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Kosimo
June 23rd, 2009, 09:59 AM
I've been using Ubuntu (Exclusively) since feisty 7.04 I remember that was the first distro having my 3D card working properly. Since then my ubuntu crazyness started, (converting to Ubuntu every day users more than 10 friends) Spending hours and hours setting up my system, reading all forums, upgrading my drivers, installing my repos, building my software, etc...

But I've got a Mac...
It's been a week since I'm using Leopard and I can say... WOW... I've almost forgot what does it means when everything works.... You can't even imagine how many hours, days, weeks do I have to spend in order to have my Ubuntu machine the way I want (and there are always some things missing, like the webcam and other stuff)... The Mac User experience is amazing and I'm delighted.

Everything Works out of the box, in my opinion using a mac is like having the perfect distro where everything works smoothly and I can finally USE my computer without spending even a minute setting anything, which is in my opinion the best way to use a computer.
I'll keep having my PC with Ubuntu of course, but guys... I'm in love.

speedwell68
June 23rd, 2009, 10:38 AM
The trouble with an Apple is the price of the software.

sim-value
June 23rd, 2009, 10:39 AM
LOL !

Wow so amazing you got a computer with a preinstalled OS and it works ...

Ozor Mox
June 23rd, 2009, 10:46 AM
The trouble with an Apple is the price.

Fixed for you!

To be honest, I have considered a Mac more than once, drawn to the idea of a computer that is designed as a whole unit and therefore, in theory, "just works" *. The thing that puts me off every time is the ridiculous price of the things, especially in the UK. Also, Ubuntu "just works" for me, it's just a case of either buying it pre-installed or making sure the hardware is supported...or getting lucky! :)

Anyway, good for you OP. You have OS X, and you can carry on running Ubuntu alongside should you want to... The best of everything.

* Two weeks ago I watched my friend (who swears by Macs) rebooting his Mac Pro over and over and repeatedly getting kernel panics just after logging in, or not booting at all (from CD or HDD). Nothing wrong with the hardware. He tells me it's just become bogged down from a year and a half of use. Nothing is free from all problems, whatever the marketing says.

blueturtl
June 23rd, 2009, 12:20 PM
If you can afford the initial cost, an Apple is well worth the extra investment. You can't beat a single vendor solution in terms of integration, consistency nor polish.

PCs always were for the more technically inclined. The tweaker types. PCs are probably as common as they are only because most hardware makers choose to ship their systems with identical software (Windows).

I tend to think PCs were always intended to run a system such as Linux. Open hardware, open software, free choice. That is what PCs are about. If you don't want to bother yourself with choice, a Mac is the perfect answer.

jespdj
June 23rd, 2009, 12:26 PM
The trouble with an Apple is the price of the software.
I would say that the trouble with an Apple is that Apple controls what you can and cannot do with your computer (DRM) and that it's closed-source. (Don't start about Mac OS X being based on Darwin, which is open source... the largest part of OS X is closed and that Darwin is open source is practically useless, because you can't just install a modified version of Darwin yourself on a Mac).

Those MacBooks look really nice though...

billgoldberg
June 23rd, 2009, 12:42 PM
I've been using Ubuntu (Exclusively) since feisty 7.04 I remember that was the first distro having my 3D card working properly. Since then my ubuntu crazyness started, (converting to Ubuntu every day users more than 10 friends) Spending hours and hours setting up my system, reading all forums, upgrading my drivers, installing my repos, building my software, etc...

But I've got a Mac...
It's been a week since I'm using Leopard and I can say... WOW... I've almost forgot what does it means when everything works.... You can't even imagine how many hours, days, weeks do I have to spend in order to have my Ubuntu machine the way I want (and there are always some things missing, like the webcam and other stuff)... The Mac User experience is amazing and I'm delighted.

Everything Works out of the box, in my opinion using a mac is like having the perfect distro where everything works smoothly and I can finally USE my computer without spending even a minute setting anything, which is in my opinion the best way to use a computer.
I'll keep having my PC with Ubuntu of course, but guys... I'm in love.

This is a rediculious statement.

You buy a PC with an OS preinstalled and it works.

Wow. Imagine if it didn't.

Do you think those computers that come with Wiondows or Linux don't work OOTB?

If you had to spend hours on setting up Ubuntu to work correctly on your system, that is too bad.

You however make it sound like everybody has to do that.

geekygirl
June 23rd, 2009, 12:58 PM
I just bought a Macbook Pro as well over the weekend (after some prodding and poking from someone :P) and I also went "Wow! this is awesome"

I say use whatever makes you happy and dont be a zealot when it comes to OS choice :P

K.Y.A
June 23rd, 2009, 01:03 PM
The Preinstalled OS is supposed to work...

bryonak
June 23rd, 2009, 01:06 PM
I'm writing this from a MacBook Pro, on which I've booted into OSX maybe twice last year (and never in this one).
For me, Ubuntu is the superior OS. I never could get OSX (Tiger and Leopard) to work the way I want, because there were barriers everywhere and it just wouldn't let go of my hand.

As for "just works"... a Dell PC preloaded with Ubuntu will usually "just work" aswell. A friend of mine went for a Hackintosh (OSX on non-Apple hardware), and he's spent considerably more time on just getting it to run the hardware properly than I did on all tweaking and finetuning Ubuntu on my MBP ;)

MikeTheC
June 23rd, 2009, 01:21 PM
Speaking as a person who's had a foot quite securely in the Mac camp since 1986...

Absolutely, no solution is 100% perfect. That being said, if Apple's products were so gosh-awful as many try to make out, I doubt they would have the customer loyalty that they've always had.

I mean, even before Steve's return in 1996, customer loyalty was huge at Apple.

Anyone here remember the late 90s Apple vs. the Clones debacle?

http://www.pcworld.ca/slideshows/25_years_of_the_mac/images/slides_im_25_years_of_the_mac_03.jpg

I didn't find a larger version of this image, but what the gal is saying is: "You can take my Mac when you can pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse."

There was a whole community uproar over this. Anyhow, my point is loyalty to a Mac is not just some recent pop-fashion trend, and there is a reason for it.

No disrespect to Linux or any of those involved with it. Heck, I am involved with it. It's just that the Mac is not the evil monster in the corner of the room that a lot of people try to make it out to be.

Luffield
June 23rd, 2009, 01:40 PM
It's been a week since I'm using Leopard and I can say... WOW... I've almost forgot what does it means when everything works.... You can't even imagine how many hours, days, weeks do I have to spend in order to have my Ubuntu machine the way I want (and there are always some things missing, like the webcam and other stuff)... The Mac User experience is amazing and I'm delighted.

I don't understand this paragraph. You put a lot of time to configure Ubuntu to work just like you wanted it to work and then you got a Mac and everything works just like Apple wanted it to work, and you're happier with this? Are Apple doing such an amazing job?

Personally I don't like OS X, I find it pretty annoying to be honest. Still, I think people should try every OS they can and choose the best one for their needs and tastes. Even if it's not a free OS.

Have fun with your Mac.

handy
June 23rd, 2009, 01:50 PM
My main machine is a 24" iMac, on which I dual boot Leopard & Arch.

I find Arch superior in so many ways; it's faster, vastly more configurable, I can update the entire system by typing a few letters & my password whenever I choose, & the list goes on...

For anyone dual booting OS X, (10.4.11 & later on intel) & Linux, there is commercial software from Paragon, called ExtFS for Mac, which allows you to access ext2/3 file systems read/write. I use it & it works very well. Some of you may find it worth a look?

Skripka
June 23rd, 2009, 02:03 PM
Minimize, maximize, and close buttons belong on the right-hand side of app windows. It is that simple. ;)

hanzomon4
June 23rd, 2009, 02:32 PM
Welcome to the club, I have a 3.1 macbook pro and it's the best. Ubuntu runs fine on it, everything works except the keyboard backlight. But still comparing this near perfect Ubuntu install to OS X, OS X still wins. However with each new Ubuntu release the gap gets smaller. OS X is just so transparent, it gets out of my way. I know the Linux faithful don't want to hear that but it's true. If you can spend hours setting up a Linux box and dealing with it's peculiarities then you can get down with OS X. I just find it ironic that Linux users are so close minded in regards to something different.

handy
June 23rd, 2009, 02:44 PM
I just find it ironic that Linux users are so close minded in regards to something different.

I think they are a noisy minority. :popcorn:

Hopefully most people grow into the attitude of gratitude for the choices, as opposed to forcing their opinions... :P

Use what you like to use best, not what others want you to like to use.

blueturtl
June 23rd, 2009, 03:16 PM
For someone who loves Linux for what it is, it's pretty hard to grasp why someone might prefer Apple.

The OP is clearly a person who is in the Apple target market of people. I confess sometimes I find myself attracted to the latest Apple desktop computers. They are elegant and coherent, but I don't think they will ever be "personal computers" in the full meaning of the word.

The tinkerer in me longs for the opportunity to customize. To switch parts. To take apart and reassemble. I long for the uneven rattle of a tortured power supply, the whine of a hard-disk in a poorly isolated case. The unmatching different leds of devices from different manufacturers. There is a kind of beauty there not everyone can appreciate. I think in fact since PCs spread to homes, less and less of us PC users are the kind of hobbyists PCs are best for.

An Apple user goes: Why would you want to switch a power supply?
A Linux user asks: Why would you buy a computer knowing you can't change it's power supply?!

conundrumx
June 23rd, 2009, 04:30 PM
An Apple user goes: Why would you want to switch a power supply?
A Linux user asks: Why would you buy a computer knowing you can't change it's power supply?!

That's neither fair nor accurate. For me it became more of "Why would I want to replace the PSU, when I can have someone else do it under warranty, or never need to at all?

There are plenty of Mac users who are capable but not always willing to fix things themselves.

MikeTheC
June 23rd, 2009, 04:40 PM
See, I don't think that "just anyone" should have a computer, regardless of hardware or OS platform.

The first wave of commercialization in the computer world, to my mind, really came in the form of the AOL-itization of America, and then the rest of the world. That was the point at which I most significantly began to notice the shift in ownership demographics from hobbyist and enthusiast to trendy pop-culture gadget collector.

Now, ironically (especially given this thread) I found that one of the biggest draw for me to the Linux culture was that it was enthusiast-driven. It really reminded me at the time (and even to this day, though perhaps a bit less so) of the bygone era of the technology enthusiast.

Of all the companies in the tech industry, I think Apple has remained closest to it's ideals, although there's clearly no arguing they've capitalized on the trendiness and the pop-culture potential. To think otherwise would be to be na´ve.

I would love for Linux to become a dominant and a viable desktop standard (that is, no qualifiers). However, the fact of the matter is that isn't the case, and some of the factors that contribute to the positives of what Linux is also are some of the very same things that kind of threaten to keep it held back from 1st world adoption.

Now, is that changing? Yes, and this is best seen by comparing the "average Linux desktop" of five years ago to today. However, and not that I think diversity of choice or plurality of choice are a bad thing -- I don't -- but Linux would benefit from at least some degree of central leadership. However, there's no more solidarity amongst distros than there is among Linux users themselves.

All of this is why I remain a Mac user, and indeed why ultimately I bought a MBP back on the 12th. I want something that works, and works in the way that pleases and satisfies me, as well as doesn't require me to have to make excuses, or use qualifiers in describing what I do with it or how.

raymondh
June 23rd, 2009, 04:51 PM
MBP unibody 15" for me. Am quite happy with it ... as well as my macbook 13 (white). Yes, I am a mac-user.

billgoldberg
June 23rd, 2009, 05:12 PM
I just find it ironic that Linux users are so close minded in regards to something different.

Nice generalization.

Because people aren't convinced OSX is better they are close minded?

I have used OSX and I don't think it's any good.

I prefer Windows and Linux.

DeadSuperHero
June 23rd, 2009, 05:22 PM
I can't even afford a Macbook Pro, let alone a Macbook.

I guess it's time for me to go get a job...

FuturePilot
June 23rd, 2009, 06:00 PM
I've been using Ubuntu (Exclusively) since feisty 7.04 I remember that was the first distro having my 3D card working properly. Since then my ubuntu crazyness started, (converting to Ubuntu every day users more than 10 friends) Spending hours and hours setting up my system, reading all forums, upgrading my drivers, installing my repos, building my software, etc...

But I've got a Mac...
It's been a week since I'm using Leopard and I can say... WOW... I've almost forgot what does it means when everything works.... You can't even imagine how many hours, days, weeks do I have to spend in order to have my Ubuntu machine the way I want (and there are always some things missing, like the webcam and other stuff)... The Mac User experience is amazing and I'm delighted.

Everything Works out of the box, in my opinion using a mac is like having the perfect distro where everything works smoothly and I can finally USE my computer without spending even a minute setting anything, which is in my opinion the best way to use a computer.
I'll keep having my PC with Ubuntu of course, but guys... I'm in love.

I love when people say "I bought a computer with a preinstalled and configured OS and everything "just works" compared to Ubuntu that I installed myself on some random hardware." Of course the preinstalled and configured OS is going to "just work" compared to a do it yourself job on a machine with possibly some troublesome hardware. My point is if you buy a preinstalled Ubuntu system you will get the same "just works" experience.

NightwishFan
June 23rd, 2009, 06:26 PM
I do not like Apple, and I am actually happy Microsoft tried to crush some of their media player market.

Part of the apple experience is that your hardware and software is made by the same people, but oh you pay for it!

I am one of the few people who would actually like a more comprehensive Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu DVD, which has a good range of packages, including Universe software. Sort of like SUSE DVD, and Windows/Mac which is one of the reasons I wanted to use OpenSUSE in the past.

Icehuck
June 23rd, 2009, 06:28 PM
I love when people say "I bought a computer with a preinstalled and configured OS and everything "just works" compared to Ubuntu that I installed myself on some random hardware." Of course the preinstalled and configured OS is going to "just work" compared to a do it yourself job on a machine with possibly some troublesome hardware. My point is if you buy a preinstalled Ubuntu system you will get the same "just works" experience.

Except when I install Snow Leopard it will work no problem. It won't be preloaded on the system but it will just work. Makes your argument kinda pointless.

NightwishFan
June 23rd, 2009, 06:37 PM
Well install Snow Leopard on my computer. Nothing will work.

billgoldberg
June 23rd, 2009, 06:39 PM
Except when I install Snow Leopard it will work no problem. It won't be preloaded on the system but it will just work. Makes your argument kinda pointless.

No it does not.

If you can not see the flaw in your logic, well then you can't be helped.

Icehuck
June 23rd, 2009, 06:50 PM
No it does not.

If you can not see the flaw in your logic, well then you can't be helped.

Please enlighten me instead of taking cheap jabs at my "lack" of intelligence.

blueturtl
June 23rd, 2009, 06:51 PM
That's neither fair nor accurate. For me it became more of "Why would I want to replace the PSU, when I can have someone else do it under warranty, or never need to at all?

There are plenty of Mac users who are capable but not always willing to fix things themselves.

I don't quite understand your statement since 'want' is exactly the word I used. I know many Mac users are technophiles, and quite apt in hardware and software maintenance.

All I meant to say was that a Linux user doesn't necessarily understand why a Mac user wouldn't want to have the freedom to totally dismantle their software/hardware because to them it is the most valuable trait of their system.

praveesh
June 23rd, 2009, 07:08 PM
A pre installed os is supposed to run out of the box. There is nothing to wonder about it. Can you imagine a new mobile phone that is not working perfectly? . If the hardware manufacturer supply enough drivers, certainly Ubuntu will run out of the box. Apple do have drivers of a mac . Thats why it work so fine. If canonical is manufacturing a new pc and sell it Ubuntu preinstalled , it will work extremely well as a mac do. More over ,before you get a mac, all the tweeking needed are being done by the engineers of apple.

balloooza
June 23rd, 2009, 07:17 PM
I am allways impressed with macs, I am verry against propritory software, but I leave an exception for apple (witch is odd, because they are the most propritory thing out there) I just somtimes need a break from family telling me stuff is not working.

Although I do not use the mac frequently, when I do there are advantages to it 1: built in "bonjoure" (zeroconfig/ basicly a port scan :) )vnc, to connect to my linux box. ssh, to connect to my linux boxes.

karellen
June 23rd, 2009, 07:28 PM
Except when I install Snow Leopard it will work no problem. It won't be preloaded on the system but it will just work. Makes your argument kinda pointless.

only on Apple approved hardware ;). which restricts your options, don't you think? I was never a fan of Apple products, yes, I do think Mac OS X is indeed a very good OS (maybe the best/stable, due to the fact that it runs on limited and strictly controlled hardware), but overall I find Macs terrible overpriced (at least in my country, where for the same specs I can easily buy two laptops instead of just one MacBook Pro)

koshatnik
June 23rd, 2009, 08:59 PM
I've been using Ubuntu (Exclusively) since feisty 7.04 I remember that was the first distro having my 3D card working properly. Since then my ubuntu crazyness started, (converting to Ubuntu every day users more than 10 friends) Spending hours and hours setting up my system, reading all forums, upgrading my drivers, installing my repos, building my software, etc...

But I've got a Mac...
It's been a week since I'm using Leopard and I can say... WOW... I've almost forgot what does it means when everything works.... You can't even imagine how many hours, days, weeks do I have to spend in order to have my Ubuntu machine the way I want (and there are always some things missing, like the webcam and other stuff)... The Mac User experience is amazing and I'm delighted.

Everything Works out of the box, in my opinion using a mac is like having the perfect distro where everything works smoothly and I can finally USE my computer without spending even a minute setting anything, which is in my opinion the best way to use a computer.
I'll keep having my PC with Ubuntu of course, but guys... I'm in love.

Who would have thought that starting a thread like this would have lead to so much verbal carnage? :D

LowSky
June 23rd, 2009, 09:12 PM
how much set up really goes into Ubuntu?

the peope who install Ubutnu are tweaking it because they can

windows and OS/X do not offer that.

JordyD
June 23rd, 2009, 09:29 PM
I am allways impressed with macs, I am verry against propritory software, but I leave an exception for apple (witch is odd, because they are the most propritory thing out there) I just somtimes need a break from family telling me stuff is not working.

Although I do not use the mac frequently, when I do there are advantages to it 1: built in "bonjoure" (zeroconfig/ basicly a port scan :) )vnc, to connect to my linux box. ssh, to connect to my linux boxes.

The most proprietary thing out there? I think that title belongs to Microsoft, since the core of Macs are open-source (Darwin).

koshatnik
June 23rd, 2009, 10:14 PM
The most proprietary thing out there? I think that title belongs to Microsoft, since the core of Macs are open-source (Darwin).

Irrelevant. Jobs hocks shiny baubles for moolah. Just like Ballmer does, but his are less shiny.

MikeTheC
June 23rd, 2009, 10:28 PM
Who would have thought that starting a thread like this would have lead to so much verbal carnage? :D

Yeah, it *is* sad.

It's not like any of us with Macs are here slamming Linux in any way, but woe betide us here if we just *mention* Apple or Macintosh or Mac OS X. The intolerance by some on this board is really pathetic, and indeed *should be* beneath comment.

ratcheer
June 23rd, 2009, 11:00 PM
My son has a Macbook Pro, too. I am jealous of him.

In fact, the reason I installed 9.04 on his old PC is because I am bored with Windows. I use Solaris 10 at work.

But, yes, it is a pain always having to fix stuff in Ubuntu. And I have only been doing it for a couple of weeks!

Tim

JordyD
June 24th, 2009, 12:17 AM
Irrelevant. Jobs hocks shiny baubles for moolah. Just like Ballmer does, but his are less shiny.

Still, Microsoft wins the Most Porprietary OS Badge. Being a close second does not make you any less second.

zekopeko
June 24th, 2009, 12:45 AM
Yeah, it *is* sad.

It's not like any of us with Macs are here slamming Linux in any way, but woe betide us here if we just *mention* Apple or Macintosh or Mac OS X. The intolerance by some on this board is really pathetic, and indeed *should be* beneath comment.

agreed. i don't see mac users bashing linux.

on the mac thing:

i love their computer design and engineering. they know how to make a good looking and powerful machine.
and Mac OS X is probably the most polished OS out there. they also ship amazing software that is pleasing to the eye and highly functional.
the problem with Mac's is the price outside of US.
I would gladly pay the price they want in the US for a Mac but here in Europe it's a ripoff. In my country the dollar price of a Mac(USA price) is converted into Euros and then multiplied by at least 1.5 .

geekygirl
June 24th, 2009, 01:27 AM
As a new OSX user and previously a Linux preferred OS user I can also say that I really like OSX and the effort gone into it.

I also love Ubuntu and the effort you have to put into it to get it to work.

So, by some of the posts in here because I love my Macbook Pro and OSX now that makes me somehow less of a 'computer enthusiast' or a 'tinkerer' because of this?!

I think not.

I still love computer hardware and building machines, but when it comes to laptops how many people seriously, start 'tinkering' and changing the internals anyways?! Do people often change their power supplies on a laptop?!!! I never have :P

This was a thread about a Macbook laptop after all not desktops....

At the end of the day if what you use makes you happy - who are others to judge you or comment and lessen your experience?

I agree - I am yet to see an OSX user in this thread having a go at a Linux user so why do some Linux users feel its their right to judge and be critical of someone just saying how pleased they are with an operating system?

E-Peen at its best :(

handy
June 24th, 2009, 02:09 AM
For someone who loves Linux for what it is, it's pretty hard to grasp why someone might prefer Apple.

Strangely there are hundreds of Linux distro's, why do you think that is?

We are not all the same.

Some people understand human differences easier than others, the others usually have a far more convergent way of thinking.



The OP is clearly a person who is in the Apple target market of people.

Which are what?

People that just want the OS to work without having to spend many hours getting it to recognise all of their particular hardware.

Or people that actually have a use for the computer & don't give a hoot about an OS, so long as it is easy to use, secure & reliable?

Or is it people that require essential software that is far from compatible with the Linux kernel?

Or is it people that just really like the interface?

Or is it the people that have other Apple hardware/software products & just love the way that they all work together?



I confess sometimes I find myself attracted to the latest Apple desktop computers. They are elegant and coherent, but I don't think they will ever be "personal computers" in the full meaning of the word.

You probably meant word[s]. ;)

What you said relies on your personal definition.

A personal computer is a single user computer that has its own OS.

By the looks of it, your definition could be extended to mean that a personal computer requires the owner to source the components & assemble the hardware to be considered personal.

Extended further, the owner of a personal computer should have to write the OS, or at least build it with say, Linux From Scratch.

All of which is a bit extreme for the vast majority of personal computer users I think.



The tinkerer in me longs for the opportunity to customize. To switch parts. To take apart and reassemble. I long for the uneven rattle of a tortured power supply, the whine of a hard-disk in a poorly isolated case. The unmatching different leds of devices from different manufacturers. There is a kind of beauty there not everyone can appreciate.

Perhaps a little poetic beauty? :)

You are starting to understand that you are in a minority, that's good, there is hope for you. :D



I think in fact since PCs spread to homes, less and less of us PC users are the kind of hobbyists PCs are best for.

Do I smell elitism?



An Apple user goes: Why would you want to switch a power supply?
A Linux user asks: Why would you buy a computer knowing you can't change it's power supply?!

Not true.

As a retired IT tech', I bought my Mac, happy that I wouldn't be inside of it all the time for one reason or another, as after doing that kind of work most days of the week, for over 20 years, it becomes pretty boring.

There exists a huge range of conflicting, though still credible attitudes.

Just because someone doesn't share the same ones we have, that doesn't mean that their attitudes are any less credible than our own, or that they are a person of any less value.

I'm all for educated freedom of choice.

MikeTheC
June 24th, 2009, 03:09 AM
the problem with Mac's is the price outside of US.
You should see how Australians and New Zealanders get treated and run roughshod over when it comes to technology pricing. Yikes!

And to think all the ships that deliver these very same goods to the U.S. have to pass by Australia first to get here.

HappyFeet
June 24th, 2009, 03:59 AM
This is a rediculious statement.

You buy a PC with an OS preinstalled and it works.

Wow. Imagine if it didn't.

Do you think those computers that come with Wiondows or Linux don't work OOTB?

If you had to spend hours on setting up Ubuntu to work correctly on your system, that is too bad.

You however make it sound like everybody has to do that.

I agree. Ubuntu has always "just worked" for me with no fiddling, therefore have no interest in overpriced eye-candy. If you think MacOS is perfect, go to the mac forums and see for yourself.

That statement "it just worked" is a bit of a ridiculous statement. Buy an ubuntu machine, and it too will just work. Geez people.

conundrumx
June 24th, 2009, 05:04 AM
I don't quite understand your statement since 'want' is exactly the word I used. I know many Mac users are technophiles, and quite apt in hardware and software maintenance.

All I meant to say was that a Linux user doesn't necessarily understand why a Mac user wouldn't want to have the freedom to totally dismantle their software/hardware because to them it is the most valuable trait of their system.

It's a matter of the tone I perceived and tried to express. Curse this simple glyph based form of communication! The way I read your post was "Mac users don't understand why ANYONE would want to do something" and what I tried to express was that many of us see it as "Why should I want to when..."

The difference being, I took your post to imply the concept of customization and self service are alien to Mac owners.

In response to people asking why it is OSX users aren't attacking Linux, they're just not doing it here. Rest assured every OS has a camp of rabid fanboys ready to belittle and defame the competition and its users. I think the most likely explanation for the lack of it here is that most of the OSX users on Ubuntu forums are former or current Linux users, too.

MikeTheC
June 24th, 2009, 05:12 AM
I think there's a lot of people on message boards in general (not specifically singling out UF) who have very poor online social skills or manners.

We are all entitled to our opinions, and goodness knows I sure have some which would doubtless clash with many other people here. However, unless the subject is like killing babies or something, I'm not going to jump all over the other person for expressing their view.

koshatnik
June 24th, 2009, 09:20 AM
Still, Microsoft wins the Most Porprietary OS Badge. Being a close second does not make you any less second.

I didnt realise it was a competition. How are such things measured? Can I see the results? I'm amazed someone actually decided to measure this.

Actually, no I'm not. There are alot of sad lonely men in the world.

ade234uk
June 24th, 2009, 09:55 AM
Lets be honest, what are you getting from a MAC that you cant already get for free on Ubuntu? The only thing that comes to my mind is games.

Also if you are a graphic designer, what does a Mac give you that Ubuntu and dare I say it Windows cannot. At the end of the day, the design you create is only as good as the press it is printed on.

So is the Mac really worth the money. In my opinion, I don't think it is.

Mazza558
June 24th, 2009, 11:02 AM
I'm getting a MacBook Pro (low end 13 inch) in a couple of weeks, and will be probably using OSX mainly, with Ubuntu for the killer app that only rus without lag on Linux (LMMS) and Windows for games. Depends how they all run to be honest.

Swarms
June 24th, 2009, 11:33 AM
Lets be honest, what are you getting from a MAC that you cant already get for free on Ubuntu? The only thing that comes to my mind is games.

Also if you are a graphic designer, what does a Mac give you that Ubuntu and dare I say it Windows cannot.



Photoshop.


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I also own a Macbook 13'' unibody, and when I initially bought it, the idea was to install Ubuntu right away. But I fell in love with the OSX system, the freedom that I didn't have to fiddle with stuff because I had the thought back in my head that I could always improve it, was just fantastic.

Ubuntu and OSX are both great operating systems in their own ways, and I can certainly understand people in here speaks so passionable of each of them, but I too do not understand why some are so against the other systems.

Why can't we just use what we prefer and don't judge what other people use?

ade234uk
June 24th, 2009, 11:59 AM
Photoshop.


--

I also own a Macbook 13'' unibody, and when I initially bought it, the idea was to install Ubuntu right away. But I fell in love with the OSX system, the freedom that I didn't have to fiddle with stuff because I had the thought back in my head that I could always improve it, was just fantastic.

Ubuntu and OSX are both great operating systems in their own ways, and I can certainly understand people in here speaks so passionable of each of them, but I too do not understand why some are so against the other systems.

Why can't we just use what we prefer and don't judge what other people use?

I already run Photoshop CS through Wine without any issues whatsoever. For me the issue with Mac's are the cost. It's a big investment to make on hardware, look of the unit and OSX, and then what happens if you hate it.

Swarms
June 24th, 2009, 12:37 PM
I already run Photoshop CS through Wine without any issues whatsoever. For me the issue with Mac's are the cost. It's a big investment to make on hardware, look of the unit and OSX, and then what happens if you hate it.

But it is not supported, hence companies and graphic designers won't use.

If the price is very high, just don't buy it. For others, the value equals or surpasses the cost. And of course you will risk that you do not like the product, but that is nothing unique to Apple products.

ade234uk
June 24th, 2009, 12:54 PM
Fair enough. I have got so used to Ubuntu the days I just cant see what other OS can offer me.

blueturtl
June 24th, 2009, 12:55 PM
What a confrontational thread. :)


For someone who loves Linux for what it is, it's pretty hard to grasp why someone might prefer Apple.
--
Strangely there are hundreds of Linux distro's, why do you think that is?
We are not all the same.
Some people understand human differences easier than others, the others usually have a far more convergent way of thinking.

My bad this one. I'm Finnish and I could sometimes use better formatting for my thoughts. "For someone who loves Linux for what it is, it's pretty hard to grasp why someone might prefer Apple." should have been "For someone who loves Linux for what it is, it can be pretty hard to grasp why someone might prefer Apple."

Here I was mostly referring to all the posts made earlier in the thread about Apple's comparably limited hardware selection, and (if compared to Linux) relatively standardized closed software bundle. The OP was stating that he was loving it, and many posted questioning how he could possibly prefer "the Apple way".


The OP is clearly a person who is in the Apple target market of people.
--
Which are what?

People that just want the OS to work without having to spend many hours getting it to recognise all of their particular hardware.

Or people that actually have a use for the computer & don't give a hoot about an OS, so long as it is easy to use, secure & reliable?

Or is it people that require essential software that is far from compatible with the Linux kernel?

Or is it people that just really like the interface?

Or is it the people that have other Apple hardware/software products & just love the way that they all work together?

One or more, or possibly all of the above!


I confess sometimes I find myself attracted to the latest Apple desktop computers. They are elegant and coherent, but I don't think they will ever be "personal computers" in the full meaning of the word.
--
You probably meant word[s].

I did. I was thinking of the acronym PC. English is not my native language.


What you said relies on your personal definition.

A personal computer is a single user computer that has its own OS.

By the looks of it, your definition could be extended to mean that a personal computer requires the owner to source the components & assemble the hardware to be considered personal.

Extended further, the owner of a personal computer should have to write the OS, or at least build it with say, Linux From Scratch.

All of which is a bit extreme for the vast majority of personal computer users I think.

That is true, but I am looking at this from a hobbyist's perspective. I am one you see. :) To me, having a different wallpaper is not enough to make a computer "personal". That isn't to say they aren't, it's just my view.


You are starting to understand that you are in a minority, that's good, there is hope for you. :)
I know I am in a minority. Most people see computers as tools. They are not as interested in computers themselves, as they are about what they can do with them. I think that is what separates a computer enthusiast or hobbyist from the rest of the populace, not necessarily how apt they are in for example building software from source.


Do I smell elitism?
I hope not. I sincerely believe that most home users would be better off with Macs. It has nothing to do with their technical skills but rather my observation that most people do seem to prefer convenience. As I stated in my first post, I believe only a single vendor solution like Apple can offer the kind of convenience that people want because control over both hardware and software gives them a kind of competitive edge in integration and polish. No Windows desktop I've seen has ever even come close to offering the same kind of feel.


An Apple user goes: Why would you want to switch a power supply?
A Linux user asks: Why would you buy a computer knowing you can't change it's power supply?!
--
Not true.

As a retired IT tech', I bought my Mac, happy that I wouldn't be inside of it all the time for one reason or another, as after doing that kind of work most days of the week, for over 20 years, it becomes pretty boring.

I know many Mac users are technically inclined. Many are in fact quite a bit more knowledgeable about hardware/software than I am. What I've tried to imply in the former exchange was that the defining difference between a Linux user and a Mac user is that the Mac user willingly chooses what a Linux user would call "lack of freedom". It is a valid decision to make, but many of us Linux users do not understand it because we want the power -- if need be -- to service the system ourselves, and with Apple (in exchange for a lot of that juicy convenience) you tend to loose a lot of that freedom.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.


Just because someone doesn't share the same ones we have, that doesn't mean that their attitudes are any less credible than our own, or that they are a person of any less value.

I'm all for educated freedom of choice.
I believe we agree on a lot more than we disagree on. :)

handy
June 24th, 2009, 02:17 PM
What a confrontational thread. :)

Yes, the Mac & Windows threads always have a lot of hard heads banging against each other. lol



My bad this one. I'm Finnish and I could sometimes use better formatting for my thoughts.

Your use of the English language is better than very good. You certainly explained your thoughts very clearly in your last post.



I believe we agree on a lot more than we disagree on. :)

I agree, that we really don't have any disagreements at all. :)

Thanks for your reply.

NightwishFan
June 24th, 2009, 03:07 PM
I was interested in the macs for a while, and a bit ago I would have bought one if I could afford it. Looking at the big picture I would probably just eventually install some form of Linux..

Kosimo
June 24th, 2009, 05:13 PM
WOW guys!

Why so much hate?



This is my current Desktop, and I can tell you that I'm loving it more and more everyday. I totally support the open source projects, in fact I would love to have Darwin open sourced, but many of the annoying bugs I get in my Ubuntu machine are totally gone in my Mac.
Sorry guys but that's the way it is.
Of course we can say that Mac is closed, and of course it works because they do everything blah blah balh... But you know what? IMHO does what I want to do much better, smoothly, almost bug-free, and I'm still inside *nix family.

HappyFeet
June 24th, 2009, 06:38 PM
many of the annoying bugs I get in my Ubuntu machine are totally gone in my Mac.
Sorry guys but that's the way it is.


Had you purchased a computer with ubuntu preinstalled, it would have been a smooth experience for you. (and alot cheaper) You can even make ubuntu look like a mac. (Mac4Lin)

Most people buy a computer with the OS preinstalled. That is a given. But why not consider buying a machine with ubuntu? It's guaranteed to work well.

You obviously have deep pockets and don't care to support vendors who pre-load linux. But that's OK, you are just one of many feeding the proprietary machine. Carry on.

Kosimo
June 24th, 2009, 06:42 PM
Had you purchased a computer with ubuntu preinstalled, it would have been a smooth experience for you. (and alot cheaper) You can even make ubuntu look like a mac. (Mac4Lin)

Most people buy a computer with the OS preinstalled. That is a given. But why not consider buying a machine with ubuntu? It's guaranteed to work well.

You obviously have deep pockets and don't care to support vendors who pre-load linux. But that's OK, you are just one of many feeding the proprietary machine. Carry on.

This, doesn't even deserve an answer.

madjr
June 24th, 2009, 06:55 PM
use whatever you want, i don't have nothing against macs

just don't go advertising everywhere that linux would not work with the hardware just as well if you got it pre-installed (which is why this has become just another os war thread).

should go to recurring

FuturePilot
June 24th, 2009, 07:17 PM
I'm not sure where people are seeing all this "hate". All I see is some people pointing out a valid argument; that there is no comparison between a preinstalled OS and one you installed on your own. I would be pointing this issue out even if someone made a comparison between a preinstalled Ubuntu machine and some random computer that they installed a non-OEM version of Windows on. I have no problem with OS X. I always say to use what works, and that might be something different for everyone. However there is just an unfair comparison being made here. A more fair comparison would have been, say, a preinstalled Ubuntu machine and a MacBook.

Swarms
June 24th, 2009, 07:49 PM
I'm not sure where people are seeing all this "hate". All I see is some people pointing out a valid argument; that there is no comparison between a preinstalled OS and one you installed on your own. I would be pointing this issue out even if someone made a comparison between a preinstalled Ubuntu machine and some random computer that they installed a non-OEM version of Windows on. I have no problem with OS X. I always say to use what works, and that might be something different for everyone. However there is just an unfair comparison being made here. A more fair comparison would have been, say, a preinstalled Ubuntu machine and a MacBook.

In overall and after installation I believe OS X is easier to use than Ubuntu.

hanzomon4
June 24th, 2009, 07:55 PM
For those arguing about pre-installed blah blah blah.. no.. I installed Ubuntu on my mac and everything works but the OS still craps out for strange reasons not related to hardware. And some of the apps just suck when compared to OSX.. Mail, Address book, and Contacts work better then Evolution. The interface is just better.

koshatnik
June 24th, 2009, 09:08 PM
Arent people sick of this argument? It seems that every other thread on these forums is about OSX or macbooks.

HappyFeet
June 24th, 2009, 10:22 PM
For those arguing about pre-installed blah blah blah.. no.. I installed Ubuntu on my mac and everything works but the OS still craps out for strange reasons not related to hardware.

MacOS is made for a Mac, not ubuntu. Ubuntu works perfectly for me with no glitches. How do you know it's not related to hardware when ubuntu has worked perfectly for me on many computers?

Arent people sick of this argument? It seems that every other thread on these forums is about OSX or macbooks.
Yes, it is getting tiresome. You would never catch me on a windows or mac forum extolling the virtues of linux. I know better. Why are the mac fanboys trying to convert people that don't want converting? They should be on the mac forums high fiving each other, and telling each other how great they are because of an operating system. :rolleyes:

Swarms
June 24th, 2009, 11:07 PM
MacOS is made for a Mac, not ubuntu. Ubuntu works perfectly for me with no glitches. How do you know it's not related to hardware when ubuntu has worked perfectly for me on many computers?

Yes, it is getting tiresome. You would never catch me on a windows or mac forum extolling the virtues of linux. I know better. Why are the mac fanboys trying to convert people that don't want converting? They should be on the mac forums high fiving each other, and telling each other how great they are because of an operating system. :rolleyes:

You are so beside the point.

NightwishFan
June 24th, 2009, 11:51 PM
You would be surprised how confusing a mouse with only one button is to some people. :D

handy
June 25th, 2009, 03:21 AM
You obviously have deep pockets and don't care to support vendors who pre-load linux. But that's OK, you are just one of many feeding the proprietary machine. Carry on.

You are feeling bitchy! :popcorn:

The inequitable sharing of wealth on out planet is certainly a major problem. The constant shots at people by those who often would like something themselves but can't currently afford it is very small minded, often coming from those that are quite young.

The knowledge acquired on an internet forum is of little consequence when it comes to understanding what a person truly cares about.

Being a fundamentalist anything, means that a person has a closed mind, which goes on to mean that they have shut doors on learning in certain areas.

We have no right to judge, infer, or attempt to push people to do what we do or think we would do in the same circumstances. Especially when we haven't been asked for suggestions.

Spare a thought for the mega-corps that make the hardware, the chips kings like Intel, nVidia, AMD & the many others, the owners of the internet backbone, & on it goes...

It is near impossible to escape supporting the proprietary machine, most especially in computing.

hanzomon4
June 25th, 2009, 03:22 AM
MacOS is made for a Mac, not ubuntu. Ubuntu works perfectly for me with no glitches. How do you know it's not related to hardware when ubuntu has worked perfectly for me on many computers?

Yes, it is getting tiresome. You would never catch me on a windows or mac forum extolling the virtues of linux. I know better. Why are the mac fanboys trying to convert people that don't want converting? They should be on the mac forums high fiving each other, and telling each other how great they are because of an operating system. :rolleyes:

I don't know.. something tells me that apps crashing and system lockups because I try to watch a dvd in Totem (only totem) has something to do with the software. Don't even get me started on my first install of jaunty when I had to re-configure evolution every time a crash took my system out.

No one is being a mac fanboy, I just get sick and tired of people harping on every imperfection related to Apple products while dismissing very serious problems with Ubuntu. Come on, I've been using Ubuntu since Breezy.. it's got it's problems, problems by the way that interfere with an otherwise great piece of OS.

These arguments only start because saying anything Apple is good causes the fanboys and girls to come out and condemn what's usually just an opinion. If this post was about something non-apple or windows, say some other distro/phone/toaster oven this kind of spew would not be happening.

handy
June 25th, 2009, 03:33 AM
@hanzomon4: I agree with your above post completely.

On totem; I often had troubles with Totem in Ubuntu, on various machines & versions of Ubuntu.

I use VLC, it is simple to install & set up & works fine.

These days on my iMac I use it in Leopard & Arch.

handy
June 25th, 2009, 03:47 AM
Yes, it is getting tiresome. You would never catch me on a windows or mac forum extolling the virtues of linux. I know better. Why are the mac fanboys trying to convert people that don't want converting? They should be on the mac forums high fiving each other, and telling each other how great they are because of an operating system. :rolleyes:

You really do have some strong bias against Apple & Mac users don't you?

You act as though misfits have arrived in your private club.

You make out like people aren't allowed to use anything but Linux, possibly only Ubuntu? If they do they aren't allowed to post in this, your forum.

If you don't like to see the words Apple or Mac or OS X or anything else connected with them in these forums, then I advise you to stop reading such threads or posts as soon as you see such words, & don't post in those threads, as you don't bring any joy, only narrow minded chauvinism.

More than likely, due to your input this thread will be closed.
Then others that may have had something to say on the subject will just open up another Mac thread & on it will go...

Do you feel pointless yet?

HappyFeet
June 25th, 2009, 03:53 AM
My opinion is as valid as yours. Please don't try to come across as high and mighty.

After reading some of the macisms here, I felt justified.

Why don't you take your own advice and not read what I have to say by putting me on ignore. You are not the police here.

And as far as me feeling pointless, no, I don't. I actually feel sorry for you. You talk a good game, but you aren't anything special. Now go away and put me on ignore.

handy
June 25th, 2009, 05:48 AM
Always a pleasure talking to you.

At least your feet are happy. :lolflag:

magmon
June 25th, 2009, 05:52 AM
Personally, I like to tweek my setup. When something doesnt work, I find pleasure in fixing it. "Just working" is horridly boring.