No leg to stand on

[Colo2]

Yesterday, my friend came around (Vista lover) and I showed him ubuntu. He made it very clear that he found it "crap"

I showed him the Emerald window dresser, I said: can you do that in vista?

I showed him the Wobbly windows effects, I said: can vista aero do that??

I showed him the compiz rotating cube and he could guess what I was about to say.

After showing him the way I had customized my PC, the fact that you can actually customize ubuntu unlike vista where it looks the same as when you first installed it, He made the comment: "Ubuntu is so behind." I laughed so hard actually, I really did. After all I had shown him, he said that!?!?!

I think I pursuaded him that ubuntu was better when I had: Compiz, wobbly windows, emerald, VNC, screenlets and about 5 firefox windows open and system monitor said I was only using 478 of my 2GB RAM.

When he left yesterday evening, he asked to borrow my Ubuntu CD :lolflag:

I had won the battle! He went home with a copy of the free Ubuntu 9.04, I.. get the feeling he was happy :)

[BuffaloX]

If he loves Vista, Ubuntu may not be for him.

Don't loose your friends over an OS dispute.

Linux is more powerful and versatile than Windows, but Windows has more apps if you can pay for them, or don't mind using pirated software.

[Colo2]

Oh, we are both so opinionated, we have our own ideas, but we are not the sort of people to get into such of an argument that we become not friends :P


Another thing I mentioned to him is that the Microsoft website is so bloated, takes 15 years to load and most of the stuff you have to pay for anyway :P

If one little script malfunctions on the microsoft website, BANG! you cannot download SP2, BANG! you cannot download silverlight just because of one overbloated slow website.

With linux, You don't need to go scrambling around slow websites to get stuff, its a question of a simple search, in a quick responsive application (Synaptic) > He agreed with me on that

[stwschool]

Fair enough but honestly does it matter what anyone else uses? If you're happy with linux then great, but you don't need to ram it down anyones throat.

[Colo2]

He has been known to be cocky about how good Aero is :P > This was just a counter attack.

[heroidi]

i think it's time to show you'r friend about the truth of WindowsWWIsta
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/6085/windowsvistalogowallpap.jpg

[Colo2]

i think it's time to show you'r friend about the truth of WindowsWWIsta
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/6085/windowsvistalogowallpap.jpg

That made me laugh so hard I my brother was like: "what???"

=D

[monsterstack]

My younger brother is a bit like that. He's a Mac fanboy, and as most of his friends are Windows-users, most of his arguments fall down flat when he uses them on me. I do admire his eternal attempts to get me to switch, though. He too made the mistake of trying to argue that Macs have flashier effects. I spun round my laptop and span the cube around a few times and wobbled some Windows etc. "This laptop cost me 300 pounds," I said. Another time, after an exhausting discussion about why Macs are so amazing, he asked, "All right, name one thing you can do on Linux or Windows that you can't do on a Mac!" I had been waiting for this moment ever since my brother became a Mac user two years previously. I grinned, took a puff of my cigarette and blew the smoke out ostentatiously, and said, "Right-click." My youngest brother then looked at him and said, "You have been trolled." That was a good day to be me.

[MikeTheC]

Anyone who's as ignorant or just plain stupid as that guy isn't worth having as a friend in the first place. :shock:

[Swarms]

My younger brother is a bit like that. He's a Mac fanboy, and as most of his friends are Windows-users, most of his arguments fall down flat when he uses them on me. I do admire his eternal attempts to get me to switch, though. He too made the mistake of trying to argue that Macs have flashier effects. I spun round my laptop and span the cube around a few times and wobbled some Windows etc. "This laptop cost me 300 pounds," I said. Another time, after an exhausting discussion about why Macs are so amazing, he asked, "All right, name one thing you can do on Linux or Windows that you can't do on a Mac!" I had been waiting for this moment ever since my brother became a Mac user two years previously. I grinned, took a puff of my cigarette and blew the smoke out ostentatiously, and said, "Right-click." My youngest brother then looked at him and said, "You have been trolled." That was a good day to be me.

What? I can right-click?

[Johnsie]

IMO compiz is very buggy (when it does actually work on a computer) and doesn't serve much useful purpose. What use is a computer with 'wobbly windows' if the hardware attached to it doesn't even work? Windows will work with most hardware but with Linux you are restricted to what you can buy. I wouldn't shove Linux down anyones throat because I know it doesn't meet the needs of all users, especially people who are used to Windows.

[Pasdar]

The extra effects (e.g. turn desktop, etc) are really useless. I'd rather they spend their time on fixing/making some useful things and only then make these extras.

[swoll1980]

The extra effects (e.g. turn desktop, etc) are really useless. I'd rather they spend their time on fixing/making some useful things and only then make these extras.

Who's "they"? The developers at Compiz wanted to make some cool effects for
X and they did. What, we're going to complain about what they do for fun? I don't think they care what you do in your spare time, do they?

[Pasdar]

Who's "they"? The developers at Compiz wanted to make some cool effects for
X and they did. What, we're going to complain about what they do for fun? I don't think they care what you do in your spare time, do they?
The "linux scene" or whatever you want to call it consists, for the most part, of thousands of disorganized developers who do a variety of things for fun. Many of them do that for many reasons really, but one of the main reasons is that they want to provide a good alternative to the current proprietary OS's and the software used on those. The reasons for doing that are ideological.

Based on the reasons they develop these software, namely that I as an end-user use it, spread it and the ideology of it. I am allowed to form my opinion about them and their product too. Here it goes:

What I am about to say is recognized and is actually something 'canocial' is attempting to do:

* Organize everyone in the 'linux scene' to go in one path and do this by:
- cooperation (e.g. same release dates)
- centralized places where certain things take place (e.g. launchpad)
- going for one type of packaging system
- etc

If someone actually managed to organize all these developers to work on one specific goal, there really is no competition that can go up against that. Right now there are too many people doing 'whatever' for 'fun' and it simply allows to go forward inefficiently and at a much slower rate than what it could achieve. Many of these developers don't even seem to have the slightest idea of what the public wants and needs, they seem to look at everything through the developers goggles.

If its a developer working on his project, then its actually his view that shapes the end-product and its really a question of whether he would ever listen to anyone to go into a certain direction.

If its an open-source 'company' then the problem is the same, these companies are usually completely run by developers, from top to bottom developers doing everything. You can't run a company like that. Do you think the MS top consists of any developers or programmers for example? No way, they are not even close to the top and don't shape the future of their products either. Through a variety of methods they find out what people want most and then push their developers in that direction.

The brainstorm website was really an answer to this, to get the people's opinions involved in how the product is shaped. Unfortunately you can see the site filled with great ideas, so many votes for so long, yet they get ignored. Then you see some lame idea with a few votes and it gets tagged, "In development" with additional information from a developer or something that its already being worked on... well yaaay for the future then if it goes like this.

[Giant Speck]

Compiz is probably the most retarded method of trying to "convert" users to Ubuntu.

There are a hell of a lot better things about Ubuntu than useless eye candy.

[SLEEPER_V]

Compiz is probably the most retarded method of trying to "convert" users to Ubuntu.

There are a hell of a lot better things about Ubuntu than useless eye candy.

It could be a basis for comparison, not just THE reason to convert

[.Maleficus.]

Compiz is probably the most retarded method of trying to "convert" users to Ubuntu.

There are a hell of a lot better things about Ubuntu than useless eye candy.
+1. If you don't have a reason for him other than Compiz, do you have a leg to stand on?

[monsterstack]

Compiz is probably the most retarded method of trying to "convert" users to Ubuntu.

There are a hell of a lot better things about Ubuntu than useless eye candy.

As a reason to get people to convert, sure, retarded. But it looks to me like these guys were arguing about which operating system has the gaudiest special effects. Aero doesn't stand much of a chance in such a contest.


What? I can right-click?

:roll:

[Delever]

Arch Linux!

[stwschool]

Compiz is actually a legit reason to move. I find that things like expo (as a way of exposing multiple desktops) and scale improve my workflow, so in that regard it's not just a toy. And annotate is bloody handy in the classroom when showing kids stuff on the projector.

[starcannon]

Love it or hate it, Compiz is a pretty solid perk to using Linux.
User interfaces, eye candy, bells, and whistles, these are things that a very large portion of the human species really, really likes; and as Linux users, we happen to have the best of the lot. A bit more unification, some pro level artwork, and Linux will completely own the UI challenge. KDE is looking fantastic by the way, I am holding my breath a little, and expect KDE to be as solid as Gnome in the very near future (not trying to start a war, and I know that for may people KDE is stable, I probably wasn't doing it right).

Anyway; the:

Compiz is probably the most retarded method of trying to "convert" users to Ubuntu.

There are a hell of a lot better things about Ubuntu than useless eye candy.
argument is completely subjective, and is heavily dependent upon what the user's goal is. Sure Linux can do so much more, but what if the user only needs it to do word processing, email, chat, and web? In that scenario, having a beautiful gui is likely a pretty big bonus.

GL and HF

[Dimitriid]

Don't loose your friends over an OS dispute.



I think this is a generalized misconception, if your so called friendship is so fragile either one of the persons involved is willing to escalate to the point an OS becomes serious argument, there hardly was a friendship there to begin with.

The people I consider my friends are either aware that I know a lot more about computers than them or they have a tick enough skins to shrug it off when I call them idiots for defending the undefendable.

[monsterstack]

I think this is a generalized misconception, if your so called friendship is so fragile either one of the persons involved is willing to escalate to the point an OS becomes serious argument, there hardly was a friendship there to begin with.

The people I consider my friends are either aware that I know a lot more about computers than them or they have a tick enough skins to shrug it off when I call them idiots for defending the undefendable.

Why is it that whenever anyone posts a "I was having a disagreement with my friend..." thread someone always assumes that the friendship is totally doomed? Do you live in some sort of super fun happy land where nobody ever argues about anything, or do you really believe you're never wrong and anyone who dares to disagree is a fool? I can't work it out. I disagree passionately with my friends all the god-damned time. It doesn't affect the friendship at all.

[heroidi]

Friends don't fight about an OS but Enemies do that's how I ended up fighting physically with a windows guy normally it was he's fault

[boon4376]

If anything I think a lot of the eye-candy keeps people form ubuntu.. They see all the cool effects on youtube, go to try it for themselves, and they get nothing but a bunch of bugs, a system that refuses to boot, or crushed performance... "Ubuntu sucks" is what they walk away saying.

I don't know how easy it is these days to get all that eye candy working good, but a year ago I attempted it all and hit never ending walls of bugs I had to work around.

[Giant Speck]

but what if the user only needs it to do word processing, email, chat, and web? In that scenario, having a beautiful gui is likely a pretty big bonus.

If the user only needs to do word processing, email, chat, and web, then show them OpenOffice, Thunderbird, Pidgin, and Firefox before you show them Compiz. Show them the usability and functionality of the operating system before you show them that it can also be pleasing to the eye.

[monsterstack]

If the user only needs to do word processing, email, chat, and web, then show them OpenOffice, Thunderbird, Pidgin, and Firefox before you show them Compiz. Show them the usability and functionality of the operating system before you show them that it can also be pleasing to the eye.

Good advice. In fact, I wouldn't even show Compiz as a separate feature. I'd just leave it running whilst clicking through the applications. If the guy I'm showing them to says, "hang on, why is everything wobbling?" That'll be my cue to say, "Oh, that."


If anything I think a lot of the eye-candy keeps people form ubuntu.. They see all the cool effects on youtube, go to try it for themselves, and they get nothing but a bunch of bugs, a system that refuses to boot, or crushed performance... "Ubuntu sucks" is what they walk away saying.

I don't know how easy it is these days to get all that eye candy working good, but a year ago I attempted it all and hit never ending walls of bugs I had to work around.

Not really; if Compiz was buggy and difficult for most users, desktop effects wouldn't be enabled by default on the Live CD and the post-installation desktop. It has always worked pretty smoothly for me on a pretty wide-range of hardware. You were just unlucky. Not everybody in the world will have as frustrating experiences as you.

[starcannon]

If the user only needs to do word processing, email, chat, and web, then show them OpenOffice, Thunderbird, Pidgin, and Firefox before you show them Compiz. Show them the usability and functionality of the operating system before you show them that it can also be pleasing to the eye.

Well in my case, I don't evangelize Operating Systems anyway. I explain choices, and then give the person what they want. If I were to give a pitch for Linux, I would of course would pitch the whole package; excellent security, a plethora of productivity and general applications, synaptic package manager, and of course, the eye candy. /shrug, I'm not trying to sell you on compiz, but I do think it is a valuable part of the Ubuntu experience for a majority of users.

[Swarms]

:roll:

Please explain what you mean, I am truly intrigued.

[monsterstack]

Please explain what you mean, I am truly intrigued.

Does your Mac have a Whoosh button?

[chucky chuckaluck]

i can't imagine anyone seeing wobbly windows not being an instant convert.

[Swarms]

Does your Mac have a Whoosh button?

Haha, no what is that? :lolflag:

On a sidenote:

Every major OS has its ups and downs, and people should use what they prefer instead of people telling what is better and what sucks... If Ubuntu improves, it's features will speak of itself. That is atleast the diplomatic approach.

[collinp]

i can't imagine anyone seeing wobbly windows not being an instant convert.

Or that infinitely awesome cube.

[boon4376]

Not really; if Compiz was buggy and difficult for most users, desktop effects wouldn't be enabled by default on the Live CD and the post-installation desktop. It has always worked pretty smoothly for me on a pretty wide-range of hardware. You were just unlucky. Not everybody in the world will have as frustrating experiences as you.

I had pretty mainstream hardware, I cant imagine it was THAT rare of a situation... things would also work fine on a live CD and refuse to work after a real install... which was mind boggling (such as screen resolution being perfect on a live CD, but after a real install would go past 1024x768 )

[JordyD]

If he loves Vista, Ubuntu may not be for him.

Don't loose your friends over an OS dispute.

Linux is more powerful and versatile than Windows, but Windows has more apps if you can pay for them, or don't mind using pirated software.

Well, he didn't force it on him. He showed him Ubuntu's capabilities, and eventually his friend agreed that Ubuntu was not, in fact, "crap".

There would be a problem if instead of his friend asking to borrow the 9.04 CD, he had forced it on him.

[monsterstack]

Or that infinitely awesome cube.

I know what you mean. Here's a screenshot of boring old Bash 3:


user@host:~$

And running as root:


root@host:~#

Which is so totally lame when compared to the AWESOMENESS that is BASH 4.0!!!!


http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww177/stuffandstuffand/zomg.png
:guitar::guitar::guitar::guitar::guitar::guitar: :guitar:

WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!elevent yone

[Delever]

Next compiz feature: rotating cube upside down. Why I can't do that? Oh wait... seriously - why not?

Damn Xorg.

[starcannon]

Next compiz feature: rotating cube upside down. Why I can't do that? Oh wait... seriously - why not?

Damn Xorg.
Because of gravity, all the contents would fall out if you rotated it upside down, duh! :lolflag:

[Gizenshya]

Good advice. In fact, I wouldn't even show Compiz as a separate feature. I'd just leave it running whilst clicking through the applications. If the guy I'm showing them to says, "hang on, why is everything wobbling?" That'll be my cue to say, "Oh, that."

I've done that exact same thing while not realizing it. I usually forget that I'm not on Faildows. For instance, last semester I was on my computer showing a friend a video, and I moved a window to talk about something. I glanced back and he looked like he had seen a ghost, and was like "... wait, do that again!" I was like huh? then he was like "the window! move it back!" then I realized what was going on, and gave him the tour of Ubuntu. He was hooked, and that very night I helped him install Ubuntu through wubi and to this day he has not booted to Windows since. :)

He doesn't play video games like I do, so he really has no reason to go back. And he can get to all his old windows files anyway (which we backed up first anyway, of course).

[Giant Speck]

http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww177/stuffandstuffand/zomg.png


On an unrelated note, what is that program on the right? It looks kind of like Inkscape but not...

[monsterstack]

On an unrelated note, what is that program on the right? It looks kind of like Inkscape but not...

It's called mtpaint ("http://mtpaint.sourceforge.net/) [sourceforge.net], and it's pretty awesome. It's a very simple paint programme, but it has layers, channels and masks, effects, and what have you. Perfect for when using the Gimp or Photoshop are overkill, and when mspaint or tuxpaint don't quite cut it. It's in Ubuntu repositories or grab the exe for Windows from the sourceforge project site.

[toupeiro]

The people I tend to have these sorts of debates with are pretty serious power users, who run their windows machines ragged, as I used to. So, I asked them, in 4 years time how many re-images have you had to do? The average was 2, but some had to re-image once a year. These are very good users, who have good practices, but do a great deal more with their machines than web browsing, email, and the occasional game. I've run a linux machine, without re-imaging, one month shy of 4 years. The only reason it was not 4 is because I did an AMD -> Intel machine upgrade. This machine did development database work, web hosting, content streaming, coding, gaming, and a number of other roles. Simply put, Linux can take the abuse of a power user far better than windows, and can surf the web and read email perfectly well and easily.

It all comes down to personal preference whether to run linux or windows. Linux has more technical merit in this persons opinion.

[swoll1980]

If the user only needs to do word processing, email, chat, and web, then show them OpenOffice, Thunderbird, Pidgin, and Firefox before you show them Compiz. Show them the usability and functionality of the operating system before you show them that it can also be pleasing to the eye.

Apple, and Microsoft spend millions of dollars developing, "attractive" UIs. There is a reason for this. Most people won't even try something if it's not pleasing to the eye. You know that old adage "Don't judge a book by it's cover"? Well if people never judged things by the way they look, that adage wouldn't exist. I know it's hard for you to imagine, but people that aren't geeks only care about what it looks like, and if they can go on myspace with it.

[Viva]

Some of you need to accept that eye candy plays a big part in attracting users. You might say compiz is useless, but some of the features are extremely useful for even power users and whether you like it or not, eye candy is a big attraction for normal users. If a newbie can do everything on ubuntu that he can do on windows and in an environment with more eye candy, he'll choose ubuntu. If you're not a noob, don't try to act like one.

[Swarms]

I agree that the visuals are very important, sometimes Compiz is just too cheap in its expression.

Like:
http://lh3.google.com/goldhck/R6UMm8zKDII/AAAAAAAAAb0/KEOzStIxbNw/wm-High%20Spoiler.jpg

I hope Clutter, or mutter or what is is called will change that.