Better Place - an all electric car infrastructure solution

[HappinessNow]

Better Place - an all electric car infrastructure solution

If you haven't read about this yet, Better Place is a real solution to become an all electric car infrastructure.

http://www.betterplace.com/opportunity/

[Swagman]

As your've started a thread on Electric Vehicles I might as well put forward some of my own questions for Propellor heads to have a thrash at and diss/solve..

1: Why can't e-cars have "in wheel" electric motors..doing away with diffs" etc (weight saving) Like my electric bike

2: Why cant a wind tunnel be incorporated in vehicle design with wind generator in venturi and coupled to KERS style capacitors for extra off the mark oomph ?

Surely more small "louvre style" wind tunnel generators could be incorporated to boost up amperage ?


The reason I asked this is that I noticed redundant cooling fans sitting on waste ground at my works turning in very light wind.. How much "turn force" can be gleaned in traffic at 60kmh etc if incorporated in the above mentioned car-wind tunnels ?

[HappinessNow]

As your've started a thread on Electric Vehicles I might as well put forward some of my own questions for Propellor heads to have a thrash at and diss/solve..

1: Why can't e-cars have "in wheel" electric motors..doing away with diffs" etc (weight saving) Like my electric bike

2: Why cant a wind tunnel be incorporated in vehicle design with wind generator in venturi and coupled to KERS style capacitors for extra off the mark oomph ?

Surely more small "louvre style" wind tunnel generators could be incorporated to boost up amperage ?


The reason I asked this is that I noticed redundant cooling fans sitting on waste ground at my works turning in very light wind.. How much "turn force" can be gleaned in traffic at 60kmh etc if incorporated in the above mentioned car-wind tunnels ?not a bad idea.

[RD1]

How do electric cars provide heat?

Being much lighter weight, compared to gasoline vehicles, how will electric cars be in winter conditions? ... snow, ice etc.

[LookTJ]

Has anyone seen this film (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/)(imdb.com)?

[HappinessNow]

Has anyone seen this film (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/)(imdb.com)?nope, is it a comedy?

[LookTJ]

nope, is it a comedy?
From the link


A documentary that investigates the birth and death of the electric car, as well as the role of renewable energy and sustainable living in the future

It was released in 2006. In my opinion, it is worth the watch.

[cariboo]

Electric cars are pretty impractical, unless you live in a small country and never go anywhere.

I live in a resource based area, where many people drive 150Km+ just to get to work every day, and when they get there, there isn't any where to plug in an electric vehicle, as there isn't any electricity.

I also seem to remember seeing that building an electric car creates more pollutants, then a fossil fuel powered vehicle.

Where is the extra power needed to recharge electric cars going to come from.?

What happens to the batteries after an electric car has outlived it usefulness?

[HappinessNow]

Electric cars are pretty impractical, unless you live in a small country and never go anywhere.

I live in a resource based area, where many people drive 150Km+ just to get to work every day, and when they get there, there isn't any where to plug in an electric vehicle, as there isn't any electricity.

I also seem to remember seeing that building an electric car creates more pollutants, then a fossil fuel powered vehicle.

Where is the extra power needed to recharge electric cars going to come from.?

What happens to the batteries after an electric car has outlived it usefulness?

You really need to read about "Better Place" this isn't just about electric cars but electric car infrastructure, which btw Israel is the first country to commit to electric car infrastructure. Portland, Oregon and San Francisco are in a race to become the first cities to building the electric car infrastructure in the USA.

The battery exchange stations will operate pretty much like a gas station does now, when you need to re-juice up you pull in the battery exchange station, they pull out the depleted battery and put in a new one.

This isn't a therotically concept, it is being put into place in countries and cities around the world.

The world's oil reserves will be depleted within approximately 50 years or so. This change will happen for some of us in our lifetime.

also about pollutants, it will only be practical in certain countries, places where they can harness solar energy, nuclear energy, wave energy, hydroelectric energy and wind energy.

Reference these links to do a bit more research:

Better Place in Denmark:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/denmark/

Better Place in Israel:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/israel/

Better Place in Australia:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/australia//

Better Place in Japan:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/japan/

Better Place in Canada:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/canada/

Better Place in United States of America:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/united-states/

[Paqman]

1: Why can't e-cars have "in wheel" electric motors..doing away with diffs" etc (weight saving) Like my electric bike


They can and do. Some electric car designs have independently powered wheels.

Having said that, the design considerations for a bike and a car are different. Your bike has the motor in the wheel because it's a very practical place to put it, since space on the frame of a bike is limited. Cars don't suffer from similar restrictions.



2: Why cant a wind tunnel be incorporated in vehicle design with wind generator in venturi and coupled to KERS style capacitors for extra off the mark oomph ?

Surely more small "louvre style" wind tunnel generators could be incorporated to boost up amperage ?


The reason I asked this is that I noticed redundant cooling fans sitting on waste ground at my works turning in very light wind.. How much "turn force" can be gleaned in traffic at 60kmh etc if incorporated in the above mentioned car-wind tunnels ?

Such a device would create drag. Since the only energy you'd get out of it comes from your forward movement (which you're already expending energy to achieve) then you'd have a net energy loss, not a gain. If it worked otherwise, you'd have discovered a perpetual motion machine.

[HappinessNow]

here is a demo of a Better Place battery exchange station:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHHvjsFm_88

Also here is a great intro. video to illustrate what Better Place is successfully doing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWik9mPvVuk

[cariboo]

How do electric cars provide heat?

Being much lighter weight, compared to gasoline vehicles, how will electric cars be in winter conditions? ... snow, ice etc.

I'm not sure about purely electric cars, but there are quite a few Priuses around here, and when the temps get down to -30˚C the engines don't shut off at traffic lights, you can tell by the steam coming from the tail pipes.

As far as ice and snow goes vehicle weight really isn't a factor as most people don't travel any great distances while it is snowing unless their job depends on it.

[blueturtl]

I don't see why we couldn't have both.

Lot's of people only drive short distances daily (and in conditions tolerable to electric engines). To those people an electric car would be a wonderful solution.

Those who need to go long distances will drive gasoline operated cars or hybrid vehicles at least until competing technologies mature.

[Swagman]

They can and do. Some electric car designs have independently powered wheels.

Having said that, the design considerations for a bike and a car are different. Your bike has the motor in the wheel because it's a very practical place to put it, since space on the frame of a bike is limited. Cars don't suffer from similar restrictions.



Such a device would create drag. Since the only energy you'd get out of it comes from your forward movement (which you're already expending energy to achieve) then you'd have a net energy loss, not a gain. If it worked otherwise, you'd have discovered a perpetual motion machine.

Thanks for answers. My idea wasn't to create a perpetual motion machine regardless how desirable that would be, more to greatly extending the range of the battery.

[Kraut~salat]

1: Why can't e-cars have "in wheel" electric motors..doing away with diffs" etc (weight saving) Like my electric bike


There are vehicles that have "in wheel" motors, called "hub motors". Problem is that they are "before" the suspension and this so called "un-sprung mass" makes for a crappy driving experience. Also since the wheels are directly connected to the rotor of the motor going over bumps and the like will put heavy stress on the rotor. The airgap between rotos and stator has to be big in order to prevent rotor and stator getting into contact while spinning. But a big air gap is bad for motor efficiency.



Being much lighter weight, compared to gasoline vehicles, how will electric cars be in winter conditions? ... snow, ice etc


not true. People forget that the batteries are excessively heavy. The Tesla Roadster was on Top Gear some time ago. They said that it is surprisingly heavy and doesn't drive that well. That's because if the batteries.

How does an electric car make heat?

Well, imagine a 100kW electric car. The efficiency of the power electronics would be in the range of 90%. The motor has about the same efficiency. So of about 100%-(90%*90%)=19% of the total power is wasted into heat. With a 100kW car that is 19kW. That is hell of a lot of wasted energy to make heat of. (still 4 times better than a combustion engine though).

[cb951303]

As your've started a thread on Electric Vehicles I might as well put forward some of my own questions for Propellor heads to have a thrash at and diss/solve..

1: Why can't e-cars have "in wheel" electric motors..doing away with diffs" etc (weight saving) Like my electric bike


Because cars have 4 wheels :) You would at least need 2 motors for 2 of wheels and it would be really expensive/hard to get them in sync.
I don't even want to think what would happen if one of them breaks down while you drive at 100 km/h. Hub motors are ok for 2 and 3 wheel vehicles but not for an ordinary car.

EDIT: Also I don't think you would get any weight saving by that. The primary advantage of hub motors are their efficiency.

[tsali]

This appears to be an admirable effort but their site is filled with some advertising hyperbole.

Electric cars do NOT offer a superior driving experience in thier current iteration. That driving experience must include range, reliability, capability and climate control.

To make battery EVs practical replacements for all applications, significant advances in battery technology are needed.

Additionally, HUGE backend changes will be needed to upgrade power ditribution and generation systems. In countries where a significant fraction of electricity is produced with fossil fuel, the electric car is an environmental nightmare. Even in countries with significant solar and wind resources, the energy availability would be inadequate to support a developed transportation infrastructure.

That leaves one option...nuclear...which work just fine for me...

That said, I think battery switching is a great idea.

Just as I am with my computer operating systems, I believe in using the best tool for the job. I live in the southern US. I need air conditioning and RANGE. When I can get those services from an EV on par with current gasoline vehicles for similar cost, I'll consider one - but not before.

[Swagman]

This appears to be an admirable effort but their site is filled with some advertising hyperbole.

Electric cars do NOT offer a superior driving experience in thier current iteration. That driving experience must include range, reliability, capability and climate control.

To make battery EVs practical replacements for all applications, significant advances in battery technology are needed.

Additionally, HUGE backend changes will be needed to upgrade power ditribution and generation systems. In countries where a significant fraction of electricity is produced with fossil fuel, the electric car is an environmental nightmare. Even in countries with significant solar and wind resources, the energy availability would be inadequate to support a developed transportation infrastructure.

That leaves one option...nuclear...which work just fine for me...

That said, I think battery switching is a great idea.

Just as I am with my computer operating systems, I believe in using the best tool for the job. I live in the southern US. I need air conditioning and RANGE. When I can get those services from an EV on par with current gasoline vehicles for similar cost, I'll consider one - but not before.

Perhaps this is for you then ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8154721.stm

[cb951303]

This appears to be an admirable effort but their site is filled with some advertising hyperbole.

Electric cars do NOT offer a superior driving experience in thier current iteration. That driving experience must include range, reliability, capability and climate control.


*battery exchange station are there to improve the range

*electric cars are probably more reliable than any IC vehicle. they have simpler design and they don't contain dangerous material such as gasoline. Why would you think they are not reliable?

could you elaborate capability?

finally, you can watch this (http://www.ted.com/talks/shai_agassi_on_electric_cars.html) to learn about what Better Place do. It's their CEO talking. He is a well known man, I highly doubt they are a less work/more advertisement company :)

[SuperSonic4]

This is all very well and good but first we should look at how electricity is generated, there are losses involved in transporting electricity including ground leaking. Plus a lot of batteries are DC so transformers and then inverters will be needed at each point - DC transmission was proved impractical over a century ago.

Furthermore a lot of electricity is generated from fossil fuels so what's the point in burning them to make electricty, the only issue would be reducing the need for fractional distillation although a lot of plastics are made that way

[Kraut~salat]

This appears to be an admirable effort but their site is filled with some advertising hyperbole.

Electric cars do NOT offer a superior driving experience in thier current iteration. That driving experience must include range, reliability, capability and climate control.

To make battery EVs practical replacements for all applications, significant advances in battery technology are needed.

Additionally, HUGE backend changes will be needed to upgrade power ditribution and generation systems. In countries where a significant fraction of electricity is produced with fossil fuel, the electric car is an environmental nightmare. Even in countries with significant solar and wind resources, the energy availability would be inadequate to support a developed transportation infrastructure.

That leaves one option...nuclear...which work just fine for me...

That said, I think battery switching is a great idea.

Just as I am with my computer operating systems, I believe in using the best tool for the job. I live in the southern US. I need air conditioning and RANGE. When I can get those services from an EV on par with current gasoline vehicles for similar cost, I'll consider one - but not before.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Traffic/story?id=485098

says the average commute distance in the states is 16 miles one way. That is a really short distance and perfect for an electric car. When I lived in (northern) California I was baffled about how few people have solar panels on their houses. The sun shines pretty much all day long, day in and day. Why not use it?
My dream would be:
people have solar cells on there roofs and some sort of energy storage in their house, be it batteries or hydrogen. They take their electric car to work which was fueled over night by their home energy storage. While they are at work there's no-one at home, mom and dad working, kids at school. So the solar cell energy can be used to recharge the energy storage. While dad is working his electric car, which has some solar cells in the roof, gets partially recharged during daddy's 8 hour work day. Enough energy to drive home another 16 miles.
That way no extra power lines are needed from the plant to your home. On the weekend you can use your regular diesel car to get you places. EVs are good for commute, they already can go the needed distance and they don't waste energy being stuck in traffic.

In Germany we have way more solar panels than I saw in California and we don't even have much sun shine. If there is a state that should go crazy about solar energy it's California.

And about nuclear energy: no thanks. Despite being dangerous (Three Mile Island, Thernobyl) I don't want to dump nuclear waste in the ground for > 20.000 years and hope nothing of that radioactive **** makes it back to us at the surface. My only hope would be nuclear fusion, which is a lot safer.

The problem is that people don't want to cut back on convenience. They want range and gas mileage and comfort and a bargain. That is just not going to happen.

[tsali]

*battery exchange station are there to improve the range

*electric cars are probably more reliable than any IC vehicle. they have simpler design and they don't contain dangerous material such as gasoline. Why would you think they are not reliable?

could you elaborate capability?

finally, you can watch this (http://www.ted.com/talks/shai_agassi_on_electric_cars.html) to learn about what Better Place do. It's their CEO talking. He is a well known man, I highly doubt they are a less work/more advertisement company :)

Capability:

The ability to get in my car and drive 400 miles at 70mph on a hot day in complete comfort.

When I can do that in an electric vehicle for the same cost as my Honda Accord, I'll be on board with it.

[tsali]

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Traffic/story?id=485098

says the average commute distance in the states is 16 miles one way. That is a really short distance and perfect for an electric car. When I lived in (northern) California I was baffled about how few people have solar panels on their houses. The sun shines pretty much all day long, day in and day. Why not use it?
My dream would be:
people have solar cells on there roofs and some sort of energy storage in their house, be it batteries or hydrogen. They take their electric car to work which was fueled over night by their home energy storage. While they are at work there's no-one at home, mom and dad working, kids at school. So the solar cell energy can be used to recharge the energy storage. While dad is working his electric car, which has some solar cells in the roof, gets partially recharged during daddy's 8 hour work day. Enough energy to drive home another 16 miles.
That way no extra power lines are needed from the plant to your home. On the weekend you can use your regular diesel car to get you places. EVs are good for commute, they already can go the needed distance and they don't waste energy being stuck in traffic.

In Germany we have way more solar panels than I saw in California and we don't even have much sun shine. If there is a state that should go crazy about solar energy it's California.

And about nuclear energy: no thanks. Despite being dangerous (Three Mile Island, Thernobyl) I don't want to dump nuclear waste in the ground for > 20.000 years and hope nothing of that radioactive **** makes it back to us at the surface. My only hope would be nuclear fusion, which is a lot safer.

The problem is that people don't want to cut back on convenience. They want range and gas mileage and comfort and a bargain. That is just not going to happen.

Few of us make enough money to have these kinds of systems installed in our homes. On top of that, it means I'd have to have Multiple vehicles to make up for the EV's shortcomings. Too expensive.

When you lived in California, did YOU have a system like this? Why not?

[Kraut~salat]

Few of us make enough money to have these kinds of systems installed in our homes. On top of that, it means I'd have to have Multiple vehicles to make up for the EV's shortcomings. Too expensive.

When you lived in California, did YOU have a system like this? Why not?

wait till gas is back at 4$/gallon. Then an electric vehicle is not that expensive anymore. The government subsidises EVs and you can even use the diamond lane.

When I was in CA I was a freakin intern making close to no money. THAT's why I didn't have anything like that. EVERY new technology is expensive in the beginning. So were computers which cost next to nothing nowadays. In the area where I lived a lot of rich people were around. They could afford it. If I had the money I would do it, simply to proof it's feasibility.

[tsali]

wait till gas is back at 4$/gallon. Then an electric vehicle is not that expensive anymore. The government subsidises EVs and you can even use the diamond lane.

When I was in CA I was a freakin intern making close to no money. THAT's why I didn't have anything like that. EVERY new technology is expensive in the beginning. So were computers which cost next to nothing nowadays. In the area where I lived a lot of rich people were around. They could afford it. If I had the money I would do it, simply to proof it's feasibility.

I bought my Accord when gas WAS $4 a gallon - it was a better TCO deal than any EV or hybrid. And it was far more capable.

Lastly...do you know who subsidizes the government?

I'm not saying it cannot be done. I am saying that it's going to take a lot to make it more than a luxury for rich people like Ed Begley Jr.

[cb951303]

Capability:

The ability to get in my car and drive 400 miles at 70mph on a hot day in complete comfort.

When I can do that in an electric vehicle for the same cost as my Honda Accord, I'll be on board with it.

400 miles is a "long distance" range. For everyday use, with the help of battery exchange stations, electric cars are ready enough. As Shai Agassi states in his speak, there is no time to wait for the magic battery technology to appear, lithium-ion is what we got and it's good enough for a range of 100-150 miles. Comparing it to the current range of Tesla cars, my educated guess would be that there is also enough energy to run air conditioning.

[PhoenixMaster00]

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Traffic/story?id=485098

says the average commute distance in the states is 16 miles one way. That is a really short distance and perfect for an electric car. When I lived in (northern) California I was baffled about how few people have solar panels on their houses. The sun shines pretty much all day long, day in and day. Why not use it?
My dream would be:
people have solar cells on there roofs and some sort of energy storage in their house, be it batteries or hydrogen. They take their electric car to work which was fueled over night by their home energy storage. While they are at work there's no-one at home, mom and dad working, kids at school. So the solar cell energy can be used to recharge the energy storage. While dad is working his electric car, which has some solar cells in the roof, gets partially recharged during daddy's 8 hour work day. Enough energy to drive home another 16 miles.
That way no extra power lines are needed from the plant to your home. On the weekend you can use your regular diesel car to get you places. EVs are good for commute, they already can go the needed distance and they don't waste energy being stuck in traffic.

In Germany we have way more solar panels than I saw in California and we don't even have much sun shine. If there is a state that should go crazy about solar energy it's California.

And about nuclear energy: no thanks. Despite being dangerous (Three Mile Island, Thernobyl) I don't want to dump nuclear waste in the ground for > 20.000 years and hope nothing of that radioactive **** makes it back to us at the surface. My only hope would be nuclear fusion, which is a lot safer.

The problem is that people don't want to cut back on convenience. They want range and gas mileage and comfort and a bargain. That is just not going to happen.

On solar panels, has anyone seen what an australian entrepeneur has planned? http://cleantech.com/news/242/australia-building-biggest-solar-power- i beleive this is the one i am talking about. Going to be seriously huge.

And on electric cars, well a company is divising a system were you can stop at theirs stations and simply replace the drained battery with a fully charged one.
To be honest though im hoping high air pressure cars also make an appearance.

[gn2]

Better Place - an all electric car infrastructure solution

Wrong.

A capitalist company trying to persuade (con) consumers by any means necessary into buying their new products.

[tsali]

Wrong.

A capitalist company trying to persuade (con) consumers by any means necessary into buying their new products.

And what's wrong with that?

[gn2]

And what's wrong with that?

Nothing if it's a service people want and they don't lie about the product.

So there's two things wrong ;)

[tsali]

Nothing if it's a service people want and they don't lie about the product.

So there's two things wrong ;)

Whether people want the service or not is irrelevant...they can push it until their funds run out if they want to.

No, they shouldn't lie about their product, but there's nothing wrong with promoting a product you believe in.

I didn't find either of the things you just mentioned in their web site.

Oh, FWIW, socialist endeavor isn't immune to promoting useless products and lying about them...

[HappinessNow]

Whether people want the service or not is irrelevant...they can push it until their funds run out if they want to.

No, they shouldn't lie about their product, but there's nothing wrong with promoting a product you believe in.

I didn't find either of the things you just mentioned in their web site.

Oh, FWIW, socialist endeavor isn't immune to promoting useless products and lying about them...

I am not sure what people are speaking of, when they post about lies from Better Place?

[HappinessNow]

In the US the electric grid is falling apart-and barely has enough capacity for the current needs of the populous...getting enough capacity to power electric cars for the number of cars on the US roads will not happen in my lifetime.

With Better Place battery Exchange Stations who needs electric grids?

[tsali]

With Better Place battery Exchange Stations who needs electric grids?

Uh, those batteries that are removed will be recharged by the grid...

Also, FWIW, a battery exchange system should allow charging to occur at off peak periods. There is currently enough off-peak grid capacity to support charging most (but not all) of the project charging needs of plug-in hybrid vehicles.

Upgrades would be required to support an all electric infrastucture.

[starcannon]

I wonder if Henry Ford had to put up with the FUD when he was rolling out the production line internal combustion vehicle. Suppose he heard stuff like, "I can get oats for my horse in any town I ride to, try getting gasoline just anywhere"; or perhaps, "Horseless carriages are dangerous, and unreliable". Maybe something along the lines of "No one can afford them, and they cause problems with horse traffic anyway". I'd wager there was a bit about roads to, "Where are you going to drive them, theres only a few roads, and those are there for enthusiasts".

I am usually not offended by most FUD, but reading through this thread, I am a bit appalled to say the least. Opinion being spun as fact, from people who are generally seen as tech buffs.

I personally have taken a lot of time to get acquainted to an elementary level on what may be the next big thing for transportation; and the reading I have done suggests the E.V.'s are cleaner (yes even after coal power, batteries, and construction methods are figured in); indeed, I would really like to see E.V.s for my daily batting around the area car, and a nice Hydrogen/Electric Hybrid for my long range vehicle. Hydrogen and Wave Generators just seem like a match made in heaven.

I hope everyone will at least take a little time to go check out the advancements that are happening, not just in EV, but in Bio Fuel, Hydrogen, Solar, Wave, and Wind power; its absolutely amazing; and, as our nano tech continues forward, it's very likely that we have not even scratched the surface of what were capable of.

GL everyone, and I do hope to see more open minds, its a bit of a mystery when considering the nature of our forums, that one would see all the fear of tech I've seen in this thread and others like it concerning alternative fuel cars.

[tsali]

I am not sure what people are speaking of, when they post about lies from Better Place?

FTR, I was not the one who implied that they were and was, in fact, defending their right to promote their idea.

[tsali]

I wonder if Henry Ford had to put up with the FUD when he was rolling out the production line internal combustion vehicle. Suppose he heard stuff like, "I can get oats for my horse in any town I ride to, try getting gasoline just anywhere"; or perhaps, "Horseless carriages are dangerous, and unreliable". Maybe something along the lines of "No one can afford them, and they cause problems with horse traffic anyway". I'd wager there was a bit about roads to, "Where are you going to drive them, theres only a few roads, and those are there for enthusiasts".

I am usually not offended by most FUD, but reading through this thread, I am a bit appalled to say the least. Opinion being spun as fact, from people who are generally seen as tech buffs.

I personally have taken a lot of time to get acquainted to an elementary level on what may be the next big thing for transportation; and the reading I have done suggests the E.V.'s are cleaner (yes even after coal power, batteries, and construction methods are figured in); indeed, I would really like to see E.V.s for my daily batting around the area car, and a nice Hydrogen/Electric Hybrid for my long range vehicle. Hydrogen and Wave Generators just seem like a match made in heaven.

I hope everyone will at least take a little time to go check out the advancements that are happening, not just in EV, but in Bio Fuel, Hydrogen, Solar, Wave, and Wind power; its absolutely amazing; and, as our nano tech continues forward, it's very likely that we have not even scratched the surface of what were capable of.

GL everyone, and I do hope to see more open minds, its a bit of a mystery when considering the nature of our forums, that one would see all the fear of tech I've seen in this thread and others like it concerning alternative fuel cars.

How much do you really know about the history of the automobile?

You do realize that the only reason they overcame all of the obstacles listed is because the large oil companies were funding development of new markets for their products?

The automobile WAS a greasy, dirty and horrendously expensive luxury in its infancy.

In that day, typically the wealthy were the only ones who owned cars. Horses WERE far more reliable.

Stating the truth about the economic realities of current EV technology is not FUD - it's fact. As tech progresses, I expect EV technology to become more and more viable.

EVs have NOT progressed to the point where I'm willing to put my horse to pasture just yet.

Facts:
1) EVs cost more
2) EVs are less capable than gasoline powered equivalents

How is this FUD? I'm sorry, but I have issues with those who refuse to accept candid discussion of reality, instead, choosing to focus on pie-in-sky wish-tech (most of which looks great on paper but fails in practice). Much of this "wish-tech", when scaled up will have hoorendous environment consequences. Wind and tidal systems CHANGE the environment they're installed in - a lot. Solar panels absorb energy that might otherwise warm the earth it would strike. Geothermal can result in seismic instability.

Take off the rose colored glasses and get down to the nitty gritty of solving the problem.

Lastly, I question the research you've reviewed that suggests current EVs are cleaner in the cycle. Many new ULEVs (ultra-low emessions vehicles) leave the environment almost as clean as they found it.

Roughly 80%-85% of the electricity produced in this country (USA) comes from fossil fuels or burning other carbon-based renewables. It doesn't take much of that to be burned in old and outdated utility and industrial plants to take the EV emission factor beyond that of a ULEV.

A better argument might be energy cost. Given the volatility of fossil fuel markets, a pump cost of $4.00US/gal ends up being close to the economic breakpoint for EVs (when considering the cost of battery).

A final cultural comment:

I'm observing that it seems easy for those who live in urban oe academic environments to quickly advocate EVs or other types of relatively less reliable, slow and short range vehicles. I would postulate that the nature of their home environments make these things less of an issue than for someone in a more rural area. Therefore the EV option seems far more attractive.

Where I live, I MUST commute 16 miles to an industrial center. We have no public transit infrastructure (rural). High speed collision is a real possibility. We demand more from our vehicles. Reliability, safety and capability trumps green and fashionable. You won't see those cute little SMART cars in my neck of the woods. Compressed air cars? 40 mile range at 35mph with AC on? That stuff is a joke.

[hobo14]

What happens to the batteries after an electric car has outlived it usefulness?

You recycle them, same as you do with solid batteries now.



Being much lighter weight, compared to gasoline vehicles, how will electric cars be in winter conditions? ... snow, ice etc.

Pretty sure electric cars are generally heavier than a similar sized IC cars.


Electric cars are going to be great, but Better Place just seems weird to me. Why on earth do they think I'd subscribe to them like I do for my mobile phone?
I don't subscribe to petrol stations now, and Better Place doesn't sell anything that I can't get at home (like petrol stations do), or something that I can't get at all without a subscription (like phone companies do).

I already have electricity available at home in my garage, and if for some reason I need to charge up in town I'll use one of their (future) non-subscription competitors.

[cb951303]

I already have electricity available at home in my garage, and if for some reason I need to charge up in town I'll use one of their (future) non-subscription competitors.

If you want to wait 2-3 hours for a recharge that's fine. What better place does is to give you a new battery. It's probably faster than filling the tank and you don't even have to get out of the car, a machine will handle the battery exchange.

[tsali]

You recycle them, same as you do with solid batteries now.




Pretty sure electric cars are generally heavier than a similar sized IC cars.


Electric cars are going to be great, but Better Place just seems weird to me. Why on earth do they think I'd subscribe to them like I do for my mobile phone?
I don't subscribe to petrol stations now, and Better Place doesn't sell anything that I can't get at home (like petrol stations do), or something that I can't get at all without a subscription (like phone companies do).

I already have electricity available at home in my garage, and if for some reason I need to charge up in town I'll use one of their (future) non-subscription competitors.

What makes you think they won't imbed proprietary software in the charging circuit to prevent it from accessing non-subscription sources?

You've seen this movie before...

[cb951303]

Facts:
1) EVs cost more
2) EVs are less capable than gasoline powered equivalents

1) If they are mass produced, no, they actually cost less with the battery exchange plan of Better Place. You simply don't own the battery and you don't pay for it. Think of the battery as the oil well.
2) Only capability problem is the low range and battery exchange stations are here to address this issue.

How about some other facts:
1) Even the most optimistic peak oil estimates says that we have only a few decades of usable/affordable oil left. http://www.amazon.com/Out-Gas-End-Age-Oil/dp/0393058573
Note that, these estimations include the world growth and future increase of oil need.
2) We're killing the planet by using fossil fuel.


Much of this "wish-tech", when scaled up will have hoorendous environment consequences. Wind and tidal systems CHANGE the environment they're installed in - a lot. Solar panels absorb energy that might otherwise warm the earth it would strike. Geothermal can result in seismic instability.

That's what I call speculation. I'm not saying you're wrong but you don't have any sources either. I couldn't find any researches on these subjects.

[tsali]

1) If they are mass produced, no, they actually cost less with the battery exchange plan of Better Place. You simply don't own the battery and you don't pay for it. Think of the battery as the oil well.
2) Only capability problem is the low range and battery exchange stations are here to address this issue.

How about some other facts:
1) Even the most optimistic peak oil estimates says that we have only a few decades of usable/affordable oil left. http://www.amazon.com/Out-Gas-End-Age-Oil/dp/0393058573
Note that, these estimations include the world growth and future increase of oil need.
2) We're killing the planet by using fossil fuel.



That's what I call speculation. I'm not saying you're wrong but you don't have any sources either. I couldn't find any researches on these subjects.

You didn't do much research. There are tons of links to the environmental impact of solar, wind, geothermal and tidal technologies from a simple google query. I won't repost them here.

There were many credible reports in the 1970s that indicated we should have already run out of oil. I lived through them and remember the treehuggers on TV shouting about how the earth would be dead by the year 2000. Forgive me if I'm skeptical.

Lastly, if you'd post links that affordable and practical electric car and a map to the battery replacement stations, I'd be more than happy to go buy one today. Unlike the environmental impact statements noted above, I seem to have trouble finding those links.

[cb951303]

You didn't do much research. There are tons of links to the environmental impact of solar, wind, geothermal and tidal technologies from a simple google query. I won't repost them here.

Please post them. Note that I'm not looking for internet articles. Give me research material.



... I lived through them and remember the treehuggers on TV shouting about how the earth would be dead by the year 2000. Forgive me if I'm skeptical.

You should have researched better. TV is not a reliable source. There is hard, scientific proof that CO2 emissions will kill the planet. Believe it or not it will happen.



Lastly, if you'd post links that affordable and practical electric car and a map to the battery replacement stations, I'd be more than happy to go buy one today. Unlike the environmental impact statements noted above, I seem to have trouble finding those links.
Who said, we have it now? Better Place tries to build an infrastructure. They don't try to change the whole transportation industry in one night.
That's how "development" works.

[LowSky]

Co2 will not kill the planet. Plenty of Scientific evidence has proven that the earth has gone through many different atmospheric changes during its life sustaining period. Life will go on until the Earth's core goes cold or the Sun burns out, which ever occurs first.

People should be looking toward building a better mass transit system than a electric car. People like me who commute to work would gladly switch if it was cheaper and actually possible to easily have someone else get me to my job.

[Swagman]

Co2 will not kill the planet. Plenty of Scientific evidence has proven that the earth has gone through many different atmospheric changes during its life sustaning period.

People should be looking toward building a better mass transit system than a electric car. People like me who commute to work would gladly switch if it was cheaper and actually possible to easily have someone else get me to my job.

C0² = Plant food.

I still want better tech than Internal Combustion no matter what it turns out to be.

[tsali]

Please post them. Note that I'm not looking for internet articles. Give me research material.


You should have researched better. TV is not a reliable source. There is hard, scientific proof that CO2 emissions will kill the planet. Believe it or not it will happen.


Who said, we have it now? Better Place tries to build an infrastructure. They don't try to change the whole transportation industry in one night.
That's how "development" works.

Oh, I see...you want grad level research right quick...

Never mind. I have to take my atomic flying car to the shop for flux map today anyhow...

[cb951303]

Fine, I'm not going to argue with people ignoring global warming.

[tsali]

C0² = Plant food.

I still want better tech than Internal Combustion no matter what it turns out to be.

In my opinion, that better tech is HERE (http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/)

[tsali]

Fine, I'm not going to argue with people ignoring global warming.

No sense arguing with folks who jump conclusions either. Where did you get that I was ignoring global warming? I just don't agree that EVs are solution to that problem.

Are you one of those all or nothing people? Do I have to buy the whole program or none of it?

[Swagman]

In my opinion, that better tech is HERE (http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/)

Sounds good but it's still reciprocating piston

A major step in the right direction though

[cb951303]

No sense arguing with folks who jump conclusions either. Where did you get that I was ignoring global warming? I just don't agree that EVs are solution to that problem.

Are you one of those all or nothing people? Do I have to buy the whole program or none of it?

I was talking to LawSky and Swagman, if you actually check the post timings you would see that yourself.

[Swagman]

?

So your saying that C0² is NOT plant food then ?

Here's an interesting thread (http://forums.atomicmpc.com.au/index.php?showtopic=18495)

[cb951303]

?

So your saying that C0² is NOT plant food then ?

Here's an interesting thread (http://forums.atomicmpc.com.au/index.php?showtopic=18495)

:) No I'm not saying that. It seemed like you agreed with LowSky when he said that CO2 emissions will not kill the planet.
And, really? a forum thread? pardon me if I keep believing what I read from credited researchers and writers instead of a forum article.

[LowSky]

CO2 will not kill the planet, sure too much CO2 will kill animals but not because of heat, the earth getting warmer is nothing new. When the Big Dinos ruled this planet the earth was much hotter than its current temps. Lets not forget that.

there is actually a opposite theory that states that the Earth is just returning to pre-ice age temps and that this increase is spiking because of increasing momentum, that possibly was effected by human intervention. Saying the Earth will have higher oceans is a problem, is only a human population problem. many places on the earth have long histories of being under water, including many of the coastal areas of Europe and America. A great example is the Mississippi River which floods the plains surrounding it every year. People think they can control nature, when in reality we hold a small grasp on it.

[hobo14]

What makes you think they won't imbed proprietary software in the charging circuit to prevent it from accessing non-subscription sources?

You've seen this movie before...

The same reason Toyota doesn't have the only key to the petrol tank of my current car: no-one would buy it.

[gn2]

The same reason Toyota doesn't have the only key to the petrol tank of my current car: no-one would buy it.

But if your Toyota had a detachable battery, would another battery fit?

In order for this battery replacement idea to work, all batteries fitted to all cars will have to be a standard fitment.
If anyone seriously expects all vehicle manufacturers to agree to build all their vehicles to accept a single common standard interchangeable battery then I'm afraid they're living on cloud cuckooland.

[Kraut~salat]

CO2 will not kill the planet, sure too much CO2 will kill animals but not because of heat, the earth getting warmer is nothing new. When the Big Dinos ruled this planet the earth was much hotter than its current temps. Lets not forget that.


Yes, earth went thru a couple of temp changes over the years. But we are talking billions of years. The dinos lived ~100 million years ago. It is normal that temp has changed since then. But let us not forget that it was humanity that started burning fossil fuels just 150 years ago. Ever since then CO2 concentration increased at unprecidented rates. Before that the CO2 cycle was in balance. It took earth billions of years to absorb that much CO2 and store it in form of coal and oil. No-one can tell me that it will not have a devastating effect if that amount of CO2 is released in just a couple 100 of years.

One thing is for sure: nature will find its way, it always has. But will humanity? Wars have been fought for oil, soon they will be fought for food, water and land.

http://www.switchingpowermagazine.com/downloads/Future%20of%20the%20Electric%20Car.pdf
This is a link to a presentation a PhD of electrical engineering held. According to him hydrogen cars aren't really helpful because making the hydrogen is inefficient.

[HappinessNow]

But if your Toyota had a detachable battery, would another battery fit?

In order for this battery replacement idea to work, all batteries fitted to all cars will have to be a standard fitment.
If anyone seriously expects all vehicle manufacturers to agree to build all their vehicles to accept a single common standard interchangeable battery then I'm afraid they're living on cloud cuckooland.

This objection was overcome in the videos, just as there is not one kind of gasoline, or one kind of tire there will be multiple types of batteries at the battery changing stations. Simply solution.

[Kraut~salat]

If anyone seriously expects all vehicle manufacturers to agree to build all their vehicles to accept a single common standard interchangeable battery then I'm afraid they're living on cloud cuckooland.

Bullsh*t. The California Fuel Cell partnership exists for exactly that reason. Manufacturers agree an standard refueling systems and nozzle shapes/sizes, pressures, voltages etc.

Companies always have agreed on standards. The very computer you are reading this message on right now has standarized USB/VGA/PS2/IDE/SATA connectors, voltage levels, timing requirements, you name it. Having standard interfaces doesn't mean you lose money, it means you open up your product to new markets. There have always been standards and there will be with elctric cars as there are with gas/diesel cars (like octanes and purity).

[gn2]

Cars already have batteries in them, are they standard?

Car companies never have standard components on their own range never mind across the ranges of other manufacturers.

The car industry just doesn't do co-operation, never has, never will.

[Kraut~salat]

Cars already have batteries in them, are they standard?


Yes, they have a standard voltage and a standard terminal size.

[gn2]

Yes, they have a standard voltage and a standard terminal size.

Physical size? Capacity? Ever tried fitting a Landrover battery in a Nissan Micra?

Unless there is a standard battery type, when you get to the battery exchange station you might find that no compatible batteries are available and you'll have a long wait while your battery is charged.

The idea of battery exchange stations sounds good on paper but it depends on resolving a number of extremely difficult problems.

If there is to be a standard fitment battery, what will happen to battery development?
Where will the incentive be to improve the batteries?

[Kraut~salat]

If your car is bigger than others why not simply load two batteries of standard size?

And about the incentive of improving batteries: we are talking about a standard in size and voltage. Everything else is up to the companies. What technology they use and what chemicals. There's tons of room for individual development.

[gn2]

Everything else is up to the companies. What technology they use and what chemicals. There's tons of room for individual development.

So how does one company get back their development costs if they are providing a better battery than the competition?

What happens when a user with a high spec super-whizzo battery from company X turns up at the exchange station and all that's available are company Y and Z's low spec carp-o-matic duff batteries?

[HappinessNow]

So how does one company get back their development costs if they are providing a better battery than the competition?

What happens when a user with a high spec super-whizzo battery from company X turns up at the exchange station and all that's available are company Y and Z's low spec carp-o-matic duff batteries?

gn2 you are making a mountain out of a mole hill (I mean this is as a friendly gesture O:))

There simply is not that many car manufactures, perhaps a dozen at best

The battery exchange places would simply carry a dozen or so different batteries.

Very simple solution, again I would highly suggest you do a bit more research or at least watch the Better Place videos. Your objection is simply a myth that has already been overcome.

Playing devil's advocate is fun but at least be informed so the argument has some substance.

I do want to Thank You! for your counter arguments; they do make this thread much more enjoyable and interesting.

As one person posted, we do not have a finite supply of fossil fuels and one day they will be depleted. A Better Place is an evolution for mankind by default.

If you live in the USA, the building of a Better Place type infrastructure has been mandated by our new President and one that cities, counties and states are racing to meet. This new administration isn't talking about some kind of esoteric concept it is an infrastructure that is fully funded and being put into place as we speak about it in this forum.

Israel is the first country in the world that has made a commitment to building a Country-wide electric car infrastructure. Where Israel innovates the rest of the world imitates. Denmark, Australia, Japan, Canada and the USA are following their lead.

Better Place in Denmark:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/denmark/

Better Place in Israel:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/israel/

Better Place in Australia:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/australia//

Better Place in Japan:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/japan/

Better Place in Canada:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/canada/

Better Place in United States of America:
http://www.betterplace.com/global-pr...united-states/ (http://www.betterplace.com/global-progress/united-states/)

Many people fear change, and argue against new innovations yet beyond the nah sayers the infrastructure is currently being planned and/or being built in many countries around the world (see the list above).

[gn2]

If you live in the USA, the building of a Better Place type infrastructure has been mandated by our new President

Thankfully I don't the next president could very well abandon the project if there was enough votes in it.

What really needs to happen is for people to stop travelling needlessly.
Electrical vehicles will definitely happen, but I doubt the battery exchange idea will ever work.
Time will tell.

[Whiffle]

I think the battery exchange idea is pretty much the only way electric cars will work, otherwise they just take too long to charge. The hard part will be standardizing the battery pack, and ensuring that all vehicles are designed in such a way that there is an easy standard way of loading/unloading the battery. This could be difficult when you consider the variations in shapes between say, an econo box and a pickup.

Other than that, my concerns are:
-battery chemicals are nasty, and batteries do wear out eventually. That will have to be dealt with, especially considering the scale being considered.

-There is a tendency that as cost of a resource goes down, usage goes up. This also applies with efficiency, in that because it consumes less resources to do something, people will do more of it. Thats where we get results like this: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2009/07/68494710/1
SO in the end, even with electric cars, we won't reap much benefit because people will just drive more because they can.

-I don't think our electrical grid is up to the task of providing the energy required to charge everyone's car for their daily commute. We'd need more power plants (which is a whole issue by itself), and would have to upgrade the distribution system at every point between the plant and the user.


At any rate, I don't see electric cars taking over anytime soon. And we're not going to run out of oil (it will just eventually get so expensive to get out of the ground that it will no longer be an economic way to power vehicles)

[Kraut~salat]

I think the battery exchange idea is pretty much the only way electric cars will work, otherwise they just take too long to charge.

There was an article in "Nature", issue 458, pg 190 about a new Li-Ion battery developed at MIT. They can charge a cell phone battery in 10 sec and a hybrid car battery in 5 minutes. Consider how many hours went into researching combustion engine technology since the car was invented. Now imagine what battery technology would look like today if the same effort had been made on battery technology. They will become a lot better, all that was missing was the incentive to conduct research on a large scale. Until now.

[MasterNetra]

How do electric cars provide heat?

Being much lighter weight, compared to gasoline vehicles, how will electric cars be in winter conditions? ... snow, ice etc.

Put a bunch of AMD cpu's in it. That should provide heat.

[gn2]

Put a bunch of AMD cpu's in it. That should provide heat.

Or start making Pentium 4 CPUs again.

[tsali]

Sounds good but it's still reciprocating piston

A major step in the right direction though

Huh? The FCX Clarity does NOT have an internal combustion engine with pistons at all.

Where did you get that?

[Swagman]

Huh? The FCX Clarity does NOT have an internal combustion engine with pistons at all.

Where did you get that?

Apologies. I didn't read into it and wrongly assumed it was a converted piston engine.

Bit silly of me really considering I posted a link in this thread to the same tech.

[edit]
Dug back and found that link....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8154721.stm

[Whiffle]

Now imagine what battery technology would look like today if the same effort had been made on battery technology. They will become a lot better, all that was missing was the incentive to conduct research on a large scale. Until now.

I don't see how there wasn't incentive or effort to build better batteries before?

The advantage of having a method of high energy density electrical power storage has been around for as long as electricity has been around. Considering all of the devices that run on batteries of some sort, and the constant drive for better battery life, longer run times, and higher power outputs, I don't think adding cars to the list is going to change much. Not to mention how incredibly useful a better battery would be for making wind and solar power more useful. I don't think there is any lack of incentive, nor really even a lack in battery development. Just look at how much batteries have changed in the last 10 years. We've gone from NiCads to LiIon and LiPo batteries, which are really an enormous improvement.

I think what we face here is that battery technology is just not easy.
It takes a lot of resources, sophisticated technology, and careful research to build a good battery, and even then you occasionally get batteries that blow up.

[HappinessNow]

I don't see how there wasn't incentive or effort to build better batteries before?

The advantage of having a method of high energy density electrical power storage has been around for as long as electricity has been around. Considering all of the devices that run on batteries of some sort, and the constant drive for better battery life, longer run times, and higher power outputs, I don't think adding cars to the list is going to change much. Not to mention how incredibly useful a better battery would be for making wind and solar power more useful. I don't think there is any lack of incentive, nor really even a lack in battery development. Just look at how much batteries have changed in the last 10 years. We've gone from NiCads to LiIon and LiPo batteries, which are really an enormous improvement.

I think what we face here is that battery technology is just not easy.
It takes a lot of resources, sophisticated technology, and careful research to build a good battery, and even then you occasionally get batteries that blow up.

Battery Technology Research and Development is in a constant continual boom, mostly driven by the need for better batteries for laptops/netbooks, now being supercharged by the need for better batteries for electric cars.

[nubimax]

I think there is a better idea out there today right now they are building air power cars in India the cars get 200 miles to a tank of air by 2012 the company is hoping to up that to 400 miles per tank of air.
M

[HappinessNow]

I think there is a better idea out there today right now they are building air power cars in India the cars get 200 miles to a tank of air by 2012 the company is hoping to up that to 400 miles per tank of air.
M


Drivers also will be able to plug into the electrical grid and use the car’s built-in compressor to refill the tanks in about 4 hours.

Of course, the Air Car will likely never hit American shores, especially considering its all-glue construction.http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html

The air car still requires electricity, the all-glue construction of the India air cars is questionable. All efforts are applauded.

[gn2]

~ the all-glue construction of the India air cars is questionable. ~

Why? Carbon fibre is effectively cloth bound together with glue and that's strong enough for an F1 car monocoque.

[tsali]

Why? Carbon fibre is effectively cloth bound together with glue and that's strong enough for an F1 car monocoque.

F1 cars would fall apart on city streets. That said, overcoming composite and adhesive issues is just technical.

The problem with air cars and EVs is that they just convert and store energy produced elsewhere. Somewhere, a power plant is belching carbon to recharge the EV or run a compressor.

[gn2]

F1 cars would fall apart on city streets.

Monaco?
Valencia?
Singapore?

[Swagman]

Monaco?
Valencia?
Singapore?

Indeed.

I get the distinct impression that there are not many F1 watchers on this forum.

My idea about KERS for example.

To those that are unaware.. KERS .. Kinetic Energy Recovery System charges up capacitors whilst the vehicle is slowing/braking to give a whopping 80bhp boost

[cb951303]

Why? Carbon fibre is effectively cloth bound together with glue and that's strong enough for an F1 car monocoque.

+1

There are mass-produced fiberglass vehicles (Which is not the best idea). Carbon fibre is even tougher/lighter than that. If those Indian cars are made of carbon fibre, I wouldn't worry about any structural failure.

[gn2]

KERS .. Kinetic Energy Recovery System charges up capacitors whilst the vehicle is slowing/braking

Some trains have a similar system.