Dumb or Misinformed? You Decide.

[raronson]

While on a separate thread (Which One is the "Any" Key? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1221045)) Zenze and ericmc783 shared a video where people were asked if they knew what a "browser" was. While it's pretty amusing, it's also makes me wonder what went wrong? Most of these people seem fairly bright (to be kind) or of otherwise average intelligence. Yet just about everyone gets it wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MwTvtyrUQ

This makes me wonder about a few things: 1) Is computer-illiteracy (as it's popularly called) a special case, i.e., otherwise bright people can't understand this subject in particular? 2) Is the problem more general, i.e., are people really so dumbed down in the larger sense? And 3) If the answer to 1 or 2 is 'yes', then what's the cause, and how do we fix it?

Before the reponses start coming in, my own idea that is education of the modern world is being handled by advertising agencies--hardly a critical or reliable source of information. Also, the advent of the World Wide Web, which brought computing to the masses, is only a 20 year old phenomenon. Most people alive right now did not learn about the WWW or modern computing in school. But does this relative ignorance extend to all areas, or is computing just a special case? Moreover, what do we do about it--or is it even important?

[dmizer]

The responses to that video should come as no surprise to anyone who's spent any time at all in the telephone help desk trenches.

Yes, people really are that uninformed regarding computers, and no ... there's not really anything we can do about it. Mostly because people don't want to know, and/or don't care.

[philcamlin]

The responses to that video should come as no surprise to anyone who's spent any time at all in the telephone help desk trenches.

Yes, people really are that uninformed regarding computers, and no ... there's not really anything we can do about it. Mostly because people don't want to know, and/or don't care.
100% true

mind you my grandpa thought a browser was a dog :confused:

[bacil]

i think it has lots to do with the way general population see computers.

As magic blackboxes that only couple of ppl understand, but those days are long gone. And i guess computer literacy is another thing that will (or is) appear in curriculum generally not only on technical colleges etc.

I myself spend loads of time consulting really small niche of IT market (small in number of companies and ppl involved not in money spent), but some of my friends and or my parents still think that all i do are PC :-) which can not be furteher from truth.

[Viva]

They are ignorant and ignorance is not a crime. Its the duty of the knowledgeable persons in any particular field to educate them.

[bodhi.zazen]

I think disinterested would be a better label .

Both "dumb" and "misinformed" evoke negative emotional responses and are unlikely to encourage people to change their behavior and neither "dumb" or "misinformed" are really accurate.

If you wish to change behavior and "fix" this "problem" then first start with your message.

Want to practice safe browsing ? Try this ... Here's why ...

[Zenze]

Unfortunatly I'm not sure that there is much that done in any proactive sort of way. Using a modern desktop is pretty self explanatory in most ways. However, I think that the problem lies in how society (at least here in the US) views computers. Most people seems to view them as some sort of impossible to understand mystery box that you would have to dedicate all your time to in order to understand. As Shibblet said in the 'Which is the "Any" Key' thread I think that people have a mental block about it. Before they even try to do something or have something explained they already assume that it will be impossible to understand.

Just as a side note I think that knowing anything about computers automatically makes you a geek/nerd to some people and they don't want to fall into that category. It almost seems more trendy to lack a understanding of computer.

But these are just guesses. I don't really know because I can't relate to their viewpoint of a computer, as I have been using computers all my life.

[Marlonsm]

Most people just see computers as something too hard to understand, so they don't even try.

After seeing that thread, I found this article: http://www.vivaolinux.com.br/artigo/O-Linux-esta-pronto-para-desktop-mas-nao-esta-pronto-para-usuario-contaminado/, it's in Portuguese, tho. It says that most people just don't want to change, and that they just see Linux as a free version of Windows, so when they can't find the "Start" button or they can't run and application for Windows, they blame Linux and pay someone to install Windows for them, and usually it's a pirate copy of Windows.
And some distros that come preinstalled with computers just make it worse, as they do look like Windows (one very popular here is Satux Linux) the average Joe will think it IS just like Windows, but it's actually a poorly made distribution.

[Sealbhach]

It's their lack of curiosity I find hard to understand and it worries me that... if they know this little about the internet/computers then what else do they know jacksh*t about?

.

[tjwoosta]

I would say dumb, like sheep.

[kk0sse54]

It's their lack of curiosity I find hard to understand and it worries me that... if they know this little about the internet/computers then what else do they know jacksh*t about?

.

Linux users make it sound like computers are the only thing in life. Some people like to have lives, like to do other things than just sit inside in front of a computer all day. Maybe that was a little harsh but considering the amount of time that some linux users spend inside I bet there's a lot of stuff they don't know jacksh!t about in real life or just don't care about.

Sure most people should know what a browser is and if they don't it's unintentional ignorance but I don't think it's lack of curiosity and if it was who cares? Now if it was something like pointing to the USA on a map then that would be something completely different... :)

[decoherence]

A computer is a tool. A certain minimum level of understanding is required to use any tool. In years past, making use of the computer tool required the user to have at least a reasonable understanding of what the computer was actually doing.

With improvements in automation and more user-centric interface design, users today often only need to know how to interface with the computer well enough to complete their (often quite limited) tasks. Apple and Microsoft have gone to great lengths to make it this way, and how successful they've been depends on what you're talking about.

For instance, it's great that people no longer need to know how to configure their PPP script and sit through a minute of unholy shrieks and squawks to connect to the internet. Unfortunately, now that the internet is 'always on' people no longer have to distinguish between opening up a web browser and going online.

The main detrimental effect this is having today is ignorance of security. Proper security practices can not be explained or understood without some basic understanding of how a computer, and particularly a network, actually works. Not "how you use it" but "how it works."

Come to think of it, 'how to use it' vs. 'how it works' is another thing a lot of people don't distinguish, which makes explaining things even more challenging.

There's nothing we can do about it but educate those who are willing and slog through until computers are good enough that we really DON'T have to know anything about them in order to use them safely. That would be after Windows dies and all the hardware manufacturers have released linux drivers ;)

(and of course, the computers will take over the world six months after that)

[Tipped OuT]

If you don't know the inner workings of an automobile, does that make you dumb? No.

Same goes for anything else, everybody has something they know a lot about. Computers, music, cars, boats, etc.

Just because you know a lot about computers, doesn't make you a genius.

[raronson]

(and of course, the computers will take over the world six months after that)

2012 from what I hear in one thread :)

[aysiu]

As someone who has taken a long road from computer apathy to basic computer literacy (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/why-i-finally-embraced-computer-literacy/), I am confused as to why otherwise educated people do not care about getting to know computers better.

Sure, if you're a truck driver or a textile factory worker, maybe computers are just peripherals in your life. Great. You're forgiven for not caring to get to know computers.

But if you're an office worker, and you're staring at a computer screen at work for 8-10 hours a day and then staring at your laptop, netbook, or smartphone screen for a few more hours while not at work... shouldn't you know at least a little bit about how it works? I think you should.

Now if someone doesn't know a browser is called a browser, that's okay. That's just a lack of terminology. But there should be a fundamental understanding that the blue e or the orange fox around the blue globe is a program that allows you to access webpages and that program can be switched out for other programs if you so desire (the big red o or the multi-colored bits surrounding a small black circle). I don't think most self-proclaimed computer illiterates know that there are programs that run on an operating system that interfaces with the hardware using drivers. They don't have to know the term operating system, but they should understand the basic concept, and they should know enough to fix basic computer problems themselves.

When I had a car, if the gas was low, I filled it up. If I was getting low on windshield wiper fluid, I'd add more. I knew how to drive it to maximize gas mileage and to minimize wear on my transmission. That's the kind of stuff a driver should know. If my window needs replacing or if the car engine won't turn over, it's understandable if I want to pay someone to fix that stuff for me.

But people are paying Geek Squad to install software for them. That's ridiculous! Really? I can understand if you don't want to replace the motherboard yourself, but you can't even stick a CD in the CD drive and click through a few menus?

With computers, the illiteracy-to-use ratio is beyond anything I've seen in other aspects of life.

[raronson]

As someone who has taken a long road from computer apathy to basic computer literacy (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/why-i-finally-embraced-computer-literacy/), I am confused as to why otherwise educated people do not care about getting to know computers better.

Sure, if you're a truck driver or a textile factory worker, maybe computers are just peripherals in your life. Great. You're forgiven for not caring to get to know computers.

But if you're an office worker, and you're staring at a computer screen at work for 8-10 hours a day and then staring at your laptop, netbook, or smartphone screen for a few more hours while not at work... shouldn't you know at least a little bit about how it works? I think you should.

Now if someone doesn't know a browser is called a browser, that's okay. That's just a lack of terminology. But there should be a fundamental understanding that the blue e or the orange fox around the blue globe is a program that allows you to access webpages and that program can be switched out for other programs if you so desire (the big red o or the multi-colored bits surrounding a small black circle). I don't think most self-proclaimed computer illiterates know that there are programs that run on an operating system that interfaces with the hardware using drivers. They don't have to know the term operating system, but they should understand the basic concept, and they should know enough to fix basic computer problems themselves.

When I had a car, if the gas was low, I filled it up. If I was getting low on windshield wiper fluid, I'd add more. I knew how to drive it to maximize gas mileage and to minimize wear on my transmission. That's the kind of stuff a driver should know. If my window needs replacing or if the car engine won't turn over, it's understandable if I want to pay someone to fix that stuff for me.

But people are paying Geek Squad to install software for them. That's ridiculous! Really? I can understand if you don't want to replace the motherboard yourself, but you can't even stick a CD in the CD drive and click through a few menus?

With computers, the illiteracy-to-use ratio is beyond anything I've seen in other aspects of life.

Well put on all points. Computing may serve as a focal point which typifies a larger problem. Why do I care about any of this? I hate to see people get suckered or obliviously sign away freedoms that they don't know they possess.

[MaxIBoy]

The responses to that video should come as no surprise to anyone who's spent any time at all in the telephone help desk trenches.

Yes, people really are that uninformed regarding computers, and no ... there's not really anything we can do about it. Mostly because people don't want to know, and/or don't care."Hey guys, I just spent $800 on a a computer, and I neither know nor want to know how to use it."






A computer is a tool. A certain minimum level of understanding is required to use any tool. In years past, making use of the computer tool required the user to have at least a reasonable understanding of what the computer was actually doing.

With improvements in automation and more user-centric interface design, users today often only need to know how to interface with the computer well enough to complete their (often quite limited) tasks. Apple and Microsoft have gone to great lengths to make it this way, and how successful they've been depends on what you're talking about.
Oh please. You want "quite limited?" Run on home and play with your VCR/abacus.

(Decoherence, I agree with the spirit of your post, I just wanted to address that particular point.)

[KiwiNZ]

If you don't know the inner workings of an automobile, does that make you dumb? No.

Same goes for anything else, everybody has something they know a lot about. Computers, music, cars, boats, etc.

Just because you know a lot about computers, doesn't make you a genius.

Well said.

[Xzallion]

If you don't know the inner workings of an automobile, does that make you dumb? No.

Same goes for anything else, everybody has something they know a lot about. Computers, music, cars, boats, etc.

Just because you know a lot about computers, doesn't make you a genius.

True, but to operate a car one must know how to maintain it. They have to know either how to change the oil or where to take it to change the oil. They know how to refill the gas, check radiator fluid etc, or can fairly easily tell when something is acting funny and know where to take it to.

With computers, most people have no idea how to maintain them. Do they need a firewall? Antivirus software? What about anti-spyware? They don't know what they need, and seem to expect friends/family/kid down the street to fix their magic box when it brakes for free or dirt cheap. Most don't even know where a computer repair shop would be, so once a virus or hardware failure causes the computer to cease functioning they don't know what to do other than buy another one. To them computers have become expensive short-lived replaceable appliances, when a little knowledge would keep it running.

I don't want them to know a lot about computers. I don't even care if they can't work in a CLI. I just want people to know the basic terminology, and to start finding either repair shops or going the extra step and learning to repair it themselves.

[aysiu]

If you don't know the inner workings of an automobile, does that make you dumb? No.

Same goes for anything else, everybody has something they know a lot about. Computers, music, cars, boats, etc.

Just because you know a lot about computers, doesn't make you a genius. Here's my rebuttal:
"The limitations of car-computer analogies" (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-limitations-of-car-computer-analogies/)

[Tipped OuT]

True, but to operate a car one must know how to maintain it. They have to know either how to change the oil or where to take it to change the oil. They know how to refill the gas, check radiator fluid etc, or can fairly easily tell when something is acting funny and know where to take it to.

With computers, most people have no idea how to maintain them. Do they need a firewall? Antivirus software? What about anti-spyware? They don't know what they need, and seem to expect friends/family/kid down the street to fix their magic box when it brakes for free or dirt cheap. Most don't even know where a computer repair shop would be, so once a virus or hardware failure causes the computer to cease functioning they don't know what to do other than buy another one. To them computers have become expensive short-lived replaceable appliances, when a little knowledge would keep it running.

I don't want them to know a lot about computers. I don't even care if they can't work in a CLI. I just want people to know the basic terminology, and to start finding either repair shops or going the extra step and learning to repair it themselves.

Here's my rebuttal:
"The limitations of car-computer analogies" (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/the-limitations-of-car-computer-analogies/)


I didn't only mention a car. It goes for anything else. And believe it or not, some people don't know anything about there car, they just know how to get behind the steering wheel, buckle up and punch the gas. Same goes for computers, some people just know how to point and click there way through. Nothing more. So, does that make them idiots? I think not.

Don't think so hard guys.

[raronson]

Well said.

Well that *is* a good sentiment, and in the other thread "Which One is the "Any" Key?", I said the very same thing. I used playing guitar as an example. Hopefully I didn't give an elitist impression from the original post.

I made this thread because I think computer-illiteracy, like illiteracy itself, is a problem. I'm implying that there's a larger problem as well: that as the world gets increasingly more technical there's a trend in human apathy and even a fear of the technology that takes place.

Bill Joy (founder of Sun Microsystems) wrote an article in 2000 called, "Why The Future Doesn't Need Us" in Wired Magazine. He talks about a future in which technology will be speeding exponentially out of control with no speed limit and no brakes. He says that the questions technology will pose us with, will boil down to what it means to be human, and also predicts that people will kill over the answer. Bill Joy talked with James Cameron about these topics over the years, and inspired by those conversations, Cameron wrote the manuscript for the film, "The Terminator."

So, I think that ignorance is a serious problem--especially concerning technology and the fear that comes from it. A future scenario which pits misinformed fundamentalists who fear technology, against proponents for change is a scary prospect.

[decoherence]

Oh please. You want "quite limited?" Run on home and play with your VCR/abacus.

(Decoherence, I agree with the spirit of your post, I just wanted to address that particular point.)

Hmm, I could've put that better. What I mean is "limited set of tasks," not "email or browsing is a limited task" (which is nonsensical, anyway)

Thanks for the catch!

[rocky5051]

One thing I could see computer illiteracy associated with is the connection that learning how a computer works and how to properly do the stuff to maintain it leads to an unhealthy lifestyle. Is that necessarily true? That depends. People like me live the unhealthy end of it; sippin soda and iced tea every day at a computer desk for 8 hours checking the latest forum updates, writing various programs in VB,NET for educational purposes, watching WINE evolve, work on building other computers or taking care of other people's machines, and playing CounterStrike in between. But, unlike some people, I supplement this with exercise on the weekends and chores (like mowing our 2.5 acre lawn with a push mower) in between.

The former, the unhealthy lifestyle, is one of the things people will think about when they consider learning about computers. That isn't always the case, but through the media, Cartoon Network will tell kids "Hey, get active, but while you're at it hop on your computer and play this stupid flash game for a few hours before you do!", McDonalds will say "get out of your house and eat our junk and you'll stay thin!", and just about any company that harbors potential unhealthy decisions will do something similar.

I think part of the reason I stayed so interested is because I started using computers in a time when the Internet was evolving, and teachers told us to do whatever we thought was fun to play around on the systems, and nobody had anything but good things to say about it cept that AOL was moving up to version 5.0 and home user Internet just hit 56kbps max speed.

Since not everyone's talent is found with computers, those who simply just use them and do nothing to understand how what they are doing works may also be evaluating the misinformation fed to them from the media, and watching out for their health.

[lisati]

"Well said" to those who have used automobile analogies. Most of the time, the people I know just want to hop in the car, turn the key, and hope it starts, without needing a degree in mechanics or even having to worry too much about the details of how an internal combustion engine works. Even the basics of simple maintenance like tending to oil, water and other fluids that might be useful to the car's everyday operation would be outside their normal sphere of interest and knowledge. How many of the forum users would know how to change a tire? Much the same can be said of the tools we know as "computers."

[SunnyRabbiera]

Computer literacy is slow going in todays world sadly, most people dont even know how the basics on how a entire computer OS works much less something simple like a browser.
But does one have to know everything about a OS to use it?
Not really, knowing your OS's strengths and weaknesses is what will keep your head out of malware and viruses, but even knowing what antivirus is or what anti spyware is rare.
The windows age of computers is a huge double edged sword, on one hand it has brought computers away from private businesses and into the public eye but at the same time that public does not much know how things work on their systems.
But To be honest I myself don't consider myself much different then these kinds of people, I dont pretend to know everything but I do know a bit of how a OS works, how a computer works and how I can use that in todays society.
Are these people dumb or misinformed?
I say misinformed.

[bodhi.zazen]

"Well said" to those who have used automobile analogies. Most of the time, the people I know just want to hop in the car, turn the key, and hope it starts, without needing a degree in mechanics or even having to worry too much about the details of how an internal combustion engine works. Even the basics of simple maintenance like tending to oil, water and other fluids that might be useful to the car's everyday operation would be outside their normal sphere of interest and knowledge. How many of the forum users would know how to change a tire? Much the same can be said of the tools we know as "computers."

Changing tires is a good pick up line =)

[aysiu]

I didn't only mention a car. It goes for anything else. And believe it or not, some people don't know anything about there car, they just know how to get behind the steering wheel, buckle up and punch the gas. Same goes for computers, some people just know how to point and click there way through. Nothing more. So, does that make them idiots? I think not. First of all, I never called anyone an idiot.

But I do believe computer illiteracy is a big problem. And I think car analogies are limited (read the blog entry I linked to for more details).

But even using your example, yes, people know how to get behind the steering wheel, buckle up, and punch the gas. They also know to punch the brakes. They also know to fill up the car with petrol or gas. They also know not to hand the keys over to someone they don't trust. They also know not to leave it running all night while not actually going anywhere. They also know that small sharp objects can puncture the tire.

And I'm saying that same level of knowledge is not present with computers. Most computer users do not know how to point-and-click. They can't do basic tasks. I'm not talking about building or repairing computers. I'm not talking about removing malware. I'm talking about using a mail merge wizard, changing the browser homepage, setting wallpaper backgrounds, uploading photos, remembering passwords--these should all be simple tasks just like getting behind the steering wheel and punching the gas.

I'm not name-calling. I don't think people are idiotic, stupid, or dumb. I do think too many people are afraid of using computers. I do think too many people are ignorant about computers considering how much they use computers. As you said, it goes for anything else. There are basic things people need to know and then more advanced stuff they don't need to know.

The problem here is that too many people don't even know the basic stuff when it comes to computers. This is a real sociological problem.

So -1 to all the bad car analogies. They don't apply here.

[MaxIBoy]

I say it's a dumb idea to be misinformed.

[Redundant Username]

I would say not informed at all.

[Tipped OuT]

First of all, I never called anyone an idiot.

But I do believe computer illiteracy is a big problem. And I think car analogies are limited (read the blog entry I linked to for more details).

But even using your example, yes, people know how to get behind the steering wheel, buckle up, and punch the gas. They also know to punch the brakes. They also know to fill up the car with petrol or gas. They also know not to hand the keys over to someone they don't trust. They also know not to leave it running all night while not actually going anywhere. They also know that small sharp objects can puncture the tire.

And I'm saying that same level of knowledge is not present with computers. Most computer users do not know how to point-and-click. They can't do basic tasks. I'm not talking about building or repairing computers. I'm not talking about removing malware. I'm talking about using a mail merge wizard, changing the browser homepage, setting wallpaper backgrounds, uploading photos, remembering passwords--these should all be simple tasks just like getting behind the steering wheel and punching the gas.

I'm not name-calling. I don't think people are idiotic, stupid, or dumb. I do think too many people are afraid of using computers. I do think too many people are ignorant about computers considering how much they use computers. As you said, it goes for anything else. There are basic things people need to know and then more advanced stuff they don't need to know.

The problem here is that too many people don't even know the basic stuff when it comes to computers. This is a real sociological problem.

So -1 to all the bad car analogies. They don't apply here.


I didn't only mention a car. It goes for anything else.

Don't think so hard guys.

This is basic stuff, don't have to get real technical with it. ;)

[SunnyRabbiera]

First of all, I never called anyone an idiot.

But I do believe computer illiteracy is a big problem. And I think car analogies are limited (read the blog entry I linked to for more details)

Actually using a car is like using a computer is a good analogy.
The thing is it takes some time to be able to use both.
Now as everyone knows you need a license to use a car, almost like you need a license to use a computer (well if one uses Windows you do, though thats a different kind of license, a driverse license allows one to legally drive up and down the road, the microsoft license is the kind you need to type in each time you register Windows)


But even using your example, yes, people know how to get behind the steering wheel, buckle up, and punch the gas. They also know to punch the brakes. They also know to fill up the car with petrol or gas. They also know not to hand the keys over to someone they don't trust. They also know not to leave it running all night while not actually going anywhere. They also know that small sharp objects can puncture the tire.

Yes but this is inherited knowledge, the car industry is far older then the home computer industry.
The lesions we learned with cars took a long time to obtain

[aysiu]

Actually using a car is like using a computer is a good analogy. It can be a good analogy. But so far in this thread, those who have tried to use it as an analogy have failed to match up like parts in the comparison.

[Sealbhach]

The car analogy is not a good one because for one reason, you don't enter your credit card details into your car.

.

[Tipped OuT]

The car analogy is not a good one because for one reason, you don't enter your credit card details into your car.

.

*sigh*

[aysiu]

*sigh*
I had the same reaction to your earlier post.

The car analogies have not been used appropriately here.

Why do the simple tasks for a computer match up with complex tasks for a car?

[lisati]

The car analogy is not a good one because for one reason, you don't enter your credit card details into your car.

.

Not yet, but most vehicles I've used need some kind of fuel or energy source, which usually has to be paid for.

[Tipped OuT]

I had the same reaction to your earlier post.

The car analogies have not been used appropriately here.

Why do the simple tasks for a computer match up with complex tasks for a car?

You only see it from your perspective. For other people, these "simple tasks" can be rocket science to them.

[aysiu]

You only see it from your perspective. For other people, these "simple tasks" can be rocket science to them.
Of course, simple tasks can be rocket science for them. That's where the analogy breaks down.

Simple tasks on a car are simple.
Simple tasks on a computer are "rocket science."

That's the problem right there. Simple tasks should be simple, no matter what you're using.

Which do you think is a more common conversation?

A: My car doesn't work.
B: What do you mean it doesn't work?
A: Well, normally I turn this thing. Then I turn the wheely thing, and the car moves.
B: What happens when you try to drive the car?
A: Nothing.
B: Did you press the gas?
A: What's "the gas"?
B: The thin pedal down there where your feet are.
A: Oh, that. I press it and the car just lurches back and forth.
B: Do you have your parking brake on?
A: My what? Stop using all these technical terms.
B: There's a long stick thing between the two front seats. Is it pulled up or down?
A: I can't tell.
B: Well press the button on it and pull it up and then let it down and see if that makes a difference.
A: I'm confused. Do you want it up or down?
B: You press and hold the button, then while you're holding it, left up the parking brake, and then let it down.

C: My computer doesn't work
D: What do you mean it doesn't work?
C: Normally, I turn it on and click the internet and check my email, but it won't work.
D: So you're clicking on Internet Explorer?
C: What's Internet Explorer? Don't use all these technical terms.
D: Is there a blue E on your taskbar?
C: What's a taskbar?
D: There should be a long horizontal bar at the bottom of your computer screen. Is there one?
C: No, there isn't. So my computer's broken?
D: I don't know if your computer's broken. Is there a blue E icon on your desktop?
C: What's that?
D: Your desktop. The place where your wallpaper is. It's if you minimize all your windows.
C: I don't know what a wallpaper is.
D: Can you just press Windows-D and tell me if you see a blue E icon?
C: What's Windows-D?
D: There should be a key on your keyboard between Control and Alt. Press that button. Hold it down. Also press the D key and then let go of both keys.

[Tipped OuT]

Of course, simple tasks can be rocket science for them. That's where the analogy breaks down.

Simple tasks on a car are simple.
Simple tasks on a computer are "rocket science."

That's the problem right there. Simple tasks should be simple, no matter what you're using.


Simple tasks on a car are "rocket science".
Simple tasks on a computer are simple.

You see where we're getting at here? Both perspectives. Not just yours.

[aysiu]

Simple tasks on a car are "rocket science".
Simple tasks on a computer are simple.

You see where we're getting at here? Both perspectives. Not just yours.
But that's not what you were saying.

You were saying simple tasks on a car are simple. Get in the car, turn the key, pump the gas. Drive.

And I'm saying the analagous tasks on a computer too many people consider to be "rocket science" when they are really simple.

Please stop patronizing me. Clearly you aren't getting both perspectives, so don't make it sound as if I'm being closed-minded and you're being open-minded. You haven't really shown at all that you understand my point.

All you've done is flip around what I wrote, as if that's supposed to disprove what I've said.

[sdlynx]

wow...

but I guess a lot of those people have other things they do and aren't too good w/ computers...

[Tipped OuT]

But that's not what you were saying.

You were saying simple tasks on a car are simple. Get in the car, turn the key, pump the gas. Drive.

And I'm saying the analagous tasks on a computer too many people consider to be "rocket science" when they are really simple.

Please stop patronizing me. Clearly you aren't getting both perspectives, so don't make it sound as if I'm being closed-minded and you're being open-minded. You haven't really shown at all that you understand my point.

All you've done is flip around what I wrote, as if that's supposed to disprove what I've said.

Lets just agree to disagree. Because obviously you're not understanding me, and I'm not understanding you.

-TT

[swoll1980]

I would say dumb, like sheep.

Not dumb. They just don't care. I couldn't tell you who makes my transmission, or if there's better ones out there. Some grease monkey might say I'm dumb because I use a certain brand of oil. He may say I am a dumb sheep, that just uses the oil because that's what the Cadillac dealer told me to use. While I do know what alot of the parts on my car are called, there is alot I'm clueless about. I don't think that makes me dumb. I just don't care.

[magh-87]

I don't pretend to know everything when it comes to computers, but I know that I know sufficiently more when it comes to computers around my immediate family (my uncle knows a lot more than I do). I doubt I would even be at the point I am now if I hadn't of had the experiences provided to me when I was in K-6. Once a week we would spend an hour in a computer lab and mess around in Windows 3.1. Sure, I didn't learn a lot from this but I became comfortable with what I was doing. Then my dad bought his first laptop when I was in grade 3. Computers games for young children were finally coming out so he got one for my sister and I to use. This allowed for everyone (with the exception of my mother) to become familiar with what a computer was and how we could use it.

In high school we had the option of taking computer classes to further our knowledge of the "tower". Some were just the basics (Software Applications 12) while others would actually teach you how to do more with those basics (Computer Systems 12). By this time, I'd taken my computer apart, looked at how it was put together, maybe installed a hard drive or a CD/DVD drive, but it was these things that enabled me to know what I did back then.

I personally can't build a computer on my own however I know what I need in order to have it work the way I want it to. That's where my other friends and their similar interests come into play. My girlfriends brother is more hardware oriented when it comes to computers where as I tend to be more software oriented. This interest is computers is what makes us a dynamic duo, because we can rely on each other for our own computer needs.

That's what it comes down to though. An interest. I don't know anything when it comes to vehicles. I know that I'd prefer a car in the summer and my truck in the winter. Aside from the indicator on the dash telling me to put in oil or gas, if something breaks, I call CAA. With enough willpower, I could likely learn enough about cars to be able to properly maintain one to help prevent wear & tear and to prolong the life of the vehicle.

So while we may seem to have all the answers, we don't have them to everything. In another post, I referred to the fact that my mom will come to me when she can't connect to the internet using Vista and my dad will come to me when new software (sometimes hardware) won't work on his laptop. Is it frustrating? Definitely. You have to learn to deal with it and understand that they have specialities in areas that you may know absolutely nothing about. My mom's a nurse, I don't know anything about medicine. My dad's a financial manager, I don't know much about the market.

Just take a deep breath, count to ten and if the people who are getting you frustrated with their computer illiteracy are willing to listen to you, teach them about the basics of computers and maybe next time they won't come to you at the first sign of trouble. And if they do, charge them by the hour :P





But people are paying Geek Squad to install software for them. That's ridiculous! Really? I can understand if you don't want to replace the motherboard yourself, but you can't even stick a CD in the CD drive and click through a few menus?


I think this may be a job I could get into. Installing software is a drag but it's easy enough anyway :)

[SunnyRabbiera]

Of course, simple tasks can be rocket science for them. That's where the analogy breaks down.

Simple tasks on a car are simple.
Simple tasks on a computer are "rocket science."

That's the problem right there. Simple tasks should be simple, no matter what you're using.

Which do you think is a more common conversation?

A: My car doesn't work.
B: What do you mean it doesn't work?
A: Well, normally I turn this thing. Then I turn the wheely thing, and the car moves.
B: What happens when you try to drive the car?
A: Nothing.
B: Did you press the gas?
A: What's "the gas"?
B: The thin pedal down there where your feet are.
A: Oh, that. I press it and the car just lurches back and forth.
B: Do you have your parking brake on?
A: My what? Stop using all these technical terms.
B: There's a long stick thing between the two front seats. Is it pulled up or down?
A: I can't tell.
B: Well press the button on it and pull it up and then let it down and see if that makes a difference.
A: I'm confused. Do you want it up or down?
B: You press and hold the button, then while you're holding it, left up the parking brake, and then let it down.

Yes but the early users of cars probably had simular issues, not the exact same issues but cars in the early 1900's were probably difficult to learn.
Or if you come from a place where the word "Car" might as well be as alien as the word "computer"

[Irihapeti]

I would say that there are a lot of people using computers who are unsuited, by temperament or whatever, to using computers.

If someone takes up, let's say, tennis and they clearly aren't co-ordinated enough to play the game even moderately well, the usual response is likely to be "Hey, this doesn't seem to suit you - why not leave it alone and try something else that does?"

You can do that with many activities, but with computers, there isn't that option. Everyone is expected to use one. With more stuff going online, it's getting harder to opt out.

It's probably easier to manage without driving than without a computer.

[dragos240]

I want to shoot every person in that video......

[raronson]

About the car analogies...

Aside from getting the details right about what is analogous to what, there's a more fundamental issue: operating an automobile is probably one of the most complex things any of us does on a given day. This level of complexity associated to the task(s) involved shows definitively that people are capable of complex interactions with complex devices. Interestingly enough, cab drivers use more of their brain on a given work day than most other people who have far more complicated vocations. We're probably not aware of all the neural activity going on, because it's forked into the background. Unconscious judgements are being made while travelling at 60 Mph that rival or exceed the throughput of the worlds largest supercomputers. Our pattern-recognition software is having to calculate and anticipate for a world in accelerated motion. The computing going on upstairs is nothing less that stupefying.

We don't need to have an engineering level of expertise to operate a car, or know all the specs and particulars about the systems and sub-systems at work. We just need a rudimentary knowledge of the controls and some experience behind the wheel to upgrade our firmware in the computer upstairs.

Having this level of complexity already stored under our hats shows that we're capable--and most of us are even on "autopilot", having a conversation, or listening to music while we drive. Meanwhile, the brain is exceedingly busy ensuring that we don't die--which brings up a good point: Automobile accidents are a leading cause of death for humans worldwide, ranked 9th by the World Health Organization. This should add some teeth to the argument of the complexity involved with operating a car. It's literally a matter of life and death.

Seen from this light, we should be capable of just about anything. To invert the New Testament a bit, the flesh is able but the spirit is weak.

[Tipped OuT]

About the car analogies...

Aside from getting the details right about what is analogous to what, there's a more fundamental issue: operating an automobile is probably one of the most complex things any of us does on a given day. This level of complexity associated to the task(s) involved shows definitively that people are capable of complex interactions with complex devices. Interestingly enough, cab drivers use more of their brain on a given work day than most other people who have far more complicated vocations. We're probably not aware of all the neural activity going on, because it's forked into the background. Unconscious judgements are being made while travelling at 60 Mph that rival or exceed the throughput of the worlds largest supercomputers. Our pattern-recognition software is having to calculate and anticipate for a world in accelerated motion. The computing going on upstairs is nothing less that stupefying.

We don't need to have an engineering level of expertise to operate a car, or know all the specs and particulars about the systems and sub-systems at work. We just need a rudimentary knowledge of the controls and some experience behind the wheel to upgrade our firmware in the computer upstairs.

Having this level of complexity already stored under our hats shows that we're capable--and most of us are even on "autopilot", having a conversation, or listening to music while we drive. Meanwhile, the brain is exceedingly busy ensuring that we don't die--which brings up a good point: Automobile accidents are a leading cause of death for humans worldwide, ranked 9th by the World Health Organization. This should add some teeth to the argument of the complexity involved with operating a car. It's literally a matter of life and death.

Seen from this light, we should be capable of just about anything. To invert the New Testament a bit, the flesh is able but the spirit is weak.

You're thinking too hard again. I see your point, but wow. You're turning a simple debate, into a technical one. But like I said, I see your point.

[nubimax]

This from a dumb old man. The first time I had any thing to do with computers was way back I think it might have 57 or 58, it had to do with punching holes in small pieces of cardboard this was the most boring thing I had ever came across. after 3 months of that I never wanted to hear the word computer again. In the early 80's, using basic I typed some silly games for my son on what was called a home computer It used the TV for a monitor. The next computer I bought was a Kaypro if any one remembers those. there have been several since then I never had much time to use any of them the wife and kid use them a lot but I had to much other thing that had to be done to support the family, Now I have lots of time and have been tinkering with computers a little. The one I am using now managed to get badly infected with a virus not only did it ruin the OS (XP) but the hard drive, the mother board, the cd write drive, and when you turned it on the power supply made clunking sounds. I took the tower apart and with the help of a book and telephone calls to my nephew in Seattle I put this computer together. I can't tell you what a lot of the names of the cards, drivers, etc, are as long as it works I don't give a rip. Like my TV sitting up there does it work "who cares" I haven't turned it on for five years I know it just has what for me is just garbage playing on it. In 1952 my dad told me to never underestimate the stupidity of people but I am still doing it. And I still know little or nothing about computers. you will see my posts asking for help in the absolute beginners posts.
regards from this dumb old man
M

[raronson]

You're thinking too hard again. I see your point, but wow. You're turning a simple debate, into a technical one. But like I said, I see your point.

:) A lot of people accuse me of this. It's just that I don't find thinking to be a particularly hard activity.

[raronson]

... regards from this dumb old man
M

:) I wouldn't call you dumb, but you might just call me dumb if I told you that I'd probably get off on running punch cards through an old Hollerith machine.