Why should I bother with math...

[Delever]

Why should I bother with math, when I can make computer do it?

If there is no common practical situation where memorized stuff is required, there should be no need to memorize it! There is a lot of stuff the world nowadays, and ability to a) FIND information b) USE that information is much more important than MEMORIZING it. Memorization can be part of learning how to find information faster, but not the main focus of learning.

Thoughts?

[.Maleficus.]

Well, if you don't know the math to solve a problem, how can you expect the computer to understand the problem? Are you going to enter a word problem into a computer and expect it to understand what needs to be done? If you can't get the math to the computer it won't be much help, will it?

And no, memorization should not be the focus of learning. Who told you that it should be?

[Viva]

Maths is the most wonderful thing in the world. I laugh at somebody who says they don't like maths, but want to be a programmer.

[Chilli Bob]

.... I don't even know where to begin .....

[ddarsow]

With computers the need for learning math actually increases. Many computer programs rely on complex mathematical calculations and algorythms to perform the functions they are designed to do. If the schools do not teach students math, who will write the programs?

One possibility would be the emergrnce of an elite class of educated people who would control what information the rest had access to. Not such a good idea huh? Now go learn your dang math!

[Viva]

BTW, you're never supposed to try and memorise anything in maths. You learn maths, not memorise it.

[chucky chuckaluck]

humans think in language (imagine talking to yourself in nothing but frustrated grunts) and math is a language for understanding concepts. math could give you the tools to understand, or have a better understanding of ideas you might otherwise be completely befuddled by.

[bobbob1016]

Some of the math might come in handy, you never know. I don't have any math memorized, if you asked me to multiply out 7 by 52, I'd do it in my head. Using a trick I learned in math class by breaking it into 7*2 + 7*50. 7*50 is broken into multiplying 7 by 5 (or 7 by 2 = 14 by 2 = 28 plus 7 = 35), then 35 by 10, so 7*50=350, 350 + 7 by 2 = 364. Quicker than finding a calculator.


The answer is similar to this:

I say "Why bother reading (insert name of Famous author here)?"

You might say "Well, Mark Twain's (for example) books are interesting, and fun to read."

To which I say "Not to me, why do I need to know I can get someone to paint a fence by pretending it is fun?"


But I could actually apply that idea to something I'm doing, and that is the purpose of reading the book.

[swoll1980]

It's all about logical thinking. Forget about the algebra, algebra is for calculators. Math is problem solving, "what algebra do I need to use to figure this out?" that's math.

[stwschool]

Learning maths is important. It teaches you to think logically and solve problems. If you ever intend to be an engineer, a programmer, a designer even, you'll need a good knowledge of the workings of numbers. Trust me, being bad at maths pretty much screws every other area of your education.

Declaration: I'm a teacher so I have a vested interest here!

[stwschool]

Ok Swoll said it better than me :)

[JDShu]

Mathematics is not about memorization Its about problem solving and logic. Compare to subjects such as chemistry, history, etc. mathematics has VERY little to remember. What you ARE required to remember will be continually used over and over and over and over again.

[stwschool]

There is SOME memorisation in maths, but that's only in the early stages, memorising number bonds (for addition and subtraction) and times tables, as without that you get too bogged down in the minutae of that stuff to get into the meaty problem solving (ie it's faster to recall than to calculate). Without those core foundation elements then your maths will never reach a decent level because you'll forever be churning through the dull bits.

[ssam]

arithmetic ~= spelling
algebra/calculus ~= writing sentences
maths ~= stories/poems/songs

if english were taught like maths there would be no writers. they don't really teach maths at school.

check out some maths books in pop science bit of your local book shop, eg Dr Riemann's Zeros, The Code Book, Godel Escher Bach.

computers just make whole new areas of maths explorable, as did abacuses, log tables, slide rules, and electronic calculators.

[issih]

Some of the best mathematicians are rubbish at "maths" as in adding up and subtracting. Mathematics is really about anlysing problems and having the tools to express and model things in a way that you can then pass on to a computer to actually do the number crunching.

Until AI's are a gajillion times better than they are now you are going to have to learn how to do the problem solving...that is why you need to learn maths.

My mental arimthmetic is rubbish, but calculus and algebra...they are clever, fun and interesting. the basic manipulation of numbers is the language, once you have that you get to read the interesting books.

[stwschool]

arithmetic ~= spelling
algebra/calculus ~= writing sentences
maths ~= stories/poems/songs

if english were taught like maths there would be no writers. they don't really teach maths at school.

check out some maths books in pop science bit of your local book shop, eg Dr Riemann's Zeros, The Code Book, Godel Escher Bach.

computers just make whole new areas of maths explorable, as did abacuses, log tables, slide rules, and electronic calculators.
Oi I used to be a maths teacher (back to my first love, IT these days) and I was brilliant at it ;) Anyway to be fair, most kids just aren't up to any kind of really high-level stuff and the whole no child left behind thing really screws us all up.

[arcdrag]

Why should I bother with math, when I can make computer do it?

If there is no common practical situation where memorized stuff is required, there should be no need to memorize it! There is a lot of stuff the world nowadays, and ability to a) FIND information b) USE that information is much more important than MEMORIZING it. Memorization can be part of learning how to find information faster, but not the main focus of learning.

Thoughts?

Math involves the least memorization of any subject. If you know a select handful of theorems and how to apply those theorems, you can often come up with the rest.

In short, if you're using memorization to learn math, you're doing it wrong, and it will indeed be useless to you.

[chriskin]

Why should I bother with math, when I can make computer do it?

If there is no common practical situation where memorized stuff is required, there should be no need to memorize it! There is a lot of stuff the world nowadays, and ability to a) FIND information b) USE that information is much more important than MEMORIZING it. Memorization can be part of learning how to find information faster, but not the main focus of learning.

Thoughts?

math makes people cleverer.
it is worth the time you spend on it

[chriskin]

Math involves the least memorization of any subject. If you know a select handful of theorems and how to apply those theorems, you can often come up with the rest.

In short, if you're using memorization to learn math, you're doing it wrong, and it will indeed be useless to you.

100% true

[Gizenshya]

Some of the math might come in handy, you never know. I don't have any math memorized, if you asked me to multiply out 7 by 52, I'd do it in my head. Using a trick I learned in math class by breaking it into 7*2 + 7*50. 7*50 is broken into multiplying 7 by 5 (or 7 by 2 = 14 by 2 = 28 plus 7 = 35), then 35 by 10, so 7*50=350, 350 + 7 by 2 = 364. Quicker than finding a calculator.

You need to work on your algorithm :p

powers of 10 are easiest. 50 is half of 7x100. With practice, instantly looking at that you would see that it is 350 + (7x2)= 364. Took me about a second. With neither of those calculations do you really have to actually think :)

I prefer taking the largest chunks out first, and then work with whats left over. A significant portion of the time it can be broken down into a power of ten or two, and then one or two more simple calculations.

When I was in about the third grade we were supposed to memorize our "times tables" from 1x1 up to 10x10 I think (can't remember)... but anyway, I never bothered. It was a waste of time. Everyone in the class who did that was stumped with anything else, as they just memorized, and didn't understand. I told the teacher this and she got pissed. I told her that that is the way I learned, and I was going to take the same tests anyway. So if I was wrong then I would just fail. Of course, I didn't. I do hope your teacher isn't like mine was...

Luckily, every other math teacher and professor I've had teaches for understanding. A few of them even made it to where the people who just memorized the info and didn't understand it were screwed. Even simple things like changing a word problem into the negative or inverting it were very good at creating the "deer in the headlights" look.

[zetman]

I had a student tell me that he didn't need Math because he was going make video games for a living. ](*,) Ignoring the fact that he most certainly thought making games was similar to playing them, I pointed out that computers only understand Math and yes, console are computers. He protested, eventually yelling "Computers don't only understand Math!" and ran out of the building.

[Delever]

Ok, in any subject, focus should not be on memorization, except when it is required by subject.

History: requires heavy amounts of memorization of exact dates. Events themselves and order of them is all right, but focusing on exact months and days..? Poor kids. And history is weird... it... grows every day.

Math: learning how to solve problems is all right, knowing what cos and sin actually is - allright, but requiring to memorize a table of sin and cos values? Actually, most don't even know what sin and cos is after that.

I am mostly arguing for more focus on using information.

Maybe we should simply start worshiping google. Nah.. damn, I seem to be loosing argument here. Maybe because I like to know purpose at all times, and memorizing without understanding why seems pointless.

[MasterNetra]

Ok Swoll said it better than me :)

Its because swoll is just better then everyone hands down! :p :lolflag:

[swoll1980]

mathematics has VERY little to remember.

Except tons of equations. Lets not forget about those.

[monsterstack]

arithmetic ~= spelling
algebra/calculus ~= writing sentences
maths ~= stories/poems/songs

if english were taught like maths there would be no writers. they don't really teach maths at school.

check out some maths books in pop science bit of your local book shop, eg Dr Riemann's Zeros, The Code Book, Godel Escher Bach.

computers just make whole new areas of maths explorable, as did abacuses, log tables, slide rules, and electronic calculators.

What a great way of looking at it. I had to re-learn a bunch of old mathematics for my work, after seven years of non-practice, and this is exactly the way I went about doing it. Learn the syntax, the grammar, the punctuation; become adept at moving the numbers around. The vocabulary invariably takes care of itself.

[Giant Speck]

I don't think it's safe to rely on computers rather than learning something.

[zetman]

Except tons of equations. Lets not forget about those.

Excluding DiffEq, if you're memorizing more than a dozen or so equations, you're doing it wrong and/or you have a bad teacher.

[stwschool]

History is that way at schools because most kids just can't cope past that level. Don't get me wrong, you get a few, but most really can't do it. I hated history at school, but at uni it became much more interesting (my degree contained bits of history) as we got to look at not just what happened but why, the contexts in which events took place. At that point, the things I learned in school became useful, as a backdrop to reference this stuff against, so I knew that while x was happening because of y, z was occurring somewhere else, which gave rise to questions about how they might be related, and perhaps part of an overall movement.

The point is, as much as we may dislike that stuff and view it as boring, it's essential. Additionally, school is important and MUST have some stuff we don't like, which we may find boring. It teaches us to persevere and take responsibility, as in real life we will all have to do something we don't like at some point.

Finally, remember that at school your teacher has to teach the whole class, not just you. I accept that this is not ideal, and I see this in the progress I can make with a student during a one-to-one tutorial session, but while it's not perfect it's the best we have at present (though I would certainly like to see investment in reducing class sizes, my best performing classes have always been the smallest ones, and that's no co-incidence).

[swoll1980]

Excluding DiffEq, if you're memorizing more than a dozen or so equations, you're doing it wrong and/or you have a bad teacher.

That's pretty funny. :lol: Just in geometry alone their are more than a dozen that I have to remember. I'm thinking more like 50 that I have to have remembered.

add: I'll scan my need to know sheets up for you.

[starcannon]

Why should I bother with math, when I can make computer do it?

If there is no common practical situation where memorized stuff is required, there should be no need to memorize it! There is a lot of stuff the world nowadays, and ability to a) FIND information b) USE that information is much more important than MEMORIZING it. Memorization can be part of learning how to find information faster, but not the main focus of learning.

Thoughts?
If your math skills are limited to rote memorization, then I can see your point to a certain degree. If however you understand the math, then you have an incredible resource in your mental arsenal. Math is in my opinion not so much about the numbers, as it is about learning a very good way of thinking about things; problem solving is a vital skill that math can hone to a fine edge. Anyway, yeah a computer can do your math for you, but a computer can not do your everyday life problem solving for you... at least not just yet; my .02, learn the math, understand it, own it.

P.S. yes, there are a lot of equations/formulas to memorize; we memorize those because they are useful. Why reinvent the wheel every time you need to use the quadratic equation? But can you understand and proof the formulas/equations that you have memorized? If so, then the goal of being a better thinker is being achieved; if the proofs make no sense, and all your doing is plug n' chug, then theres a good chance its time to go back over the material that didn't really stick the first time around.

[JohnnySage50307]

I'm studying Computer Engineering at the University of Pittsburgh; my main focuses are on Control Theory, Robotics, & AI. Here's a few examples of where I had to encounter math that it was absolutely required.

I am buying a Beagleboard (an embedded Linux computer) and interfacing it with a robot of mine to make it a little more intelligent. To interface it, I had to design a pair of circuits to go between the embedded computer and the robot. It is fairly easy to model the interfacing circuits using mathematical equations (since none are able to be found online anywhere...I dare you to try it!), and using what I learned, I could decompose those equations into the actual circuits I needed to build.

In a mobile robotics class I took at Pitt, we had to design a FIR filter for sonar and infrared sensors. Yes, there are tons of information available on FIR filter design, but no flat easy-in-easy-out methods; they require a good bit of calculus because each sensor is slightly different and requires slightly different tuning.

There is a research project which I am involved with that is about designing a new type of AI that learns like how part of the human brain learns. Because of it, I've had to learn how to make Artificial Neural Networks (ANNs) and design a simulation which models a phenomenon my professor had discovered years ago. To prove that these are correct solutions in all cases and model their exact behaviors, we used Linear Algebra (matrix math). You can find the paper my professor wrote available on my website.

Speaking of matrix math, programming three dimensional graphics engines for games require immense amounts of that. All of the lighting, camera, and object transformations, along with making mouse-interaction possible require designers to sit down and solve the math behind it. Something as simple as changing the zoom ratio will ultimately affect EVERYTHING, so you have to be very skilled at linear algebra to make a successful graphics engine.

Hopefully these examples give you a better understanding. Personally, I hate memorization, but if you remember the general properties of various things, you can apply them to everything in the real-world. There is no such thing as useless knowledge--only when you don't have a reason to utilize it does it seem useless.

[zetman]

I don't think it's safe to rely on computers rather than learning something.

So true. Some of the kids I tutor have been taught that went they get a part in a problem with lots of numbers and no variables on one side of an equation, they should put the whole expression into their calculator at once. Problem is that the TI-83 handles negation last and exponents with operations in them need to be in parentheses. Something like -2^4-2 comes out as -18. [Should have been (-2)^(4-2)] They didn't even question how a even power could give a negative result. The problem with computers is that they will only do exactly what you tell them to do, not what you want them to do.

[swoll1980]

Excluding DiffEq, if you're memorizing more than a dozen or so equations, you're doing it wrong and/or you have a bad teacher.

here's my my "need to know" sheet for this class. Some of them are diffeq equtions, many are not. There's one more in next post

[swoll1980]

Last one.

[Copernicus1234]

It all depends on what you are going to create.

I got incredibly bored by math myself because I did not get a kick out of finding the solution to the problems. It did nothing for me.

On the other hand, creating a program on the computer that accomplishes a task in a elegant way gives me great satisfaction.

Personally Ive never needed maths for the applications I have programmed, but they are mostly flashy web applications and server side general processing tools. If I were creating games or engineering tools, I would most likely need maths.

Guess I have a more general view of maths. I dont share the "you NEED maths to be a programmer" idea because its simply not true. It depends on what your projects are. If you think math sucks but programming is great fun, keep programming.

[JohnnySage50307]

lol, you should see MY cheatsheets!!

[Delever]

here's my my "need to know" sheet for this class. Some of them are diffeq equtions, many are not. There's one more in next post

All right, you need to know them :/. Why? Because I had to learn, therefore you should learn them too :P And make sure to learn obscure ones, because they like to add problems which are long to solve with basic equations and quick when you know "advanced" one.

On more serious note, this sheet should be given to students at exam. Those who can't solve problems fail. Those who try to learn to use them at exam fail too because there is not enough time to do that (I tried).

[zetman]

That's pretty funny. :lol: Just in geometry alone their are more than a dozen that I have to remember. I'm thinking more like 50 that I have to have remembered.

add: I'll scan my need to know sheets up for you.

hmm, geometry...
There are things you will memorize in geometry because it's easier (read: faster) than constantly re-deriving them. It's like how we all memorize multiplication rather than repeatedly add. What's important to know is that 2*3 is two added together three time, not that it's equal to six. The thing that needs memorization is the rule for multiplication. With that, you can re-derive the multiplication tables.

edit: I just finished looking over your sheets and I still stand by my original statement.

[Copernicus1234]

I had a student tell me that he didn't need Math because he was going make video games for a living. ](*,) Ignoring the fact that he most certainly thought making games was similar to playing them, I pointed out that computers only understand Math and yes, console are computers. He protested, eventually yelling "Computers don't only understand Math!" and ran out of the building.

Computers only understand maths, yes, but we do not program in binary anymore. Maths is certainly required for making 3D games, but its not required to make a program that takes user input and puts it into a database for example. How much math do you think the creators of Facebook used? Or Gmail?

The truth is that not all programmers need to be great at math. There is plenty of room for programmers with other qualities besides math. Please forward this to your students.

[Delever]

Furthermore, once you know what dot product does and what function to call, it is easy to build a shader - no need to memorize anything more. You just need basic understanding of vectors and good imagination.

[zetman]

Computers only understand maths, yes, but we do not program in binary anymore. Maths is certainly required for making 3D games, but its not required to make a program that takes user input and puts it into a database for example. How much math do you think the creators of Facebook used? Or Gmail?

The truth is that not all programmers need to be great at math. There is plenty of room for programmers with other qualities besides math. Please forward this to your students.

The student in question was leaning to add fractions and decimals...

[swoll1980]

Computers only understand maths, yes, but we do not program in binary anymore. Maths is certainly required for making 3D games, but its not required to make a program that takes user input and puts it into a database for example. How much math do you think the creators of Facebook used? Or Gmail?


Whether it has numbers or not it's still math. Try writing a program without constants, and variables. With out having to figure out how your going to do it. This is all math. We're not talking about arithmetic, and algebra. Math is a whole different thing. I wouldn't hire someone that couldn't do math.

[khelben1979]

I will be continueing math studies myself this autumn. I expect to fail, but I will study with a relaxed attitude, I have no interest in getting burned out by it.

I hope to advance in the studies so I can take the next step in the future. Let's see what happens.

If anyone is interested in my present math notes I will share them. Just a note.

[zetman]

Furthermore, once you know what dot product does and what function to call, it is easy to build a shader - no need to memorize anything more. You just need basic understanding of vectors and good imagination.

So, what your saying is that after you memorize the rules, you just need to apply them? I think thats what your saying. I hope so, because its exactly the argument I'm making. If you have been lead to believe that Math is anything other than this, you have been misinformed. Or perhaps, poorly informed.

[Delever]

So, what your saying is that after you memorize the rules, you just need to apply them? I think thats what your saying. I hope so, because its exactly the argument I'm making. If you have been lead to believe that Math is anything other than this, you have been misinformed. Or perhaps, poorly informed.

I am saying that rules without ability to apply them sucks. I have seen that too many times. One is provided with all necessary information on the plate, but can't do damn thing with it. Actually, memorization is not the problem, lazyness and lack of focus is the problem :)

[JDShu]

That's pretty funny. :lol: Just in geometry alone their are more than a dozen that I have to remember. I'm thinking more like 50 that I have to have remembered.

add: I'll scan my need to know sheets up for you.

Or we can be hardcore and derive everything from first principles.:guitar:

[phrostbyte]

Math education tends to be really awful. But math itself is probably the most important academic subjects in that EVERYTHING in based on math. The whole universe and all of computer science.

[Delever]

Math education tends to be really awful. But math itself is probably the most important academic subjects in that EVERYTHING in based on math. The whole universe and all of computer science.

It's quite interesting, it seems that math happens to fit anywhere, but probably not based - maybe... symbiotic? :)

[phrostbyte]

Math also has very little to memorize compared to other subject like English where you have to memorize thousands of words, what they mean and how they are spelled. But I insist that most math teachers teach the subject very poorly. I've never had a math teacher that I'd classify as competent in my life. If you just tell your students a bunch of rules and tell them to solve problems you are FAIL. Math is all about algorithms. Every operation is just an algorithm to learn. A set of rules does not constitute an algorithm. You need a set of operations that in a specific order.

Thank God for MIT OpenCourseWare. :) That website helped me so much through college. If you want to see a competent math professor take a look at the Linear Algebra course at MIT.

[Dharmachakra]

Read Calculus Made Easy by Thompson... one of the only math "textbooks" worth reading.

[swoll1980]

edit: I just finished looking over your sheets and I still stand by my original statement.

I don't get it. I don't want it to seem like I'm arguing here, but where do you get 12 from. As I said in geometry alone there are more than 12. If I can break mathematics done to 12 formulas this would be like the holy grail. Please tell me about the magic 12, and you will be my hero forever.

[phrostbyte]

I don't get it. I don't want it to seem like I'm arguing here, but where do you get 12 from. As I said in geometry alone there are more than 12. If I can break mathematics done to 12 formulas this would be like the holy grail. Please tell me about the magic 12, and you will be my hero forever.

Well your cheat sheets are full of basic algebra rules and stuff like that. The fact that you can fit what is basically 10+ years of math education on a couple pages is amazing. Try doing the same for English or History for instance.

[swoll1980]

Well your cheat sheets are full of basic algebra rules and stuff like that. The fact that you can fit what is basically 10+ years of math education on a couple pages is amazing. Try doing the same for English or History for instance.

I understand that. Zetman said I only need to remember 12 equations, or I don't know what I'm doing, or I have a bad teacher. Obviously I don't know what I'm doing, or I have a bad teacher, because I have to remember way more than 12 equations.

[Gizenshya]

Math also has very little to memorize compared to other subject like English where you have to memorize thousands of words, what they mean and how they are spelled. But I insist that most math teachers teach the subject very poorly. I've never had a math teacher that I'd classify as competent in my life. If you just tell your students a bunch of rules and tell them to solve problems you are FAIL. Math is all about algorithms. Every operation is just an algorithm to learn. A set of rules does not constitute an algorithm. You need a set of operations that in a specific order.

Regarding your first sentence...

If you want to think about it like that, math is only addition. Everything else is a pre-defined way to add something to something else. Be it a negative number, series, or whatever. A good example of this is binary code. Every kind of model can be explained in terms of 0's and 1's. The more complex ideas, like derivatives, can be broken down into a series of additions. We use symbols like delta, sigma, alpha, and zillions of other words, characters and phrases to [i]represent[/b] these complex ideas in concise ways. A rose by any other name...

So... strictly speaking, all you need is basic addition knowledge and time... lots and lots of it. Yeah, you can reinvent the wheel (say, Pythagorean's theorem), but it is easier to have it memorized.

It has been a while since I've had to use trigonometry on a regular basis, so I don't remember any of the numerical values. I do understand them, though. I would have to draw a unit circle and calculate it all out to get the numbers (like sin of pi/2). Yeah, it would take a while, but it's doable. I would rather look it up, though. Back when I used them often, I had the basic numbers memorized. Now, if I had just memorized the numbers, I would have no clue what they actually meant, and I wouldn't be able to make a unit circle. But now, years later, the knowledge has not left me.

And yeah, math just explains reality. We have our general models and perfect examples, but in actuality they are all approximations. We won't ever know anything 100% because we will never know all variable values at any given time. By knowing some you necessarily change others. Heisenberg uncertainty principle ftmfw :o

[zetman]

I don't get it. I don't want it to seem like I'm arguing here, but where do you get 12 from. As I said in geometry alone there are more than 12. If I can break mathematics done to 12 formulas this would be like the holy grail. Please tell me about the magic 12, and you will be my hero forever.

12 is not a magic number. I said a dozen, or so. I don't know an exact number, I never counted. The truth is, the only exact number of things you need to memorize are how ever many first principles there are. (I think 2, but I never actually took proofs) Everything, and I mean everything else can be derived from them.
Alot of what was on your sheets was the same thing restated different ways. The trig section for example is about 6 time larger than it needs to be. And there's an entire section devoted to what not to do. The first page is a rehash of the rule of algebra, with some specific examples. Rather that trying to memorize the whole sheet because you teacher told you to, I would suggest memorizing whatever minimum subset you find it easiest to derive the rest of it from.

[arcdrag]

I understand that. Zetman said I only need to remember 12 equations, or I don't know what I'm doing, or I have a bad teacher. Obviously I don't know what I'm doing, or I have a bad teacher, because I have to remember way more than 12 equations.

What he meant was that you can figure out everything based on a select few equations. For example, basically everything on the first page of your sheet can be figured out whenever its needed knowing nothing more than 7th grade algebra. Thus, if you've passed 7th grade algebra, there's absolutely no need for you to memorize that first sheet.

Also, take your unit circle for example. Rather than memorizing the whole thing, you can just memorize the relative dimensions of a 30-60-90 and 45-45-90 triangle, and figure out any point on that unit circle based on your triangle. He's not saying that there are a specific twelve equations. However, I would say I could probably derive everything on your Need to Know sheet using less than 12 actual equations...not counting grade school arithmetic.

[PurposeOfReason]

Except tons of equations. Lets not forget about those.


here's my my "need to know" sheet for this class. Some of them are diffeq equtions, many are not. There's one more in next post

I don't have any of those memorize. If fact, I can derive most of them in my head just by thinking about it. They just make sense.

OP, you've never done math, I can promise you that. I'm minoring in math and my best friend is majoring in it. You don't do math until the second half of calculus. It is not equations, it is not memorizing, it is problem solving using those things. What you're learning now are just tools. I don't think what you do is math, that stuff is just a requirement, so to say, to actually get anything done. Oh, and I don't want you to see the algorithm that valve had to dream up to get the portal gun in the game 'portal' to work. Math is everywhere.

[CJ Master]

Well, if you don't know the math to solve a problem, how can you expect the computer to understand the problem? Are you going to enter a word problem into a computer and expect it to understand what needs to be done? If you can't get the math to the computer it won't be much help, will it?

And no, memorization should not be the focus of learning. Who told you that it should be?

Wolfram|alpha. (http://www89.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=one+hundred+times+sixty+billion+divided+by+42+* +3.14)

[mobilediesel]

lol, you should see MY cheatsheets!!

Scan them and let us see!

Also, to the OP, find a copy of the book "Mathemagics: How to Look Like A Genius Without Really Trying (http://www.amazon.com/Mathemagics-Genius-Without-Really-Trying/dp/0737300086)." I once found a copy for $3.


Think of a 1 or 2 digit number:

Double the number
Add 12
Divide the total by 2
Subtract the original number
Your answer is 6.

That freaks people out.

[Gizenshya]

I can't believe I forgot about Wolfram Alpha!

Overview of Wolfram Alpha (http://www89.wolframalpha.com/screencast/introducingwolframalpha.html) (video)

I first heard about it in a BBC article... but I was disappointed because it was about a month before it opened, so it just had a "coming soon" sign and didn't do anything :( Thanks for reminding me!

[JDShu]

I don't understand why everybody thinks that OP is trying to be a programmer, was this ever mentioned?


I don't have any of those memorize. If fact, I can derive most of them in my head just by thinking about it. They just make sense.

OP, you've never done math, I can promise you that. I'm minoring in math and my best friend is majoring in it. You don't do math until the second half of calculus. It is not equations, it is not memorizing, it is problem solving using those things. What you're learning now are just tools. I don't think what you do is math, that stuff is just a requirement, so to say, to actually get anything done. Oh, and I don't want you to see the algorithm that valve had to dream up to get the portal gun in the game 'portal' to work. Math is everywhere.

@OP:
Hes right in the sense that when people actually study math, it is absolutely nothing like what you learn in high school (which I think we are all assuming is the level of mathematics that you are learning). However, my guess is that you probably have no interest at this point in going into mathematics at a higher education.

However, a vast majority of subjects and fields require a significant amount of maths. To name a few: engineering, the natural sciences, economics, psychology, computer science etc. Pre-med? Need math. Business? Need it as well. While you may not need to be amazing at it for some fields, some knowledge in mathematics is always a requirement, unless you are the kind of person that has revolutionary, and I mean really revolutionary, ideas.

So to answer your question about why you should bother, (besides the joys of learning :D), you need it in almost every field that you might want to study in the future. Unless you plan on pursuing something in fine arts or language, I can guarantee you that the basic foundations of mathematics that you are learning will be needed. A computer will not be able to figure everything out for you at that level because you often need to understand the math in order to understand the subject.

Wow.. rambled a bit there.

[JDShu]

Scan them and let us see!

Originally Posted by Mathemagics
Think of a 1 or 2 digit number:

Double the number
Add 12
Divide the total by 2
Subtract the original number

Your answer is 6.


That freaks people out.

Going to be a d*** and say LOL it really shouldn't though:

(2*x + 12)/2 -x = 2*(x + 6)/2 - x = x + 6 - x = 6

Doesn't even need to be a two digit number, any rational number suffices.

[mobilediesel]

Going to be a d*** and say LOL it really shouldn't though:

(2*x + 12)/2 -x = 2*(x + 6)/2 - x = x + 6 - x = 6

Doesn't even need to be a two digit number, any rational number suffices.

Obviously it just freaks out the people who are already freaked out by numbers. I think the 2-digit limit was just to make it easier to mess with people. Just to make sure their calculator would hold all the digits on its display or something like that.

[JDShu]

Obviously it just freaks out the people who are already freaked out by numbers. I think the 2-digit limit was just to make it easier to mess with people. Just to make sure their calculator would hold all the digits on its display or something like that.

Haha I admit that back in elementary school I used to love these number games. Still, in this day and age it shouldn't be hard for somebody with a high school education to figure out. Granted, I realize that some people are under-privileged.

[MaxIBoy]

Here's one:
Take any number.
Add zero.
It will still be the same number! (Unless your original was infinite or something.)



Anyway...
No one does trig functions by hand anymore... but you still have to know what they do and what they're for. (And I've actually needed that knowledge for practical purposes. When I was figuring out how much cable I'd need to run under the house. Also when I was writing a renderer in python, but that's not exactly a practical purpose.)

[tom66]

I don't know if you want to be a programmer, but it is incredibly useful to know the trigonometry stuff.

For example, what is the straight-line distance between two points A and B? Use Pythagoras's Theorem, c = sqrt(a^2 + b^2).

Need to find an angle given a gradient? Use atan or atan2.

Need to find a gradient given an angle? Use sin and cos.

Missing distance in a triangle: trigonometry, or Pythagoras's Theorem where appropriate.

Fast multiplication and division? Logarithms.

And, it is very useful in later life to have this knowledge at your disposal when solving problems instead of looking them up.

[toupeiro]

I was never a great math student, but I still use it quite a bit in troubleshooting and performance tweaking. And, depending on the situation, a computer can only give you the answer, but you have to know how to present the right question.

[lisati]

Basic arithmetic is good for everyday stuff. Example: If you're on a limited budget it can be helpful being able to keep a running total of what you're spending at the supermarket when your calculator battery is flat or the store doesn't have a "self scan" service. Example 2: It can also be helpful to figure out if the bus driver is ripping you off by giving you the wrong change.

I disagree with swoll1980 about algebra being for calculators (see here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7603565&postcount=9)): it's a kind of shorthand that can sometimes be used for nutting out how to solve a problem. And any similarity between algebra and a computer program is purely coincidental.

[lisati]

Going to be a d*** and say LOL it really shouldn't though:

(2*x + 12)/2 -x = 2*(x + 6)/2 - x = x + 6 - x = 6

Doesn't even need to be a two digit number, any rational number suffices.

Good example of a use of algebra!

[jpkotta]

I kind of see your point, OP. As in why memorize cos(pi/3) = 1/2? It really doesn't make much sense. In fact, it's somewhat damaging, because it encourages people to think in terms of calculations and values instead of what math is really about: patterns and relations. I taught an applied math course once, and I continually saw people getting hung up on calculations. They didn't see the big picture, and made obvious mistakes because of it. And they tried to memorize instead of understand. (Also, I was not a very good teacher, but we'll ignore that for now.)

[tariquepark]

I think the main problem with schools nowadays is students are not taught how to learn. We spend more time telling them all these facts (e.g. 2 x 2 = 4 ) but not Why it is 4. If students are taught these lessons , then every other mathematical problem is solve-able, regardless of how many factors are included.

Math is also incredibly important for learning the value of rational thinking (i.e there are no "almost right" either it is correct or it isn't ) which is definately used in every decision of your life

I am a boatbuilder (cabinetmaker by trade) and i have to say its amusing watching all the young guys reaching for a calculator just to work out basic things like dividing a given length into 3 :p

BTW I Had a fantastic teacher at school, and I just love learning!!!

[Swagman]

I think the main problem with schools nowadays is students are not taught how to learn. We spend more time telling them all these facts (e.g. 2 x 2 = 4 ) but not Why it is 4. If students are taught these lessons , then every other mathematical problem is solve-able, regardless of how many factors are included.

Math is also incredibly important for learning the value of rational thinking (i.e there are no "almost right" either it is correct or it isn't ) which is definately used in every decision of your life

I am a boatbuilder (cabinetmaker by trade) and i have to say its amusing watching all the young guys reaching for a calculator just to work out basic things like dividing a given length into 3 :p

BTW I Had a fantastic teacher at school, and I just love learning!!!

^ THIS^

It also depends on what trade you intend to go into when you step into the real world.

99.9% of Math you learn at school you will never use.

The only "absolute definite" is memorising your times table.

[Bölvaður]

99.9% of Math you learn at school you will never use.

Depends upon who you are.
For me the psychologists I am studying with do not know enough maths to get accurate findings (using tables and only use handful of simple formulas)

But most people have mindblowingly simple jobs like they have or even simpler so... yeah I guess you are correct. But it doesnt change that we need people that know math to improve it.

[MaxIBoy]

I kind of see your point, OP. As in why memorize cos(pi/3) = 1/2? The sad part is, I'll probably never forget that...

[doas777]

Why should I bother with math, when I can make computer do it?

If there is no common practical situation where memorized stuff is required, there should be no need to memorize it! There is a lot of stuff the world nowadays, and ability to a) FIND information b) USE that information is much more important than MEMORIZING it. Memorization can be part of learning how to find information faster, but not the main focus of learning.

Thoughts?

in IT it will make little difference. in IS you would not even be able to communicate with your colleagues.

[mobilediesel]

Haha I admit that back in elementary school I used to love these number games. Still, in this day and age it shouldn't be hard for somebody with a high school education to figure out. Granted, I realize that some people are under-privileged.

Throughout most of school I was horrible in math. Barely squeaked by most of the time. In high school I got an algebra teacher who not only liked his job, he made most of us like being taught! He didn't just worry about getting us to pass the next test. He taught us so that he could write random equations on the board and we would figure the answer and not even have to ask him if we were right. We KNEW we were right!

There aren't near enough teachers like that. Even though I don't use a whole lot of algebra I can still work things out without google or wolfram|alpha.

[Pogeymanz]

A lot of math in high-school is not taught the way it should be.

I remember having to memorize and recite the quadratic equation. It wasn't until much later that I learned how to derive it.

And in calculus, the whole class, except for me and a few others, memorized the definition of a derivative for the first exam and then by the end of the year they couldn't write it down for the life of them. Whereas, I and a few others never memorized it- we just understood that it's the slope. Coincidentally, we never got caught off-guard by the teacher. (Except when she did folder grades. Seriously... in 11th grade we needed folder checks??)

I don't mean to brag. I'm just saying that memorizing math is not the way to learn it. Yes, of course there is some memorizing: angles in a triangle add to 180, area of a circle is Pi*r^2, but there is memorizing in every subject, so it's pointless to chastise mathematics for that.

[liamnixon]

Lots of people get hung up on the "I'll never need to use this ever" thought, and don't realize that's not the point of learning math. I struggle with (I'm studying electronics, but I'm bad at math. Bad, huh ;) ), but it teaches us to think rationally and procedurely (is that a word), as well as improve problem-solving skills. It's been incredibly helpful in my day-to-day life, too. I do agree, however, that most math classes are not taught probably. You can't just get the facts, you gotta know why.

Then again, I said the same things when I was in high school.

[johnb820]

You tell me when I will ever need to know how to take the second integral of a sinusoidal function, even in computer science which I am studying. I understood the value of statistics, the point of calculus, and to a lesser degree the usefulness of probability but to imply I will need to replicate such mathematics is dumb. It's just like in programming. You may need to understand a binary search tree but what is the point of replicating one when there is almost always an implementation of a BST in "name your favorite language"?

[Shpongle]

if your programming youll need it also for encryption , as some examples

[jbrown96]

I don't have much to add, but this is my favorite xkcd comic.

[amingv]

99.9% of Math you learn at school you will never use...


...If you (quite tragically) die of SIDS.

@OP: What grade are you in? What do you plan to study when you grow up? Are you really willing for a computer to replace your own knowledge?

I saw the interests section in your profile, if you pursue them you'll need MORE math than what is taught in school.

[dragos240]

Really, you will never truly understand computers and OSs until you understand math.

[rolleander]

What happens if you were to say, be working at a restaurant or a retail job and you're running a register and the computer breaks and you need to manually calculate price, sales tax, and your customer's change? The overuse of computers to do everything causes us to not use our brains as much and I've actually seen someone working a register who couldn't count change. I think that schools are starting to teach calculators way too early...

[swoll1980]

What happens if you were to say, be working at a restaurant or a retail job and you're running a register and the computer breaks and you need to manually calculate price, sales tax, and your customer's change?

You pull the cell phone out of your pocket? I was going to say "Use your Casio calculator watch" but the youngeons wouldn't understand.

[lisati]

I HAD to study Latin at school, and dropped it it as soon as I could because the connection with real life wasn't immediately apparent. Sometimes, however, half-forgotten stuff comes back.

Another field which draws on maths comes to mind: statistics. A basic grasp of this area can help you tell if claims on TV are realistic or not.

Anyone game to browse this thread and do a summary of the different real-world situations where maths of some kind is useful?

[amingv]

What happens if you were to say, be working at a restaurant or a retail job and you're running a register and the computer breaks and you need to manually calculate price, sales tax, and your customer's change? The overuse of computers to do everything causes us to not use our brains as much and I've actually seen someone working a register who couldn't count change. I think that schools are starting to teach calculators way too early...

http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/

[mobilediesel]

What happens if you were to say, be working at a restaurant or a retail job and you're running a register and the computer breaks and you need to manually calculate price, sales tax, and your customer's change? The overuse of computers to do everything causes us to not use our brains as much and I've actually seen someone working a register who couldn't count change. I think that schools are starting to teach calculators way too early...

The same thing any cashier under 30 years old does: "Uhmm I don't know what change to give you!"

The next time that happens I will just walk out without paying.

[dragos240]

You pull the cell phone out of your pocket?

Oh how I hate cell phones.

[lukeiamyourfather]

The world can always use another burger flipper if that's what you mean.

[lisati]

http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/

Eeek!

[amingv]

You pull the cell phone out of your pocket?

As an ex-retail employee who knows the system will only break when the store is packed with customers, I'd say you'd be out of batteries in ~10 minutes; less if you're the chatty-brainless cashier (there's one in most stores).

[Pogeymanz]

You tell me when I will ever need to know how to take the second integral of a sinusoidal function, even in computer science which I am studying. I understood the value of statistics, the point of calculus, and to a lesser degree the usefulness of probability but to imply I will need to replicate such mathematics is dumb. It's just like in programming. You may need to understand a binary search tree but what is the point of replicating one when there is almost always an implementation of a BST in "name your favorite language"?

Well, I'm sorry to hear that you know how to do something that you wont have to do, but I'm not going to cry for you. There are some people that wish they had the intellect to do an integral.

Of course, I'm biased because I'm a physics and math student, so 3D vector calculus and group theory are a big part of my day-to-day life.

[arcdrag]

You tell me when I will ever need to know how to take the second integral of a sinusoidal function, even in computer science which I am studying. I understood the value of statistics, the point of calculus, and to a lesser degree the usefulness of probability but to imply I will need to replicate such mathematics is dumb. It's just like in programming. You may need to understand a binary search tree but what is the point of replicating one when there is almost always an implementation of a BST in "name your favorite language"?

There may be an implementation of it, but its not always the best for what you're doing. Also, by not knowing the algorithms, its impossible to know things like why that BST that is lightning quick when loading random data...but its crashing like Gary Busey when you ask it to load a list that is nearly in order.

So go ahead and program everything using the STL while all of your competition writes code that is optimized and has far less bloat. Sure it might get a product to work...but without some degree of optimization, you leave your work open to be 1-upped by your competition.