ubuntu vs debian forums

[lestatius]

I've been on the debian forums for a few days to see what their community is like and there are some nice ppl on there too. The only thing I've noticed why do debian forums think so low of ubuntu forums? One thing I saw there is that they say is that everything around here gets asked 100x while you can google it or find it anywhere on the forums. I tried getting a dual install of ubuntu and debian but that didn't work, and I took a long time trying to get my wireless to get to work in debian I decided to stay here with ubuntu. Until I have more experience with linux/ubuntu. But I just still think it strange that they think so low of ubuntu forums, but why think like that if we are actually have one thing in common and that is wanting to learn linux or whatever linux distro you run on.

[.Maleficus.]

You'll find that a lot of other Linux distros (the "harder" ones like Debian, Gentoo, Arch, Slackware) look down on Ubuntu for it's automation, bloat and so forth. What's hard for a new Linux (read - Ubuntu) user is usually trivial for a user of Debian/Gentoo/etc.

And it's true, 95% of the questions asked here have been asked before and could be answered with a Google search. I've even found that to be true with Arch - I'm not even sure I've made a support thread on the Arch Linux forums yet, simply because searching always yields results.


Edit: I suppose it would be good to mention that the search feature here isn't really that good. If you want to search the forums, a much better way is to use Google like this.

*search query here* site:ubuntuforums.org

[lestatius]

ah ok. I see, that's one reason I actually started with ubuntu, cuz it seemed the easiest version with to get to know linux after having used windows for years. Eventually I do want to be able to get to work with Debian. I do use both searches the ubuntu forums search and the google search when I'm looking for an answer.

[frup]

You can't expect a new user to know what to search for when they don't know the answer.

When I first started linux I had no idea what Xorg, lspci, cups, gdm, menu.lst... etc. etc. etc. Because of that, I could not search for information relating to that.

Now if I have a problem with graphics for example I might search Xorg problem. A new user can't do that.

If I have a problem with hardware I might lspci first and refine my search, a new user can't do that, many might just be aware that something isn't quite right, if that.

Asking questions is how to learn, when you have a problem you often want someone to answer a question as quickly as possible. If you are a bit unsure about what you are doing, you probably want a guiding hand: A thread on ubuntuforums.

[.Maleficus.]

Yes, but a new user can at least type in an error message into Google. I just searched "grub error 17 site:ubuntuforums.org" and there are over 9000 (lol) hits. Now do that without "site:ubuntuforums.org" and you'll surely find one suitable answer (and probably on the first page!). I should at least be able to expect that small level of effort before that same question pops up again.

[Roasted]

I went into a Debian chat once and once they found out I was on Ubuntu, I wasn't exactly the most popular guy there.

Anybody can argue with me all day that your distro is better, blah blah blah. For one, I'm not in a competition and I never once indicated I thought my distro was better. I just use Ubuntu because it does the job very well and it's very user friendly for me.

I don't use Linux so I can be like omgawsh guys I'm lyk a programmah now cuz I use lynux. No, not like that at all. I use Linux as an alternative to Windows, which I find to be an extremely powerful one. Even something on the simpler side, such as Ubuntu, still retains the advanced fundamentals of Linux that I love utilizing everyday, despite my straight-forward preferences.

If anything, it's the Debian users who are hurting themselves. Typically Ubuntu users are there for the same reasons I am - to have an operating system that works and doesn't take a 10 year degree to manage. Debian users are typically brewing up the "omg I can't believe they call themselves a debian based distro." AKA - Poor Attitudes. Only hurts themselves and ultimately it'll only hurt the user-base reputation of the distribution. I use what I want, they use what they want - and I (personally) leave it at that.

Ubuntu is the largest distribution with the largest forum support base and it's still Linux at the core and I can still do pretty much whatever I want with it.

I find it pretty hard to argue why I'm wrong for choosing it when you dump a box full of logic on the table.

[Anzan]

There are a lot of very good people on the Debian forums and some great howtos.

Traffic is lower than here and people here need more help which is why I usually post here instead of there.

There, I usually just read and will generally find at least one thing I didn't know before.

[tjwoosta]

I've been on the debian forums for a few days to see what their community is like and there are some nice ppl on there too. The only thing I've noticed why do debian forums think so low of ubuntu forums? One thing I saw there is that they say is that everything around here gets asked 100x while you can google it or find it anywhere on the forums. I tried getting a dual install of ubuntu and debian but that didn't work, and I took a long time trying to get my wireless to get to work in debian I decided to stay here with ubuntu. Until I have more experience with linux/ubuntu. But I just still think it strange that they think so low of ubuntu forums, but why think like that if we are actually have one thing in common and that is wanting to learn linux or whatever linux distro you run on.

The reason is simple, Ubuntu is based around the forums. If your an ubuntu user you usually read forums to find out how to do stuff and fix problems, most will even post their question to the community before ever using the search feature, resulting in multiple threads on the same topic.

With other distros, you are expected to read the wiki documentation. Now that may seem like its harder to the average ubuntu user, because to be honest the ubuntu wiki sucks. But with other distros their wiki documentation is usually amazing. When people say just RTFM they usually mean it, there not just trying to be ***holes. Everything you need to know has usually already been nicely documented and theres no reason to ask people on the forums to explain it to you again when you have a perfectly good manual sitting in front of you.

[Post Monkeh]

it's human nature to try and feel better about yourself. the natural way to do that is to find people to look down on. linux users in general look down on windows users. not always in a bad way, they just feel that their way is better.

debain users probably feel that ubuntu is nothing more than a dumbed down version of debian (which, esentially, it is) and therefore they feel that they're better.

in reality, not everyone has the time or inclination to get an in depth knowledge of everything about their o/s, so ubuntu is fine for most people, however the real zealots of the world always have to try and find something to fedel superior about

[tjwoosta]

Re: ubuntu vs debian forums
it's human nature to try and feel better about yourself. the natural way to do that is to find people to look down on. linux users in general look down on windows users. not always in a bad way, they just feel that their way is better.

debain users probably feel that ubuntu is nothing more than a dumbed down version of debian (which, esentially, it is) and therefore they feel that they're better.

in reality, not everyone has the time or inclination to get an in depth knowledge of everything about their o/s, so ubuntu is fine for most people, however the real zealots of the world always have to try and find something to fedel superior about


lol, um...no

Have you ever even used debian? Its basically the same exact thing as Ubuntu except focused on servers and stability. The users dont have a superiority complex like you seem to suggest. They just dont like repeating themselves ever time somebody asks the same redundant questions. Its still just as easy, except instead of asking people on the forums for the answer to your problems you search for the answer your self because its already been answered.

[Post Monkeh]

lol, um...no

Have you ever even used debian? Its basically the same exact thing as Ubuntu except focused on servers and stability. The users dont have a superiority complex like you seem to suggest. They just dont like repeating themselves ever time somebody asks the same redundant questions. Its still just as easy, except instead of asking people on the forums for the answer to your problems you search for the answer your self because its already been answered.

i've used debian. it might seem similar to the trained eye, but in reality it's no where near as user friendly. because of this, the people who use it probably consider themselves to be a bit more knowledgable than the folks who use the easier-to-use ubuntu. obviously not everyone will be the same, but unfortunately it's a fact of life that no matter how much we try to hide it, most of us have to feel superior about something in order to be happy, and when it comes to computers and technology in general, the people who regularly use the more difficult to operate programs (or in this case linux distribution), get a bit of a superiority complex over everyone else who, they feel, simply aren't as intelligent as them.

in reality of course, most people just get to a stage where they know so much about something that people's questions seem stupid, when in reality it's just because they don't have that vast a knowledge yet.
i've even seen it on here. people ask a question and they're told "you need to move that file to here, take back ownership of it, then change the file permissions. after that, you'll need to edit your users file and make an adjustment to it"
people assume too easily that other people are of a similar experience level to them, when in reality a lot of the time people need to know the bare basics more than anything (when i first started in linux i didn't even know how to copy a file after 29 years of using dos/windows!)


i think a lot of the problem too is people not even bothering to try and find a solution to their problems, and simply asking for someone else to do it for them, which then leads to people just becoming very impatient when it comes to dealing with requests for help.
in fairness i haven't been on any linux forum that i found to be very uninviting (although i've only posted on this one), but like i said, it's just human nature for some people to look down on others who don't have the same skills they do.

[Delever]

Users prefer to get advice from real people - that's what they are used to. Thanks to dedication of users in this forum and good attitude to newbies, we make them feel at home, and teach them how to take first steps in finding information themselves. This is simply different kind of forum.

[Regenweald]

The reason is simple, Ubuntu is based around the forums. If your an ubuntu user you usually read forums to find out how to do stuff and fix problems, most will even post their question to the community before ever using the search feature, resulting in multiple threads on the same topic.

With other distros, you are expected to read the wiki documentation. Now that may seem like its harder to the average ubuntu user, because to be honest the ubuntu wiki sucks. But with other distros their wiki documentation is usually amazing. When people say just RTFM they usually mean it, there not just trying to be ***holes. Everything you need to know has usually already been nicely documented and theres no reason to ask people on the forums to explain it to you again when you have a perfectly good manual sitting in front of you.

I have to agree, I went to the FreeBSD site, did some reading and now feel very comfortable and fully understand compiling a custom kernel. Tried the same with Linux and it seemed a bit convoluted to say the least. BSD, Gentoo, Arch to name a few, excel at documentation and they are fully within their right to say RTFM because ALL the information you need exists.

Has anyone in here ever done proper complete documentation ? It is not easy. Why should these small development groups go through all the trouble of creating immaculate documentation only to have a user ask: how do i install X or confugure Y ?

Ubuntu has bitten the bullet and said 'Easy to use' and the community at large puts in herculean effort keeping noobs happy and answering the same questions over and over. don't criticise other didtributions for documenting everything and asking you to read. It allows them valuable development time.

[Post Monkeh]

I have to agree, I went to the FreeBSD site, did some reading and now feel very comfortable and fully understand compiling a custom kernel. Tried the same with Linux and it seemed a bit convoluted to say the least. BSD, Gentoo, Arch to name a few, excel at documentation and they are fully within their right to say RTFM because ALL the information you need exists.

Has anyone in here ever done proper complete documentation ? It is not easy. Why should these small development groups go through all the trouble of creating immaculate documentation only to have a user ask: how do i install X or confugure Y ?

Ubuntu has bitten the bullet and said 'Easy to use' and the community at large puts in herculean effort keeping noobs happy and answering the same questions over and over. don't criticise other didtributions for documenting everything and asking you to read. It allows them valuable development time.

ah, but is the in depth documentation really easy for a brand new user to look at and find the information they need?

there's different support required for users depending on their level of experience. an online manual might be great for an intermediate user, or even someone with very basic knowledge, but what about someone with no knowledge at all?


i'd say most people with a good grasp of computing would pick it up quickly enough themselves reading the onlne documentation, but i think a lot of people who've used linux for years are a bit out of touch with people coming from years of windows use, and simply don't realise how scary linux is. not in a way that it is too hard to master, but it is relatively easy to screw things up in linux, (i've had to reinstall a few times due to stupidity on my part) and most people these days are used to being able to get help. i just think people need to be a bit more understanding of how hard it is to make a change from windows to linux, even though it seemed easy to them.

[tjwoosta]

ah, but is the in depth documentation really easy for a brand new user to look at and find the information they need?

there's different support required for users depending on their level of experience. an online manual might be great for an intermediate user, or even someone with very basic knowledge, but what about someone with no knowledge at all?


i'd say most people with a good grasp of computing would pick it up quickly enough themselves reading the onlne documentation, but i think a lot of people who've used linux for years are a bit out of touch with people coming from years of windows use, and simply don't realise how scary linux is. not in a way that it is too hard to master, but it is relatively easy to screw things up in linux, (i've had to reinstall a few times due to stupidity on my part) and most people these days are used to being able to get help. i just think people need to be a bit more understanding of how hard it is to make a change from windows to linux, even though it seemed easy to them.


Thats why we have Ubuntu. It acts as a stepping stone into the linux world, but once your here you cant expect other distros to work the same way.

Reading the documentation may seem overwhelming to newcomers from the windows world, but once you do it, you realize that its actually much easier and more efficient then relying on other people in forums.

Take the arch wiki for example, one must follow the wiki right from the start to install arch. It walks you through the entire process from start to finish including partitioning, installing the base system, installing a WM/DE, installing software, and setting up any config files. If you install a new piece of software and are unsure of how to set it up, just use the search function on the wiki and find the page related to that piece of software, you will find everything you need all together in one page.

Lets say I want to install mpd, I would search mpd and this is what you get
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Mpd

how about conky
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Conky


This is much easier and more efficient then asking the forums and relying on other users to give you useful and reliable information.

[Regenweald]

And to add to what tjwoosta said, I also give new linux/FOSS users exactly the amount of credit they deserve. In the majority of cases noobs have INSTALLED Ubuntu themselves. Easy or not, if you are aware enough of what an OS is and then search out an alternative to Windows, successfully install it and then find UbuntuForums, you can certainly read.

As for Debian, It CERTAINLY does not come preinstalled :) so again, if you can find you way to Debian or BSD and such, you can certainly find your way to a wiki or relevant documentation on a site.

[SoftwareExplorer]

I started using Linux on Debian and Knoppix. I think Debian is close to Ubuntu, but Debian really focuses on free and stable. Good goals if you ask me. But it makes it harder for the new user, you have to go figure out how to install nvidia drivers for instance. And stuff does take awhile to get to Debian stable. Overall, Ubuntu seems a little better at insulating new users form the CLI. And Ubuntu's install is better than Debian's by miles, especially when you are on a slow connection. I switched to Ubuntu because when I installed Debian it seemed like you could clog our Internet for 15 hr. or install fast and have dependency hell. I never did get compiz to work on Debian, and it was already installed on Ubuntu, along with a nice how-to on how to set it up with the cube, etc on these forums. However, I am glad Debian exists, because they would make a loud alarm if there was a danger of to much proprietary.

[schauerlich]

It's amazing how much people criticize Debian users for looking down on Ubuntu, yet Ubuntu users are perfectly okay with looking down on Linux Mint.

[khelben1979]

Yes, but a new user can at least type in an error message into Google. I just searched "grub error 17 site:ubuntuforums.org" and there are over 9000 (lol) hits. Now do that without "site:ubuntuforums.org" and you'll surely find one suitable answer (and probably on the first page!). I should at least be able to expect that small level of effort before that same question pops up again.

And you'll probably see that all the answers isn't identical too. I find it interesting to see how different users chooses to answer (not always, I confess).

[Post Monkeh]

Lets say I want to install mpd, I would search mpd and this is what you get
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Mpd

how about conky
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Conky


This is much easier and more efficient then asking the forums and relying on other users to give you useful and reliable information.

those guides are great for someone who has a basic grasp of linux already, but when i first started using ubuntu, i wouldn't have had a clue what running something as root meant, and that is right at the start of the guides!

and you've hit the nail on the head - that is what ubuntu is great at - introducing new users to linux, and making the passage as painless as possible. it does its job brilliantly, but my point was that perhaps that's why users of other distros look down a bit on ubuntu users. it's maybe seen as the "noobie" (christ i hate that word) version of linux, because of its ease of use, leading to some users of other distros feeling a bit superior.


and of course there's just the plain, simple fact, that in general, people who consider themselves "clued in" will always try to shun what is popular to the masses.
when apple had only a niche in the market, they were considered cool. now the ipods and iphones are everywhere, a lot of people look down on the users of apple gadgets simply because they're seen as the phone/mp3 player that every idiot goes for who doesn't know any better. maybe the users of other distros think that way about ubuntu.

[snowpine]

Lots of obnoxious Ubuntu users, too... it's just that ubuntuforums.org is highly moderated (so the jerks get banned and out-of-control threads get closed), whereas forums.debian.net is more of a free-for-all.

You'll find plenty of helpful, polite, and knowledgeable users of either distro.