Microsoft see a threat from Canonical

[motang]

Client faces strong competition from well-established companies with differing approaches to the PC market. Competing commercial software products, including variants of Unix, are supplied by competitors such as Apple, Canonical, and Red Hat. Apple takes an integrated approach to the PC experience and has made inroads in share, particularly in the U.S. and in the consumer segment. The Linux operating system, which is also derived from Unix and is available without payment under a General Public License, has gained some acceptance, especially in emerging markets, as competitive pressures lead OEMs to reduce costs and new, lower-price PC form-factors gain adoption. Partners such as Hewlett-Packard and Intel have been actively working with alternative Linux-based operating systems.

Looks like the sleeping giant has been woken up, first they got woken up by Mozilla with Firefox and now by Canonical and Red Hat! :D

Source (http://blogs.computerworld.com/microsoft_admits_to_sec_we_fear_linux_ubuntu_and_r ed_hat?source=rss_blogs)

[spoons]

Hopefully this should encourage more competition and innovation.

[amitabhishek]

I am keeping my fingers crossed!!!!

[Dragonbite]

Will be interesting to follow.

But I won't say the sleeping giant is awaken yet, just stirring.

[Viva]

They might soon offer to port MS Office to linux in exchange for making IE the default browser on Ubuntu;)

[Ericj1186]

which is also derived from Unix and is available without payment under a General Public License, has gained some acceptance, especially in emerging markets, as competitive pressures lead OEMs to reduce costs and new, lower-price PC form-factors gain adoption. Partners such as Hewlett-Packard and Intel have been actively working with alternative Linux-based operating systems.

That is why capitalism is a good thing. Thanks to open source/free software Microsoft is realizing they can no longer charge outrageous prices for stuff that barely works. As long as there is a better alternative, be it in price or features, Microsoft will have to compete on both levels. Open Office has its faults, but I find it to be head-and-shoulders above MS Office in both price (being free) and features (extensions, constant FREE updates, a good community with support).

Really, MS should look hard at the Ubuntu method of release. As it stands, if I don't like Koala, I can hold off until April for 10.04, but with Microsoft, it's really getting harder and harder to skip distributions. If Microsoft released a small, cheap or free distribution that came with just the basics or with open source stuff, I think they'd have a solid method of fighting off the encroachment of Linux. Of course, I don't think that will ever happen.

[windows-killer]

to accomplish this Canonical needs better marketing. They need to count their users to increase user awareness. Until this happens, I dont see Canonical a big thread to M$ and Apple. The biggest thread to M$ is Google.

[Screwdriver0815]

They might soon offer to port MS Office to linux in exchange for making IE the default browser on Ubuntu;)

if they do that I would switch the distro. This is freedom - something the Microsoft guys don't know about. It's great!

Personally I think, Red Hat as well as Novell is by far a bigger threat to Microsoft than Canonical.

But maybe Canonical is something like a door opener for Red Hat and Novell because when the private consumer gets aware of Linux systems he takes this awareness to work and maybe this leads to companies switching their desktops to RHEL and SLED because Red Hat and Novell do more offerings towards big companies than Canonical who offer more solutions for smaller companies.

we all should follow this up in the future.

But I don't think that Microsoft has woken up. They still think that their proprietary model is better than GPL etc. But they will have to learn... maybe it will be hard for them...

[blur xc]

to accomplish this Canonical needs better marketing. They need to count their users to increase user awareness. Until this happens, I dont see Canonical a big thread to M$ and Apple. The biggest thread to M$ is Google.

Yup- and they are running a billboard campaign now...

Looking at hisotry's lessons, the home user is where the money is at. IBM's core focus was mainframe business computers when bill gates acquired DOS, and IBM's big mistake was leaving Bill the rights to sell his OS to the home user. We all know how that turned out.

BM

[Viva]

if they do that I would switch the distro. This is freedom - something the Microsoft guys don't know about. It's great!

Personally I think, Red Hat as well as Novell is by far a bigger threat to Microsoft than Canonical.

But maybe Canonical is something like a door opener for Red Hat and Novell because when the private consumer gets aware of Linux systems he takes this awareness to work and maybe this leads to companies switching their desktops to RHEL and SLED because Red Hat and Novell do more offerings towards big companies than Canonical who offer more solutions for smaller companies.

we all should follow this up in the future.

But I don't think that Microsoft has woken up. They still think that their proprietary model is better than GPL etc. But they will have to learn... maybe it will be hard for them...

I was only joking mate. That was how Microsoft blackmailed Apple into making IE the default browser on MAC(and got their *** whipped by the DOJ for that during the Antitrust trial). The truth is, Apple needed MS Office to survive, Canonical/Ubuntu don't.

[calrogman]

Novell is by far a bigger threat to Microsoft than Canonical.

HAHAHAHA

Oh lol

[RiceMonster]

Novell is by far a bigger threat to Microsoft than Canonical.

HAHAHAHA

Oh lol

Why is that funny?

[calrogman]

Why is that funny?

Novell sold out to MS a long time ago, over those empty patent threats. Novell is MS' linux department these days.

My local boozer is more of a threat to MS than Novell.

[Tibuda]

Why is that funny?

BoycottNovell FUD

[KiwiNZ]

If MS see Canonical , Apple etc as a threat to their desktop market they will not change their model to open source.

They have big competition in the server market and have had so for a number of years from HP ( HPUX etx) Sun , IBM to name a few. MS has not changed its model there.

What they will do is apply a lot of development resources , of which they have large amounts, to develop their products. Windows 7 is a recent example of this.

They will not change their model an I do not believe they should. Open Source and proprietary can co exist.

Should Canonical go head to head with MS , now? -NO . Canonical does not have the resources to do that and should not try .

[calrogman]

BoycottNovell FUD

s/'BoycottNovell FUD'/'Genuine opinion'/

[phrostbyte]

to accomplish this Canonical needs better marketing. They need to count their users to increase user awareness. Until this happens, I dont see Canonical a big thread to M$ and Apple. The biggest thread to M$ is Google.

I agree. Ubuntu will continue to remain relatively popular but I don't think it will unseat Windows any time soon.

I look forward to see if Google can put up a serious fight against Windows. Even for a company as big as Google it is very difficult, IBM tried with OS/2 and failed. Apple puts billions of dollars into marketing and developing Mac, and while they are quite profitable, even during the economic slump. But OS X marketshare is something like 25x less then Windows worldwide.

But at the same time I think today Microsoft is not as big and powerful as they were in ~2000. The Internet and rapid fire anti-trust lawsuits weakened them quite a bit. So where IBM failed it is possible for Google to succeed.

[Viva]

BoycottNovell FUD

No, people have seen too many of these DEALS involving microsoft that they are concerned about what is actually behind the deal and rightly so.

[Screwdriver0815]

HAHAHAHA

Oh lol

erm... did you ever hear about Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop? Suse Linux Enterprise server maybe?

Maybe you know about this small island in the south of the channel, called europe and France. There is a car manufacturer (something britain doesn't have anymore) called PSA. And they have 20000 (twentythousand) Suse Linux Enterprise Desktops.

Okay there are also lots of companies who use Ubuntu but Canonical does not have the size of Novell and Red Hat. Thats why both of them are a bigger threat to Microsoft.



Novell sold out to MS a long time ago, over those empty patent threats. Novell is MS' linux department these days.

My local boozer is more of a threat to MS than Novell.
ah okay, but maybe the agreement Novell did was also good for their customers in terms of interoperability?
So maybe Novell has brought themselves in a position of an even bigger threat to Microsoft.

[phrostbyte]

No, people have seen too many of these DEALS involving microsoft that they are concerned about what is actually behind the deal and rightly so.

Microsoft invested heavily in Novell. Microsoft paid Novell several hundred million dollars up front, and it return Microsoft gets a sizable cut of all money Novell makes from Linux. So if Novell is successful, Microsoft will make a lot of money from the deal.

Microsoft also used Novell as tool to spread patent FUD in the Linux community. Novell itself mostly showed offense to this.

[motang]

to accomplish this Canonical needs better marketing. They need to count their users to increase user awareness. Until this happens, I dont see Canonical a big thread to M$ and Apple. The biggest thread to M$ is Google.
True, but the fact that MS has heard of Canonical is a big win in my book!

[phrostbyte]

erm... did you ever hear about Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop? Suse Linux Enterprise server maybe?

Maybe you know about this small island in the south of the channel, called europe and France. There is a car manufacturer (something britain doesn't have anymore) called PSA. And they have 20000 (twentythousand) Suse Linux Enterprise Desktops.

Okay there are also lots of companies who use Ubuntu but Canonical does not have the size of Novell and Red Hat. Thats why both of them are a bigger threat to Microsoft.


ah okay, but maybe the agreement Novell did was also good for their customers in terms of interoperability?
So maybe Novell has brought themselves in a position of an even bigger threat to Microsoft.

Not really, they kind of exposed their customer to some patent liability inadvertently. Because they signed a 5 year contract, something like 2 years ago. So in 3 years Microsoft has the right to sue anyone using SUSE Linux, and it will be easier to do so, since SUSE of all distros is most likely to violate Microsoft patents because of all the highly patented "interoperability work".

Historically, almost everyone who has done a major deal with Microsoft has been stabbed in the back. They are very good at making deals that look appealing at first, but wrecking the business of the group they did a deal with using technicalities. See: Apple, IBM for examples. :)

[Ericj1186]

I agree. Ubuntu will continue to remain relatively popular but I don't think it will unseat Windows any time soon.

I look forward to see if Google can put up a serious fight against Windows. Even for a company as big as Google it is very difficult, IBM tried with OS/2 and failed. Apple puts billions of dollars into marketing and developing Mac, and while they are quite profitable, even during the economic slump. But OS X marketshare is something like 25x less then Windows worldwide.

But at the same time I think today Microsoft is not as big and powerful as they were in ~2000. The Internet and rapid fire anti-trust lawsuits weakened them quite a bit. So where IBM failed it is possible for Google to succeed.

To be fair to Linux, this was the first year that Microsoft has dropped below 90% market share. That on its own is impressive. I think it broke down to OSX having around 7 or 8% and Linux taking the rest. I remember Linux wasn't huge, but it is growing. Basically, Vista was the best thing to happen to Linux.

[Viva]

Not really, they kind of exposed their customer to some patent liability inadvertently. Because they signed a 5 year contract, something like 2 years ago. So in 3 years Microsoft has the right to sue anyone using SUSE Linux, and it will be easier to do so, since SUSE of all distros is most likely to violate Microsoft patents because of all the highly patented "interoperability work".

Historically, almost everyone who has done a major deal with Microsoft has been stabbed in the back. They are very good at making deals that look appealing at first, but wrecking the business of the group they did a deal with using technicalities. See: Apple, IBM for examples. :)

http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf

This document looks further into the said details including quotes from microsoft employees.

[phrostbyte]

Actually, Microsoft has a really nice legal avenue to seriously damage Linux thanks to the Novell agreement.

Microsoft has been filing patents at a ridiculous rate in the past 4-5 years. Building up a legal warchest against their competitors.

So Microsoft signs an agreement with Novell, allowing Novell to use patented Microsoft technology without risk. But this intentionally has a short time limit, long enough for Novell to integrate enough patented Microsoft technology.

After it expires, they will sue Novell and all their customers. No thanks to Novell sharing their customer list with Microsoft.

A lawsuit is just a lawsuit though. Why target Novell and not Red Hat for instance?

Easy. I am not convinced that Novell will get the same level of support from the Linux community that Canonical or Red Hat would get if sued by Microsoft. Less people finding prior art, less public support. This will make Microsoft's case easier.

Microsoft WANTS Novell to look bad in the eyes of the Linux community. So sites like BoycottNovell and what not I think are ironically helping Microsoft.

If they sue and win a patent case against a major Linux vendor, this will greatly increase their chances of winning lawsuits against Canonical and Red Hat, even with public support.

[phrostbyte]

http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf

This document looks further into the said details including quotes from microsoft employees.

Yes, it has always been Microsoft modus operandi to completely screw anyone who signs a contract with them. That is literally the foundation of their business and success. It's the core of everything Microsoft has done to become a billion dollar behemoth. They know how to sign contracts to their advantage.

I don't see how the Novell deal or the Yahoo deal will end up any different.

[KiwiNZ]

The MS Novell debate is a Red hearing . It has also been discussed ad nauseum

Lets move on

[Dark Aspect]

They might soon offer to port MS Office to linux in exchange for making IE the default browser on Ubuntu;)

Considering that openoffice and firefox are both better, that offer won't do much for me.

[the8thstar]

I've read the article on that link. I am removing Windows 7 RC from my drive immediately. That is final. Microsoft is the embodiment of everything unethical in a business : deception, aggressiveness and lies. I don't care if they are number 1, I don't care if I have less 'compatibility' because I use only Linux. In the end, I am just another cow to milk for them... We all are. Enough is enough. Shame on you Microsoft and shame on your unfair practices.

[Viva]

I've read the article on that link. I am removing Windows 7 RC from my drive immediately. That is final. Microsoft is the embodiment of everything unethical in a business : deception, aggressiveness and lies. I don't care if they are number 1, I don't care if I have less 'compatibility' because I use only Linux. In the end, I am just another cow to milk for them... We all are. Enough is enough. Shame on you Microsoft and shame on your unfair practices.

Is that supposed to be sarcastic?:|

[Jimleko211]

I've read the article on that link. I am removing Windows 7 RC from my drive immediately. That is final. Microsoft is the embodiment of everything unethical in a business : deception, aggressiveness and lies. I don't care if they are number 1, I don't care if I have less 'compatibility' because I use only Linux. In the end, I am just another cow to milk for them... We all are. Enough is enough. Shame on you Microsoft and shame on your unfair practices.
+1 None of my friends give a sh** about unethical business practices, but that doesn't mean that I don't.

All linux, all the time!

[KiwiNZ]

I've read the article on that link. I am removing Windows 7 RC from my drive immediately. That is final. Microsoft is the embodiment of everything unethical in a business : deception, aggressiveness and lies. I don't care if they are number 1, I don't care if I have less 'compatibility' because I use only Linux. In the end, I am just another cow to milk for them... We all are. Enough is enough. Shame on you Microsoft and shame on your unfair practices.

Of course they say that to the Securities commission . That way they can try and avoid the endless pointless anti trust cases that just feed lawyers pockets.

Its the same with the Patent cases, laws drafted by lawyers to feed lawyers. If patent holder does not actively defend their patent they lose it . Good way to keep the litigation fees coming in.

[the8thstar]

Is that supposed to be sarcastic?:|

No, it's the honest truth. I knew MS wasn't great, I just didn't know its dishonesty permeated so wide and deep. I am very upset right now to the point that I feel that I've been used and had.

[phrostbyte]

Of course they say that to the Securities commission . That way they can try and avoid the endless pointless anti trust cases that just feed lawyers pockets.

Its the same with the Patent cases, laws drafted by lawyers to feed lawyers. If patent holder does not actively defend their patent they lose it . Good way to keep the litigation fees coming in.

You "must litigate" if you want damages (just like any civil law), but you don't have to litigate to have a valid patent.

There is a statue of limitations for patents, IE if someone violates your patent for 6 years and you take no actions, you lose the right to sue that person or organization for damages. But you don't lose the patent itself. But there is a statue of limitation for pretty much EVERY law, even shoplifting for instance (a store usually can't press charges for something you stole 5 years ago). There are a few notable exceptions, like murder, which can be prosecuted for life.

Trademark is a bit different, it's possible for a trademark to be generic if used too often outside of the company product scope. But patents don't have this "must litigate" possibility.

But yes, the longer Microsoft waits, the more difficult it will be to litigate against Linux. That is why if they want to do this (and trust me, they do), they will do so in the not so distant future.

[KiwiNZ]

No, it's the honest truth. I knew MS wasn't great, I just didn't know its dishonesty permeated so wide and deep. I am very upset right now to the point that I feel that I've been used and had.

Did you read just the Blog ( aarrgghh I hate those abominations) or did you drill through and read the actual submission to the commission?

[The Toxic Mite]

Yet more anti-Microsoft FUD...

Everybody has their opinion, but for now, I remain neutral.

[Viva]

No, it's the honest truth. I knew MS wasn't great, I just didn't know its dishonesty permeated so wide and deep. I am very upset right now to the point that I feel that I've been used and had.

That is great to hear:D

[sydbat]

Of course they say that to the Securities commission . That way they can try and avoid the endless pointless anti trust cases that just feed lawyers pockets.

Its the same with the Patent cases, laws drafted by lawyers to feed lawyers. If patent holder does not actively defend their patent they lose it . Good way to keep the litigation fees coming in. A huge +1. It's all about money and trying to take it from everyone else...at least from a lawyers :twisted: POV...I say we follow Shakespeare's advice...

[phrostbyte]

A huge +1. It's all about money and trying to take it from everyone else...at least from a lawyers :twisted: POV...I say we follow Shakespeare's advice...

The thing is you can't really have patent law without massive amounts of lawyers doing everything. Patent violation is never as clear cut as copyright even, because violation is never as clear cut, because the idea of can be covered in a patent is even more abstract that what is covered in a copyright.

Prior art is a big issue, it's very hard for a patent office to research if prior art exists (and it doesn't have be in a previous patent). Obviousness is also STRONGLY subjective. So depending on how good your lawyer at putting forth an argument to a jury, you might win or lose an obviousness argument. This all requires massive amounts of time, and good lawyers bill per the hour and extremely high rates (sometimes over $1000 USD/hr).

Litigating and filing patents is thus a very lawyer intensive process. Very expensive to both file a patent (tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars per patent), and to litigate a patent (usually millions of dollars). There are MANY MANY lawyers who just specialize in patent law for this reason.

There is a loser and a winner in every court case, but there lawyer always wins :)

If you want to make a lot of money from copyright or patents, don't be a writer or inventor. Be a lawyer. :)

[Old Marcus]

Yes, Microsoft are an evil company that kills babies daily. Doesn't stop me liking Windows 7.

[Dragonbite]

to accomplish this Canonical needs better marketing. They need to count their users to increase user awareness. Until this happens, I dont see Canonical a big thread to M$ and Apple. The biggest thread to M$ is Google.

Actually, what will be interesting is when the Oracle and Sun giant gets things streamlined. Then they can take on Microsoft almost 1:1

Windows vs Solaris/OpenSolaris
.NET vs Java
Office vs OpenOffice.org/StarOffice
SQL Server vs Oracle
Visual Studio vs Netbeans
Access vs MySQL
NTFS vs ZFS
Virtual PC vs Virtualbox
plus, Oracle will be able to have a complete server appliance from hardware (Sparc) to software (Solaris/Java/Oracle/etc) in a nice, easy to deploy package.

[Dr. C]

Canonical is a very serious threat to Microsoft and over the long term much more serious than Google, Apple, RedHat or Novell. When you can produce a product that is in many ways superior to Microsoft's at 1/10000 of the cost that is a very serious longterm threat.

Canonical has made GNU / Linux easily usable by the computer novice and is a direct threat to the one market that Microsoft dominates, the desktop. It will not happen over night, no it will be a slow grinding away of Microsoft's market share.

[JawsThemeSwimming428]

Canonical is a very serious threat to Microsoft and over the long term much more serious than Google, Apple, RedHat or Novell. When you can produce a product that is in many ways superior to Microsoft's at 1/10000 of the cost that is a very serious longterm threat.

Canonical has made GNU / Linux easily usable by the computer novice and is a direct threat to the one market that Microsoft dominates, the desktop. It will not happen over night, no it will be a slow grinding away of Microsoft's market share.

It will be interesting to see how that holds up once Google's Chrome OS is ready for prime time. I don't think this will happen very fast because it usually takes an OS a while to get enough credit to be a player, but it will be interesting eventually.

[otz070]

1. The biggest secret to advertising is that a good product sells its self.
2. Only idiots buy things just because they are wrapped in big fancy packages.
3. If you disagree with number 2 then reread number 2. (also congratulations!)

Point well enough stated?
:popcorn:

[RiceMonster]

Access vs MySQL

I think you mean SQL Server vs MySQL.

[dmizer]

If you closely read the "source" referred to in the first post, you'll find that the ACTUAL source is here: http://www.techflash.com/Microsoft_filing_lists_Canonical_Red_Hat_as_PC_Win dows_rivals_52370627.html

The blog reads far more into the report than is actually there. The actual source simply reports that Canonical and Redhat are listed as competitors.

Keep in mind here that:
The 10-K form (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_10-K) being discussed in the article is basically a summary of corporate performance, and is submitted to the SEC.

The SEC (http://www.sec.gov/about/whatwedo.shtml) is an oversite group which serves to:

... protect investors, maintain fair, orderly, and efficient markets, and facilitate capital formation.
Of course Microsoft would list Canonical as a competitor in a report to a group who's purpose is to "maintain fair, orderly, and efficient markets". Especially since Microsoft has long been accused (particularly in Europe) of anti-competitive market practices.

Here's a copy of the actual report: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/789019/000119312509158735/d10k.htm

As you can see, the blurb about competition is hardly the focus of the report, and is (in my opinion) probably overstated in an effort to reduce Microsoft's anti-competitive litigation risks.

It's an interesting read but far from the sensational rhetoric given by the blog posting.

[Dragonbite]

I think you mean SQL Server vs MySQL.

Actually, it's more like
Access vs OpenOffice Base (with a lot of work needed)
SQL Server Express vs MySQL

Since I already put SQL Server against Oracle.

[gnomeuser]

I, literally, hate when people twist statements to serve their own agenda by changing it's wording.

There is no talk of a threat but of competition, two completely different concepts. Additionally as if the people linking this aren't dishonest enough the article itself turns acknowledgement of the existence of competition into fear.

This is clearly twisted to make Microsoft appear afraid and willing to act irrationally to rid themselves of Canonical when nothing of the sort was in the article nor in the original statement from Microsoft.

Here is what this means: We know there is competition out there, we still think we have a compelling product and we will find ways to show people that. Here are some of the guys we intend to directly compete with (or have elected to directly compete with us). In other words no different than what Canonical says about Microsoft (see Bug #1), Microsoft exists, they have highly successful products which we intend to compete with.. does that mean Canonical are inherently afraid of Microsoft and plan to take unjust legal action (which is basically implied by both the wording of the article and people here).

So.. big whoop, Microsoft knows we exist, they have for years and they have competed with us for years. Nothing new, nothing to be scared of and definitely under any circumstances not a vehiecle for anyone to push their agenda of Microsoft hatred. So stop.. now, it's tiresome and dishonest.

[RiceMonster]

Actually, it's more like
Access vs OpenOffice Base (with a lot of work needed)
SQL Server Express vs MySQL

Since I already put SQL Server against Oracle.

Yeah, that's probably a better comparison.

[Johnsie]

Let's get this into perspective. Canonical is very, very, very small compared to Microsoft. While Ubuntu may attract some hobbyists, most people choose to use Windows products on the desktop.

Ubuntu is good for web servers, but in terms of usage numbers it doesn't really significantly compete with Windows on the desktop or business workstation side of things.

Ubuntu doesn't have the marketing that Apple or Microsoft has and it's still too technical/confusing for most non-tech users to change operating system.

Make a a simple, decent installer and you might be able to change that. If you can't win on the pre-installed computers kind of thing you need to make it easier for people to make the switch without having any technical knowledge.

[Simian Man]

Canonical is a very serious threat to Microsoft and over the long term much more serious than Google, Apple, RedHat or Novell. When you can produce a product that is in many ways superior to Microsoft's at 1/10000 of the cost that is a very serious longterm threat.

Canonical has made GNU / Linux easily usable by the computer novice and is a direct threat to the one market that Microsoft dominates, the desktop. It will not happen over night, no it will be a slow grinding away of Microsoft's market share.


Not really. Canonical is at least an order of magnitude smaller than those other companies and largely relies on others (esp. Red Hat and Debian) to actually produce the product they offer. Ubuntu has made a big impression for home users but they are a long way from making serious inroads in the industry.


plus, Oracle will be able to have a complete server appliance from hardware (Sparc) to software (Solaris/Java/Oracle/etc) in a nice, easy to deploy package.

Actually I'm pretty sure that Oracle will be discontinuing the Sparc line, which is unfortunate because they made great servers.

[Sef]

Locked. Original post is not being addressed.