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sandyd
August 17th, 2009, 03:17 PM
do you think that governments should support the use of open source software in their facilities instead of making microsoft the standard OS?

cascade9
August 17th, 2009, 03:19 PM
Yes, and its a pity that ubuntu doesnt have the cash for government graft that would help that along :)

JillSwift
August 17th, 2009, 03:21 PM
I think it would be a nice way to save on tax money.

Though I am unsure how much proprietary software may be in use that locks any given department into whatever OS they use now.

sandyd
August 17th, 2009, 03:22 PM
you see, in my school board, windows is required for ALL computers. all.of.them. even the laptop that you bring in. if it isnt windows, they confiscate it and tell your parents to come pick it up while saying that your daughter is using something thats prohibited at school

Viva
August 17th, 2009, 03:24 PM
Some governments in Asia and Europe already switched to open source software. Its only a matter of time before Free Software takes over.

MikeTheC
August 17th, 2009, 03:26 PM
you see, in my school board, windows is required for ALL computers. all.of.them. even the laptop that you bring in. if it isnt windows, they confiscate it and tell your parents to come pick it up while saying that your daughter is using something thats prohibited at school

Oooh, I see this thread struck a nerve. Speaking from personal experience, are we?

Viva
August 17th, 2009, 03:27 PM
I don't agree that governments should fund open source development though.

Jago6060
August 17th, 2009, 03:27 PM
do you think that governments should support the use of open source software in their facilities instead of making microsoft the standard OS?

Absolutely. I still think the economic crash wasn't caused by faulty loans...but by George Bush's Windows Vista machine going down while he was wasting time playing WoW. Hahahaha :popcorn:

JillSwift
August 17th, 2009, 03:27 PM
you see, in my school board, windows is required for ALL computers. all.of.them. even the laptop that you bring in. if it isnt windows, they confiscate it and tell your parents to come pick it up while saying that your daughter is using something thats prohibited at school
Wait... wut?

Perhaps I am more ignorant of the protected freedoms in Canada than I might have thought... but, if you are free to own a computer, isn't your choice of operating systems part of that freedom? Isn't the confiscation of property regulated? Doesn't it seem like there should be quite the uproar that government run schools are lining Microsoft's pockets for them?

Truly, that is an outrage.

JDShu
August 17th, 2009, 03:28 PM
On an ideological level, yes. However, would it be cost effective for the United States government to switch to open source? Or would the change be too expensive compared to sticking with what they have?

sandyd
August 17th, 2009, 03:31 PM
Wait... wut?

Perhaps I am more ignorant of the protected freedoms in Canada than I might have thought... but, if you are free to own a computer, isn't your choice of operating systems part of that freedom? Isn't the confiscation of property regulated? Doesn't it seem like there should be quite the uproar that government run schools are lining Microsoft's pockets for them?

Truly, that is an outrage.

aparently, they dont know ANYTHING about linux. the only thing they know about it is that its the "hacker's os". someone seriously needs to clean up thos misconception

MikeTheC
August 17th, 2009, 03:31 PM
On an ideological level, yes. However, would it be cost effective for the United States government to switch to open source? Or would the change be too expensive compared to sticking with what they have?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love F/OSS become the defacto standard in this country. However, in this country we are facing so many other far more urgent and significant problems I can only say this is just the present Administration's effort to divert people's attention from "everything else" so-to-speak.

geekygirl
August 17th, 2009, 03:32 PM
Trouble is on the Government network that I have to use - Defence (and therefore my ONLY interaction with a Windows environment) a lot of the specialized software that was purpose written for specific functions was written purely based on Windows - that alone would be enough reason for some governments NOT to switch to open source because of the efforts, downtime, MONEY etc that would be required to re-engineer such software.

Not the sort of thing you want to have downtime for either in a full production environment with several thousand users requiring access to such software on a daily basis, and something like Wine is really not an option in this case.

And without looking at it with rose-coloured open source glasses personally its a *nice* idea but I doubt if I will ever see it in my career...

sandyd
August 17th, 2009, 03:33 PM
nvm that

Jago6060
August 17th, 2009, 03:35 PM
Wait... wut?

Perhaps I am more ignorant of the protected freedoms in Canada than I might have thought... but, if you are free to own a computer, isn't your choice of operating systems part of that freedom? Isn't the confiscation of property regulated? Doesn't it seem like there should be quite the uproar that government run schools are lining Microsoft's pockets for them?

Truly, that is an outrage.

Schools have always held a bit more "power" than they should, but they at least have justifications. You can't walk around school cursing your head off, even though its part of your right to free speech. The reason for this is they can't have such a disruption and allow disorder. In the case of the confiscated laptop, it could be a matter of ignorance in the IT department. Pretty much everyone who knows *nix, knows how powerful it is. If the IT department at the school can't handle that, they just outlaw it. Unfortunate.

JillSwift
August 17th, 2009, 03:36 PM
aparently, they dont know ANYTHING about linux. the only thing they know about it is that its the "hacker's os". someone seriously needs to clean up thos misconception
#-oIgnorance is not bliss.

Grenage
August 17th, 2009, 03:38 PM
The UK government has said in the past that it will be adopted “when it delivers best value for money”.

When it delivers best value for money is tricky, for reasons already posted.

geekygirl
August 17th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Schools have always held a bit more "power" than they should, but they at least have justifications. You can't walk around school cursing your head off, even though its part of your right to free speech. The reason for this is they can't have such a disruption and allow disorder. In the case of the confiscated laptop, it could be a matter of ignorance in the IT department. Pretty much everyone who knows *nix, knows how powerful it is. If the IT department at the school can't handle that, they just outlaw it. Unfortunate.

Definately not the case at my Uni - lecturers are busy telling us NOT to use Visual Studio and run something like Netbeans or Eclipse instead as our IDE's...

There are also plenty of signposts at the wifi hotspots telling people how to connect with a Windows or OSX laptop but 'Unfortunately at this time we do not yet support Linux based operating systems' - in otherwords not outlawed they just dont want to have to provide support - then again I would also suggest most *nix users would not need any help connecting to the campus wifi :)

sandyd
August 17th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Schools have always held a bit more "power" than they should, but they at least have justifications. You can't walk around school cursing your head off, even though its part of your right to free speech. The reason for this is they can't have such a disruption and allow disorder. In the case of the confiscated laptop, it could be a matter of ignorance in the IT department. Pretty much everyone who knows *nix, knows how powerful it is. If the IT department at the school can't handle that, they just outlaw it. Unfortunate.

i, however found a workaround. i went to kde-look and installed vistar7. never got caught after that

Jago6060
August 17th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Trouble is on the Government network that I have to use - Defence (and therefore my ONLY interaction with a Windows environment) a lot of the specialized software that was purpose written for specific functions was written purely based on Windows - that alone would be enough reason for some governments NOT to switch to open source because of the efforts, downtime, MONEY etc that would be required to re-engineer such software.

Not the sort of thing you want to have downtime for either in a full production environment with several thousand users requiring access to such software on a daily basis, and something like Wine is really not an option in this case.

And without looking at it with rose-coloured open source glasses personally its a *nice* idea but I doubt if I will ever see it in my career...

I agree. I think this is really just a time based issue. OSS will gain more and more clout as its been steadily doing over the years, and eventually, proprietary software will be the minority. Who knows how long that will take? Not me, but if I had to guess, I could see it within the next 30-50 years.

Also, in reference to programs being essentially "Windows Only", I don't really buy into that much because look at how many OSS things there are for both Windows and *nix. If it were really a huge issue to program for both, companies would only do one.

Jago6060
August 17th, 2009, 03:41 PM
i, however found a workaround. i went to kde-look and installed vistar7. never got caught after that

Haha, awesome. I've never heard of vistar7, is it basically a theme that mimics vista?

jimi_hendrix
August 17th, 2009, 03:43 PM
i dont see a reason that they should support one OS over another. With the US govt meddling in everything from health care to cars, the last thing i want is them meddling with my OS

JillSwift
August 17th, 2009, 03:43 PM
Schools have always held a bit more "power" than they should, but they at least have justifications. You can't walk around school cursing your head off, even though its part of your right to free speech.Maintaining order and safety is quite different from demanding you pay for an operating system.


The reason for this is they can't have such a disruption and allow disorder. In the case of the confiscated laptop, it could be a matter of ignorance in the IT department. Pretty much everyone who knows *nix, knows how powerful it is. If the IT department at the school can't handle that, they just outlaw it. Unfortunate.
Horeshockey. A successful hack attack can be launched from Windows as well, or from an iPhone, or a Mac, or from an Arduino device. Heck, even from a Commodore 64. Possession of Linux is nowhere near sufficient justification for the confiscation of private property.

Or, to borrow from the skateboarding folks: Linux is not a crime!

JillSwift
August 17th, 2009, 03:43 PM
i, however found a workaround. i went to kde-look and installed vistar7. never got caught after that
Ha! Well done :D

Grenage
August 17th, 2009, 03:44 PM
I find it depressing that any 'institute of learning' would confiscate a non-MS OS!

sandyd
August 17th, 2009, 03:47 PM
Haha, awesome. I've never heard of vistar7, is it basically a theme that mimics vista?

windows 7 clone thingy. i never thought it was gonna be useful for anything...but i guess i was wrong

Jago6060
August 17th, 2009, 03:49 PM
Maintaining order and safety is quite different from demanding you pay for an operating system.


Horeshockey. A successful hack attack can be launched from Windows as well, or from an iPhone, or a Mac, or from an Arduino device. Heck, even from a Commodore 64. Possession of Linux is nowhere near sufficient justification for the confiscation of private property.

Or, to borrow from the skateboarding folks: Linux is not a crime!

I definitely agree with both statements. But *nix, being open source and having more utilities than MS, will definitely make it seem "scarier" to the ignorant school IT team. I think its fairly acceptable to say that *nix is "better" at performing hack attempts because of what it can do.

sydbat
August 17th, 2009, 03:51 PM
Everyone missed the point, mostly because the OP has not been completely forthcoming. Up to grade 12, the school can do whatever they want (mostly) because the kids in those schools are almost all under 18 (some are 18 in grade 12).

As with anywhere else in the civilized world, once you are 18 you are considered an adult and the school would have no right to take anything away from you...that would be illegal.

So, the OP is NOT in a post secondary institution, but under 18 in High School or below.

Grenage
August 17th, 2009, 03:53 PM
It's still harsh!

sandyd
August 17th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Everyone missed the point, mostly because the OP has not been completely forthcoming. Up to grade 12, the school can do whatever they want (mostly) because the kids in those schools are almost all under 18 (some are 18 in grade 12).

As with anywhere else in the civilized world, once you are 18 you are considered an adult and the school would have no right to take anything away from you...that would be illegal.

So, the OP is NOT in a post secondary institution, but under 18 in High School or below.

im 17 going on 18. finishing grade 12 this year. (took extra year)

sydbat
August 17th, 2009, 04:00 PM
It's still harsh!Yes, but attempting to generate sympathy for something that is not completely honest is not right either.

Back on topic - I agree that "governments" should start moving away from the cost-inefficiencies of using closed source proprietary systems.

It has started in Canada at a few school systems (usually in smaller communities) and I feel those kids will have a huge advantage when they get older, graduate and start looking for work, because companies are already starting to move to open source. The current generation that are given this advantage will be leaps and bounds ahead of the ones whose school systems are stuck in the "it's a Windows world after all" mentality (I have noticed that this is prevalent in larger cities and companies).

JillSwift
August 17th, 2009, 04:05 PM
Everyone missed the point, mostly because the OP has not been completely forthcoming. Up to grade 12, the school can do whatever they want (mostly) because the kids in those schools are almost all under 18 (some are 18 in grade 12).

As with anywhere else in the civilized world, once you are 18 you are considered an adult and the school would have no right to take anything away from you...that would be illegal.

So, the OP is NOT in a post secondary institution, but under 18 in High School or below.
Again, perhaps it's different in Canada:

Confiscating private property over what OS is being used is illegal. The owners of the property are technically the parents, and there was no due process.

But the real problem is insisting on a paid OS. There is no justification whatever for forcing anyone to spend money when there are free (gratis) options. Government must not produce disparity.

MikeTheC
August 17th, 2009, 04:06 PM
Government must not produce disparity.
And yet, of all the things government does, it does this so amazingly well. :shock:

geekygirl
August 17th, 2009, 04:13 PM
Again, perhaps it's different in Canada:

Confiscating private property over what OS is being used is illegal. The owners of the property are technically the parents, and there was no due process.

But the real problem is insisting on a paid OS. There is no justification whatever for forcing anyone to spend money when there are free (gratis) options. Government must not produce disparity.

Remembering of course we have only heard the side of the person who has had said laptop 'confiscated'...hard to pass judgement with only one side of a story...

Trouble is unless more and more manufacturers stop selling Windows preinstalled on off the shelf systems and laptops people are indeed 'forced' into buying something they may (or in the majority of purchasers - ie Mum and Dad computer user) or may not (in the case of those of us here or elsewhere) need.

At the end of the day it comes down to dealing with the 'lowest common denominator' - in most cases that means Windows, and the 'average' Windows user - and it would be rather hard I would imagine having to then include curriculum aimed at teachers and staff at a high school level especially - and if they are anything like High Schools here, overworked, understaffed and too many kids to deal with - to include such things as Linux and what to do when students know more about computers and operating systems than you do...

I can remember at high school my old art teacher...some people are just never meant to be let loose around a computer (not that we had that many at my high school in the 80's lol)

JillSwift
August 17th, 2009, 04:16 PM
And yet, of all the things government does, it does this so amazingly well. :shock:
More's the pitty :(

JillSwift
August 17th, 2009, 04:23 PM
Remembering of course we have only heard the side of the person who has had said laptop 'confiscated'...hard to pass judgement with only one side of a story...

Trouble is unless more and more manufacturers stop selling Windows preinstalled on off the shelf systems and laptops people are indeed 'forced' into buying something they may (or in the majority of purchasers - ie Mum and Dad computer user) or may not (in the case of those of us here or elsewhere) need.

At the end of the day it comes down to dealing with the 'lowest common denominator' - in most cases that means Windows, and the 'average' Windows user - and it would be rather hard I would imagine having to then include curriculum aimed at teachers and staff at a high school level especially - and if they are anything like High Schools here, overworked, understaffed and too many kids to deal with - to include such things as Linux and what to do when students know more about computers and operating systems than you do...

I can remember at high school my old art teacher...some people are just never meant to be let loose around a computer (not that we had that many at my high school in the 80's lol)
Meh. Lowest common denominator = we rise to the level of the weakest link. Not really an acceptable outcome. It hardly takes a computer technology genius to find the common ground between OSs that would allow anyone to use thier OS of choice. Open standards abound. That is, give the students assignments and let them meet the requirements with the tools they choose. They will learn more that way, and it doesn't require any more work from faculty or staff. (In fact, given some smart working of open standards, it could easily require less work.)

Whatever the veracity of the OP's story, I stand firm that it is foolish to require the use of one tool at the expense of all others.

cptrohn
August 17th, 2009, 04:26 PM
you see, in my school board, windows is required for ALL computers. all.of.them. even the laptop that you bring in. if it isnt windows, they confiscate it and tell your parents to come pick it up while saying that your daughter is using something thats prohibited at school

Wow here almost the whole state's public schools are going to open source in a cost saving measure.

sydbat
August 17th, 2009, 04:26 PM
Meh. Lowest common denominator = we rise to the level of the weakest link. Not really an acceptable outcome. It hardly takes a computer technology genius to find the common ground between OSs that would allow anyone to use thier OS of choice. Open standards abound. That is, give the students assignments and let them meet the requirements with the tools they choose. They will learn more that way, and it doesn't require any more work from faculty or staff. (In fact, given some smart working of open standards, it could easily require less work.)

Whatever the veracity of the OP's story, I stand firm that it is foolish to require the use of one tool at the expense of all others.This I completely agree with!

geekygirl
August 17th, 2009, 04:36 PM
Whatever the veracity of the OP's story, I stand firm that it is foolish to require the use of one tool at the expense of all others.

Dont get me wrong I agree with you.

Another example is the local Uni I was attending, they even had an MS employee on site within the IT Faculty because the Uni had literally done a deal with the devil, had full MSDNAA access - students could get whatever MS product they wanted or needed - we were even allowed to write our code on whatever operating system we chose to at home...but during an exam, or when handing in assignments our code HAD (and this was emphasised at several lectures) compile on Visual Studio and nothing else or WE WOULD FAIL.

How much more one sided than that can you get? Write code and if you cannot get it to compile or work in Visual Studio and you would fail...pretty black and white where half of the schools IT Faculty was coming from then....

Money talks unfortunately...I changed Uni's after that.....