Measurements

[Grant A.]

Which measurements do you prefer?

I like the customary system with Fahrenheit the best. In my opinion, Fahrenheit is a bit more precise than Celsius, and easier to do math with, because of less-likely chance that you'll run into a decimal. Sure there are oddball markers for things (Water Freezes: ~32°F, Water Boils: ~212°F), but there's not really that much that the average person has to memorize.

I don't really get the hype about metric > customary/imperial, either. Everyone says, "Use what works best for you" when it comes to operating systems, so why can't we apply the same ideology to measurements?

[Bölvaður]

I don't really get the hype about metric > customary/imperial, either.


NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.

SI (le Système international d'unités/International System of Units) has great consistency that lacks in other systems. It can be made better but when it comes to any other system it shines.

I really dont get why you are saying "Fahrenheit is a bit more precise than Celsius" as it doesnt only use integer numbers o.0 must be a tiny oversight. Only very young children would expect every number to be an integer number.

[MikeTheC]

Yes, however the Imperial system is generally used in the aeronautical business, not metric.

[Pogeymanz]

Metric is so much better.

Wait how many inches are in a foot? 12.
How many feet in a yard? 3.
How many yards in a mile? .... etc.

How many centimeters in a decimeter? 10.
How many decimeters in a meter? 10.
Meters in a decameter? 10.
Get it yet?

And Kelvin is the best for temperature. When there is no thermal energy at all, it's called zero. That's the true meaning of zero temperature- none of this negative crap. And what's so hard about decimals? If you really have such a terrible time with decimals, just multiply everything by 10.

[lisati]

Yes, however the Imperial system is generally used in the aeronautical business, not metric.

True: a few years ago I used to hang out with a bunch of people who liked to jump out of planes. It was more common to talk about altitudes in "feet" than "metres".

Speaking of temperatures, I'm sure I heard a blooper on one of the ST:TNG shows, where they were saying something about the temperature being something like -690 degrees C

[MikeTheC]

But I like knowing there's nothing smaller than an inch.

And there's 12 inches in a foot.

And there's 3 feet in a yard.

And there's 5,280 feet in a mile.

And there's 43,560 square feet in an acre.

It's all so obvious, I can't understand why anyone would complain.



</sarcasm>

[MikeTheC]

Speaking of temperatures, I'm sure I heard a blooper on one of the ST:TNG shows, where they were saying something about the temperature being something like -690 degrees C

Why would that be a blooper in particular? Were they referring to a gas that we know freezes at a warmer temperature?

[RiceMonster]

Metric and Celcious because they make sense.

Celcius: freezing at 0, boiling at 100. Random numbers in Fahrenheit.

Metric: Everything is a multiple of 10. Random numbers in imperial.

[Grant A.]

SI (le Système international d'unités/International System of Units) has great consistency that lacks in other systems. It can be made better but when it comes to any other system it shines.

Consistency is great, but it doesn't take much to memorize a few simple conversions. Volume-wise, everything goes up in multiples of 2 in customary.

8 ounces to a cup, 2 cups to a pint, 2 pints to a quart, 4 quarts to a gallon.

That's really consistent enough, in my opinion. Length is where things get weird.

12 inches to a foot, 3 feet to a yard, 1,760 yards to a mile.

But even then, that's not much to memorize, compared to the many deviations of different lengths in the metric system. Millimeter, Centimeter, Meter, Kilometer, etc. I will admit that the Metric system is more accurate, in this respect.



I really dont get why you are saying "Fahrenheit is a bit more precise than Celsius" as it doesnt only use integer numbers o.0 must be a tiny oversight. Only very young children would expect every number to be an integer number.

Fahrenheit is a broader scale than Celsius, in terms of integer numbers. I absolutely hate division using floating numbers.


I doubt the United States will ever leave the Customary system. The European Union recently gave up on trying to make Great Britain use the Metric system. Those stubborn Brits and their Imperial System. :P

People just use what they are accustomed to, overall. If you forced everyone in the United States to use metric in public, they'd still probably be referring to things in "feet" and "inches" in private and in general conversations. Some people in the U.K. and Canada still use inches as a universal measurement, despite Metric being the official system.

[MikeTheC]

Grant A.:

You missed a measurement system, sir. It's called "Picas and Points" and it happens to be one I'm quite familiar with, given one of my professions.

I have been known to calculate orbital distances in Picas (did it in points once just for laughs). The Moon, for instance, has an average orbital altitude of 91,143,662,329 picas and an odd number of points.

[RiceMonster]

But even then, that's not much to memorize, compared to the many deviations of different lengths in the metric system. Millimeter, Centimeter, Meter, Kilometer, etc. I will admit that the Metric system is more accurate, in this respect.

There is more units of measurement because metric is much more flexible than imperial. But regardless, the only ones you really need to know are millimetre, centimetre, meter, and kilometre. I've honestly never heard anyone say decimetre or any other unit of measurement other than a few times in school. So really, it's still even easier to learn and remember than imperial in-which you have to know inch, foot, yard and mile.


People just use what they are accustomed to, overall. If you forced everyone in the United States to use metric in public, they'd still probably be referring to things in "feet" and "inches" in private and in general conversations. Some people in the U.K. and Canada still use inches as a universal measurement, despite Metric being the official system.

In Canada, only the older generations do. None of the younger generations who learned it in school use imperial or Fahrenheit. Obviously you can't expect everyone to change immediately.

[lisati]

Why would that be a blooper in particular? Were they referring to a gas that we know freezes at a warmer temperature?

Because minus 690 in celsius would work out to be below absolute zero.

[Firestem4]

The temperature scale Fahrenheit was specifically designed for meteorological purposes as opposed to Celsius which is a more scientifically accurate scale.

{from wikipedia)

Resistance to the Celsius system was partly due to the larger size of each degree Celsius, resulting in the need for fractions, where integral Fahrenheit degrees were adequate for much technical work. The lower zero point in the Fahrenheit system reduced the number of negative signs when measurements such as weather data were averaged.

I am indifferent for the most part. I am from the US so I am accustomed to the imperial scale

(as a note i may be thinking of Customary instead of imperial..its just ive always heard it referred to as Customary..).

[Grant A.]

There is more different lengths in measurement because metric is much more flexible than imperial. But regardless, the only ones you really need to know are millimetre, centimetre, meter, and kilometre. I've honestly never heard anyone say decimetre or any other unit of measurement other than a few times in school. So really, it's still even easier to learn and remember than imperial in-which you have to know inch, foot, yard and mile.

You're correct, but you break the x10 scale of the metric system when you leave out decimeter, thus breaking your "simple" conversion chain.

It's nowhere near as twisted as Customary or Imperial has come to be, but by leaving out things, you're slowly getting there.

Besides, yards aren't used very often, like your decimeter. Mostly the scale just jumps from feet to miles. Giving us even less stuff to memorize.

[RiceMonster]

You're correct, but you break the x10 scale of the metric system when you leave out decimeter, thus breaking your "simple" conversion chain.
No, not at all. It goes like this:
Centimetre: 10 millimetres
Meter: 100 centimetres
Kilometre: 1000 meters

That's still much easier to remember than:
foot: 12 inches
yard: 3 feet
mile: 5,280 feet


See, in metric there is still a pattern because they're all a multiple of 10, whereas there is no pattern at all in imperial. The only reason anyone thinks imperial is simpler is because that's what they grew up with and are accustomed to.


Besides, yards aren't used very often, like your decimeter. Mostly the scale just jumps from feet to miles. Giving us even less stuff to memorize.

One name, big deal. I can even argue that millimetres almost never get used because it's such a small unit of measurement. In that case, your argument has no ground. However, my point still stands regardless because the numbers are still much easier to remember and the names even follow a pattern that makes sense.

[Bölvaður]

You're correct, but you break the x10 scale of the metric system when you leave out decimeter, thus breaking your "simple" conversion chain.

That is not really correct.

There is just one measurement unit for length, it is a metre.
kilo = 10³
So the only conversion is only the power of 10, which can and often should be left out, depending on the accuracy that is expected of it.

[Giant Speck]

The metric system is a brilliant measurement system, as everything is in terms of powers of 10. The prefixes for such measurements are the same, regardless of what you are measuring (except for seconds).

Standard unit of length: meter
Standard unit of volume: liter
Standard unit of mass: kilogram
Standard unit of temperature: kelvin

1000 meters = 1 kilometer, just as 1000 grams = 1 kilogram.

The problem with trying to adopt it as the default measurement system in the United States is that almost everyone is accustomed to the existing Imperial system. The only time average Americans even have exposure to the metric system is in science class in school, but even then, it doesn't stick. It would be a logistical nightmare trying to convert everything to metric.

[Skripka]

Measure with a micrometer, mark with a chalk, and cut with an ax.

[MikeTheC]

Because minus 690 in celsius would work out to be below absolute zero.

So it'd be below it. What's so odd about that? I've met *many* people who's I.Q. was below absolute zero, but that didn't stop *them* from being my employer's customers.

Oh, and for the record, I'm about 453p tall.

[yabbadabbadont]

Back in ancient times (the 80's), when I was studying Aerospace Engineering, we were occasionally forced to answer problems in Imperial units. Everyone would just convert the problem to Metric, work it, then convert the answer back. Since I eventually switched to Computer Science, I don't know what is customary in the AE industry.

[Whiffle]

Being an engineering type, Metric all the way. However, I feel more comfortable thinking of outdoors temperatures in Fahrenheit.

Anyone else here ever used Rankine? I actually got a kick out of seeing it (and voted for it, it was looking lonely).

[Giant Speck]

So it'd be below it. What's so odd about that? I've met *many* people who's I.Q. was below absolute zero, but that didn't stop *them* from being my employer's customers.

Please tell me you're being facetious.

[yabbadabbadont]

Please tell me you're being facetious.

Obviously, you have never had to work in tech support... :lol:

[Skripka]

Obviously, you have never had to work in tech support... :lol:

My favorite evar-was the guy who came along trying to hunt down a "strange noise" that happened every once in a while from his computer....evidently he wasn't aware of the "mouse click" sound.

[mdsmedia]

The metric system is a brilliant measurement system, as everything is in terms of powers of 10. The prefixes for such measurements are the same, regardless of what you are measuring (except for seconds).

Standard unit of length: meter
Standard unit of volume: liter
Standard unit of mass: kilogram
Standard unit of temperature: kelvin

1000 meters = 1 kilometer, just as 1000 grams = 1 kilogram.

The problem with trying to adopt it as the default measurement system in the United States is that almost everyone is accustomed to the existing Imperial system. The only time average Americans even have exposure to the metric system is in science class in school, but even then, it doesn't stick. It would be a logistical nightmare trying to convert everything to metric.

Australia converted from Imperial to Metric decades ago, as we did from pounds shillings and pence to dollars and cents in the 60s. It takes some getting used to, but how difficult do you think it is for us now, to deal with Imperial measurements?

We still commonly refer to people's height in feet and inches, though officially it's measured in centimetres. How many centimetres are there in 6 feet? "About 180". We still "run a mile" rather than a kilometre. "Inch by inch" is still a cinch while "yard by yard" is still hard.

Metric is far easier than Imperial.

[yabbadabbadont]

My favorite evar-was the guy who came along trying to hunt down a "strange noise" that happened every once in a while from his computer....evidently he wasn't aware of the "mouse click" sound.

I once had to have a customer climb under the table and pull the plug out of the outlet in order to reboot the server... they kept turning the monitor off and back on despite an exact description of the NCR full tower's two inch long, bright orange power switch. At least the system was sitting at a "safe to power off" prompt at the time.

I can't remember how many times I was awakened at O'God thirty by customers who couldn't log in after rebooting their machines. The answer was always, "Turn your numlock key on..." Bank employees ALWAYS use the numeric keypad for entering numbers, even when they are part of a password. :lol:

Edit: Oh yeah, I vote for Kelvin.

[magmon]

Unfortunately, all I know at the moment is imperial. I hope to move to Canada one day, so maybe Ill start learning metric.

[Giant Speck]

Australia converted from Imperial to Metric decades ago, as we did from pounds shillings and pence to dollars and cents in the 60s. It takes some getting used to, but how difficult do you think it is for us now, to deal with Imperial measurements?

And in the 1960s, the population of Austraila was 10 million. The population of the United States today is 307 million. Also, the United States is over a century older than Australia, meaning that the Imperial system has had far more time to sink into every nook and cranny of our lives.

I'm not saying it would be difficult to teach people the metric system; I'm just saying it would be very difficult and costly to change our country's infrastructure completely to metric.

[mdsmedia]

And in the 1960s, the population of Austraila was 10 million. The population of the United States today is 307 million. Also, the United States is over a century older than Australia, meaning that the Imperial system has had far more time to sink into every nook and cranny of our lives.

I'm not saying it would be difficult to teach people the metric system; I'm just saying it would be very difficult and costly to change our country's infrastructure completely to metric.
I thought the difference in population might come in, and the age of the countries. Actually, Australia is thousands of years older than the US. That's why most of it is flat ;). But seriously, what does the age of the country have to do with it? Australians migrated, initially, from Britain. Britain is quite a bit older than the US. I'm sure there aren't terribly many still around who came out with the First Fleet, or on the Mayflower.

Do you really think it's more difficult for 300 million than for 10 million to convert from Imperial to Metric?

[yabbadabbadont]

Do you really think it's more difficult for 300 million than for 10 million to convert from Imperial to Metric?

It's 30 times harder to get 300 million people to agree to something than it is for 10 million. ;)

[vegetarianshrimp]

Celcius is genius! 0 frozen; 100 boiling. Fahrenheit, on the other hand, -32 for frozen; 212 (I think) for boiling. It's ridiculous. (In my opinion. I don't mean to offend anyone)

[mdsmedia]

It's 30 times harder to get 300 million people to agree to something than it is for 10 million. ;)

It's not really. When Australia converted, and no...it wasn't in the 60's, that was when we converted currencies, if there were 10 million you still had to get a consensus or at least a majority to decide to convert. The same would be the case with 300 million.

Consider the difference between 10 million people and 1,000 people, deciding to convert. 1,000 people might be just as opposed (or disposed) to converting as the 10 million. Not 1,000 times the difficulty.


Australia changed to the metric system from 1970 to 1988 . Imperial units of measurement that were inherited from the British were withdrawn from general legal use and replaced with the metric system, based on the International System of Units. Australia's largely successful transition to the metric system contrasts with the ongoing opposition to metrication in other English-speaking countries such as the United States and the United Kingdom.

[Giant Speck]

But seriously, what does the age of the country have to do with it? Australians migrated, initially, from Britain. Britain is quite a bit older than the US. I'm sure there aren't terribly many still around who came out with the First Fleet, or on the Mayflower.

The Plymouth colony in what is today Massachusetts was founded in 1620. The first penal colonies in Australia weren't established until 1788, which was one year after the United States Constitution was ratified.

The British Empire didn't start permitting the use of the metric system until 1873. Since the United States was independent and therefore not a part of the Empire, it was not influenced by this. However, because Australia was still a part of the British Empire at the time, the metric system was able to gain a foothold.

Australians were exposed to the metric system through their ties with Great Britain. That is what made it easier for metrication to occur in Australia.


Do you really think it's more difficult for 300 million than for 10 million to convert from Imperial to Metric?

Yes, I do.

[lisati]

So it'd be below it. What's so odd about that? I've met *many* people who's I.Q. was below absolute zero, but that didn't stop *them* from being my employer's customers.

I have my moments where people might wonder if my IQ has dropped below absolute zero. I'm sure those who have worked at tech support or help desks could tell us more tales. Now where did I see that thread dedicated to such tales?

[JDShu]

In general, I don't like imperial.. too many things and units to learn.

However, I love the word "PSI", sounds like a unit of psychic ability.

[mdsmedia]

The Plymouth colony in what is today Massachusetts was founded in 1620. The first penal colonies in Australia weren't established until 1788, which was one year after the United States Constitution was ratified.

The British Empire didn't start permitting the use of the metric system until 1873. Since the United States was independent and therefore not a part of the Empire, it was not influenced by this. However, because Australia was still a part of the British Empire at the time, the metric system was able to gain a foothold.

Australians were exposed to the metric system through their ties with Great Britain. That is what made it easier for metrication to occur in Australia.



Yes, I do.
And since Americans haven't been exposed to the metric system over the last few decades there's little chance of it ever catching on? ;)

[/sarcasm]

[Grant A.]

And since Americans haven't been exposed to the metric system over the last few decades there's little chance of it ever catching on? ;)

[/sarcasm]

Actually, it hasn't stuck. As stated before, the only exposure Americans get to the Metric system or Celsius is during science class, from the 8th grade and up. By then, the customary system has well sunken in. Hell, I'm going to 11th grade, and we still do a lot of things in the customary measurements and Fahrenheit.


The Plymouth colony in what is today Massachusetts was founded in 1620. The first penal colonies in Australia weren't established until 1788, which was one year after the United States Constitution was ratified.

The United States is actually older than even that. The colony of Jamestown, Virginia, was started in 1607.

EDIT- Also, the Articles of Confederation were ratified in 1777, the current constitution wasn't ratified until 1781.

[mdsmedia]

Actually, it hasn't stuck. As stated before, the only exposure Americans get to the Metric system or Celsius is during science class, from the 8th grade and up. By then, the customary system has well sunken in. Hell, I'm going to 11th grade, and we still do a lot of things in the customary measurements and Fahrenheit.



The United States is actually older than even that. The colony of Jamestown, Virginia, was started in 1607.

EDIT- Also, the Articles of Confederation were ratified in 1777, the current constitution wasn't ratified until 1781.
No, it hasn't stuck, but the original argument was that Australians were exposed to it through our relationship with the United Kingdom. Americans have probably had more exposure to it than Australians would have had through that relationship, since the UK still holds on to the Imperial system.

It didn't stick in Australia, either, until it was withdrawn over 18 years by law.

[MikeTheC]

I'm sure those who have worked at tech support or help desks could tell us more tales.
I worked here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_CISC) for five years. That qualifies me to comment in matters of tech support and help desks.

Yes, people really are that stupid.

[init1]

Why would that be a blooper in particular? Were they referring to a gas that we know freezes at a warmer temperature?
Because -690C doesn't exist. It's bellow absolute zero.

[moster]

@MikeTheC
I would not go that far to tell that they are stupid. Worst ones is elderly people who concept of computer is like alien ship to you.

One granny I saw, actually pick up mouse and try to double-knock on icon.

If she really is so stupid, she could not even walk, let go off cooking and raising children.

[MikeTheC]

Because -690C doesn't exist. It's bellow absolute zero.
-690C (or F, or whatever) is no different from anything else. It's valid because it's part of a continuum of measurement. It exists on a number line, and so forth. It's no different than someone living in the 1800s saying that flight (for humans) isn't a kind of thing that can exist. Or, another example would be trying to possess a negative quantity of something, like money as a for instance. On the one hand, you can't actually have -$5, but you can be in debt $5, which is measured as being -$5.

[MikeTheC]

I would not go that far to tell that they are stupid.
Don't confuse ignorance -- which is a condition we are all in prior to knowing something -- with stupidity. Ignorance can be cured through teaching. Stupidity, on the other hand, often cannot be rectified except by personal experience on the part of the individual in question.

[Giant Speck]

-690C (or F, or whatever) is no different from anything else. It's valid because it's part of a continuum of measurement. It exists on a number line, and so forth. It's no different than someone living in the 1800s saying that flight (for humans) isn't a kind of thing that can exist. Or, another example would be trying to possess a negative quantity of something, like money as a for instance. On the one hand, you can't actually have -$5, but you can be in debt $5, which is measured as being -$5.

Do you even know what absolute zero means?

[NovaAesa]

-690C (or F, or whatever) is no different from anything else. It's valid because it's part of a continuum of measurement. It exists on a number line, and so forth. It's no different than someone living in the 1800s saying that flight (for humans) isn't a kind of thing that can exist. Or, another example would be trying to possess a negative quantity of something, like money as a for instance. On the one hand, you can't actually have -$5, but you can be in debt $5, which is measured as being -$5.
:confused:
Temperature is a measure related to the amount of thermal energy that can be removed from a system. Systems with a temperature of absolute 0 (0K or ~-273.15C) cannot have any more thermal energy removed from them, therefore it is impossible to lower the temperature of a system below absolute zero.

Saying something has a temperature of -690C is as non-sensible as saying you have a triangle with sides in the ratio 4:7:12.

[Grant A.]

-690C (or F, or whatever) is no different from anything else. It's valid because it's part of a continuum of measurement. It exists on a number line, and so forth. It's no different than someone living in the 1800s saying that flight (for humans) isn't a kind of thing that can exist. Or, another example would be trying to possess a negative quantity of something, like money as a for instance. On the one hand, you can't actually have -$5, but you can be in debt $5, which is measured as being -$5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero



Absolute zero is a temperature marked by a 0 entropy configuration. It is the coldest temperature theoretically possible and cannot be reached by artificial or natural means. Temperature is an entropically defined quantity that effectively determines the number of thermodynamically accessible states of a system within an energy range...



By international agreement, absolute zero is defined as precisely 0 K on the Kelvin scale, which is a thermodynamic (absolute) temperature scale, and −273.15° on the Celsius scale.[1] Absolute zero is also precisely equivalent to 0 R on the Rankine scale (same as Kelvin but measured in Fahrenheit intervals), and −459.67° on the Fahrenheit scale. Though it is not theoretically possible to cool any substance to 0 K,[2] scientists have made great advancements in achieving temperatures close to absolute zero, where matter exhibits quantum effects such as superconductivity and superfluidity.



Do you even know what absolute zero means?

I think he's referring to the fact that science proves itself wrong all the time, and that absolute zero may not be absolute zero in the future.

[MikeTheC]

Grant:

No, that wasn't on my mind when I wrote what I wrote. However, I happen to share that view.

Speck & NovaAesa:

By your reckoning and what's in the (non-authoritative, btw) Wikipedia article, there really shouldn't be anything like absolute zero, since there's "no way to get there". Therefore, Absolute Zero itself is a pointless concept.

However, the science community keeps it around because they perceive value in it, at least as a target theoretical state they can use for measurement and the basis for measurement.

Therefore, if one unachievable temperature can be recognized as legitimate, then why can't an even colder temperature be as well?

[HappinessNow]

Which measurements do you prefer?

I like the customary system with Fahrenheit the best. In my opinion, Fahrenheit is a bit more precise than Celsius, and easier to do math with, because of less-likely chance that you'll run into a decimal. Sure there are oddball markers for things (Water Freezes: ~32°F, Water Boils: ~212°F), but there's not really that much that the average person has to memorize.

I don't really get the hype about metric > customary/imperial, either. Everyone says, "Use what works best for you" when it comes to operating systems, so why can't we apply the same ideology to measurements? Can't vote because you forgot to include the "Other" category.

I prefer the Furlong/Firkin/Fortnight (FFF) system. Where would be without nanofortnights, microfortnights, or millifortnights?:P

[gnuvistawouldbecool]

Back in ancient times (the 80's), when I was studying Aerospace Engineering, we were occasionally forced to answer problems in Imperial units. Everyone would just convert the problem to Metric, work it, then convert the answer back. Since I eventually switched to Computer Science, I don't know what is customary in the AE industry.

It's still Imperial, or at least it was when I graduated a week ago....
And presumably still is....

It's particualarly annoying since we had an assignment drawing out the flight envelope of the A310. Considering it's a european plane it would have made so much more sense if the data had been in metric or SI. But no, we have to all be in imperial units for Boeing and anyone else from America*. woot.

If America economically collapses and we actually use units that make sense, I might celebrate....

*I had to redo that coursework at the last second because I did one conversion the wrong way round. Doesn't help that all the other assignments we ever had seemed to use SI or metric. Seems the lecturers hated Imperial, too.

[johnb820]

It's strange. I find myself so comfortable with Celsius because I watch a lot of foreign related things. It is easy for me to think 30C is hot, 20C is room temperature, 10C is chilly, 0C is the freezing mark, and -10C is really cold.

[HappinessNow]

If America economically collapses and we actually use units that make sense, I might celebrate....


If?

[Sef]

F in history. Wikipedia on the Articles of Confederation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation).


EDIT- Also, the Articles of Confederation were ratified in 1777, the current constitution wasn't ratified until 1781.


The Articles of Confederation were not ratified until 1781. The current constitution was ratified in 1788.




The United States is actually older than even that. The colony of Jamestown, Virginia, was started in 1607.

Actually people were living in what is now the US a few thousand years before that.

[lisati]

A few minutes ago my computer calculated the square root of minus 1. Unfortunately the display of the output resulted in a catastrophic failure in x-org (which was fixed by a restart) and the irreversable loss of the source files.

[Grant A.]

The Articles of Confederation were not ratified until 1781. The current constitution was ratified in 1788.


Ah, thank you for correcting me on that.



Actually people were living in what is now the US a few thousand years before that.

Yes, but they aren't the Americans who came from Europe to colonize in the name of England. :-\"


A few minutes ago my computer calculated the square root of minus 1. Unfortunately the display of the output resulted in a catastrophic failure in x-org (which was fixed by a restart) and the irreversable loss of the source files.

http://halshop.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/phpw9jvl0pm.jpg

[NovaAesa]

A few minutes ago my computer calculated the square root of minus 1. Unfortunately the display of the output resulted in a catastrophic failure in x-org (which was fixed by a restart) and the irreversable loss of the source files.
Hehe I did that as well. My computer didn't crash however so I still have the source code :P



from cmath import sqrt
print sqrt(-1)

[starcannon]

The entire planet should agree on this issue; and since the majority already agrees on metric, it seems like a great choice. I am bread, born, and raised, here in the U.S. and the imperial/customary system is in my opinion a national disgrace; just old men clinging to the dark ages imo.

[Mornedhel]

By your reckoning and what's in the (non-authoritative, btw) Wikipedia article, there really shouldn't be anything like absolute zero, since there's "no way to get there". Therefore, Absolute Zero itself is a pointless concept.

However, the science community keeps it around because they perceive value in it, at least as a target theoretical state they can use for measurement and the basis for measurement.

Therefore, if one unachievable temperature can be recognized as legitimate, then why can't an even colder temperature be as well?

*snort* Yeah, zero of anything is impossible, and therefore is pointless. For instance, you can't get probabilities to be equal to zero (there always is the possibility that the universe will spontaneously decide to reconfigure itself so that your event happens to be true, e.g. that cat may yet teleport out of the box after all). Therefore probabilities of zero are pointless. Therefore, you can have probabilities lower than zero ! They're so improbable, they will actually unhappen!

Nice troll.

By the way, temperatures lower than absolute zero exist, but they're not actually colder (which is, as correctly stated before, impossible -- you don't get to move less than when you're immobile.) Rather, systems with a negative temperature are defined as systems from which heat will always flow to systems with a positive temperature. So they're hotter than any hot system. Yeah, it's weird.

[t0p]

But even then, that's not much to memorize, compared to the many deviations of different lengths in the metric system. Millimeter, Centimeter, Meter, Kilometer, etc.

"milli..." means thousandth.
"centi..." means hundredth.
"kilo..." means thousand.
etc.

And those prefixes are used consistently throughout the metric system. No memorizing necessary. At least, no more memorizing than is required in order to count. (You don't really need to memorize anything to know that 156 is followed by 157 do you?)

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units):


Both systems [the UK's Imperial and the USA's Customary] derive from the evolution of local units over the centuries, as a result of standardization efforts in England; the local units themselves mostly trace back to Roman and Anglo-Saxon units.

So much for consistency, eh?




Fahrenheit is a broader scale than Celsius, in terms of integer numbers. I absolutely hate division using floating numbers.


What's so tough about division of decimals? 1000/0.1 is the same as 10000/1. Easy-peasy.



The European Union recently gave up on trying to make Great Britain use the Metric system. Those stubborn Brits and their Imperial System. :P


Not true. Here in the UK we have been buying stuff in kilograms, litres, etc, for many years. Retailers have to sell their goods using metric measurements.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units):


The U.S. is the only industrialized nation that does not mainly use the metric system in its commercial and standards activities

The only imperial measurement I can think of that is used officially in the UK is the mile. Which is a bit odd, but there you go.

Everything else is metric. Like the rest of Europe.



People just use what they are accustomed to, overall. If you forced everyone in the United States to use metric in public, they'd still probably be referring to things in "feet" and "inches" in private and in general conversations. Some people in the U.K. and Canada still use inches as a universal measurement, despite Metric being the official system.

Yes, there is an unofficial adherence to some imperial measurements. But I believe that's dying out. For instance, older people tend to talk about fahrenheit, but folk my age and younger use celsius. TV weathermen tell us tomorrow's predicted temperature in celsius. They may add as an aside "That's x Fahrenheit," but the numbers on the map are celsius.

[zekopeko]

@MikeTheC

Here is a nice little article on absolute temperature (this Google thing really is convenient): http://news.softpedia.com/news/What-Happens-Below-Absolute-Zero-57575.shtml

You will notice that an absolute zero is a concept from physics. Just because math goes from -infinity to +infinity doesn't mean that the physical reality also has to. So NO, you can't go below absolute zero.

And on the subject of Metric vs Imperial; USA please enter the 21th century.
95% of the world uses metric and it's working quite nicely for us.

[lukjad]

Imperial for me, thanks.

[AndyCee]

Metric, simply because it's what I was taught.

Going from imperial to metric couldn't be nearly as confusing as going from metric to imperial. Has any country ever gone "back" to imperial?

For the record, our (Austrailian) rulers often come with inches on the other side, for whatever reason that is.

Fahrenheit is a broader scale than Celsius, in terms of integer numbers. I absolutely hate division using floating numbers.

But you don't mind with inches?

[ukripper]

Metric & Celsius

[Wharf Rat]

Consistency is great, but it doesn't take much to memorize a few simple conversions.

But even then, that's not much to memorize, compared to the many deviations of different lengths in the metric system. Millimeter, Centimeter, Meter, Kilometer, etc. I will admit that the Metric system is more accurate, in this respect.


I doubt the United States will ever leave the Customary system.

People just use what they are accustomed to, overall. If you forced everyone in the United States to use metric in public, they'd still probably be referring to things in "feet" and "inches" in private and in general conversations. Some people in the U.K. and Canada still use inches as a universal measurement, despite Metric being the official system.

Grant,
I don't really know what you are talking about. "Customary" - is not a system of measurement. U.S. uses a modified Imperial system. Canadians,(mostly in the west) use the US system because they get a lot of goods from us. And, they were "metrisized" a number of years ago. Many adults still use the US system.

I am in the marine business. We use Knots, Fathoms, and Shots. As well as inches/feet/yards, miles, Tons and Gallons (all Imperial). AND, we use Tonnes, Cubes (Cubic Meters), Liters, Meters, Kilograms, and Millimeters. I have to jump between all measurements at any given time -- sometimes without the aid of a proper designator. A LOT of mistakes happen!

If you are trying to convert between US and SI on each unit, better carry a cheat sheet or have a good calculator. Once I discovered that just using SI for the base measure and skipping the conversion process worked then I found life to be MUCH better.

Grant, learn to visualize things like a Centimeter, Meter, Liter. Once you have these things fixed in your mind, conversions are as easy as counting money.

I still have trouble visualizing certain SI units, but the more I work with them, the better I get.

Good luck with your conversions.

[bryonak]

It's surprising to see how much ignorance (not stupididy ;)) about physics there is still around.
Since this is my field of study, I'll sum up a bit even though all the correct answers have been given already.

There is no "meaningful" temperature below absolute zero.
Mornedhel's probability analogy is correct. Temperature is defined as the inner kinetic ("moving") energy of an object, and in fact you cannot move "less" than not moving at all.
We can't achieve this temperature practically for the same reason we cannot achieve absolute vacuum... there will always be some particles floating around, we can just remove them to about 1 µPa if I remember correctly.

Speaking of measures... the metric system indeed only has a few standard units (gram, meter, second, ampere, candela, ...) plus a set of modifiers:

exa (E) 10¹⁸
peta (P) 10¹⁵
tera (T) 10¹²
giga (G) 10⁹
mega (M) 10⁶
kilo (k) 10³
hecto (h) 10²
deca (da) 10
deci (d) 10⁻¹
centi (c) 10⁻²
milli (m) 10⁻³
micro (µ) 10⁻⁶
nano (n) 10⁻⁹
pico (p) 10⁻¹²
femto (f) 10⁻¹⁵
atto (a) 10⁻¹⁸

It has even bigger/smaller prefixes, but these are those I know by heart.
Most are used only in specific cases, and while decimeters or hectometers are rarely seen, they are perfectly valid measures.

A practical example of this system we all are quite familiar with are bytes ;)
(let's look over the 1000->1024 mess)


Personally I'm for metric (geographic background) and kelvin (scientific background).

[RiceMonster]

There is no "meaningful" temperature below absolute zero.
Mornedhel's probability analogy is correct. Temperature is defined as the inner kinetic ("moving") energy of an object, and in fact you cannot move "less" than not moving at all.

I'm suprised nobody pointed that out earlier. I mean, I don't have any education in science beyond highschool and even I know that.

[Sockerdrickan]

I like Celsius and metric, but. I find it weird the sun can be xxxx C warm but there is nothing that can be as cold as xxx C cold... lol

[jomiolto]

Just out of curiosity: how would you express really small (or really large) quantities in the Imperial system? For example, modern processors use 45 nanometer manufacturing process and that is easily expresses with the SI prefixes, but how would you express that with the Imperial system? Surely there must be some other way than using fractions of an inch? :confused:

[jomiolto]

The entire planet should agree on this issue; and since the majority already agrees on metric, it seems like a great choice. I am bread, born, and raised, here in the U.S. and the imperial/customary system is in my opinion a national disgrace; just old men clinging to the dark ages imo.

While you're at it, can you also move to the ISO 216 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_216) paper size standard, so I don't have to deal with programs defaulting to these weird "letter" sized pages ;)

[oxf]

Not true. Here in the UK we have been buying stuff in kilograms, litres, etc, for many years. Retailers have to sell their goods using metric measurements.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units):



The only imperial measurement I can think of that is used officially in the UK is the mile. Which is a bit odd, but there you go.

Everything else is metric. Like the rest of Europe.



Yes, there is an unofficial adherence to some imperial measurements. But I believe that's dying out. For instance, older people tend to talk about fahrenheit, but folk my age and younger use celsius. TV weathermen tell us tomorrow's predicted temperature in celsius. They may add as an aside "That's x Fahrenheit," but the numbers on the map are celsius.

Yes I agree. The use of the mile is the only vestige of imperial units that remain in the UK and its beyond me why the Gov doesn't simply change it and let people cope. Most would very quickly. Indeed an embaressment.

Whats interesting is that while people might think in term of XX miles from point A to B, the same person uses Metres in other aspects of life Metric is all I've ever been educated in or have known. Even my dad in his 70's uses mainly metric.

The issue of certain people within the UK who refuse to embrace it is interesting. They are only a tiny minority and I believe it has nothing to with measurement as such and more to do with identity or a rejection of the EU or internationalism. And its not just the elderly there are some younger people who have clearly been educated in metric who do this. But as I said its a very small minority

Use whatever you like and are comfortable with but personally I couldn't imagine existing gettting by in mutiple countries in non metric units. Except when I'm in the US of course when the weather person says "highs in the 80's" and a little converter in my head stars whiring:grin:

[Chilli Bob]

I cannot understand how anyone is still using imperial units in 2009, let alone whole countries. Actually, a quick google search show that the only countries that haven't officially adopted SI units are Liberia, Myanmar and, yup, The USA. Can you make a conection between those three?

SI or die, says I!

(Now my guilty confession - I still think of air preassure in psi, I just can't get my head around kPa. :oops:) Please don't tell anyone. :-$

[chucky chuckaluck]

the good ole 'merican one, of course.

brit: "her health is in shambles! she weighs nearly 15 stone!"

'merican: "how big's this stone?"

[bossyandrew]

i like Imperial ,but why so little people like it???
:confused::(

[RiceMonster]

i like Imperial ,but why so little people like it???
:confused::(

Read the thread.

[Elfy]

the good ole 'merican one, of course.

brit: "her health is in shambles! she weighs nearly 15 stone!"

'merican: "how big's this stone?"

'bout yay big of course ... ;)

[hessiess]

Mostly metric (UK).

[MikeTheC]

While I can certainly understand the logic and rationale behind the metric system and the disconcertion of those in other countries regarding use of the Imperial system, there's scarce little point for a typical average American to bother learning the Metric System. Yes, I'll totally grant that this is a "chicken or the egg" scenario. However, as a practical matter, let's say I went to my local supermarket and asked for, I dunno, 75 grams of turkey. They wouldn't have *any* idea what I was talking about, and would be completely unable to produce a saleable product. The same thing would be true if I went to my local coffee store and asked for 10 kilograms of coffee. What size bag would they use? What would they charge? What's the price per kilo? Who knows?

It's not that we as human beings *couldn't* use the system. It's just that as individuals we need everyone else around us to be on the same page as us, or otherwise we have no capability of functioning. Why don't you think -- on an equivalent basis -- society the world over converts to Dvorak? Businesses would if all the employees could use it, and the people who are the employees could use it if they had been taught that, and they would have been taught that if businesses actually used it... and on and on.

I also don't get why people seem to think that the metric system is any more "precise" than the Imperial system. Take an object and measure it. It can be described equally well in Metric or Imperial.

[Mornedhel]

While I can certainly understand the logic and rationale behind the metric system and the disconcertion of those in other countries regarding use of the Imperial system, there's scarce little point for a typical average American to bother learning the Metric System. Yes, I'll totally grant that this is a "chicken or the egg" scenario. However, as a practical matter, let's say I went to my local supermarket and asked for, I dunno, 75 grams of turkey. They wouldn't have *any* idea what I was talking about, and would be completely unable to produce a saleable product. The same thing would be true if I went to my local coffee store and asked for 10 kilograms of coffee. What size bag would they use? What would they charge? What's the price per kilo? Who knows?

Other countries have been able to switch units. The Euro zone changed their currency. (With very weird conversion rates, I might add : 1€ == 6.55957 FF, for instance.) People successfully adapted.


It's not that we as human beings *couldn't* use the system. It's just that as individuals we need everyone else around us to be on the same page as us, or otherwise we have no capability of functioning. Why don't you think -- on an equivalent basis -- society the world over converts to Dvorak? Businesses would if all the employees could use it, and the people who are the employees could use it if they had been taught that, and they would have been taught that if businesses actually used it... and on and on.

I don't think that's a good analogy... Dvorak isn't a standard. Each locale has its own Dvorak layout, or so it seems. Moreover, it's not like having some people use Dvorak and some other use their local layout mean they won't be able to communicate. Businesses in different countries with different layouts talk to each other fine, without conversions.


I also don't get why people seem to think that the metric system is any more "precise" than the Imperial system. Take an object and measure it. It can be described equally well in Metric or Imperial.

I don't think anyone said it was more precise, rather that it was easier to do intuitive calculations with a purely decimal-based system. Yes, the precision is the same in both systems since units do not impact precision at all. But calculations are easier to do.

[oxf]

While I can certainly understand the logic and rationale behind the metric system and the disconcertion of those in other countries regarding use of the Imperial system, there's scarce little point for a typical average American to bother learning the Metric System. Yes, I'll totally grant that this is a "chicken or the egg" scenario. However, as a practical matter, let's say I went to my local supermarket and asked for, I dunno, 75 grams of turkey. They wouldn't have *any* idea what I was talking about, and would be completely unable to produce a saleable product. The same thing would be true if I went to my local coffee store and asked for 10 kilograms of coffee. What size bag would they use? What would they charge? What's the price per kilo? Who knows?
l.

If you wanted 10kg's of coffee I'd say you'd need 2 good sized shoping bags:grin:

But why are a few things in the US sold in metric anyway? bottles of wine 750ml, liqour 750ml or (my fave) 1.75L plastic. soft drinks 1Litre. Hmm maybe its just booze that is?

[MikeTheC]

They're not, actually the only thing sold in metric quantities here in the U.S. Are illegal drugs.

[Grant A.]

Not true. Here in the UK we have been buying stuff in kilograms, litres, etc, for many years. Retailers have to sell their goods using metric measurements.

False

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6988521.stm



European Union commissioners have ruled that Britain can carry on using imperial measurements such as pints, pounds and miles.

Europe's Industry Commissioner Gunter Verheugen said: "There is not now and never will be any requirement to drop imperial measurements."



Grant,
I don't really know what you are talking about. "Customary" - is not a system of measurement. U.S. uses a modified Imperial system.

The Customary system is infact its own system of measurement. It and Imperial are only similar because they both diverged from the original English units.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customary_system#Imperial_and_U.S._customary_units



Grant, learn to visualize things like a Centimeter, Meter, Liter. Once you have these things fixed in your mind, conversions are as easy as counting money.

There's no point to conversions, because no one here would know what I'm talking about.

Me: "It's 30 degrees out here today."
Friend: "No it's not."

[Mornedhel]

Or:


You: "It's 86 degrees out here today."
Your european friend: "No it's not."

[Grant A.]

Or:

Because I totally live in Europe. Tons of European immigrants hop the Atlantic ocean to come right into Texas. You've nailed it right on the head. How did you know? :roll:

[Mornedhel]

Because I totally live in Europe. Tons of European immigrants hop the Atlantic ocean to come right into Texas. You've nailed it right on the head. How did you know? :roll:

Ah, I guess if you never ever want to interact with anyone outside of the US, you can keep using imperial units, then.

If it were Texas using a unit system different from everyone else's, would you still talk like that ?

[Grant A.]

Ah, I guess if you never ever want to interact with anyone outside of the US, you can keep using imperial units, then.


Since when is there a requirement of knowing metric to talk to other people outside of the U.S.? If they want to know what temperature I'm talking about, or what measurement I'm talking about, they're well within their rights to use a conversion chart.



If it were Texas using a unit system different from everyone else's, would you still talk like that ?

Only if it had been in place since the Republic of Texas', and then the State of Texas', founding.

[Mornedhel]

Since when is there a requirement of knowing metric to talk to other people outside of the U.S.? If they want to know what temperature I'm talking about, or what measurement I'm talking about, they're well within their rights to use a conversion chart.

But it's the same problem as you talking in SI units to your Texan friend who uses customary/imperial units. If it doesn't pose a problem that your hypothetical non-US friends have to convert, why does it pose a problem for your Texan friend ?


Only if it had been in place since the Republic of Texas', and then the State of Texas', founding.

So it's strictly a matter of customs for you, then. Fine, the rest of the world will carry on using sensible units and measurements.

Nevermind that even the customary system is defined with SI units these days.

[sisco311]

They're not, actually the only thing sold in metric quantities here in the U.S. Are illegal drugs.

... a good start :twisted:

...talking about drugs, i'm pro imperial pints (568 ml), 1 metric pint is only 500 ml, but the best unit for measuring the beer consumption is the Scottish pint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joug).

one beer is not beer... two beers are half beer... three beers are one beer...

[lisati]

... a good start :twisted:

...talking about drugs, i'm pro imperial pints (568 ml), 1 metric pint is only 500 ml, but the best unit for measuring the beer consumption is the Scottish pint.

one beer is not beer... two beers are half beer... three beers are one beer...

Back in the day when we still had glass milk bottles, "imperial" pint bottles were replaced with those of a 600ml capacity when metrics were introduced.

<aside>Does anyone else here remember decimal currency?</aside>

[HappinessNow]

The entire Earth inhabitants should adopt the Kellicam.

Kellicam is a Klingon (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Klingon) unit of length measurement (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Measurements). http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Kellicam

[dragos240]

US customary, and metric.

[oxf]

They're not, actually the only thing sold in metric quantities here in the U.S. Are illegal drugs.

I hate to quible but ...? I've personally purchased those items myself many times. Maybe its region specific?. I only have experience on the west coast and Minnesota. But I was there working this Feb though end of May. I've personally purchased bottles of carbonated soft drink in 1 liter sizes (not litre:)) Wine in 750ml and have seen large 1.75 liter bottles of spirits on shelf many times. Admittidly they are all beverages and food items might be labled 8oz's /metric equiv

[Grant A.]

But it's the same problem as you talking in SI units to your Texan friend who uses customary/imperial units. If it doesn't pose a problem that your hypothetical non-US friends have to convert, why does it pose a problem for your Texan friend ?

I never said that it's unacceptable for a person to convert something into customary so that they can understand what it means. Try finding an average person who knows the formulae for converting metric measurements to customary and vice versa. Even better, try to find someone who can do it in a few seconds, so that the reply is still in the window of the conversation.



So it's strictly a matter of customs for you, then. Fine, the rest of the world will carry on using sensible units and measurements.


300 million people + plus countless road signs + recession + the labels on consumer goods + mission critical equipment = statistical nightmare to convert entirely.

Many people don't seem to realize that the U.S. is so far into things with the customary system, that it would take a ton of money to get things going. Even worse, much mission-critical technology and military equipment is in customary. One person forgetting to convert customary to metric in a single computer file could cause a weapon to hit the wrong target. Imagine how bad it would be if a false conversion made a missile change course from Kabul to Bombay. It would kill tons of innocent people, and for what, because we just had to use metric? The risks of converting mission-critical equipment in a universal conversion is much too high. Not to mention, the entire idea of it is much too costly.



Nevermind that even the customary system is defined with SI units these days.

So what? Many things are pegged to other things. Does that mean that those things should just assimilate into each other? No.

[oxf]

"Not true. Here in the UK we have been buying stuff in kilograms, litres, etc, for many years. Retailers have to sell their goods using metric measurements."


False

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6988521.stm

"

NO very true!

I think you are misunderstanding that story. What its says is that retailers in the the UK could continue to use imperial measurements along side the metric one, IF, they wanted to. However, the primary sale must be weighed in Kg. Thats been the case for a long time. We have been purchasing and using metric for as long as I can remember, trust me I live here!

The market trader cited in that story, "mr metric marter", was convicted for refusing to have scales in metric. He was not convicted, as some press reports implied, for selling in imperial. When inspected by Trading Standards and warned he was out of complience he still flately refused to comply. When this happened certain section of the press, and only a certain section, jumped on the story to push their own agenda.

[blueshiftoverwatch]

Metric is so much better.

Wait how many inches are in a foot? 12.
How many feet in a yard? 3.
How many yards in a mile? .... etc.

How many centimeters in a decimeter? 10.
How many decimeters in a meter? 10.
Meters in a decameter? 10.
Get it yet?

And Kelvin is the best for temperature. When there is no thermal energy at all, it's called zero. That's the true meaning of zero temperature- none of this negative crap...
Pogeymanz's post pretty much reflects my opinion.

[vegetarianshrimp]

Pogeymanz's post pretty much reflects my opinion.
I pretty much agree too., Except for the Kelvin part. I like celcius, because its more useful for me. Its great for cooking too. 0 freezing, 100 boiling. I hate the whole inches foot thing.

[MikeTheC]

I hate to quible but ...?
No, that's quite alright. Oh, and it's quibble, by the way. :p

Actually, you're somewhat correct. I can't speak to wine since I buy so very little of it, but in a sense, everything here is in some kind of metric quantity. However, that's just an additional measurement on the label. Quite probably the only people in this country who use it in any kind of quantity are foreigners (immigrants or vacationers). The exception to this are soda containers (large ones, not cans or bottles) which are usually sold in "2 Liter" sizes. However, for the average American, "2 liter" is not a measurement but a term.

Here's the thing about all of this, though. We use the Imperial (modified, of course) system here in the U.S., and the only ones on this board -- by and large -- who seem to be up in arms about it are people who don't live in the U.S. Now, no offense, but why should I care what someone who isn't even a citizen of my country thinks about what measurement system I use? If I were to go live in, say, France, I'd learn French and I'd learn what their measurement system is†. But I don't live there, so why should I be bothered about it?


† Yes, I know France not only uses the Metric System, they're the ones who invented it.

[mamamia88]

i'm american but i prefer metric it's just more logical to have everything in multiples of 10 the current system we use just seems like someone picked numbers out of thin air

[gnuvistawouldbecool]

Imagine how bad it would be if a false conversion made a missile change course from Kabul to Bombay. It would kill tons of innocent people, and for what, because we just had to use metric? The risks of converting mission-critical equipment in a universal conversion is much too high. Not to mention, the entire idea of it is much too costly.

In fact, while not with a missile, this did happen once with an Airbus in Canada, where it had a half fuel load due to a mix up of units.

[Mornedhel]

In fact, while not with a missile, this did happen once with an Airbus in Canada, where it had a half fuel load due to a mix up of units.

This is probably why everyone should switch to a single standard, and when you put them side by side, the SI is just simpler and more straightforward. There also is the classic example of the NASA probe crashing into Mars because some engineers had used Customary and others had used SI.

Grant A.: Do you mean you think the US should keep using Customary forever ? Because the situation is never going to change by itself ; if some higher body (hint : your government) doesn't make it so, there always will be "too much Customary in business logic to make the switch", to paraphrase your words. History has shown that switching entire nations' worth of business logics was possible even in a relatively short time frame : for instance, the Euro switch, and the infamous Y2K debugging.

(No, this is not a problem of French cultural imperialism on my part ; after all, I am here on an international forum, writing in passable (I think) English. I'm writing my Masters thesis in English as well. I plan to write most of my papers in English first and translate them to French later only if needed.)

(Re. wine : it's probably because wine is still more of a European drink and when it was imported it came in European bottles. Can't speak for soft drinks.)

[Sockerdrickan]

.

[oxf]

No, that's quite alright. Oh, and it's quibble, by the way. :p

Actually, you're somewhat correct. I can't speak to wine since I buy so very little of it, but in a sense, everything here is in some kind of metric quantity. However, that's just an additional measurement on the label. Quite probably the only people in this country who use it in any kind of quantity are foreigners (immigrants or vacationers). The exception to this are soda containers (large ones, not cans or bottles) which are usually sold in "2 Liter" sizes. However, for the average American, "2 liter" is not a measurement but a term.

Here's the thing about all of this, though. We use the Imperial (modified, of course) system here in the U.S., and the only ones on this board -- by and large -- who seem to be up in arms about it are people who don't live in the U.S. Now, no offense, but why should I care what someone who isn't even a citizen of my country thinks about what measurement system I use? If I were to go live in, say, France, I'd learn French and I'd learn what their measurement system is†. But I don't live there, so why should I be bothered about it?


† Yes, I know France not only uses the Metric System, they're the ones who invented it.

I actually agree with you pretty much 100%. I've seen the 2L ones too. Thats much like a pint of beer here. It will probably be always retained as its a cultural measurement. Even if it were to be changed to 500ml or whatever, people would always go out "for a pint" or "a half".

Like you I dont particularly care what the average person in the US uses. I even try to talk in terms of US measurements when I talk to collegues /friends there. I did find it somewhat interesting once in northern MN to look out of the window early one winters morning at the thermometer. It read -42F and as we know the two sclaes cross at -40. In reality it didn't matter what the units were or the value as anything below say 0F is B**** cold!

It is interesting, and I've seen this elsewhere, how hot this units debate gets at times!

[mdsmedia]

No, that's quite alright. Oh, and it's quibble, by the way. :p

Actually, you're somewhat correct. I can't speak to wine since I buy so very little of it, but in a sense, everything here is in some kind of metric quantity. However, that's just an additional measurement on the label. Quite probably the only people in this country who use it in any kind of quantity are foreigners (immigrants or vacationers). The exception to this are soda containers (large ones, not cans or bottles) which are usually sold in "2 Liter" sizes. However, for the average American, "2 liter" is not a measurement but a term.

Here's the thing about all of this, though. We use the Imperial (modified, of course) system here in the U.S., and the only ones on this board -- by and large -- who seem to be up in arms about it are people who don't live in the U.S. Now, no offense, but why should I care what someone who isn't even a citizen of my country thinks about what measurement system I use? If I were to go live in, say, France, I'd learn French and I'd learn what their measurement system is†. But I don't live there, so why should I be bothered about it?


† Yes, I know France not only uses the Metric System, they're the ones who invented it.

Of course, being in the US, living in the US that is, and not in some other part of the world, you don't trade in a global economy or communicate in a global world (heard of the internet?).

[MikeTheC]

Of course, being in the US, living in the US that is, and not in some other part of the world, you don't trade in a global economy or communicate in a global world (heard of the internet?).
Nah, to tell the truth, I'm not hot to trot with "globalism" thank you very much. Well, at least not where jobs, importation, and the so-called "global economy" is concerned.

I don't, in principle, have an issue with the U.S. using the Metric System, but it shouldn't merely be a "monkey see, monkey do" proposition, nor should it be to appease other countries. We should use it *solely* on the basis that it is a worthy successor and on its own intrisic merits. Clearly, our society doesn't (yet) see the value in switching, and it is just not something I really care about in my own life. Inches, feet, ounce and pounds all work just fine for me, and they probably always will. I can only hope some politician "on high" doesn't try and monkey around with things. I can figure out -- as can most of my fellow citizens -- how to function and don't need the government to tell me how to live my life.

[zekopeko]

Nah, to tell the truth, I'm not hot to trot with "globalism" thank you very much. Well, at least not where jobs, importation, and the so-called "global economy" is concerned.

I don't, in principle, have an issue with the U.S. using the Metric System, but it shouldn't merely be a "monkey see, monkey do" proposition, nor should it be to appease other countries. We should use it *solely* on the basis that it is a worthy successor and on its own intrisic merits. Clearly, our society doesn't (yet) see the value in switching, and it is just not something I really care about in my own life. Inches, feet, ounce and pounds all work just fine for me, and they probably always will. I can only hope some politician "on high" doesn't try and monkey around with things. I can figure out -- as can most of my fellow citizens -- how to function and don't need the government to tell me how to live my life.

Lame excuses are lame. I think that it was sufficiently proven in this thread the superiority of the metric system.

[Grant A.]

Lame excuses are lame. I think that it was sufficiently proven in this thread the superiority of the metric system.

There's no need to condescend. ](*,)

I'll use what ever I well please. No one, especially anyone who doesn't even live here, is going to tell me otherwise.

The metric system isn't "superior", both systems work. They both provide a way to calculate measurements. Just because one is easier to remember doesn't mean crap. Hell, we're in the age of computers where we don't even need to do calculations on our own. I don't know about your computer, but mine can handle: (1(5280))12 to give me how many inches are in a mile just fine.

And if you're fine with floating numbers in Celsius, why aren't you fine with floating numbers in Inches? I see a major contradiction on both my part, and your part.

FYI: Anything hugely smaller than an inch is usually imported from the metric system into the customary system. Nanometer, etc.

[lisati]

I wish to express mild bafflement at the term "customary": it can depend on where and when you live. When I was born, the customary currency in NZ was based on "pounds, shiillings and pence", and measurements were "imperial". These days, the currency is "dollars and cents" (changed in 1967) and measurement is supposedly "metric" (changed in the 1970s). I say "supposedly metric" because some people use a mysterious unit of weight called the "cagey" - thankfully there's a 1-to-1 correspondence between the number of cagies and the number of kilogrammes.

There's also a mysterious unit of measurement which I've seen used for measuring distance, speed, weight AND assorted other things: the "kay". Amazing!

[Dullstar]

I like metric. Much easier to remember.

[zekopeko]

There's no need to condescend. ](*,)

I'll use what ever I well please. No one, especially anyone who doesn't even live here, is going to tell me otherwise.

Nobody is saying that you should be force fed metric. It's about standardization. You should be familiar with it from using a computer. Standardization is always good.



The metric system isn't "superior", both systems work. They both provide a way to calculate measurements. Just because one is easier to remember doesn't mean crap. Hell, we're in the age of computers where we don't even need to do calculations on our own.
I would call that superior. Easier and doesn't require a computer for the most part. Metric FTW!


I don't know about your computer, but mine can handle: (1(5280))12 to give me how many inches are in a mile just fine.

I don't need a computer to know how many centimeters are in a kilometer.



And if you're fine with floating numbers in Celsius, why aren't you fine with floating numbers in Inches? I see a major contradiction on both my part, and your part.

I wasn't aware that floating numbers are such a scary thing. Basic division and multiplication are involved. If you have a problem with that then you have a far bigger problem then using metric.



FYI: Anything hugely smaller than an inch is usually imported from the metric system into the customary system. Nanometer, etc.

How many nanometers in a mile? Quick, without a computer.

[RiceMonster]

How many nanometers in a mile? Quick, without a computer.

over 9000

[zekopeko]

over 9000

:lolflag:
nice one!

[thisllub]

Considering that even a gallon is different in the UK and the US it is an absurd system.

I don't think Canadians should complain too much anyway.
-40 degrees is the same in either scale.

[schauerlich]

How many nanometers in a mile? Quick, without a computer.

How many inches in a kilometer? Quick, without a computer.

You're switching systems. I call no fairsies.

[zekopeko]

How many inches in a kilometer? Quick, without a computer.

You're switching systems. I call no fairsies.

Less then 40000.
No computer.
But fair enough. Cross systems fail on my part.
Let me rephrase the question: inches in 23.47 miles?

[schauerlich]

Let me rephrase the question: inches in 23.47 miles?

More than I care to calculate.

[zekopeko]

More than I care to calculate.

Proven my point I would say.

[schauerlich]

Proven my point I would say.

The idea wasn't to disprove your point, it was to be argumentative. Welcome to the internet. :)

[MikeTheC]

How many inches in a kilometer? Quick, without a computer.

You're switching systems. I call no fairsies.

Well, let's see... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10...

Whoops, ran out of fingers. Oh well, never mind.

[Grant A.]

Let me rephrase the question: inches in 23.47 miles?

How many nanometers in 23.47 kilometers?

No using a computer, or any reference material. :P

[schauerlich]

How many nanometers in 23.47 kilometers?

No using a computer, or any reference material. :P

Move the decimal over 12 places.

[Grant A.]

Move the decimal over 12 places.

Good job giving away the answer. :(

My point is that, if you really need to do something in nanometers, then you would already have memorized the conversion. The average Joe will probably never need to find out such a minute measurement in a normal environment. The point is that our system works.

By the way, if you can't figure out (23.47)5280 on a piece of paper, then I feel really sorry for you.

[zekopeko]

Good job giving away the answer. :(

See you only need to deal with orders of magnitude.


My point is that, if you really need to do something in nanometers, then you would already have memorized the conversion. The average Joe will probably never need to find out such a minute measurement in a normal environment. The point is that our system works.

By the way, if you can't figure out (23.47)5280 on a piece of paper, then I feel really sorry for you.

And my point is that the metric is a better and more intuitive system. You don't have a gazillion names for measuring distance. It's prefix + unit. And it's all base 10.

BTW I haven't used a piece of paper to give a good estimate on the number of inches in a kilometer. No computer meant only using your brain, no helping tools needed (like a computer or a piece of paper).

Using a standard that some 6.2 billion people use in their daily life's certainly helps when communicating with them.
USA adopting a metric system would help in this regard. Not to mention prevent losing 100 million dollar space projects.
Here is an interesting bit of info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication#Before_the_metric_system

So even the country that de facto spread the Imperial system is converting to metric while an adoptee like US doesn't even have a law to complement the Imperial(Customary, whateva).
23.47*5280 ~ 124000 (yet again, all in my head, with more practice I could do it to the last digit)

[CarpKing]

American here (not a meddling foreigner). I was raised on Imperial/Customary, but thankfully we learned Metric in school. I'm trying to teach myself to think in Metric now. Temperature works equally well in either, and while inches, feet, miles, etc are confusing I have a pretty good handle on it. Volume has been very easy for me to switch, because I've never been able to remember all the strange measurements involved there. I can't use an American cookbook without a conversion table. mL FTW.

[Grant A.]

And my point is that the metric is a better and more intuitive system. You don't have a gazillion names for measuring distance. It's prefix + unit. And it's all base 10.

Read this quote:



exa (E) 10¹⁸
peta (P) 10¹⁵
tera (T) 10¹²
giga (G) 10⁹
mega (M) 10⁶
kilo (k) 10³
hecto (h) 10²
deca (da) 10
deci (d) 10⁻¹
centi (c) 10⁻²
milli (m) 10⁻³
micro (µ) 10⁻⁶
nano (n) 10⁻⁹
pico (p) 10⁻¹²
femto (f) 10⁻¹⁵
atto (a) 10⁻¹⁸

It has even bigger/smaller prefixes, but these are those I know by heart.

A prefix by another other name is still another damn word that I'd have to memorize

In Customary, we only have these to measure distance:

Inches
Feet
Yards
Miles
Light-years
Parsecs

Shall we compare lists, again?



BTW I haven't used a piece of paper to give a good estimate on the number of inches in a kilometer. No computer meant only using your brain, no helping tools needed (like a computer or a piece of paper).


computer != paper
computer ∈ tool
tool != computer



Using a standard that some 6.2 billion people use in their daily life's certainly helps when communicating with them.


Using a standard that 300 million people use in their daily lives certainly helps when communicating with them.



USA adopting a metric system would help in this regard. Not to mention prevent losing 100 million dollar space projects.

We lost a space project one time, and that was because those scientists didn't even think to use customary in a customary using country.

Using Customary in the United States isn't rocket science.



23.47*5280 ~ 124000 (yet again, all in my head, with more practice I could do it to the last digit)

That's plenty precise enough for the average guy. Hell, 23 miles is precise enough. I don't need a Ph.D to tell you that 23 miles is a long *** way away from my house. There is no need for a more precise measurement in average life. Everyone in the U.S. knows how long a mile is, has it conceptualized, and knows that 23 miles is far away from where they are. Anything else would just be overkill and useless organization. If it works, you should use it. Is there any point in converting kilometers to centimeters? No, because you would have so many centimeters, that it would be a useless conversion. You have a kilometer conceptualized, and that's all you need. Tell me, how many times have you gone up to a street sign, and not been able to find out how far away something is without converting it to a smaller measurement?

Plus, if you're doing mission critical stuff, then use the damn computer in front of you. Don't be stubborn and use your head.



American here (not a meddling foreigner).

The irony of this is that, normally, I hear foreigners complain that the U.S. meddles too much in their affairs! :lolflag:



I'm trying to teach myself to think in Metric now.

Read what I said above.

[Pogeymanz]

But you don't need to memorize all those prefixes.

There are only a hand-full that you'll need. Millimeter, Centimeter, Meter, Kilometer. That's about it.

And it's true that it doesn't matter if you don't need to convert from one unit to the next, but when you do, metric is much easier to do in your head. There is a reason that we are taught the metric system in science classes here in the US: it is more simple.

Of course, I'd like to emphasize again that it really doesn't matter, as long as you're consistent, even though I like metric much better than the others.

[schauerlich]

There are a lot of Americans (myself included) who would be fine switching to the metric system, and some may even prefer it. But there's no reason to go around saying "Man, it's hot today! It must be 40 degrees and we're 20km away from the nearest air conditioning!" because no one around you would understand what you meant without thinking about it for a while. And most people just don't care enough to learn the new system, because they're fine with the old system and everyone else knows what it is, so why should they bother?

[jomiolto]

The SI system is fine when you use the decimal system, but I think the real problem lies in the decimal system itself. We might have ten fingers, but that isn't an excuse to use a system where the base number is only divisible by 2 and 5. Base-60 would be so much nicer from a mathematical point of view and it would have the added benefit of making numbers shorter and thus easier to remember (a cell phone number here has 9 digits, whereas 5 base-60 digits would be enough for almost the same amount of different numbers).

Just think of hours and minutes: half an hour? 30 minutes. Third of an hour? 20 minutes. Quarter of an hour? 15 minutes. Etc. No need for decimal fractions until you reach 1/7th.

[automaton26]

Let's vote on going metric with time (ten months/days/hours/seconds), and even musical notes (ten notes to a decave).

:)

[NovaAesa]

I would support metric time, but not a decave... that would screw up music.

[Giant Speck]

Let's vote on going metric with time (ten months/days/hours/seconds), and even musical notes (ten notes to a decave).

:)


No no no no no no no no no! Leave time units alone!

[jomiolto]

Let's vote on going metric with time (ten months/days/hours/seconds), and even musical notes (ten notes to a decave).

:)

I don't know about music, but the time "issue" would have been easy to solve -- at least for hours/minutes/seconds. They would have just had to define second as being 0.864 times of what it currently is and we'd have 100,000 seconds in a day. Then we could have, say, 10 hours a day, 100 minutes per hour and 100 seconds per minute :)

Oh, and degrees (for measuring angles) can be left as they are, because everyone knows that radian is the only real unit for angles. ;)

(90 degrees you say? That's "pi per two"!)

[MikeTheC]

The problem with decimalizing time is that Earth's orbit and its rate of spin are not constants. The present system also includes a kind of error correction.

In theory, though, decimalized time would be cool.

[automaton26]

second as being 0.864 times of what it currently is

Nice one - should've thought of that!

Anyone want to suggest the best way to metric-ize a year's worth of days then?
Either 10 months of 36 days (scrap weeks) or 36 weeks of 10 days (scrap months) ?
Leaving 5 days compulsory peak-of-summer-holiday !

Although there's no way around the the usual leap year & leap second awkwardness...

[schauerlich]

In theory, though, decimalized time would be cool.

The French tried it during the Revolution, and like most French things, it didn't work too well. (Sorry HymnToLife).

[JohnnySage50307]

In my experience, the system of measurements I follow depends on what I'm measuring. I'm a computer engineer--most of my family is not. Traditionally in the U.S., we use "standard" measurements (i.e. mile, farenheit, etc.) so when talking to my family, I use those measurements. When working in the lab, we typically use metric and scientific measurements.

All in all, some people try to argue that "the math" is easier in some system or another, when in truth people ought to be more concerned with making sure everyone around them understands their meaning. I understand that 20degC is room temperature, but when talking to my fiance, unless if I say 70degF, she won't have a clue what I'm talking about!

[zekopeko]

A prefix by another other name is still another damn word that I'd have to memorize

In Customary, we only have these to measure distance:

Inches
Feet
Yards
Miles
Light-years
Parsecs

Shall we compare lists, again?

*sigh*

You obviously missed my point. In SI there is only meter to measure distance. The prefixes are shared by ALL units because they represent orders of magnitude.
So that "looooooooooooong" list is applied when talking about volume,distance,power etc. You have 6 words compared to 1 all talking about the same thing.




computer != paper
computer ∈ tool
tool != computer


Computer is a tool. So is paper.



Using a standard that 300 million people use in their daily lives certainly helps when communicating with them.

You do leave your country right? You do talk to non-American people?

[SuperSonic4]

I like using the SI units. These are largely the same as metric but with some differences

[hardyn]

As Canadians live so close the united states we have to comfortable with both:

gasoline - litres (yes, re)
fruit - pounds
deli meat - gams
distance/speed - kilometers
weight(bathroom scale) - pounds
height(common language) - feet/inches
weight(commercial) - pounds (changing to kg)
height(commercial) - metres
building materials - inches (except re-bar -- mm)
temperature - Celsius (unless you were born in the 50s/60s -- Fahrenheit)
fluids - litres
cosmetics etc - grams

We're just a little messed up up here :)




Unfortunately, all I know at the moment is imperial. I hope to move to Canada one day, so maybe Ill start learning metric.

[Jago6060]

I'm all for metric and Celsius. Its kind of surprising that the most widely used number system wasn't metric in the first place. Our number system is base ten, so it makes sense that our measurement system is also base ten. As for the argument for Celsius, its mostly because 0 is the freezing point, just makes sense. I've never really known much about Kelvin but as stated in an earlier post, 0 is when there is no thermal heat, which also makes sense. I think Celsius would be the best to implement because using Kelvin would be like using farenheit.

Ex:
<imaginary_dialogue>

-Celsius:"Well water freezes at 0 degrees and boils at 100 on my scale, how about you Kelvin?"
-Kelvin:"Water freezes at 273.15 degrees on my scale, and boils at 373.15"

</imaginary_dialogue>

[MikeTheC]

I can't believe there's so many teens on this board who've nothing better to do than argue over measurement systems. Grow up already.

The U.S. always has used -- and may indeed always continue to -- what I have always called the English Measurement System. If the rest of the world wants to use something else, then good for them. But just endlessly "whipping them out to compare" is just childish.

Don't you kids have anything better to do with your time, like help others on UF, or go outside and enjoy some fresh air?

[schauerlich]

I can't believe there's so many teens on this board who've nothing better to do than argue over measurement systems. Grow up already.

Those crazy hooligans with their alternate measuring systems...

[thisllub]

I understand that 20degC is room temperature, but when talking to my fiance, unless if I say 70degF, she won't have a clue what I'm talking about!

Just tell her she is hot and she will understand.

[thisllub]

The SI system is fine when you use the decimal system, but I think the real problem lies in the decimal system itself. We might have ten fingers, but that isn't an excuse to use a system where the base number is only divisible by 2 and 5. Base-60 would be so much nicer from a mathematical point of view and it would have the added benefit of making numbers shorter and thus easier to remember (a cell phone number here has 9 digits, whereas 5 base-60 digits would be enough for almost the same amount of different numbers).

Just think of hours and minutes: half an hour? 30 minutes. Third of an hour? 20 minutes. Quarter of an hour? 15 minutes. Etc. No need for decimal fractions until you reach 1/7th.

Most kids these days can't count past 10 how are you going to teach them 60 digits?

I think it has to be a power of 2 anyway which makes hex a logical choice.

[zekopeko]

I can't believe there's so many teens on this board who've nothing better to do than argue over measurement systems. Grow up already.

Why are you arguing with teens then if "we" are beyond "salvation"?
Also considering our perception of time "growing up" is a given.

[zekopeko]

Most kids these days can't count past 10 how are you going to teach them 60 digits?

Got to love those "computers".

[lisati]

All in all, some people try to argue that "the math" is easier in some system or another, when in truth people ought to be more concerned with making sure everyone around them understands their meaning. I understand that 20degC is room temperature, but when talking to my fiance, unless if I say 70degF, she won't have a clue what I'm talking about!
Mrs Lisati would probably get annoyed and/or baffled if I started talking Farenheit and Celsius, and even more annoyed/baffled with Centigrade and/or Kelvin. As thisllub has suggested, talking about "hot" and "cold" would make more sense.


American here (not a meddling foreigner).
Where I live, Americans are foreigners. But then again do we want to get picky about semantics? (/me gets distracted by thought about how the Samoan-English dictionary I have somewhere gives "foreigner" as the meaning of the word "Pala(n)gi", yet many of the Polynesian people I know use the word to refer to "white man")

[jomiolto]

Most kids these days can't count past 10 how are you going to teach them 60 digits?

I don't think it would be that difficult. The times table would be much bigger problem, though. With 10x10 table, there are only about 36 multiplications you need to learn (symmetry and multiplying with 1/10 removed), but with a 60x60 table you'd have to learn about 1711 multiplications! Fortunately that could be reduced quite a bit with some tricks, but it would still require significantly more effort to learn than 10x10 table...

[Superkoop]

I honestly would love it if the US gave up the stupid Imperial System, it's totally nonsensical in terms of memorizing all the different conversions. I have been trying for the past couple years to use the Metric System as much as possible, but it doesn't work when no one else is fluent in it... People ask the temperature, and I tell them it's 18C outside and I get an exasperated look. :(