Linus Torvalds: "Microsoft Hatred Is a Disease"

[Kragnerac]

http://www.osnews.com/story/21887/Linus_Microsoft_Hatred_Is_a_Disease_


I may make jokes about Microsoft at times, but at the same time, i think the Microsoft hatred is a disease. I believe in open development, and that very much involves not just making the source open, but also not shutting other people and companies out.

[Tristam Green]

Man, could that lesson be applied to a bunch around here.

Awaiting the instant reversal of numerous half-decade Micro-phobes.

[nmccrina]

Go Linus! :popcorn:

[RiceMonster]

Linux zealots, take note. Linus always seems to talk sense, and this is a prime example.

[Viva]

Man, could that lesson be applied to a bunch around here.

Awaiting the instant reversal of numerous half-decade Micro-phobes.

Linus said a lot of things I disagree and this would be another one.

[gn2]

Microsoft? Who are they?

[kk0sse54]

Linus said a lot of things I disagree and this would be another one.

That Microsoft isn't the Great Satan? That people are allowed to choose what they want? And that being a true believer in Open Source also means believing that proprietary software can exist along side Open Source software?

[loell]

I agree that it's driven by selfish reasons, but that's how all open source code gets written! We all "scratch our own itches". It's why I started Linux, it's why I started git, and it's why I am still involved. It's the reason for everybody to end up in open source, to some degree.

QFT! we are all selfish! :D

and selfishness is way bigger than hatred. :KS

[JohnFH]

Linus said a lot of things I disagree and this would be another one.

Really? I think he speaks a lot of sense here and I really hope the Microsoft haters will take note. Don't get me wrong, I really don't like Windows at all, but the Microsoft hatred that Linus talks about here is not good.

[stwschool]

I rip the p*** out of windows for its various faults, but I also understand that it has its place. I dislike Microsoft's business practices and also think they're a bit crap at producing secure software, but also don't buy the rabid anti-MS stuff that goes on (though I buy even less the anti-Linux ranting that MS users can indulge in). They've made genuine contributions in bringing computing to the masses through usability, if not by other means, and Linux wouldn't be as good as it is now if it hadn't had Windows to compete against.

[collinp]

I agree with the majority of the people here. Linus may sound insane at times, but he does speak sense, and this is a example.

[pasti]

It's no wonder windows users hate us when people write "microsh*t", or the even more side splittingly funny,"microshaft", were all going to be tarred with linux/geek/fanboi/freetard, brush, people really hate being told they're stupid and knocking their choices for not using the same o/s as all the cool kids, so let people use what they want and stop evangelising linux to people who arne't interested in this great o/s, I agree with Linus on this one.

[Viva]

That Microsoft isn't the Great Satan? That people are allowed to choose what they want? And that being a true believer in Open Source also means believing that proprietary software can exist along side Open Source software?


Really? I think he speaks a lot of sense here and I really hope the Microsoft haters will take note. Don't get me wrong, I really don't like Windows at all, but the Microsoft hatred that Linus talks about here is not good.

My problem with microsoft isn't windows at all. Before calling us Zealots, some of you should read up on microsoft's history and business practices. Many of us have a valid concern/hatred about microsoft and that has nothing to do with linux or open source in general. I have always disliked microsoft, but the Patent FUD and SCO bolloxs was the final straw.

[Viva]

It's no wonder windows users hate us when people write "microsh*t", or the even more side splittingly funny,"microshaft", were all going to be tarred with linux/geek/fanboi/freetard, brush, people really hate being told they're stupid and knocking their choices for not using the same o/s as all the cool kids, so let people use what they want and stop evangelising linux to people who arne't interested in this great o/s, I agree with Linus on this one.

Maybe you should stop telling us to stop evangelize linux. Is calling a company microshit worse than bullying companies into using their product or spreading FUD about a competitive product?

[Viva]

I wonder how long it will take for the <beep> from linsux.org to show up

[l-x-l]

I personally dislike a lot of things about microsoft. (Particularly Vista & Windows Mobile). But I DON'T hate the whole company. I think they have made great contributions to the PC world.

What I do hate is how they abuse their monopoly power.

[kk0sse54]

I wonder how long it will take for the <beep> from linsux.org to show up

You perfectly exemplify what Linus was talking about.

[Viva]

I personally dislike a lot of things about microsoft. (Particularly Vista & Windows Mobile). But I DON'T hate the whole company. I think they have made great contributions to the PC world.

What I do hate is how they abuse their monopoly power.

I'm in the same boat. I'm personally more concerned about the hatred of Bill Gates in the linux groups. He was only a part of that corporation. If you read the book, "Barbarians led by Bill Gates", you'll find out that Gates isn't/wasn't the be all and end all of microsoft he's made out to be.

[Swagman]

My problem with microsoft isn't windows at all. Before calling us Zealots, some of you should read up on microsoft's history and business practices. Many of us have a valid concern/hatred about microsoft and that has nothing to do with linux or open source in general. I have always disliked microsoft, but the Patent FUD and SCO bolloxs was the final straw.

This.

Would people buy a car from a known convicted (numerous times) criminal ?

[RiceMonster]

My problem with microsoft isn't windows at all. Before calling us Zealots, some of you should read up on microsoft's history and business practices. Many of us have a valid concern/hatred about microsoft and that has nothing to do with linux or open source in general. I have always disliked microsoft, but the Patent FUD and SCO bolloxs was the final straw.

You know, I think you'd be a lot happier if you didn't have to be so strongly apposed to something that has such little effect on your life. Just because they've had questionable business practises (most of which are over-dramaticized) in the past does not mean everything they do has evil intentions. I mean, people have rag on Microsoft for being so proprietary, then they finally release GPL code and people think it's a conspiracy. Give me a break.

[Viva]

You perfectly exemplify what Linus was talking about.

Trolls need not be treated with respect and that is what the guys at linsux.org who invade this forum are. I don't understand how my comment was related to Linus' comments anyway.

[JohnFH]

I wonder how long it will take for the <beep> from linsux.org to show up

I don't think we're going to be the best of friends - I love that site!

[kdetech]

I agree any OS has its ups and downs. E.g windows is the best for gaming.

[benny bronx]

A very fitting reply by Linus, responding to the overly dramatic MS bashing with his own overstatement. A disease? Come on people, we are talking about computers.

[Viva]

I don't think we're going to be the best of friends - I love that site!

That site is a good laugh indeed.

[OldGnome]

I wonder how long it will take for the <beep> from linsux.org to show up
Viva:

I'm not picking on you here - I am just using your post as an example. That is exactly the kind of thing being discussed in this thread - the seeming necessity to drive a personal insult directly at someone you happen to disagree with.

Using a pejorative term just to belittle someone else does great harm to any dialogue that may ensue. If you dislike an individual or group that much, why go poking a stick in the badger hole? You know it annoys the badger, the badger knows it annoys the badger and you wake the neighbors with the noise.

Have we forgotten how to have a creative and intelligent debate of something on the merits without stooping to calling each other by names we used when we were toddlers?

[ELD]

Linux zealots, take note. Linus always seems to talk sense, and this is a prime example.

Agreed 100% with you, Zealots really annoy me. I use Windows and Linux and it will probably always be that way i like them both.

[koshatnik]

Linux zealots, take note. Linus always seems to talk sense, and this is a prime example.

Isn't he just stating the obvious?

[lukjad]

http://www.osnews.com/story/21887/Linus_Microsoft_Hatred_Is_a_Disease_

I agree. I like to make fun of Microsoft, and don't like the goals, but it's *just* a corporation. You can't hate Microsoft and not hate all the other corporations that make practically everything you use.

[Viva]

Viva:

I'm not picking on you here - I am just using your post as an example. That is exactly the kind of thing being discussed in this thread - the seeming necessity to drive a personal insult directly at someone you happen to disagree with.

Using a pejorative term just to belittle someone else does great harm to any dialogue that may ensue. If you dislike an individual or group that much, why go poking a stick in the badger hole? You know it annoys the badger, the badger knows it annoys the badger and you wake the neighbors with the noise.

Have we forgotten how to have a creative and intelligent debate of something on the merits without stooping to calling each other by names we used when we were toddlers?

Somebody else stated their objections about using the terms like microshit here. I don't expect any intelligent debate from people who call themselves LINSUX on a linux forum. They are just trolls and I treat them like trolls.


Agreed 100% with you, Zealots really annoy me. I use Windows and Linux and it will probably always be that way i like them both.

Again, the hatred/dislike/whatever of microsoft has nothing to do with windows and linux in my case. The same can be said about many others who don't like microsoft.

[DeadSuperHero]

I wonder how long it will take for the <beep> from linsux.org to show up

I take offense at this, sir. Linsux.org has gone through much restructuring lately to be more relevant and kind to the FOSS community. Am I a jerk? Most definitely? A ****? I think not.

[Viva]

I take offense at this, sir. Linsux.org has gone through much restructuring lately to be more relevant and kind to the FOSS community. Am I a jerk? Most definitely? A ****? I think not.

You're not one of them, are you? I always liked you:D

[DeadSuperHero]

I'm Sir Sane over there...

Linsux.org, when you get past the vulgarities, is a community where we all get to sit down and intelligently discuss what upsets us about the FOSS community, along with occasional proposals for fixes.

The site is being restructured somewhat. We're working on setting up a Portal front-end and doing regular news coverage for non-linux operating systems. (I don't just mean Windows and Mac, but also the smaller systems that don't get much coverage: Plan9, Haiku, ReactOS, The BSD's, OpenSolaris, AROS, ZetaOS, etc.)

We're trying to move away from the "troll forum" image we portray.

[Greg]

Wow, Linus said "Microsoft... is a diease"? I think I'm going to start hating them now.

[andrew.g]

Steve Ballmer: "Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches".

This statement alone makes me laugh at Microsoft and their devout army of advocates and evangelists
(many present here I see :)) that we in the Linux community have them all wrong. Microsoft sure makes it difficult for me NOT to hate them.

I respect few people more than Linus Torvalds involved in modern information technology, but on this issue I have to disagree.

[JillSwift]

MSPhobia is a disease of community, not individuals.

When someone can type "M$" and spark an angry dogpile of people proclaiming that it demonstrates a terrible immaturity, incurable ignorance, and the like... there's something more putrescent going on than one person falling into the us-vs-them trap.

Anything that sparks such strong emotions either way over operating systems has grown well out of anything resembling reasonable proportions.

Those who hate Microsoft are wasting their time and energy on something that doesn't deserve the effort. However, for most this stage will pass. It's mostly the result of human social instinct, both trying to fit into a community and disparaging a separate community (our monkeys are better than their monkeys!).

Those who choose to react to the Microsoft hate with equally strong emotions are essentially guilty of the exact same mistake. Worse, such emotional responses tend to polarize people - each side no longer thinking about what they say and do but instead being driven by an emotional desire to be right.

The disease of MSPhobia is best treated with a calm reason. Keep it all in it's deserved perspective no matter how much anyone tries to make it a big whopping deal.

[clanky]

At last some sense from Linus.

The zealotry associated with certain parts of the Linux community is not only pathetic, it is actually harmful to the developement of Linux.

[Grenage]

Isn't he just stating the obvious?

He is. While I'm no Microsoft fan (despite the fact that the systems I work with are 90% Windows), you can't really blame them. Customer's buy their software, they don't run a protection racket.

[viralmeme]

'"Oh, I'm a big believer in "technology over politics". I don't care who it
comes from, as long as there are solid reasons for the code, and as long as
we don't have to worry about licensing etc issues'

[HappyFeet]

We're trying to move away from the "troll forum" image we portray.

You could start by changing the name of the site if you want to be taken seriously.

I stay away from sites with the name sucks/sux etc. in it. I strongly dislike Microsoft, but I would not go to Winsux.com as I feel it is a childish attempt at getting attention.

[swoll1980]

Who cares! Who cares what Linus says! Who cares if someone Loves Microsoft! Who cares if someone hates Microsoft! Who cares if people say "m$"! I think caring about the fact that someone said "M$" is WAY more immature, and petty, than actually saying it. Do people really have nothing better to do with there lives than going around giving a crap if someone says "M$". This is the 1000th time I've seen this discussion, and it's getting retarded. Really listen to yourselves, and think how you come off when you argue about dumb stuff like this. Really? No Really?

[gloken]

The nice thing about decentralized development and open source is that most of us aren't required to care what Linus, or any other individual thinks.

It's got a lot less impact on the final product than say, what Bill Gates thought when he was still at the top of the MS totem pole.

[chucky chuckaluck]

Would people buy a car from a known convicted (numerous times) criminal ?

i use reiserfs, so probably.

[JohnFH]

Who cares! Who cares what Linus says! Who cares if someone Loves Microsoft! Who cares if someone hates Microsoft! Who cares if people say "m$"! I think caring about the fact that someone said "M$" is WAY more immature, and petty, than actually saying it. Do people really have nothing better to do with there lives than going around giving a crap if someone says "M$". This is the 1000th time I've seen this discussion, and it's getting retarded. Really listen to yourselves, and think how you come off when you argue about dumb stuff like this. Really? No Really?

Is your rant tongue-in-cheek?

Maybe you've seen it a 1000 times because it annoys people?

Also when you say "Who cares" it's actually posing a question, albeit a rhetorical one, so you need to put a '?' at the end.

[.Maleficus.]

i use reiserfs, so probably.
Oh gawd I lol'd.

[HappyFeet]

Do people really have nothing better to do with there lives than going around giving a crap if someone says "M$".

Obviously they don't have anything better to do. Sad.

That said, I don't see this thread lasting much longer. Thank god.

[swoll1980]

We're trying to move away from the "troll forum" image we portray.

That would be like pornotube getting away from porn, and doing independent films. You guys are a little to late for that now.

[Viva]

That would be like pornotube getting away from porn, and doing independent films. You guys are a little to late for that now.

:lolflag:

[ViperChief]

That would be like pornotube getting away from porn, and doing independent films. You guys are a little to late for that now.

Would it be the same as someone who used to smoke but decided to quit smoking?

Or someone who used to use Windows but decided to start using Linux?


I'm just saying...things change.

[chucky chuckaluck]

Would it be the same as someone who used to quit smoking and decided to change?

it might be more like someone switching to low tar cigarettes.

[swoll1980]

Would it be the same as someone who used to quit smoking and decided to change?


Or someone who used to use Windows but decided to start using Linux?


No it wouldn't be the same. We're not talking about someone changing. We're talking about reputation. It's alot easier to change yourself, than to change people's perception of you. Would you let a convicted pedophile babysit your daughter? I wouldn't. It has nothing to do with whether he changed, or not. It has to do with my perception of him. See the difference?

[ViperChief]

it might be more like someone switching to low tar cigarettes.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. From what I understand, his point was that the website can't change.

So, my argument is things change all the time and that, yes, a website can change course.

[swoll1980]

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. From what I understand, his point was that the website can't change.

So, my argument is things change all the time and that, yes, a website can change course.

He said they wanted to change their image, not there website

[chucky chuckaluck]

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. From what I understand, his point was that the website can't change.

So, my argument is things change all the time and that, yes, a website can change course.

i'm just guessing it'll be a less toxic version of the same thing rather than something different. we'll see, i guess.

[ViperChief]

This tread has gotten way off topic and it wasn't supposed to be a discussion about Linsux.org. I'll just say this one last thing, and let it go.


The whole trolling thing...well, we were tired of it. We've been discussing about changing things for a while, now, and have finally started implementing it. We're shifting to a whole different focus, which doesn't include trolling.

I won't go into an advertisement for the site, but I hope some of ya'll will check it out as things shift to our new focus.

Okay, I'll quit with my side of the offtopic discussion.

[azangru]

What is Microsoft hatred anyway?

Isn't despise of being offered computers with MS Windows preinstalled practically as the only option?
Isn't it hatred of Silverlight that doesn't play nicely with Linux?
Isn't it hatred of viruses and the rest of malware?
Isn't it hatred of their patents that allow them to hinder development of Linux and to sue Linux any time they want?
Isn't it hatred of Steve Ballmer personally? :P


The list can go on and on. Why is this a disease?

[jrusso2]

I'm Sir Sane over there...

Linsux.org, when you get past the vulgarities, is a community where we all get to sit down and intelligently discuss what upsets us about the FOSS community, along with occasional proposals for fixes.

The site is being restructured somewhat. We're working on setting up a Portal front-end and doing regular news coverage for non-linux operating systems. (I don't just mean Windows and Mac, but also the smaller systems that don't get much coverage: Plan9, Haiku, ReactOS, The BSD's, OpenSolaris, AROS, ZetaOS, etc.)

We're trying to move away from the "troll forum" image we portray.

Intelligent discussion? I wish. Seems more like a bunch of adolescent boys swearing at each other and calling each other names more then intelligent anything.

[toupeiro]

with regard to .. the actual point of this thread..

You should agree with these principles regardless of Linus Torvalds. Really, this is no great epiphany, its common sense. Linus does have common sense, but its surprising to me to see so much surprise when something so .. reasonable.. is said by someone with the status of Linus..

[HappyFeet]

The list can go on and on. Why is this a disease?

It's not a disease in my eyes. People have the right to hate anything they want. People like to talk about linux zealots, but what about the windows zealots on here that freak out every time something negative is said about their beloved windows?

This thread is going to solve nothing. Go outside and play once in a while. The fresh air might do you some good.

[ViperChief]

He said they wanted to change their image, not there website

Well, as I said, the entire focus of the site is changing, which will, most likely, change the image, as a result.


Intelligent discussion? I wish. Seems more like a bunch of adolescent boys swearing at each other and calling each other names more then intelligent anything.

Intelligent discussion is what the senior members want. What it became is one of the things that brought on the changes.

We had our fun, now we want to get more serious.

[toupeiro]

We had our fun, now we want to get more serious.

linsux.org wants to get serious...

good luck with that.

[ViperChief]

linsux.org wants to get serious...

good luck with that.

Thanks!:P I appreciate that. :)

[SunnyRabbiera]

Linus said a lot of things I disagree and this would be another one.

Like his comment about KDE being better then Gnome and him turning around soon after KDE4 came out

[FuturePilot]

Linux zealots, take note. Linus always seems to talk sense, and this is a prime example.

So true

[ViperChief]

Like his comment about KDE being better then Gnome and him turning around soon after KDE4 came out

Which is a good reason not to use something just because someone else does.

That's why having all these different options is so frickin' great.

[raronson]

That would be like pornotube getting away from porn, and doing independent films. You guys are a little to late for that now.

Holy ****! There's a porntube.com? *** am I doing here? Seriously, my real post will follow, because I do think this is an important issue, and I assure you, I have plenty to do and lead a full life.

[DeadSuperHero]

Which is a good reason not to use something just because someone else does.

That's why having all these different options is so frickin' great.

Yes, they are.

*turns around and continues playing with E17's latest snapshot on OpenBSD*

[bodhi.zazen]

Although there are very good and valid reasons to dislike Microsoft, projecting hatred or other negative emotions is not the best way to promote Ubuntu or Linux.

Most people "get over", usually out grow, this disease eventually, although teh course can be quite protracted.

I suggest if you suffer from this disease you try, for one month, simply projecting all the positives and benefits of Ubuntu to any who are interested (don't start preaching to the disinterested).

I guarantee you will feel better.

[chucky chuckaluck]

*turns around and continues playing with E17's latest snapshot on OpenBSD*

that's kind of like putting hot fudge on a bologna sandwich.

[DeadSuperHero]

that's kind of like putting hot fudge on a bologna sandwich.

Don't knock it before you tried it. My dad used to have peanut-butter and pickle sandwiches as a kid. During the Great Depression, my great-grandfather ate almost nothing but crawdads and flour

[raronson]

If you've been keeping up with Linus over the years, then you'll see that just about everything he says ends up being controversial. The guy is a human being. He's fickle sometimes. Other times he says goofy things like the OpenBSD developers are masturbating monkeys. He's practical, diplomatic, funny, and articulate--that's why I read the headlines when his name pops up. I want a good laugh, or I want an equally intelligence counterpoint. But just because he's the benevolent dictator of the kernel, it doesn't mean that he speaks and we're all expected to tow the line. I think he'd find this annoying.

Preamble concluded, I don't agree with him on this issue. While I think that uninformed fanboys of any camp are equally annoying (probably the very folks he's making reference to), I don't think that hating Microsoft is a disease. As a few people have pointed out, their business practices are historically horrendous (which I won't ennumerate here). That certainly raises my disdain, and certainly other massive corporations are no saints, but it's not the reason I hate them.

I hate them because they've fleeced the world for over 20 years by selling patches to their broken software as new products. I hate them because they constantly reinvent the wheel and put their company logo on it. I hate them because they attempt to hijack open standards or create their own standards and API's to eclipse ones that are inherently open. I hate them because they have held back the pursuit and development of meaningful software due to their capitalistic model of stagnation (operating systems don't need to be sold anymore--go back to writing software!). I detest their buisness end, and I hate their products. Why do I even care?

I'm a technofuturist, and by extention, a philosopher. I see computing (along with a handful of other technologies) as being transformative to our world and transformative to the human condition. Now what's that mean? Simply, technology (especially information technology) takes a problematic, disparate, and xenophobic world and draws us closer through virtual presence--that is, it connects us.

The metaphor finds real extension and expression beyond language. It puts knowledge at our fingertips in a way that the world has never seen. It allows the oppressed to speak using a voice that can finally be heard globally. It exposes evil and those who hide it. It dissolves the Old World barriers that have generationally put us at each other's throats. It tears down walls. It builds entire communities (like this one, based on help, mutual respect, and enthusiasm). It wires our eyes, our nerves, and our brains into it's own circuitry, symbiotically stretching our senses over its pathways to perceive a larger whole.

We miss it. We look but we don't see it. We blink and it's gone. We watch videos of monkeys peeing on themselves, and we forget--that is if we ever knew to begin with--what we have here, and what it will someday be when it ceases to be a curiosity, a product, or a tool of simple amusement. For this reason, it needs to be open. It needs to be accessible. It needs to be free to do the very thing that it was intended for (but will evolve beyond): to connect things with each other.

Utopian dreamer you say? A naive speculator on human nature? Yes, damn it. Yes..

[Methuselah]

Microsoft hatred isn't a disease, it's logic.
However, hating Microsoft won't prevent me from welcoming their contributions WHEN it will be helpful to my cause.
But when you're dealing with a company that has, in the past, almost declared war on the open source community and has a history of anti-competitive practice, it behooves you to be careful in dealing with them.

Who has been suing vendors using linux and the vfat filesystem in GPS devices?
So should we just turn a blind eye and be blissfully ignorant to potential threats elsewhere?
Cautioning against these potential pitfalls is not 'hating all things Microsoft', it's being responsible.

So, I think some people view all objections to things microsoft related as stemming from some irrational hatred.
But I think that is just a matter of ignorance on their parts.

[DeadSuperHero]

What bothers me more is how little hate Apple gets half the time for their own vendor lock-in policies.

[andrew.g]

What bothers me more is how little hate Apple gets half the time for their own vendor lock-in policies.

What bothers me more is how Microsoft has gone about trying to get the same "vendor lock-in policies" that Apple enjoys, but everybody wants to bury their collective heads in the sand and deny it. Poor Microsoft.

Apple controls hardware, software and the sales channel for the majority of their products. Given half a chance Microsoft would do the same. They already control the majority of oems. Do people not notice this?

It's that old cliche, two wrongs don't make a right. I eschew products and services from both companies. But to say Apple is worse than Microsoft when they both should be viewed in the same light beggars belief.

[toupeiro]

that's kind of like putting hot fudge on a bologna sandwich.

:lolflag:

[zekopeko]

This.

Would people buy a car from a known convicted (numerous times) criminal ?

You do realize you are talking about a transnational company compromised of networked divisions that employ ~90000 people? Your analogy can't apply in this case. MS is a corporation not a person.

[zekopeko]

Like his comment about KDE being better then Gnome and him turning around soon after KDE4 came out

And it was his personal preference at the time of KDE3 and GNOME2.
A person has the right to re-evaluate her position when confronted with new information.

[zekopeko]

What is Microsoft hatred anyway?

Isn't despise of being offered computers with MS Windows preinstalled practically as the only option?


Isn't it hatred of Silverlight that doesn't play nicely with Linux?

You do know about the Moonlight project right? If you get it from the Novell website Microsoft is actually paying for the codecs that are packaged with it so that you can watch online video's. They have also release code under a open source licence to help the project. Mind boggling, isn't it?

Isn't it hatred of viruses and the rest of malware?

That hate should be direct for the most part at people who write said code. MS should be frowned upon for poor security, though.


Isn't it hatred of their patents that allow them to hinder development of Linux and to sue Linux any time they want?

Why limit hate for patent to a single company? It's obvious that they suck for every one.

Isn't it hatred of Steve Ballmer personally? :P
But don't you just love watching him sweet and yell? :lolflag:


The list can go on and on. Why is this a disease?

Wikipedia qoute:

A disease or medical problem is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions, associated with specific symptoms and signs.[1][2][3] It may be caused by external factors, such as invading organisms, or it may be caused by internal dysfunctions, such as autoimmune diseases.

Linus was refering to the parts of our community that hurt us more then they help us. An autoimmune disease if you will.

[zekopeko]

What bothers me more is how little hate Apple gets half the time for their own vendor lock-in policies.

That's because they look good doing it :P

[zekopeko]

That would be like pornotube getting away from porn, and doing independent films. You guys are a little to late for that now.

Well, there are some of us that believe in second chances.

[CharmyBee]

As long as you're sensational and you've got Gen Y/Z-user driven news sites and social networks, you can make any _company_name_ hatred for more than the reality. I've seen Comcast and Seagate get ton of flak just for one thing as if they were the devil. Microsoft did do evil things indeed (the Netscape vs. IE fiasco of the 90s are still the biggest evil thing), but that doesn't make them heartless jerks with the sole intent of ruining the world. They're a business. They're trying to make money, and it seems to be working well for them.

[Twitch6000]

That would be like pornotube getting away from porn, and doing independent films. You guys are a little to late for that now.

Oh really?

I have been going on that site for quiet some now and I see it being alot more mature.

Infact now i am seeing alot of good ideas popping up over there.

Heck I am thinking about signing up on that site for some mature debate.

As for what Linus said,I agree 100%

[aesis05401]

i use reiserfs, so probably.

ROFLCopter.

[JDShu]

i use reiserfs, so probably.

Gold.

Torvalds always seems to make sense, I dunno why.

[andrew.g]

As long as you're sensational and you've got Gen Y/Z-user driven news sites and social networks, you can make any _company_name_ hatred for more than the reality. I've seen Comcast and Seagate get ton of flak just for one thing as if they were the devil. Microsoft did do evil things indeed (the Netscape vs. IE fiasco of the 90s are still the biggest evil thing), but that doesn't make them heartless jerks with the sole intent of ruining the world. They're a business. They're trying to make money, and it seems to be working well for them.

Poor Microsoft, so misunderstood, again. Anything else? Excuses?

[betrunkenaffe]

it might be more like someone switching to low tar cigarettes.

Or cigars. You stick both in your mouth and burn them both, but they aren't the same thing.

[mamamia88]

how is a company bundling it's own browser with it's own operating system a bad thing?

[DeadSuperHero]

how is a company bundling it's own browser with it's own operating system a bad thing?

Somebody clearly thinks it's antitrust. GAAAH! NOT THAT!

I mean, if the KDE project were really the KDE Corporation, and had a proprietary desktop operating system that dominated the computing industry, you'd have the same GNU zealots waving their arms and screaming, "Oh, that's anti-trust!"

I wonder if the EU will start requiring Windows to ship with alternative desktops because that also has a death grip on the market.

Some people...

[bodhi.zazen]

If you've been keeping up with Linus over the years, then you'll see that just about everything he says ends up being controversial. The guy is a human being. He's fickle sometimes. Other times he says goofy things like the OpenBSD developers are masturbating monkeys. He's practical, diplomatic, funny, and articulate--that's why I read the headlines when his name pops up. I want a good laugh, or I want an equally intelligence counterpoint. But just because he's the benevolent dictator of the kernel, it doesn't mean that he speaks and we're all expected to tow the line. I think he'd find this annoying.

Preamble concluded, I don't agree with him on this issue. While I think that uninformed fanboys of any camp are equally annoying (probably the very folks he's making reference to), I don't think that hating Microsoft is a disease. As a few people have pointed out, their business practices are historically horrendous (which I won't ennumerate here). That certainly raises my disdain, and certainly other massive corporations are no saints, but it's not the reason I hate them.

I hate them because they've fleeced the world for over 20 years by selling patches to their broken software as new products. I hate them because they constantly reinvent the wheel and put their company logo on it. I hate them because they attempt to hijack open standards or create their own standards and API's to eclipse ones that are inherently open. I hate them because they have held back the pursuit and development of meaningful software due to their capitalistic model of stagnation (operating systems don't need to be sold anymore--go back to writing software!). I detest their buisness end, and I hate their products. Why do I even care?

I'm a technofuturist, and by extention, a philosopher. I see computing (along with a handful of other technologies) as being transformative to our world and transformative to the human condition. Now what's that mean? Simply, technology (especially information technology) takes a problematic, disparate, and xenophobic world and draws us closer through virtual presence--that is, it connects us.

The metaphor finds real extension and expression beyond language. It puts knowledge at our fingertips in a way that the world has never seen. It allows the oppressed to speak using a voice that can finally be heard globally. It exposes evil and those who hide it. It dissolves the Old World barriers that have generationally put us at each other's throats. It tears down walls. It builds entire communities (like this one, based on help, mutual respect, and enthusiasm). It wires our eyes, our nerves, and our brains into it's own circuitry, symbiotically stretching our senses over its pathways to perceive a larger whole.

We miss it. We look but we don't see it. We blink and it's gone. We watch videos of monkeys peeing on themselves, and we forget--that is if we ever knew to begin with--what we have here, and what it will someday be when it ceases to be a curiosity, a product, or a tool of simple amusement. For this reason, it needs to be open. It needs to be accessible. It needs to be free to do the very thing that it was intended for (but will evolve beyond): to connect things with each other.

Utopian dreamer you say? A naive speculator on human nature? Yes, damn it. Yes..


Microsoft hatred isn't a disease, it's logic.
However, hating Microsoft won't prevent me from welcoming their contributions WHEN it will be helpful to my cause.
But when you're dealing with a company that has, in the past, almost declared war on the open source community and has a history of anti-competitive practice, it behooves you to be careful in dealing with them.

Who has been suing vendors using linux and the vfat filesystem in GPS devices?
So should we just turn a blind eye and be blissfully ignorant to potential threats elsewhere?
Cautioning against these potential pitfalls is not 'hating all things Microsoft', it's being responsible.

So, I think some people view all objections to things microsoft related as stemming from some irrational hatred.
But I think that is just a matter of ignorance on their parts.

Let's stop for a minute. Who are you trying to convince.

Windows "fan boys (and girls)" ? I doubt these arguments will sway those folks.

Linux "fan boys (and girls)" ? Preaching to the choir.

Everybody else ? I do not think these arguments put our "best foot forward" . When you make these statements to the general public you are likely to come across as simply ranting.

I think it is better to speak of the advantages of Linux to those who seem interested. This way you are less likely to come across as ranting and neither of your posts speak of the (many) advantages of Linux.

[Tipped OuT]

Wow... just look at the crazy responses here. :shock:

I'm keeping out of this one.

[DeadSuperHero]

Wow... just look at the crazy responses here.

I'm keeping out of this one.

Just upping the post count, then?

[Viva]

how is a company bundling it's own browser with it's own operating system a bad thing?

Read up on it buddy. Building their own browser was not the problem, but using their OS monopoly to monopolize the browser market was. As was forcing OEMs to install their browser and punishing them for installing netscape.

[DeadSuperHero]

Read up on it buddy. Building their own browser was not the problem, but using their OS monopoly to monopolize the browser market was. As was forcing OEMs to install their browser and punishing them for installing netscape.

While the latter of that is understandable, I myself fail to understand as to why an OS vendor can't include their own browser with their system NOW. Windows 7 allows a user to completely remove IE anyways, so why is it a big deal NOW? I certainly don't see you complaining about how Apple includes Safari by default, or that Android phones basically use a browser akin to Chromium. In a society where one can manage their own software entirely by themselves, "Forcing users to use the bundled browser" doesn't quite cut it as an argument anymore. One can just as easily download and install Firefox, Safari, Chromium, or one of the dozens of browsers available for Windows.

Help me understand why this is a problem NOW, instead of THEN.

[Giant Speck]

This entire thread makes me want to vomit.

[Tipped OuT]

Just upping the post count, then?

No, just stating my opinion about this thread. Also, you don't get a higher post count in Recurring Discussions, Community Cafe, and other non helping sections of the forum.

Funny how you didn't even want to include my name with the quote. But that's not even important, just ranting.

And with that, I say good bye to this thread. I don't want to get involved in anything else.

-TT

[Icehuck]

While the latter of that is understandable, I myself fail to understand as to why an OS vendor can't include their own browser with their system NOW. Windows 7 allows a user to completely remove IE anyways, so why is it a big deal NOW? I certainly don't see you complaining about how Apple includes Safari by default, or that Android phones basically use a browser akin to Chromium. In a society where one can manage their own software entirely by themselves, "Forcing users to use the bundled browser" doesn't quite cut it as an argument anymore. One can just as easily download and install Firefox, Safari, Chromium, or one of the dozens of browsers available for Windows.

Help me understand why this is a problem NOW, instead of THEN.

I fail to understand how this was even a problem back then. The fact that IE was tied into an OS did not stop me from discovering Netscape. The only thing it made me do was laugh at Opera's pitiful attempt to sell me something that others either included in their OS or gave away for free. Opera was the biggest whiner then, and they still are the biggest whiner now.

[moster]

Steve Ballmer: "Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches".


He did not really mean that, it is all business :confused:


To all those who have Ubuntu installed: You have a CANCER!

[raronson]

While the latter of that is understandable, I myself fail to understand as to why an OS vendor can't include their own browser with their system NOW. Windows 7 allows a user to completely remove IE anyways, so why is it a big deal NOW? I certainly don't see you complaining about how Apple includes Safari by default, or that Android phones basically use a browser akin to Chromium. In a society where one can manage their own software entirely by themselves, "Forcing users to use the bundled browser" doesn't quite cut it as an argument anymore. One can just as easily download and install Firefox, Safari, Chromium, or one of the dozens of browsers available for Windows.

Help me understand why this is a problem NOW, instead of THEN.

The problem was not with bundling--the problem was that it was too difficult to "turn off" and invoke another solution. Of course, this is from the perspective of the average user, who will do little more to their default install than change the wallpaper. Knowing this, Netscape and others cried foul because Microsoft was using its desktop leverage to impose standards on the web through Internet Explorer. The feature encroach posed by IE, and the competition with open standards which they were designing and redefining to be tied to IE instead of inherently open. The most important, and most overlooked, point is that the World Wide Web itself needs to come before the needs of any single browser. Tim Berners Lee did not invent the protocol and application to work only his NeXT box, or only for other people who used NeXT boxes. He purposefully created an open standard--and if you read his philosophy of what the World Wide Web is and believe in his vision, you'll have serious disdain for any entity which seeks to subvert it for profit.

[aesis05401]

This entire thread makes me want to vomit.

Not me. This is progress.

[raronson]

A follow up to my previous post. What if, after the Summerians invented the wheel and it had long been in use, the Babylonians came along, conquered the world, and had a brilliant new design for a wheel which they imposed on all territories? This wheel, instead of being round, was round with spikes coming out of it for better traction. Let's say on all major trade routes they had slaves dig evenly spaced holes which took up the entire road to accommodate their new spiked wheel. For the Babylonians, they owned the road, but it was a bumpy ride (even though they wouldn't admit it). And for everyone else still using the old style wheel, the new holes everywhere all over the road made it unbearable to travel on, and thus disrupted their business.

[moster]

@raronson
Someone will not understand even if you draw him a picture.

[TheNosh]

I fail to understand how this was even a problem back then. The fact that IE was tied into an OS did not stop me from discovering Netscape. The only thing it made me do was laugh at Opera's pitiful attempt to sell me something that others either included in their OS or gave away for free. Opera was the biggest whiner then, and they still are the biggest whiner now.

i don't know much about their history, but opera is free these days, and fast as hell. i'm not sure what you calling "whining" now

[Giant Speck]

Not me. This is progress.

It's not progress. Do you really think what Mr. Torvalds said is really going to change anything? Just look at this thread alone. All it did is spark the same old argument that has been going on for quite some time now.

[aesis05401]

It's not progress. Do you really think what Mr. Torvalds said is really going to change anything? Just look at this thread alone. All it did is spark the same old argument that has been going on for quite some time now.

Your post is totally sensible, but also really defeatist.

We cannot ignore the fact that our community has a very deep rift between the dedicated ideological members and the productivity oriented members.

Mr. Torvalds is addressing a real issue in a productive manner despite the fact that flames will ensue.. And no one here has made any statements that are going to get them banned... so we are doing alright.

This is much more civilized discourse on this topic than could be found anywhere five years ago.

[raronson]

Your post is totally sensible, but also really defeatist.

We cannot ignore the fact that our community has a very deep rift between the dedicated ideological members and the productivity oriented members.

Mr. Torvalds is addressing a real issue in a productive manner despite the fact that flames will ensue.. And no one here has made any statements that are going to get them banned... so we are doing alright.

This is much more civilized discourse on this topic than could be found anywhere five years ago.

Well said. I don't have to deal with Microsoft and other outside entities on a daily basis. I can afford to be idealistic, whereas Linus has to be diplomatic and pragmatic. We need the full spectrum of opinions and ideas--even the extremes. We need people like Richard Stallman, who will always argue for freedom over compromise. Likewise, we need the opinions of people who just don't see the big deal with some of the issues that the extremists rant about. The community can accommodate all voices.

[MikeTheC]

If "Microsoft hatred" is a disease, then I'm one diseased son-of-a-gun.

[Sublime Porte]

linus torvalds: "microsoft is a disease"

Agreed.

Come on, I don't know why people take Linus' opinions about such things so seriously. Although the guy wrote a kernel, he really hasn't had as much input to the GNU/Linux system/philosophy that people give him credit for. He's a coder, not an ideologue.

Stallman is the founder of the philosophy behind Open Source software (even if some have disowned him for some reason or another). I think his views on Microsoft would deserve a lot more attention than this view.

[moster]

It is sad that I have to explain this on linux forum, but here it is.

Imagine world with total microsoft domination. You would must rent their software and with music/movie industry hand in hand computer would be money sucking machine!

Imagine now total opposite. Open source everything. Is really that bad? Of course it has some down sides because developers must earn for living but not in microsoft way for sure.

Lets round it and say we are now in between. Why is that? I can see that many people here still not understand that only law and us stand in way of microsoft. An law can be bend by blatantly rich microsoft. It leaves only us to raise voice and ask for freedom.

I sorry, but microsoft is using every way possible to TAKE MY MONEY from me and he succeded several days before because I buy EeePC with XP on it. I had really no choice because where I live. I could buy online but it would cost me even more then.

Now, do I have every right to call microsoft M$CROSOFT? To all you M$ lovers, I wish you pure M$ world. Hope you'll be happy :D hehe

[TheNosh]

Stallman is the founder of the philosophy behind Open Source software (even if some have disowned him for some reason or another). I think his views on Microsoft would deserve a lot more attention than this view.

not all who believe in open source have the same exact views. Stallman does not dictate what we think. follow your own views, not linus torvalds's, not Richard Stallmans. if your views happen to be the same as one of theirs on something, fine, but think for yourself.

as for Linus's involvement in the GNU/Linux system/philosophy, i'd say he had quite a bit to do with the linux parts of the system (the frickin kernel)

[jonian_g]

If Microsoft ever does applications for Linux it means I've won.
Linus Torvalds

[aikiwolfie]

I love it when Linus Torvalds comes out with statements like this. All the Linux faithful suddenly become fair minded nicer than nice folk all making comments about how they love ripping the **** out of Windows for it's faults but they accept Windows has it's place and it's part to play.

Shame it doesn't last.

Linus is being diplomatic. That's the great thing about a free and open community. You can be whatever you want to be. You can love the things you love and hate the things you hate. No shame in that at all. When you become a personality however. You need to be careful with what you say.

Windows is a piece of software I do hate. It's buggy and unstable. Windows 7 is better. But it took a serious competitive threat to force Microsoft into producing Windows 7. Which is why I hate Microsoft.

They serve themselves. Not their customers. Microsoft are not interested in you or your needs or wants. Only your bank balance. That is why I hate Microsoft. They seek to control people through technology purely for their own selfish profit. They turn technology that should enable people to live better lives into a cage.

I personally believe that is wrong and should not be tolerated.

[toupeiro]

I don't mind if Microsoft develops FOSS applications, or tries to submit changes to the Linux kernel. This is a great success for everyone, regardless of what the code is intended to do

What I hate about Microsoft is their traditional business model, their traditional business ethics, and how they've exercised both of those elements into their products over the years. That being said, they have a resume of mass-market software products and a utilization rate which no-body can match. Some of those products are great, and others are pretty terrible. I think the closed-source development Microsoft has traditionally done is like having tunnel vision. What they've failed to realize is that even if they begin to open their code up, people will still buy their products because they are Microsoft. They would still be the maintainers of their own products, and people would still want Enterprise support for those products. Opening their code would honestly make that code tighter, more secure, and more cross functional. This is one Microsoft baby-step in the right direction. I hope to see more of it, as long as they use GPL.

People treat Linus like some sort of technology prophet, but thats not what he is, and I don't believe that's what he wants to represent. Its easy to poke fun at Microsoft. Thats why he has done it. Quoting him on things he's said to that effect in the past only proves that point more. Linus is a pretty regular guy who had the ambition and technical knowledge to see his projects through to completion, which turned out to have unprecedented impact on the technology world. It doesn't make his words law, and it doesn't mean we should all follow his ideals. To me, what he said was more common sense than anything. Sure their are rifts in the FOSS community as have been pointed out, Those same rifts exist in closed source projects as well. The particular point, in this case, is that If you hate Microsoft enough to condemn them on the basis of who they are from contributing code to the model and ideology we use and promote, then you care more about sticking it to "the man" than making things better for everyone. If your hatred for Microsoft is that deeply rooted, then it is true that hatred is like a disease.

On a side note: The OP's article is relatively new, and the largest posting in the forums I've found about it. So, why is it in reoccuring discussions? I kind of dislike the reoccuring discussions forum, because moderators seem to bury threads here to die, even if they are active and somewhat different from other posts.

[aesis05401]

On a side note: The OP's article is relatively new, and the largest posting in the forums I've found about it. So, why is it in reoccuring discussions? I kind of dislike the reoccuring discussions forum, because moderators seem to bury threads here to die, even if they are active and somewhat different from other posts.

The argument for doing this is pretty solid IMO. We are discussing this on a help forum... Where people who have never heard of any of these issues are coming for assistance configuring their new OS.

[moster]

The argument for doing this is pretty solid IMO. We are discussing this on a help forum... Where people who have never heard of any of these issues are coming for assistance configuring their new OS.

Oh, you really did see it with beginers eyes. I was not. I got to tell you, you have some hidden talent in you. But in the other hand, maybe it is better to immediately show newcomers way of dealing things in here :D

[Sublime Porte]

not all who believe in open source have the same exact views. Stallman does not dictate what we think. follow your own views

I don't disagree with this whatsoever, and I did not suggest we should just be parrots of "stallmanism", but the reality is that he has been most instrumental in bringing the Open Source movement, and the OS that we call Linux into being. I certainly don't agree with him on all his viewpoints, but he's a visionary, and without someone like him, it's highly unlikely Torvalds' kernel would've ever been anything more than a University project.


as for Linus's involvement in the GNU/Linux system/philosophy, i'd say he had quite a bit to do with the linux parts of the system (the frickin kernel)

Whilst the kernel is indeed important, it is most certainly not the system. Just as an example. most would still consider BSD to be Unix, yet BSD completely wrote their own kernel (the Mach kernel). Operating System implies the entire system. Any one component of that system can change without it really becoming a whole new OS, even the kernel.

Pretty much all Open Source OS's use the GNU system, not all use the Linux kernel.

[MikeTheC]

I don't mind if Microsoft develops FOSS applications, or tries to submit changes to the Linux kernel. This is a great success for everyone, regardless of what the code is intended to do
Yeah, because then everything is on the table, and I guarantee all the code they submit to F/OSS will be *very* heavily scrutinized before it gets included anywhere.


What I hate about Microsoft is their traditional business model, their traditional business ethics, and how they've exercised both of those elements into their products over the years.

+1 to that.

[TheNosh]

I don't disagree with this whatsoever, and I did not suggest we should just be parrots of "stallmanism", but the reality is that he has been most instrumental in bringing the Open Source movement, and the OS that we call Linux into being. I certainly don't agree with him on all his viewpoints, but he's a visionary, and without someone like him, it's highly unlikely Torvalds' kernel would've ever been anything more than a University project.

more likely someone would find a way to use it as the kernal for a system with everything else coming from BSD. it might not be as popular as it ended up being, but it would certainly still be available.



Whilst the kernel is indeed important, it is most certainly not the system. Just as an example. most would still consider BSD to be Unix, yet BSD completely wrote their own kernel (the Mach kernel). Operating System implies the entire system. Any one component of that system can change without it really becoming a whole new OS, even the kernel.

i didn't say it was the system, i said it was a major part of it

and the Mach kernal is a microkernel replacement for the BSD kernel if i'm not mistaken.


Pretty much all Open Source OS's use the GNU system, not all use the Linux kernel.

http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html


BSD systems today use some GNU programs, just as the GNU system and its variants use some BSD programs; however, taken as wholes, they are two different systems that evolved separately. The BSD developers did not write a kernel and add it to the GNU system, and a name like GNU/BSD would not fit the situation

i'd argue that withought GNU they could probably fill in the missing bits if they had to.

i like GNU a lot, and i'm very happy with what it has done. but let's not pretend that it's the be all and end all of free open source software

[moster]

not all who believe in open source have the same exact views. Stallman does not dictate what we think. follow your own views, not linus torvalds's, not Richard Stallmans. if your views happen to be the same as one of theirs on something, fine, but think for yourself.

as for Linus's involvement in the GNU/Linux system/philosophy, i'd say he had quite a bit to do with the linux parts of the system (the frickin kernel)

Look at it in this way. Linux is heart and GNU is everything else. That is why it is called GNU/Linux. What part do you not understand? Do you think GNOME is not GNU maybe? :D

[TheNosh]

Look at it in this way. Linux is heart and GNU is everything else. That is why it is called GNU/Linux. What part do you not understand? Do you think GNOME is not GNU maybe? :D

i'm very aware that GNOME is GNU, GNU just wasn't bolded because it wasn't the part i was adressing. i realize that GNU is important i was just trying to point out that the Kernel is an important part of the OS and deserves recognition as it is certainly part of the system

[moster]

Linux is important. But in the future it can be replaced with new better one kernel. Maybe with some that can be more easily debug. And GNU can be replaced only with windows :D

[TheNosh]

Linux is important. But in the future it can be replaced with new better one. GNU can be replaced only with windows :D

that smiley better mean you're joking. it could be replaced by BSD, or maybe something new entirely.

there are very few things in this world that cannot be replaced, that does not make their functions any more or les important

[moster]

that smiley better mean you're joking. it could be replaced by BSD, or maybe something new entirely.

there are very few things in this world that cannot be replaced, that does not make their functions any more or les important

I am not joking. I see I will have to draw you a picture.

Most of applications have GPL licence. That mean Gnu Public Licence. If you delete all of those and leave only one that have BSD licence there would not much left.

Ok, we have Mac too, except windows. I was wrong :D

[TheNosh]

I am not joking. I see I will have to draw you a picture.

Most of applications have GPL licence. That mean Gnu Public Licence. If you delete all of those and leave only one that have BSD licence there would not much left.

Ok, we have Mac too, except windows. I was wrong :D

i'm aware of the licensing. GPL is actually General Public license. (and yes i know it was created by stallman, hence it usually being called the "GNU general public license)

also, not everything using that license is a result of the GNU project. for instance, the Linux kernel uses GPL, but it was made by Linus. the GNU project's kernel from the free software foundation is the HURD kernel

also i meant long term, nothing is not replaceable given time and developement (hence my suggestion of something new entirely)

[moster]

i'm aware of the licensing. GPL is actually General Public license. (and yes i know it was created by stallman, hence it usually being called the "GNU general public license)

also, not everything using that license is a result of the GNU project. for instance, the Linux kernel uses GPL, but it was made by Linus. the GNU project's kernel from the free software foundation is the HURD kernel

also i meant long term, nothing is not replaceable given time and developement (hence my suggestion of something new entirely)

In the begining there was only GNU against proprietary. They had everything but kernel. BSD had his licencing issues and they choose linux. Not linux choose them. Now, you said it can be replaced. Well, we disagree, and that is Ok. There will always be different opinions.

[TheNosh]

that is Ok. There will always be different opinions.

that part i can completely agree with

[Copernicus1234]

Good article. I have to say that yes, I am being hypocritical when it comes to Microsoft, but only because they try to make it look like they are helping the Linux community, when they really just want people to pick their virtual machine solution. Once users have, they make sure the users gets locked in and unable to choose another solution without much effort. Thats what they do.

If I had developed a good program, I would want people to pick that program because its the best, not because its too difficult for them to choose something else. Thats what I dont like about Microsoft. They are never the best at anything, yet tons of people use their crap since its included in Windows. In a free market, the best programs should be the most used.

[moster]

They called me thief for using their software in home use without pay and when I go away from them they cry what will developers eat if everybody go away and use free software.

So, I must use their software to feed their army of developers? What is this, tax for fools or charity?

[Grenage]

They called me thief for using their software in home use without pay

If you didn't pay for it, you err, are a thief.

[moster]

If you didn't pay for it, you err, are a thief.

Look, it was not like I stole something from hard working men. Microsoft is convicted felon, not me. If you not been on mars, you should know that they was stealing money from people trough monopoly. But, I go away becuase I did not want to be on their even trial software. And for goodbye from microsoft preinstalled WinXP in my Eeepc. I could not get it without it. HAHA, what irony. I will never go back even if they give me every version of windows now and future. :D

[chriswyatt]

Linus sounds like an intelligent guy. I must admit some of the Microsoft hatred I see on these boards does make me cringe sometimes.

[Pogeymanz]

Who cares! Who cares what Linus says! Who cares if someone Loves Microsoft! Who cares if someone hates Microsoft! Who cares if people say "m$"! I think caring about the fact that someone said "M$" is WAY more immature, and petty, than actually saying it. Do people really have nothing better to do with there lives than going around giving a crap if someone says "M$". This is the 1000th time I've seen this discussion, and it's getting retarded. Really listen to yourselves, and think how you come off when you argue about dumb stuff like this. Really? No Really?


Quoted for truth. I find the people who jump on someone's back for saying M$ WAY more annoying than any fanboy. Every time I see a "microsuck" or "M$" I know that there will be at least 5 posts calling him/her immature instead of answering the damn question he/she was asking.

[howlingmadhowie]

It needs to be free to do the very thing that it was intended for (but will evolve beyond): to connect things with each other.

Utopian dreamer you say? A naive speculator on human nature? Yes, damn it. Yes..

if you don't know lawrence lessig, look him up. you'll like him.

http://www.lessig.org/

[raronson]

Let's stop for a minute. Who are you trying to convince.

Windows "fan boys (and girls)" ? I doubt these arguments will sway those folks.

Linux "fan boys (and girls)" ? Preaching to the choir.

Everybody else ? I do not think these arguments put our "best foot forward" . When you make these statements to the general public you are likely to come across as simply ranting.

I think it is better to speak of the advantages of Linux to those who seem interested. This way you are less likely to come across as ranting and neither of your posts speak of the (many) advantages of Linux.

All I'm saying is, "look at it this way." A simple rant would provide no justification, no larger vision. At worst, someone might look and say, "wow, some of these Linux guys are nuts." While someone else may just get excited about the ideals of FOSS and my somewhat unique take on it.

If I were new, what I'd get from your post is that someone was just used the big Don't Think Stick.

[raronson]

if you don't know lawrence lessig, look him up. you'll like him.

http://www.lessig.org/

I wasn't familiar with Lessig, but you're right. Thanks very much :)

[zekopeko]

Look, it was not like I stole something from hard working men. Microsoft is convicted felon, not me. If you not been on mars, you should know that they was stealing money from people trough monopoly.

Yes you did steal something from hard working men/women. Pretending that MS doesn't have 1000's of developers doesn't make your "logic" any more convincing.
If you steal something from a convicted felon you are still a thief no matter how much you try to downplay the action by claiming he/she is a convicted felon.
A convicted felon by definition was given a sentence/punishment for his actions. The debt to society was payed and cannot be used to explain your own felony.

[jonian_g]

The debt to society was payed

Not yet. That's why they still have problems with EU Commission. I don't know if they have anything pending in the US.

[bodhi.zazen]

Look, it was not like I stole something from hard working men. Microsoft is convicted felon, not me. If you not been on mars, you should know that they was stealing money from people trough monopoly. But, I go away becuase I did not want to be on their even trial software. And for goodbye from microsoft preinstalled WinXP in my Eeepc. I could not get it without it. HAHA, what irony. I will never go back even if they give me every version of windows now and future. :D

Two wrongs do not make a right.

[Grenage]

Look, it was not like I stole something from hard working men. Microsoft is convicted felon, not me. If you not been on mars, you should know that they was stealing money from people trough monopoly.

You're still a thief; if you don't like the company, don't use their software.

[zekopeko]

Not yet. That's why they still have problems with EU Commission. I don't know if they have anything pending in the US.

That's a separate offense. You can't be tried for the same crime twice. That applies in US and EU.

[Grenage]

Dont call me thief you mor*n. If you do not get it, I am on linux.

You said you installed Windows without paying for it; no matter what other OSs you might happen to use, it still makes you a thief.

[moster]

You said you installed Windows without paying for it; no matter what other OSs you might happen to use, it still makes you a thief.

I must control myself because people like you. There is ways of "trying" software... 30-90 day depend what version of their crap you install. And windows server you can prolong even more. But it not usually last even so long.

[Grenage]

They called me thief for using their software in home use without pay

Well if you aren't using it illegally, there's no problem, is there? The quote above implied you were using it as such; who called you a thief for using trial software for the trial period?

[zekopeko]

Dont call me thief you mor*n. If you do not get it, I am on linux. I have it legal now, but I legally throw it away.

That's not what you said. That you are using Linux doesn't absolve from your other wrongdoings.

[moster]

I never stole something in my life and now I being called thief from freakin microsoft activists? I will remember you.

[Grenage]

Well now you're just contradicting yourself, way to get your point across.

[moster]

Read my previous posts. I buy it indirectly when I bought eeepc. It came legally with computer. Now, I have it, but I do not need it anymore.

You can install it illegaly, but they came with wonderfull idea and leave so much security holes that you must pay it or run trial to get to the windows update. They never actually see my money till that last one. And I will make sure they do not in the future.

[bodhi.zazen]

Lets get this conversation back "'on topic" please.

[measekite]

I rip the p*** out of windows for its various faults, but I also understand that it has its place. I dislike Microsoft's business practices and also think they're a bit crap at producing secure software, but also don't buy the rabid anti-MS stuff that goes on (though I buy even less the anti-Linux ranting that MS users can indulge in). They've made genuine contributions in bringing computing to the masses through usability, if not by other means, and Linux wouldn't be as good as it is now if it hadn't had Windows to compete against.

I also do not like MS business practices. I also think Windows is programmed like crap and the registry is a hodge podge of garbage.

But I also think that Windows looks nice. I think that MS Access is the best desktop database. I think that Photoshop is better than Gimp but not for hundreds of dollars. I think Windows has its place and there are a greater variety of books and other help for the non computer person.

And Visual Basic and Visual Studio is a great development tool that I wish Linux had.

But after dual booting for 2.5 years I removed Windows from my computer and use Linux exclusively. Actually I almost never dual booted when I had it available. Linux is a far better OS.

[raronson]

I had a friend that was a MCSE and we used to talk a lot. He gave me a book, which I don't recall the title to, which explained the various components of the Windows architecture from an engineering perspective.

One thing I actually walked away admiring was the design of the registry. Certainly it has its faults and it's not well organized, but it's not a bad idea. They just need to secure it and keep outside code running as Admin from writing system-wide values and things of that nature.

If it were restricted to applets in the control panel-only for system values and then sectioned off for third party software, then I think it could very nice for administering or tinkering with the system. Now don't me wrong, I prefer the UNIX way for a lot of reasons, but the registry's actually a pretty nice idea in that it takes all of the config-type files and puts them into one box (though conversely, it could be a single point of failure since it's a binary database). Unfortunately, it's just poorly implemented, relies too much on obfuscation, and has too much potential to bork the system through bugs, bad calls to it (and moreso with third-party code), or outright malice.

[starcannon]

Man, could that lesson be applied to a bunch around here.

Awaiting the instant reversal of numerous half-decade Micro-phobes.

There is nothing that can be done then; if a group you have labled as "Micro-phobes" does not come around to your, erm, Linus's way of thinking, then they are scoffed at, if they do come around... they are scoffed at. So what exactly is your proposal to make people who are willing to change their minds after being given new data to do.

There is no "shame" in changing ones mind after recieving compelling input, indeed it would be shameful not to. But while linus is very intelligent, and should be given serious consideration, him simply saying a thing does not make it true. Indeed, I'm sure if you have read his posts, you will see that in the past he has been known to act quite incongruously with his intelligence, and he has even been wrong on occassion.

So back to where I was, you have put those who could be swayed in a no win situation, if they change their mind, scorn; if they don't change their mind, scorn.
You say they need a lesson; what lesson do they need? A lesson in creating a larger more open Operating System Community? Or a lesson in humbling themselves to you?

Food for thought,
GL

[aesis05401]

Quoted for truth. I find the people who jump on someone's back for saying M$ WAY more annoying than any fanboy. Every time I see a "microsuck" or "M$" I know that there will be at least 5 posts calling him/her immature instead of answering the damn question he/she was asking.

Yes, the situation you describe is annoying. On the other hand, our community is more invested in symbolic abstraction than any other field except maybe ethics/philosophy type fields.

Choosing to write M$ can be a different thing for the person writing it.

- Maybe the person has a legitimate personal beef with Microsoft and writing M$ helps them blow off a little steam.
- Maybe they are new to the FOSS/Proprietary game and are simply repeating what they heard elsewhere.
- Maybe they are trying to start a fight.
- Maybe they are making a joke...
- ... <insert your own rationale here> ...

The problem is on the reader's end.

Do we really expect the movers and shakers in our community - the ones who perform symbolic expansion inside their skulls thousands of time a day while coding/debugging/prototyping - to gloss over the fact that there is a deliberately mangled symbol on the screen in front of them?

Just a thought.

[shadylookin]

I guess if it's consuming your every thought or you personally do harm to yourself because of your hatred it might be like a disease. However I think Microsoft has done(still does) plenty of illegal and shady things and I think there deserving of quite a bit of hate.

[aesis05401]

I never stole something in my life and now I being called thief from freakin microsoft activists? I will remember you.

Hello moster,

I hope you will not allow yourself to be too burdened. There are many more of these conversations to come - whether on these boards or others.

If we tally every jab we will have time for nothing but comparing our tallies ;)

I hope the weather is nice where you are - and thank you for the comment earlier. I took it as a compliment.

[moster]

@aesis
It was a compliment and thank you for this one. There is one adage on my mind (if that is right word). I think it will fit right into this topic. Here it is:

"If you deal with garbage, you get dirty."

:D

[MikeTheC]

How about we just do this to Redmond (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9u-MaNNDnU) and then we can all get back on with our lives here in F/OSS-ville and also in Cupertino.

[moster]

Maybe just this for start.... Aaah, I am going to bed and forget this awful thread... Good night people.

[DeadSuperHero]

How about we just do this to Redmond (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9u-MaNNDnU) and then we can all get back on with our lives here in F/OSS-ville and also in Cupertino.

Because killing people solves problems, right?

*looks back through history in which killing millions of people of one demographic ever solved anything*

Oh wait, nope.

Also, Cupertino (Apple) is just as guilty of locking down software and hardware from the user. Hate to break it to you, but they're not the Messiah, either.

[Garrovick]

I started in computers using DOS. Both Windows and Linux are the new kids on the block.

Windows started out as a DOS front end, and at the time there was another DOS front end I liked more, can't remember the name now though. Linux, when I first heard and read about it was for computer programmers who want to see code run.

Now today, new kids post hate about MS because they think it's what the are supposed to do to be "cool".

MS moved forward toward the real life day to day computer user. Linux chose to stay in the lab.

The man is correct, "Microsoft Hatred Is a Disease"

[moster]

We cannot help each other free, because they cannot charge then for their services. It is simple as that.

Mr. Psycho, there are different business rules/laws for monopolist and for others. I thought it was obvius, but I see now that has to be told. That is why Apple nobody ask anything.

[starcannon]

Quoted for truth. I find the people who jump on someone's back for saying M$ WAY more annoying than any fanboy. Every time I see a "microsuck" or "M$" I know that there will be at least 5 posts calling him/her immature instead of answering the damn question he/she was asking.

Agreed; the anti-zealot zealots are far more annoying than the zealots ever have been. Indeed, I see the zeal of a new Linux user oddly endearing, while I see the zeal of an anti-zealot as joykill.

[starcannon]

I started in computers using DOS. Both Windows and Linux are the new kids on the block.

Windows started out as a DOS front end, and at the time there was another DOS front end I liked more, can't remember the name now though. Linux, when I first heard and read about it was for computer programmers who want to see code run.

Now today, new kids post hate about MS because they think it's what the are supposed to do to be "cool".

MS moved forward toward the real life day to day computer user. Linux chose to stay in the lab.

The man is correct, "Microsoft Hatred Is a Disease"

Not quite; close, but not quite. Microsoft went business, Apple went education. Each thought they had the market that would be the most prolific. Microsoft bet on the bread winner, Apple bet on the kids. The bread winner was obviously the better gamble; and, now with hindsight being 20/20 it is obvious that it would be; at the time however, it was a crap shoot.

[Grenage]

Mac have done a pretty great job at pulling back some market share over recent years. A lot of people here have started buying macbooks and/or mac desktops, I don't think I even need to mention the iphone.

I'm not a Mac fan, I think they are worse than MS in many ways, but at least it's pushing variety.

[Tclarkie]

Really funny (by the way, it is more or less true)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HmgUzfSmpN0/SOApVjxMJDI/AAAAAAAAM00/4miaVMyz5ZA/s400/tl-ultumix_linux_mouse_pad_tux_mousepad.jpg
:P

[MikeTheC]

Because killing people solves problems, right?

*looks back through history in which killing millions of people of one demographic ever solved anything*

Oh wait, nope.

While I could sit here and take issue with that worldview, in light of the "around the water cooler" and "nothing that causes drama" rules, I'll simply smile, be polite, and point out the fact that I actually was just trying to be a bit over-the-top in my comment.

[Giant Speck]

While I could sit here and take issue with that worldview, in light of the "around the water cooler" and "nothing that causes drama" rules, I'll simply smile, be polite, and point out the fact that I actually was just trying to be a bit over-the-top in my comment.

That's impossible. The Internet is serious business.

[raronson]

@Garrovick:

Have you ever read a For Dummies book and seen the triangle faced cartoon geek with with his finger raised up, as if to say, "Technically... ?" Well, I'm afraid I have to be that annoying geek for a minute:

You're equating DOS-with-UNIX-with an out-moded way of doing things. DOS and UNIX evolved along two totally separate lines. UNIX predates DOS by about a decade. Its purpose was to be a portable multiuser network system for workstations and servers. It was created to be an open system which could run on a variety of hardware, and thus solve vendor compatibility and lock-in problems. Its uses were/are primarily industrial, scientific, military, and academic.

DOS on the other hand, stems from Gary Kildall's CP/M operating system, and was used widely on primative personal computers like the Altair 8800 and its clones/work-a-likes built from hobby kits. When IBM started developing its first Personal Computer, Kildall was approached and offered a flat-fee for unlimited licenses of CP/M. He turned them away under the objection that he wanted royality rights per installation.

Meanwile, the Seatle Computer Products company was working on its own version of a disk operating system for these hobby machines (and particularly the one that it sold as a kit) to replace CP/M. The reasons were various, but mainly because CP/M wasn't keeping up with the demands of new hardware fast enough. So SCP set Tim Patterson down to create a home-grown replacement for CP/M, which he would come to call QDOS, or Quick and Dirty Operating System.

Now the nascent Microsoft had a relationship with SCP, in that it used some of their hardware to develop on, and SCP bundled some Microsoft software with their kits. They caught wind of SCP developing a replacement OS for CP/M and mentioned it to IBM--knowing that Kildall had refused their offer. Microsoft was urged to procure a license from SCP and implement this "DOS" on their new PC. They went to SCP and ended up buying QDOS for something like 50 grand. What they didn't tell them was that they were going to rebrand the OS, bundle their own software in, and license it first to IBM, then later to every other PC-clone maker, and become the richest company in history.

After the fact, SCP cried foul saying that they were swindled by Microsoft. They received a million bucks for compensation. Gary Kinldall cried foul, saying that DOS was essentially a theft of his intellectual property. At the time, there were no strong legal precedents for computer software. So IBM offered him a concession. They'd sell CP/M alongside their machine--but at that point he'd already lost, because Microsoft's DOS already came pre-installed by default. And the same became true of other vendors.

So you said that Microsoft started with DOS and then progressed to help out real people. Well the aforementioned story mentions two very real people: Gary Kildall and Tim Patterson. Either one of them could have been the richest man in the world on their own merits, and this brings me to my point: Microsoft has never been about people, from its very inception its been about dominance. And by the way, the other DOS front-end you mentioned is OS/2--but that's another story--one in which they screw IBM this time to supplant OS/2 with Windows using their cross-vendor install-base leverage.

Now onto the other point. GNU/Linux gets its inspiration from UNIX; it is a UNIX clone system. It's silly to compare UNIX to DOS, but if I had to, then DOS is like UNIX's nine year old nephew's pet turtle in terms of power and features. When you look at UNIX, it's changed very little really regarding how it works. It's spawned or inspired every major protocol that we see today, TCP/IP for example used for internet communication. The C Programming Language comes from it (and a host of others). And through UNIX-like systems, the BSD's and Linux, its put that industrial strength power and 40 year legacy into the hands of mere mortals.

Here's a test for you--and I just did this earlier today:

I had 15 gigabytes worth of music files that needed to be moved in some cases and renamed in others due to being mangled by iTunes. How would you do this in Vista? How would you do this in DOS (batch files can only do so much)? I wrote three simple scripts using bash and sed/awk. With these I knocked it out in about an hour (I ran into a few problems). Though consider the alternative in Windows: I'd have to manually rename and move all the files that were affected.

There's nothing outdated about the shell. It can do a million things that GUI's can't.

[Sublime Porte]

I started in computers using DOS. Both Windows and Linux are the new kids on the block.When did you start sing DOS? Linux has been around since 1991. Also Linux is just a clone of Unix anyway, and Unix has been around since about 1970, so not quite a new kid.... Perhaps you just didn't get out of your block enough?


Linux, when I first heard and read about it was for computer programmers who want to see code run.Linux started out to 'see code run'?? Interesting.... I began using Linux in the mid to late 90's and I don't remember ever doing it to 'see code run'... Still not sure what that means though. Do you mean it was good for programmers? I was not a programmer when I began using it. It does have a lot of development tools though.


Now today, new kids post hate about MS because they think it's what the are supposed to do to be "cool".How do you know who is and isn't a kid? I am certainly not a kid, but I hate Microsoft with a passion. Not because it's cool, but because I sincerely dislike their practises, their software and their business model.


MS moved forward toward the real life day to day computer user. Linux chose to stay in the lab.Microsoft are reporting huge losses, are losing market share and are generally going down the gurgler, albeit slowly... they are heading in that direction. Linux is gaining marketshare, and many companies who deal with open source software like Linux are reporting gains, even in the current financial climate. If you ask me, Linux is advancing in leaps and bounds, Microsoft is pretty stagnant, haven't done much new since XP really.

[ktechkio]

I agree...
but I doubt ms would say the same for linux

[aesis05401]

When did you start sing DOS? Linux has been around since 1991. Also Linux is just a clone of Unix anyway, and Unix has been around since about 1970, so not quite a new kid.... Perhaps you just didn't get out of your block enough?

I would just like to point out that 'DOS' just means disk operating system, and I have never seen an OS that was just named 'DOS.' (Though I just checked wikipedia and they say there was an IBM mainframe OS from the 1960s named just DOS.)

The first DOS I used was in 1983, and before I ever tried an MS DOS I had used minimum three different DOS systems extensively.

This conversation can only really stay relevant if we try to focus on the present and our thoughts for the future.

This thread feels a little thin at this point, anyhow.. I'm not sure how we would get back on topic at this point ;)

That means it is time for me to go do something productive. G'Day all.

P.S. kickstart FTW!!!eleven111one11!ty!!@

[MikeTheC]

that's impossible. The internet is serious business.

rofl!

[Sublime Porte]

I would just like to point out that 'DOS' just means disk operating system,

Actually it means Dirty Operating System, Microsoft got the rights to QDOS, which stood for Quick & Dirty Operating System.

Anyway I'm sure the person who mentioned "DOS" was referring to MS-DOS, which began life in 1980 (as QDOS, then 86-DOS, before being bought by Microsoft and renamed MS-DOS or PC-DOS when distributed by IBM).

The idea of DOS as a generic term isn't really relevant to this discussion, don't know why you brought it up. I doubt the 1960's "DOS" you were referring to has any relevance whatsoever to MS-DOS.

[Junkieman]

C:\>Dos
C:\>Dos\Run
Run DOS, RUN! Hahahaha! :D

Win vs Linux? They're two different species, with different beginnings, different ideals and different approaches. MS took a gap back when opportunity presented itself, good for them! Then they presented(read: spoon-fed) the public what they thought the standard in personal computing should be. If only the public wasn't so gullible :) But they took advantage, and their tactic worked!

I prefer Linux, from experiences and real problems I had to solve, getting to know the internals and how it works. Not because I like slagging around random wet trouts.

Working with Windows daily, hey it's a job, I use the tools needed to get the job done, even if it's frustrating sometimes!

I find many of the Linux system and application defaults are wonderfully tuned, while there are many badly written Windows apps, its just crazy! Hey I don't blame M$, but the developers that use bad practices... which they probably learned from an encouraging and overly-zealous M$ grabbing for any opportunity to own the PC world; And a API model that has more holes than Swiss cheese. Hmmmm Cheeeese.... :P

Linus likely knows why MS did what they did, which is why he likes making jokes of them. But he also knows better: "I don't want to be associated with the people for whom it's about exclusion and hatred." :D

[moster]

Junkieman, you nicely sum the whole thing :)

[Bachstelze]

Most of applications have GPL licence. That mean Gnu Public Licence. If you delete all of those and leave only one that have BSD licence there would not much left.

And if you delete everything that has a BSD-like license? No more X, no more SSH, no more sudo, no more Apache, no more PHP, etc.

Your nice and shiny GNU/Linux OS would be a tad less useful without all those parts. ;)

[alienclone]

This.

Would people buy a car from a known convicted (numerous times) criminal ?


If the convicted criminal had the legal right to sell me the car, and I wanted the car, then yes I would buy it.

[jonian_g]

And if you delete everything that has a BSD-like license? No more X, no more SSH, no more sudo, no more Apache, no more PHP, etc.

Your nice and shiny GNU/Linux OS would be a tad less useful without all those parts. ;)

What's the point on these arguments? :-k

[moster]

And if you delete everything that has a BSD-like license? No more X, no more SSH, no more sudo, no more Apache, no more PHP, etc.

Your nice and shiny GNU/Linux OS would be a tad less useful without all those parts. ;)

No, no, no.. question was other way around. If you delete ALL GNU apps :D
If GNU is Not that important why everybody talk about GNU/Linux, why not BSD/Linux?! :) I mean really..

[Icehuck]

No, no, no.. in question is other way around. If you delete ALL GNU apps :D
If it so, why it sis not called BSD/Linux?! Why GNU?

Because there is a person who became irrelevant and decided he wanted attention. It's ridiculous if you ask me, that if I make software and use GNU, that it has be named GNU/"My Software Name". That's exactly what is being done here.

If he didn't want attention, why would he be so adamant about not taking interviews if you didn't call it GNU/Linux?

[moster]

@Icehuck
They probably think they do not get enough attention they deserve. If you know how much % of GNU is in Ubuntu you should say it. If it is around 90%, then it should not be leaved out. Not agree?

[Icehuck]

@Icehuck
They probably think they do not get enough attention they deserve. If you know how much % of GNU is in Ubuntu you should say it. If it is around 90%, then it should not be leaved out. Not agree?

Last I checked the GPL only states that you give credit. It doesn't state you need to name your software GNU/"My Software".

GNU software is free to use however you want as long as you follow the GPL, but if it gets popular, you better name it GNU/"My Software"

[moster]

@Icehuck
No, I mean if it would be morally ok to call it GNU/Linux. I know on paper you do not have to.
So it is "Ubuntu Linux" or "Ubuntu GNU/Linux"?

My own opinion is that should call it GNU/Linux because linux is only kernel. You do not have to agree, it is ok really :) We are just discussing.

[Bachstelze]

If GNU is Not that important why everybody talk about GNU/Linux, why not BSD/Linux?! :) I mean really..

Because unlike the GNU people, the BSD people can make their own kernel and don't need Linux? ;)

Okay, I'll stop now. :p

[aesis05401]

*snip* n/m.

[moster]

Because unlike the GNU people, the BSD people can make their own kernel and don't need Linux? ;)

Okay, I'll stop now. :p
You just KILL my faith in GNU :D

Ok, seriously, let just discuss little more on this.
I do not get it. How it is possible that one big community, thousands developers contribute to linux kernel, so much is going on and we just barely manage to fight off microsoft, to get fair share of market.

And.. there goes this BSD guys. They have its own kernel, they are not bothered too much with anything I see... :) How is this possible that BSD just not vanish and became totally irrelevant in whole picture. I mean, how time just not run over them?

I mean no harm with this post. I am not against BSD, just wonder who are these guys?!

[DeadSuperHero]

Wow, is this thread still going on? I stopped caring when I went job hunting yesterday.


And.. there goes this BSD guys. They have its own kernel, they are not bothered too much with anything I see... :smile: How is this possible that BSD just not vanish and became totally irrelevant in whole picture. I mean, how time just not run over them?BSD is about just as old as the GNU project. Like GNU, the BSD project has a fairly complete operating system, unlike GNU they also have their own project kernel.

The reason BSD does not simply "vanish" is because it's a great product. BSD license is more permissive than the GPL for some developers, as it allows companies to close the source code.

But! One thing most GNU followers overlook is the fact that, four or five releases into a proprietary BSD-based product, a company is more than willing to turn around and contribute code back to maintain compatibility.

BSD is just really a different way of doing things, but I've really come to like it. FreeBSD's main package manager (the Ports Collection) is, in my mind, far superior to any Linux package manager. It takes some getting used to, and a lot of patience (Ports basically downloads the source code and dependencies, and compiles the code with a series of config questions)

It's got a very dedicated community.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD

PC-BSD is the one I'm currently using, it's based on FreeBSD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC-BSD

[aesis05401]

That's great, Mr. Psychopath. The things you say about BSD are true as far as I know, but aren't you leaving out some important details?

Maybe it will be enough just to mention that numerous BSD developers seem to radiate an ant-n00b force-field. We are posting on UbuntuForums. This is pretty far from a winning formula.

@moster: The BSD devs really are l33t and they adhere to a hardcore standard of 'code correctness.' Beyond that, the only part that matters when it comes to BSD survival, is the license. Because of the license, BSD finds its way into all sorts of corporate environments for all sorts of purposes.

back @ Mr. Psychopath: Good luck with the job search.

@ anyone still reading this thread: can you see the original topic from where you are? Hello?

[moster]

Thanks for info guys. :)

I think I once even try PC-BSD but it look like some distro from former century. I did not like it.

I think after all, it is really shame that Apple just copy-paste and make MACOS-X. Hard work should be rewarded somehow or contribute back in some way. Their licence are not help.

[aesis05401]

Maybe it will be enough just to mention that numerous BSD developers seem to radiate an ant-n00b force-field. We are posting on UbuntuForums. This is pretty far from a winning formula.


Yes, I really did just accuse BSD developers of radiating an 'ant-n00b force-field' on an international forum...

Amazing what one misplaced symbol can do to a man's argument.

*sigh*

[moster]

I think we all know what you mean :)

In real world, out there... people still think of whole linux as anti-normal-human. I think Ubuntu change that in some way. But still not nearly enough. This forum is micro society. 2010 is knocking on the door... robots should think for themselves, cars should flying around... nothing from all that... After all this years I would still be looking at that same "My Computer" icon if I am not now among 1-4% of population who dare to install linux. Somehow sad.

[DeadSuperHero]

Yes, I really did just accuse BSD developers of radiating an 'ant-n00b force-field' on an international forum...

Amazing what one misplaced symbol can do to a man's argument.

*sigh*

I think you'd be surprised, they're a far quieter bunch than, say, the Debian developers. I'd have to say that there's elitism on just about any platform, although I shudder to think of what Windows elitism must look like.

PC-BSD's developers are pretty noob-friendly, although their forums don't get updated very much. Their mailing list is really active, though, and their OS itself supports an easy-installation system similar to those found in Mac OS or Windows, as well as also supporting the Ports collection.


I think after all, it is really shame that Apple just copy-paste and make MACOS-X. Hard work should be rewarded somehow or contribute back in some way. Their licence are not help.

As much as I dislike Apple, I will admit that they do tend to contribute back, it's just that the way they've done things with the BSD code base is a bit messy (after all, their kernel is based on the BSD kernel + Mach semi-microkernel + modifications), and a lot of BSD developers will admit sometimes that the modifications are useless because they don't want to adopt the different kernel setup.


I think I once even try PC-BSD but it look like some distro from former century. I did not like it.

Have you tried their latest release, 7.1.1 Galileo Edition? It's much more modern than it used to be.

[schauerlich]

I think after all, it is really shame that Apple just copy-paste and make MACOS-X. Hard work should be rewarded somehow or contribute back in some way. Their licence are not help.

See the "misconceptions" link in my sig.

[aesis05401]

*snip* ... In real world, out there... people still think of whole linux as anti-normal-human. I think Ubuntu change that in some way. But still not nearly enough. ... *snip*

This statement is hitting the nail on the head.

Ubuntu fills a core need for people who are dealing with MS hate by making this distro a reasonable first step in the right direction. This on its own is not enough. But here is what I find insightful about the way this distro is positioned.

It is becoming two separate things simultaneously:

1: Ubuntu is gaining enough profile to operate as a feeder distro for technically inclined people who realize they don't like the MS kool-aid, but don't have faith *yet* in the alternatives.

These people usually move on to other distros as learning experiences, but Ubuntu becomes their recommendation when others ask about where to begin.

2: Ubuntu is also becoming the alternative destination distro for people who want something a little more free than Apple ecosystem. There is much room for improvement here, but it is worth pointing out that this demographic is known for being a bit more style conscious than regular power users/devs..

Having these people land at Ubuntu and sticking with this community means a reliably broad source of end-user feedback for usability enhancements. Hardcore Linux distros have very little interest in this topic, so again, Ubuntu gains users and is relevant to the rest of the Linux world by providing a user base that is focused a little more on the sparkly stuff.

So now, we can have a common ground between ideological FOSS people and productivity oriented FOSS people. All we need to do is have the conversation with people feeling the MS hate:

Is Ubuntu a decent first step?

Any radical MS ranting that results can be dealt with easily. How is anyone supposed to change without taking a first step? I think we will end up with some softer feelings towards this distro from all but the most jaded trolls who equate Ubuntu with some sort of MS trap.

One thing we learned from the AOL r0d3nt invasion of the '90s - someone needs to take the time to support new users. Otherwise we all get overrun by change.

[MikeTheC]

Ubuntu fills a core need for people who are dealing with MS hate by making this distro a reasonable first step in the right direction. This on its own is not enough. But here is what I find insightful about the way this distro is positioned.

It is becoming two separate things simultaneously:

1: Ubuntu is gaining enough profile to operate as a feeder distro for technically inclined people who realize they don't like the MS kool-aid, but don't have faith *yet* in the alternatives.

These people usually move on to other distros as learning experiences, but Ubuntu becomes their recommendation when others ask about where to begin.

2: Ubuntu is also becoming the alternative destination distro for people who want something a little more free than Apple ecosystem. There is much room for improvement here, but it is worth pointing out that this demographic is known for being a bit more style conscious than regular power users/devs..
Absolutely I agree with your points here, aesis. Linux needs to have a public face that potential first-timers can look to with some degree of reassurance and confidence.


Having these people land at Ubuntu and sticking with this community means a reliably broad source of end-user feedback for usability enhancements. Hardcore Linux distros have very little interest in this topic, so again, Ubuntu gains users and is relevant to the rest of the Linux world by providing a user base that is focused a little more on the sparkly stuff.
I think one of the greatest weaknesses of Linux isn't the OS itself, but the aspect of the community which is so self-absorbed that they really don't care about anyone else. I'm not interested in running an OS that has no relevancy out there, and while Linux is lightyears away from that kind of fate, the point is there isn't the solidarity amongst the community that there probably should be. Again, the point goes to Canonical for taking a leadership role in trying to convert users of other platforms -- chiefly Windows -- by giving them a usage experience which makes Linux feel accessible to them.


So now, we can have a common ground between ideological FOSS people and productivity oriented FOSS people. All we need to do is have the conversation with people feeling the MS hate:

Is Ubuntu a decent first step?

Any radical MS ranting that results can be dealt with easily. How is anyone supposed to change without taking a first step? I think we will end up with some softer feelings towards this distro from all but the most jaded trolls who equate Ubuntu with some sort of MS trap.

One thing we learned from the AOL r0d3nt invasion of the '90s - someone needs to take the time to support new users. Otherwise we all get overrun by change.
I think that is still a rather sore subject for many of us. AOL kind of opened a Pandora's Box of sorts by the way they tried to package the Internet, and frankly sugar-coating things to cater to the lowest-common denominator. You're right that the community at large needs to roll up its sleeves with respect to helping make people more savvy. However, all the savvyness in the world will not replace self-responsibility, and there's still a considerable absence of that out in the wild.

[moster]

@aesis05401
You sum it all just fine, but there is one mayor flaw in that. That is statistic. You are not realistic(objectiv) about this. (I mean no harm by saying that)

Statistic say that linux users are 1-4%. And no, it is not all because they did not heard about linux. More then half of those use dual-boot. Most of those who left Use Ubuntu and no other distro. And finally who is left, are true linux users who tried few distros, scratched more then just surfice.

That is like 0,5% of users. First number of that percentage is zero. Mathematically it is statistical error, if you want that way :)

Everybody who do not believe in those numbers are just fooling themselves. This whole forum is virtual linux reality. Outside of this forum, people who use terminal are "programmers" or even better, "hackers". Sad, but true.

Look further of yourself, your family where you installed your granny linux. Further of your friends, becuase they are actually your friends because you have same interest and that is linux.

When you say Ubuntu is gaining... ubuntu is becoming... It is all true. But it is also only begining.

edit:
This is one question that you have to ask yourself. If Linux have 100% hardware compatibility, would it have significantly more % users? I believe most of people here would say, YES. But answer is no :(

[jonian_g]

Because unlike the GNU people, the BSD people can make their own kernel and don't need Linux? ;)

Okay, I'll stop now. :p

The kernel was given to them by AT&T and they modified it. So, if they are so awesome why they use gcc and not their own compiler.

I keep thinking. What's the point on these posts? You want to say that BSD developers and people that make BSD licensed software are superior?

And by the way, GNU project is more important to Linux. GNU doesn't have a kernel and Linux doesn't have anything more than a kernel.

[aesis05401]

@MikeTheC: The last point you make is always a good thing to be reminded of.

@moster: Your post reminds me that it is not only wise for Desktop Linux adopters to remain humble... it is necessary for us to remain humble if we want to be taken seriously in the world at large.

That being said, the most important facet of our community may end up being the philosophical foothold that is being made for us by other communities. The intelligence community, for instance, is beginning to get up to speed on the dangers of monoculture in the electronic world. I tend to think we should view individuals like Jeff Moss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Moss_(hacker)) as benefactors of our community, even though we are from separate branches of the same family tree.

The perspective he is bringing to national security discussions will benefit us all.

That being said, yes - it is only a beginning :)

[moster]

See the "misconceptions" link in my sig.
I turned off sigs because people tend to put nonsense in there. Sorry, If you have something actually useful.

The kernel was given to them by AT&T and they modified it. So, if they are so awesome why they use gcc and not their own compiler.

I keep thinking. What's the point on these posts? You want to say that BSD developers and people that make BSD licensed software are superior?

And by the way, GNU project is more important to Linux. GNU doesn't have a kernel and Linux doesn't have anything more than a kernel.

You said much more better then I did. I think too that GNU deserve proper respect!

[schauerlich]

I turned off sigs because people tend to put nonsense in there. Sorry, If you have something actually useful.

If you're interested, here's the link I was referring to.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7347446&postcount=1

[MikeTheC]

If you're interested, here's the link I was referring to.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7347446&postcount=1

Dave:

Excellent job with that. Two thumbs up and many props to you.

[moster]

If you're interested, here's the link I was referring to.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7347446&postcount=1

I read it. I still did not change my mind. I still think that Apple took something free, add on top his proprietary stuff and start selling it at high cost.

To wash their hands they maintain that Darwin but that is so miserable that no any kind of Darwin is on Distrowatch. It remind me of that microsoft linux distro that was so awful that its purpuse it was only to ruin general linux reputation.

Sorry if you are Mac lover. I know it is easy to fall in love. It is like beautiful woman with blue eyes and seductive body tell you "I know they are talking bad about me, but believe me, I am nothing like that. You will see when you PAY me."

[Junkieman]

Wow this thread is really OT, but interesting!

@moster you're right about the hardware support. You can get most hardware working on Linux, with enough time + tinkering. The problem is that many manufacturers don't use open standards, you can't get the specs publicly, and they develop their own drivers in-house, for Windows only.

As you said it's just the beginning, and it's starting to change. We're lucky to have companies like Intel, who made their specs open and are involved in Linux driver (http://intellinuxgraphics.org/) dev :) Go Intel!

[Junkieman]

It is like beautiful woman with blue eyes and seductive body tell you "I know they are talking bad about me, but believe me, I am nothing like that. You will see when you PAY me."

LOL!! :lolflag:

[raronson]

I really hate to invoke a Matrix reference, but in one of the films, Morpheus says something to the effect of, "We're all here because it's in our nature to disobey authority." Even better is the evolutionary biologist and author, Richard Dawkins, who says that getting Atheists to form a lobby is a bit like herding cats; they don't lend themselves to herding because they're much too independent for that sort of activity.

I'm replying in general to the statements about Linux's marketshare/mindshare. It was said in a round about way that Ubuntu is a gateway distribution which aims to accommodate a frustrated public searching for alternatives by being user-friendly, shiny, and having a newbie-friendly online community. Some shots were taken at FreeBSD, and some claims were made about "hardcore" versions of Linux like Debian that had different goals in mind.

My experience has been that elitism is usually attributed wrongfully.

Let's take the example of FreeBSD. FreeBSD has a great community whose helpfullness and technical knowledge is unmatched by any other operating system in the world. There's a drawback though: you actually have to do your own reading, your own thinking, your own expirimentation. Then you actually have to read their Handbook and FAQ. Then you actually have to be able to post meaningful messages in their forums to recieve help--because take this to the bank--if you post for help, you will most assuredly be asked if you have done all of the aforementioned; i.e., "did you read <this>?", "what result did you get with <this> command?"

I've seen a lot of posts on the forums here with subjects like, "HEEEEEELLPPPPP 1111!!!!!!!1!!!! NO SOUND!!11! The FreeBSD community would ignore such a post and essentially say, "Oh no you dit-int!" Is that elitism? Or, is user-friendliness found in catering to a post like that? Same goes for Debian. I used both OS's together for about 3 out of my 12 years playing with FOSS (Deb on the desk, FreeBSD on servers), and I maintain that they have very helpful and knowledgable communities. There's a funny old saying that I like: UNIX is user-friendly, it's just picky about its friends.

That being said, Ubuntu isn't necessarily an entry-level system aimed at my fictional(?) poster. And I wouldn't necessarily say that orange & brown with default icons makes for a shiny package meant to whoo the hapless Windows user. Ubuntu (with some serious backing) has simply upped the stakes for usuability and end-user experience. In doing so, it's quickly become "Linux" in the public perception. While it's true that many new Linux users are introducted via Ubuntu, it doesn't mean that we're all in this category. When it comes to our experience--or opinions. In fact I'd say that we're a lot like... a herd of cats.

[MikeTheC]

raronson, I understand what you're getting at.

------

I have a few things I'd like to say about all this.

First off, I can't help that Linus either isn't able to -- or simply doesn't want to -- put all the pieces together here and see the larger picture of why we hate Microsoft. I have all the respect in the world for the man, but frankly I think he sometimes needs to just shut his mouth, because in situations like these he just makes himself look like an idiot. Microsoft has brought negative sentiment on itself through its past bad acts and current strangle-hold hegemony on the computer world. It's not like everyone uses Windows "because it's the best thing ever" but simply because it's a matter of social inertia which Microsoft to this day does everything it can to help maintain.

Moreover, I don't think everyone out there who has a computer actually *should* have a computer. One of the unfortunate effects of Microsoft's (or even AOL's) marketing and product positioning efforts is that they've sucked up the scum and garbage of humanity along with decent, intelligent and self-sufficient folk, and it has simply co-opted and corrupted the technology world. It has also had the effect of tying a millstone around the collective necks of the rest of us, and it's done it in a very socially pernicious way.

I don't think we need to be arrogant or rude as a technological society, but I also don't think we should act like we need to wear kid gloves and treat every user or potential user out there like some fragile and delicate thing. As I said, some people were never meant to -- and simply shouldn't -- own or use a computer. We need to be nice, professional and polite, but sooner or later we need to draw the line.

What this has to do with the point of this thread is simply that there's an awful lot of people out there living a dumbed down technological experience, and without regard to what we do with those people in the Linux world, this is basically a "social welfare" product of Microsoft's actions, and is yet another reason to take great umbrage at their continued existence.

[raronson]

I always enjoy your comments, Mike :)

[moster]

@rorason haha, you really like to elaborate. I always read your posts because I really like extensive open minded opinions on some things. This is large forum and you will probably encounter like minded, but people tend to skip large posts or at best read them shallow. Hope you are aware of this.

on the forums here with subjects like, "HEEEEEELLPPPPP 1111!!!!!!!1!!!! NO SOUND!!11! The FreeBSD community would ignore such a post and essentially say, "Oh no you dit-int!" Is that elitism? Or, is user-friendliness found in catering to a post like that? Same goes for Debian.

I will just say what I think of this few sentences I quoted. I consider that behaviour what you said about BSD and Debian poeple true elitistic. I do not have problem with them. It is like grown men do not take children seriously. Hey, its their world... Problem is another kind of people. That is those who attack on very mention of windows in good way or linux in bad way. But even with them, I can get along. They are at least passionate. And there is third kind. Sleazy, slimey, spineless "people" who on first sight you do not recognize as that. I am talking about people who from windows 7 beta preaching on this forum indirectly recommending windows. I really hate only those kind of people.

So for elitist roundup...

[Maheriano]

I believe others should be allowed to use Microsoft if they want.
I don't believe I should use Microsoft. I can't stand that frustrating crap.

[aesis05401]

@raronson:
On the issue of the n00b posts that appear in UF, there is something I don't understand. How can people claim both of these things simultaneously:

1. MS has used demonstrably illegal tactics to monopolize entire markets.
2. Users emerging from those markets should be expected to have critical tech thinking skills like the rest of us.

(It looks like MikeTheC is making a similar point, but I have already typed this in ;) )

@MikeTheC: This statement by Linus sounds like complete common sense to me. In fact, I can boil down my translation of his comment to two words: 'expect company.'

There is a saying with the martial arts - one minute in the morning is worth five at night. Any distribution or forum community that hopes to remain relevant through the turbulence of the imminent MS contraction should take a minute now to address the in house issues.

[raronson]

Your question brilliantly puts everything into perspective with few words. Couple that with what Mike was saying about Linux communities being a social reaction which catches these folks, and we have grounds for a productive thread.

Regarding the in-house issues, I think everyone agrees with that, but the 'herding cats' analogy applies. Maybe you can come up with two more opposing statements to address that.

[raronson]

This is large forum and you will probably encounter like minded, but people tend to skip large posts or at best read them shallow. Hope you are aware of this.


Oh yeah, we're all guilty of that. I tend to ramble. Sometimes I think that when nature encoded me the --very-verbose argument was used.

[moster]

Ok, I will just shoot :D

There are two kind of problems ubuntu have to deal with. Ubuntu cannot became "lindows" because then it will loose current followers, but it also cannot stay like this because it is still too complicated for average windows user.

Shuttleworth have very open mind for computer geek. And he knows this but he do not have power to change some of general linux problems. That is why he insist in collaboration with whole linux community, not just Ubuntu.

edit:
Elitist do not see real power. Real power is in numbers, even if those numbers are totally computer illiterate users. Those users are important to everybody but them. I think critical mass will be when European Union government switch to linux. That will be that "detonator". lucky, I am still relative young and can wait :)

[bodhi.zazen]

There are two kind of problems ubuntu have to deal with. Ubuntu cannot became "lindows" because then it will loose current followers, but it also cannot stay like this because it is still too complicated for average windows user.

I disagree with that last statement. If you pre-install Ubuntu and end users simply use the system, the way they use pre-installed windows, most of them say it is not any more difficult to use Ubuntu.

Most windows users do not sys admin windows. Since sys admin on Windows is obfuscated (ie registry) IMO window is harder.

[raronson]

@moster:

Yeah, that's absolutely right. A lot of "harcore" users are turned off by Ubuntu because they think it's edging too close to Windows, or because they take pride in manually configuring their system.

Though I suspect a lot of us have built Linux From Scratch, installed Gentoo, used Debian, Arch, FreeBSD, etc., many times over years. I know the system well enough to let a distribution make sensible choices for me at this point (and I can always follow up post-install). I don't need to manually edit every config on the drive, or compile every package from source using the most optimal flags. For what? Control? Knowledge? Braggin' rights? The people in that camp are just immature (though I wouldn't call them elitist, since their opinion comes from a petty place). I like what Paul says in Corinthians 13:

(11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

But obviously, Ubuntu aims at the Windows user without making a Windows clone. You said it well at the beginning of your post. How does the user interface bend without breaking--or even, how does it flex without bending? No one's settled that argument, but I foresee a day where we'll no longer even have that discussion. When people talk about Windows in the future, hopefully they'll be talking a software company, instead of an OS vendor.

Marty McFly (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000150/): Doc, we better back up. We don't have enough road to get up to 88.
Dr. Emmett Brown (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000502/): Roads? Where we're going we don't need roads.

[raronson]

I disagree with that last statement. If you pre-install Ubuntu and end users simply use the system, the way they use pre-installed windows, most of them say it is not any more difficult to use Ubuntu.

Most windows users do not sys admin windows. Since sys admin on Windows is obfuscated (ie registry) IMO window is harder.

I hate to keep posting to this thread :)

But Bodhi makes a good point. Most people using Windows find it complicated. Have you ever said, "Okay, now open the Start Menu and go to", only to be cut off by someone saying, "Wait... the what? Where!?"

[MikeTheC]

With respect, I would suggest that anyone who finds Ubuntu (not including using the terminal here) too complicated is, at best, someone we don't need in the Linux community; and, at worst, someone who shouldn't have a computer in the first place.

[moster]

@bodhi.zazen
Under your nick it is written "Ubuntu guru". You must get down several levels to experience confusion.

You must try to understand people to who internet explorer or firefox is "The Internet". I was working in support, you have really no idea how hard can it be. Sometimes you must actually ask what colour is icon you just clicked. I just wanted to cry.

Imagine yourself as kernel hacker who thinks like this "If I can code kernel, it should not be to hard for them to code little calculator" Yea, but problem is, people do not know how to code. They not even understand concept of "code". And great majority will even pay to not must know that.

[Icehuck]

@bodhi.zazen
Under your nick it is written "Ubuntu guru". You must get down several levels to experience confusion.

You must try to understand people to who internet explorer or firefox is "The Internet". I was working in support, you have really no idea how hard can it be. Sometimes you must actually ask what colour is icon you just clicked. I just wanted to cry.

Imagine yourself as kernel hacker who thinks like this "If I can code kernel, it should not be to hard for them to code little calculator" Yea, but problem is, people do not know how to code. They not even understand concept of "code". And great majority will even pay to not must know that.

I've done support, I know exactly what you are talking about. People don't understand what the Start button is and you can't expect these people to want to know. These people are so afraid and so disinterested in the computer in general, you sometimes have to actually describe the window they are looking at.

I had one user who could use the computer like a "power" user when I was looking over his shoulder. If I wasn't there he couldn't even figure out how to turn his machine on.



With respect, I would suggest that anyone who finds Ubuntu (not including using the terminal here) too complicated is, at best, someone we don't need in the Linux community; and, at worst, someone who shouldn't have a computer in the first place.

Everyone has the right to own and use a computer. Don't be elitist.

[moster]

I've done support, I know exactly what you are talking about. People don't understand what the Start button is and you can't expect these people to want to know. These people are so afraid and so disinterested in the computer in general, you sometimes have to actually describe the window they are looking at.

I had one user who could use the computer like a "power" user when I was looking over his shoulder. If I wasn't there he couldn't even figure out how to turn his machine on.

Everyone has the right to own and use a computer. Don't be elitist.

Haha, yes... I was only few month on support but I have interesting stories for two pages.
They must think of something to get more people. Problem is that young people who have fresh brain :) are going for games.. and games are in windows. I really do not know how will they deal with this, but we are getting nowhere if everything stay "as is" I do not want to look at linux at 1% for another 10 years.

[raronson]

@moster:

It's been said that the last frontier for Linux is games. Though think about this...

The cost of a Windows gaming PC is easily tripple that of any modern gaming console. Then figure in a for a new video card every six months, and new ram/cpu/motherboard every year. It's an economic disaster for anyone who puts themselves in this bind.

Compare to the PS3 that I bought a year ago for $600. It plays games, It runs Xubuntu, and it plays Blu-Ray movies...

I know that people have choices and should be free to make them, but man, it sure is dumb to be a PC gamer.

[DeadSuperHero]

@moster:


I know that people have choices and should be free to make them, but man, it sure is dumb to be a PC gamer.

I disagree with this statement, I've played PC games since the early 90's. Do I purchase a lot of games that come out now? Not really, because most of the games I come across are either:

1.) Crap
2.) Expensive

That said, I still enjoy an occasional game of Fallout 3, which was 60 bucks at the time I got it. Overpriced, yes, but I feel it was definitely worth the price.

[raronson]

I forgot to add the disclaimer that indemnifies me against flames:

I played (past tense) Counter-Strike for about 5 years and World of Warcraft for a little over 2 years. Toward the end I used Cedega to play both titles on Linux so that I could finally ditch my aging Window 2000 Professional parition. Fallout 3 is available for the PS3 for about $60, and thanks for the reminder (now if only I could find the time).

Currently, I'm playing all of the Final Fantasy series in anticipation for Final Fantasy XIII. I've always loved games. It's just that for me, they haven't belonged on my computer for a long time; and for that matter, I haven't even used a desktop for years now. Forking out money for upgrades on a predictable schedule for a couple of good games every few years is hardly worth it to me. And if I get the nostalgic urge to have a desktop experience, I just close the lid to my laptop and hook up an HDTV and a wireless keyboard/mouse combo.

[raronson]

.

[moster]

I see more posts to OT so I will just add my rant without "excuse me" ;)

I should not even mention games because they are not so much problem in my opinion. European Union goverment and other Big Guys do not play games. (maybe cards) :)

Maybe... Ubuntu does not have to become more "like windows". I mean in general level. But they must somehow get to the 10-15%. That is safe numbers when hardware and software companies cannot ignore you.

There must be standard some things if linux is aim to get serious in desktop. Next, things like editing fstab manually should not be part of "linux for human beings". Get rid of stuff like that and Ubuntu will get real close to that 10%.

100 papercuts is definite step in right direction. More then most of people think.

For the ultimate off topic, quote from Bible :)
Help yourself, and God will help you too.

[kk0sse54]

The kernel was given to them by AT&T and they modified it. So, if they are so awesome why they use gcc and not their own compiler.

I keep thinking. What's the point on these posts? You want to say that BSD developers and people that make BSD licensed software are superior?

And by the way, GNU project is more important to Linux. GNU doesn't have a kernel and Linux doesn't have anything more than a kernel.

The kernel from AT&T formed part of the basis for the original BSD Unix however pretty much all of it had been rewritten by the early nineties and I think you'd have a hard time trying to find any AT&T code in a modern day *BSD. And the FreeBSD devs are actually planning to replace gcc with llvm/clang, nevertheless gcc is pretty much the standard C compiler for all unix like OSs so I don't know what that had to do with anything...



I will just say what I think of this few sentences I quoted. I consider that behaviour what you said about BSD and Debian poeple true elitistic. I do not have problem with them. It is like grown men do not take children seriously. Hey, its their world... Problem is another kind of people. That is those who attack on very mention of windows in good way or linux in bad way. But even with them, I can get along. They are at least passionate. And there is third kind. Sleazy, slimey, spineless "people" who on first sight you do not recognize as that. I am talking about people who from windows 7 beta preaching on this forum indirectly recommending windows. I really hate only those kind of people.

So for elitist roundup...

How is this elitist? FreeBSD has a different model for support than Ubuntu, they focus on well written documentation as the first point of reference just like Arch. Thus you need a half ounce of common sense to be able to read something which a lot of people lack on the UF when they ask things like "how do I install software?." Is it really that hard to turn that question into a two second google search? But that's okay because Ubuntu and FreeBSD are aimed at two different audiences. FreeBSD goal is not to produce a user friendly desktop, you're mixing that up with ubuntu.



?[/I] The people in that camp are just immature (though I wouldn't call them elitist, since their opinion comes from a petty place). I like what Paul says in Corinthians 13:

(11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

News to me, I didn't know people who used source based distros were immature. Please could you post that at the gentoo forums we would get a kick out of that.

[MikeTheC]

Everyone has the right to own and use a computer.
Oh really? Citation, please. And, BTW, along with your "right" there is also an obligation to be self-sufficient and responsible.

[starcannon]

Everyone has the right to own and use a computer. Don't be elitist.

Not sure human beings have come to rely on computers to the degree of it being a right yet or not; though I will admit were getting there. That said, I agree with your sentiment on that issue.

In todays World, I mean that geographically, if one wants to make something of ones self, a computer is a requisite; sure, I suppose you can still get to the top without a computer, but that would be a bit like summiting Mount Everest in the buff, possible in the grand random chance of things, but not plausible. So if computer access is not yet a right, it is certainly a very needed privilege.

GL and HF

[moster]

How is this elitist? FreeBSD has a different model for support than Ubuntu, they focus on well written documentation as the first point of reference just like Arch. Thus you need a half ounce of common sense to be able to read something which a lot of people lack on the UF when they ask things like "how do I install software?." Is it really that hard to turn that question into a two second google search? But that's okay because Ubuntu and FreeBSD are aimed at two different audiences. FreeBSD goal is not to p

Do not be mad. :) Nobody from us have really anything against BSD. I was call BSD guys elitist because is some granny come to their forum asking for help they would probably polite ask her out, because she really has nothing to do there.
I think I am not mixing up anything because word "elite" mean exactly that what I describe.

[moster]

Oh really? Citation, please. And, BTW, along with your "right" there is also an obligation to be self-sufficient and responsible.

Why I always must make example of granny?! But here it goes.. Granny would like to see pictures of her grandchildren, read a mail from son, whatever..

And you will take all that from her because she is not "self-sufficient" and "responsible"? She donate money for your first computer, doesnt she? Come on... :)

[DeadSuperHero]

Oh really? Citation, please.


Well, considering for the moment that anyone is free to purchase something, in this case a computer, doesn't that in itself constitute a right to ownership? After all, you worked for it, paid for it, and now can use it however you want.


And, BTW, along with your "right" there is also an obligation to be self-sufficient and responsible.

I don't have to be self-sufficent or responsible. Heck, I could get very drunk and try installing FreeBSD. It doesn't constitute self-sufficiency very well, or responsibility. Yet, I am free to do it.

I find that in the structure of human culture, you're just about free to do anything, provided you're willing to face a consequence. For example, I could spam the boards with activist tripe (no faction in particular, just an example), but the admins/mods would retain the right to ban me, even though I have a right to Free Speech.

There was a point in all of this, but I've gotten a little off-track...ah yes. I don't believe that there can be any prerequisites as to whether a person should have the "right" to own their own computer or not.

[kk0sse54]

Do not be mad. :) Nobody from us have really anything against BSD. I was call BSD guys elitist because is some granny come to their forum asking for help they would probably polite ask her out, because she really has nothing to do there.
I think I am not mixing up anything because word "elite" mean exactly that what I describe.

Really? I find the freebsd community to be way more knowledgeable and helpful than the linux community and would be more than happy to point your "granny" towards the freebsd handbook if all her questions can be answered there, not that she should really be using freebsd in the first place. The documentation exists for a reason so why repeat yourself? Besides the definition for elitism is "the superior attitude or behaviour associated with an elite." Still don't know how that applies here.

[moster]

Really? I find the freebsd community to be way more knowledgeable and helpful than the linux community and would be more than happy to point your "granny" towards the freebsd handbook if all her questions can be answered there, not that she should really be using freebsd in the first place. The documentation exists for a reason so why repeat yourself? Besides the definition for elitism is "the superior attitude or behaviour associated with an elite." Still don't know how that applies here.

Uff, if there is so great why are you here? You drop something maybe?

[DeadSuperHero]

Uff, if there is so great why are you here? You drop something maybe?

You'd be surprised, there are many people who use alternative OS'es to Linux who still like being part of the forum community. I'm mainly a PC-BSD person now, but I've been part of this community since I tried Edgy Eft.

[kk0sse54]

Uff, if there is so great why are you here? You drop something maybe?

I didn't know the UF was a closed forum.

[moster]

I didn't know the UF was a closed forum.

It is open for everybody. That is the point. Even granny can come and ask for help, and she will get it! :)

[starcannon]

It is open for everybody. That is the point. Even granny can come and ask for help, and she will get it! :)
+1
I love this community; there isn't a friendlier one on the interwebs.

[DeadSuperHero]

+1
I love this community; there isn't a friendlier one on the interwebs.

You mean it surpasses Hello Kitty Online?

NOOOOOOOO!

[starcannon]

You mean it surpasses Hello Kitty Online?

NOOOOOOOO!

Never checked that one out; perhaps you can give us a synopsis?

[DeadSuperHero]

Never checked that one out; perhaps you can give us a synopsis?

It's a Hello Kitty MMORPG...
http://www.hellokittyonline.com/

[CharmyBee]

It's a Hello Kitty MMORPG...
http://www.hellokittyonline.com/

I love the copyright footer :D!

[Chronon]

How is this elitist? FreeBSD has a different model for support than Ubuntu, they focus on well written documentation as the first point of reference just like Arch. Thus you need a half ounce of common sense to be able to read something which a lot of people lack on the UF when they ask things like "how do I install software?." Is it really that hard to turn that question into a two second google search? But that's okay because Ubuntu and FreeBSD are aimed at two different audiences. FreeBSD goal is not to produce a user friendly desktop, you're mixing that up with ubuntu.


Good point. Two OSes need not cater to the same demographic. I can appreciate the perspective that you ascribe to FreeBSD.

[Arup]

Arup to Linus............it maybe a disease but its not an endemic like M$ fanboyz coming down here from time to time and hurtling nonsense at Ubuntu and Linux in general, same goes for retarded sites like linuxsuxs.

[DeadSuperHero]

Arup to Linus............it maybe a disease but its not an endemic like M$ fanboyz coming down here from time to time and hurtling nonsense at Ubuntu and Linux in general, same goes for retarded sites like linuxsuxs.


Oh, not this again...

1. Please refrain from using words like "retard", my cousins were born with Ausberger's Syndrome, and they are bullied in school for it.

2. Linsux went over a bunch of reforming. (See front-ish end of this thread)

3. I'm part of Linsux.org, and although many of my ideologies clash with the members here, this is one of the few online communities that are truly friendly all-around. I don't want this dissolving into *YET ANOTHER* flamewar about how "bad" some website that you don't agree with is. Everybody's different, Linsux.org operates largely under satire anymore, etc, etc.

4. One of the worst things about the internet is that two people from different ideologies will bash and hate upon each other, without ever getting to know what kinds of people they're really dealing with. For all I know, you could be the nicest guy in real life, but calling a forum full of people "retards" is not very nice, online OR offline.

5. Linsux.org actually does not advocate for trolling. We tried migrating over to UF briefly to introduce ourselves and interact, and it was taken badly. These other people that do this are not part of our community.

[aesis05401]

Arup -

Have you ever met a real FOSS troll? Someone feeling the hate Linus is talking about combined with their own sense of self-righteousness?

There are many of these people around, but you don't see them as much on these forums as elsewhere because UF is kinda a fieldtrip for a lot of those guys... They drop in here, get a few threads locked, maybe stop when they get IP banned... Then they go home.

The worst ones are usually recognizable within a few posts because they have been going around in circles for so long inside their heads that they can't obsfucate their style without reverting to highly distinct language and sentence patterns.

Get a proxy server and a throwaway OS install and go looking for these people. Not only will you find them, you will find some of the most disturbing websites on the nets.

[Arup]

Sorry if the word retard offends you, its meant in general, not for those who are unfortunately born with the condition. I continue using the word for those who attack a free alternate OS, there is no forcing one to use it or any advertising. Its about choice.

If you are a part of linsux what in the hell's name are you doing here, why are you on Jaunty? Isn't that typical MS hypocrisy, I don't see this as satire in any sense. The fact that you have to make an effort to parody Linux because it doesn't fit your M$ framework is good enough to show your real intentions. How bout creating M$ sucks.com what would be the point of that?

[Arup]

Arup -

Have you ever met a real FOSS troll? Someone feeling the hate Linus is talking about combined with their own sense of self-righteousness?

There are many of these people around, but you don't see them as much on these forums as elsewhere because UF is kinda a fieldtrip for a lot of those guys... They drop in here, get a few threads locked, maybe stop when they get IP banned... Then they go home.

The worst ones are usually recognizable within a few posts because they have been going around in circles for so long inside their heads that they can't obsfucate their style without reverting to highly distinct language and sentence patterns.

Get a proxy server and a throwaway OS install and go looking for these people. Not only will you find them, you will find some of the most disturbing websites on the nets.


Fully agreed and have even encountered and met few in Linux meets, that doesn't negate the fact that myriads of MS trolls pop in on daily basis just to make a stupid snide attack on Ubuntu and Linux in general. The fact they are making a website to parody Linux goes to show openly on who is sweating more under the collar.

[Icehuck]

Sorry if the word retard offends you, its meant in general, not for those who are unfortunately born with the condition. I continue using the word for those who attack a free alternate OS, there is no forcing one to use it or any advertising. Its about choice.

If you are a part of linsux what in the hell's name are you doing here, why are you on Jaunty? Isn't that typical MS hypocrisy, I don't see this as satire in any sense. The fact that you have to make an effort to parody Linux because it doesn't fit your M$ framework is good enough to show your real intentions. How bout creating M$ sucks.com what would be the point of that?

Honest question. Do you like to troll and/or start flame wars? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you don't. However, your message seems to be full of some misdirected spite.

[Arup]

Honest question. Do you like to troll and/or start flame wars? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you don't. However, your message seems to be full of some misdirected spite.

Misdirected spite on someone who makes a site called linsux? What flamewars are we talking about. Why is this irking you or am I to assume you are a M$ troll who is truly getting hurt at all this?

[starcannon]

Oh, not this again...

1. Please refrain from using words like "retard", my cousins were born with Ausberger's Syndrome, and they are bullied in school for it.

2. Linsux went over a bunch of reforming. (See front-ish end of this thread)

3. I'm part of Linsux.org, and although many of my ideologies clash with the members here, this is one of the few online communities that are truly friendly all-around. I don't want this dissolving into *YET ANOTHER* flamewar about how "bad" some website that you don't agree with is. Everybody's different, Linsux.org operates largely under satire anymore, etc, etc.

4. One of the worst things about the internet is that two people from different ideologies will bash and hate upon each other, without ever getting to know what kinds of people they're really dealing with. For all I know, you could be the nicest guy in real life, but calling a forum full of people "retards" is not very nice, online OR offline.

5. Linsux.org actually does not advocate for trolling. We tried migrating over to UF briefly to introduce ourselves and interact, and it was taken badly. These other people that do this are not part of our community.

Umm... you hang out and post regularly at linsux; I'm shocked that you were offended by anything here on UF; were pretty mellow. Linsux not only advocates trolling, but after trolling/raiding other peoples forums, they like to go back to linsux and have droll little lulz about it; including calling people from the boards they raid "retards" and thats one of the nicer things I think I've seen them say on their boards. Please, remember everyone that is posting here knows how to read, they too can view the linsux.org forums and see what is said and what the attitude and atmosphere of that place is. No need to advertise it as anything but what it really is, unless your going to shut down anon lurking so that outsiders can't verify your statements about the place.

[overdrank]

Closed for review. back on topic

[saulgoode]

Pedro Rosario has written a nice rebuttal (http://prosario2000.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/125/) to Mr Torvalds comments.

[aesis05401]

So the recurring theme throughout this thread seems to be that there is too much scar tissue in our community in general. Does that sound like a balanced observation based on the evidence here?

Is Linus being too optimistic in his assessment of the community bond we are supposed to be sharing? After all - his framing of this conversation seemed designed to give us all a kick in the pants with regards to the 'do unto others...' part of our communal identity.

[aesis05401]

@saulgoode: I did not see a whole lot of productive thought in that piece.

What was the point of dragging ESR into this. He has been the easiest target since he wrote 'Surprised by Wealth' like ten years ago. Did I miss something here? I think that author just needed to start a fight. Maybe Linus was doing nothing more than starting a fight with his own comments. I hope that is not the case on either man's side.

[handy]

Anyone with hate in them is sick.

Peace not war.

[moster]

Anyone with hate in them is sick.

Peace not war.

Choose peace, not war. is little hard when someone is trying to surgically remove you like a cancer.

[RiceMonster]

Choose peace, not war. is little hard when someone is trying to surgically remove you like a cancer.

*sigh*

[Tipped OuT]

*sigh*

+1

*sigh*

[moster]

*sigh*


+1

*sigh*

Children, I did not know you are awake, go back to sleep :D

[bodhi.zazen]

anyone with hate in them is sick.

Peace not war.

+1

[ikt]

Definitions of hate on the Web:

dislike intensely; feel antipathy or aversion towards; "I hate Mexican food"; "She detests politicians"

Microsoft has highly paid lawyers willing to sue linux, make millions from it, and hold it back...and they know it.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/05/28/100033867/

I hate microsoft, I don't like how they stifle competition by trying to eliminate the competition, not by simply making better products but by using legal loopholes, they use massive amount of FUD and unsavory business practices to sell their products and put people out of jobs.


Anyone with hate in them is sick.

Peace not war.

That's just ridiculous.

A person who doesn't have hate in them is probably living in a fantasy land.

[Tipped OuT]

Children, I did not know you are awake, go back to sleep :D

Not everyone lives in the same time zone as you.

[moster]

I hate being sick. Microsoft make me sick.

(If you want that wrapped up, with bow tie on top)

[Mr. Picklesworth]

On the GNU / Linux argument: We wouldn't be having this argument if "GNU" had a real name :P

Of course, I definitely agree with Linus on this one. It's about time someone level-headed and influential spoke out about this. Kudos to him and all who agree with him!

[saulgoode]

@saulgoode: I did not see a whole lot of productive thought in that piece.

What was the point of dragging ESR into this. He has been the easiest target since he wrote 'Surprised by Wealth' like ten years ago. Did I miss something here? I think that author just needed to start a fight. Maybe Linus was doing nothing more than starting a fight with his own comments. I hope that is not the case on either man's side.
The productive thought I would point out is that not all Free Software advocates "hate" Microsoft and that not all "haters" of Microsoft are members of the Free Software community.

The Free Software community is not any more a "hater" of Microsoft than other communities. Open Source proponents, the BSD communities, and even the kernel developers all have their share of what one might consider "haters" -- it should not even be difficult to find "haters" amongst vendors of proprietary software (in fact, there are probably quite a few "victims" of Microsoft's predatory business practices which bear a loathing towards the corporation).

Singling out the relatively reserved admonitions from the Free Software Foundation that Microsoft is doing "evil" -- and characterizing this as "hatred" or a "disease" -- exhibits a lack of apprehension of the situation. If Mr Torvalds wishes to disassociate himself with people who despise Microsoft, he'd better be willing to expand his list of communities to be shunned.

[decoherence]

Microsoft hatred is Microsoft experience.

I doubt Linus has ever been on the phone with MS tech support for hours trying to get PowerPoint to work the way it's supposed to, only to be told (after re-installing it) that it seems to be a bug in PowerPoint and oh by the way, you just used up one of your free support calls.

For me, not hating Microsoft would require a lobotomy or an amnesia inducing blow to the head.

PS. Thank you, Linus, for informing me that I have a disease. Once again you are a pillar of thoughtfulness and fountain of useful advice *coughcough*

[moster]

Everybody on this subject should ask himself What do I think of Microsoft doing to stay on top?

1. They are doing evil things.
2. I am neutral. Peace.
3. I love it.

To someone is logically of course to be neutral. But actually those kind of people tend to stay neutral until evil happens to them. After that they just cry for help from one of other two groups.

[raronson]

News to me, I didn't know people who used source based distros were immature. Please could you post that at the gentoo forums we would get a kick out of that.

You took that out of context...

If you go 5 or 6 years back into the Gentoo forums, you will see me posting there and writing tutorials, asking for help, etc. If Bsdforums.org was still up, you could find me there as well in the FreeBSD section.

[kk0sse54]

You took that out of context...

If you go 5 or 6 years back into the Gentoo forums, you will see me posting there and writing tutorials, asking for help, etc. If Bsdforums.org was still up, you could find me there as well in the FreeBSD section.

I took it in context to your post

@moster:

Yeah, that's absolutely right. A lot of "harcore" users are turned off by Ubuntu because they think it's edging too close to Windows, or because they take pride in manually configuring their system.

Though I suspect a lot of us have built Linux From Scratch, installed Gentoo, used Debian, Arch, FreeBSD, etc., many times over years. I know the system well enough to let a distribution make sensible choices for me at this point (and I can always follow up post-install). I don't need to manually edit every config on the drive, or compile every package from source using the most optimal flags. For what? Control? Knowledge? Braggin' rights? The people in that camp are just immature (though I wouldn't call them elitist, since their opinion comes from a petty place). I like what Paul says in Corinthians 13:

(11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.


Yes I am turned off from Ubuntu because of the lack of control over the system that I get with other OSs, and I like to edit my config files myself, and I like to edit my make.conf and enable CFLAGS and CPUTYPE etc etc since I compile everything. Does that make me immature? If there's another meaning to that whole post please inform me since english isn't my first language maybe I've just got it all wrong :???:

[starcannon]

Pedro Rosario has written a nice rebuttal (http://prosario2000.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/125/) to Mr Torvalds comments.
+1, not only is this an excellent rebuttal, but it is also an excellent article that can stand alone as well. Fantastic reading, a "don't miss" piece for anyone interested in the topic of this thread.

As for Make Peace, Not War, that would be nice; but, I live here on Planet Earth, and as I look around I see even something as beautiful and saccharin as a humming bird fighting it out, beaks clashing, over a sugar water dispenser. Ants, lions, primates of all sorts, the list goes on and on through all of nature have wars and disputes; we have not evolved away from this primality. Sometimes its a good day for peace, sometimes its a good day for war; one must be able to recognize which is which, and to not tie "good and evil" judgment values onto war and peace, no more so than one ties a judgment value to a tornado. FOSS has been under the constant pressure and veiled threat, and direct attack of MS for many years now; anyone that would not be suspicious of their activities would imo be being naive at best. Hatred is easy when one has taken the time to earn it, and MS in my eyes has earned it; I give no sympathy on this subject.

Okies well, anyway, nice to see thread on topic again, and thats a few more of my views on the subject.

GL and HF

P.S. I'd like to amend before clicking the "Submit Reply" button, that while I don't think war and peace are any more evil or good than tornadoes or rainbows; I do think that reasons for going to war, or for embracing peace can have good/evil judgment attached to them, though war/peace acts alone, imo, are just part of the grand natural design.

[moster]

I am happy to see that this thread is not locked. This is why this forum is truly one of best. You cannot have freedom in speech and not get little rough. Specially in such delicate theme like this one.

@starcannon
You describe some things much better that I would. I agree.

One little add.
I live trough real war for independence not so long ago in Europe. Must say this. When war comes for you, there is no other thing to choose but to be a soldier or woman.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

I live trough real war for independence not so long ago in Europe. Must say this. When war comes for you, there is no other thing to choose but to be a soldier or woman.

I think that highlights a pretty major difference between you and I, then. I see the viewing of any collective as one to be a dangerous illusion. (For example a corporation, which, by the way, is legally a single person; or a nation; a particular religious group; a particular ethnic group; or a particular gender). There are many intricacies here that make every single individual different.

If war 'comes for me', unless I am brainwashed by that point or honestly am committed to every last detail the opposing party sees in us as a collective, I'll probably blame my nearest political representative for making us (as a nation) look like idiots. Then I will either ignore the entire thing or find the nearest plane ticket out, depending on how significant the threat is to me as an individual.

And no, this isn't an "I only care about me and my family" thing. This is just the thought that nobody can or should be pitted against a single culture, corporation or religion as a whole; doing so is just plain stupid. Retaliating as a group would only encourage the perpetrators, solidifying their belief that we are all like-minded, willing enemies.
A fine, lighter example is the stereotype that Canadians hate Americans. It is not at all unusual for your usual Canadian individual to know and be good friends with at least a few American individuals. Of course the example is flawed since the entire thing is just a bit of a joke, but I think similar examples can be found just about anywhere.

[zekopeko]

*sigh*

+1

[CharmyBee]

I can't see how picking a different operating system can endanger a life, unless you live next to a very angry, violent one-sided nerd.

[buntunub]

Wow! What a fantastic reply Pedro! He clearly states all the things most of us FOSS guys have known about for quite some time, and does a great job of summing up what most of us think about Microsoft. Unfortunately, because some people prefer to live with blinders on they will refuse to see the truth right up to the point where Microsoft finally makes a patent claim on some of that kernel code that Torvalds is going to wrap in, or some of that Mono/C# code -- but only AFTER alot of apps have been subverted by it and become prolific enough to really cause serious damage. Oh yes, it will happen, and then what are the "yes men" going to say?..

Oh, I didnt know!.. OMG I cant believe that Microsoft would do that!..

Too little, too late, damage done. Hopefully, it wont be damage that will be so irreparable that there wont be a fix for it. So many things Microsoft has done that has been outright anti-competitive, subversive, and in every way foul. Such a short memory we have.

[handy]

Not having hate inside, doesn't mean being blind to reality. In fact it allows reality to be seen with out that particular filter on.

Hate like anger & so many other things cause our brain to make chemicals (neuropeptides) that our cells become addicted to. As time goes by we need bigger & bigger hits of these chemicals, because the receptors for these chemicals brake down due to a feedback loop.

We can be far more productive in any given direction where we find an obstruction, if our minds & bodies are not clouded by negative emotions.

[zekopeko]

Wow! What a fantastic reply Pedro! He clearly states all the things most of us FOSS guys have known about for quite some time, and does a great job of summing up what most of us think about Microsoft. Unfortunately, because some people prefer to live with blinders on they will refuse to see the truth right up to the point where Microsoft finally makes a patent claim on some of that kernel code that Torvalds is going to wrap in, or some of that Mono/C# code -- but only AFTER alot of apps have been subverted by it and become prolific enough to really cause serious damage. Oh yes, it will happen, and then what are the "yes men" going to say?..

Oh, I didnt know!.. OMG I cant believe that Microsoft would do that!..

Too little, too late, damage done. Hopefully, it wont be damage that will be so irreparable that there wont be a fix for it. So many things Microsoft has done that has been outright anti-competitive, subversive, and in every way foul. Such a short memory we have.

Naaaaaa. The developers are simply going to hack around the issue or remove the infringing code. And considering that this is FLOSS we are talking about apps that use the infringing code will get fixed, updates pushed to end users, a bunch of people writing MS hate filled posts and a smaller (smarter) bunch saying how MS top management are a bunch of assholes.
BTW buntunub you might want to read on GPLv2 and why you can't claim patent infringement on something you licensed under it. Estoppel is also a nice read on the legal part of things.
Ahhhh! I just love the smell of reason in the morning.

[raronson]

I took it in context to your post


Yes I am turned off from Ubuntu because of the lack of control over the system that I get with other OSs, and I like to edit my config files myself, and I like to edit my make.conf and enable CFLAGS and CPUTYPE etc etc since I compile everything. Does that make me immature? If there's another meaning to that whole post please inform me since english isn't my first language maybe I've just got it all wrong :???:

I'm not picking a fight or anything, I just tried to clarify that point, which you still seem to be taking issue with. Sorry for that if it confuses you.

As plain as I can say it: there's a minority faction within distros like Gentoo (I think the disparaging term is "Gentoo-rice-burners" last time I heard it--and that came from a Debian Sid forum long ago by the way) who basically suggest that any distro which attempts to make things easier via auto-configuration is a sell-out Windows clone for stupid noobs. Yes, I think that is an immature opinion to have.

Ubuntu doesn't stop being Linux because it autoconfiged my network with DHCP. I don't lose gcc, python, awk, or LISP just because it's a friendly desktop. That'd be like saying that the PBI installer in PC-BSD is for dummies because it doesn't make a new user really understand the ports system. If a non-technical close relative of yours used a distro that made them compile X, how far would they get without your help?

I guess the point is that I don't personally care for distro wars--I just want to see more people using Free and Open Source Software. Different distros have different goals in mind--but when it's all said and done, they all do the same thing. I've heard people say that Linux is getting too easy, and soon every average Joe will be trying to use it, and when that happens, they say they'll have to start using something less well known to get away from all the idiots. Those are the opinions that I'm referring to.

I can't think of an easier way to clarify my point. I'm using Arch right now for a home server, and I play around with it on a separate parition on my laptop using OpenBox for a nice light environment. Do you really think I'm calling myself immature because I manually configed my Arch installs? Is it the Bible verse that I used? I'm an Atheist if it makes any difference to you...

I'm sure it's just language... Really, anyone who takes offense must be a Gentoo Rice Burner or something. <-- totally kidding (/duck) :)

[kk0sse54]

^^Thank You

[kingjere]

I post in this thread against my better judgment, but it may be worth remembering that in nearly all Internet forums your identity is limited to a clever screen name and an avatar. What I mean by this is that members of the forums come from every age group and therefore may be acting childish because they are indeed children. While I would encourage the adults to set an example worthy to be followed, a little understanding along with gentle correction may be worth while. The future generations of Linux users may be watching right now.

[Tipped OuT]

I'm not picking a fight or anything, I just tried to clarify that point, which you still seem to be taking issue with. Sorry for that if it confuses you.

As plain as I can say it: there's a minority faction within distros like Gentoo (I think the disparaging term is "Gentoo-rice-burners" last time I heard it--and that came from a Debian Sid forum long ago by the way) who basically suggest that any distro which attempts to make things easier via auto-configuration is a sell-out Windows clone for stupid noobs. Yes, I think that is an immature opinion to have.

Ubuntu doesn't stop being Linux because it autoconfiged my network with DHCP. I don't lose gcc, python, awk, or LISP just because it's a friendly desktop. That'd be like saying that the PBI installer in PC-BSD is for dummies because it doesn't make a new user really understand the ports system. If a non-technical close relative of yours used a distro that made them compile X, how far would they get without your help?

I guess the point is that I don't personally care for distro wars--I just want to see more people using Free and Open Source Software. Different distros have different goals in mind--but when it's all said and done, they all do the same thing. I've heard people say that Linux is getting too easy, and soon every average Joe will be trying to use it, and when that happens, they say they'll have to start using something less well known to get away from all the idiots. Those are the opinions that I'm referring to.

I can't think of an easier way to clarify my point. I'm using Arch right now for a home server, and I play around with it on a separate parition on my laptop using OpenBox for a nice light environment. Do you really think I'm calling myself immature because I manually configed my Arch installs? Is it the Bible verse that I used? I'm an Atheist if it makes any difference to you...

I'm sure it's just language... Really, anyone who takes offense must be a Gentoo Rice Burner or something. <-- totally kidding (/duck) :)



I salute you.

[MikeTheC]

http://www.dancewithshadows.com/media/images/anakin-skywalker.jpg

"I, for one, enjoy letting the anti-Microsoft hatred flow through me."

[handy]

http://www.dancewithshadows.com/media/images/anakin-skywalker.jpg

"I, for one, enjoy letting the anti-Microsoft hatred flow through me."

We always new you were an agent for the dark lord. (Is that what you wanted me to say?) :)

[jomiolto]

One little add.
I live trough real war for independence not so long ago in Europe. Must say this. When war comes for you, there is no other thing to choose but to be a soldier or woman.

Ouch! :(

Do you have any idea how sexist and offending that comment is?

[handy]

The environment in combination with the genes he inherited are totally responsible for his actions.

So, where does free will stand in all of this? :D

[Tipped OuT]

Ouch! :(

Do you have any idea how sexist and offending that comment is?

/report

:P

[moster]

Ouch! :(

Do you have any idea how sexist and offending that comment is?

Oh, pink ponies again... I do not know what are you exactly.

I will make more easy for you and mr. Pickelsworth to understand. There is difference for being in war as american in iraq or vietnam and defending your home being blown away. In that time it is FORBIDDEN BY LAW to be a coward and sit on plane like you said.

In most european countries there is obligation to serve in army for while to be prepared for situations like this.

@MikeTheC
Ballmer is not exactly Master Yoda.

[jomiolto]

Oh, pink ponies again... I do not know what are you exactly.

:)


I will make more easy for you and mr. Pickelsworth to understand. There is difference for being in war as american in iraq or vietnam and defending your home being blown away. In that time it is FORBIDDEN BY LAW to be a coward and sit on plane like you said.

In most european countries there is obligation to serve in army for while to be prepared for situations like this.

In some European countries, not most. I happen to live in a country where this is also the case, and I understand your point very well (even if I might disagree with it). I was not referring to that, but instead to this (emphasis mine):


When war comes for you, there is no other thing to choose but to be a soldier or woman.

If that was aimed at me personally, I might very well take it as a compliment (and for good reasons :) ), but I think using "woman" (or any other such group of people) as an insult is highly offensive to those people.

[jomiolto]

@jomiolto
I do not know any reason that you should be offended IF you are woman. In harsh time like that your obligation would be to take you children and wife in safe and you take a stand.

Perhaps I misinterpreted you then, but it sounded like you were using "woman" as an insult. But that still makes your statement rather exclusive; "soldier or woman". Does that mean that women can't be soldiers? And what about the people who are neither?


quoted post deleted

If everyone fled, there would be no wars. :)

But these matters are merely speculation on my part, since I've never been involved in a war (and I hope I never will be) and I do not know how I would act if I was.

Anyway, this forum really isn't the place to discuss these things and we should probably stop before we hijack the whole thread and anger our benevolent Moderator overlords :P

Maybe I'll try and write an on-topic post to this thread for a change...

[moster]

Perhaps I misinterpreted you then, but it sounded like you were using "woman" as an insult. But that still makes your statement rather exclusive; "soldier or woman". Does that mean that women can't be soldiers? And what about the people who are neither?

Of course woman can be soldiers but that is not their obligation. I do not know what you mean by "neither" people. Other like Lady GaGa maybe? :) I guess they can choose too.

edit:
Of course, children and elderly. But I thought it was obvious.



If everyone fled, there would be no wars. :)

But these matters are merely speculation on my part, since I've never been involved in a war (and I hope I never will be) and I do not know how I would act if I was.

Anyway, this forum really isn't the place to discuss these things and we should probably stop before we hijack the whole thread and anger our benevolent Moderator overlords :P

Maybe I'll try and write an on-topic post to this thread for a change...

I respectfully disagree with that "if everyone fled..." we live in hard world and we are far from perfect society. So.. if MOST of us fled, that mean that bunch of football hooligans from England can occupy whatever they want. :) Ok, we can back on topic now.

[MikeTheC]

Ballmer is not exactly Master Yoda.
No, you're right. He's more like one of those slime from the Trade Federation.

[moster]

No, you're right. He's more like one of those slime from the Trade Federation.

I always thought Paul Allen is that senator Palpatine. True evil mastermind from shadow.

[raronson]

So, where does free will stand in all of this? :D

Free Will is illusory, and it's loaded language meant to appeal to our anthropic sensibilities. I think it'd make many people very uncomfortable to come to terms with just how automatic they really are. It's a pet theory of mine that the brain attempts to spare us the pain and shield us from this knowledge; hence the reason that we're predisposed to certain memes which suggest that we're in the driver's seat. Howbeit I suspect we can only turn the wheel about 10 degrees left or right.

[starcannon]

The environment in combination with the genes he inherited are totally responsible for his actions.

So, where does free will stand in all of this? :D

I have actually been wondering on that subject lightly myself lately; I caught the tail end of a news report some weeks back suggesting free will is heavily influenced by genetic markers. That is to say, our judgment is clouded by our genetic make up; clouded, not, determined. Its worth a google to learn more, I just haven't take then time to do so yet.

I'd also like to assure people that I am not pro-war, but neither am I pro-peace; instead I am more interested in doing what must be done in any situation. I prefer peace, no question about it, I also prefer Philia to Hate, but I do not judge either as good or evil; some things are broken to the point of being devoid of any feelings of philia, some things are not; some things are adversarial to the point of something much less than simply devoid of philia, and the word I associate with that state is hate.

I agree with Handy on much of the subject, just not maybe to the degree that Handy does; I also agree that emotions can become addictive, for the reasons Handy has given. It is always important to remain grounded, especially when considering an extreme emotion like Hate, or War, both of which can cause much damage, and grieviously so when misplaced.

I disagree with Linus when he says, "Microsoft Hatred Is a Disease"; I do not think it is a disease, at worst it is misplaced, and is a bad judgment; at best it is appropriate, and is good judgment. But it is not a disease, though perhaps it has evolved into a meme... Okay, rambling now.

GL

[Mr. Picklesworth]

I will make more easy for you and mr. Pickelsworth to understand. There is difference for being in war as american in iraq or vietnam and defending your home being blown away. In that time it is FORBIDDEN BY LAW to be a coward and sit on plane like you said.

That I know (which is why I tried to pose a ridiculous made up example), but I still don't share that belief. Different upbringings and all. I have to avoid making a political discussion, but the region one lives in really dictates how one comes to approach this sort of issue.

Just so you know, what you said is not a universal truth in the slightest. You have my understanding, sympathies, etcetera., but there's definitely no convincing me :)
The word "you" made me have to challenge it, as I usually challenge anything that tells me what I do and is wrong. (I also thought it a brilliant opportunity to turn my post into an allegory to address the "hating Microsoft" thing). Now, as you said... back to the topic!

[MikeTheC]

To all of our overseas friends around the world, on behalf of America I would like to personally apologize for Microsoft and Bill Gates. We didn't mean it. Honest. We'll try harder next time.

Yours truly,

MikeTheC

[geekygirl]

MikeTheC:

Apology accepted....(I think :confused: :P )

[ubudog]

Go Linus!:D

[moster]

To all of our overseas friends around the world, on behalf of America I would like to personally apologize for Microsoft and Bill Gates. We didn't mean it. Honest. We'll try harder next time.

Yours truly,

MikeTheC

haha, thanks, it is really a nice gesture :)

[CharmyBee]

I think Trek analogies are more suited than the Wars ones. I can sure for say there is a lot of Wesley in this thread...

[raronson]

To all of our overseas friends around the world, on behalf of America I would like to personally apologize for Microsoft and Bill Gates. We didn't mean it. Honest. We'll try harder next time.

Yours truly,

MikeTheC

No need to apologize, UNIX is American as well as its antithesis GNU :)

[handy]

Further on the "free will" sidetrack, this fellow Daniel Dennet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett) has certainly given it some thought, some of his books deal with the subject:

Intentional Stance
Consciousness Explained
Elbow Room
Freedom Evolves

Links to wiki pages that explore most of those books further can be found in the wiki article I linked to above.

This page on qualia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia) is pretty interesting also.

[Nen]

raronson, I understand what you're getting at.

------

I have a few things I'd like to say about all this.

First off, I can't help that Linus either isn't able to -- or simply doesn't want to -- put all the pieces together here and see the larger picture of why we hate Microsoft. I have all the respect in the world for the man, but frankly I think he sometimes needs to just shut his mouth, because in situations like these he just makes himself look like an idiot. Microsoft has brought negative sentiment on itself through its past bad acts and current strangle-hold hegemony on the computer world. It's not like everyone uses Windows "because it's the best thing ever" but simply because it's a matter of social inertia which Microsoft to this day does everything it can to help maintain.

Moreover, I don't think everyone out there who has a computer actually *should* have a computer. One of the unfortunate effects of Microsoft's (or even AOL's) marketing and product positioning efforts is that they've sucked up the scum and garbage of humanity along with decent, intelligent and self-sufficient folk, and it has simply co-opted and corrupted the technology world. It has also had the effect of tying a millstone around the collective necks of the rest of us, and it's done it in a very socially pernicious way.

I don't think we need to be arrogant or rude as a technological society, but I also don't think we should act like we need to wear kid gloves and treat every user or potential user out there like some fragile and delicate thing. As I said, some people were never meant to -- and simply shouldn't -- own or use a computer. We need to be nice, professional and polite, but sooner or later we need to draw the line.

Why is that? If people are able to use computers with Microsoft's software without being computer literate, then why should they be forbidden from using them?
I guess that people shouldn't be allowed to drive a cas if they don't know how they work, either. Or watch television. Or play video games.

This post is a good example of why many people think all Linux users are elitist assholes.


What this has to do with the point of this thread is simply that there's an awful lot of people out there living a dumbed down technological experience, and without regard to what we do with those people in the Linux world, this is basically a "social welfare" product of Microsoft's actions, and is yet another reason to take great umbrage at their continued existence.
Most people are perfectly happy with just having a "dumbed down technological experience". They are just happy with using a computer that works for them and runs their software right away. They have better things to do with their time than wasting days learning some computer language, then spending many hours customizing their OS and troubleshooting problems.

And if you think that makes them so inferior that they aren't worthy of using a computer, then I truly feel sorry for you.

[zekopeko]

Free Will is illusory, and it's loaded language meant to appeal to our anthropic sensibilities. I think it'd make many people very uncomfortable to come to terms with just how automatic they really are. It's a pet theory of mine that the brain attempts to spare us the pain and shield us from this knowledge; hence the reason that we're predisposed to certain memes which suggest that we're in the driver's seat. Howbeit I suspect we can only turn the wheel about 10 degrees left or right.

Your analogy sucks. Any change to orientation larger then 0 leads to a different destination. Try applying this to astronomy and see were it "takes" you.

[raronson]

If that bugs you, you should see what Nobel Laureate physicist Steven Weinberg has to say. Astronomy is a bad choice for telling me where to stick it. I'm a member of my city's Astronomical Society.

[moster]

He ask for it, and he get it. hahaha

[zekopeko]

If that bugs you, you should see what Nobel Laureate physicist Steven Weinberg has to say. Astronomy is a bad choice for telling me where to stick it. I'm a member of my city's Astronomical Society.

Your analogy still sucks. Ability to change one's direction no matter how small is still free will to change direction. And I don't see how your association with the Astronomical Society has anything to do with what I said. It should only be clearer to you what I was trying to convey.

[raronson]

Oh my reply was in good fun, don't take offence. Here's a short article which attempts to disprove neurological determinism by argument. I don't want to just preach my side to you. My opinion is not entirely orthodox anyway, which is why I referred you to Weingerg.

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/unconscious_brain_activity_shapes_our_decisions.ph p

If you read that, you'll see why my analogy doesn't suck--but remember that no analogy is perfect. Lastly, the reason I take issue with the term "Free Will" and call it loaded language, is that it's a medieval Catholic doctrine--after all, we can't have salvation or damnation without it. If the medieval Catholic Church had it's way, then the Earth would still be the center of the cosmos; this is what our immediate perceptions tell us, right? Though we're found that our perceptions of the world can be wrong.

Seriously though, whatever you do, DON'T picture a red bicycle.

[zekopeko]

Oh my reply was in good fun, don't take offence. Here's a short article which attempts to disprove neurological determinism by argument. I don't want to just preach my side to you. My opinion is not entirely orthodox anyway, which is why I referred you to Weingerg.

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2008/04/unconscious_brain_activity_shapes_our_decisions.ph p

If you read that, you'll see why my analogy doesn't suck--but remember that no analogy is perfect. Lastly, the reason I take issue with the term "Free Will" and call it loaded language, is that it's a medieval Catholic doctrine--after all, we can't have salvation or damnation without it. If the medieval Catholic Church had it's way, then the Earth would still be the center of the cosmos; this is what our immediate perceptions tell us, right? Though we're found that our perceptions of the world can be wrong.

Seriously though, whatever you do, DON'T picture a red bicycle.

Interesting read. I think I read it before or a similar study. The main problem I see there, on a cursory glance, is that we are evolutionary not in full control of our faculties. Most of our response are predetermined by evolutionary needs and our experiences.
But even if you are predetermined by your unconscious part of the brain you still have an option of not doing it as the article points out.
Free will and determinism IMO can only exist in a philosophical sense (for now) since they are ideological extremes created without full understanding of our universe/existence. I think you agree with me on this part, no? Anyway I'm going to stop now since this is a broad topic with no definite conclusion and I find such debates better had when both sides are mildly intoxicated :)

[handy]

Broadly I agree with you too, zekopeko; the greatest philosophical minds of our time are still arguing over their mind experiments about free will.

Which certainly indicates to me that there is still no obvious answer available to humanity at this point in time.

Some people may find satisfactory answers to this question through there own unusual experiences, but those people usually aren't scientists, & have rarely if ever written papers for scientific dissection by peer review, & just for the record, they don't need to belong to any kind of religion either...

[raronson]

Yeah, I do agree with that. Like so many other things, sense is found somewhere in the midst of the extremes. Though whatever the truth of the matter is, I still maintain that people would be thoroughly disturbed if they had to consciously process just how automated they really are.

I remember reading "Prey" by Michael Chrichton a number of years ago, and I nearly crawled out of my skin when he spoke of humans being just so many swarms of specialized cells all coming together for mutual survival advantage. In Richard Dawkins' book, "The Selfish Gene", anything that houses DNA is spoke of as a survival machine for DNA; with nature just building better and better machines through the process of natural selection.

Who knows, maybe the next form of intelligent life will answer these questions, since they won't have a symbiotic relationship with DNA, or be bogged down by superstition. Oddly, maybe one day thinking machines will finally be able to answer the question of what it means to be conscious. Though I bet the answer will be something trivial like, it's a natural consequence of complexity.

[zekopeko]

Yeah, I do agree with that. Like so many other things, sense is found somewhere in the midst of the extremes.

Couldn't agree more.

EDIT: That should have been couldn't...

[MikeTheC]

Why is that? <snip>
The root of it has fundamentally to do with a these people having a lack of personal responsibility. Fundamentally, whether we're talking about computers or real life, there is no difference. I've had to support these sorts of idiots, and I'm telling you there is no value to the rest of society by them having and using a computer. Period.

[Wiebelhaus]

There may be a legitimate difference between someone who's been involved with linux for 15+ years and someone who has only been for a few years , the old schoolers may very well have grown out of the hatred for Microsoft but I do feel at some point probably early in their love affair with Linux they did hate. My reason for the disdain I feel for Microsoft is simply that I have to deal with their mediocrity on a daily basis but then again they have given me allot of paying work over the years so I guess I owe a bit of gratitude to them for that.

[MikeTheC]

You know, this is like the measurement system thread of recent weeks. I have my own feelings about Microsoft and there are others who for one reason or another do not share my sentiments. It's a free universe. However, I don't appreciate it when others try to suggest or imply I shouldn't have -- as a response to a given set of causative actions -- the certain specific kinds of feelings I do, as though somehow it's unjustified.

I don't "need" *anyone* else's permission to feel the way I do about Microsoft, and that includes Linus himself. Sometimes I think he's an incredibly intelligent idiot. I dunno, I guess people can get so wrapped up in what they do that they can't see anything else.

[the8thstar]

I think Linus is missing the forest for the tree. Microsoft unethical business practices have been demonstrated amply on many occasions. So there is a REAL justification for not liking Microsoft as a company.

So no hatred for me, but a real dislike for MS on my part.

[handy]

I guess people can get so wrapped up in what they do that they can't see anything else.

That about wraps it up for all of us really. :popcorn: A certain inbuilt arrogance comes with our individuality it would seem, even though we can think we are immune from such failings. ;)

[moster]

I don't "need" *anyone* else's permission to feel the way I do about Microsoft, and that includes Linus himself. Sometimes I think he's an incredibly intelligent idiot. I dunno, I guess people can get so wrapped up in what they do that they can't see anything else.

haha, I do have great respect for Linus and his words have certain weight, but I agree with you :)

[Viva]

I think Linus is missing the forest for the tree. Microsoft unethical business practices have been demonstrated amply on many occasions. So there is a REAL justification for not liking Microsoft as a company.

So no hatred for me, but a real dislike for MS on my part.

Amen.

I've said this before and saying this again, if you think the only reason people hate Microsoft is because they use a different operating system or browser, then you're dead wrong. If you think they hate Microsoft because they produce proprietary software, then you're still wrong.

[handy]

We can pick on whichever corporation we choose, though it rarely ever makes any difference.

Understanding that the paradigms allowing the corp's to dominate the world as they do, are a very sick set of complexes, being short sighted, selfish & rarely ever interested in the promotion of an equitable use of the worlds resources or of a caring attitude regarding the biosphere.

Focussing our efforts on positive change regarding this situation is far more productive than bittching about an individual corporation imho.

[RiceMonster]

We can pick on whichever corporation we choose, though it rarely ever makes any difference.

Understanding that the paradigms allowing the corp's to dominate the world as they do, are a very sick set of complexes, being short sighted, selfish & rarely ever interested in the promotion of an equitable use of the worlds resources or of a caring attitude regarding the biosphere.

Focussing our efforts on positive change regarding this situation is far more productive than bittching about an individual corporation imho.

Ah, so well said.

[raronson]

Amen.

I've said this before and saying this again, if you think the only reason people hate Microsoft is because they use a different operating system or browser, then you're dead wrong. If you think they hate Microsoft because they produce proprietary software, then you're still wrong.

Ahhh. That sums it up nicely for me. I rambled so much toward the beginning of this thread because I think it's important for other Linux users to realize that disdain for Microsoft is not simple petty bias.

Some of us have lucidly laid out our objections, which were met with trite replies about how things aren't such a big deal, or how peace and love are better than hate.

Thanks, Viva. Nice chatting with everyone. Even if we disagree.

[jbruced]

QFT! we are all selfish! :D

and selfishness is way bigger than hatred. :KS

+1, best comment I've seen in quite a while.

[TheNosh]

Some of us have lucidly laid out our objections, which were met with trite replies about how things aren't such a big deal, or how peace and love are better than hate.

they're not?

my issue isn't so much that i think theres no reason to hate microsoft, it's just that i question the point of hating microsoft. what does it get you? what does it get anyone? does it make anything better?

i feel like hatred in any capacity directed at anyone is bad for you, and at least in this instance i see no positive effects coming from it.

[moster]

Ok, someone need to cut this crap. Hate is natural like love. It is in human nature. Only few "people" could suppress those feelings and they are more myth then real people. Like Buddha.

[TheNosh]

Ok, someone need to cut this crap. Hate is natural like love. It is in human nature. Only few "people" could suppress those feelings and they are more myth then real people. Like Buddha.

i'm not saying that getting rid of hatred is easy, and i'm certainly not saying i have no hatred in my own life, only that i strive to rid myself hate and that hatred for microsoft was pretty easy to get rid of. hatred is a negative energy and as such it will usually yeild negative results.

and by the way, i wouldn't exactly call Buddha a myth

[Giant Speck]

Ok, someone need to cut this crap. Hate is natural like love. It is in human nature. Only few "people" could suppress those feelings and they are more myth then real people. Like Buddha.

Actually, Buddha was a real person.

[raronson]

You know...

There are people who hate broccoli. Applying hate in the large universal context to this very specific conversation has just increased the number of people who I wouldn't trust to make cool-aid for me. Oh my, I forgot to unsubscribe.

[TheNosh]

Actually, Buddha was a real person.

thank you sir

[handy]

Ok, someone need to cut this crap. Hate is natural like love. It is in human nature. Only few "people" could suppress those feelings and they are more myth then real people. Like Buddha.

I am real & don't feel hate.

Believe it or not, hate is not a part of everyone's human nature.

You can't make such broad generalisations with any validity, when there are over 6 billion people you are talking about. You have no statistics to base your statement on. It is just an assumption that you have pulled out of the air based on your personal experience.

So now the other haters may join up & defend your statement, & possibly those free of hate will refute what they say. & all in all nothing has been gained through the exercise except perhaps an objectification of our own thoughts/feelings/experience & some typing practice. :popcorn: :D

[MikeTheC]

I am real & don't feel hate.
Unless you're someone suffering from cognitive or psychological issues, negative emotions are a part of your emotional spectrum.

Or, on the other hand, you're *not* real.

[TheNosh]

negative emotions are a part of your emotional spectrum.

but at least with hate they aren't a useful part, and through practice and exorcise of self control can be largely overcome.

[raronson]

So now the other haters may join up & defend your statement, & possibly those free of hate will refute what they say. & all in all nothing has been gained through the exercise except perhaps an objectification of our own thoughts/feelings/experience & some typing practice. :popcorn: :D

Okay, I could use some practice, and since you willfully want to misunderstand to narrowly view everything within the context of universal hate, here goes...

I suspect what moster is saying is that many superhuman qualities have been attributed to ordinary people to create idealized versions of them suitable for religious contemplation. Are things really so black and white for you that you can't exact meaning from mere printed text?

You've interjected twice to move the discussion away from talking about why people have legitimate gripes with Microsoft. First you said moster was a product of his genetics and environment, and where does that leave free-will?; which started a discussion about free will versus determinism. When people disagreed, you appointed yourself as the voice of reason saying that no one here has submitted a peer reviewed article to the scientific community on the subject. Can you really not stand disagreement so much, even when it's just healthy debate?

The second time you interjected, it was to say that anyone with hate in them is sick, peace not war. Really? Everyone knows that peace is preferable to war. It has nothing to do with the discussion about why people have legitimate gripes with Microsoft. No one here is advocating voilent war with Microsoft, and even if they did, it would simply be a rhetorical device or a whimsical jab.

Here, go preach to this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mti-AQ-Aqs

He hates broccoli.

[handy]

Unless you're someone suffering from cognitive or psychological issues, negative emotions are a part of your emotional spectrum.

Or, on the other hand, you're *not* real.

Just because I am perfectly physically capable of killing someone doesn't mean that in my life I ever will.

People don't all act the same way to the same set of circumstances. Some may be fully governed by their emotional response, others may have had a similar past experience which has taught them that allowing their emotions to dominate their actions in such circumstances is counter productive; others may have disciplined/educated themselves to the point where the negative emotions don't even exist, as they are seeing this same set of circumstances differently than they once would have or how some others do.

This attitude & way of being is in no way sub-human, or founded in a psychological disease, it is a way that has had intention applied to it.

[KiwiNZ]

Closed for review and cool off