. It helps us to remain competitive, and there is a higher chance people will choose to use an OS that has them. Often, they are not even shockingly difficult to implement.

I guess the developers need some help prioritizing stuff. They are wasting way too much time doing stuff like implementing usb3 and display-port support in the kernel, Writing opensource graphics drivers with KMS support, Improving virtualization capabilities and file system performance among many other wasted endeavors.

We REALLY need to jump on transparent windows and jump lists. that is all the modern user needs. I must concur.

[ACMiller]

HymnTolife, your responses to both of hoppipola's posts have at best been inappropriate for a mod. I mean, isn't this what the cafe is all about, discussing whatever we want (within reason). Anyway, your responses have been pretty negative, changing the focus of this thread from a valid feature request to a bashing.

I personally don't know much about Windows 7 and think these have been pretty good ideas (lets face it, many of the good ideas in linux, windows or OS X have been inspired by the other OS's). I reckon I'd love to have the choice of both of these two features for linux (linux is about freedom to choose right?).

[WinterWeaver]

Why use Jumplists when we have Gnome-Do?? ^_^

[Regenweald]

HymnTolife, your responses to both of hoppipola's have at best been innapropriate for a mod (at worst just immature). I mean, isn't this what the cafe is all about, discussing whatever we want (within reason). Anyway, your responses have been pretty trollful, changing the focus of this thread from a valid feature request to a bashing.

I personally don't know much about Windows 7 and think these have been pretty good ideas (lets face it, many of the good ideas in linux, windows or OS X have been inspired by the other OS's). I reckon I'd love to have the choice of both of these two features for linux (linux is about freedom to choose right?).

Unlike those who get to leisurely peruse the forums, the mods have to actively read countless threads, MANY of which say the exact same thing. Rather that a recurring discussion leading to nothing of consequence why not join a mailing list, contact a dev and propose the pro's of a useful feature. Rather than the ' they have this, we should too' forum thread.

The mods are human, they have an opinion also. Why do some troll the forums waiting for a chance to stick it to a moderator? does it give some kind of cred ?

[koenn]

*facepalm* ._. lol


EDIT -- Sorry actually that was a bit rude, hehe. What I really mean to say is that sometimes features other OSs have really are good, and unless we keep up and at least CONSIDER implementing them we may end up falling behind.

I think that was a valid question, I don't see how some extra options in a menu are in anyway significant features of an operating system

And although maybe some of it may categorize as "nice to have", you, me nor anyone else around here is going to sit down and write that into gnome, kde, or wherever such code would need to go to implement it.
So I really don't see the pôint of all this "we should" and "how can we".

[hoppipolla]

Maybe you should. no one seems to share your amazing vision and while you are at it, Why not start this thread in a windows forum:
'Why don't we have.....a working permissions hierarchy that does not allow malicious code to install itself at any time'

Hehe I feel so attacked but the thing is I am REALLY sure I'm right lol

So I don't really mind xD

[Bachstelze]

Hehe I feel so attacked but the thing is I am REALLY sure I'm right lol

Oh yes you are. Thing is, if you really want to get this feature implemented in KDE, you're doing it wrong. As koenn says, you can either:

a. code it yourself, or
b. convice someone else to code it.

If you're going with a., learn some C++. If you're going with b., post on the KDE mailing lists. Contrary to what you seem to believe, developers don't visit forums. They abhor forums. Forums are a waste of their time.

[hoppipolla]

Oh yes you are. Thing is, if you really want to get this feature implemented in KDE, you're doing it wrong. As koenn says, you can either:

a. code it yourself, or
b. convice someone else to code it.

If you're going with a., learn some C++. If you're going with b., post on the KDE mailing lists. Contrary to what you seem to believe, developers don't visit forums. They abhor forums. Forums are a waste of their time.

So no developers ever visit internet forums pertaining to what they are developing? And there is no point in getting discussion flowing on a topic with relevance?


And yeah I know I was blunt in that last post too ._. It's just the reason I say I know I am right, is because so many people seem to live in the past just because that's what feels comfortable, or seem to think only about what works for THEM, not what works for everyone.

You will find that the canny companies and organizations think more progressively, and more constructively. And they adapt to changes.

[koenn]

And yeah I know I was blunt in that last post too ._. It's just the reason I say I know I am right, is because so many people seem to live in the past just because that's what feels comfortable, or seem to think only about what works for THEM, not what works for everyone.
It's quite arrogant to presume that people that don't share your admiration for a piece of eye candy , live in the past or can't handle change.
furthermore, nothing ever works for everyone.

[Bachstelze]

So no developers ever visit internet forums pertaining to what they are developing?

A day only has 24 hours.

[Chronon]

I guess the developers need some help prioritizing stuff. They are wasting way too much time doing stuff like implementing usb3 and display-port support in the kernel, Writing opensource graphics drivers with KMS support, Improving virtualization capabilities and file system performance among many other wasted endeavors.

We REALLY need to jump on transparent windows and jump lists. that is all the modern user needs. I must concur.

I think you just broke my sarcasm meter.

[lykwydchykyn]

So no developers ever visit internet forums pertaining to what they are developing? And there is no point in getting discussion flowing on a topic with relevance?


If you're talking about KDE or GNOME, do you expect those devs to join every forum for every distro that ships their code and read all the posts trolling for ideas of new stuff to implement.

Just about every major project in the FOSS world has a bugtracker that allows you to make feature requests and/or "wishlist" items. Why not use them? Why throw out a "message in a bottle" here when you have a direct line to the devs' to-do list?

http://bugs.kde.org
http://bugzilla.gnome.org
http://bugzilla.xfce.org

[hyperdude111]

I love eye candy bot we don't have to do it by copying the ideas of other operating systems. Realistically ubuntu is only an operating system for computer enthusiasts, without the huge funding available for marketing and OEM deals ubuntu is destined to stay <10%

We can however create a decent OS with innovation, our own ideas and implementations. Linux has good points and bad ones, its the same with windows and mac. Rather than steal their ideas and brand them .buntu we can create our own ideas.

Your signature proves the point

KDE 4.3 makes Windows 7 look like a mistake!
Yet you want windows 7 implemented into KDE

[lykwydchykyn]

Question about the original feature (since I can't be bothered to go through obtaining and installing Win7 again): Does it work with non-microsoft software?

[koenn]

If you're talking about KDE or GNOME, do you expect those devs to join every forum for every distro that ships their code and read all the posts trolling for ideas of new stuff to implement.
no, ubuntuforums alone will suffice. After all, Ubuntu is the only relevant distro, and ubuntuforums is where all the good ideas are anyway.

[Bachstelze]

Question about the original feature (since I can't be bothered to go through obtaining and installing Win7 again): Does it work with non-microsoft software?

I couldn't find a non-Microsoft application that supports it, but I guess it's just because the developers haven't implemented it yet. The feature is fully documented (http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Windows7Taskbar).

[red_Marvin]

I think there is a lot of you that should cut hoppipolla some slack, it were just simple suggestions or feature requests, nothing else, whereas many of the responses|attacks were worded as if it was one of those "Linux developers need to understand..." "...every user(me)..." "...for linux to EVER beat windows" which it is not.

Some of you seem to interpret "Linux is not Windows" as "Linux can only have features that are not implemented anywhere else", which is too far.

However, I agree that the multiple threads could've been incorporated into one (mods: merge?), and maybe the original post could have contained a brief description of what these so called Jump Lists are, and what makes them so special. The screenshot says "right click menu" to me, which just about every app that has a tray icon provides.

I'm a tiling wm user, so I wouldn't use this myself, but sheeesh, cool down...

[hoppipolla]

If you're talking about KDE or GNOME, do you expect those devs to join every forum for every distro that ships their code and read all the posts trolling for ideas of new stuff to implement.

Just about every major project in the FOSS world has a bugtracker that allows you to make feature requests and/or "wishlist" items. Why not use them? Why throw out a "message in a bottle" here when you have a direct line to the devs' to-do list?

http://bugs.kde.org
http://bugzilla.gnome.org
http://bugzilla.xfce.org

I only wanted to talk about it :(

[hanzomon4]

I only wanted to talk about it :(

You committed the sin of admiring a Microsoft OS. Someone should work on a list of responses one should expect.

It's pointless
Make it yrself
Linux suits my needs
you're a troll
go back to Redmond
Vista SUXS!!!
meow meow meow meow

[Chronon]

You committed the sin of admiring a Microsoft OS. Someone should work on a list of responses one should expect.

It's pointless
Make it yrself
Linux suits my needs
you're a troll
go back to Redmond
Vista SUXS!!!
meow meow meow meow

I don't think there's anything wrong with that per se. However, the trivial, thread-ending answer to the OP's question is: "Because nobody has coded it." If the intent is to encourage somebody to do so then this is simply not the right venue for that. I'm not sure what's left to discuss here.

[MikeTheC]

@ OP: Well, what about one of these instead:

http://www.electric-rain.net/Traveller/Pix/stargate.gif

[hoppipolla]

You committed the sin of admiring a Microsoft OS. Someone should work on a list of responses one should expect.

It's pointless
Make it yrself
Linux suits my needs
you're a troll
go back to Redmond
Vista SUXS!!!
meow meow meow meow

You sir, are my new hero lol

[hoppipolla]

@ OP: Well, what about one of these instead:

http://www.electric-rain.net/Traveller/Pix/stargate.gif

and man yeah you're so right lol Jumpgates on the desktop! ^_^

[geoken]

I couldn't find a non-Microsoft application that supports it, but I guess it's just because the developers haven't implemented it yet. The feature is fully documented (http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Windows7Taskbar).

I've used at least one non-MS app that uses the API's.

[geoken]

I think KDE guys were already talking about something similar to this before KDE 4 came out.

The gist of it was that they though a single icon should be able to do a lot more than just be clicked and that an icon's contextual menu should be related to the specific app and not to the icon itself. For example, when right clicking an icon for firefox I could get firefox specific options (like my most popular bookmarks or the ability to start private browsing) rather than only icon specific options (like resize icon and create shortcut).

With a successful implementation of jumplists in Win7 they may have a renewed interest in this?

[hoppipolla]

I think KDE guys were already talking about something similar to this before KDE 4 came out.

The gist of it was that they though a single icon should be able to do a lot more than just be clicked and that an icon's contextual menu should be related to the specific app and not to the icon itself. For example, when right clicking an icon for firefox I could get firefox specific options (like my most popular bookmarks or the ability to start private browsing) rather than only icon specific options (like resize icon and create shortcut).

With a successful implementation of jumplists in Win7 they may have a renewed interest in this?

That would be excellent, and knowing the KDE guys it's probably still well on the cards. It would be a fantastic feature to see I think... maybe they will include it a couple of releases down the line! :)

[Xbehave]

Because we have an uncluttered system tray!
Personally i like duplication of features (preferable in a sensibly coded way), but it does make a system harder to use.

Under windows most users i know have a system tray that is very clutterd and .'. jumplists are useful, under kde I (and i suspect most people under gome/kde/xfce/etc), have a very limited system tray and rightclicking on the icon produces the same effect as jumplists, so there is little need to implement the feature twice.

OFC you or anybody else, is welcome to implement the feature, just don't expect it to be easily accepted to upstreams that think about UI standards, currently:
taskbar=list of current tasks
system tray=easyway to access subset of actions of running programs
convincing people your way is better will be difficult.

Anyway that is why we don't have it, but as improvement is always good i hope somebody does implement, it because for me there are never too many ways to do something

[hanzomon4]

Is that the function of the system tray?

[phrostbyte]

Tomboy already has this, sort of. Put tomboy on the panel. Click on it and watch what happens.

But blatantly copying Microsoft is a stupid idea, not just a stupid idea, it might be an illegal idea.

In the USA, software patents are legal, so copying an idea even if you coded it all yourself can be illegal. I don't know how strong the prior art case can be made against this, even with Tomboy.

So one reason "why we don't have jump list", is because we don't want more Microsoft legal to come visit Ubuntu Forums and start threatening lawsuits against people using the OS. This is not beneath the company, so why encourage it?

Remember Microsoft is allowed to steal our ideas, but the other way around is very bad! :) Because they have the money and the power. This is prerequisite for spamming the USPTO with patent requests. The world is unfair like that. But we have to play with these rules, at least for now.

[lykwydchykyn]

I only wanted to talk about it :(

You appeared to have hopes that developers would be reading your post and responding with code. So, I was pointing you in the direction that you could maybe make that happen.

There has been a lot of interest lately in doing novel things with the task bar in KDE. If you search through the plasmoids at kde-look.org for the word "Task" you'll see a number of different variations of task lists, docks, etc. The idea of enabling a right-click menu to do more than window management is intriguing; maybe there's a way to send dbus signals to some common apps to do various interesting things.

I wouldn't present it as a clone request, but I can imagine some interesting possibilities there for a creative developer to explore.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

With the upcoming Zeitgeist (GNOME 3.0, hopefully), we will have the best "recent / related files" interface in existence. Siegfried (http://bloc.eurion.net/) is working on some rather awesome stuff; he's integrating GNOME Shell with Zeitgeist, some fruits of which you can witness in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyoD2v7QGCE). Scroll ahead to 1:15 for the bit that is considerably cooler than Jump Lists, but takes up a similar part of the interface.

[Xbehave]

In the USA, software patents are legal, so copying an idea even if you coded it all yourself can be illegal. I don't know how strong the prior art case can be made against this, even with Tomboy. put a gnome-panel-restricted in the restricted repo, then at least us europeans can use it!


Is that the function of the system tray? touche`
IMHO, that is the function of the system tray (as it is used today), although i prefer using applets for it (it is pretty much what applets are for) and saving the system tray for notifications (although IIRC gnome has a separate notifications tray). As you can see it's complicated! When you think you need to design a system to not confuse your users (as gnome,kde4,apple people do), you end up not adding stuff even if it may be a nice feature, ofc if you just stick everything in and let your users decide supporting becomes a nightmare!

[geoken]

With the upcoming Zeitgeist (GNOME 3.0, hopefully), we will have the best "recent / related files" interface in existence. Siegfried (http://bloc.eurion.net/) is working on some rather awesome stuff; he's integrating GNOME Shell with Zeitgeist, some fruits of which you can witness in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyoD2v7QGCE). Scroll ahead to 1:15 for the bit that is considerably cooler than Jump Lists, but takes up a similar part of the interface.

It isn't just about recent files, it's about providing an api which lets the developer add some custom actions relevant to their app. For example, a browser can give you direct access to some of your bookmarks and some other common features (like starting in privacy mode). A music player can list your top 3 playlists and top 3 radio stations so could could just start playing music right from the apps icon.

[Starlight]

just because windows has a feature Ubuntu needs it too?

Not because Windows has it, but because it's a useful feature. :)

[hoppipolla]

It isn't just about recent files, it's about providing an api which lets the developer add some custom actions relevant to their app. For example, a browser can give you direct access to some of your bookmarks and some other common features (like starting in privacy mode). A music player can list your top 3 playlists and top 3 radio stations so could could just start playing music right from the apps icon.

Yeah it's a pretty useful feature to integrate into a GUI.

I mean, to be fair, I think as we were saying before if this is something that the KDE team were talking about already, we may see it at some point in upcoming releases :)

It's just nice to know this feature hasn't been totally overlooked, and thinking logically I think the KDE project is far too ambitious not to have a go at this one!

As seems to be my tagline at the moment "Time will tell!" lol :)


Not because Windows has it, but because it's a useful feature.

Precisely :)