Can you beliave what he said?

[running_rabbit07]

So, my Linux story started with being all motivated about installing Debian. I used Norton Partition Magic and made the Linux Swap and EXT3 Partitions. I was happy! I paid a few good dollars to have the Debian distro DVD set overnighted so I could start learning more.

I installed Debian twice before I gave up because I couldn't get NVIDIA drivers to work. I made a post in their forum and emailed a Debian maintainer because everything else I could find didn't work. I waited a few days, no reply via the email nor the forum. Here I am two months later and I finall get a reply saying that I can't make changes to root because I am not root. He didn't tell me anything for actually fixing the problem so here is how I replied to him yesterday and his reply today,

"I said, "It might have helped to tell me how to sign in as root being that I had just installed Debian at that time and had no clue. I did end up figuring that out and tried many more different things I had found in forums and nothing worked for the nvidia settins problem. So after a couple of days with no replies in the forum, I gave up on Debian, which I am still not happy about being I spent money having the DVD set overnighted. Now I get a response two months later. I am glad that I moved on to Ubuntu being people in their forums are much more willing to help newcomers. One day when Debian distro 8 or 9 comes out with a nvidia friendly install, I will go for it."

He/She said, "Well Debian isn't designed for impatient people I guess.

Of course this list is the mailing list for the maintainers of the
package, not generic debian user help (I think debian-users is a list
more like that). I know I certainly don't read this list daily, nor
does anyone else for that matter.

Well enjoy ubuntu. It's not bad, except when upgrades go horribly
wrong, which they often seem to do unfortunately. Fixed release dates
unfortunately always cause lower quality software, which the ubuntu guys
will hopefully one day understand. Nice goal to have, but not realistic.

Not sure why you ever wanted to use DVDs to install when a net install
is the standard way to install debian and takes much less time and effort."

I was nice enough to leave his name off the email. I don't think it was good PR for him/her to be dissing a fellow distro.

[NightwishFan]

Well, most respectable community members would not act like that, so perhaps just ask for help in a bit more common places.

[RiceMonster]

Of course this list is the mailing list for the maintainers of the package, not generic debian user help (I think debian-users is a list more like that).

Maybe you should read this part again. Sounds like you're lucky you got help at all from that mailing list.

[JDShu]

Well, saying that you're glad you moved on to ubuntu probably touched a nerve. Honestly, for practical purposes, I don't think we should **** them off. Debian is what makes Ubuntu run after all. The reply is actually very civil in my opinion.

[running_rabbit07]

Maybe you should read this part again. Sounds like you're lucky you got help at all from that mailing list.

I read it a few times, the thing that bothered me was that he didn't bother to say in his first reply that I had the wrong emial list and he didn't say go here or there for a way to fix your problem.

I know that not everybody is as nice as some of the people in Ubuntu forums with giving advice but he could have thrown in a link or two to help me.

[Sealbhach]

I was nice enough to leave his name off the email. I don't think it was good PR for him/her to be dissing a fellow distro.

It's not a fellow distro, Debian is the daddy of Ubuntu.

.

[lykwydchykyn]

Put yourself in his shoes before you pass judgement.

He's maintaining a package for Debian, for which he receives --????? who knows? Probably nothing. He gets an email from some complete newbie who doesn't understand the basics about root permissions. He doesn't answer for 2 months. Why? Maybe he's got personal troubles, maybe he's got an inbox stacked up to jupiter, maybe he's been on vacation or on sick leave. Give people the benefit of the doubt.

In any case, when he finally does make an effort to respond (which he could easily NOT HAVE DONE AT ALL), he gets back a tirade on his "customer service" and the information that you've moved on to a distro which many in the Debian community regard as a parasitic usurper.

Not everyone who contributes to Linux is on a mission to convert the world to their distro. And not everyone appreciates the "you're not treating my like a valuable asset so I'm moving on / back to $OTHER_DISTRO / $OTHER_OS" treatment.

[running_rabbit07]

It's not a fellow distro, Debian is the daddy of Ubuntu.

.

I think that is a common sense thing being I read all of the documentation before installing Ubuntu.

[Swarms]

It's not a fellow distro, Debian is the daddy of Ubuntu.

.

More turning into a stepfather for each days that goes.

[running_rabbit07]

Put yourself in his shoes before you pass judgement.

He's maintaining a package for Debian, for which he receives --????? who knows? Probably nothing. He gets an email from some complete newbie who doesn't understand the basics about root permissions. He doesn't answer for 2 months. Why? Maybe he's got personal troubles, maybe he's got an inbox stacked up to jupiter, maybe he's been on vacation or on sick leave. Give people the benefit of the doubt.

In any case, when he finally does make an effort to respond (which he could easily NOT HAVE DONE AT ALL), he gets back a tirade on his "customer service" and the information that you've moved on to a distro which many in the Debian community regard as a parasitic usurper.

Not everyone who contributes to Linux is on a mission to convert the world to their distro. And not everyone appreciates the "you're not treating my like a valuable asset so I'm moving on / back to $OTHER_DISTRO / $OTHER_OS" treatment.

So, I was supposed to sit there with 800 by 600 resolution to wait 2 months, just for him to look past the NVIDIA problem and tell me "only root can make changes, not regular users?" Last time I checked the Debian forum that I posted a question about fixing the driver, nobody had responded. I wasn't asking for an immediate help but if the guy is a maintainer he could have easily forwarded my request to someone who could help. I know that I personally in his shoes would have gotten help for someone who was asking it.

[Swagman]

Actually it's the Mother of deb distro's

[Simian Man]

More turning into a stepfather for each days that goes.

Not really, no. Many Debian developers are understandably peeved that Ubuntu gets so much credit for their hard work. This guy should really have directed you to the proper help channels though.

[lykwydchykyn]

So, I was supposed to sit there with 800 by 600 resolution to wait 2 months, just for him to look past the NVIDIA problem and tell me "only root can make changes, not regular users?" Last time I checked the Debian forum that I posted a question about fixing the driver, nobody had responded. I wasn't asking for an immediate help but if the guy is a maintainer he could have easily forwarded my request to someone who could help. I know that I personally in his shoes would have gotten help for someone who was asking it.

You can keep finding reasons to be angry if you want to, I guess. Or you can cut this guy some slack, and extend a little "ubuntu" to the people who are putting together this fine software for you (and seeing as he's the debian maintainer, chances are you're still using his work even though your on Ubuntu now). Ask yourself this: if he really didn't care, why did he bother responding at all? He could have just deleted your email and gone on with life.

Before you hit "reply" and tell me how I'm wrong and he's really a jerk, take a few minutes to think about what I'm saying. You'll be a happier person for it.

[running_rabbit07]

You can keep finding reasons to be angry if you want to, I guess. Or you can cut this guy some slack, and extend a little "ubuntu" to the people who are putting together this fine software for you (and seeing as he's the debian maintainer, chances are you're still using his work even though your on Ubuntu now). Ask yourself this: if he really didn't care, why did he bother responding at all? He could have just deleted your email and gone on with life.

Before you hit "reply" and tell me how I'm wrong and he's really a jerk, take a few minutes to think about what I'm saying. You'll be a happier person for it.

I am not really mad, but I do feel that he could have just forwarded me to someone that does the "help desk" thing.

I just finished taking A+ and one of the important things they preach is to help the customer understand the problem. That way there is no intimidation and then the customer is more likely to come back. In this case I'm not buying a product

I did respond to the guy's email thanking him for responding and yes I told him that with anybody, 2 months is a long time to be patient when you can't even see your screen to do online classes. I also responded with telling him that I use Ubuntu 8.04 LTS just because it is more supported in the sense that it has been around for a longer amount of time and repositories have had more time to grow.

[running_rabbit07]

Not really, no. Many Debian developers are understandably peeved that Ubuntu gets so much credit for their hard work. This guy should really have directed you to the proper help channels though.
That would have been all it would take to make me happy.

[doas777]

it sounds like this entire issue is you weren't using sudo when installing the drivers. is that correct?

[ELD]

This is why you don't ask a developer list for user help.

While i can sympathise i used to get a lot of one liner, non helpfull responses from mandrake (now mandriva) i joined ubuntu and have been helped A LOT by users across this forum.

Just a pity the latest ubuntu/kubuntu locks up on me from time to time, bring on karmic heh!

[running_rabbit07]

it sounds like this entire issue is you weren't using sudo when installing the drivers. is that correct?

That was one of the main issues, I was new and had no clue that when I set up an account I had to search around and figure out that I had to give myself permission to upgrade my own system. Of coarse I know that now but hindsight is always 20/20.

He could have very easily forwarded me to a site explaining sudo instead just saying, "you have to have root to make changes."

[betrunkenaffe]

I can't fault that guy at all. My response as a dev to a question posed in a place it shouldn't be would be.

Wrong place, go here.

The 2 months would be inconsequential because it's your own fault for posting questions in the wrong location, you get the reply when you get it, if you even do.

You were snippy with him, his response is entirely a product of that. I give him credit for keeping it civil. Were that a response I had received, it would have been followed up with "Enjoy".

[running_rabbit07]

This is why you don't ask a developer list for user help.

While i can sympathise i used to get a lot of one liner, non helpfull responses from mandrake (now mandriva) i joined ubuntu and have been helped A LOT by users across this forum.

Just a pity the latest ubuntu/kubuntu locks up on me from time to time, bring on karmic heh!

That is one of the reasons I love Ubuntu, people are willing to help.

[ELD]

That is one of the reasons I love Ubuntu, people are willing to help.

Glad you do love your Ubuntu :D. I still do try other distros to see how well they are doing but Ubuntu just makes things so easy for me!

Installing graphics, codecs, and my wireless on Ubuntu (not KDE) runs perfectly, can't complain!

[running_rabbit07]

I can't fault that guy at all. My response as a dev to a question posed in a place it shouldn't be would be.

Wrong place, go here.

The 2 months would be inconsequential because it's your own fault for posting questions in the wrong location, you get the reply when you get it, if you even do.

You were snippy with him, his response is entirely a product of that. I give him credit for keeping it civil. Were that a response I had received, it would have been followed up with "Enjoy".

Ahh, the American philosophy that never quits, "not my job, not my problem."

[running_rabbit07]

Glad you do love your Ubuntu :D. I still do try other distros to see how well they are doing but Ubuntu just makes things so easy for me!

Installing graphics, codecs, and my wireless on Ubuntu (not KDE) runs perfectly, can't complain!

Yeah, I plan on trying Debian again one day after I get used to installing and updating everything via CLI. The Ubuntus automatically offer nvidia drivers, which makes it much easier. Just load and restart.

[TravisNewman]

Try asking for help on an Ubuntu developer IRC channel or mailing list, and you'll get less civil replies than that at times. You take on personal responsibility when you install Linux. There is no help desk, there is no customer. It's all community driven. Debian's forums are pretty dead, but their user mailing list and user IRC channel are not unlike the Ubuntu forums, though not as friendly.

Long and short of it, he's a busy guy. He probably didn't see either of your emails for a long time, since he doesn't do support. The first reply was an attempt to help you, by saying you couldn't do what you wanted to without having root permissions, thinking this would help you to find the info you were looking for (online documentation and google are your friends when installing Linux for the first time).

Granted, Ubuntu does have more in the way of user-driven help for new users than any other distro that I've seen so far, which is one of the reasons I love it.

[issih]

This is a bit like asking someone at nasa how to find the area of a circle.

Understandably, they can't really be bothered. He wasn't rude, nor was he helpful, but frankly you can get a lot worse treatment, from the grandees of any distro. There are plenty of ****s around here that will jump down someones throat if they feel like it. Ubuntu is no better, it all just depends who you get.

Generally, ask where it makes sense, and don't take it personally if you can. In this case you asked where it doesn't and are taking it personally.

It certainly isn't indicitive of anything other than that one person, not a whole distro

anyway enjoy ubuntu :)

[Swarms]

Not really, no. Many Debian developers are understandably peeved that Ubuntu gets so much credit for their hard work. This guy should really have directed you to the proper help channels though.

Yeah really...

[Simian Man]

Yeah really...

Well they resync to Debian testing every six months and don't really develop anything new, so perhaps you can explain how you mean.

[running_rabbit07]

This is a bit like asking someone at nasa how to find the area of a circle.

Understandably, they can't really be bothered. He wasn't rude, nor was he helpful, but frankly you can get a lot worse treatment, from the grandees of any distro. There are plenty of ****s around here that will jump down someones throat if they feel like it. Ubuntu is no better, it all just depends who you get.

Generally, ask where it makes sense, and don't take it personally if you can. In this case you asked where it doesn't and are taking it personally.

It certainly isn't indicitive of anything other than that one person, not a whole distro

anyway enjoy ubuntu :)

I have seen the jumping down throats thing here, but after all, unless I see the happy ubuntu icons under a user's screen name I don't expect much professionalism. I know that when I try to help others in the forums with what I know, I try to be nice just because I don't like it when I see potential Linux users fall off the charts. It is a hard transition from Windows where people are used to clicking exe files and moving on to the next mission, for some it is hard to be smarter than the machine.

[Sealbhach]

. I know that when I try to help others in the forums with what I know, I try to be nice just because I don't like it when I see potential Linux users fall off the charts. It is a hard transition from Windows where people are used to clicking exe files and moving on to the next mission, for some it is hard to be smarter than the machine.

That's a good attitude to have and that's what makes the Ubuntu Forums special - most other distro forums require you to have a certain level of knowledge, we try to encourage everyone.

What made you try Debian first, rather than Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS or Fedora or one of the other easier distros?

.

[betrunkenaffe]

Ahh, the American philosophy that never quits, "not my job, not my problem."

First, I'm not American and secondly, you obviously aren't ever going to understand what you are being told. It's not a "not my job, not my problem", it's a "you screwed up, suck it up, learn and move on".

As far as I'm concerned, you were belligerent to someone who was trying to be helpful and they got slapped for it. I would like to personally thank you for making that person that little bit less willing to assist anyone in the future.

I'm definitely unsubscribing from this thread because I have absolutely no tolerance for the arrogance of the "I deserve everything" mentality.

[running_rabbit07]

That's a good attitude to have and that's what makes the Ubuntu Forums special - most other distro forums require you to have a certain level of knowledge, we try to encourage everyone.

What made you try Debian first, rather than Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS or Fedora or one of the other easier distros?

I was doing a search for Linux, I forget what site, and Debian came up as the most powerful system as it can run servers whether printing, email, or files in general. I still have respect for it's capabilities but I just couldn't get past the nvidia driver issue that I now think I could handle with no problems., but I just reinstalled Ubuntu from 9.04 to 8.04 so I could have longevity and focus more on school.

I am going for my CCNA, so it will pay off if I know how to work with Linux's powerful servers. Three out of four of my classmates last semester had Linux, though I never thought to ask which distros.

[running_rabbit07]

First, I'm not American and secondly, you obviously aren't ever going to understand what you are being told. It's not a "not my job, not my problem", it's a "you screwed up, suck it up, learn and move on".

As far as I'm concerned, you were belligerent to someone who was trying to be helpful and they got slapped for it. I would like to personally thank you for making that person that little bit less willing to assist anyone in the future.

I'm definitely unsubscribing from this thread because I have absolutely no tolerance for the arrogance of the "I deserve everything" mentality.

Wow, I never said I deserve anything, I believe in helping people without expecting in return. When someone comes to me with a problem I don't blow them off if I can't help them, I direct them to someone who can.

I screwed up? How? I asked for help with NVIDIA and he told me I didn't have root, so I can't fix my computer.

[hjacker]

Storm in a teacup.
It's absolutely personal whether you are friendly or not. Even if you are working in some kind of support service. And you with your aftermath emails about how much you like Ubuntu, how friendly everybody here is, how much debian support sucks etc. look like 14 yrs old l33t ki11a. Don't expect everybody to be nice. Not gonna happen. Sorry.
No offence.^_^

[RiceMonster]

I just finished taking A+ and one of the important things they preach is to help the customer understand the problem.

But you are not a customer. You are a user. Furthermore, s/he is not here to help and service people, only maintain the software at hand. S/He has no obligation to help you. I understand that you're happier with Ubuntu's community support, which is just fine, but as lykwydchykyn has said, you have to cut him/her some slack.


it sounds like this entire issue is you weren't using sudo when installing the drivers. is that correct?

IIRC debian doesn't use sudo by default, so he'd have to do one of these:

su
command

su -c 'command'

[Swarms]

Well they resync to Debian testing every six months and don't really develop anything new, so perhaps you can explain how you mean.

The new notification system and AppCenter.

[ubuntu27]

Well they resync to Debian testing every six months and don't really develop anything new, so perhaps you can explain how you mean.

Ubuntu or Canonical made application or functions that are visible:

Add/Remove
Computer Janitor
UFW - Uncomplicated Firewall
Notify-OSD -- New Notification System for Ubuntu
AppCentre - http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-AppCenter-112572.shtml

[chris4585]

What you don't seem to understand is that the developer gave you enough information for you to search for yourself.

[running_rabbit07]

Ubuntu or Canonical made application or functions that are visible:

Add/Remove
Computer Janitor
UFW - Uncomplicated Firewall
Notify-OSD -- New Notification System for Ubuntu
AppCentre - http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-AppCenter-112572.shtml

Not to mention that from what I have been reading, Debian's updates have to be done via CLI. I like the Ubuntu Update Manager.

[swoll1980]

The bottom line would be, if your not going to give a helpful response, then don't respond at all. To all those that think because he's a Debian developer, that he is some how excused from being a respectful human being. I would just laugh, and wonder why you would think that.

[lykwydchykyn]

The bottom line would be, if your not going to give a helpful response, then don't respond at all. To all those that think because he's a Debian developer, that he is some how excused from being a respectful human being. I would just laugh, and wonder why you would think that.

I don't think anyone is saying that; at least I'm not. The whole point of this thread seems to be giving a one-sided criticism of someone who isn't here to defend himself. Whether he's a debian developer or a convicted criminal, is that really fair?

[swoll1980]

I don't think anyone is saying that; at least I'm not. The whole point of this thread seems to be giving a one-sided criticism of someone who isn't here to defend himself. Whether he's a debian developer or a convicted criminal, is that really fair?

Convict who? The person is nameless, and faceless. It's not like he was starting a smear campaign. Assuming the ops story is true, then what I said sums it up pretty well. If he's embellishing, then oh well no harm, no foul.

[running_rabbit07]

I don't think anyone is saying that; at least I'm not. The whole point of this thread seems to be giving a one-sided criticism of someone who isn't here to defend himself. Whether he's a debian developer or a convicted criminal, is that really fair?

People that have a job should take the utmost pride in doing it the best they can even if it is not their job. At one time I was a delivery driver, it was not my job to get out and help stranded cars broke down in the middle of 8 lane highways, but I did, to help everyone that was stuck waiting to get by and to insure the safety of the people in the broke down cars. As Americans and as people of the world we can help each other or make excuses not to. Nothing like pushing someone elses car out of the road and having a tow truck drive by with the driver screaming out of the window to get that peice of @#$% out of the road.

Question is do we help ourselves or help each other?

As for the Debian maitainer.... whatever the point was lost and it isn't worth fighting over. Have a cup of Ubunt and chill or put 2 Arches together and have a happy meal.:P

[MikeTheC]

Yes.

[t0p]

Unbelievable! The OP has a problem, so he asks for help on a Debian developers' mailing list. He doesn't get the help he expects, so he has a hissy-fit and tells the dev that he's off to Ubuntu. And he thinks he's been treated bad. Heavens...

It is generally accepted that this forum is friendlier than most of its ilk. Now, go check out the threads I've started in the past. You'll see a number that have received no replies. But I don't whine about it - the people who frequent this forum are not paid customer service operatives. They are volunteers. And they don't owe me a thing. If I really really need help, Google may come to my aid. It is my friend after all!

It's a similar situation to the one the OP found himself. He asks in the wrong place. A dev (not a customer service op) replied. The OP thinks he's being treated badly and tells the dev that he's going to drop Debian in favour of Ubuntu.

I hate it when I see posts here from some guy who threatens to dump Ubuntu if we don't help him out. I usually don't bother replying to such posts, but if I do it is generally just to say "Goodbye!"

I also hate it when people come here asking for help and it's clear they haven't done even rudimentary research into how to fix their problem. Remember those unanswered questions of mine? If a post doesn't attract a reply within a day or so, I will look for a solution myself. But I don't think the OP tried to fix his problem. He had an issue about permissions, yet just sat there for 2 months waiting for a mythical customer service op to come save him. When Google is absolutely packed with links to stuff related to Linux permissions issues.

So we're friendlier here than in the Debian community? Okay... but what's wrong with that? You say the dev should have given you a link or two. Why? He doesn't owe you anything.

I strongly recommend that you pay for support from someone like Canonical. Coming to a forum or other online community and demanding/expecting help (for free!) will just alienate folk who might otherwise have helped. Like me.

[running_rabbit07]

Unbelievable! The OP has a problem, so he asks for help on a Debian developers' mailing list. He doesn't get the help he expects, so he has a hissy-fit and tells the dev that he's off to Ubuntu. And he thinks he's been treated bad. Heavens...

It is generally accepted that this forum is friendlier than most of its ilk. Now, go check out the threads I've started in the past. You'll see a number that have received no replies. But I don't whine about it - the people who frequent this forum are not paid customer service operatives. They are volunteers. And they don't owe me a thing. If I really really need help, Google may come to my aid. It is my friend after all!

It's a similar situation to the one the OP found himself. He asks in the wrong place. A dev (not a customer service op) replied. The OP thinks he's being treated badly and tells the dev that he's going to drop Debian in favour of Ubuntu.

I hate it when I see posts here from some guy who threatens to dump Ubuntu if we don't help him out. I usually don't bother replying to such posts, but if I do it is generally just to say "Goodbye!"

I also hate it when people come here asking for help and it's clear they haven't done even rudimentary research into how to fix their problem. Remember those unanswered questions of mine? If a post doesn't attract a reply within a day or so, I will look for a solution myself. But I don't think the OP tried to fix his problem. He had an issue about permissions, yet just sat there for 2 months waiting for a mythical customer service op to come save him. When Google is absolutely packed with links to stuff related to Linux permissions issues.

So we're friendlier here than in the Debian community? Okay... but what's wrong with that? You say the dev should have given you a link or two. Why? He doesn't owe you anything.

I strongly recommend that you pay for support from someone like Canonical. Coming to a forum or other online community and demanding/expecting help (for free!) will just alienate folk who might otherwise have helped. Like me.

Wow, you took the story and twisted the truth out of it, I asked for help with NVIDIA, and got a one line answer that did not help.

I did not wait for 2 months for his help.

Have you ever tried to read a website to learn anything while the best resolution you could get was 800 by 600, it just doesn't work well.

The intent of this thread was to point out how when I told him I fixed my problem by installing Ubuntu, he apparently got mad and started dissing Ubuntu. And how he didn't offer any help. Did I get mad or throw a hissy? No. I just wanted people to see how hard it is to get real help. The guy never even addressed the problem. I would have been happier if he had either never replied or if he had just said he is a maintainer not a support person. If I had known he didn't do support I wouldn't have emailed him.

In the future you should try reading the whole thread instead of making up your own little part of it.

[running_rabbit07]

I strongly recommend that you pay for support from someone like Canonical. Coming to a forum or other online community and demanding/expecting help (for free!) will just alienate folk who might otherwise have helped. Like me.

Go through all of my threads and find where I demanded help. I never have and never will.

You should get a political job, you are good at changing stories to make yourself look better.

[Elfy]

Ok - this is going nowhere now, the issue has been discussed.

Thread closed.

[bodhi.zazen]

You will run across that type of attitude on any OS, including Ubuntu, if you post the wrong question in the wrong place (and sometimes even not).

The difference is that the Ubuntu community, and in particular the moderators on these forums, weeds out or re-educates those attitudes.

I came to Ubutnu from Gentoo long ago (Actually I first installed Ubutnu by pinning the Ubuntu repositories in Debian, that was in the days of 5.04) after a similar experience with Debian. Have been with this community ever since.