Windows refund on laptops thread

[rgb1701]

As the EULA-declined Windows refund issue is a BIG, PERSISTENT problem on laptops, this thread is meant to be a place to collect and discuss the current state of the Windows Refund Problem across the globe, with the hope that this thread will be made sticky in the Laptops forum.

It appears some positive movement is happening in the UK-

http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/07/21/getting-your-microsoft-tax-refunded-1010-for-amazon-uk/

http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/07/23/1855211

with some past success with Dell reported here

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=486932&highlight=dell+windows+refund

Those of us in the PC game since the early 90's know this has been an issue for a long

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/01/18/1539214

http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html

long time.

It has been reported in the mainstream media as long-

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9901/22/refunds.idg/index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/01/biztech/articles/25computer-briefs.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/01/28/BU74183.DTL

IMO, this problem is coming to a head, with judges in France,

http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/19/0154224

Italy
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/27/1952257

and Israel
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/12/03/1949230

awarding refunds.

What can be done to force US vendors like the Dell.com's and HP.com's of the world to provide an easy access, easy to remit procedure to remove the cost of the Windows license and/or obtain the refund?

[philcamlin]

woo cheaper computers!:popcorn:

[rgb1701]

This is one of the best overviews of MS's Windows licensing practices with OEM's I've seen-

http://forums.vr-zone.com/notebooks-netbooks/351572-windows-7-netbooks-the-facts.html

Of note

"Microsoft won’t talk publicly about how much it charges OEMs per copy of Windows they preload on new machines. As a result of the company’s settlement years ago with the U.S. Department of Justice, we do know that Microsoft can no longer use the price of Windows to discriminate against its top 20 PC maker partners. All of these partners pay the same per copy of Windows. (Below that top tier, there is more variance in pricing, based on volume of machines sold and other factors.)

“Getting an answer to what Microsoft charges an OEM is nearly impossible,” said Michael Cherry, an analyst with Directions on Microsoft. “Neither Microsoft nor the OEMs like to talk about this. Anecdotally, I have heard from the OEMs and Wall Street Analysts that the Windows OS could be the emost expensive single element in a PC. I have also heard people suggest it is the only element that never goes down in price. But I cannot vouch for the truth of these assertions.”


I’ve heard the same “anecdotes” as Cherry. Back in the Windows 95 days, I do know Microsoft was charging the top PC makers roughly $60 to $70 per copy of Windows on new machines. Each subsequent version of Windows typically cost OEMs a few dollars more — regardless of how much the PC sells for at retail/in volume. Microsoft argued that it was including more features and functionality in each new release, so even if consumers weren’t willing to pay more per PC, OEMs should have to cough up more money for each new version of Windows.

Microsoft’s relationship with its PC-maker partners is not totally adversarial. With Windows Vista, for example, Microsoft and the OEMs were in cahoots to find a way to get users to buy “premium” PCs running “premium” releases of Windows. (A plan that backfired, by the way, as the ongoing class-action suit over “Windows Capable” has made all too clear.) With Windows 7, Microsoft and certain PC makers are looking to offset plummeting PC revenues with higher-priced touch-enabled PCs."

[rgb1701]

A recent story of one man's adventure getting his Windows refund from HP

http://equiliberate.org/?q=node/3

[mikewhatever]

Here is another one for you http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/04/dell_windows_eula_israel/
I think I am personally indebted to the guy for being able to buy a Dell noetbook sans Windows. If only more people around the world dared.

[rgb1701]

Here is another one for you http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/04/dell_windows_eula_israel/
I think I am personally indebted to the guy for being able to buy a Dell noetbook sans Windows. If only more people around the world dared.

It is time for all vendors to adhere to the legal-binding EULA and offer easy credit/refund to anyone who declines the Windows license.

These ad hoc, case-by-case anecdotes are all well and good, but it's high time for aggressive Attorney General's of US states, and of the US itself, to enforce the rights of consumers and force all major PC vendors to comply in a consistent, easy to access manner.

This means providing simple "No OS" (and/or Freedos, like Dell used to) options on their "configure PC/notebook" web wizards, with the corresponding Windows OEM value

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116480

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116485

deducted.

And no, they can't weasel out of the *hardware* warranties- software questions or issues, yes, but full hardware coverage cannot be denied.

I encourage others out there to contact their state Attorney General on this issue, with the relevant section of the Windows EULA highlighted or quoted in your letter/email.

[rgb1701]

Get a copy of the MS EULA here-
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/

[rgb1701]

One of the best posts from the original /. article-
http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/07/23/1855211

"by javilon (99157) on Thursday July 23, @03:52PM (#28799305)

To me, of all things that have been considered as a remedy against Microsoft monopoly abuse, the only one that is logical and practical would be to stop them from bundling hardware and software. I can't understand why this hasn't been done by either the EU or USA.

Software and hardware are clearly two different markets. You can install Windows in hardware from a number of vendors, and you can install a number of operating systems on a PC.

So you would buy a computer and you would get two receipts, one for the machine and another one for the OS. The OS can even be preinstalled on the machine and you would only get an activation key with your receipt. If you don't want the operating system, you just buy the hardware and don't pay for the activation key.

What really makes me mad is that the only reason this is not considered by the authorities is because Linux is not commercial, so they are not losing money from Microsoft's monopoly abuse. Only companies matter to government. The fact that the public would benefit from an operating system market where Linux would be allowed to compete on equals grounds is not relevant to the government because there is no single company making money from Linux."

[rgb1701]

Remember, the Windows Refund Problem is not limited to Linux/FOSS "zealots"- XP users continue to be dogged by Vista, wanting to install their own copy of XP vs the Vista preinstalls. Here is a discussion of the Vista refund among Windows users-

http://www.techeaven.com/2007/05/10/windows-vista-oem-refund/

http://www.vistax64.com/vista-general/121836-windows-vista-refund-policy.html

[rgb1701]

Anyone else get a refund on your laptop with Windows preinstalled?

If so, please post your story...

[henla464]

Success story from sweden:

Just about a month ago I ordered a Dell E6400 laptop from Dustin Home. It had Windows Vista preinstalled and it was not possible to buy one without Windows. Since I am a Ubuntu user I had no intention of using Vista so I hoped it would be possible to return it.

First time I started up the computer there is a message with the title "Dell end user software license agreement" or something similar. It says that if you don't agree to the license you should contact customer service for further instructions. In the license agreement that comes in a separate leaflet it says that if I don't agree to the license I have to immediately return software discs and documentation (it says nothing about returning the laptop).

So I call the customer service at Dustin Home and explain that I don't accept the license agreement and that I want to return Windows Vista for a refund. I keep it very short, not explaining why or anything. The girl asks me if she understood me correct, that I only want to return the software and not the laptop. I said yes and she asks me to wait a few minutes while she talks to someone. It seems she doesn't know how to handle this kind of request.

After a couple of minutes she comes back and says that they will talk to Dell to see if they will accept a return of the software from them. She will send me an email in a few days about the outcome of that.

A few days later I get an email telling me to send the software to them, they will then return it to Dell and when they are refunded from Dell they will refund me.

A few days ago the refund showed up on my account!! It's not that much, only 300 SEK (about 42 usd) but I didn't expect more.

The process was very smoth, not once did anyone at Dustin Home argue that I could not return it. The email I got was from Annica Molin and I suppose it was her I talked to also. I want to thank her and Dustin Home for a very nice experience, the quick process and for quick answers to my questions. Thank you!

I am also very pleased with the computer! It's very nice and Ubuntu runs great on it!

/Henrik Larsson

[gn2]

/Henrik Larsson

Does a multi millionaire footballer really need a refund? :)

[Viva]

Does a multi millionaire footballer really need a refund? :)

:lolflag:

[henla464]

multi millionaire

I wish....

[speedwell68]

I attempted to get a refund on Vista from Acer. My Vista install was never booted I installed Ubuntu at the first start of the machine. I contacted Microsoft and asked directly for a refund. They said that they do not give refunds on OEM licences and that I was to contact Acer as my contract of sale exists with them. So I contacted Acer who told me that they do not warrant any of the software shipped with their PCs and that the software is supplied free of charge. As it is FOC their is no refund to be had.

[hobo14]

I bought a laptop while I lived in China, no nasty copyright or EULA problems there ;)

The guy told me the price, I told him I wanted it w/out windows; no problem, the price went down.

Of course, it would have only been a pirated version if I wanted it anyway, and my Samsung external disc was only Samsung as deep as the outer cover, but everything has it's flipside....

[gn2]

I wish....

Ah, you're not the Henrik Larsson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrik_Larsson) then?

[ethanay]

Here is my thread, in the Dell support forums since it deals specifically with Dell:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8337669

Some good resources in the replies

[robindevaucelles]

Hej,

As a member of www.racketiciel.info (http://www.racketiciel.info), I would be very interested talking to you if you have a minute or two. The windows refund squad we have created in France is very active (20 small claim court trials already, and that's only a start), and I think it could be very interesting to extend such a squad to Sweden, where I now live.

Could you please drop me an email ?

Hej då,

Rob

PS: Jag pratar lite svenska men det är svårt...

[Dr. C]

Does a multi millionaire footballer really need a refund? :)

Why would the net worth of the person buying the computer have any relevance to the forced bundling of hardware with software?