Which laptop would you choose?

[Pasdar]

Which of these two laptops would you choose, and why?

MSI EX630-011NL 16 Inch (1366x768)

http://rvcomputers.nl/images/image121.jpg

CPU: AMD Athlon X2 QL-62
MEM: 4GB DDR2
Vid: GeForce 9300M GS, 256 MB
HD: 250GB
Webcam: 2MP
Video out: D-Sub (VGA), HDMI
WLAN: 802.11b, 802.11g, 802.11n
Bluetooth: Yes, 2.0
Weight: 2,7 kg
Warranty: 2 Years
Price: €553 or $772


Acer Aspire 5520G-504G25Mi 15,4 Inch (1280x800)

http://www.apdv.nl/img/icecat/highpic/2046549-232.jpg

CPU: AMD Turion 64 X2 TL-60
MEM: 4GB DDR2
Vid: GeForce 8600M GS, 512MB
HD: 250GB
Webcam: 0.3MP
Video out: D-Sub (VGA), DVI-D, S-Video
WLAN: 802.11b, 802.11g
Bluetooth: No
Weight: 2.75kg
Warranty: 1 Year
Price: €419,30 or $585


They both have their advantages and disadvantages of course.

[Kingsley]

It's a bit of a hard choice. The MSI has nicer specs, but I know from personal experience that Acer has good customer support.

[koleoptero]

The MSI one because:

It has better specs (GFX card)
It looks much better (eyecandy is important in the long run)
It has a full keyboard :o
It has bluetooth and HDMI output, you can use it for a media center if you ever replace it in the future.
I like MSI more than ACER (but that's just me I think)

[gn2]

I wouldn't buy either of those because of the CPU and GPU.

[Pasdar]

It's a bit of a hard choice. The MSI has nicer specs, but I know from personal experience that Acer has good customer support.

I don't have experience with either of the brands.


The MSI one because:

It has better specs (GFX card)
It looks much better (eyecandy is important in the long run)
It has a full keyboard :o
It has bluetooth and HDMI output, you can use it for a media center if you ever replace it in the future.
I like MSI more than ACER (but that's just me I think)

1. The GFX card of the Acer is actually better, check out these benchmarks:

MSI:
Crysis - CPU Benchmark: - Low 1024x768: 25.9 fps
Doom 3: - Ultra 1024x768: 53.6 fps
F.E.A.R.: - GPU: max, CPU: max 1024x768: 23 fps
http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-9300M-GS.9452.0.html

Acer:
Crysis - CPU Benchmark: - Low 1024x768: 38.11 fps
Doom 3: - Ultra 1024x768: 123.6 fps
F.E.A.R.: - GPU: max, CPU: max 1024x768: 68 fps
http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-8600M-GS.3707.0.html

However, I'm a casual gamer and since I bought a Nintendo WII, I don't play games on the PC/laptop anymore. But I would still like games to be functioning on it.

2. It does look better, but the Acer isn't ugly either.

3. I actually never use the numpad :D

4. Those are good additions, especially if you want to sell it again. However, I don't even have an HD TV, and the addition of an S-Video connection on the Acer is an advantage for me too. How would I go about connecting this thing to my old TV? :D It has Composite, scart, Svideo, coax...


I wouldn't buy either of those because of the CPU and GPU.

What do you mean? You'd go with a faster one or a different brand? I would definitely not get an Intel CPU or GPU, my experience with AMD on laptops and normal PCs is excellent. Much more juice with less money. Their GPU sux horribly... as for ATI GFX... the problem with ATI is that even though they rock NVIDIA on windows platform, they don't have good drivers for Linux, they just suck on linux because of this, this was the reason I sold my previous laptop...(im not sure how good the open source drivers are, but I read many things about it), I just want a properly functioning GPU on linux with a team working on the drivers... getting better, etc. I'm not going to buy an ATI GPU until there are some good drivers for it.

[The Toxic Mite]

I would buy the MSI one, because it looks a lot better than the Acer one.

And its spec is nicer :)

[Hobgoblin]

What do you mean? You'd go with a faster one or a different brand?

Nvidia laptop GPUs have a recent history of burning out, generally just as the warranty runs out.

[ubudog]

MSI. Nicer specs.

[ubudog]

Looks nicer too.

[Pasdar]

The MSI only has three disadvantages to it compared to the Acer one:
1. The GPU is weaker.
2. It doesn't have S-video out.
3. Cost 134 euro (187 USD) more.

On the other hand:
1. It has a faster CPU.
2. Better webcam.
3. HDMI out. (I will not be using it)
4. Draft N wireless. (I will not be using it)
5. Has bluetooth.
6. Weighs half a kg (1.1 lbs) less.
7. Heigher resolution.
8. Is 0.6 inch larger (but still manages to weigh less)

[Mehall]

my laptop is not a million miles away from the Acer, and I love it.

(My graphics card is a fair bit worse. Worse still than the MSI, but it does what I need it to.)

Here's my specs:

http://www.pclaunches.com/entry_images/0907/17/hp_g6000.jpg

(Apologies for size)

HP G6062ea

CPU: AMD Turion 64 X2 TL-57 1.9GHz
MEM: 2GB DDR2
Vid: GeForce 7000M
HD: 120GB
Webcam: erm... no clue as to what spec it is.
Video out: D-Sub (VGA), S-Video
WLAN: 802.11b, 802.11g
Bluetooth: No
Price: Was £349 when bought, now discontinued.


My only issue with it is the case, which is not the best design (HPs current raneg are much better)

Having had fantastic time with my HP, and knowing the Acer has had better benchmarks, I would probably pick it as it seems more like a direct upgrade from my current one, albeit a different vendor.

[dhtseany]

It's a bit of a hard choice. The MSI has nicer specs, but I know from personal experience that Acer has good customer support.

Not to try and start a fight, but are you kidding me? Acer has some of the worst customer service out there, second only to eMachines. I deal with all the major (and some minor) PC companies on a daily basis with my business. If you want legitimate customer support, you should be looking into Dell, HP, or Sony.

Just want the guy to know what to expect if it ever breaks.

Peace
Sean

[koleoptero]

Well there are simple converters from vga to video out so you won't have trouble connecting whatever laptop to your TV. :)

As for the better performance of the graphics cards... Oh well...

[Martin Marshalek]

I'd go with the Acer because both are an improvement over my current laptop (plus I screwed up the paint on the area around the keyboard so, if I can live with that, looks aren't an issue). Besides, for less money the Acer has double the GPU memory.

In fact my comp is just under Mehall's (its the Compaq version) but the paint where you rest your hands when typing is a scream.

[infestor]

i wouldnt choose acer because -single reason- it is very crappy when it comes to quality. my close friend had one and it went to the service thrice in a year. still having problems.

[Dougie187]

I don't think I would buy either of them. I have sort of been on a thinkpad kick lately though.

Dell does tend to have good customer service, and it's really easy to get replacement parts if you know how to explain your problem with them. I have never dealt with either of MSI or Acer for customer service.

Either way, I would say just rate what you want to use it for, and try to figure which fits what you NEED the best and then also look at price if that's a factor.

[Pasdar]

Nvidia laptop GPUs have a recent history of burning out, generally just as the warranty runs out.

Incidentally the MSI has 2 year warranty and Acer has one year.


my laptop is not a million miles away from the Acer, and I love it.

(My graphics card is a fair bit worse. Worse still than the MSI, but it does what I need it to.)

Here's my specs:

(Apologies for size)

HP G6062ea

CPU: AMD Turion 64 X2 TL-57 1.9GHz
MEM: 2GB DDR2
Vid: GeForce 7000M
HD: 120GB
Webcam: erm... no clue as to what spec it is.
Video out: D-Sub (VGA), S-Video
WLAN: 802.11b, 802.11g
Bluetooth: No
Price: Was £349 when bought, now discontinued.


My only issue with it is the case, which is not the best design (HPs current raneg are much better)

Having had fantastic time with my HP, and knowing the Acer has had better benchmarks, I would probably pick it as it seems more like a direct upgrade from my current one, albeit a different vendor.

I've heard a lot of horror stories about HP, heh... my own experience with their printers is also horrible. I guess you're one of the lucky ones. :D

Actually I don't know what I'm whining about, my previous GPU ATI 3470 is weaker than the 9300M GS (of the MSI). The laptop was 57 euro (80 USD) more expensive than the MSI too. I sold it for 40 USD more than the MSI, hehe. :D

I'm very much leaning toward MSI.

The Acer might be very attractive because of its faster videocard... but still... the MSI has too many things that are better and the possibility that I can sell it quite well in a year for a good price is high. Its an easily sellable laptop I think.

[Pasdar]

I don't think I would buy either of them. I have sort of been on a thinkpad kick lately though.
The problem with thinkpad is that they're way too weak for the price you pay for them.

For example some of their fastest most expensive laptops would still perform poorly compared to the two laptops I posted. Even their value line are bad, 500 USD for a Intel T3400 CPU, Intel GMA GPU, 3GB... thats just horrible...


Dell does tend to have good customer service, and it's really easy to get replacement parts if you know how to explain your problem with them. I have never dealt with either of MSI or Acer for customer service.
Dell is in the same category as Sony... just way too expensive for what you get in return... totally not worth the money if you ask me. I'm not rich and even if I were rich I don't like to get ripped off.

[steveneddy]

Personally I would go to System76.com (http://www.system76.com/) and see what they have to offer.

We use System76 laptops (http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=28) in our house (and on the road) and find them an incomparable value.

They already come with Ubuntu installed so you KNOW the hardware is compatible.

[Pasdar]

Personally I would go to System76.com (http://www.system76.com/) and see what they have to offer.

We use System76 laptops (http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=28) in our house (and on the road) and find them an incomparable value.

They already come with Ubuntu installed so you KNOW the hardware is compatible.

A bit too expensive unfortunately, the following laptop:
http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=86
with two changes to make it an equivalent of what I have posted costs: $864, that's
MSI: $772 ($92 difference)
Acer: $585 ($279 difference)

Now if they actually let me choose the CPU (I want an AMD) I would really consider buying from them.

[Bart_D]

A bit too expensive unfortunately, the following laptop:
http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=86
with two changes to make it an equivalent of what I have posted costs: $864, that's
MSI: $772 ($92 difference)
Acer: $585 ($279 difference)

Now if they actually let me choose the CPU (I want an AMD) I would really consider buying from them.

You get what you pay for.

[DownTown22]

I'd go with the MSI as well. I've been using nVidia graphics for quite a while, and have never had a problem with the GPU burning out.

I've never really been a big fan of Acer computers (the exception is their monitors, which I am a fan of!).

And the HP's....I know a lot of people who have HP computers (desktop and laptop) and they seem to be full of problems (both Windows and Linux), typically hardware related.

Now, if you could find a comparable Asus laptop, I'd say go with that! I have an Asus M51Sn (http://ca.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=5&l2=132&l3=607&l4=0&model=2026&modelmenu=1) and I couldn't be happier. I run all my games on it (well, mainly Fallout 3) without any issues and everything else gets done on Ubuntu - again, no problems. Graphics card, webcam and wireless and work good!

[Pasdar]

You get what you pay for.

You can't really say that, it has equivalent hardware and even runs a free OS. How do you justify such a price difference?


I'd go with the MSI as well. I've been using nVidia graphics for quite a while, and have never had a problem with the GPU burning out.

I've never really been a big fan of Acer computers (the exception is their monitors, which I am a fan of!).

And the HP's....I know a lot of people who have HP computers (desktop and laptop) and they seem to be full of problems (both Windows and Linux), typically hardware related.

Now, if you could find a comparable Asus laptop, I'd say go with that! I have an Asus M51Sn (http://ca.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=5&l2=132&l3=607&l4=0&model=2026&modelmenu=1) and I couldn't be happier. I run all my games on it (well, mainly Fallout 3) without any issues and everything else gets done on Ubuntu - again, no problems. Graphics card, webcam and wireless and work good!

ASUS is the best if one is willing to pay just a bit more for good specs, my previous laptop was ASUS. For equivalent price I can get an ASUS with ATI 3200 card. That's just not good enough. Even with 150 USD more the card is still ATI 3200. :-/

My ASUS looked exactly like yours. What I didn't like about it is that one day was enough to get it filled with fingerprints all over... it was just too shiny... also due to the touchpad being in the middle, sometimes my palm would hit it while typing, making the cursor end up somewhere else... but whatever I would do, the laptop just never got warm, lol.... another issue was that those hinges easilly open, you can simply pull them up... at least on mine. also note the bluetooth light... mine had that light too even though I didnt even have bluetooth in it.

[DownTown22]

Yes...I have that problem with the touchpad as well.

In Windows, I typically just turn it off as I use a mouse most of the time.

In Ubuntu, I got a script (not sure where I got it from though) that turns the touchpad off while typing.

[cprofitt]

The problem with thinkpad is that they're way too weak for the price you pay for them.

For example some of their fastest most expensive laptops would still perform poorly compared to the two laptops I posted. Even their value line are bad, 500 USD for a Intel T3400 CPU, Intel GMA GPU, 3GB... thats just horrible...


Dell is in the same category as Sony... just way too expensive for what you get in return... totally not worth the money if you ask me. I'm not rich and even if I were rich I don't like to get ripped off.

Lenovo laptops are very competitively priced... you just have to take advantage of buying them directly from the Lenovo site.

[-=hazard=-]

Definitely the first one!

[JordyD]

Personally I would go to System76.com (http://www.system76.com/) and see what they have to offer.

We use System76 laptops (http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=28) in our house (and on the road) and find them an incomparable value.

They already come with Ubuntu installed so you KNOW the hardware is compatible.

Since you can pretty much tweak Linux to your heart's content, why don't manufacturers like Dell and System76 make Dellbuntu and Ubuntu76? Especially when it comes to eye-candy, since Ubuntu's default is... OK. I actually do and apt-get install shiki-colors gnome-colors arc-colors every time I install. (I get the PPA first, of course)

Anyways, about the laptops. I would get the cheaper one. It's shinier (yes, that's important to me) and I don't really need that much power in my laptops.

[khelben1979]

If I would choose I would go for the MSI. There are several reasons, but one major reason is: the keyboard. Seems to be much better.

Other than that, I would never buy it even if I had the money today. Too much money for hardware which really isn't enough.

[JordyD]

You can't really say that, it has equivalent hardware and even runs a free OS. How do you justify such a price difference?

Perhaps he's referring to the quality of the hardware, rather than their specs. Take for instance two coffee shops. Dunkin' Donuts/Dell and Starbucks/System76 might both sell a Mocha Latte/2.5 GHz CPU, and maybe Starbucks' Latte is priced more, but Dunkin' Donuts' cups are crap and your Latte always ends up on your pants. Plus, Starbucks' Latte is tastier. Would you go for Starbucks or Dunkin' Donuts?

EDIT: Plus, he says since they come with Ubuntu, you KNOW the hardware is compatible. Pretty much the same deal with Apple's Mac, you KNOW OS X and your computer are compatible, even though it's higher priced. Granted, you can't easily get OS X on hardware that's not Apple-sanctioned, whereas you can get Ubuntu on anything that's Linus-sanctioned (the kernel supports, not Linus himself), which is a lot.

[JordyD]

Personally I would go to System76.com (http://www.system76.com/) and see what they have to offer.

We use System76 laptops (http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=28) in our house (and on the road) and find them an incomparable value.

They already come with Ubuntu installed so you KNOW the hardware is compatible.

OT: How much battery life do those things get? That's always important to me.

[gn2]

What do you mean? You'd go with a faster one or a different brand?

I would go for a Core 2 Duo teamed with an Intel graphics adapter.
The reason is that it will run cooler and therefore quieter.

[Gizenshya]

I'll never buy Dell or HP again. They have way too much overhead which drives up the cost of their computers. So, higher prices for the same equipment. And I hate their (well, HP's) customer support. I was on the phone with HP tech support for over an hour last week (for a family member's computer). They didn't ship it with the OS disc (which is apparently what HP and Dell do recently), and wanted $25-$30 to ship the "free" OS disc (free? I think not. The **** was paid for, but NOT delivered, tyvm.) And the reason for the range in price is because they didn't even know how much it would cost. wtf? But anyway, I said screw that,is there another option? They said yep, direct download from the support site. I said sweet, lets do it. After about half an hour of explanation and condescension from an arrogant Indian who butchered the english language almost beyond recognition we find out that... ... there NEVER WAS the ability to download the disc from the support site, or anywhere else for that matter. Once he found out his error, he promptly transfered me to a dead line. Ohh, and I forgot. All that was after he initially DENIED support for the computer, which has MONTHS left on its warranty. Yeah, not a chance in hell of me doing business with them again. I've never used Dell's customer support. But I don't like their products or prices. Same goes for Sony.

IBM's Thinkpads are overpriced... BUT the things are friggin indestructible. Very good quality and I've never had a chance to ever talk with their customer support.... because I've never had a problem with them at all! (weird, eh?). The ones I have are now ancient, but still run like champs. They just won't die! The batteries are long gone, but that is to be expected for their age. No matter the battery quality, they only last 2-3 years at the most. Other than specialty laptops like the "Toughbooks," Thinkpads are the best quality mainstream laptops I've seen, and they are well in first.

OK, sorry for the rant...

I would get the Acer. 1. I love Acer. I've never used their customer support, though. But, as with the thinkpads, I've never needed to.

The MSI has a faster CPU... but only by about 4%, which is negligible, IMO. And the Acer's GPU is far more powerful. (another source (http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=600&card2=533)). Although I doubt it will be as extreme as the benchmark links posted earlier, because I bet the CPU bottleneck will kick in before it reaches its potential.

Lack of bluetooth wouldn't matter to me much, because I'm used to just taking out the memory card in my phone t add and remove music/pics or whatever anyway. Or I just transfer with other phones. Stuff like BlueProximity would be interesting, though (not to mention the bragging rights). You could always add a USB one, though (no idea about compatibility). And I would much rather spend a little bit on one of those than spend a LOT for a weaker computer. Gaming on it would be a definite plus.

The MSI doesn't have DVI. I like muh DVI. It is easy to convert DVI to VGA, but not practical to convert VGA to DVI. Why not DVI instead of VGA on the MSI? Seems like a poor decision. And HDMI? Well... unless it has Blu-Ray, then I wouldn't care. And even if it did... I doubt the GPU would be able to handle it. The Acer would probably have a better battery life because the smaller screen. Bigger screens suck energy like leaches.

The MSI looks like it is built more solidly... but it wouldn't be worth the huge difference in price for that... and (again :P ) while getting a weaker computer.

[Pasdar]

I would go for a Core 2 Duo teamed with an Intel graphics adapter.
The reason is that it will run cooler and therefore quieter.

And you think that because why? My previous laptop was an ASUS X56 with AMD Turion RM-70 with ATI Radeon 3470, I remember until a month after buying it I would put my ear on it to hear if there was any ventilator in it at all. I was terrified at the thought that maybe the ventilator was broken, because there was just no sound coming out of the laptop (seriously)... the silence scared me. After that I got used to it, the laptop just didn't make any sound. Similarly the laptop would stay cool even after having used it 10 hours straight (no joke). This is one thing I would brag about a lot to everyone at uni. The laptop itself was cold, but if you held your hand in front of the ventilator exit you would feel the warm air coming out of it.

I've also had a laptop with Intel Core 2 and currently my wife has an HP artist edition with Intel Core 2, both of them... they make crazy ventilator sound and become so hot that you can not touch them in certain places. One has Intel GPU, the other NVIDIA, but I don't think the CPU's make much heat unless you really stress them.

However, judging by the fact that you would actually consider having an Intel GPU I'm sure you never do anything on your laptop/PC that requires any juice. Just run basic apps.

I really don't think you've tried a new gen AMD CPU's.

[Pasdar]

I'll never buy Dell or HP again. They have way too much overhead which drives up the cost of their computers. So, higher prices for the same equipment. And I hate their (well, HP's) customer support. I was on the phone with HP tech support for over an hour last week (for a family member's computer). They didn't ship it with the OS disc (which is apparently what HP and Dell do recently), and wanted $25-$30 to ship the "free" OS disc (free? I think not. The **** was paid for, but NOT delivered, tyvm.) And the reason for the range in price is because they didn't even know how much it would cost. wtf? But anyway, I said screw that,is there another option? They said yep, direct download from the support site. I said sweet, lets do it. After about half an hour of explanation and condescension from an arrogant Indian who butchered the english language almost beyond recognition we find out that... ... there NEVER WAS the ability to download the disc from the support site, or anywhere else for that matter. Once he found out his error, he promptly transfered me to a dead line. Ohh, and I forgot. All that was after he initially DENIED support for the computer, which has MONTHS left on its warranty. Yeah, not a chance in hell of me doing business with them again. I've never used Dell's customer support. But I don't like their products or prices. Same goes for Sony.

IBM's Thinkpads are overpriced... BUT the things are friggin indestructible. Very good quality and I've never had a chance to ever talk with their customer support.... because I've never had a problem with them at all! (weird, eh?). The ones I have are now ancient, but still run like champs. They just won't die! The batteries are long gone, but that is to be expected for their age. No matter the battery quality, they only last 2-3 years at the most. Other than specialty laptops like the "Toughbooks," Thinkpads are the best quality mainstream laptops I've seen, and they are well in first.

OK, sorry for the rant...

I would get the Acer. 1. I love Acer. I've never used their customer support, though. But, as with the thinkpads, I've never needed to.

The MSI has a faster CPU... but only by about 4%, which is negligible, IMO. And the Acer's GPU is far more powerful. (another source (http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=600&card2=533)). Although I doubt it will be as extreme as the benchmark links posted earlier, because I bet the CPU bottleneck will kick in before it reaches its potential.

Lack of bluetooth wouldn't matter to me much, because I'm used to just taking out the memory card in my phone t add and remove music/pics or whatever anyway. Or I just transfer with other phones. Stuff like BlueProximity would be interesting, though (not to mention the bragging rights). You could always add a USB one, though (no idea about compatibility). And I would much rather spend a little bit on one of those than spend a LOT for a weaker computer. Gaming on it would be a definite plus.

The MSI doesn't have DVI. I like muh DVI. It is easy to convert DVI to VGA, but not practical to convert VGA to DVI. Why not DVI instead of VGA on the MSI? Seems like a poor decision. And HDMI? Well... unless it has Blu-Ray, then I wouldn't care. And even if it did... I doubt the GPU would be able to handle it. The Acer would probably have a better battery life because the smaller screen. Bigger screens suck energy like leaches.

The MSI looks like it is built more solidly... but it wouldn't be worth the huge difference in price for that... and (again :P ) while getting a weaker computer.

Yeah, the Internet is really filled with horror stories about HP. They are cheap, but I will not make the mistake of getting stuck in that hole, lol. Plus my wife has an HP Artist edition and its just... uhhgg... so many issues... just sux... it feels expensive in your hands, it looks expensive and nice... you use it and then you find a million things wrong with it.

I agree with most of the points you made, HOWEVER:
1. Its debatable how much faster the QL-62 (HyperTransport: 1800 Mhz) is from the TL-60 (HyperTransport: 900 Mhz), I'm not sure of what percentage to put on that, but I guess just about the same, about 5% difference.
2. Since I'm not really a gamer and would just like my apps to function as fast as possible, I think having that 5% more in CPU is more valuable than getting let's say 30-40% more GFX power.
3. The choice for either VGA or DVI from the perspective of the manufacturer, if they had to choose between the two, its safer to choose VGA really... everything has VGA support, even the latest things that get released always have an extra cable for VGA, however... a VGA appliance never has DVI support... you have to go out and buy one... that's from the perspective of the manufacturer...

meh... don't know what to buy anymore, lol...

[gn2]

And you think that because why?

However, judging by the fact that you would actually consider having an Intel GPU I'm sure you never do anything on your laptop/PC that requires any juice. Just run basic apps.

I really don't think you've tried a new gen AMD CPU's.

The TDP of a Turion CPU and an Nvidia GPU is 57w, a C2D CPU and an Intel GPU is 41w.
For me silence is golden, my T5450 C2D Asus F9E is extremely quiet.
Do next Gen AMD CPUs come in laptops with Intel graphics adapters?
For me the main attraction of the Intel graphics adapter is the TDP.

I'm a silent computing enthusiast, your preferences may well result in different hardware choices, and that's fine. :)

[steveneddy]

OT: How much battery life do those things get? That's always important to me.

I use a System76 laptop for the last 2.5 years and the battery is still going strong.

[steveneddy]

You get what you pay for.

Agreed.

Personally I want a laptop that runs Linux and there is no question that it runs Linux because I buy it with the OS that I prefer.

This 2.5 yr old System76 laptop has been through every Ubuntu release since Edgy up to Hardy and there have been zero hardware compatibility issues.

I don't have time to play with hardware on my laptop. I make my living with my laptop and I need it to work right now without constantly tweaking for performance.

Intel Core 2 Duo, 2 Gig RAM and Nvidia video

Runs cooler and faster than AMD anything and reliability is second to none.

Every AMD processor PC that I have owned has eventually died.

I currently own two Intel laptops and three Intel desktops that run full time 24/7 at home/office and after the oldest being over 10 years old with NO ISSUES, I would say that Intel is the hands down winner here.

Besides, You buy from System76 and you are supporting the Community.

This is my .02

[rolleander]

Of the two, I'd choose the MSI over the Acer. I like Acer and have never had much experience with MSI so I don't know how their support is, but the fact that it has a 2-year Warranty bodes well for their support. That is a good sign of standing behind one's product. I am a TV repair technician and am familiar with customer service when it comes to warranties - it doesn't mean that it won't break - but it usually means that they will darn well take care of you if it does - remember - with electronics, nothing is infallable. I've seen electronic equipment break that people had paid 10-20k for. The longer warranty is definately worth the extra amount.

[Pasdar]

The TDP of a Turion CPU and an Nvidia GPU is 57w, a C2D CPU and an Intel GPU is 41w.
For me silence is golden, my T5450 C2D Asus F9E is extremely quiet.
Do next Gen AMD CPUs come in laptops with Intel graphics adapters?
For me the main attraction of the Intel graphics adapter is the TDP.

I'm a silent computing enthusiast, your preferences may well result in different hardware choices, and that's fine. :)

Here I looked up the actual figures for you:
TDP:
AMD TL-60 2 Ghz: 31 W
AMD QL-62 2 Ghz: 35 W
Intel T5450 1.6 Ghz: 35 W

You can't really compare a full fledged videocard of NVIDIA or ATI to a 'desktop card' of Intel. It's like comparing the fuel consumption of a ferrari with that of a fiat and expecting it to be the same. However, even when on the NVIDIA or ATI you can make it run slower (at about the same speed of the Intel) so the power consumption stays as low.

Also AMD has a line of embedded GPUs too.

[gn2]

If you looked up the TDP of the mobile Nvidia GPUs in your OP you would have found that the figure is 32w, which has to be added to the TDP of the CPU.
An Intel GPU like the one in my F9E is 6w.
So the total is significantly less.

Also the means by which AMD and Intel determine TDP isn't the same.
Intel run cooler in normal use in my experience.
I would not buy a laptop with an Nvidia or ATI GPU because the last one I had sounded like a vacuum cleaner.

The "next gen" AMD CPUs are still 65nm, Intel have moved on with their current range of mobile CPUs which are 45nm 25w TDP, so AMD are still playing catch-up.
Like I said before, your selection criteria may produce different results to mine :)

[Pasdar]

If you looked up the TDP of the mobile Nvidia GPUs in your OP you would have found that the figure is 32w, which has to be added to the TDP of the CPU.
An Intel GPU like the one in my F9E is 6w.
So the total is significantly less.

Also the means by which AMD and Intel determine TDP isn't the same.
Intel run cooler in normal use in my experience.
I would not buy a laptop with an Nvidia or ATI GPU because the last one I had sounded like a vacuum cleaner.
Was it by any chance also an expensive ASUS or was a cheap laptop you're comparing to your current ASUS? That matter a lot you know.


The "next gen" AMD CPUs are still 65nm, Intel have moved on with their current range of mobile CPUs which are 45nm 25w TDP, so AMD are still playing catch-up.
Like I said before, your selection criteria may produce different results to mine :)
If we are talking about top of the line CPU laptops we would have to look at the price range 2500 USD and more. Again, judging by the type of GPU you select, you are not the type that would go to that range, so I don't know why you would even want to bring up fast/latest CPUs.

AMD Tigris, 45nm, in a year we'll have a 4 core CPU at 45nm too and a year later 4 core with 32nm.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/04/4-15-09amdmap.jpg

[note32]

SONY VAIO!!!!!!!!!! Runs Ubuntu like it was ment for it!:p

[Glucklich]

I'd choose the Acer. Cheaper, more dedicated graphics, couldn't care less about the keyboard, how it looks or the webcam. As for the assistance... as long as they fix it, I don't care how long they take. And I certainly don't need them to come to my house, pick it up and drop it off (that costs money, one way or the other)... as long as they phone me when the repair is done, I'm cool with it. After all, that's why you also have a desktop.

[gn2]

Was it by any chance also an expensive ASUS or was a cheap laptop you're comparing to your current ASUS?

The Asus F9E I currently have wasn't expensive.
The Nvidia equipped laptop was much more expensive and it was a Medion.

[Pasdar]

The Asus F9E I currently have wasn't expensive.
The Nvidia equipped laptop was much more expensive and it was a Medion.

ASUS is considered one of best laptop brands, by many its considered 'the best', don't you think its unfair to compare it to a laptop from "medion"... i haven't even heard of that brand... according to the internet its a relatively small German company...

[gn2]

Brand is irrelevant, it's just a badge.
All laptops are manufactured by other companies to order.
Even Apple laptops get built in the same factory as Dell laptops.

[MasterNetra]

I would probably choose Acer, Main Mainly because I do like to game even though I got a overcharged crap lab top through school (with only real advantage is its payed through tuition) and I would be lucky if I could play the original halo for more then 15 min before my intel GPU overheats and the driver fails (does this on all OS's though Vista (one of its few useful aspects) makes several attempts at recovering the driver before failing. (Which is helpful because usually the game can be killed after recovery). It saddens me that Ubuntu in all of its glory does not do this. (Wish it did though)

[DownTown22]

Brand is irrelevant, it's just a badge.
All laptops are manufactured by other companies to order.
Even Apple laptops get built in the same factory as Dell laptops.

Brand is not irrelevant.
That usually tells you what components are inside.

[gn2]

Brand is not irrelevant.
That usually tells you what components are inside.

We're discussing laptops.
Laptop brand is no guarantee of quality of manufacture because the manufacture is subcontracted out by the brand name to specialist manufacturing companies.
The main difference the brand name makes is in the after sales service.
The main components inside laptops, the CPU, RAM, GPU, HDD etc are supplied to the factory and assembled.
The same quality of parts are fitted in nearly all brands of laptops.

A major factor in determining laptop service life is heat.
The cooler the components run the longer the laptop is likely to last.
Laptops with discrete graphics cards, e.g. Nvidia or ATI are more likely to fail than those without.

[Pasdar]

Brand is irrelevant, it's just a badge.
All laptops are manufactured by other companies to order.
It is relevant to the degree that you expect the laptop to be built to the level of care and quality that they release under that specific brand. For example you should not expect the same quality from HP as with Compaq (both ****** by the way), even though they are both owned by the by same corporation.

Even when the two laptops from two different brands have the exact same hardware, you will not get the same quality laptop.

Your Core 2 might be doing great on your ASUS, but on my top of the line HP it becomes so hot im afraid it will burn down the laptop. In certain places its so hot it stings when you touch it. According to HP the laptop is functioning correctly and warmth is to be expected, lol.

Other differences include:
* Recent news that HP, Apple was/are on Intel payroll to only sell only Intel CPU's in their laptops.
* Differences in design.
* Quality difference of material used to house the hardware.
* Choice of certain hardware components that are generally not mentioned in specifications.
* etc

One brand might decide heat and sound are of highest importance, another brand might decide its important to have VGA out on all their laptops while another might decide no one uses it anymore.


Even Apple laptops get built in the same factory as Dell laptops.
Apple laptops are manufactured and sent from China, the same factories that put Acer laptops together. Apple even has a press release on their site in reaction to news that people at that manufacturing plants are treated badly. Saying they did an inspection and everything was up to standards.

[gn2]

Apple laptops are manufactured and sent from China, the same factories that put Acer laptops together.

Correct, by Quanta (http://www.quanta.com.tw/Quanta/english/Default.aspx).
They also build for Alienware, Cisco, Compaq, Dell, Fujitsu, Gateway, Gericom, Hewlett-Packard, Lenovo, Maxdata, MPC, Sharp Corporation, Siemens AG, Sony, Sun Microsystems, and Toshiba.
source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanta_Computer)

One of the most amusing things about Apple laptops is how Apple fans rave about how superior Apple screens are.
Fact is they are the same screens fitted in many other laptops, made by Chi-Mei (http://www.cmo.com.tw/opencms/cmo/index.html?__locale=en).

Then there's the newish phenomena, the netbook.
The same MSI Wind chassis was sold as fifteen different "brands" across the world.
source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSI_Wind_Netbook)

[DownTown22]

We're discussing laptops.
Laptop brand is no guarantee of quality of manufacture because the manufacture is subcontracted out by the brand name to specialist manufacturing companies.
The main difference the brand name makes is in the after sales service.
The main components inside laptops, the CPU, RAM, GPU, HDD etc are supplied to the factory and assembled.
The same quality of parts are fitted in nearly all brands of laptops.

A major factor in determining laptop service life is heat.
The cooler the components run the longer the laptop is likely to last.
Laptops with discrete graphics cards, e.g. Nvidia or ATI are more likely to fail than those without.

I'm fully aware we're discussing laptops...

Discrete graphic cards are more likely to fail? Have anything to back that up?

[gn2]

Discrete graphic cards are more likely to fail? Have anything to back that up?

Just my own experience of having people bring them to me for repair.
Laptops containing discrete graphic adapters are more likely to fail because of the increased heat.
Increased heat means more airflow and in turn that means more dust build up and reduced cooling efficiency.

[DownTown22]

Just my own experience of having people bring them to me for repair.
Laptops containing discrete graphic adapters are more likely to fail because of the increased heat.
Increased heat means more airflow and in turn that means more dust build up and reduced cooling efficiency.

Alrighty, thanks!

[Gizenshya]

Correct, by Quanta (http://www.quanta.com.tw/Quanta/english/Default.aspx).
They also build for Alienware, Cisco, Compaq, Dell, Fujitsu, Gateway, Gericom, Hewlett-Packard, Lenovo, Maxdata, MPC, Sharp Corporation, Siemens AG, Sony, Sun Microsystems, and Toshiba.
source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanta_Computer)

One of the most amusing things about Apple laptops is how Apple fans rave about how superior Apple screens are.
Fact is they are the same screens fitted in many other laptops, made by Chi-Mei (http://www.cmo.com.tw/opencms/cmo/index.html?__locale=en).

Then there's the newish phenomena, the netbook.
The same MSI Wind chassis was sold as fifteen different "brands" across the world.
source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSI_Wind_Netbook)


wtf? can you not read? Quanta is TAIWANESE, not CHINESE!!! Taiwan is famous for electronics (and component) manufacturing and assembly. Many top brands are made there. That is one reason why I like Acer, Biostar, Asus, and others. I avoid Chinese products like the plague. Many times it is unavoidable.. but I do what I can. I can't stand supporting communism. China is especially bad because they have been threatening for years to attack Taiwan. The US makes billions in weapons sales to Taiwan because of the constant threat posed by China.

Some of those companies do outsource parts of their operation to China, unfortunately (like Rosewill). But there aren't really any 100% nationalistic companies anymore.

[Glucklich]

wtf? can you not read? Quanta is TAIWANESE, not CHINESE!!! Taiwan is famous for electronics (and component) manufacturing and assembly. Many top brands are made there. That is one reason why I like Acer, Biostar, Asus, and others. I avoid Chinese products like the plague. Many times it is unavoidable.. but I do what I can. I can't stand supporting communism. China is especially bad because they have been threatening for years to attack Taiwan. The US makes billions in weapons sales to Taiwan because of the constant threat posed by China.

Some of those companies do outsource parts of their operation to China, unfortunately (like Rosewill). But there aren't really any 100% nationalistic companies anymore.

Taiwan, officially known as, Republic of China. So, he's correct. Here's some information for your brain. Republic of China. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China)

Notice the "not to be confused with the People's Republic of China" observation at the beginning. Both called China, both different. Well, I'm over-simplifying it but that's why I left the Wikipedia page.

[drawkcab]

I have a 15" MSI barebones built up that is not unlike the 16" that you posted. I love it. I have found MSI and Compal to put out quality products comparable to Asus.

No way I would buy an Acer given that company's reputation.

[Gizenshya]

Taiwan, officially known as, Republic of China. So, he's correct. Here's some information for your brain. Republic of China. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China)

Notice the "not to be confused with the People's Republic of China" observation at the beginning. Both called China, both different. Well, I'm over-simplifying it but that's why I left the Wikipedia page.

I won't go into a boring history lesson, but what in the context that they meant it, they meant Taiwan. They both used "China" incorrectly. Either they meant that they were made in the Peoples Republic of China, or that they thought the PRC and ROC were the same thing. The really short version is that since the 70's China has meant what most people think of as China today. It really gets confusing when looking at older documents and politics from the mid-20th century. Taiwan is actually in the process of having its official name changed to Taiwan, instead of ROC, because it is so confusing for people who do not know the lengthy history. Many people wrongly believe, much like those previous posters, that Taiwan and China are the same country.

Again, I won't get in to a long story of politics and history, but call Taiwan Taiwan and China China. To refer to Taiwan as simply "China" is incorrect. Calling it the ROC is correct, but confusing to those who don't know the history. For clarity and accuracy, use Taiwan.

[Glucklich]

Now you're just creating conventions and applying erroneous principles. How can you possibly know what they meant? Just because other people don't follow your conventions, doesn't mean they're wrong. There has to be a space for pluralism, in all of this. And since the official name of Taiwan has "China" in it (therefore, it's not incorrect to call it that), I think it's fine. Because I couldn't care less if one is communist and the other is capitalist (or whatever). If both want to call themselves China, it's fine by me. And until they change their official name to Taiwan, I'll keep my right to call them China.

[Gizenshya]

They were wrong. Why do you need to defend them? They called Taiwan China. The word "China" has not referred to what is now Taiwan in decades.

It is like this. If I call you gay, how would you feel? Years ago, the word had the meaning "happy." Now the word "gay" means homosexual. It doiesn't matter what it used to mean, or how much you liked it when it meant that.. the fact is, that isn't what it means anymore. Things change.

Today, China refers one thing: the PRC, controlled by the Chinese Communist Party. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter what you or I think of it, that is the truth. Taiwan means one thing: the ROC, a free, democratic country that is one of the economic powerhouses of the East.

They called Taiwan China. China has one meaning, and that meaning is not Taiwan. So it is blatantly obvious what they meant. I don't know if it was intentional or pure ignorance, but they were clearly wrong.

[thisllub]

Go for battery life and a small screen.
It really is important with laptops.
My daughter has a Lenovo R61 that gets about 5 hours with Ubuntu.

I have an Acer Travelmate. 17"
Zero battery life from day one (15 mins),a dodgy screen and it is only 2 years old.
I wouldn't buy Acer again.

[gn2]

wtf? can you not read? Quanta is TAIWANESE, not CHINESE!!!

I can read just fine thanks.
Here's a page for you to read (http://www.quantatw.com/Quanta/english/about/qmap.aspx), it's the contact address for Quanta which lists the address as:

No.211, Wen Hwa 2nd Rd., Kuei Shan Hsiang, Tao Yuan Shien, Taiwan,
R.O.C.

AFAIK R.O.C. means Republic of China, unless it's been changed recently and no-one thought to tell me.

Edit: when I look underneath my Asus F9E it states clearly "Made In China".
This puzzled me because if you are correct and Taiwan is no longer the Republic Of China, surely it should say made in Taiwan?
Turns out that Asus, a company established in Taiwan have manufacturing facilities located in both the (Taiwanese) Republic Of China and also in the People's Republic Of China, as do Quanta Computer.
So it looks like you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Do you have moles in Taiwan?

[Gizenshya]

As I said, there are not really any 100% nationalistic companies anymore. Outsourcing is not a US-only idea. I have a Rosewill case (Taiwanese company) that happens to have been made in China.

"Made in China" means made in China, not Taiwan. So yeah, that one was outsourced. Perhaps all of that model were, perhaps only part. I don't know.

But it doesn't matter anyway because that is a red herring. My issue is with the names and how you used them. Please use the correct name. Why do you insist on using it incorrectly? If you really want to call Taiwan China, or the US the UK, or India Turkey, then so be it. You can do whatever you want and justify it to yourself however you please. Just keep in mind that that doesn't affect anything that I've said. What I've said is true, and you haven't disputed that. You've only said that you want to call it by another name.

My issue was with the name usage. I just wanted to clarify it for those who may not understand. It seems like you might have misunderstood that a bit.

Now, if you want to dispute what I said about the names, go right ahead. I'm done with this topic, though. This is off-topic and it is turning into a hijacked thread over something that should not have gone on for more than a post or two. I will give you fair warning though... it cannot be done, since what I've said is true. It is not an opinion, it is simple fact. I don't like the say it is now, but that is how it is.

[gn2]

Why do you insist on using it incorrectly?

Why do you insist on finding fault where none exists?

Goods made in PRC and ROC are both from China in the same way that goods made in France and Germany are both from Europe.

And that should explain how I think, so now you know, whereas before you didn't.

You might think about the word China differently but that doesn't mean I am wrong. :)

[Gizenshya]

Well then you are clearly misunderstanding the situation.

France and Germany are part of the European Union. So OK there

But there is no government entity that encompasses China and Taiwan.

What you're thinking would be like saying Mexico was part of the United States (Los Estados Unidos). California and North Dakota are related in that sense like Germany and France, but Mexico is not related to California or any other US state in that sense.

And trade relations do not make two countries into one. The US has extensive trade relations with China as well, but nobody here (yet...) has claimed they are the same country.

Your understanding of the word "China" would be like saying the United States and European Union are the same thing because they are both unions of states (or because they both have the word "union" in them), or that North and South Korea are the same thing because they both have "Korea" in their name. Yes, the US and EU are both unions of states, but they are separate entities, each with its own sovereignty.

I know it can be confusing. Just don't let the words confuse you. Definitions are more important. Once you understand them, then the correct word is easier to realize.

[koleoptero]

And on a sidenote, I'd very much like this laptop (http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop-alienware-m17x?c=us&l=en&s=dhs). But of course I don't have the money :(

[gn2]

~ there is no government entity that encompasses China and Taiwan. ~

But the governance is utterly irrelevant.
Geographically ROC and PRC are both China.

[Gizenshya]

What? That makes no sense at all.

Congrats, you got me. I fell for the troll. Now go bug someone else.

[gn2]

What? That makes no sense at all.

What's so hard to understand?

Republic of China
Peoples Republic of China

The clue is that they are both called China.

[koleoptero]

This topic seriously needs some moderation...

[Glucklich]

They were wrong. Why do you need to defend them? They called Taiwan China. The word "China" has not referred to what is now Taiwan in decades.

Once again, I'll have to tell you that you can't possibly know what they meant.


It is like this. If I call you gay, how would you feel? Years ago, the word had the meaning "happy." Now the word "gay" means homosexual. It doiesn't matter what it used to mean, or how much you liked it when it meant that.. the fact is, that isn't what it means anymore. Things change.

I couldn't care less about what you call me. But let's use an example with a current less negative connotation.
United States of America, most people call it America... America is the name of the continent, are they wrong? No, because the USA has "America" in it. But they only call it "America" to simplify. In this case (ROC), they used the official simplified term... "China". You just have to look to it in the context, that's all. And they already shown you the website that clearly states "ROC"... so, nothing wrong with it.


This topic seriously needs some moderation...

Moderation for what? It's just a regular discussion. Maybe a bit off-topic but everyone already gave their opinion on the laptops. And some good opinions, might I add. No one has been rude. No one has disrespected others in any way. Let us discuss China.

[DownTown22]

Sure looks like it needs moderation.

Went from a discussion on which laptop would be best (with a few other suggestions thrown in) to a utterly useless discussion about the difference between Taiwan and China.

[JordyD]

I'd have to agree on the moderation. If you want to discuss China, why not make a new thread and inform that other person you're discussing China with about it?

[gn2]

This topic seriously needs some moderation...

Well perhaps you should report it rather than post your opinion?


If you have found a post that you feel is inappropriate or that violates the forum code of conduct, please use the report post function. Do not attempt to moderate discussions or correct other users yourself.
source (http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy)

[cariboo]

This thread has become a political argument. It is now closed.